Moving Towards a Positive Cycle & Understanding the Avoidant Partner

In this episode

Melissa and Drew open with a Fourth of July conflict that could have spiraled but instead became a positive cycle—a repair that left them closer. Julie Menanno then turns to the avoidant partner, helping Drew uncover the pressure and anxiety he's regulated alone since his teenage years. As he puts words to that pain, Melissa finds relief and a real path to co-regulation, softening their negative cycles.

Key takeaways

• A 'positive cycle' turns a rupture into bonding: Melissa's 'Hey, can we try this again?' reset a Fourth of July fight into connection rather than days of distance.
• Avoidant partners often process emotions more slowly, so EFT's second stage focuses on the avoidant partner first.
• Since at least his teenage years, Drew learned to regulate anxiety alone by 'getting it right' and keeping everything in order—a classic avoidant coping strategy.
• 'You don't deserve to be alone with that': naming the pain beneath the pressure lets a partner receive support instead of silently overriding feelings.
• When Melissa finally understands the 'why' behind Drew's distance, her fear is replaced by love and empathy, opening the door to genuine co-regulation.

Read the full transcript

Moving Towards a Positive Cycle & Understanding the Avoidant Partner — The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno Hi everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author of Secure Love, Julie Manano. And of course I'm joined with our lovely, brave, real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're jumping into episode six. As a recap, last week, Melissa and Drew started to talk a little more about the attachment wound they experienced a couple of years ago when their newborn son was in the hospital.

And I brought my mentor therapist, George Fowler, in to give us more insight into the situation. And George was able to help us see even more clearly the emotional and attachment dance between Melissa and Drew. where Melissa is asking for her needs to be met and not getting them met, while Drew is not asking for his needs to be met and not getting them met. And they're both playing roles in this stuckness.

So speaking of Drew, I thought I'd mention that we're moving into the second stage of the therapy. We're easing into it. That means that their negative cycles are stable enough that we can going into the deepest work. This stage is two parts.

The first part is called withdraw re-engagement. And this is where we spend the majority of our time with the more avoidant partner to help them learn to fully emotionally engage with themselves and with their partner. Then we have what's called a pursuer softening, where we help the more anxious partner also develop a healthier emotional relationship with self and their partner, including moving out of critical communication and toward vulnerability, real vulnerability. And we have to do this slowly when the couple is ready because they have to be able to work together in this stage, helping each other along and not going into negative cycles.

And it doesn't work if Melissa is dropping Drew's emotional engagement or Drew is not responding to Melissa's softened vulnerability. So in the second stage, we will be starting with Drew and that will be our main focus. If you do hear me moving over to Melissa for longer than it takes to keep her in a supportive role, that means there's been some negative cycle energy popping in. She has a block.

She's not feeling safe or whatever it is and she isn't able to entirely supportive. So I'm going to need to go to her and spend some time with her to better understand what's coming up for her and see if we can get her back to safety so she can be present with Drew as we do his deeper work. And just so you're prepared, in this phase of the work, I might spend a few sessions on one partner only. Not always.

If the situation calls for it, I might change that up a bit. But for now, you're going to see me spending the bulk of my time with Drew And that doesn't mean Drew is the bigger problem or is more important. It's just part of the work. And to add to that, avoidant partners process their emotions more slowly.

So sometimes this part takes longer for them just because they go slower with emotional work. So with that said, before we dive into this session today, there's something else I want to address, which is a common question about attachment styles. which is does everybody fall neatly into one category? And the short answer is no.

So decades of research on attachment has created the categories for a reason, because they do fit for enough people to make the categories make sense. And the vast majority of the couples I treat are anxious avoidant. And for those for whom these labels fit, can an enormously useful way to make sense of oneself and one's partner. But like any medical or psychological label, they won't fit for everyone.

And if that's you, you can absolutely still do this work. Just work with whatever feelings and behaviors you relate to, regardless of the vocabulary that I'm using. Even partners with secure attachment can benefit from this work. When it comes to disorganized attachment, that can often make the work more complicated because usually there's a trauma component to that and it's not always so straightforward.

