S3 | Session 17: Fear of the Goodness: Navigating Peace After Relationship Chaos
In this episode
As Julie Menanno's season with Rachel and Mike nears its end, this session confronts a quiet paradox: once a relationship finally stabilizes, peace itself can feel dangerous. Rachel, whose nervous system is wired for chaos, keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop and panics without a familiar negative cycle to fall into. Julie helps this anxious-avoidant couple sit in the unfamiliar calm, then guides Rachel toward her own vulnerability — naming how reliance has always equaled abandonment and how alone she felt leaving everything to move into Mike's world. The real work becomes learning to take up emotional space, put words to a need, and let Mike stay present while she does.
Key takeaways
- When your nervous system is accustomed to chaos, peace can feel threatening, so you brace for the other shoe to drop instead of enjoying stability.
- Small, intentional bids for connection — like Mike's subtle midweek check-in gesture — can create an outsized sense of safety and lightness.
- Anger can be a form of hope: it signals you still believe there is a path forward rather than giving up on the relationship.
- For someone whose reliance has repeatedly ended in abandonment, asking for help feels dangerous and triggers the urge to backpedal.
- Putting words to an unmet need, like 'I need your help with this,' is frightening but becomes the doorway to letting a partner soothe old wounds.
Keep going deeper
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S3 | Session 10: Why It Feels So Hard to Ask Your Partner for Help
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book Secure Love: Create a Relationship that Lasts a Lifetime. It is out now on paperback. Okay. So today we're picking right back up with
Rachel and Mike, and in our last episode, Rachel was, uh, you know, she experienced at the end of our session a very healthy righteous anger, which is...
Righteous anger is the kind of anger that says, "This is not right. This is not okay. What happened is not okay, and it's healthy for me to feel this and be angry, and I can talk about this anger without just being reactive and escalated." And this happened after Mike admitted to withholding the truth. But today, I'm going to use a clinical technique to pivot Rachel away from blaming Mike's behavior and guide her directly [00:01:00] into her own vulnerability around this.
And of course, that does not mean that Mike's behavior doesn't need to change, because we can't be safe and close in a relationship if there is active lying taking place. But we also need to help Rachel better sit with and be with and process her deeper feelings around the situation also. So we uncover a heartbreaking core belief in here, that is Rachel is really afraid to let Mike help her, because in her life, reliance has equaled abandonment.
And, you know, between a father who was absent and her late husband who tra tragically passed away, which, you know, is not an intential- intentional abandonment by him, but it is still an abandonment, being left alone. And then Rachel's nervous system has, has learned that the people that you lean on always disappear.
[00:02:00] So as she powerfully states in this session, "The pattern in my life is that anybody I should or could have been able to rely on has disappeared." So this episode is about what happens when we stop fighting about the lies and we start fighting for our right to take up emotional space. So before we start today's episode, we have a question from one of our Spotify listeners.
"Hey, Julie, recovering avoidant here. Can you give us an example of what validating the anxious partner's anger would look like in the moment? I am autistic with alexithymia and problems with interception. What I struggle with is how to validate my partner's anger without validating my own feelings of failure and shame.
How do I help her anger while still validating my own feelings?" Um, yeah, so that can sound like, like, let's take this example with Rachel here. She's very upset about, um, the lies that [00:03:00] she was told. Um, and so for Mike to validate that and that, that's going to sound like, "You know what? Your anger makes sense to me.
It makes absolute sense. Of course you're mad If you got lied to, anybody's mad when they're lied to, and it tells their nervous system you can't trust. You're not supposed to not be angry when that happens, and I'm right here, and I can hold that with you instead of trying to talk you out of it. So let's say it's, you know, something that's smaller.
Your partner asked you to put their clothes from the washer in the, into the dryer, and they were gonna be late for work, and you didn't, you forgot. And so now their clothes that they need for work are wet. Um, and they're, they're irritated, right? I mean, so a, a healthy response to that is, "You know what?
You have every right to be frustrated with me. I totally get it. You asked me to do something. [00:04:00] You know, of course I didn't not do it on purpose, but anybody's gonna be mad when they feel dropped and unheard, and it totally makes sense to me." It's just as simple as that. You know, you don't have to take responsibility that I did this on purpose and all of these, you know, things.
