What Happens When Shared Fears Aren’t Communicated?

In this episode

Drew insists he's happy, but Melissa reads doubt in his face and body—an emotional disconnect that keeps their communication stuck. Julie Menanno helps Melissa voice her fear of pushing Drew away, then guides Drew into the shame and fear of failing beneath his withdrawal. They uncover a shared fear of losing each other, learn to validate needs, and touch the trust and wounds driving their negative cycle.

Key takeaways

• Congruence matters: Melissa can trust Drew's 'I'm happy' only when his face and body match the words; mismatched signals reignite her fear of disconnect.
• Uncommunicated shared fears keep couples stuck—both Melissa and Drew feared losing each other and the family, but neither said it out loud.
• In the anxious-avoidant dynamic, the anxious partner raises all the problems while the avoidant partner disavows their needs until backed into a corner.
• Shifting from event-focused talk to emotion-focused sharing ('I get scared') helps the avoidant partner empathize and stay engaged.
• Beneath Drew's withdrawal runs a chain of failing, discouragement, hopelessness, and regret—early shame work that feels vulnerable to voice but ultimately hopeful.

Read the full transcript

What Happens When Shared Fears Aren't Communicated? — The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno Hi everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author Julie Menanno. And of course I'm joined with the lovely and Melissa and Drew, a real couple with real problems here with me as we work our way from insecure attachment to secure attachment via 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're jumping into episode seven.

So as a recap of our first six sessions, Melissa and Drew are reporting that they're having fewer negative cycles, they're repairing faster, and they're feeling more bonded. They're noticing that they're able to easily get through situations which in the past would have really derailed them. Last week we also discovered that since at least his teenage years, Drew has been working hard to get it right, be enough. Be careful about being viewed in the right way.

Don't rock the boat. And we found that underneath that is a fear of rejection that shows up in his body like a pressure and tension. And that feels bad. And it's these physical sensations and their meanings which most humans want to run away from.

And my job is to help people feel these feelings and put words to them and help themselves with them. and get help with them and heal them so they don't have to keep running away their whole lives. And it's this healing that makes behavior change much more likely to stick. You know, when people are just trying to will themselves into change and not dealing with their deep feelings, behavior change is either not going to stick or the not dealt with feelings are just going to keep showing up.

in new behaviors. And so back to Drew, he's not been able to deal with his feelings because he hasn't known how. And so he just tries to avoid his painful places and he regulates those fears by stuffing them down, being really careful not to mess up. But that doesn't always work because what happens when he can't escape them.

And that's the thing with being human is that we can't always escape bad feelings. Eventually they catch up and we have to deal with them. Either we can't just stuff them away or we can't change whatever it is outside of us, which is triggering them. And I appreciate that Drew is here learning how to deal with them.

And I hope in this process, you are too. And what Drew was able to uncover about himself last week is that in moments when he can't get away from the feelings, when his strategies fail him, he feels helpless and gets frustrated and Then the frustration comes out. He says he might get snappy with Melissa, or he might just completely retreat. And that leaves him alone with it all, and Melissa left in the dark and unable to reach him.

And that's what negative cycles do. They leave partners alone with their feelings and unable to reach each other. And most people have been conditioned from early on in their lives to minimize their experiences and to say, well, yeah, these feelings come up, but it shouldn't be a big deal. I should just stop reacting to them.

But when I say, hey, what would it be like to see someone you love sitting there feeling helpless and sad and down on themselves and with no one to turn to? And when I had Drew imagine his own daughter feeling that way, he instantly responded with, of course I would comfort her. I'd never want that for her. And that helped him have empathy for himself too.

And see that maybe it's okay for him to also need support. And as we go, we'll get more into this. We'll need to understand even more about what happens for Drew because this goes even deeper. than we've gone so far.

We still haven't gotten deep into his shame. And as we get there, all the pieces will really come together. And with that, we're going to jump into episode seven. But first, if this work is resonating with you at home, I do put on couples workshops periodically.

And my next one is September 28th. That's a Saturday and it's four hours. And it will be a mixture of presentation and couples exercises and I do get amazing feedback for these workshops, which are hosted by me, Julie Menanno. They're live.

And for those who can't attend live, you will be able to access a recording. And we'll also have a Q &A directly after the workshop and another Q &A later in the week. So for more information about that, please visit my website at thesecurerelationship.com. And now let's dive into episode seven.

where we're going to weave our way back into Drew as we continue with his withdraw re-engagement. All right, well, welcome back. And I'm going to start with, how was your week? I think it was good.

I think coming out of last week, I think, Melissa, you and I have had some conversation. You kind of have had some kind of moments of panic, feelings of maybe some uncertainty that I know kind of came up a couple of times. And I we started to explore some of that and wanted to mention it on today's call. Yeah, I think after last session, the more that we processed it, for me, it was just kind of a feeling of sadness initially, of like, my gosh, we've we've both been feeling the same thing more or less, like struggling with these emotions or this anxiety or whatever it might be.

And we've just wanted to be there for each other, but not successfully done it. And it's just this sadness about, I don't want to say wasted time, but sort of like this chunk of time in our relationship where we've... tried unsuccessfully to be there for each other even though we're feeling the same thing we just haven't been able to figure out how to you know, for whatever reason, how to be there for each other. And it's the person you love the most and you just, you can't get it right.

