The Journey Toward a Secure Love (Season Finale)

In this episode

In their final session, Julie caps 20 weeks of work with a round of shame work for Drew. She helps him see the positive intention behind his need for order before confronting the shame beneath it, explaining that self-acceptance—not self-criticism—is what breaks the cycle of shame that triggers avoidant withdrawal. As Drew learns to accept himself in imperfect moments, he and Melissa practice reassuring each other, deepening the emotional connection and co-regulation that has been their goal.

Key takeaways

• Julie's core teaching: the opposite of shame is self-acceptance—accepting yourself, not the behavior you dislike.
• Paradoxically, accepting himself in imperfect moments is what helps Drew reduce the reactive, avoidant behavior.
• Julie first honors the positive intention behind Drew's perfectionism and need for order before addressing the shame underneath.
• Drew asks Melissa the same question she asked him: can he still be seen as strong and safe when he's overwhelmed and reactive?
• Self-acceptance for both partners unlocks the co-regulation and emotional connection that was the aim of their 20-session journey.

Read the full transcript

Hi everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author of Secure Love, the book, Julie Menanno. And I'm joined here with real life couple, Melissa and Drew. And today marks our final therapy session with Melissa and Drew. And in this session, we're going to get right to work.

We've spent the last few sessions with Melissa and so we're going to cap our work off with another round of shame work with Drew. And at the end, the two of them will briefly discuss how their relationship has changed for the better by doing this work. But for those of you interested, we will have one final episode with Melissa and Drew. It's not a therapy session, but a Q &A.

And the Q &A with them will be recorded at a live event and then aired as the last podcast episode of this season of our work with Melissa and Drew. So if you'd like to be a part of the Q &A, it's free for all. For anyone who would like to come, please join us next Monday, December 2nd at 2 PM Pacific, 3 PM Mountain, 4 PM Central, and 5 PM Eastern. This is a live open event.

Melissa and Drew will, of course, be there. I'll be asking them questions, and I'll give them an opportunity to say anything they would like to say. And then we'll take audience questions. It's also a time for you to express your appreciation to them for their willingness and bravery to help so many people by doing this podcast.

And for those of you wondering what next, well, I've already started recording season two sessions with our new couple, Bethany and Brian, and that is going to be released early January. So today we're going to, like I said, do some shame work with Drew and at the end, And throughout the episode, I'll be including in the commentary ways that you can implement this work at home. OK, so we're going to jump in now, but let me explain how this session is going to go. My end game is to get Drew to a place of self-acceptance, even when he gets it wrong for Melissa.

Just like with Melissa, I need for him to accept himself as good and worthy, even when he's in the place. where his anxieties are getting the best of him. Because when he doesn't accept himself there, he's going to keep needing to retreat emotionally to manage his shame. And that's the avoidant attachment pulling away.

And when he pulls away from himself, he pulls away from Melissa, and then she's left in the dark and can't reach him. So I wanna do another round of the shame work just to solidify this work for Drew. And the opposite of shame is self-acceptance, not acceptance of behavior that we don't like. but acceptance of self in spite of behaviors we don't like, which paradoxically is what helps decrease the behaviors we don't like.

So we'll work on self-acceptance with him and then we'll get Melissa in on helping him too. So Melissa's version of this work was Drew, when my anxiety gets the best of me and maybe I get too emotional, then what is good for this situation and maybe I get reactive. Can I rest assured that even in those moments, you see me as a good wife and mom? And so today we're going to have Drew ask the same.

Melissa, even in those moments, when I get overwhelmed by the chaos of our lives and I don't handle that well and I get reactive, can I rest assured that it doesn't take away your view of me as strong and safe? Can I get some reassurance that in that place, I'm still acceptable to you and our family? And as you listen today, think about your own shame work. You might not be able to relate to anything about the surface details of Drew's life at all, but most likely you can relate to beating yourself up when you mess up, when you let yourself down, and when you let down those you love.

Are you able to say to yourself, you know what, my fear got the best of me and I got mean, or I was selfish, or I got desperate, but in that place of fear, even when I'm not my best self, I'm still good. I'm still worthy. What would it be like to learn to accept yourself even when you don't get it right? So as you listen, think about that.

And I'll be talking about the value of that approach as we go. So let's jump in. All right. Well, welcome back.

our it's our last our last session together. That's crazy. know. Well, So at the end, we'll kind of chat a little bit more about that.

But for now, let's just use our time to get some work done. How's that sound? Good. All right.

And then, so why don't you just kind of give me an update on how the week went? And then we'll, I have a direction I'd like to go here working with Drew today. But before we jump in, was the week? Anything good?

Yeah, I mean, there's so much to celebrate. You can really tell that positive things are happening. think there were so many moments, and I can't even recall anything specific, Drew, maybe you can, but I think just a lot of moments where we can recognize, my gosh, something big is happening here. There's a lot of tension and just noticing more of that, like, co-regulation and comforting each other instead of that.

quick to jump into the problem solving. I do remember there was one where I had just started to kind of, I had shared with Drew that I was overwhelmed and a lot of hard things were happening. And he did try to initially jump into a problem solving like, well, why are you feeling that way? And what's going on?

And then I think we both kind of realized, let's try a different strategy. And he, you know, put all of that on hold and just came over and was very comforting, gave me a huge hug. And it was just like everything diffused immediately, a lot of connection. There was just a lot of success around that because it was very regulating, very validating.

So I think we're having a lot more successful moments like that, which is... Very encouraging. that's amazing. Well, I'm so happy to hear that.

So good job to both of you. All right, so we'll talk a little bit more about that, but I want to kind of sew things up with, know, Melissa, we've done some work with you for the last several sessions. And I just want to kind of go back over here with you, Drew, and work with you one last time. And so what I was thinking is, you know, sometimes, like the example I'm thinking of is when the Halloween night, right, and you come home and I don't know what happened, but you say, the house is a mess or whatever.