But you're still going to see the anxious avoidant dances play out in the relationship. Another thing people ask about is the female male breakdown of attachment styles. And in my experience, 75 of the anxious partners I treat are female and 75 % of the avoidant partners I treat are male. That means 25 % of anxious are male and 25 % of avoidant are female.

And that's no small number. So anyway, while the numbers aren't as high, there are still plenty of anxious men and avoidant women. And just one more thing before we jump in. You've no doubt noticed that there are quite a few pauses in the sessions.

I've given it some consideration and I've chosen to leave them in because the pauses, these slowdown moments are where the real work is happening. Nobody grows in therapy when things move fast and are overly intellectual. High quality therapy is soft and slow, even for people who have loud, boisterous personalities outside of the therapy. And I want to keep this as real as possible.

If you hear a long pause, your audio is probably fine. It's just the work. And you can also use those long pauses to kind of tap into yourself and get in touch with your own feelings that might be coming up during the session. All right, well, let's get to Melissa and Drew for episode six.

Okay, well, let's jump in. So I wanted to start with this. Have you noticed any positive shifts? I think this past week was definitely a lot less of, I'll say a lot less negative cycle than the last several weeks.

I think for the most part, we were kind of quick to engage each other, quick to address and kind of work on validating how each other feels and it's kind of been the focus. Okay, so can we do something with that? you, so, you know, we talk about how these negative cycles play out. So I want to see how a positive one plays out.

So maybe if you could help me understand a moment where you can say, hey, that definitely could have gone into a negative cycle in the past. Because I want to understand what, I want us to all put words to what was new. What can we do more of? So I'll share one and it, I'll preface it by saying it starts out negative and then it gets super, super positive.

Beautiful. Those are even better. Yeah. This last week, 4th of July, lots of hosting, of family time.

So we had surprisingly, I feel like one of the biggest conflicts that we've had in a while, which shocked me because we've been making so much positive progress. And just one thing leading to another, we're disagreeing, tensions got really high. And I don't even know what it was about the moment, but we found ourselves yelling in front of the kids, which is very rare for us. We were just both very emotional, very frustrated, upset, I'm crying, trying to pause, trying to come back to it.

So it was just a really difficult moment. eventually I said, you know, even if all the horrible things we're saying come true, we're going to have to just come back to this. walking away from this. And then I said to Drew, hey, can we try this again?

And that was a new thing of actually accepting and saying, yes, let's try this again. I think previously we would have just let it go for a couple of days. And then, you know, we sat down and tried the conversation again. I think there was a little bit of back and forth.

You said, I said, but then we were able to recognize that and try some more authentic validation, which was very new for us. And then, you know, by the end of the conversation, I think the newest thing was for me, I could really feel when Drew softened up and I don't even so much remember what we said and I had a hard time even remembering what the disagreement was about but what I really remember was him just saying, hey, this is a tough moment. It makes sense that this is hard but I'm right here with you. We're going to figure this out.

Everything's going to be okay and I just remember that feeling being very, very new of, you Previously, one of us would have stormed off and gone upstairs or just let it go and fizzle out over the next few days and dive back into our routines. But that was like a very healing, like, wow, this is a lot of empathy and affection. And I don't even know if it was so much problem solving as like, you're here in this moment with me. that was incredibly positive.

It really felt like presence, not problem solving. Yeah. Right. Wow.

Okay. All right. You gave me a lot of really good layers there to dive into. But first, let me just check in with you, Drew.

How was pretty much the same experience for you? Yeah. I mean, I think between the two of us, it was just kind of recognition that, we've gone down this path before. It doesn't end well.

We're not better because of it. I think it was kind of a, let's pause and kind of reevaluate and kind of reset. we say, I think that was part of the conversation is, hey, let's just take a moment and reset and, you know, just, let's just reinforce with each other that we're here for one another and we got this. So yeah, I mean, that was definitely, definitely different.

Well, first of all, congratulations. That must feel really good to know that you made it through And then I'm guessing you felt close at the end of this, closer maybe even then before it started. Yeah, it gave you, not that we want to go into ruptures to feel closer, but it did give you an opportunity to get vulnerable with each other. So let me just kind of map this out a bit.