I think that's, it's just a sad realization. Like almost like grieving lost time or? I think grieving lost time and like a sense of failure too. Like, no, we, like I, we have wanted to get it right, but gotten it wrong.

You know? Do you, are you noticing that even now there seems to be a bit of a disconnection, like you're understanding things starting to make sense. Maybe you're staying more out of those cycles, but still something seems to be missing. I think that's accurate.

Like this weekend, for example, we had another big family gathering and so much of it went so well and there was so much to celebrate. Like we stayed out of those negative cycles. We were a very supportive team. Things we never could have accomplished years ago, the really high levels of support.

But then like we came home and crazy day, getting everything unpacked, getting caught up. then last night, it was that end of day, trying to connect and we sort of misfired. You I think I wanted to have more of a conversation. Drew wanted like, I think eventually where the conversation ended was I was seeking more of that.

Well, are you happy? I'm not sure if you are happy because I'm sharing all of my thoughts and feelings. where I'm at, where are you? Like, what were you thinking about the weekend?

What were you feeling? Because we were like ships passing, even though we were very effective. And he's like, well, yeah, I'm happy. Of course I'm happy.

And I'm like, well, I don't have any indication of that. can't tell that you're happy. So I think that's kind of where our disconnect still is, where he's like, well, of course I'm happy. Why wouldn't I be happy?

And I'm... still afraid of, don't know if you are, if you aren't, because we're not showing it or verbalizing it or whatever it might be. And as effective as we were, there's still, like you said that next. tool or step or whatever.

Sure. I don't know if I told you this. may have, but just to kind of give you, normalize some of this, there's three main, three parts of this therapy, three phases. But really the first two are kind of the biggest pieces.

The third is just sort of a consolidation type of thing. And so the first stage is really damage control, just kind of understanding the negative cycle, getting you guys out of the negative cycle so you're not going into it as often. It's not as bad or intense when it does happen, and you have faster repairs if it does happen. And then we have the second phase, which is the much more bonding.

It's a little bit more like some of the work we did with Drew last week. Both of you... I'm going to do much deeper work with. That's where you're going to find more of the closeness and connection.

But sometimes in between those two, we're kind of hovering in between them. so think of like a bucket of dirty water. So you guys came to me with this bucket of dirty water, which was like these cycles, all the bad times. And so we have to drain that dirty water, and then we have to fill it back up with clean water, which is the second phase.

But for a while, that bucket can feel kind of empty. can be empty. Yeah, makes sense. So you're not fighting as much, but you're also not at the place where you really want to be.

Yeah. Okay. And so with that said, I'm trying to decide where I want to jump in with this. Does that feel accurate, first of all?

I just want to... I think it does for me, but Drew, I mean, what are you thinking? Yeah, I I think we've put a little bit of that into play in terms of, think we're able to more quickly recognize when we're starting to enter a negative cycle. And I think it's definitely been much less intense over the last, say, month or so in terms of us kind of taking the argument over the course of a few days is much less now.

So yeah, I think that analogy kind of does make a lot of sense. And do you, well, I think Melissa, you're probably a better, it's probably better to ask you this question because right now you're the one who's kind of more aware of that emotional disconnect. I think Drew, you're aware of the emotional disconnect because you know Melissa's not happy, but Melissa, you're kind of viscerally aware of that emotional disconnect. And does it make sense to you?

that you're still not really at that level of closeness where you want to be. But you also recognize things are better. Yeah, I think that's a perfect description of it. Things are getting so much better and there are these moments of closeness that are wonderful and really exciting.

But sometimes it's just still like we can't figure it out, but we want to. If you could just tell me really quickly, because I really want to know what's different about those moments when it does feel connected. And when I say connected, I don't just mean not fighting. I mean, you actually feel like you're feeling each other's emotions.

You feel at ease. You feel just that kind of felt sense of connection in your body. Like you can reach each other. I think for me, there's a lot of.

I'm much more aware of my fear and my anxiety and my worries, but I also know, like Drew will say, I'm happy, of course I'm happy, or I appreciate you, of course I appreciate you, things are great, of course they're great, and I hear that, but I still worry and feel these things because he'll say that, but I can see a look on his face that's a little... downcast or like his mind is elsewhere, his thoughts are elsewhere. And so my fear will still kick in, but there are moments like little glimmers where he's fully present, fully engaged. He's smiling, whether it's snuggling up on the couch, holding hands, laughing and playing with the kids.

Like I hear you saying you're happy and you are happy. be like it I don't have to fear it or wonder about it because it's very very evident versus like I hear you saying you're happy but your face looks very elsewhere and worried like those are two different experiences. Okay that makes a lot of sense to me and do you notice that those happy times there are more of those when he is congruent his expressions are matching what he's telling you? More than there used to be.

Okay, that's what I'm wondering. Yeah. There's a... Okay.

All right. So let me just ask you this. Like, what is it like for you, you know, right now, just as you kind of put words to these moments, when you talk about these moments where there's this disconnect between him saying I'm okay, but not... Your body isn't feeling the okay, right?

Is that happening right now? you worried right now? Just Yeah, I think it's so hard to put words to it because I want... And I think we talked about this.