You just say, "Hey, I get it." You know, I'm gonna try better next time. But you're also saying, you know, how do I validate that when I get blocked, right? And that's, that's the thing. It's like, what I, what I just said sounds so easy until in the moment where you're having to deal with your own feelings of failure and shame, which is probably going to make it harder for you to lean in and validate the anger because it can seem like if I validate the anger, then I'm admitting all these bad things about myself.
And so first of all, that means your feelings of failure and shame need to be looked at and processed [00:05:00] and worked with, and there's grief there that needs to be dealt with so they're not there to begin with to block you from, you know, in these moments when your partner is needing you to lean into them.
Um, and then the second thing you need to do is in those moments, you know they're there. You're telling me from this question, so that's beautiful awareness that you know they're there. So that's the time to kind of step in and say, you know, slow it down and say, "Okay, this is one of those moments where, you know, my partner needs me to lean in, and I'm having all my own fears show up."
So how can I just sort of regulate my body right now, you know, put this stuff over to the side, I can deal with it later, and just allow myself to what I... This new phrase that I really love, love anyway. Loving is leaning into our partner's
feelings. It's, it's not, you know, taking responsibility or it doesn't mean they can just throw their anger at you in any way that they want.
You know, they have a responsibility to deliver that in a healthy way. [00:06:00] But loving anyway is basically saying, "I'm triggered, I'm scared, my stuff is getting tapped, but I'm willing right now to put that over here and lean into you and love you in spite of my own stuff." And it doesn't mean ignoring that stuff.
It just means waiting and, and bringing it in later when, you know, we can't do... Partners can't do all of their hurt, um, together at one time. We have to take turns, otherwise nobody ends up getting thoroughly heard and held and comforted. All right. Well, thank you so much for that great question.
Now let's go ahead and hop into today's session.
So there's only two things that are going to heal this anger, and one is change and repeated experiences of something new, so your body can learn to trust again. And the second thing that's going to heal it is detachment and lo- not having hope anymore and not having the [00:07:00] expectation anymore, and that's what we don't want to happen, right?
So the fact that your body still holds the anger is actually a sign that you still have hope and you're still invested here. I know it's down. I know it's, it's, you know, at a point where it's risky It's at risk of moving into complete detachment. So what's it like to hear me say the fact that it's there does mean that there is s still some hope here?
Your body still has investment.
Rachel: That's good.
Julie: So do you, do you think Mike can see your anger in that way? Or how do you think he usually just sees your anger?
Rachel: I think he usually just sees that I'm hurt and angry and disappointed. Julie: And it's a threat to him?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So I wanna shift that around, and of course, like I said, we have to have [00:08:00] change for this to work.
But I want you to say, "There is hope in my anger. My anger is my body's way of saying, maybe we can work this out. Maybe I, uh, you know, maybe there's some sort of... You know, my, my body is saying there's still hope that, for change." Because if there wasn't hope for change, the anger would die, and it's at risk of doing that.
Rachel: The anger is my body's way of saying that there's still hope that this can be healed and resolved and open to new behavior to build trust. But it is at risk
Julie: What that was was healthy assertion. When have you done that? Rachel: Maybe once [00:09:00] and it didn't go well, so I didn't do it again.
Julie: And how does it feel right now to, to really just speak your truth and be clear?
Rachel: It feels good
It's accurate.
Julie: Okay. It's aligned. It's aligned with your, your nervous system. Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: What were... You were going to say something else?
Rachel: Um, I mean, I think before it's just been seen as a threat. Like, you're just threatening me.
Julie: Yeah. The, the, you know, the threat is if we don't get the situation changed and we lose the relationship.
Yeah. The anger does signify that there does need to be some sort of change, but there also is some hope there. So Mike, I wanna know, you know, what's happening to you. Maybe you're used to knowing the anger is there, right? But [00:10:00] maybe not talking about it or just seeing it in these cycles. So does this feel different for you just to hear her, you know, be really, really direct and clear?