Melissa, you said the first thing is you were able to somehow take that step and say, hey, can we try this again? And so I'm curious, like, what helped you do that? What was new for you that you were able to do that, that you felt safer doing it or you had the words to do it? I think it was just, like Drew said, wanting to try something new.

And I've heard him use those words in the past of, let's reset, let's try this again. And those seem to be effective. So I thought, I don't want I guess to be truthful, sometimes in those moments, I'm not sure if it's, should we leave this and pause or should we dive into this? So I guess it was kind of an invitation like, hey, can we, like this feels like a big one.

Can we try this again? Just waiting to see maybe what his response would be. Okay. And so Drew, I'm curious then for you, what helped you be open to trying it again, staying in there, staying engaged?

a little bit has to do with kind of the work that we've been doing, kind of the commitment, kind of week to week to improve with each other and kind of try some new approaches to how we kind of address and kind of validate that conflict in terms of how each other feels and not try to avoid it and just to say like, just to say whenever that Melissa wants me to, whatever I think she wants me to say just to get out of the conversation. It's kind of like, well, let's pull this thread and kind of open up a little bit. So I think that's been a little different. So when I was kind of alluding to earlier that, this is kind of a new approach for us.

mean, it's a new approach for me to take that kind of course of action. So. And when you say course of action, what exactly do you mean? Which part of this?

to be able to kind of, you go ahead. just to try to understand where Melissa's coming from and just to kind of enable her to kind of open up and for me to kind of listen and kind of validate how she feels and empathize a bit and just kind of understand where she's coming from. And then, you know, obviously, you know, kind of express how I'm feeling in that moment. I think that's pretty much how that played out more or less.

OK, great. What do you think, you know, I'm always going to look at like, either we have new skills or we feel safe enough to put our new skills into practice or both. Right? And so you do have some new skills, Drew, something about being able to just kind of stay with her and validate her.

And Melissa, I'm assuming that that was also something you were able to do as you guys talked about it. But did something feel safer? Was there a safer in a way that maybe there was a little more hope or? Yeah, I'll speak for myself.

know, validation is, it sounds so simple, but it's really hard. think that a lot of times for the two of us, it comes off as like, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Like, they're there. Like, you're trying to, you know, be there for the other person.

But I think this was one of the first times where I really, it wasn't words. It wasn't, a solution or a thing. was really just Drew's presence of, know, he wasn't, his body wasn't distant from me. He wasn't trying to get out of the conversation.

He wasn't focused on anything else. He was just like, hey, this makes sense. Like I feel it too. It's hard.

I don't really know what to say other than I'm here with you and I love you. We're going to figure this out. And it was just... I think it's the safest feeling we've ever had in a conflict and it was less of an action and more of a feeling for the first time.

Wow. So I wonder, Drew, just thinking out loud here, if maybe before we started this work together, I wonder if you would have really seen that there could be value in that, in just sitting with someone's feelings and simply saying, hey, I think we're going to get through this. I'm right here. I've got you.

I think your go -to has always been, have to kind of find a way to fix it. What's it like to get some success with that other approach? I mean, it definitely feels like we're kind of tackling some of these issues more head on than kind of putting a bandaid on it for it just to kind of reappear another day. And yeah, mean, in terms of like the feeling of that feeling of like safeness, I don't know if it's, it's, that's the feeling that kind of resonates within me.

I think it's just the feeling of connection, like a deeper connection, I think, kind of working through that. So that connection that you've been feeling with Melissa as we've done this work and we've started to get more vulnerable with each other, that's actually helping you feel closer and then helping you feel closer is making it a lot easier to show up outside of Yeah, and guess, I mean, when you put it that way, then yeah, I mean, there's some safety around that, most definitely. Beautiful. And then I'll add this, and I don't know if this is true for you or Nabet, this is something I see that, you know, When you start getting success, when you start having successful experiences with just that moving away from kind of that fix it approach and moving into that validating approach.

And I've been setting up those experiences in here for success with that. And you do want to keep doing more of what works outside of here. So sometimes it's hard to connect the dots to how is what we're doing inside of here going to start showing up outside of here. Because it's not one of those it's not a therapy.

