Unraveling the Roots of the Negative Cycle Pt. 2

In this episode

Drew offers a heartfelt apology for not showing up during their son's hospitalization, and Melissa feels real relief. But Julie Menanno, joined by guest therapist George Faller, shows why this apology is incomplete repair: as the avoidant partner, Drew is still cut off from his own grief and fear of loss. The negative cycle hijacks the healing, and Julie coaches both partners to stay with vulnerability instead of jumping to problem-solving.

Key takeaways

• A sincere apology can be touching and necessary yet still be incomplete repair when it skips over the apologizer's own vulnerable experience.
• As the avoidant partner, Drew numbs his fears—including grief over losing his father—and defaults to problem-solving, which blocks him from meeting Melissa's fears.
• Guest therapist George Faller reframes Drew's struggle: he can't give Melissa emotional support he was never taught to receive himself.
• Melissa's 'yellow light brain' lets her take Drew's words in, but mistrust flares and sends her into protest, pulling them back into the cycle.
• Julie follows the cycle's lead, shifting to lighter negative-cycle work and teaching both partners to stay with each other's vulnerability one at a time.

Read the full transcript

Unraveling the Roots of the Negative Cycle Pt. 2 — The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (featuring guest therapist George Faller) Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author, Julie Menanno. And of course, I'm joined with our lovely, brave, real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're going to dive into part two of episode five.

So as a recap of last week, which was the first half of episode We began to start talking about the attachment wound shared between Melissa and Drew that goes back a couple of years when their newborn son was in the hospital for open heart surgery. And so we started last week to open up the conversation about this wound. And Melissa was able to share with Drew that this wound she's carrying from this period of time when their son was hospitalized, when she felt so emotionally abandoned that this wound still comes alive. It's still there.

It shows up any time she senses Drew's distance. These moments like when he comes home from work and he's tired and whoosh, her nervous system goes right back to the darkest place when she felt so alone. And all of the sudden, it's not about the evening. It's about the wound and the mistrust she felt and the fear of ever going back there.

And so now as we move into the second part of this session, we're going to pick up with Drew because we know about what was happening with Melissa. She was aware of her need for help and she was asking for that help and not getting it. But what was going on with Drew? What was getting in his way of emotional engagement?

Was he just, you know, checked out because he didn't care or didn't have time for it or just thought Melissa was overreacting? It can certainly be easy to make sense of it in that way, but rarely do I see that be the case. Usually there's a lot more going on that nobody has known how to talk about. And so we're going to start doing that today, talking about it all in a very new way, in a healing way.

And that doesn't mean that it's going to be resolved today, that these kinds of conversations, this kind of healing takes multiple rounds, but We are starting that process. Now, if you recall, I mentioned that we have to be really careful with these conversations about attachment wounds, because if couples start going into negative cycles while they're trying to reach each other and heal, that can complicate the situation. And in this session, we're going to see a bit of that happen. We start to talk about the wound and Drew kind of on his own is going to apologize to Melissa.

And when you listen to it, you're going to feel touched. You're going to feel hope. And that's what can be so tricky about apologies. They're touching.

They're hopeful. And they're certainly necessary. At the same time, apologies can sometimes create an opportunity to leave a lot left unsaid. And for that reason, we therapists can't just let apologies sort of run rampant because there are times when they aren't actually what's needed or they're not what's needed just yet.

And there are times when they can actually not be so helpful at all. So apologies really need to be a part of deeper emotional work instead of a stand in for Okay, and so with all that said, circling back to this session. So after recording this session, I felt a little discombobulated, like something was getting away from me. And looking back now, I can see it all very clearly.

But at the time I felt thrown off. And so like any good therapist does when they feel thrown off, I went straight to get some supervision, meaning help from a therapist who I trust and who is much more experienced than I am. So today we have a guest therapist joining us. And guys, this isn't just a guest.

This is my mentor, my teacher, the man who has taught me nearly everything I know about being good at this work. And his name is George Faller. So after the session, when, like I said, I felt a little discombobulated, I reached out to George and we watched the session together and processed it and so he's going to join me in commentary later. But for now, let me tell you a little about George.

Well, to start, he is a former 9-11 firefighter who was involved in the rescue mission in the towers. And interestingly enough, at the time of the tragedy, he happened to be in grad school working toward becoming a therapist. And because of the circumstances, Sue Johnson, the founder of EFT, which is the type of therapy we're doing here with Melissa and Drew, flew to New York to personally train him. And George is now a highly sought after EFT trainer who travels all over the world training therapists.

And he has a podcast of his own with sex therapist and EFT therapist, Laurie Watson, called For Play Radio. So definitely check that out if you're interested in sex therapy from an attachment perspective. Without further ado, let me introduce you to George. Hello, everyone.

Excited to be here. I'm George Faller. I used to run into burning buildings in the Bronx. Now I run into the fires of distressed relationships.

You know, I really believe we're in this mess together. I get the good fortune of understanding a model that can help couples communicate better. Then I go home and screw it up with my wife and my kids and I love a message like this, what Julie's doing, and just kind of get the word out there. think more people are able to talk about this stuff and realize we're all in this together, the more progress we're going to make.