Mike: To start, I mean, it's great to hear and see that there's still hope, and that, that's the, that, that's the anger showing up. I mean, that's, that's something that's, you know, uh, definitely means a lot to me and it's not lost. It, it's... I, I never, you know, don't ever think about anger as hope, but it's helpful to see that, you know, in this, in this context and, um
Julie: When you say that means a lot to me, what happens, uh, you know, is that, does that mean your body is open right now instead of, you know, triggered to the degree that you used to be when the anger would show up?
Mike: It's, it's definitely a, it's like a door open for [00:11:00] just... It, it's like a, a door open to Knowing that there's a path forward through this and
Julie: And when you know there's a path forward, what does your body do?
Mike: There's a, there's a calming and openness. It's not a, it's not a, as a much of a trigger within me to, "Oh my gosh, this is unresolvable. We need to get out of this situation." Definitely more open and, you know, want to- So
Julie: I, yeah, I want you to tell her that. Like, "My body is open right now to your anger." Okay, Julie jumping in.
So just listen to the shift in Mike's voice here. So a few minutes ago, Rachel used healthy assertion to share her anger, not from a reactive place, but not only to share the anger, but to make more sense of it in an attachment context. "My anger means I still have hope for us. I'm still invested. I'm still [00:12:00] wanting to get back to connection with you."
So the moment that she framed her anger as hope for them instead of criticism or this is just, my anger is the end, I c- I'll never get over it, you know, my anger just means I hate you or whatever. The minute she was able to reframe that, not by losing the anger at all, but by making better sense of it from an attachment lens, Mike's entire nervous system calmed down.
"All right, let's go back in. It's not, it's not taking me into fear and dysregulation." I mean, there might be some of that there, but for the most part, you can hold this with her So I want you to tell her that
Mike: Yeah, just knowing that there's
Hope within the anger and it's, it's, it really is helpful to me to know that there's, [00:13:00] there's a lot there, but it's just, it really opens me up to know that
that's how the emotions are coming through. I want you to know that it's, yeah, it's
Julie: So I'm guessing that That feels good to you, Rachel, and it is very, very helpful for him to stay with you here
Rachel: Absolutely.
Julie: And I'm guessing that there's still this part that's saying that I still need change
Rachel: Yeah, it feels good. It feels calming. It's definitely the noticing the co regulation in it. And yes, there's an expectation that the behavior has to change for this to mean something forward.
Julie: Because what if it doesn't change?
What if, [00:14:00] you know, we finish this work and two months from now he gets triggered and he goes his, to his scared place, and the way he tries to manage that is by withholding the truth
What would that be like for you?
Rachel: And every time it happens, it's devastating. And obviously We wanna give each other grace to work through the longstanding protections and behaviors that we're used to utilizing. So it's You know, it, it's not just like a, "Oh, it happened again, I'm done," but understanding the healthy assertion of it's not acceptable, it's not okay You have some grace to improve, but I'm not just going to allow it to continue [00:15:00] unchanged.
Julie: Yeah. And if we look at that attachment need underneath the lying, the withholding, what is that unmet need that you can't live with anymore? Just, I know we've put words to it, but we need to do it again.
Rachel: Not being valued.
Julie: I want you to share that it's too painful for me to walk around this relationship not being able to trust that I'm valued.
Rachel: It's too painful for me to walk around this relationship not being valued Julie: And want you to shift that to not feeling valued.
Rachel: Not feeling valued
Julie: And I want you to say, "And lying takes me there, understandably
Rachel: And when you lie or omit information or stretch the truth, it [00:16:00] takes me there instantly
Julie: And I want you to add that word understandably
Anybody is gonna go there when there's a lot of lying
Rachel: And it's understandable that I go there
Julie: How does it feel to, to word that?
Rachel: Definitely feels like I'm speaking my truth
But it's scary at the same time.
Julie: What is it like to kind of frame it as this attachment need? Underneath the behavior. Does that make it feel more real for you? Does that make it harder to talk about? Because now [00:17:00] you're talking about you instead of what he's doing.
Rachel: I think it almost makes it a little bit harder to talk about because, I don't know if it's shame or whatever it is that prevents me from feeling like it's acceptable for me to stand my ground and speak my truth.