And for you, you're just talking out loud, right? Which is understandable. But then that kind of sends you to your place, Melissa, where it's like, wait a minute, I'm working so hard here. And then it sounds like that was very similar to this milk incident where Drew kind of, in your mind, you're just kind of making an offhand comment.

And so I want to talk about like what happens for you in those moments. Something important happens for you that feels important to talk about. Yeah, I trying to think back to those moments. I think it's just, I don't know.

It's like an extreme rush of kind of frustration a little bit. What happens like right before the frustration? What is it that you see chaos or things are out of place or you fear something getting broken or destroyed or? No, it's, I don't think it's that I think it's more along the lines of, you know, shouldn't even be putting like, you know, for example, like with the kids and having the big metal containers, you know, full of milk and things like that.

But it's like, why, why, why we even give them metal containers when we know they're just going to throw them around and, you know, drop them? Why not give them plastic containers? you something with a sleeve on it. I don't know.

It's just how my brain operates in that sense, because, you know, they're just at a stage right now where, you know, if you try to correct them, they're very quick. They kind of, it's kind of like a game almost in a sense. like, you you try to correct them, they'll say, well, no. And then, you know, they'll kind of laugh a little bit.

And next thing you know, the metal container is being launched across the kitchen. So what happens if the metal container gets launched across the kitchen? What's going to go wrong? Where's that going to go?

Yeah, I mean, it's frustrating to, I mean, the outcome, something gets broke or something gets damaged. And I know like there's a big part of me that says, he's, know, one of the twins, if whoever does it, it's like, he's three, right? And he, you gotta, gotta, you gotta get on his level and you've got to, you know, teach him and you know, if I have a big reaction to his big reaction, you know, what's the benefit of that? There really is no.

So you really, mean, the bigger part of you understands that. And I think most of the time that's what happens. But, and I think a lot of people can relate to not wanting things to get broken. I mean, we work hard, you go to work every day, you work hard and it is hard to see, you know, sometimes that feel like you're going backwards, right?

taking care of your home and your stuff. So what happens is that what does it mean to you when things get broken? What's so bad about things getting broken? And understandably.

And again, a lot of people can relate to this. You're not alone. Nobody wants their stuff broken. It's a great question, by the way.

I think for me, it's just, I don't know if it's a matter of what happens if it gets broken for me. think it's more like, have a lot of things on my mind and I'm trying to get a lot of things done. And that shortness or sharpness. you know, that comes out or, you know, that quick like, hey, you know, to mel, you know, like why?

So that's what you do, right? You do the quickness and the shortness. That's how you're trying to somehow regulate whatever happens in between the metal cup and how you handle those feelings. I want to know a little bit more about the feelings between there and that space.

Because there's got to be some meaning to something getting broken or you wouldn't get the reaction. Your nervous system wouldn't care, right? That tells me that there is a fear there. I get it, like you can step back right now and go, my gosh, it's not a big deal.

But in the moment, it actually is a big deal. It's pretty important in that moment. Yeah, think a lot of it stems back to even how I was raised. You, you, take care of your things and you respect the things around you.

And there was, there was just some discipline around that growing up. And how did that help your life? And how did that help your parents' life? I mean, this is all, it's a good thing, right?

What's the important positive outcome of taking care of stuff? Okay, Julie jumping in here. So he's not quite ready to talk about fear. He wants to stay in why this part of him that needs so much order is a strength.

And he's right, it is a strength. And I'm going to stay with that for a bit more. I do need for him to see that this part of him that sometimes causes him to snap at Melissa, this is a good part with good intentions, a part of him that wants health. There is health in keeping things nice and orderly.

Why am I doing this? Why am I trying to find strength in this part that gets snappy? Because if people are told or they tell themselves, this perfectionistic part of me is just all bad, I shouldn't be such a perfectionist. They're just going to alternate between two places.

One is the part that buys into that and says, yes, this is true. If I could be less perfectionistic, things in my life would be better. Why am I this way? But then this other part is going to come in, the part that finds safety in the perfectionism and sees that it's better than the alternative chaos.

And because its safety is being threatened by messages, it's bad. That's when these parts are going to get self-righteous and they're going to start saying, this isn't perfectionism. This is the right way to be. Am I the only one around here who wants to keep things nice?

Those are two extreme places. And self-acceptance comes from balanced self-perspective. So my first goal here is to join Drew in the strength of his perfectionism, to celebrate it, because it does deserve to be celebrated. It's a part of him that is real and good and makes life better.

And when that part of him feels appreciated and celebrated, he's going to be more open to confronting it later and then really diving into the shame around it because that's real too. And you'll notice Drew always wants to focus on the positive and the positive is real, but so is the negative. And I have to help him jump into the negative to heal and feel whole. But first, I'm just going to hang out with him in the positive for a while.

as far as like the positive outcome of it, I mean, it's, I, I, I enjoy having that caretaker of, kind of, you know, mentality or personality. I think it's just, you know, I take a lot of pride and value in, you know, everything. I mean, it's probably why I enjoy cleaning so much too, because it's, you know, I like a clean and tidy home and, you know, I like making sure that the things that we have are taken care of. And I think the same goes for those around me as well.

Like, it's not just like immaterial. It's not just material things, it's also immaterial things. There's something in you that has a drive to take care of things, to take care of your stuff, your relationships. And I'm guessing, you know, the more your stuff is taken care of in the house, the more settled and happy the family will be too, right?

It's all tied together. And so what happens if you didn't care about that? What happens if everything just kind of went to hell and there's no, nobody's taking care of stuff and there's just chaos? Okay, Julie here.