That's like really clearly out, you know throwing out skills It's doing more transformational work inside of here that starts to bleed out outside of here and of course there are some skills involved and Words involved, but do you both agree that you can sort of feel that? Transformation. Yeah, definitely Beautiful definitely a start. Yeah.

Okay. Well, let's just keep building on that. We're We're not ready to be done, don't worry. I'm sure now we can go into something that maybe didn't work so well and kind of explore and figure out what happened with that.

So did anything not go so well or where would you like to go today? Okay, me, Julie jumping in here. So before I start to go into the work, I just want to say that the experience they're describing is what we call a positive cycle where it starts with a triggering event. And it not only doesn't go into a negative cycle where everyone's attachment needs go unmet, but it actually ends with an experience of met attachment needs.

Melissa is feeling heard and responded to. Drew is feeling like he can have some success here and reach her. So it's more than just we didn't fight, but actually we just turned what could have been a bad thing into an opportunity to bond. And for Melissa and Drew, this is a great sign that negative cycles are stabilizing and we're knocking on the door of our next stage of the therapy.

And for you listeners, I hope you'll really begin to see that when things don't go well and start to get off track, it can be an enormous opportunity to reverse the trend and instead use the moment to co-regulate and reach each other and feel like a team. and say, hey, let's reset here. Let's try this in a new way. OK, so let's go back in.

I guess I'll speak up. I I still think that there's some like reoccurrence of just irritability where we're somewhat short with each other. I mean, that's definitely something that keeps rearing back up time and time again. And it may be quick, but I mean, it's still pretty sharp.

mean, that even happened yesterday evening as, you know, working on bedtime and getting the kids to kind of settle a bit. know, one of us will say something and I don't know if it's meant to be perceived in a particular way, but you know, comes across as kind of sharp and I mean that definitely continues to happen a little bit. I mean, like I said, it just happened yesterday evening in fact. And so Both of you kind of got to a place where you were being snappy with each other.

How did this start? It just kind of started, I think, I mean, you know, throughout the day yesterday, you know, was pretty typical, it's, you know, Sunday, so no work and then... the kids for the morning, put them down for a nap, they wake up. mean, it's a pretty typical day, but then throughout it's kind of like, I don't think Mel and I really connected a lot yesterday just in terms of even when the kids were napping.

I was kind of in the garage doing some things. She was in the house. The kids wake up. think there was kind of this expectation that, we're going to get the kids And then I think communication kind of lacked just in terms of like, are you going to help?

You know, are they're going to come out and play? You know, we just didn't communicate. And I think that that's kind of what started it. And then by the time, you know, they play for a few hours, you're trying to prep dinner.

And again, it's kind of like we assume in the other that one of us is like taking responsibility to like watch the kids instead of doing it together. And then the other like one of us will go kind of do do something around, you know the house and You know just that that's how it kind of builds throughout the day I don't know that may hope that's making sense. But then by the time, you know bedtime comes around it's like, you know, we start having a conversation around like Hey, are you you happy today? You know, I've really tried to do so much and to take take this dress away from you and you know Do you realize how much I've done as a result?

Like, are you grateful? And so that kind of leads in, never really leads into a good place, but that tends to come up quite a bit. I don't know if you have anything to add to that. I mean, that's...

Well, let me ask you something, Drew. What's happening right now for you just to put words to this? Other than how I feel about fumbling over the day and fumbling over the words. Well, that's important.

What you're saying is like there is a part of me that's a little bit worried about fumbling over the words. I think there's like, think Melissa tries so hard to, you know, take care of the kids, get them dressed, you know, make sure their lunch is ready, you know, and I may be out like doing yard work or cleaning up. And like I said, yesterday I was in the garage and I feel she sometimes feels that if she doesn't do this, like I wouldn't, like I'm not going to be happy. But you know, I'm very happy.

I'm just, you know, trying to work around the house, whatever, whatever it may be, you know, yard work or picking it, picking up around, you know, the house or within the garage. I tend to feel like a little bit of insecurity kind of from her that, you I'm not happy, but in fact I am. And I think that leads to some frustration. Okay.