Julie: Yeah.
It's a lot harder to have to own your own experience. It's, it feels safer to stay up in what he's doing wrong.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And Mike, I know I'm not working with you a lot, but I'm gonna stay over here with her. Are you okay with that?
Mike: Yeah. No, that's, that's
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: just, yeah, super helpful to hear.
Julie: Yeah, 'cause I, I need to know what is so unsafe about owning your experience.
What's the fear in that?
Rachel: Good question. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is just I've- [00:18:00]
Probably not valued myself enough to demand the respect
Julie: Do you think you deserve to be valued? You know, here, here's the deal. It's easy to say lying is wrong Mm-hmm But if you don't know that you deserve to not have the lying so you get to feel valued, and you don't know you deserve that, it will be harder to go there
What if you don't deserve it and you talk about it? What i- what will happen if y- if it's true you don't really deserve it? And I know that doesn't define you, but that part is there. We know it's there because you have a hard time putting words to it.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Can you ask the question again, Julie?
Julie: Yeah. What happens if you really, if they're, if it's true, the worst thing is true, that you really [00:19:00] don't deserve for him to have to adjust his behavior so you get to feel valued What happens if you put words to that?
What, what might... What's the consequence of that? Like, what might he do or say or think or feel about you? Or, like you're too much?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: So it's gonna be too much to advocate for my attachment needs to be met here.
Rachel: That's what I have felt like, yeah.
Julie: Okay. So it's easier to just talk about his behavior and kind of put it on him, which it, there's truth to that, but we're missing this other piece. Mm-hmm And so I want you to tell him that, that It is easier for me to stay in you and, and
just keep kind of talking about it as what you're doing wrong because there's a part of me that maybe doesn't know that I deserve any different[00:20:00]
Rachel: Historically, it's been e
Julie: Sorry, Rachel, I wanna reword that. There's a part of... And again, I'm teaching you the words by giving them to you. There's a part of me that thinks it's too much to ask that of you, to help me feel valued.
Rachel: Yeah. There's a part of me that thinks it's too much to ask Help, have you helped me feel valued?
Julie: Is it like I, I'm supposed to give myself that wholly?
Rachel: Yeah, just that's exactly the thought in my head as I was saying it was like, "I should be able to do that myself."
Julie: And we want you to be able to do that yourself. And part of the reason it's hard to take it in from him is because you can't. But you still need it from him to feel safe and close to him
And we're gonna talk about the fact that you have a hard time [00:21:00] giving it to yourself. We're gonna get there, um, later in the work. But what happens is in the cycle, it just comes out as, well, he lies, he lies, he lies. It kinda gets, it gets stuck in describing the bad behavior. Mm-hmm.
And then what happens when you're not sharing that more vulnerable piece? Rachel: It's been a blind spot because I haven't known that's what's behind it
Julie: So I'm gonna guess that when we go over there and explore with him, what we're going to find is that It puts him in a position where he's
I'm afraid of lying because I don't wanna get in trouble versus I want to help my wife feel valuable[00:22:00]
Part of that is because you haven't been able to really be clear about that. I wanna help my wife not hurt. That's where we want it to come from So I want to go over here, Mike, and I want to know, is this... That's the empathy system, right? The empathy system is, it's not just I want to-- I'm afraid. It's, I want to care for her.
That feels really good. And does that open your empathy system up to hear more about the vulnerability under this?
Mike: Yeah. Um, it definitely does. I mean, yeah, it, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's hugely different to, to be in a... Come from an understanding of, and, and being able to support my wife rather than just a simple fear of, as you put it, you know, being in trouble or knowing this is going to send us in a tailspin
Julie: [00:23:00] Right.
It's, it's the difference between approaching this as avoiding failure and seeking success
I'm just giving you the roadmap to success. Because up until now, it's just been focused on avoiding failure
And we're gonna get to that. You know, we'll get there as to how that looks operationally. And so I'm gonna go back over here and do one, one more piece with you, Rachel, which is, you know, this isn't just, this isn't just in this relationship where you've l- needed... Like, you, you haven't felt valuable. It's not just here.