It was like one or two sessions ago, instantly going into that damage control of, want you to hear and celebrate the success because I don't want that to go away. The couple of good times that it's happened, I want to... praise that and celebrate that. But it's also really terrifying when we do still feel disconnected because it's very, we spent a lot of time being very disconnected and I don't want to go back to that.

No, you don't want to go back to that. And so it makes sense to me that even right now that might be coming up where we're going down this road where we're kind of teetering on what Drew's getting wrong, maybe. And in such a weird place mentally because I want to solve it and get past it, but I don't want to be critical because that doesn't, I don't want to be like the critical one. Like, look, this is what you're doing wrong.

So how can we get through it without me being critical? And then you just get stuck in your own mind and you're like, well, I'll just say nothing. No, I absolutely get that. So.

What I like to do is help you talk about it in a way that is really just kind of focusing in on your own experience and getting out of this, you know, dialogue, this negative cycle dialogue where it's about him and what he's getting wrong. Julie jumping in here. So what happened is I started to ask Melissa about her experience and she started feeling stuck because she wants to talk about what's not working, but she's also afraid of being critical. and that's a very tricky place to be.

So she's not feeling safe, and before we move forward, I need to help her feel safe. So I'm choosing here not to dive too deeply into her fears because my focus right now in this phase of the therapy is Drew. So I'm going to see if I can use Drew to support Melissa right here and now so she can feel safe and we can eventually work our way back to Drew. If Melissa isn't safe and heard, she'll have a hard time telling about the negative cycle, which is going to get me to Drew.

So you might be wondering, what about the fact that Melissa seems to be the only one bringing up problems? That is very real in our work together. And you may have noticed that even when I asked Drew about negative cycles, his answers often revolve around Melissa's disappointments, not his own. He says, well, Melissa felt dropped or Melissa felt upset.

And what this means is that Drew isn't able yet to own his own pain points in the relationship, which we know he has. This is very common in the anxious avoidant dynamic. The anxious partner is bringing up the problems. The avoidant partner is bringing up none, or they're only bringing them up as a way to defend themselves when the anxious partner first brings something up.

And that's exhausting and unfair. for both of them in its own way. So eventually where we want to be, where we need to be, is that Melissa isn't the only one being quote unquote critical. But we have to engage Drew first, get him to stop disavowing his needs until he's backed into a corner.

And he's not going to get there until we finish this deeper work with him. So again, I'm working my way there right now and will be for the first several minutes of the session. until I get myself grounded in this negative cycle they're describing. So I can then move fully and withdrew.

So let's see what Melissa has to say right now about her fears of being the only one bringing up problems. But maybe what would be helpful right now is for you to just tell me what's happening inside of you as you put words to this, like that there is this part of you showing up right here and now, understandably, that doesn't want to go into this place where you push him away and he starts to feel criticized. I think it's a very jumbled feeling and it's a very fearful feeling. -hmm.

Yeah. And I want you maybe just to look at him and say, right now I'm scared that if I start to talk about some of my experiences and those moments that I might push you away. Yeah, it's scary. It's hard to bring it up.

I don't want to push you away. I want to... find a way to be closer and not be disconnected. And I'm just unsure how to approach it.

And so Drew, does it make sense to you right now that as we're here trying to work through some of the stuff that happens at home, that she would have this kind of fear or worry about triggering you or pushing you away? It definitely makes sense. We've had some dialogue around this in the past, but never successfully worked through it. Okay, so just right here and now, would you be willing just to look at her and say, you know, I really do understand why you would be afraid.

This has happened to us in the past. Just validate that fear. Let's just make some space for it. Based on, you know, the last couple of years, I can definitely understand where you're coming from.

And I know why you feel that way. And I certainly am open to figuring out how to get past this. You don't have to feel like that anymore. And so what I'm hearing, Drew, is that right here and now, as we go forward, you're okay.

You're doing okay. You can, you're with us. You're not being pushed away. And Melissa, are you, are you able to take that in?

Does that help you feel a little more reassured that we're safe? Yeah. Okay. And how do you know that you feel more reassured?

What's different in your body? just, see, I feel more relaxed. Okay. And so can you just tell him that?

Thank you. You know, that does help my body feel safer and more relaxed to hear that you're with me and you're good. It's nice to not panic and it's nice to feel relaxed and to just be reassured that you're here. You're not going anywhere.

That this makes sense. that we're in it together. That's a good feeling. right.

So what I wanted there is just to help you feel a little safer in this session, talking more about what comes up for you in those moments outside of here when you're wanting to reach or wanting this connection, you're wanting to know if he's okay and kind of check in with him and you're getting mixed messages. Yeah. Do you think it's okay? Can we go forward with that?

Do you feel a little better? Yeah. Okay. All right.

I would like to know, know, what I'm going to do is just kind of get a better understanding of what it's like for you. And then I want to check in with Drew and understand more about what's happening for him in those moments. If we can, you know, all agree that this happens. So tell me just like, how do you know?

You said, you know, I pick up these moments where something just feels distant and... He, I'm saying, are you okay? Are you happy? And he's saying he's happy, but there's just this look on his face.