So now I'm going to need to get him into the fear part of this. We know that the bigger part of him sees this perfection part as a strength. We don't even need to call it perfection. Let's just call it a drive for an orderly life.

Nothing wrong with that. But now I need to stretch him a bit and get him to own that on top of a healthy drive, there is a fear component here. Why is it so important that he owns this fear? Because it's the fear part that snaps at his family when things aren't so orderly.

It's the fear part that has anxiety around orderly and sometimes can't turn it off, even when it might be appropriate to take a break from it. It's nice when we can control everything around us and keep things as orderly as possible, but what about times when we can't? Are we supposed to just be miserable and tense and snap at our loved ones? I don't think so.

think there's a better way. So I need to get him to put some words to this fear part in order to discharge some of the energy around it. Naming fear lessens fear. And then to get him to link the fear to the snapping behavior that we're working on.

Because there are only two explanations for why he makes these biting comments, as he calls them. Either one, he's just randomly being a jerk who doesn't care about anyone else's feelings. or two, his need for orderliness, sometimes gets scared and frustrated. And then he snaps as a way to regulate the fear and frustration.

The snap is his way of saying, help me out here, help me out here. I'm getting scared, I'm feeling frustrated. Please just change the way you're acting so we can go back to orderly. But we know that doesn't work, right?

We talked about how that doesn't work with Melissa, it doesn't work with him too. So let's see if we can just start this by getting some words. to this fear part of him, getting some ownership around this. kind of disables me a bit from being able to think clearly, from being able to relax.

So let's talk about what the fear, the disable is how your nervous system responds, it's what it does, right? I want to know what's so scary about it all, the chaos. There's something there. I want to get some words to it.

Everything will fall apart. We won't be able to function. We'll be late everywhere. You know, what's the catastrophized fear?

It doesn't have to be a realistic fear because it's not going to happen because you're not going to allow that to happen. But I want to know what the catastrophized fear is. I'm trying to think of the right words to say in terms of like a response, but I think if I'm being really honest with myself, I think it's more or less just, it's the respect and gratitude for how I was raised growing up. And I don't know, I take that to heart.

really, really, I don't know, I guess I'm kind of proud to be wired kind of in that way. Right, it's a strength. It is, maybe others don't perceive it that way, but I certainly do. You do, and it matters to you, and it's a value.

It's a part of your values. It is, it is definitely a part of my values. mean, it's how I stay organized both even mentally. I like a sequence of things.

Okay, Julie jumping in here. So he really doesn't want to let go of the positive, the upside of his drive for orderliness that crosses over into perfectionism. I keep circling him back to the fear part because I have a mission here. My mission isn't just to stay in the positive.

My mission is to validate the positive, spend some time in it, and then address what's not working. I really don't want Drew walking in the house with a dark cloud when things aren't to his standard of orderliness. The family doesn't deserve that. And he doesn't deserve that.

And he knows that. And then he goes into this shame spiral. It's just this repetitive pattern of snap, shame spiral, apologize, snap, shame spiral, apologize. Because the fear and shame around this don't get attention.

They're not getting healed. So I'm just going to keep joining him in the positive where he wants to stay. I mean, if it were up to him, he would spend this entire session talking about how useful his approach to life is, and we wouldn't get beyond that. His nervous system trusts his orderliness.

He doesn't want to see that there's fear around it. For one, fear is associated with weakness, and two, if he puts his focus on the negative, that might mean in his mind, not in reality, but that he has to let go of the orderliness, and that's just not going to work for but I know there's a way to bring balance to the equation without him having to let go of this important part of himself. And so I'm just going to keep circling back to the fear and eventually he'll come with me and we can move beyond the fear into the shame. And if this work with him sounds repetitive, well, it is, it has to be because people get really locked into their defenses.

And as a therapist, I'm not just being randomly repetitive. I just, have to keep circling with them. That is my method. I have three options.

I can either just try to force them to do what I want by saying, Drew, you you really need to own your part here. And if you don't, it's because you're just being avoidant and resistant, which will have limited effectiveness. Even clients who do go along with that approach are most likely just being quote unquote, good students in the therapy and the work won't stick outside of the session. Or option three, I can just leave my own mission and follow the client where they want to go which for Drew is definitely not into the places that need to be healed.

Left to his own devices, he's going to talk and talk about the upsides of orderliness and what he quote unquote should do better. Drew loves to talk about what he should do better without really examining why he does the thing he shouldn't do to begin with. Or I can option three, which is what I'm doing. I can follow him into his defenses, validate him in that place and then move into my mission and withdrew, that sounds like, yes, your orderliness is such a good thing, such a strength.

And I mean it when I say that. This is a good place, a place that is self-care and family care. And there is some fear and shame in this place that needs some healing. So that's why I'm being repetitive.

You can use this approach in your relationship. If your partner is doing something you don't like. Let's say, for example, they avoid talking about problems. First, stay with them and validating the strength in it.

I love the part of you that wants to protect us from fights, the part of you that knows fighting is going to make things worse. And I love that you value our connection so much. We have had experiences where when we talk about problems and it doesn't go well, and it makes sense to me that you want to stay far away from that. You know, there actually is value in wanting to avoid fights and meet them there.

And I mean authentically, this can't just be words. You really have to be able to see the value in your partner's defenses to help them move out of them. And so see if you can meet them in that place and validate it. And then of course, at some point, you're also going to need to confront the downside.

And that might sound like, you know, at the same time, when we don't talk about our problems because there's some understandable fear around doing so, That leaves me feeling alone with it all and that doesn't work either. And you can keep circling with that. When they defend themselves, go with them again, meet them there. I get it, I hear what you're saying and I do appreciate that.

And then eventually circle back to what you need to. At the same time, I need to know that we can get through some of these hard topics. That's how I feel safe and close. So it's like honor them, advocate for you.