Right. It's every partnership you've been in And even in your family before that with your dad especially. Yep. What's it like to put some words there? That my whole [00:24:00] life I've not really been able to feel valuable to the people I needed to feel val- valuable from
Rachel: I've known that for a while
Julie: So you know it, but what happens in your body and your emotions when you say it, when you go there?
Rachel: It's sad Painful
Julie: So if the pain and sad is around not knowing your value to another person that you need- Mm-hmm ... what does that sad and pain need to heal? Just a reverse of the unmet need
Rachel: Acknowledgement that I am valuable
Julie: It's acknowledgement and it's behavior that communicates that Both. . It's not just words.
You've got... You've been getting the words You need more than the words Yeah And that's [00:25:00] what you've needed the whole time for that wound to heal
And so I want you to share that with him, that my whole life I've been needing to know my value So this hurt can heal
Rachel: My whole life I've been needing to know that I'm valuable so that I can heal
Julie: And I just want you to add one more piece to that, which is, "I need your help there. I need your help with this."
Rachel: I need your help with this
Julie: How does it feel to [00:26:00] put words to the need and, and get more clear about what you're needing to heal?
Rachel: Scary. It's almost like a, that feeling that I've talked about before where I just like wanna backpedal. It's like I wanna backpedal from the reliance on someone to help me with that. Like, as much as you want it, you don't wanna have to be reliant on it
Julie: Let's pause that for one second because it's so important. Um
Mike, I'm going to some really important places for her, and I don't want to stop. And unless you need for me to stop, Rachel, and then no problem. Um, but it, it seems to me, Mike, that you're here, that you're in it, that you're engaged.
Mike: Yeah. No, it's... [00:27:00] Yeah. No, definitely. It's just, it's super helpful to, you know, to hear.
Julie: Okay. So if I have your permission, I'm gonna stay here. But Rachel, I want your permission because I don't want to go further than what feels right for you. That's fine.
Rachel: I'm, I'm okay.
Julie: Okay. Okay. So you're, you're in the vulnerability, but you're not flooded or dysregulated by it?
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Okay. All right, then we'll go forward.
And just remember, there's value in this. It's like working out. It's hard, but there is healing that's happening right now, and we're getting clear. But you said something so, so important. You said it's scary to feel reliant on that
And we need to know more about that fear so we can create safety around it What happens if [00:28:00] you're reliant on someone else
Help you feel valuable
Rachel: I mean, the pattern in my life is that anybody I should or could have been able to rely on has disappeared.
Julie: So reliance equals abandonment.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense to me that your body doesn't trust reliance on... You don't trust the help from him And why do you think that?
How do you make sense of the abandonment A- around reliance and, and, and need for support
How do you make sense of the fact that you've been abandoned there over and over?
Rachel: Intellectually, it's somewhat [00:29:00] easy because
My dad had a mother who abandoned him. So it's not a great surprise that I have no relationship with him
And then obviously with losing a spouse, that
It's not like he intentionally did it, you know? But by him passing away, he's gone and I'm left it is a little- it, it is a little hard for me on that one to try to make sense of like, you know, he didn't intentionally leave, but the wound is
still a feeling of abandonment. And then I feel wrong for feeling that. Like, how can I feel abandoned when he [00:30:00] didn't intentionally leave me?
Julie: Or how can I feel abandoned when my dad didn't know how to show up? .
So it seems like in order for you to be able to really fully embrace and accept your pain around this, y- you have to have intention. You have to make it intentional. It's not enough just to hurt Or you don't deserve just to feel abandoned because you were abandoned, however we got there. The truth is this, nobody intentionally abandons anyone
They abandon because they don't know how to not abandon. They're trying to deal with their own stuff
So if we need intention, like I'm just deliberately trying to hurt you and go away and for [00:31:00] no other reason, then we never get to feel the pain around abandon. The word doesn't exist if it requires intention. But you have a lot of ways of denying yourself pain
And what that tells me is that all the people in your life who've needed to be there to support you and learn how to deal with your pain have denied your pain too, and so you learned to do that
Rachel: That's accurate.