I think it's a moment where maybe I don't do a good enough job being direct in saying. Hey, I'm attempting to be close to you right now, but I think what I'm attempting to do is check in like, hey, here are my thoughts and feelings. Like this last weekend, it was about our big family trip because that's something where we've been very unsuccessful in the past when you have three screaming kids and a lot of opinions from family members and... totally thrown schedules and a lot of crying from the kids and whatnot.

So it felt really good to have some success and avoid those negative cycles. So I think it was just the end of a long weekend. We hadn't checked in and it was me saying like, was my experience. This is how I felt.

This is what I was thinking. Will you share with me what was your experience? What were you thinking? And to have that met with like, you know, checking his phone a couple of times, not a lot of facial expression, maybe glancing at a movie that's on the TV, changing the subject to what's coming up for the week.

There was nothing hurtful or negative. I think he was just like, of course, I'm happy. I had a great time. Let's move to the next conversation.

This is closed. And I was looking for a little more. You know, the moments where we are connected are very warm and engaging and just different. Okay.

Okay. So that's giving me, painting me a pretty good picture of what happens. And so you're, again, you're hearing yes, and yet, you know, you're, he's looking at his phone or changing the subject. And then not only are you not getting that connection that you're looking for, but then on top of that, you start to get worried.

What does this mean? Does this mean he's mad? Does this mean it didn't go well? I mean, does that feel right?

Yeah. I mean, I had kind of layers. Naturally, mean, bedtime after a weekend like that hadn't gone well with our kids. And so there was a lot of intense emotion around all three of them.

So that hadn't really gone well either. So we were coming off of a very intense moment and we just didn't connect. OK. OK.

And so there are some other factors here that can make it make sense a little more, but still what we are, know, at the end of the day, you still had these feelings. Yeah. You're still feeling like he's distant and then you start to worry. And then maybe that part of you comes in and says, it me?

Did I get it wrong? And then that takes you to a bad place. And we'll We'll keep talking about that bad place. But do you mind if I check in over here with Drew and understand kind of what his...

So Drew, what's coming up for you? Is this relatable to you? Are you thinking, wait a minute, this feels like not my experience at all. Just help me understand.

And I just want to put this out there for both of you. We're moving into a phase of the work where I am going to be spending a little more time with Drew. That's a good thing. That means we're moving forward.

And it's not that I'm picking on you, Drew. It's just part of this therapy is the second phase. We always work with the more avoidant partner first. again, I'm not picking on you.

This is my way of taking care of both of you. So are you OK with that? Yeah. Yes -ish.

Yes -ish. OK. right. Well, I won't.

I will be very careful. I don't like to leave anybody feeling overwhelmed or flooded or so if you if that's happening, just let me know and we can let you take a breather. So all right. So yeah.

So let me let me in on just kind of your experience around what she's saying. Yeah, I mean, it's it's accurate. You know, I think in this particular situation, it's the end of a long weekend. It's a struggle to get the kids down.

It's, you know, we're winding down for the night, you know, and I think she was, you know, I wasn't really picking up on how, how she wanted to connect. So, you know, I perceived it as very casual conversation. you know, it's just, again, just kind of going through, just going through the motions of winding down for the evening after a long weekend. and I think.

Melissa was really looking to connect a little bit more deeply and much more focused. it took me a while to pick up on that. at that point, I think the frustration already mounted to a point where it was tough to recover from. So let me just pick this, see if I can understand.

So Melissa, you're wanting more of this connected experience. And then Drew, you're having this conversation that feels more casual to you. You guys just had a big weekend. And then when did you pick up on the fact that she's not happy with us?

I mean, could, I mean, the course of, I bet it was like an hour, I suppose, of just kind of going in and out of conversation. just, you know, obviously you just pick up on body language and, you know, the shortness of response and. just start to dive a little bit deeper as time goes on and ultimately we're able to kind of. kind of get to the root of it, more or less, but it just took quite a while to get there.

Okay, I think I want a bit of a more clear picture here about what these conversations look like between the two of you. Like, Melissa, you're saying, hey, how are you? How are you feeling about the weekend? And then, Drew, you're kind of giving one word answers, looking at your phone.

This is what I'm imagining, right? And then Melissa, then what's your, how does it turn into an argument? I don't want to say it was an argument. I think it was just sadness and frustration, at least how I perceived it from Melissa that I was unwilling to connect or recognize that there was a deeper connection that was kind of needed in the moment.

Okay. So somehow you just, you ended up getting the message, she's not happy. It went from, we're just having a casual conversation to she's, she's feeling let down. Yeah.

And then what happens after that, after you pick up on that, what happens? Suppose I, I mean, I just turn, turn my focus to it and we kind of talk through it and you know, I asked, I asked pretty direct question, like, you know, what's was causing you to feel this way. Okay. And we started to break it down in that regard.

Okay. And then was that enough, or was something still missing for you? I think, I'm trying to think of how I want to say, I think something that I'm guilty of in these moments where it's very small and it's not like a true, like heated specific argument is I'm trying to connect to him. He's not really engaging.

And then I have this thought in my mind like, well, it's, you know, he hates having serious conversations. This isn't a good time to connect. So I'll just shut down. and then he will notice that and say like, wait, what's going on?