Honor them, advocate for you. And it doesn't have to happen all at once. You can honor them. and then come back later and talk about your needs.

You might have to play around with the timing depending on how escalated things get. But the idea is to intentionally make space for everyone's needs. So right here, that's what I'm doing with Drew. I'm making space for his need to talk about the goodness and the strength of his approach to life, which sometimes gets into perfectionism.

And I also need to honor my own need to take him in a direction, the other direction that's going to be healing for him. So I'm doing both. So when your values are intact and you feel organized and you feel like you can, you know, function at a higher level, cause everything's settled and organized around you, then is that like a safe place? It is because I can think clearly.

I can think clearly about what's next and not have to worry about the things that are in the back of my mind that I have to do. And so, you know, going back to, you know, your, your earlier question, you know, what, what if something gets broken? It's, it's just a matter of. Well, you know, I have a very, I've had a set of things that I wanted to get accomplished and you know, that derails me a little bit and that's frustrating.

Right, because what you hold dear and what I'm really hearing is two things that really keep you safe. One, knowing that your values are intact. This is a value system thing. This is how you were raised.

It's part of your character and who you are. And then the other piece of it is it just helps you have a better life. It helps you think more clearly. You've got a lot.

on your shoulders, both of you do. And the one thing that we can control to some degree is keeping our environment organized. You know it's better for your kids. And so then what happens is, is when something comes along to threaten that, that's when something happens.

That's when a fear rises up. And what is that fear saying? It's saying, I'm not safe. My safety is being threatened.

I mean, you and I know sitting right here and now that it isn't being as threatened in this moment when you get triggered as much as your nervous system believes, but it is, can we agree that it is a feeling of unsafety? Yeah, I would say so. I would kind of correlate, you know, safety to comfort and just, you know, satisfaction in that regard. But yeah, I think it's, I think if I am really honest with myself and I think back, you know, to even how I was brought up.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, then you could definitely connect that to a safety, a feeling of safety. So it's safety, it's comfort. You know, the opposite is not safe and uncomfortable and nobody's going for those feelings in life. Right.

And so then when you see these things happen that sort of start feeling like they might get in the way of that and You know, there's truth to the fact that if these things aren't addressed, they can start to build up and then the environment starts to shift into chaos. So it's not like you're crazy. But what happens is, is when you, you know, see the milk and you, maybe you're already like tired or your resources are low and that can of course make it feel bigger than it is. And, or when you come in and the house is kind of a disaster because that's what, you know, it's like when we have little kids.

But so what happens is your nervous system says alarm bell. Now that that whole, you know, my whole system of kind of keeping my head above water and feeling, having some, you know, is it hard for you to have downtime if you feel like things are kind of chaotic? I don't, yeah, I don't ever put myself into a feeling of downtime if there are things to do. Exactly.

So there you go. There's another really good reason why this can feel so painful in a moment. And then what happens? So first of all, you get the trigger, you see the stuff out of place or whatever, and then your body experiences the tension, because that's your body saying, whoa, something isn't right here.

And then the frustration comes in and says, you got to take some sort of action to remedy this so we can go back to feeling safe. And then what happens next in these moments, not all the time, right? The vast majority of the time, you're able to kind of regulate that in a way that is healthy, but then sometimes the frustration gets the best of you. And is that when you might kind of snap or say something to Melissa or bark at the kids or.

Yeah, that's definitely correct. Okay, so Julie jumping in. So now I have him bought in. He's with me.

We validated the orderliness. He followed me into the fear, which took us to the frustration, which fear and frustration combined together to create the trigger. And then we landed with the behavior snapping. Now I'm going to explore the shame.

And my ultimate goal is to diffuse the shame around it. by promoting more self-acceptance, even when the fear gets the best of him, which is going to help him approach all of this with less damage to his own self-worth, his own sense of self-worth, and with less emotional damage to the family. And with this work, these situations and these negative cycles they fuel are going to happen much less frequently. And don't get me wrong, Melissa also has a role in these cycles.

Her reactiveness hasn't always been helpful either. And we worked a lot on that for the last couple sessions. But today we're focusing on Drew's part. Okay, all right.

So what I wanna know is what do you, you know, we know this is fear-based. I know that's a big word, but you wouldn't, you know, the frustration isn't gonna exist if something isn't being threatened. And when something is threatened, the nervous system does just feel afraid. That's the nervous system's way of remedying to get back to safety.

And it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen again. know, just like Melissa's gonna fall into, you know, her anxious place that she goes is very similar. It just kind of shows up in different ways for her.

and her emotions are gonna get the best of her. And we've been talking about like, can you love yourself in that place? And she's learning to love herself in that place. And she's learning to get love from you even in the fear place that she goes to, even when it doesn't always show up as its best self.

And so that's gonna happen to you going forward. You're gonna snap, you're gonna say the snarky things. It's gonna get the best of you. What do you think of yourself in that place when you go there?

How do you feel about that place? think when I've gone there, I'm not regulating. So part of it is I don't have the perspective to. kind of see myself in that way because I'm so caught up in the moment.

I'm just talking about right here and now. What do you think about the guy that snaps? Is that who you want to be? No, it's a feeling of shame and guilt primarily.

There we go. I want to sit there. I want to stay there. You see this part of you that gets the frustration gets the best of you as a part that's shameful and is guilty.

And what is so bad about that part that it deserves shame and guilt? Yeah, because it's not who I want to be. I don't, it's not what I'm not what I want to show others, especially, you the people who I care about. more than anything.

So what is it that you don't want to show them? What might they see about you in this place? They see someone who's out of control, someone who's just a jerk, someone who's selfish, I don't know. Someone who can't control themselves.