And I especially want to give a shout out to the men out there because, you know, we get all this great training to turn off our feelings and take care of business under stress and pressure, and that's a great thing, and we don't want that to change. But we don't get that much help learning how to lower those walls and kind of access these more vulnerable places. And that too is super important for successful relationships. So again, that's our chance to start getting better, moving in needle.

And I'm excited to join you all. Okay. So with that, let's dive into our session. And as we walk through this, I'm going to bring George in and have him give us a lot more insight into what's happening here with Drew.

And so let me just check in with you, Drew, What is coming up right now, you know, other than her sharing with you that we, you we'd like to get past that, like, is there anything else coming up around when you hear her talking about the past? What's that like? Is that like, you remember it differently or? No, I mean, I think we both responded to something that felt very surreal.

Nobody ever expects that to happen to someone that you love, especially a child. So, you know, in the moment, it's why you're trying to empathize. It's also there's so many decisions that need to be made and there's so much awareness and, you know, responsibility for how we kind of manage that whole kind of situation with him. And I would say that, yeah, at the time it was definitely a struggle to come together just because, you know, we both responded in different ways.

That kind of makes sense. And I think, you know, how Melissa felt and wanting to make sure that we were making decisions to give him the best care is no different than what I wanted. I think it's just our communication styles and how we connected. I don't think we were kind of beating the same drum per se.

I think we were doing our best to be there for each other. But yeah, it was a tough time. So for you, what you're saying is I was doing my best to show up in I was doing my best to handle the situation in the best way I knew how. And so what is that like then to sit here and hear Melissa saying, well, yeah, I I feel really dropped by you.

What does that bring Does that feel like unfair? Does it feel accurate? Just looking for your experience? I mean, I think it's pretty accurate.

You know, for whatever reason, we just weren't able to kind of communicate clearly in the moment. And I think that's kind of looking know, kind of the lesson learned there. But, you know, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I would have done it any different.

Other than hearing her now, you know, just making sure that I'm checking in much more with her, asking her kind of how she feels about. you know, the day or the decision or kind of what a next step looks like and instead of, you know, disregarding it and kind of trying to move on and, you know, focus on other things. Okay. And is there just me exploring around here Is there anything, any disappointments that you have about the way maybe she was showing up in those times?

Like, do you carry anything here? I don't necessarily think so. That's not where my, that's not any thoughts that are running through my head. just in terms you know, how she showed up.

mean, it's, you know, it's her three, three and a half month old, you know, son that's getting ready to have open heart surgery. So I think in those moments, especially as a mother, it's more than anyone should have to kind of process and handle. So I think in terms kind of again going back it's just making sure I'm there and you know doing my best you know whether the perception is you know I was closed off or you know not not there it's definitely not not what I was trying to convey at the time. Okay so you're you're we all kind of have you two kind of agree about the one of problems during that time is that Melissa really doesn't feel like she had your emotional support.

know, she had, and I know Melissa, you're appreciative of the support that he was giving you in all these other ways, right? But what you're saying is, didn't feel emotionally supported. I didn't feel emotionally comforted. I didn't feel like I could reach him.

And Drew, you're kind of agreeing with that. You're saying, yeah, I think that there's some truth to So we know, help me out. I want to make sure I'm getting this right. I have a sense that you're holding something back.

I think looking, I again, I mean looking back you know, probably did not do a very good job of being there kind of emotionally to support I mean, the thought of loss was definitely going through my head as a fear and an anxiety. I think it's something that I just didn't want to accept as an option. So for me to have to process that was very difficult. And I never spoke about it.

Mm-hmm. OK. So I think if anything was held back, was promptly along those lines. see.

OK. So Drew is really starting to open up about his experience. so like I said, this is the session where I felt I needed another mind. So here's where I'm going to have George come in and give us some clear insight into how avoidant attachment in general is playing out here.

So. Here's what George has to say. but he still didn't get help. Who's feeling bad for him?

Right, who's seeing that space where, you know, and I wanna know more about it when he says, you I couldn't accept it. I couldn't accept something was gonna happen. So I'd wanna lean into that. I wanna say, so help me understand if you weren't able to turn.

focus on the tasks. Like if you want to listen to the fears, like what would they have said would have happened? Like, I don't know what he's talking about, what he's saying. There were some big emotions that caused him to pull out, right?

So I would want to stay with that. He's probably going to go in a direction of feeling bad for her, but that's a good spot to explore him because he didn't ask. He still didn't get help. I mean, that's what a negative cycle, neither person gets She asked and didn't get it.

He never asked and didn't get it. But I really want to know what that's like for him. If he didn't turn that off, where would he have went? Like, so if you rewind that like 20 seconds, I think.