Why are you shutting down? And then we'll kind of solve through that immediate little problem, but it doesn't necessarily make me feel better about the global problem that, like we band-aided that instance, but we didn't solve the greater problem of not being as connected as I would like to be. So it's like things are okay for that moment, but now I just have this like ick that I want to just go away and get away from because I feel like now I'm having thoughts of he doesn't enjoy talking to me. We didn't really connect.

Like that's a very fearful feeling, but I don't want to push it. I don't want to push him even farther away. So there's like this whole spiral happening in my mind and I just try to shut that down. I see.

Okay. So what you do, in this situation is you start to have these bad feelings come up. But again, like you said a minute ago, you go to this place where it's like, well, I don't really want to say anything because if I say anything, then that's just going to make more layers here. Right.

And we're having a small good moment of like, OK, we band-aided this situation, so let's just take that. And we're good. Let's move on. OK.

But still, there's something. left unopened about it for you. And what's left unopened is the fact that you couldn't reach him to begin with. Yeah.

And you don't want to have to fight to reach him. You don't want it to have to get to that point. You just want to reach out and have him respond and not have to take it on for an hour to get there. OK, so Julie jumping in here.

I'm just still trying to understand the bigger picture of the negative cycle. And. get Melissa settled before I moved to Drew. But there is a caveat here.

If Melissa doesn't actually settle, if I sense big emotion in her as she's talking, if she starts crying or gets really triggered in any way, I'm going to pivot and follow her emotion because if she's upset and dysregulated, she's not going to be able to be present for the deeper work I need to do with Drew. And the reason that we do this deeper work later in the Therapy is because both partners need to be regulated and able to support each other through it. But as I recorded the session, I felt confident they'd be able to go forward and I could fulfill my mission with Drew. But I'm always ready with a plan B when things don't go as I planned.

And for you working at home, just know that it's really important to be able to hold vulnerability. for each other. In other words, to respond to your partner's vulnerable sharing with support and comfort. For emotional vulnerability to be successful, it is a team effort.

And if something's coming up in you that is blocking you from holding your partner's vulnerability, that's something that really needs to be explored. So that aside, let's finish our understanding of Melissa's side of this negative cycle. they're describing. Yeah.

I think it really like it starts those feelings that we uncovered from back in the beginning of if I were good enough or appealing enough, then I wouldn't have to like he would want to connect to me. Like these conversations would he wouldn't push them away. Like we used to have these conversations all the time years ago. Like he loved talking to me.

You know what? What is it now about me that I'm no longer appealing to talk to? But then I'm aware also that I'm having 1,000 thoughts and he's just checking golf scores. Like he's not there with me at this emotional capacity at all.

Right. He's in totally different place. And so I guess what I'm curious about is what gets in the way of you being a little more direct with what you're hoping for. And first of all, I understand why you don't, but I'm just curious.

I mean, I understand that you have a good reason for not doing it. It's not me judging it. I'm just curious. I think it's what gets in the way of saying, hey, would you mind putting your phone down?

Over the years, it was so easy for us in the beginning to connect in that way when we had no responsibilities, but we thought we did. But now we have all these other stressors. over the last five years, as things have gotten intense, when I tried to have some sort of connecting moment, most often it gets met with, I'm too tired. I don't want to connect in that way.

This conversation is a burden. No, thank you. And over time, the buildup of that feeling, it creates a narrative in your mind of, this isn't going to go well. Right.

OK. So it makes then again, we have a good reason that you don't be more clear and say, hey, can you put your phone down? Like this is one of those moments where I want to have your engagement here and understand how the weekend was for you. Yeah.

And at least give them the opportunity to say, my gosh, I want to talk to you, but my brain is fried right now. Can we have this conversation tomorrow? Like that would at least probably feel better than the disengagement. Am I getting that right?

Yeah. I mean, even that would feel way better. Right, but what happens is, is you've had in the past that if you complain about the disengagement, then that turns into another fight. So you've learned just to kind of go into your shell.

Yeah. Okay, and then he picks up on the shell and then he reaches and you're going, well, wait a minute, you know, why did it have to get to this? Yeah. Okay.

And so... I want to, this is again where I want to kind of go over here, Drew, and understand more. mean, you have some, whatever your reaction is, makes sense also. I think maybe though, Melissa, before I switch over, I would like for you to share that with him.

That, you know, there is a part of me that's afraid if I am more clear with you. that's going to take us into a negative cycle because that has been my experience in the past, that that's where we've ended up. Yeah, I think in the past I've attempted, even if I've not done it well, but I've attempted to be more direct and try to say, I really need to be connected, or this is a moment where I'm really needing this from you, and it has not been successful, or it's not been well received. Okay, Lissa, I'm going to interrupt you.

I want to go back a bit. I want to understand more about what is happening in your body. I want to talk more about the emotional part. Right?

Because what you're describing to me is really important. It's you, you know, again, reaching out, wanting to connect, even if the connection is him being engaged enough to say, I'm so sorry, honey. Let's, can we talk about this tomorrow? My brain's just not, not in a, in a place to interact.

Right? Like what is happening inside of you in those moments that is keeping you from directly asking for what you're hoping for. being more clear, sending a little clearer signal. I think I'm afraid of it getting worse because in the past that has happened and to take it from a place that already doesn't feel good to a place that feels even worse than what I'm already feeling is just unmanageable and I can't, I can hardly handle what I'm already feeling and I already feel bad about not being able to handle it.

and I know myself enough to know that I can't handle more so then I just shut it all off. Okay, do you see the difference there? One is sort of talking about it like an event and the other one is talking about it more from how you're being impacted, right? And that's not something that you're used to doing.