I think they see someone who doesn't exhibit that feeling of safety that they can turn to. And I think over time, I'd I want my kids and I want Melissa to be able to see me as that rock, that foundational rock that brings the calm and the comfort and the love and the safety. And that's definitely not conveyed or portrayed when I go to that place. So it sounds like it, again, just circling back to your protect...

need to protect and your value system is that it feels very, important to you that the people that you love know that you're a solid, stabilizing force in your family. You're the rock. They can come to you. You're the wiser, stronger other.

Both of you are. That's so important to you. And in these moments, does it feel like when this frustration gets the best of you and you snap, it maybe feels like you're not that rock in those moments? Yeah, I mean, it definitely feels that way.

It feels like I let like a bad part of me kind of take hold a little bit and... Yeah. Okay. What's so bad about this part?

What do mean when you say bad? Is it a selfish part? Is it a weak part? Is it not an empathic part?

I'm just trying to use some words. To me, it's kind of just a feeling of immaturity. All right, so we're gonna slow down with that. It's an immature part, your immature.

There. So I want you to just say out loud that when the frustration gets the best of me and I... I snap. I see this as a bad immature part.

Just say that out loud. Yeah. I mean, I think when a part of me kind of loses loses a bit of self self-control and regulation, and I don't realize that, you know, I'm totally caught up in that moment. You know, it's definitely an immature part of me that kind of takes hold and surfaces and That's certainly not a good feeling.

We don't always like what this, you know, well, first of all, what is it like to just put words to that right now? Is this something that you have ever talked about, like how you feel about this part of you? No, I've never puttten words to it before. It's, but you know, it's something that, you know, I've reflected on personally.

you know, sometimes I realize it and I think I've kind of avoided it instead of sharing it with others. And so it's definitely a feeling of a bit of a feeling of vulnerability of guilt and shame bit. Okay. So when you, when you put shine some light on this part, then some of that guilt and shame starts to come up.

No wonder you don't try and lie on it very often. You're just used to wanting to beat it down and make it go away, right? But then every now and then it still comes back to find you. And that's just how life works.

Sometimes these parts come, they get scared and they come back. And we can learn to help them communicate and help them in a new way. But at the end of the day, it's just, it's a scared part. And when people get scared, that's when they are gonna try really hard to get their needs met.

And that frustration is you trying to say, hey, this isn't right. Let's change this situation. But then you turn around and you say, well, this part that gets scared and acts out in that way, it's this immature bad part. Do you think this part of you is a lovable part, a worthy part?

I've never thought that. Never thought that. What's so bad about this part? It wants to keep order, so.

your life can feel more comfortable and safe and so can your family's. What's so bad about that? I think I've avoided it for so long because I never put that type of a realization, never thought on that type of realization. Yeah, we know it wouldn't be a good thing if you didn't have this part at all, And I understand sometimes this part gets scared and reacts in a way that isn't always who you know, the way that you would necessarily love acting like.

You always look back and go, man, I wish I wouldn't have done that. and we can still work on that. But I just want to know if we can kind of make some peace with this part that does sometimes go there. that it's not a bad part.

It's not an immature part. I I'm certainly willing to try. Sometimes it might get scared and behave immaturely. But even when you go there, that doesn't make you bad.

That doesn't make this part of you a bad place. Okay, Julie jumping in. So this is where I'm trying to help him distinguish between himself, who he is at his core. and his sometimes ineffective, damaging behaviors, and I'm distinguishing between the part of him that is good and strives for health, which in this example is his drive for orderliness and what that part does when it gets scared, when he can make this distinction for himself in hard moments and say, okay, there that good part of me goes, getting scared and overwhelmed and letting the frustration get the best of me.

that doesn't define me. It's just afraid of not being in control and all of these bad things happening. And I don't need to go down a shame rabbit hole on top of all this. Let me just regroup.

Then he's not going to have to go so far inward and pull away from everything around him and beat himself up for being immature and not the rock he wants to be. And then when he's done beating himself up, then come back into life with this renewed determination to never mess up again. and just apologize and try to move on. That strategy isn't working.

Right here, I'm helping him truly show up for himself first, just like I did with Melissa in the last couple of weeks. So we can skip all this shame layer gunk that's really such a waste of time and energy and doesn't help anything change. Have you always kind of had some shame around this place? Yeah.

I mean, it's, you know, when I... when I am able to kind of reflect back on, you know, what I've said or how I acted, like it's, you know, I feel shameful because it's not, it's, I don't know, it's, I could have handled it completely different and in a much more patient and calm and collective way. And I think what I'm trying to say is I'm hard on myself in those moments. Yeah.

What's it like, you know, that you have tried so hard to not go there. but you keep finding yourself back there. It's disappointing and it's just, it's disappointing. Yes, and what is so disappointing about you?

That no matter how hard you try, you still keep slipping up and going back. What is it about you that can't get it right and can't stop doing that? I mean, likely because I've never even recognized that it's truly been like a reoccurring problem. What kind of people try to get over these personal issues and never can, and they just keep falling back into it, falling back into it.

I'm not sure exactly. Is it like, you know, what would need to be different about you for you to make permanent change here and not keep doing that over and over? I have to stop avoiding. I would definitely need to stop avoiding it and recognize that it is a pattern and that I've just been unable to make.

any improvements for so many years and I just keep finding myself in the same kind of that that same feeling of shame and immaturity. Yeah. So if like you maybe were more mature, then you wouldn't have to keep doing this. We all make sense.

You know, it's like, we all have our failings, right? And we all have this part of us that can say, well, I come by this honestly and You know, it makes a lot of sense that I sometimes slip up and it's just part of being human. But then most people also have this other voice that comes in and says, maybe there's just something about me that's just fundamentally immature or flawed, or I didn't learn what I needed to learn in life, and that's why I keep going back there. And I want to talk to that insecure part.

the part that might just say, keep going back into this because I'm just immature and I'm just, when am I ever gonna get it right? What's wrong with me? Because how does this immature part impact the people that you love? My thought is it pushes them away gradually over time.