There's a whole lot there that he's was talking about. So you are really struggling with your own fears around and you weren't able to put words to And so what you had to do is you had to just separate yourself from that and keep moving forward. I would say Yeah, I mean, this was, you just three years outside of losing my dad unexpectedly. have it be your newborn son.

was just a little bit tough to process. what comes up right now just as you're putting some words to this. I think looking back, I don't think I had the right approach to being able to manage it within myself. So rather than opening up you know, would have felt like burdening you with that, I kept it in And it really drove a wedge, I think, between us at a time when we should have really been able to come together.

And for that, I'm sincerely sorry. Okay, so Julie popping out here. during this session, as we're recording, I was just feeling, you know, really feeling into this because Drew is getting emotional and vulnerable and it's a touching moment. But I also know that, you know, this is still, there's still negative cycle here.

It's not all bad. Some good will come of it, It's still this place of Drew saying, I failed, I failed, without really understanding that it was the situation that failed. And he's not able to instead say to himself, what was actually going on with me during that time that I was so blocked from Melissa and so blocked from myself to begin with? He just wants to own his part and help her feel better.

And of course he does, and that's commendable. Thank God he's willing to do that because if he wasn't, we'd have another problem on our hands. But again, he's trying to address this situation based on a very incomplete understanding of the heart of the problem. And here's what George has to say here.

Like he said, was so big, the potential of losing his son. didn't know how to deal with that. He not put words to his fears. And then he gives up and I know what it was like to lose my dad.

I know what loss is like, right? And I wasn't able to put words to that either. So that is a lot of emotion for this man right there. It's a really good answer.

I don't want him going off to start saying he's sorry for her. I want him to say like, who sees you? Who sees you in this place where you do know what loss is like? And I'm curious to know what he did with his dad when his dad died.

Did he was able to talk about that with anybody else? Or did he just go with the same survival mode? that he's going into now and somehow he's gonna beat himself up for he should have done it better for her. How the hell you supposed to do it better for her when nobody's done it for him?

Do you see what he's trying to do? He's trying to give her something he doesn't receive. That's not an easy thing to do. And no wonder why that's overwhelming and you don't know how to talk about that.

And yet somehow you're supposed to know how to help her in this place. You look three years late and you're like, I wish I would have done it better for her. I really want to fight for him to see it's not his fault he doesn't know how to do that for And I don't think he recognizes every time he has these fears and he just numbs out to those fears and just focuses on problem solving, that it compromises his ability to know what to do with her fears. So again, I do see that as a block that he gives you his little open instance to view himself and then he goes right back to performance, right?

I should have done better and I'm sorry. And then he goes, he goes right back to focusing on her and he leaves self. So I want you to fight for his, for himself to stop the exit to other and take care of her and say, wait a second. I think you're saying something really important about you.

That you're afraid of loss. Bad things have happened to you around loss. and you haven't learned how to ask for help or to talk about that place. It'd be a lot easier if he had to know what to do if he could get some practice doing that.

So what happens here is that was the direction I was trying to go. But then things got away from me. And the next thing I know, Drew was putting out an apology. And the therapist in me is saying, no, this timing isn't right.

We're getting ahead of ourselves. And someone is going to end up getting dropped here. But the human in me was not willing to interrupt that because even with everything I'm saying about this apology being incomplete healing I I don't want to even come close to sending Drew the message that he's doing something wrong in this moment He's he's not doing anything wrong. He's actually doing a great job in this therapy He's as vulnerable here as he's ever been which is so much growth and he's doing it publicly and I feel more protective of then I feel a need to make this moment as therapeutic as possible.

also Melissa is open and she's getting more than she's ever heard around this and she's touched and hopeful. And I want to protect that experience for her too. But again, in the big picture, this approach isn't going to fully heal this thing. There are so many missing pieces.

And so let's see what happens. What's happening for you, Drew, as you put words to feels new. Like I said, think this has been something that's been kind of lingering for years. to be able to speak to it, but to do it pretty clearly, I mean, is very refreshing.

Okay. And Melissa, a lot of big stuff is coming up for you, so help me understand. I think it's such a relief. Just to hear you say that.

Okay, so this is a really special moment and you know this, Melissa, to her this feels really new and it's something that she's been needing to hear and she is, she's touched, she's tearing up. I'm going to, like I mentioned earlier, I'm going to call this a yellow light brain right now. A green brain is fully safe and open. A red light brain is entirely threatened and not opened.

And a yellow light brain is open, but still mistrusting. You know, able to take some in, but still somewhat blocked. And it can be a really confusing place for both partners. And so let's see how this plays out.

I think I felt the weight of times 10,000. And that was a really hard thing to feel by myself. And I think it... I'm not saying we can go back in time, but it would have been really nice to feel it together.

And I think that now even in the smallest ways, like when you come home from I don't know that I'm looking for like a solution. I'm just looking to like be in it together. And it's, it's really hard to feel those big scary things like you're feeling it. I don't like being robbed of the opportunity to go through it together because I'm also feeling it.

Okay, Julie here. So now we're seeing what I mean by the yellow light brain. She's touched. She's in it.

Then she starts talking. And as she talks, her mistrust for it starts to build. And now hear how pressured her voice is getting. She's going from regulated into protest.

