Unpacking the Journey: A Live Q&A with Melissa, Drew, and Julie

In this episode

In this special live Q&A, Melissa and Drew reflect on why they took part, their initial anxieties, and what 20 sessions of couples therapy gave them. They describe the difference between a negative cycle and a positive one in the body, and how putting words to the old health-trauma wound from the twins' birth brought lasting healing and repair. Julie explains why her Emotionally Focused Therapy approach avoids conflict in session, and all three take questions from the live audience.

Key takeaways

• Melissa and Drew can now feel the physical difference between a negative cycle (tension, fear) and a positive one (calm, safety).
• The most healing moment was finally putting words to the birth and hospitalization trauma they hadn't discussed in nearly three years.
• The turning point came when Drew could voice that the health trauma was hard for him too, so Melissa no longer carried the fear alone.
• Julie explains her EFT approach deliberately avoids re-enacting conflict in session, fostering connection and healing instead.
• They share what they're still working on, moments that never aired, and a teaser for Season 2 with a new couple, Bethany and Brian.

Read the full transcript

All right, well, hello, everyone. Thank you all for coming. This is great. This is nice little intimate group.

And welcome, Melissa and Drew. So I am just going to jump in here. So what we're going to do is I'm going to ask you guys some questions, kind of break the ice. And then we're going to take questions from the audience.

And I think some people just want to kind of give you some love and say thank you for doing this, because it's just been so beneficial to so many people. So, all right. So do you guys have any questions for me before we go in? I don't think so.

right. All right. So the first thing I want to talk about is, you know, we have these negative cycles and you guys remember, you know, because you're, you know, you're still going to have them from time to time. Like, you know, the feeling of going into this negative cycles, right?

You know, that feeling in your body, correct? Yes, definitely. the dark feeling, the tension, the anxiety, the deflatedness. And so I wanna know, do you know now what it's like in your body to feel a positive cycle?

when it goes more into that place where you're not just kind of damage control, but you're actually using a trigger to have a bonded feeling? I'll start. think, yeah, just plain and simple for me, the differences of like, instead of fear and anxiety and worry, the immediate feeling is just calm and safety. that's...

the first physical response is it's just like diffusing a bomb. Okay. And you notice a difference. Like you notice that, you know, there's one of two paths you can go and these things happen.

You can either go into that yucky place or the calm place. And I love that you know that feeling and I love that you know how to get to it now. Yeah, definitely. All right, how about you, Drew?

You don't have to answer if you don't want. No, I'm happy to. Okay. I definitely think that experiencing a positive cycle has been a little bit different over the last few months, just because usually the negative cycles that we found ourselves in, they last for so long.

So to be able to quickly kind of attack that early on with You know, a response where, know, if, if Melissa's, you know, feeling frustrated or, know, it's, it's something that's triggering a cycle. You know, we're able to kind of validate that and just kind of be, be in that moment for one another. And, and I think just being able to work through that and know that it's okay to, to, kind of go to that place. It's that's, that's what's been so different over the last few months since we've started working together.

you know, to be able to just kind of connect with one another in that way. And then, you know, start and, and, and, just, like I said earlier, you know, kind of validate that and then, and then start to talk about it versus trying to move past it so quickly or, know, Hey, I totally get it. Let's just, let's just move past that and move on. that that's been, that's been the biggest difference.

And I would say because of that we've, we've had much less, you know, kind of turmoil between the two of us, you know, since we've started to be equipped with the tools to enable us to work past it and work through some of this. All right, beautiful. All right, well, thank you for that. So next question I have, we started off, you know, talking about a lot about, you know, one of the major themes of our work together was the stuff that happened between the two of you when the boys were born and you had the health.

trauma to navigate together. you know, from my perspective, we didn't, we hit it maybe two or three different times, maybe even more than that, that I don't remember. But from my perspective, it feels like there's a lot of settling and healing around that simply because some words were put to it in a new way. And then on top of that, what I think is the most healing is that you probably can talk about it now.

in a healing way with each other instead of going into a negative cycle, just trying to talk about it. But I might be wrong. So I want to hear what you guys have to say about that wound, if you don't mind. my gosh, for sure.