Yeah. Okay, and how does that feel different for you to share more about what's going on with you emotionally? It's new. And it's good.

Let me check in over here with you, Drew. Does it feel different to you? We've got two different ways that we can sort of talk about this. One way is, and I'm not, again, Melissa, I'm not saying you did anything wrong.

I'm just always trying to kind of tweak this around and keep us focused on the feelings here, because that's what we're doing is emotionally focused therapy. And so Drew, does your body feel it differently when you hear her kind of just stick with, hey, I get really scared in those moments. Yeah, it's a different kind of validation for me to hear. knowing that.

Knowing that I never want her to feel like that, I definitely kind of prioritize it in my mind that this is something that should probably stop anything else that I'm thinking about or doing and kind of turn my attention to kind of understand where she's coming from. OK. So what happens for you, it sounds like, is that it's easier for you to kind of emote. step into her emotional world, empathize with that, with those feelings.

Like you've felt those feelings before, right? Feelings of like kind of being scared to bring up a topic or. Yeah, definitely. Okay.

And so when you are hearing her talk about her feelings, it's easier for you to have empathy for those feelings. It is. Okay. And does that help your body shift into a more relaxed state when she's sharing the feeling part of this?

Yeah. I mean, I think based on all the work that we've been doing lately, I think being in that vulnerable state is helpful for understanding how each other feels and how we can be there for one another. So I think that's kind of what resonates with me. OK.

Would you be willing to look at her and just say, hey, know, when I hear more about your emotions, it does help my body relax and feel more open. Yeah. I think when I can hear and understand kind of how you're feeling, it helps me empathize with what you're going through, knowing that I want to be there for you. it helps considerably.

All right, Julie here again. So now I'm going to map out the cycle at home where they missed each other. And I've decided that to move into my work with Drew, I'm going to explore what it's like for him to not know she's wanting to connect and then find out. And I call this losing a game you didn't know you were playing.

And when I first bring this up, he's going to just want to talk about how he messed up and he wasn't prioritizing her. And as an aside, Drew deserves to be able to have downtime and he deserves to get clear communication from Melissa about what she's needing. But right now I need to understand what it's like for him to not get clear signals and instead hear you're doing something wrong for not being on the same page. As I take him there, something is going to happen right in the session.

This theme of this urgent get it right, get it right, while entirely bypassing his emotional experience is going to come alive just as I'm talking with him. And I'm going to follow that. And that's going to take me right where I want to go with Drew. So what usually happens in the cycle is that, Melissa, you get this.

scared feeling in your body. And again, it's very understandable because your body knows this place where you speak up and you say, hey, I'm trying to connect with you or however it plays out. And then things start to get worse. He starts getting defensive or whatever.

And you've learned to kind of have to do whatever you can do to avoid that. So you'll reach, but if you're not getting that response that you're looking for, then you just kind of have to be alone with those feelings. And then in this cycle, Drew, you eventually picked up on her sadness and then you showed up and tried to kind of talk about it. But Melissa, you're still going, well, the original reason I went to this place to begin with isn't really being solved, but I'm just going to take what I can get right here.

And then it kind of half solves it in the moment. But right here and now, we're doing something very different with that, which is I'm helping you talk more about your fear, right? instead of just pulling away and going into that place where you go that isn't a good place for you. And then Drew, it's probably really helpful for you because she's being a little bit more clear with you.

Yeah, it's definitely helpful. Okay. And so if we switch over here now to you, Drew, like what is going on with you? Like what is happening for you that you're not able to pick up that she's wanting to connect?

My guess is, is that you're not sitting there going, I don't want to connect with her right now, but somehow you're not getting a clear signal that that's what she's wanting. Yeah, I I think that's exactly what it is. It's just, you know, I don't, I'm not prioritizing, I'm not prioritizing kind of that dialogue and that feeling that she's going through, probably the way that she's expecting. So in terms of like what's going through, what's going through my head is again, you know, I kind of represented it earlier as kind of just a casual thought, like casual conversation.

So, you know, that's kind of how I'm treating it. Because I'm super guilty of, you know, doing many things at one time. But, you know, I'm trying to make a positive difference to, you know, obviously prioritize and focus on kind of her thoughts and feelings. And that's something I haven't really done a good job of in the past.

Okay, so you're saying, look, I am, I do want to be there. I do want to show up. You know, sometimes my mind's just in a very different place. And then you're not getting a clear signal about what she's wanting.

And again, she has her very good reasons for not doing that. But still, then you're kind of left in the dark. And then all of a sudden, bam, you notice that she's not happy. And then that's when you come in, which shows how much you care to try to figure it out and help the situation.

And so my question for you is like. How do you make sense of the fact that you don't pick up on it to begin with? Like, do you think that you're doing something wrong? Do you think there's something, you know, like you're getting wrong or something just, like, what do you tell yourself about you?

You know, we all have ways of making sense of things. And one way to make sense of it is, well, she's not really, I'm not really getting clear messages from her. And there's truth to that, right? But then sometimes we have these parts that say, Well, maybe it's me.