And let me just say there are very good reasons for her mistrust. I wouldn't expect otherwise. I was waiting for it to happen because they are too early into the work to be able. to do this without going into a cycle.

And I'm hoping that by seeing what happens here, the pitfalls couples can find themselves in when talking about this stuff. It can help you know more about what to do and not to do when trying to address these really big, hard, painful topics. So Drew is putting more words to his experience than he's ever done in the past because of the work he's doing in here. But his pitfall here is that he's still not fully emotionally engaged with himself.

And the apology isn't what's needed here. But he doesn't know that. We need more of Drew's own vulnerable experience around the hospitalization. That's actually what's going to help Melissa feel safe, to not be alone in it.

And she might not even know that's what she's needing. But her body does know. that something is missing in that apology. And so her mistrust flares, and she gets scared.

And then her fear sends her into her part of this negative cycle so that even when he is getting vulnerable in the best way he can right now, that's very new and very sincere, her mistrust gets the best of her, and she isn't able to fully take in what he's offering. And so she starts kind of piling on. more and more like, you know, I was alone too and I'm being robbed. And again, what she has to say is important and she's trying to get her fears reassured in the best way she knows how, but the timing is off and the delivery is off.

And so now Melissa's fear and mistrust are communicating to Drew, don't bother doing anything new because it's not going to land. And neither of them are doing any of this on purpose. It's all happening outside of their conscious awareness. Both of them are fighting for closeness, but they're stuck.

But not forever, just for now. We are going to get this healed. But for now, let's jump back in with Melissa. You know, Melissa?

Your tears are telling me you're able, there's something about this is healing and touching for you. Yeah. Right. But then this other part comes up and says, kind of that, trying to think of the way to word this, but that other part that gets triggered when this comes alive in these moments, it's up right now and it's alive right now.

And it's saying, I don't want to have to have this keep getting triggered over and over again when you come home in a bad mood. Yeah. Right? And so that's very real.

And I want to address that. And I never want to ignore that. But I want to go and check in over here with Drew and kind of see, Drew, like, what happens for you? You know, is this part of your cycle where you feel like you got vulnerable and you put some stuff out there?

but somehow she gets triggered and is still sort going into that place of telling you what she's needing or what you're doing wrong. I'm just looking for a cycle here, Yeah, I I definitely think that exists and... The discussion today hit it pretty squarely. Most definitely.

So just so we're on the same page here, it does to you sometimes, or just in this moment, like what happens in your body when you're putting this vulnerability out there? And then do you notice when she kind of shifts from kind of holding you in that into... that place where she's speaking kind of from that trigger, I don't want this to happen anymore. I don't know necessarily if we've broken enough cycles for me to be able to recognize how to do it effectively or well if a shift is happening.

But I definitely think that this is definitely a step in the right direction. Did you notice that her body shifted? Yeah, most definitely. mean, as I'm speaking and seeing her, my peripheral...

I think we might be talking about two different things here, and I'm going to just be a little more explicit instead of trying to beat around the bush here. So what I noticed is that you go to a place where you're in the most vulnerable place ever, right? And this is what Melissa has been longing for, is to hear you open up about this kind of address this in a different way, right? And acknowledge some of that pain and also put some more words to what was going on with you that really did keep you from being more emotionally engaged, right?

You were drowning in your own stuff. And then, so you put some words to that and you share with her and she kind of starts to take it in and clearly that touches your heart, Melissa, but then she kind of goes, quickly into this place of, need for this to not happen at home anymore. that might not be a problem for you guys. I might be just being a therapist who's sensitive to every little nuance going on, right?

But I'm curious if it ever feels like sometimes it would be nice to be able to stay with each other's vulnerability a little bit longer before we shift out into kind of that problem-solving place. And so I'm wondering, Drew, if your body picked up on that shift. Yeah, now that you explained it in that way, no, not necessarily. Okay, Julie, jumping in here.

So in this moment, I get really caught off guard because most partners in this situation where they have actually have been to some degree dropped will be able to say, yeah, I did notice that shift when they were taking in my apology. And then the next thing you know, I'm getting the list of what I get wrong. what I might get wrong in the future. But right now, Drew isn't able to make contact with that.

He's got other things on his mind, and that's OK. I know that it's in there somewhere, and it will come back up. And I also know that if we don't start naming it, it's going to keep showing up in cycles. And they both do it.

They both leave each other's experience and get pulled into their own stuff. Honestly, any distressed couple is doing And luckily, Melissa is going to save the day here and say, yeah, that actually does happen to us. We actually do do that. And for those of you listening, have you ever experienced this where maybe your partner showed up vulnerably and something came up for you and you weren't able to just really stay with them and that before jumping into your own stuff?

Or have you ever been on the receiving end? So there's a good conversation starter. And if you're following along with the homework, there's an exercise with the episode for homework, which addresses this. And you can find that on my website, the secure relationship dot com.