Julie: Yeah. Growing up, I know, you know, you mentioned being bullied and, um, you know, what would've happened if you went to your mom and said, "Hey, this is going on. It's devastating. I'm scared." Like, what would the response have been?
Rachel: He's just joking.
Julie: It's just how he is. And in that message [00:32:00] is what about your pain?
Rachel: Doesn't matter.
Julie: Yeah. And you, you're, you need to let it go.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: It's not intentional, so you really shouldn't hurt over it. Rachel: Right.
Julie: You know, again, I mean, that, that's how your mom dealt with her own pain, obviously Which wasn't working for her either, but you, you needed her there to not deny your pain. To say, "Wow, that hurts." Yeah. Of course you're hurting
You know, later we'll figure out what to do with this, but right now let's just validate the hurt in this so you're not alone with it. But you had to learn to deny it. Okay, Julie here again. So we just found the origin of Rachel's difficulty asking for help. [00:33:00] When she was a little girl being bullied, the adults in her life just dismissed her pain by saying, "Oh, they're just joking."
You know, and it... Because it wasn't intentional abuse, she was just taught that she didn't have the right to be hurt by it. So she carried that exact script into her adulthood. You know, if, if her dad didn't mean to be absent or if Mike didn't mean to hurt her by lying, she just tells herself she has no right to be angry.
So we're completely rewriting that script today. Your pain is valid regardless of someone else's intentions. It's okay to hurt. All right, with that said, let's jump back into the session. How were you supposed to do it differently if you never were taught and also you were modeled it, and over and over you got messages that this is the way to do feelings?
How are you supposed to do it any other way? [00:34:00] wasn't possible So here you are learning, and that shows your resilience
And so what I wanna know here is how does this show up in the cycle Not really being able to fully own it, is that when you kind of stay stuck in that place of what he's doing wrong? 'Cause you don't really know that you deserve to talk about your pain
Rachel: Yeah. I don't really know that I deserve it. And when I have tried, it had been dismissed, so like why?
It, it-- Right? It's easier. It's ea- The l- Lying is wrong. That's pretty easy. And so it's just naturally easy to stay with [00:35:00] that when any other attempts to deal with the other side of the coin aren't fruitful
Julie: So, so your whole life you got messages, deny your feelings. It's not, you don't deserve them. It's not okay to own them.
And then you started telling yourself that, and then you actually try to do it, and you get messages from Mike, which again is unintentional, that denying your feelings. And so now you're getting messages from him that's the way to do this Of course you stop sharing them. And, and then what happens is, is then you're, you're still trying to, to bring attention to the problem, but you get stuck in the trigger and stuck in the behavior Right.
Part of that is because he hasn't been there to hold it, and part of that is because there's been [00:36:00] this belief in you too that buys into that lie
Rachel: Yeah. It's the evidence there, so why wouldn't I believe it?
Julie: Mm-hmm. And it g- I don't think this defines you. There's n- there's other parts of you that do know that your feelings deserve space. But we're just talking to that part that questions it
And I want you to share that with him, that there is a part of me that believes that
I'm supposed to just really the, the, the real thing I'm supposed to do here is just to deny it all and get over it. Wow. Or not share my pain around it or whatever it is, and that's when I stay stuck in just delivering this information as what you're getting wrong, what you're getting wrong, kind of from this place of blame.
And that doesn't take away from the fact that [00:37:00] it's wrong. It's just we're not balancing it out with other stuff for lots of good reasons
One of those reasons is because I don't... I'm not 100% convinced it's okay. So just go ahead and share that with him
Rachel: I'm not 100% convinced that it's okay to feel what I feel, and it makes it really easy to
Focus on and blame your behavior, and then I get stuck there Julie: And then what's the downside to that?
Inviting him in?
Rachel: Yeah. For sure.
That's led me to stop inviting you in
Julie: And then again, we don't, and, and he has a role in [00:38:00] this too, in the cycle, but again, it doesn't... When you're not going into the vulnerability and you don't really deserve fully that you get to, then it, it doesn't open his empathy system up. Part of his empathy system being opened up is his work
Part of it is, is your work and fully believing that you get to do that. It's acceptable. It's not too much to ask for help here
Rachel: Yeah, that's true. And there have been moments where I think I've vo voiced that a little bit. Like, it's, it's not too much for me to ask
Julie: Right. And, and that's the strong part, and I'm so glad that's there because we can build it up. But we're just talking to the part that does have a hard time believing it.