So notice that, you know, I ask you to help me understand, you know, about you being worried about fumbling over your words. And then you will start kind of telling me about Melissa. Tell me about what's happening for you that, you something important about getting these, something is very important to you about getting these words right, just right here and now. Like what happens if you don't get the words right?

Well, I just don't want to convey the wrong kind of the wrong message is all. Trying to think clearly. So what happens then, you you're choosing your words carefully, right? So you can convey the right message to Melissa, right?

And what happens if you Generally, it'll lead to a misunderstanding, which generally leads into an argument of some sort. then take some time to recover from that, I suppose. OK. So you're noticing even right here and now that you're wanting to make sure that you get it right.

If I misstep, if I say the wrong word, then that might take us down that bad road. And where does this sit in your body, truly just right here and now as are being so careful. Definitely a feeling of anxiousness. Head pressure.

Okay. More than anything else. And so that anxiousness is I might say the wrong thing, I might get the words wrong, I might somehow send over a message to her that doesn't sit well with her, doesn't land well with her. Very much.

Yeah. And then again, where your body and brain go is that that's going to make her mad or put us in a bad spot, like what might happen? Yeah, I think it's really putting us in a bad spot. And then, you know, I think a big A big part of it too is...

You know, don't want I guess more or less just extend this out and kind of labor the issue when there's, I guess I don't feel like there's much there, but saying the wrong thing can, like I said, convey the wrong message. Okay, so you don't want to stretch this out, but at the same time, you still have this part of you that is tensed up inside, this pressure in your head that is saying, be careful, make sure the words are right. And so help me again understand, like, let's find that in your body. This is a place that you don't, you you're used to just overwriting it.

Try to get the words right, try to have, you know, if this feeling comes up in you, your way of regulating it is somehow just ignore it, override it. Problem solved, so I don't have to go there. You're not used to putting words to this place, and this is a really important place of you. It's important for you to get to know this place.

And it's alive right here and now, so just tell me again, like, where is this inside of you? Okay, so Julie jumping in here. I say this one phrase a lot, which you don't deserve to be alone with that. And I didn't say it here specifically, but I think it's relevant to say here.

I say a lot, you don't deserve to be alone with that because we don't. And you don't deserve to be alone with your feelings. Humans aren't meant to be alone with our feelings. When people are alone with their feelings, they either externalize them in negative ways or internalize them in negative ways and Both of these strategies might be useful in some situations, but they both also have a downside if that's really all one is doing to regulate their feelings.

They damage individuals mentally, emotionally, physically, and relationally. It's damaging to just always be alone with this stuff. And some people believe things like, you know, we're supposed to deal with our feelings on our own. Yes, as adults, we do need to know how to deal with our feelings on our own in moments, but one part of learning to deal with them is getting help with them.

And that doesn't mean getting emotional support every time you feel that right then and there. Sometimes we can't, and sometimes we do need to self-regulate and self-soothe. Those are very important. things for adults to be good at, but that needs to be balanced out with plenty of moments of emotional support from the people in our lives, like validation, comfort, a safe place to share without judgment or having it turned on you or any number of other unsupportive responses that cause people to protest or shut down.

So I'm teaching Melissa and Drew how to do this. And Drew has believed his entire life that he's supposed to just deal with all of this on his own. And so when I say things like, you don't deserve to be alone with this or you deserve support or just by continuing to take him into his feelings. So he isn't alone with them in the moment and giving him the experience of not deserving to be alone with What I'm doing is just planting seeds in him that will eventually begin to help him take ownership of his own emotional needs, which will benefit his life in every way possible.

So for those of you listening who might not even yet realize that you have emotional needs, you do. We all do. And there's so much value in learning how to get support. It's not just learning how to meet your partner's emotional needs.

It's equally about them helping you. Everyone wins in a mutually emotionally supportive environment. Yeah, mean, it's definitely tension. It just kind of feels like pressure in my head kind of locks me up a little And then as I kind of focus in on you and have a conversation about this, does that add to it?

Just having me question you about it. Yes, definitely. Right, because then you have to worry about getting the answers wrong for me. And then what happens?