Do you think it makes them feel bad and hurts their feelings? I think, you know, based on just thinking about over the years and communicating even with Melissa, I think it hurts her because she feels that she... wants to be there for me but I'm not letting her be. so it's almost like a feeling of isolation even for her.

Right, so what you're telling me is, look, I see the impact. I see it's not my best self. I don't want other people to see me doing this. It threatens my ability to see myself as a rock for my family.

And it hurts my wife, and yet I still keep doing it. What does it mean about you and this insecure part that you still keep going back to it even though it does all this damage? What does that mean about you? What kind of people keep doing the same thing over and over, even though they see how much damage it creates?

Foolish ones? I mean, I just don't want that to represent who I am. You don't want to be seen as foolish. You don't want to be a fool.

At the end of all this, you don't want to look back and go, you know, Okay, I did a good job, but like all these times I kept kind of going to that frustrated place. I kept snapping at Melissa and I could never get a grip on it. You don't want to look back at that. How would you view yourself?

Is that when you say, gosh, I was such a fool that I couldn't get it right? Yeah, I mean, it's just that self-reflection where it's a lot of the words we've used to describe it. I mean, it's just this feeling of guilt. Yeah, just like I said earlier, it's just a feeling of guilt and shame and foolishness.

And it's definitely been a pattern. Okay, Julie again. So I'm just helping him get all of this uncovered and out all of the negative self beliefs around this part all the shame. I'm not creating it.

I'm not saying you are a fool, Drew. You are actually this bad person. Instead, I'm just helping him put words to what is already there. And these beliefs don't define him.

As I've said over and over, these are parts of self and If I don't help him put words to these parts, they're just going to stay stuck in there and he's going to keep dealing with it with all these insecure attachment and in his case, avoidant attachment strategies. We don't know how to deal with this stuff in a healthy way. We deal with it with insecure attachment strategies, whether avoidant or anxious or disorganized and secure attachment says, I'm not that. I have failings and I can work on those failings and I'm not defined by them though.

Even when I slip up, I'm still worthy and that's where I'm still heading with him. So let's go back in. So it's hard for you, know, if this is a place where you just kind of see yourself as a fool. Is this a part of you that you just like really hate or really despise or really don't like?

I think, yeah. I mean, I think I despise that, that, that feeling very much. I don't want it to negatively affect anyone around me. I don't want that feeling of embarrassment either.

I, yeah, but I, yeah, absolutely despise that part of me. So when you go there and this part of you gets the best of you, and again, it will, is that when you start beating yourself up? Yeah, and it's hard to recover from that too in the moment. What do you think Melissa thinks about this part of you?

I think she's a little more empathetic than I am even of my own self. I think she wants to be helpful. I think she wants to understand and wants to be let in. that's the part that is so great about her is thank God, you know, she's so empathic and can make space for you, what is the, you know, there's also this other side that gets really triggered by that part.

What do you think that triggered part of her sees in this part? you think she sees it as like a rock and all these things that you want her to view in you? I think despite any of my flaws, think she's there for me. She always has been.

And I just, you know, I'm, I'm, So what about this part of you then is so triggering for her. What messages does this part that gets the frustration gets the best of you and you snap and you say mean things. Like what is so triggering to her about that part? What is that part?

I'm sorry. What messages does that part of you send her? I think it's sending a message of for her, just inadequacy and insecurity. Right, so it sends her messages that she's inadequate and she's not safe.

And that's what these negative cycles do, right? And that's hard because that's tricky here because what you're longing for, your number one goal in this whole journey as a husband and dad is to be the rock, to be the solid, to know, you know, not to take away from Melissa's strength as a human, but to know your family can come to you in their times of need and you're gonna be there and you're strong and solid. Exactly. That every time you go to this place where you get frustrated and you snap, you're sending the opposite message.

And then on top of that, you beat yourself up for doing it. And then additionally, I think sometimes I'm able to recover quickly and admit that I was in the wrong and... I would say other times it just shuts me down. Right, because that's when you have to go in and go to this place where you're just kind of scrambling to regulate all this shame and guilt that welled up inside of you.

And I want to know what would be different if instead of beating this place up and saying it's bad. I mean, we know that some of these things that this place does sometimes has an impact, right? But what if you could say to yourself, even when I go there, even when those behaviors send the messages that aren't really coming from my heart. Even when I have these moments of weaknesses, I'm still a strong, good person.

Those places don't define me. In fact, this place that sometimes gets scared is actually part of my strength as a human. What would be different if that's where you went? And I'm not talking about not reflecting on your behavior, but it didn't have to go into this place of, here I go again, I'm a fool, I'm bad, I'm a, you all these things you tell yourself.

Would you have to go away less? I think that's accurate. I think by accepting that part of me, I think for me, I'd be more conscious and aware. of when I start to slip into that place.

And I guess my hope would be I'd be able to. just understand it a bit more and know how to recover more quickly and not let it take hold nearly as much as it did in the past. Okay, Julie here. So he fully gets it.

And what he's saying is, if I stop disavowing this part of me that gets scared and reactive, maybe I can learn to recognize it and manage it a little better when it shows up instead of just continuing this cycle of blindly reacting to it, beating myself up, apologizing and vowing to never do it again. Does that pattern sound familiar to you? Getting reactive, doing something you regret, beating yourself up, maybe apologizing or maybe just staying stuck in self-righteousness and then promising yourself you'll never do it again. Or another option, and I didn't talk to Drew about this, but another piece of this is that one way he regulates this scared part is with the perfectionism.