That's the part that needs [00:39:00] some support right now. Yeah. And so what happens in the cycle is There's stress and, you know, one of the ways that Mike has dealt with that stress and fear is he... Just to kinda, nothing else is working to get out of it, and so he just puts out these lies and withholding the truth, and that terrifies you because that leaves you not feeling valued in the relationship, not being able to trust.
Those are the attachment needs going unmet that you have to have met to feel safe and close to him. And it's scary when our attachment needs aren't met, because where it goes is to pain And so, you know, at first he was able to kind of talk you down and tell, give you the information, and I believe his heart was in it at the time.
I know it [00:40:00] was, right? And you're getting the information, but the information isn't over time aligning with the behavior
Rachel: That's right.
Julie: And so then that leaves you feeling hurt and alone, and then you've got all these messages about hurt and alone that you really shouldn't feel that way. And part of you buys into that And so it's hard, it's hard to talk about this part that says, "My needs aren't being met here.
I don't feel valued." Because one, you've shared it with him and, and hasn't, the cycle hasn't h- had it be met, and then two, there's a part of you that thinks I'm really kind of asking for too much b- by even going there. Because we know that because you were scared. So it's just felt safer to talk about what he's getting wrong.
But when that conversation gets stuck, then his empathy system doesn't open, and so what happens for him is, [00:41:00] is he just stays scared and Trying to run from failure and fear blocks empathy, but empathy is such a better motivator than fear And so you're giving him, by be- being vulnerable, you're giving him an opportunity to really open up And come in and help you and get success there Which is what's gonna help him feel really good and not have to lie.
And we also, uh, have his feelings to work on too. I, I just wanna keep putting it out there that it's not, he has self stuff there too, but And so what I'm doing is I'm just getting more words to the fears that you feel around vulnerability
So we can do the things that we need to do eventually to calm those fears so it feels safe[00:42:00]
So what have you been needing in life Who not believe that this vulnerable part of you that needs help is too much. What have you been needing? What did you h- need to hear from your mom when you were being bullied?
Rachel: That it's not okay and your feelings are acceptable and reasonable and okay to have
But they make sense.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Your nervous system has been needing that your whole life. That, that would have helped you feel safe, and so I want you to share that with Mike. My whole life I've been longing to get messages that my feelings aren't too much
Rachel: Yeah. My whole life I've been longing to get [00:43:00] messages that my feelings aren't too much
To feel safe
Julie: How does it feel to put words to that? Is it still scary or does it feel a little safer now?
Rachel: It feels good. It feels safer and it feels empowering
Julie: So aren't you glad we talked about that fear? Yeah. We're just getting clear about what that fear is needing
And Mike, does this, is this, um, what's going on for you? First, let's talk about what's happening in your nervous system
Mike: Yeah, I think it's, ag- it's kind of a common theme. I mean, the, the more that I'm kinda learning here and going through this, this exercise with Rachel, it's, it's just kind of calming to [00:44:00] hear the
You know, what, what the, I guess just
What she needs and what she's feeling that ultimately just kind of as a result of... And, and, you know, as you keep saying, it's definitely m- I, I get, I just kind of can't help but sit here and kind of recognize, you know, how the way that my-- The way that I have been and then the, what she needs is like, in these
instances it's like, you know, oil and water.
It's like it just, it just hasn't been able to, up until now it feels like it hasn't been able to, I haven't been able to see through to her, to, to Rachel, you know, and what she is feeling in these, in these times and why it is so, so, [00:45:00] so impactful
Julie: And so one thing... That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And one thing that I think would really help her right now is for her to know that when she talks about this part of her, it actually softens your body and opens you up and helps you feel closer, right? And that can help her because she has this narrative that it actually does the opposite.
And so I want you to share that with her right now, how your body is responding.