Well, then I just feel as though I misrepresent myself a bit. Okay. That never feels good. you have a fear that you'll present yourself in the wrong way.

Yeah, I definitely think that's definitely an insecurity of mine. And if you do? Then I'm going to try to correct it, I suppose. What I want to know is, what's the bad thing that's going to happen if you present yourself in the wrong way?

We know the bad thing that's going to happen if you send an unclear message to Melissa or something that might trigger her, she might get upset and you guys go to this cycle where she's just upset with you. And then with me, it's just, you know, if I say the wrong thing and present myself in the wrong way, but like, what's so bad about that that your body actually goes into a place of fear and anxiety? I don't want you to have to live with this fear and anxiety. It sounds awful.

I feel it in my body. Just talking with you, I can feel it. And I don't think you deserve to be alone with that. How long have you walked around?

Always trying to make sure you don't mess up. Always trying to make sure you just get everything right. I would definitely say going into teenage years, it definitely kind of set Yeah. What comes up for you just to explore this and put some words to I mean, it's self -reflection and validation.

just using my own self, you know, there was a shift when you said going into my teenage years, there was a shift right before that where I started to just feel really sad. I'm wondering if that came up for you Yeah, maybe a little. Mm -hmm. Okay.

But what you really notice is more of just the pressure around it, that there's just been a lot of pressure in you for a long time since at least a teenager. where you've been trying to regulate that pressure by getting it right, not messing up. And in some parts of life, that can serve you really well, right? Yeah, given the situation, sometimes it can serve you well.

Sometimes it can serve you well. Sometimes it can be kind of a motivator to not, to do your job well or whatever, At other times, it's probably kind of a burden to walk around with Yeah. Or heavy. Maybe burden's not the right word.

Maybe heavy or... Yeah. mean, I think other people notice it pretty quickly. What do you mean?

What do they notice? just kind of, you know, everyone's always kind saying things like... You know, like just need to relax or, you know, just let it go. Don't worry about it.

you know, whether it's, cause I think it's more, it's just a way that I live, I guess, like in just in terms of, you know, kind of the organization, this is best way I can put it, you know, just the kind of the friendliness, the organization Right, and that does help to some degree, right? That's how you've learned to regulate it. And I'm not saying there's necessarily bad about that, right? It's just, that's how you've learned to regulate it, is to keep everything in order.

And so when you're in here being really careful with your words, that's your way of keeping everything in order. But the problem with it is then we miss that part of you that could use some help, that pressure. Right? And so who has ever helped you talk about that feeling, put words to that feeling?

that it's a painful feeling, you know, there's no way around that. Has anyone ever helped you there? No. Yeah.

And have you ever asked for anyone to help you I'm never asked. So how are you supposed to know how to help Melissa with her anxiety if you've never had anyone help you with yours and never really learned to help yourself in that place other than just trying to avoid going there to begin Do you see what I'm saying here? I do. Yeah.

Your strategy has always been from at some point in your life, you you started developing this feeling and you didn't have anybody there, you know, for whatever reason. No, sometimes the best of parents aren't always super emotionally savvy or available, but for whatever reason, you just had to learn to deal with that feeling in your body. And thank God you learned how to deal with it in a way that's really helped you in life. But there are still these moments when you can't escape it.

What's that like when you can't escape leads to frustration. Sometimes when I can't regulate, I suppose you know, comes out as, you know, me being short, sharp comments to Melissa, maybe avoidance of, you know, family time until I can kind of get ahold of myself. Right, so your first strategy here is like, if I can just keep everything right and in order, then I don't have to go there. But then sometimes that fails, especially when you have little kids and a job and all these responsibilities in life.

And so then it fails, and then you feel really frustrated because you can't make it go away. And that's when these other strategies come in where you might get snappy or you might, you know, like at the baseball game, just have to get out of there and go take a breather. But like none of those options involved really, you know, putting words to this place and getting some support with And then again, you get in a situation and this is not your fault at all, right? But then you get in a situation where, know, Melissa has her anxiety and she's needing some support.

How could you possibly know how to support her in that? Or just learning how because you've never known how to really even put words to your own pain. You're just used to kind of trying to help her with hers in the same way you help you with yours, right? What's coming up as we just get some more clarity around this?