Okay, Julie here. This is where I'm trying to get into Drew's shame. The part of him that says, what is so broken about me that I keep missing it? For some people, the answer is I'm just bad or I'm just stupid or I'm just selfish.

I'm just damaged goods. I don't know fully what the answer is for Drew, but I do know this work isn't complete until this shame part has plenty of light. shined on it. And remember, it's a part.

This part doesn't define him. We all have confident parts, but unfortunately, it's the shame part that says hide and the hiding blocks connection. And I need to get there. And when someone has an insecure attachment, it's certain that this shame place exists.

So we're not going to get there today though, as you'll hear, but we'll knock on the door. We'll get to I'm failing at the relationship. And the impact of failing for Drew is that he'll end up alone and devastated and full of regret. This is called the catastrophized fear.

And most people are afraid of that place. But it's still not shame. Shame moves from I failed to I failed because. I'm bad or stupid or broken or selfish or whatever the core belief is for a given person.

And there are five parts to shame work. And right now we're working for the first part of that work, which is getting to the fear that triggers the shame, the fear that says I'm failing and I'm afraid of what will happen if I keep failing. I'm afraid of the cost of failing. So let's see what happens to Drew as I start to open up space for this early stage shame work.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely, I reflect on some of that. I mean, it kind of makes me feel a little guilty that I didn't pick up on it sooner, kind of feel bad about it because she's really struggling, you know, and it comes across like I don't care or that I'm prioritizing, you know. looking at sports scores or watching a game over really trying to validate and understand kind of what's going on with Melissa. But again, it's just...

Okay. So here we are doing this work and you're trying to be more emotionally available and aware and help her feel connected. And yet still you find yourself in this situation where... She's being dropped.

Yeah, it doesn't feel good. comes up just as right. What doesn't feel good? Does it feel like demoralizing?

Does it feel like you said guilty? Help me out here, which... Yeah, mean, it feels like I'm kind of failing as a best friend, as a husband, as a partner. Okay.

And that's, know... It's frustrating. Okay. So it actually takes you to a place when you get wind of this and you hear about what's going on with her, it takes you to a place that actually says, I'm failing.

Where does that hit you to think that you're just kind of failing here? All right, Julie jumping in here. So if you're wanting to do this work at home, this is where it begins, this sinking feeling. The trigger is Melissa being upset.

that takes him to sinking, the physical sensation, which he's calling and naming discouraged. Discouraged about what? Discouraged that he'll never get it right for her, no matter how hard he tries. That is a discouraging place that brings up the sinking feeling.

And that takes us to the fear, the fear that if he just keeps failing and failing over and over, he's going to end up alone and with an enormous sense of loss and a sense of regret that he couldn't stop it. Can you relate? I'll have some homework around this up this week, but for now, let's see how this plays out with Drew as he gets clear about this place in himself and shares with Melissa, lets her into his world, which is where they're both actually going to find the connection and safety they're longing for from each other. for sure.

But it definitely, you know, I wouldn't say like it sends me spiraling, but it's, it's just a, it's just a hit kind of emotionally and internally. you feel some of that right now? The sinking? Yeah.

I mean, when I reflect on like even the conversation last night and, kind of when we were in the heart of it. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Okay.

yeah, you said it's not like, you know, this terrible worst place in the whole world, but like still it's there. And if you could just tell me more about that sinking feeling, where does that sit in you? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely... So it's kind of the pittier stomach, know, kind of putting you a little bit in knots in a sense.

just a bad feeling. Is it like sad? What's bad about it? Yeah, mean, it's discouraged.

It's just feeling discouraged. Feeling discouraged, OK. Yeah, and I think part of how that's felt in the past is it's just you know, depending upon, you know, what the conversation is about or what we discussed, you know, it's just hard to pick yourself back up and try to reset. Okay.

I'd say that's about it. when you start to feel discouraged, it's hard for you to come back from that. That's a bad place for you. Yeah.

I think it, think over the years it's been really tough to reset and you know, it's almost to a point where you just want to give up on the conversation and walk away and let of time start to heal it, but all you're doing is putting band-aids on it and it doesn't really do as much good historically. I think as of late, it's trying to retrain myself to say, I don't want to be here. I want to reset. Let's start this over and try again.

Okay. So there are these times where something is less discouraging. because you are able to hang in there a little bit more. But still, this place of feeling discouraged sounds pretty bad.

It's so bad that it gives your body the sinking feeling. What's that discouraged? Like discouraged that I'm ever going to be enough, discouraged that we're ever going to get out of this, discouraged that I'll never have the family I want or the relationship I want. think it's more or less just kind of that feeling.

Again, I think it's just like a feeling of failure. I'm really trying to put my best foot forward, and it's it's kind of never good enough to kind of understand and kind of validate how Melissa is feeling at times. You OK? And what if you just kept failing?

What happens if you just keep failing? No matter how hard you try. Yeah, I mean, feel like in the last few years, I've experienced that and it's just hard to recover from. It takes so much time.

Just want to walk away. I don't want that. So when you start getting to that place where you feel like a failure, you know that place. It's terrible.

You've been living in it. You've been walking around feeling like a failure. mean, wow, that's a heavy burden. Yeah, I mean, we kind of touched on it in our last session.