And of course, my book, Secure Love by me, Julie Menanno also discusses how to avoid these negative cycle pitfalls. The reason I say this is because sometimes what happens is, that when people are trying to share and Melissa, this can happen with you too. I've seen it happen with you too in our sessions. We're going to this vulnerable place and we're sharing, but then the other partner, they're taking it in, but then they get triggered and they move out and they move into their own stuff, right?

And then, it kind of leaves the other person kind of hanging. And so I try to teach couples, let's just hold this for a little bit longer. Let's hold it. Let's really stay with...

one at a time. And do you ever notice that that sort of happens outside of here, where you'll start to have a conversation and all of a sudden you're bouncing back and forth between each other's needs? Honestly, I think we might do that. Like it's such an ingrained bad habit.

I think that might be something for us to pay attention to and try to bring some awareness to because I think that maybe we're That's happening and we just don't even recognize it. Well, let's pretend that it did just happen. Let's pretend that, know, Melissa, you were really holding him and I want him to hold you too. There's a lot of healing around this that we still need to do, right?

I'm always looking for cycles. And so what it seemed to me is that we had this energy going and you did kind of shift out into a trigger. your body went into the same place that it goes into at home, which is I'm taking this in, I'm taking this in, but then bam, I'm so afraid that it's gonna keep happening. Yeah, I mean, that's accurate.

Mm-hmm. So it's like, let me see if I'm getting this right. I'm starting to feel a little more clear about what I'm trying to say here. It's like, you're taking it in, taking it in, but something in your body doesn't completely trust that it's gonna make changes outside of here.

That's absolutely true. Okay. There we go. Okay.

Yeah. So tell me more about that. Yeah, it's like the most, it's just like complete relief to hear that. And it's so connecting and it's such a powerful thing to hear him say that.

And so you're in the worst place ever, but now you're hearing the best, most healing thing ever. And so you finally are achieving the best place. And all you can, I don't even think that I'm thinking this in the moment, but it's like this subconscious, like, well, I don't wanna not be in the best place. I don't wanna go back to the worst place.

Like, what can we do to stay in the best place? So Julie jumping in here, I just want to highlight again why it makes sense that Melissa does this piling on thing when good things come her way. She's really not trying to drop Drew or demoralize him. She's just scared.

She hasn't had reason to trust changes. She wants to get to work her whole life. She's been taking charge of situations. That's how she's been trying to escape her own vulnerability and pain.

She rolls up her sleeves and says, okay, well, we've got a good thing going. How do I make good things stick? Won't it be nice when they both have better ways to make the good things last without having to go into this exhausting dance? Like, let's get going on the things to keep us here, you know?

I think that's just so deeply in my wiring, whether it's things from my childhood or just my personality of like, okay, let's get to work on that. Okay, so this is a common thing that I see happen with people, particularly people who have more of that kind anxious attachment is that sometimes it's really hard to trust that good things will last. for sure. Yeah.

Okay. And so as you're sitting there and he's sharing with you and your heart's getting touched, did you feel a shift? Did you feel the fear? pop up in your body that said, no, don't trust, don't trust.

Or make sure this lasts, make sure this lasts. Yeah, I don't even, it's so weird. Like yes, as you're talking about it and putting words to it, yes, but in that moment, I don't even, I think it's such a subconscious, like part of your wiring. I don't even think there are words to it in your body.

It's so hard to recognize it in that moment. just happens. Right. Yeah.

Right. And so sometimes what happens is, is it can kind of take you out of the good moment. You're in the good moment, but something about the good moment, it's like, well, I got to make sure this lasts, which is kind of a threat because the other side of that coin is what if it doesn't last? What if this goodness goes away?

And so then to kind of get to that problem solving place to make the goodness last, you have to leave the goodness. And that's really what just happened. And I'm not saying it's the end of the world or you did anything wrong. Like I said, I'm trained to notice negative cycles even in the most subtle way because I know that if I can see them in here, it's gonna help me help you guys recognize them outside of here.

And so do you mind if I kind of check in with Drew a little bit more about this and see, like Drew, does this sound familiar to you? Do you ever pick up that, yeah, there are some times when You know, it seems like things are going well and I kind of lose Now that I'm tracking a little bit better. Yeah, absolutely. OK, can you maybe give me an example of like the last time this happened?

Maybe things are going well and then she starts to get stressed. I'm just trying to, I want to understand how this plays out between the two of you and how when it plays out in the future, I can help you guys work through it in a new way. Okay, so now here's how this is all sort of tying in together. In part one of this session, they started talking about a negative cycle outside of here at home.

Then that brought up the wound because the wound came alive. in the negative cycle at home. Then as they talked about the wound, they went into the negative cycle. So the negative cycle, as you can see, is really blocking the wound healing.

And we found one of those blocks. It showed up right before our eyes. The block we found is that ultimately they both exit vulnerability, their own and each other's, and pop up into their protective moves. I tried to work with Drew to understand more about what was going on inside of him during the hospitalization.

And instead of kind of going with me, he exited his own vulnerability and went into apologizing to Melissa. He jumped over himself because in the service of trying to make her OK. Then Melissa was able to take that in a bit, but then her mistrust flared because her body This is not really what we're needing. And she exited into protest.