Mike: Yeah. You, you, you know, opening up and just being, you know, super vulnerable with your feelings and sharing that, it just, it really opens me up to, to just better understand you and just know where How you've been so impacted, and it's just, just really opens my heart to trying to [00:46:00] You know, recognizing where we've been and why this has been such a challenge
Julie: And, and I'm guessing that it, it motivates you to wanna lean in and help instead of just running away from The running away from hurting her, you actually wanna lean in and help
Mike: I do,
yeah
Julie: And not that you haven't
Mike: Yeah, and I do want her to know too that, you know, she is, you know, super valuable to me in this relationship, and I want her to feel valued.
Julie: All right, we'll get there. We'll get there.
Mike: I, yeah, it's just, it's, it's just there, Julie. So I, I just...
Julie: Yeah. I know, I know. It's okay. It's okay. It's just the way that, you know, you're not doing anything wrong. I, I want her to be able to [00:47:00] ask for that later, but I've got to get her at peace with needing it before she's going to feel safe a- asking for it directly.
Mike: Makes sense.
Julie: Yeah. It's nice, you know, outside of here, like, it's nice when we know our partner's needs and we can just show up and say, "Oh, just to let you know, like, you're valuable to me." But, um, we just have to get a little more clear so we know what to do outside of here, and I, I really need for her to have those words.
And then the other piece to it is, is that she's heard the word
Right? What's really going to convince her nervous system is new behavior
And sometimes, you know, some couples need the words more than they [00:48:00] need the behavior, and some couples need the behavior more than they need the words because some partners haven't been giving those words. But you, that part of your strength is that you have known how to give her those words, and that's really important.
And if you didn't, I would have to teach you how to do that
But we have this other piece. And a, and a lot of times too, those words were coming from fear. Fear on top of empathy instead of just empathy, if that makes sense. And when they come from fear on top of empathy, then the other person is getting the message something isn't so safe here, and it's harder for it to land and for her to take it in And I just wanna make sure you don't walk away from this session thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've been doing it all wrong," because there's so many things you've been doing right We just, in this space, we have to obviously work on the stuff that's not, not working [00:49:00] Yeah.
There's so much that both of you have been doing right, and, and that is evident by how far along you were when you ca- got to me
It's good to know for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't-- Please know that. Please just, you know
Know that I see that. You're not defined by this, the failings here. You're defined by the big picture, and both of you are incredible people, and incredible people for being here, and having the bravery to do this, and not giving up on love and yourselves. All right. Let's go ahead and, and bring it to a close there.
All right. Well, that brings us to the close of this beautiful session. We watched [00:50:00] Rachel be brave and step out from behind the safety of, you know, just kind of s- pointing out Mike's flaws and just sticking with that. Um, and, and she was able to kind of step into her own self more deeply, into this really scary light of her, how she views her own worth.
Her entire life she's been told that her feelings were too much, and it's just forced her to swallow her pain and handle everything on her own. But today, she was able to look Mike in the eye and really asserted and owned the emotional space that she deserves. You know? She gave herself permission. You know, and then with Mike, in- instead of him just retreating into his head or hiding behind excuses, he was able to stay perfectly present.
His nervous system was open, and he let her anger and her grief land. And this gave her nervous system the message that it's safe to rely [00:51:00] on someone, and they're not just going to disappear because you're too much. So this is the magic of emotionally focused therapy. We don't just stop the fighting.
We're actually rewiring the nervous system to accept love. All right. For this week's reflection, I want you to think about the phrase, "Reliance equals abandonment." Do you ever kind of secretly believe, or is there a part of you in
there that believes that if you lean too hard on your partner, then you're, you're just eventually going to get dropped?
So, this week I really challenge you to test that fear. Ask your partner for one small emotional reas- assurance that you would normally just try to handle by yourself, and see what happens when, you know, you give them the chance to
catch you. All right. Lastly, please help support the podcast by leaving us a five star rating on Spotify or, and Apple.
You know, it really helps us get the word out to couples out there who really need this, this kind of work and want to walk through this [00:52:00] process together in their relationship and heal. So as always, thank you so much to Rachel and Mike for their incredible vulnerability, and thank you all for listening.
Until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.