You know, the idea being if I can keep things orderly enough, I won't ever get frustrated and I won't have to snap to begin with. Melissa's version of that is if I'm a good enough wife and mom, I won't ever let anyone down and I won't have to feel anxious and fear abandonment and I won't have to face the part of me that believes I'm so unlovable. Anyway, lots of defensive gymnastics happening here, but the point is if you can relate to all this, the answer is to first admit your behavior problems are fear-based. Try and meet that place that gets scared.

Give it some attention before it reacts. And then plan B, when it does sometimes still react because you're human, and sometimes these fears will find you and get the best of you. Skip all the shame and instead show up for yourself and use it as a growth opportunity by examining it. Hmm, what was that fear?

When you go back to your partner to apologize, it's going to land so much better if instead of just saying, I'm sorry I snapped at you, you say, you know, I've learned to stay safe by keeping things really organized. And sometimes when things start to feel chaotic, I get really scared and I'm sorry I took my fears out on you. Okay, on that note, I'm going to keep helping Drew show up for himself and then eventually have Drew let Melissa in on this so that she can help him with all this too. so that she can reassure him that his failings don't define him, that he is her rock, even when he messes up.

You you mentioned that at the beginning, your daughter has a type A personality, right? Sounds like she's got some similar traits here where she, it's important to her to do well in life and be organized. What do you think about that part of her? Are you proud of that part of her?

Yeah, very much so. Yep. And sometimes does that part of her get scared? And what does it do when it gets scared?

think it causes, you know, her to really get upset when she gets scared. Right. And do you tell her this part of you is bad? This part of you is a fool?

No. This part of you makes you weak when you get scared? No. What do you say?

What do you, I mean, what do you at least think about that part? I want to reassure her each and every time that it's okay. you know, feeling frustrated or upset or caught up in the moment that ultimately results in that type of a sadness that it's okay to feel that way. Even when she might get snappy or lose her temper or whatever, you know, that humans do, do you still love her in that place?

Yeah, absolutely. Does it take away her goodness? Do you want her to be so overwhelmed with Shane that she actually has to go, you know, deal with it on her own and struggle through those emotions on her own? just to get through.

Would you want to know that she's doing that to herself every time she messes up? No, definitely not. No. I mean, I understand the value in healthy self-reflection.

It's just that we don't want that to go to this catastrophized place of look. And for you, it's now I'm just a fool. I'm actually not strong for my family. Why can't I get over this?

There must be just something wrong with me that I keep kind of falling back into that place every now and then. So I want you to just say to you what you would say to your daughter, which is, this part of me is not bad. This is actually a part of me to be celebrated. Yeah, sometimes it gets scared, but this part of me is strong and this part of me has so much good and value in this family.

Can you just say that out loud? Yeah, I think that that part of me is, it's not bad. It's... It is a good thing because in that moment, no matter kind of where I go and...

how hard that moment is that it's okay. How does it feel to put some words to that? new What do you think it would be like? What do you think would be different for you in this relationship?

If even in these moments when you slip up and you snap and the fear gets the best of you, what would it be like if you knew that even in those moments, Melissa could still know that you love her and see your strength? I think it would be an absolute game changer in terms of setting the tone for an entire evening, an entire day. And over time, kind of redefines how we operate as a family. So in those moments when that happens, if you knew that she was there to help you out with that place, even though we know it's triggering, it's not like we want to advocate for it.

It's always a tricky balance to find here, but even when you mess up, maybe you wouldn't have to go away and help yourself with all of it if you knew you had some help from her too. Just like I want you to be able to help her with that anxious part. Like we've done that work where we just keep reminding each other even outside of these triggered moments that even when you slip into that anxious place, Melissa, and your emotions get the best of you, I see you as competent and lovable and strong and not too much. And what would help you out, the reverse of that for you or your version of it is you can still know that I love you and I'm strong.

even when that scared part of me gets the best of me. And so I want you to ask her for that. I want you to say, can I get some reassurance from you that even in that place where my fear gets the best of me, you can still see my love for you and my strength, that it doesn't just go away. Can you just ask her for that right now?

Yeah, I think, you know... I find myself kind of falling into that place where I start to feel frustrated and upset, know, I think it, I think knowing that. knowing that you're there. in that moment with me and you still...

care and see the best in me and love me and just knowing that you're there is definitely something that I need. So I want you to just say, would you be willing right here and now to give me that reassurance? Yeah, I think about so many of those moments and I want the same thing. I want to be able to let you know that there's confidence and there's safety and that I know and we know that your love doesn't just go away and your ability to be a solid foundation doesn't just go away and that it's okay and it makes sense to be frustrated about something and that it doesn't change everything and we can handle that moment.

It's just a moment. How does that feel to some words to this and shine some light on it and then even get some reassurance from Melissa that even when you go to this place, this place doesn't take away? from your values, your strength, your love. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of reassurance in these words.

It's a feeling of safety. I mean, yeah, overall, you know, even through all the vulnerability of sharing these things, I mean, it feels promising. All right. Well, you know, I know that we've done a lot of work here, and this was really good work today, and I really appreciate you going there with me.

And, you know, this is kind of a... a hard transition, but I know you guys need to stop. And so do you mind if we just kind of take a moment and talk about what you've gotten out of this process and out of the last 20 sessions we've had together? Yeah.

Yeah, I I guess I'll kick it off. mean, I think throughout all these sessions and all the time that we've spent together and the different topics and feelings that we've kind of both discovered and kind dived into. think the depth of the relationship that Melissa and I have experienced over the last several months, I feel like it's a new beginning for the both of us. I feel that we've connected in a way that we've never truly connected before and on a level that we've never been on.