So for those of you listening at home, I hope that even though you maybe aren't able to track this as clearly as I am because I'm trained to do this, I hope you're at least able to see how quickly these negative cycles can come in and hijack even the most well-intentioned of conversations. It happens so fast. And so back to Melissa and Drew. the negative cycle, their negative cycle effectively told us just now, we're not quite ready to do this wound.

We still have some negative cycle behaviors to stabilize. So I exited that conversation for now to go back into doing some lighter work with their negative cycle. This will make them stronger for the next time they try to talk about the wound and they'll be able to have more success with healing. They're just going to keep taking these baby steps towards success.

Notice how I'm not choosing or not choosing to talk about the wound. I'm letting the negative cycle choose for me. If they could continue talking about the wound without going into the negative cycle, I would stay right there with them. I didn't push them out of it.

The negative cycle pushed them out of it. I followed its lead. And now for the duration of the session, that's what I'm going to do. negative cycle work.

So for the rest of this session, I'm going to take the time to help Melissa and Drew understand the negative cycle and what it's trying to do, what it's trying to say. Then I'm going to have them do something new. I'm going to have them practice a new move, communicating about all these feelings underlying the cycle in a new way. So instead of the negative cycle winning, Drew and Melissa are going to And that's what I want you to do at home.

Listen to what your negative cycle is trying to say. And instead of letting it communicate in the way it's wanting to, use your new ways of communicating to prevail. Eventually, the negative cycle won't need to exist because you'll have found a way to replace it with something more effective. So let's go back in and see what Drew has to say when I ask him about the negative cycle at home.

where he thinks he's doing what he's supposed to do and things are going well, but then the next thing he knows, Melissa, is triggered. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the example that we kind of brought up a few minutes ago. was coming off just a great couple of days after our last session. With little to no communication, it's just I see the the physical change, the lack of communication, seemed down, depressed, know, kind of frustrated you know, kind of no reason why.

Like I said, like we get the kids down, it's usually a time when we're able to like kind of spend some time together, check in, relax, unwind. And it was very much like, hey, I'm gonna go lay down and go to sleep. And it's like, well, that's different. You know, and I try to quickly check in, ask what's going on.

And I very little response as a result. So it kind of leaves me hanging out to dry, know, kind of like, I do something wrong? You know, I not doing enough? So it just, you know, left me with a big question mark.

And it took a couple of days for us to finally work through that. And I would say that that, you know, situations like that generally happen with the both of us quite often. Okay, so you're saying that, you know, something happened and it recently happened where all of a sudden, you know, she seems kind of like distant and checked out. And then you said it feels like I'm sort of just hung out to dry.

What's that like for you in those moments? I I feel a loss, especially because we're putting in so much effort and, you know, trying to strengthen, you know, our relationship. especially over the last several months. And then, you know, this is just totally out of the blue.

It kind of feels like, and caught me by surprise. you know, whatever I am doing to unwind, it's like, you know, that's canceled. You know, my number one priority is being able to check in with her and to try to understand what's, you know, what's kind of triggering her. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, it's And by the time we the kids down, time we get, you know, just things ready for the next day, you're talking it's 9, 30, 10 o'clock at night.

So it makes it little difficult to really go in that with like, you a fresh mind and... Okay. So in these moments, you feel kind of shut out and you feel like you can't reach her. And that's hard on you.

It's very hard on me just because I want to be there for her. did you notice like just in this session, did you notice some of that happening? Her checking out, her going away. No.

Okay. Okay. But so what we're saying is when it happens outside of here, it's really hard on you. And somehow this relates to...

you getting kind of left and blindsided. And then what happens for you in those moments like what comes up right now, just putting words to this. Yeah, mean, I don't want those things to continue to occur. I want to be in a place together where it gets to be the end of the day.

We're not holding back anything. There's no resentment. There's no frustration or confusion about the day or about the next day. It's just we're on the same page.

Yeah. And so in these moments when all this disconnection is in the And like, if you can't reach her, what is that going to feel like for you that night? What happens in your body when you can't reach Yeah, it sends my mind racing and floods it with insecurities and anxiousness. It's not a good feeling.

So you start to get scared and you start to question your security in the relationship. that sounds like a pretty bad place to be. And that's how you were feeling those first couple nights after our last session. And so my question is, how did you manage those feelings in your body?

What did you do when that stuff came up? Yeah, I mean, I think on the first night, I mean, I know it was pretty late, if I recall. And I think my response was along the lines of like, you know, asking her, you know, like, hey, where are you headed up to bed or where are you going? And she said, you know, I'm pretty tired.

I'm just going to go lay down. And, know, I'm kind of light heartedly just kind of asked them like, well, why don't you just come down here and, you know, so we can at least be next to each other in the same room. I think it was met with like a no, no thanks. I'm just.

really tired when I go lay down and that's where I kind of recognized something was up. And I think it was just also realizing like, it's pretty late. don't know if that was the best time for us to really dive into this. it was just kind of acknowledgement of that.