I think, I think you're think it's like a realization a bit. Just a realization that. I've never had help in that arena. I've never known how to ask for it.

So it's just something I've always just kind of carried with What do you think it would be like if your daughter was carrying this around? If she was sitting in her room with this pressure inside of her and thinking, I've got to get it right. I've got to be so perfect to keep this kind of yucky, painful feeling out of me. What would that be like?

What's it like to think about that? That's terrible. I just want her to be a kid. I have to worry about anything except or, you know, enjoying spending time with your family and friends and playing using your imagination.

And so if you knew that she was sitting there feeling that way and you wanted to help her get back on track so she could just go back into being a kid, like what would you say to That is the question. Would you try to help her? Almost definitely. I I'd want to dive in and understand kind of the what and the why.

give her some comfort. yeah, definitely give her comfort, reassure And who did that for Yeah, many. Not that I can recall. What comes up just to put words to that?

Yeah, I mean, it's a feeling of emptiness a bit. Let's just kind of linger in that empty. Just kind of sit with that, give it some space. This emptiness doesn't get a lot of space, does it?

No, it's not necessarily something I have ever focused on. You're used to just wanting to not go there because it's a painful place. So maybe it's time to let Melissa in on some of this. just to tell her that underneath pressure and anxiety that you walk around with a lot of the time.

This is painful empty place. that you've had to learn to deal with on your I the root of a lot of my anxiety. comes from a place where I've had to learn how to regulate it on my own. So it's really all I've ever been able to do.

Definitely been hard to manage. That's several points in my life. And it definitely ebbs and flows as well. So it's just very difficult for me to kind of manage How is it right now to just make some space for it and put some words to it and not have to be so alone with it?

It's difficult and I face that truth. but it does feel little relieving to be able to share that with When you say relieving, like, could you help me understand maybe what happened to that pressure that we started out Does it feel lessened? I feel much more vulnerable than I did going into the conversation. Okay.

But expressing that definitely relieves a little bit of the tension. Okay. That vulnerability. Yeah, we're starting to touch into some of that kind of pain that is underneath all that pressure.

And that's a new kind of hard. But I appreciate your bravery and willing to be vulnerable. It's commendable that you're able to do that because you haven't done that for so long because it hasn't ever been something that's been an option for you. And Melissa, how is it for you just to learn a little more about him, see more of him?

I think that it's very relieving for me too. And it's very connecting. I think it just, it makes a lot of sense and it makes me feel a lot of love and empathy and it's just very, very connecting. very helpful.

Can you help me understand like what's happening inside of your body that is different for you right I think a lot of When there is shortness or sharpness, there tends to be an element of fear that immediately goes up because you just don't know why. And when you ask and ask and ask, well, why, what's going on, what's going on? And you can't get anywhere, then your mind just subconsciously starts to play out stories. But to have a why is very peaceful and it makes me feel connected to you and it's very relieving like that makes a lot of sense and it's It's very Like there's no fear.

There's no worry. There's no anxiety. It's just a lot of like You want to be there for your teammate? There's somebody that you love that you want to take care of and you know, you can dive into that you can get on board with that because there's something very real there that makes a lot of sense and You can join in with that and you don't have to wonder and worry and try to figure it out.

just, you have something to latch onto. So that's, you know, the co-regulation here that we're looking You know, what I think I hear you saying, Melissa, and you can correct me if I'm not getting it exactly right, but you know, you feel that anxiety from him. Your body, even when it's around, you know, outside of here or inside of here, your body feels it and it's scary for you. And when you're able to see him and see that little boy that had to develop that anxiety for whatever reason, we can understand more about that and the way you've had to learn to kind of keep everything safe around you to not have to go to that painful empty place underneath that pressure.

has worked and it hasn't worked in some ways and it's worked in some ways, but what we haven't done, what you haven't ever had is help there. And you've never even known how to ask for help there. And when you're able to get really vulnerable and put some words to it and, your heart just melts. And it's not just that the fear goes away, but it's actually that fear gets replaced by love and empathy.

Yeah. and isn't that better than the alternatives? Yeah. Okay.