It's just failure, emptiness, loneliness to some degree as well. Tell me about the loneliness. feel like you're in it by yourself. You're in it hard to relate, hard for somebody to relate to you.

What do you think it would be like just to imagine this just being how it is? Just this is it. This is This is our relationship. like indefinitely.

What would that be like for you? That's hopelessness. And I don't want that. What comes up as you say that word hopeless?

That's defeat. I choose to not accept that. Yeah. What if you did?

What if you did get to the point where you felt you just accepted the defeat and you stopped fighting and you gave up? And then this would fall apart pretty quick. And then, you know, what's the impact of that falling apart? What happens to your marriage?

What happens to your family? really taking me to the worst place right now. Yeah, I mean, it's everything breaks. It's broken, right?

That's hard to even think about. You know, the amount of loss of what could have been for kids, for our relationship. Yeah, it's a terrible feeling. What's terrible?

How lonely that would be? How sad that would be? How empty that would be? Yeah, that feeling is very tough to put into words.

just kind of sit and see if a word comes to you. to describe what that would be like, what life would be like for you if you could never figure this out and you did just end up being defeated, which is the worst fear. Yeah, the one word is regret. Okay.

Yeah, I'd be filled with it. Yeah, you'd be filled with regret. to have to sit there and not just be in the worst place possible, but to feel like you could have done better. Yeah.

They would eat at me every day, every minute of every day. And how often do you put words to this? Yeah, I don't. Okay.

Would you be willing to share this with Melissa right now, just so she can see some more of what's happening inside of you a lot of the time that you don't talk about? Yeah. I think the feeling of losing you or... even the integrity of our connection.

It is... it's a pretty tough feeling, it's devastating. And I think... I think to think that our family wouldn't be a family is just the worst, it's the worst feeling of all.

I certainly do not want that. I definitely think that, you know, in the past I haven't really done a very good job of kind of being stuck in that, in that feeling and being able to come out of it the best. but I'm happy to kind of be putting words to it. talking with you right now about it.

It's hard to believe that every time there's a negative cycle, it can go to this darkest place. without anybody really even seeing it. How is it to put some words to it? mean, putting words to it is new.

makes me feel very vulnerable, maybe more than... I've allowed myself to be for a long time, so... but I think it's hopeful. Let me check in over here with Melissa, what's coming up for you.

It's so helpful and so connecting to. to hear all that and I think it's also just surprising. I've wanted to be connected to him for so long, almost like so desperately throw myself at him to try to be connected. then it's hard, just surprising to try to process, you know, maybe that one of his biggest fears is losing our family and not being connected.

And it's kind of like... Well, how can that be your biggest fear if that's my biggest fear? how then how on earth are we not connecting? Right.

It makes a lot of sense when you think of it as like And the more he carries the sphere and the harder things get between the two of you, the darker and more scary that place becomes. And then he has to do whatever he can do to disconnect from that, which ends up leaving him also disconnected from you. He's disconnecting from you because he has to disconnect from the darkest place. Nobody's trying to do that.

Nobody's even aware that we're doing that. It's all just lurking under the surface. What's coming up for you, Melissa? I'm not sure.

Maybe this would be a good time for you to just maybe just like hold each other and comfort each other. You both are doing some really good work. How are you feeling, Drew? I feel this was a very vulnerable but productive kind of dialogue between us.

One that I don't think we've ever kind of addressed so well before. Well, I know that vulnerability is really, really scary and terrifying, but my job is to give you guys success with it. to see that it can get you somewhere, that you don't have to stay up in these protective places. And you also don't have to live in the vulnerability.

We just need to be able to talk about it when it gets touched. And get right out of it. I mean, get right out of the pain and find each other and comfort each other. Wouldn't that be nice?

And it feels very hopeful. Very hopeful. how are you doing? Good.

Okay. I don't agree. It feels very hopeful. Okay.

I'm so glad. All right, well great work today. Thank you guys. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. All right. Well, that was a really powerful experience. And I know it brought tears to my eyes in the moment.

And I'm sure a lot of you are feeling into this with us. And on my end, it's just such an honor and privilege to get to be there with people and couples as they, you know, for the first time in their lives sometimes get to really find these very real and authentic parts of themselves that have been alone and ignored for too long. And it's beyond fulfilling to me to be able to guide Melissa and Drew and hopefully you two at home to a place where you can learn how to start showing up for these parts of yourselves in new ways and for you and your partner to help each other heal these places and If you're not in a relationship, that's okay too. You can do this work.

You can learn to show up for yourself and you can learn how to seek out safe and supportive people in the world and experience real, genuine, authentic intimacy and connection. so resources for listeners, free homework. You can find on my website, thesecurerelationship.com. My book Secure Love by me, Julie Menanno parallels this work I'm doing with Melissa and Drew in a self -help version.

And my four -hour couples workshop, which is hosted by me, is coming up on Saturday, September 28th. Again, out the securerelationship.com for more information on that. And next week we'll be continuing our emotional engagement work with Drew. And so...

Thank you again to Melissa and Drew and all of you listeners, and I will see everyone next week. Please don't forget to go to Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you're listening on and give us a five-star review to help us get the word out to couples who are in need of help. All right, take care, everyone.

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