And we tried again the next day. So you just kind of put it away, you decided not to bring it up and talk about what was happening for you. It's late, this might not, maybe we should just deal with it tomorrow and then did you bring it up? Yeah, I think finally we started to, I think it took two or three days, but finally we were able to kind of dive into it a little bit and sit down and kind of work through it.

Okay. So for two or three days, though, you were walking around feeling disconnected and alone and insecure and anxious. Yeah. OK.

And then what kept you from kind of addressing it sooner is what? What were you afraid might happen just that night just to say, hey, honey, listen, here's what's happening for me. I miss you. Is everything okay?

Yeah, and I think time gets away from you a little bit. We're kids, you know, just... Are you afraid it will go into like a big fight or a big long discussion that doesn't really get anywhere or like a negative cycle or... Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it's going to lead to, you know, a pretty lengthy conversation, just not really good understanding.

as to what's going on or why. And a lot of times, like when I said, kind of time just gets away from you because, know, we're, well, this was a busy week, you know, preparing for, you know, hosting family. And I think, you know, it's just, it's, I don't know if it's - what you're saying, Drew, is I have these big feelings that come up too. I get uncomfortable too, very similar to what Melissa is describing.

But for you, for her strategy is bring it up, let's address this, but your strategy is, well, if I bring it up, it might make things worse. And there's kind of all these good reasons why this timing isn't right. I would say that probably happened this week. Does that happen a I would say it's definitely a cycle.

Okay. Most certainly. Okay. And have you ever put words to that and say, you know, sometimes I feel a lot of this pain too.

I feel lonely. I feel the distance. That hurts my heart, but I get scared that if I bring it up, we're going to go into a really bad place. Have you ever told her that before?

No, I haven't. just tell her right Yeah, I mean, I think when these things happen, while you're going through a hard time, it's obvious that I, I mean, it's not obvious, but I also am feeling quite a bit. And being there for you is my top priority. And when I get caught off guard like that, it's hard for me to kind of process and respond the right way to be there for you.

It's not that I don't want to, it's in the moment it's difficult for me to do Well, and I want to add something to this. One of the reasons it's difficult is because you're afraid that it's going to not really get us anywhere. It's just going to make things worse. because we're going to go into this negative cycle.

And I mean, it's true, right? There's truth to that. You have gone into negative cycles when you've tried to talk about the relationship. Yeah.

So I want you to just be a little more clear that you do have that fear. You both have really good reasons here for doing what you do in these cycles, which for you, it's kind of push it away, don't talk about it. You know, it's the same thing that happened when, know, during the original hospitalization. It's like something about talking about your feelings during that time.

And I quite know exactly what yet because we still have more exploration around that to do. But something about that would have just made it worse. You wouldn't have been able to function. You wouldn't have been able to And the same thing is happening here, which is if I start putting words to my discomfort in this relationship, bad things are going to happen.

So you don't. And then, you know, that obviously has its downsides. So I want you to just be a little bit more clear about the fact that it is really scary for you to talk about the negative painful things inside of because of negative cycles and because of, you don't associate it with anything good. You really I mean, I think you're starting to get some tastes of it in here.

But historically, there's been zero success around bringing this stuff up inside of you and putting words to Yeah, I think when this has come up and even a few days I think what I'm afraid of is knowing that the issue is way bigger than what I think we're prepared to kind of take on at that time. and not knowing. how to respond the right way or whether or not we can just get through whatever's bothering you. I just think the issues are way bigger.

And for me, I don't know necessarily how to move past it sometimes. And it's really And so then I want you to add to that. So yeah, I do end up holding a lot inside. Yeah, and I think as a result, I kind of bottle it up a bit.

I don't express how I feel. And obviously that compounds and doesn't lead to anything productive or good. this is it. This is the new move.

The negative cycle once drew to just continue not bringing things up to avoid a fight and or just make Melissa happy. What's missing is once again. Drew's vulnerable feelings, in this case, his own fears around her disconnection and his feelings of helplessness, which drive his need to bottle things up. So instead of me letting the negative cycle do what it wants to do by keeping him disengaged from it all as a misguided attempt at, you know, protecting everything, I'm giving him a new move, which is to share more about what happens for him.

And in the process, He's showing up. He's showing himself. He's truly and authentically engaging with her. And this is what is truly going to help Melissa and both of them be happy.

And so let's see how Melissa responds to his new move. So Melissa, what is that like for you to hear him be really clear about, you know, he goes to painful places and he gets really scared of bringing it up because he doesn't know if it's going to go to a bad place if you guys have the tools to deal with that. What's that like to hear and put words to that? I think it's really helpful just to understand, just to have that understanding.

It's incredibly helpful. It's like a lot of empathy, like you're not just... withholding that because you're angry or upset or not wanting to be connected, but there's like an actual, you know, fear and reason and it makes a lot of sense that you would, you know, that I can understand that. I can empathize with that.

you know, that makes sense to me and it's a little easier to connect to. And so Melissa, those were beautiful words. What's happening in your body? Do you notice anything, any positive feelings in your body as he shares more with Yeah, I feel like relief and love and you you just don't want the person you love to feel that way.