Well, I think we can call that a session. How are you doing, Drew? I'm doing all right. I think never thought that we'd go there in this session, but I'm grateful that we did.

Hard truths to face sometimes. Do you think you would be willing to, you know, in these moments when this flares up inside of you And maybe you have that urge to, I don't know what, you know, maybe go into kind of obsessing over the house or, and I don't want to say that, you know, there's anything wrong with keeping a neat orderly home. You know, I'm not saying that right. When it crosses this line into actually causing you, you know, all this pain, I think that's where we want to kind of balance it out.

But do you think, you know, when you notice it coming before it necessarily goes into this negative cycle. You might be able to just put some more words to it and reach out to Melissa for some help. Just maybe something as simple as, this is one of those moments where that pressure is really building up inside of me. Can I just, like, what would help you in that moment?

Just a hug or just for her to say, hey, I get it or? Yeah, I mean, I think I'll have work on my communication with her when those feelings kind That rear up, I suppose, and... Yeah, I don't know. mean, I've never really tackled it based on kind of our conversation today.

So. OK, Julie jumping in. So I put the cart before the horse here by asking Drew to directly ask and reach for help from Melissa with his vulnerability in moments at home when things aren't going well. And his very hesitant kind of nervous response was that way.

for a reason. He's just getting to know about himself in these new ways. And the last thing I need to do is ask him to go home and speak in a language he's just learning. We need to go slow with this, which is why we're going to be continuing this work with Drew as we move into our next phase of the work and then Melissa after that, because Melissa, like all anxious partners, has her own vulnerability blocks.

And on top of learning more, about their own blocks, they also need to learn how to be responsive to each other's vulnerability in the healthiest way possible. So they feel successful and want to do more of it. And they are starting to do this at home. They are getting more vulnerable, but there are layers to this work and we'll just keep uncovering more layers and help them communicate from these deeper places with safety so they can use what we find.

to co-regulate in these hard moments and help each other instead of fighting with each other. And not just to feel closer and more resilient in general, but to more easily work through their disagreements. So let's go back in as I try to take some pressure off Drew for now and give both of them something they can work with at home, which is more appropriate to where they are in the therapy. Okay, well, no pressure and I'm actually.

to be honest with you, asking you to do something right now that technically we wouldn't really get to until later in the work is kind of how to reach out for help in moments. And you might not be ready to do that. You're just now kind of getting familiarized with this place inside of yourself. So maybe your work right now is how we have been just being aware of that negative cycle.

So this is just a new layer of awareness for you that, when that pressure in my body starts to build up, that's first of How can I just sort of check in and say, what is happening for me physically? Because that's where, that's how we get into it, right? That's the doorway in, is the pressure. And Melissa, on your end, if you see it, or your body starts to feel it, that might be a moment where you can check in with him.

Now that he's able to put some more words to it, it might be easier to reach him. I know you haven't had a lot of success with checking in with him in the past. And maybe this will give you guys a little bit more clarity around coming together. You're right.

Well, thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you. All right.

Well, that brings us to the end of the session. And as a recap today, we really helped Drew better understand that he learned to push away his emotions and push them underground as a coping strategy early in life. And that's what he's been doing to regulate himself. And of course, not only does he not know how to really support his own emotional self by acknowledging his feelings and feeling them and naming them and self -validating and sharing his feelings and all the things that create emotional health within oneself and then the problem is compounded when he doesn't know how to help Melissa with her feelings because his own emotional world is so foreign to him.

And that's what we're here fixing. And I'm so glad that you're witnessing this journey with us. And for those of you trying to do this work at home, my book Secure Love by Julie Manano is a great resource. I actually created this podcast to parallel the self -help couples work I present.

and Secure Love. And as usual, I also have a homework activity on my website, thesecurerelationship.com, which corresponds to this episode. And that concludes another episode of the Secure Love podcast. If you have the time, please give a five-star rating and review on Apple and Spotify podcasts that helps us get the word out to other couples in need.

And of course, thank you to Melissa and Drew for their bravery and vulnerability. And I know we're all really rooting for them. All right, we'll take care all see you next week.

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