I think there's some shared understanding of some insecurities that we've held onto for a long time and maybe not communicated very clearly with one another. You know, even though we've been together for, you know, upwards of 10 plus years and I feel a sense of security in our relationship that I just never thought I would ever feel. And it's promising, it's hopeful, it's, I think, A part of me is that this is what marriage and love should feel like with a significant other. yeah, I mean, I feel very grateful to be in the position that we're in and I'm really looking forward to what comes next.

right. Well, that was really, really beautifully put. think, You know, I think for me, it's, I think about, we got together 10 years ago and there's so much connection and affection initially. And then inevitably in any relationship, these things come up and you think you're prepared to handle it.

so we, whatever challenges us, know, couples that we know, friends that we have, family that we have. It could be something big, something small, but I see us and others that we know you reach for each other and the intent is there and you want to be connected, but for so long we reached for each other in unhealthy ways. And so I think what was so impactful about this work is that you can love each other and want to be connected, but once you have this type of a toolkit, it's It's just so powerful. Like we got to know through this work ourselves better, each other better, just how to finally have success in, now I understand myself.

Now I understand you. Now you understand yourself and you understand me. So we're actually reaching for each other with success. And it just makes like we're actually connecting.

We're actually doing it. There's real, you know, actual attachment there. So we have been able to heal a lot of things. you know, like Drew said, it's really hopeful moving forward, knowing that, of course, new challenges are going to come and new growth can happen.

But you have this toolkit now of just a way more solid foundation of how to be connected to each other and attached to each other. And it's life changing. Wow, that gives me chills. Thank you.

Everybody should have that. Wouldn't it be nice if everybody had that? I'm so, so glad that the two of you do. And I'm so grateful that you did this process and agreed to do this.

And you both done just an incredible job. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. The feeling is mutual. From the bottom of our heart, thank you.

This is, you can't put words or value. It's such a gift that that you've given us. And that you guys have given the world. Thank you for the opportunity.

You're so welcome. All right. Well, this is not goodbye because we'll see each other next week. Yeah.

So I'm looking forward to that. But it's been a journey. Thank you. You're welcome.

All right, we'll end for now. All right, well, there you go. The end of the session and what Melissa just said when she said we're reaching to each other with success. What she's saying is we're having success with vulnerability.

know, people say to me all the time, well, what happens when you have couples who are just fighting in the session the whole time? And The truth is I don't have that problem. Maybe that's hard to believe, but it's the truth. Even the couples who come to me with the biggest, nastiest fights ever outside of here aren't going to fight inside of here because I know how to create safety and help them say what they need to say without having to be reactive, which is what fighting is.

It's not having another option besides reactivity. I lean into anger. Anger that is ignored or sugarcoated will only get worse. but I give it space that doesn't have to be reactive.

And the opposite of reactivity is vulnerability. So first I just get safety on board so everyone knows they're going to be heard. And then I contain reactivity by fully hearing them without them having to be reactive. And then from there, I get them into a place of vulnerability.

And then I have them speak to each other outside of reactivity. and inside of vulnerability. And so all of what I just described is, the simplest of terms, helping couples successfully escape negative cycles by being successful with vulnerability. And to come full circle, that is exactly what Melissa just said, that she said we have these skills to understand each other, and they have the skills to understand each other because they've learned how to really show up with each other vulnerably.

That's what I've been doing with them for 20 weeks in a nutshell, is giving them success with vulnerability and not so much teaching them exactly what to say at home. They're picking that up by getting the new experiences of vulnerability in the therapy sessions. And as their ability to be vulnerable has increased, their understanding of themselves as individuals and each other increases. the symptoms of their problems at home decrease.

So if you're doing this work at home, I hope that this journey has helped you. If nothing else, see you, your partner, and your relationship with more clarity and empathy and understanding. And beyond that, by doing so, I hope that you've also noticed a decrease in symptoms. I describe that as fewer negative cycles, less intense negative cycles, more positive cycles, and faster repair.

And then for today's session, here's what I want you to take from this. The next time you get triggered, recognize it and say to yourself, what am I so afraid of right now? See if you can find the fear and put words to it. Then say, how can I help this fear without reacting blindly to it?

What's a better way to help the scared part of me right now? You might want to reach to your partner and talk about the fear. You might want to just take a moment to soothe yourself. But the real work from today goes beyond that.

What about the moments when the fear does get the best of you and you do react? You react angrily or you say something mean or you get desperate to be heard or you text your partner a thousand times to get a response or whatever you do. How are you going to treat this part of you that is just trying to find something healthy? Connection or safety or a sense of control, these are all healthy drives.

you know, healthy things that humans need. How are you going to treat this part of you that goes a little too far and even though it's a drive for something healthy, it goes a little too far and it gets scared and it acts out? Are you going to say, I hate you, you're bad and you need to go away and never come back? Or are you going to be able to give yourself some self-compassion and say, I'm not bad, I got scared, the fear got the best of me?

and then say something to your partner like, know, the fear got the best of me again, and I apologize for how that impacted you, and I'm going to work on my part of this, and you know, to do that, what would really help me is to know that even though I really messed up, you can still see me as lovable and worthy in that place. And this is couples helping each other out. And if you want more help with this, also... mentioned that I did a shame recording a couple weeks ago or a shame workshop that is available on my website, thesecurerelationship.com.

It's another resource to help you with this shame work as well as a ton of other resources on my website. So anyway, that brings us to the end of the episode and thank you again to Melissa and Drew for doing this vulnerable work with all of us. Please don't forget to join us. next week for a live Q &A with Melissa and Drew.

That's going to be Monday, December 2nd, 2 p.m. Pacific, 3 p.m. Mountain, 4 p.m. Central, 5 p.m.

Eastern. And then that's going to be aired the next day for next week's last episode with Melissa and Drew. And then we're going to be moving into season two with Bethany and Brian in January. So if you're getting a lot out of this, please help me get the word out to couples in need.

by leaving a five-star review on Apple or Spotify. And thank you for listening. Thank you to Melissa and Drew, and I'll see everybody next week.

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