You want to be there for them and help and be supportive. Okay, so can you share with him right now that this is actually pretty regulating for you? Like you can just kind of share what happens in your body when you hear him show up and engage with you? Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a huge relief just to, you know, even just to hear you say like, hey, I want to figure this out, but this feels too big for this moment like that feels.

connecting that feels like it makes sense that feels Like I get to have insight and understand you better. That's a very good feeling and I Appreciate And forgive me, I'm going to add one thing to that. I want him to understand that your body actually relaxes. Yeah.

Yeah, it's relief. Like I'm not escalated and worried and fearful and feeling calm and just a lot of like love and empathy and I feel very relaxed and you know like I want to be there for you and take care of you and those are very calm loving feelings. again just going back into this body work I really need for Melissa to recognize in her body what feels better the felt sense not just knowing intellectually The body is where you really know if it's better or not better. so having Melissa verbalize the relaxation in her body is extraordinarily important to this work because it helps us know what's working and what's not working.

And so Drew, how does it feel for you to be successful right now? with her, you helped her nervous system settle by opening up and engaging. Yeah, I mean, it's relieving. It's almost like it feels a bit like the pressure is lessening a bit, you know, like even in my own head.

Does it feel like you're not used to talking about your feelings, right? And so when people aren't used to talking about their feelings, they're not used to being validated for their feelings. So now you're talking about your feelings. She's giving you a lot of validation.

How does that feel? Just to hear her say, get you, that makes sense to me. I'm here. I feel you.

Are you able to take that in? Yeah. mean, it's not the acknowledgment and the validation is. It's good to hear.

It's not something that I've experienced quite a bit. Knowing that it's us and kind of what we're embarking on, think it's something I'd like to get used to. All right. So just to kind of recap, we went in a lot of different kind of directions here.

But I appreciate that we were able to start kind of opening up this topic about the past and that terrible time. And in this work, We want to be really careful not to talk about, not to try to heal old wounds before a couple can do that outside of a negative cycle. Because if we start talking about things that were horribly painful and then we get into a negative cycle, then we're just doing more damage around that topic. And so we started to talk about it.

And I'm always, like I said, kind of looking for any kind of negative cycle around these conversations. And I thought I saw something flare up. And so I kind of, you know, went in and brought that to your attention. But as we keep going, we're still going to keep tackling that topic and creating more conversation around it, more healing around it.

think there's more things to be said. I'm not 100 % sure what, but that'll emerge if it needs to be said. And then the more capable you guys are of getting through it without kind of slipping back into those cycle behaviors. where you'll start to feel that tension start to not just be relieved here, but to contaminate your present moments less.

And so, know, Melissa, I appreciate that you were able when Drew shared about, you know, he does have a hard time bringing things up that are, you his feelings. He does have an association with talking about this stuff might lead to fights with you guys or might just make him put him in a bad place. So his... survival mechanism has just been put it all away and you were able to just hang in there with them and stay with them and validate that and You know stay with the goodness of it and I want you guys to work on that I want you to work on addressing each other's stuff one at a time You know because Drew you get triggered too, right?

Like I'm just thinking of you know, Melissa when you called him when your son Didn't break his hand, but thought he broke his hand And Drew, you said, well, what do want me to do? I'm at work, right? I don't know if that's exactly what happened. That's my perception from what you guys said that last week, I guess it was.

so that's telling me that Drew gets triggered when you bring something up. So you both do this. It's not just you, Melissa. You both get triggered when each other brings up something distressing sometimes.

And so I'm just here to kind of help you guys. Stay with the other's experience for a while before we go into our own stuff. There's always time to go into your own stuff. Of course, Melissa, you want him to, you know, not shut down and go to these kind of cold places when unexpectedly and when you're needing support.

Of course, right? But we got to learn to just kind of hold each other's stuff, you know, one at a time. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Okay. take some practice but yeah we'll get there. so how so we'll go ahead and end there how are you guys feeling now just off the record? Okay well Julie jumping back in and this session had gone on long enough already so long that we divided it into two parts and again we're dipping into this attachment wound and I don't know when it will come up again it might come up next week it might come up sometime after But I do know that it will come up again.

And when that happens, we'll take another pass at it. And eventually, it's going to happen with full emotional engagement and softening on both sides and in a positive cycle instead of a negative one. And healing will take place. And as usual, I have two extra resources available.

I have homework, which corresponds to the work we did in the session. Those are downloadable PDFs that you can find on my website, thesecurerelationship.com. You can also find PDFs there for our past sessions. And of course, my book Secure Love by Julie Menanno is the instruction manual for all of this work, as well as a primer on attachment theory.

All right, well, that concludes another episode of the Secure Love podcast. If you have the time, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple and Spotify that will really help us get the word out to couples in need of help. And of course, thank you to Melissa and Drew for their bravery and vulnerability. And I know we're all really rooting for them.

All right, well, take care, everyone, and I'll see you next week.

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