I think that was just one thing where because of that, every little thing. was a crisis because your body, my body, you know, for Drew, for both of us, something small would come up and no matter what it was, no matter how large, how small, unrelated, related, it all just immediately sends you physically, mentally, emotionally into fight or flight right away. And so without ever having a chance to heal that, everything is zero to 60. then you never have a chance to, right.

You never have a fighting chance. It just, everything goes there because you're just filled with fear all the time. so having a chance to heal some of that has been incredibly powerful. and it's been a game changer, think.

Okay. Amazing. And you know, do you feel like you can, you know, if any of that energy starts to come up in you, Do you feel like there's a safe space, and this could be true for both of you, a safe space to bring that up and just kind of get a little more comfort around it if you need it, or be able to say, hey, this is one of those moments when some of those old fears are coming up. Does that feel like it could be a safe conversation?

Yeah, I definitely think so. That session was one of the more impactful ones, at least for me, because this has been a topic that's that we really haven't spoken about in, I mean, nearly three years. So to be able to put words to, you know, to how each other were feeling at that time, I mean, that was, that was remarkable and something completely new. that, that, you know, as you kind of put it earlier, really did create a lot of healing for the two of us.

And, you know, I feel, feel like even now if If we reflect on that, like it's just, it's, it's a lot of, it's a much safer conversation to have than it was prior. Okay. And so for, you know, for listeners out there who are kind of struggling with these wounds of their own, what do you think was so healing? What, what worked?

I, to be honest, like it was no secret that I was feeling all the feelings and spiraling with fear. mean, that was. out there all of the time. mean, that was very evident.

I think the game changer was, you know, we had that session with Drew and he was able to finally put words to, hey, there's, there is a lot going on for me too, because I think it had always felt like I'm feeling all the things and I'm carrying all the feeling, fear and feeling, and this is so hard and I'm desperate for you to see that and join me in it and just to know that like, this is impacting you. This is hard for you. And just to be able to hear him put words to it, whatever is going on for him and to be able to join him in that and be there for him. It's not like I needed him to go through it in a certain way, but just to whatever way be able to be there for him and know that he is experiencing it.

And like we discovered in that session, I don't even think he ever was equipped with the tools to identify it within himself. And so for us to like go through that, for him to go through it individually, for us to go through it together, I think that to me felt like a huge game changer. I don't know what you think. It was a little bit of almost facing myself in a sense to have the courage to even talk about it and spend the time to go to some places that, that I've just never, never been to before.

And to be able to put words to it, it was definitely something new. And, and again, I think, you know, I was definitely just one of the more impactful sessions and, know, I'm very thankful for, you know, the poking and prodding that you did to get us where we needed to go. My aggressive poking and pot. You can't escape it, can you?

All right. Well, thank you so much. think what I hear is two things. One, Drew, just being able to find these places in yourself was healing for you.

And then I'm guessing that being able to find them in yourself actually increased your capacity to empathize with Melissa because sometimes what we have to do is when we're kind of running away from our own emotions. That's how we're trying to get our partner to feel better too, is help them run away from their emotions, right? And helping them in the way we help ourselves. And then Melissa, what I'm hearing is that, you know, just knowing that you weren't alone in it was probably the most healing part of all, is that you weren't alone in it.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Well, thank you for that. And, you know, I think This I've probably maybe have already sort of asked this. We'll ask it in a new way. Just kind of starting with either one of you, what was the most impactful piece of the work that we did together?

Big question. You know what? Okay, I'm going to give you two options. You can either answer that question or you answer option B, which is if you had advice for listeners out there after you've gone through this process, what would your advice be?

That's a great question. Yeah, I can dig into it. I definitely think that what was most impactful from my perspective is just taking the time and having the patience really just to listen to your partner. I think it comes down to, never really had the tools to be able to validate how Melissa has felt all these years.

I think I've definitely been very guilty of avoiding a lot of it. So to be able to tackle, tackle any, any thing that comes our way in a new way is it's, it's refreshing. It's, it's, you know, it's very valuable to be able to do that. And so it's, it's not about solving the problem.

Like I've, like I've done so quickly in the past, it's really, really just about being there with her in that moment and, and, you know, just making sure that she feels safe. no matter what's going on. And I think to be able to do that has definitely been, I think the most impactful, at least it's proving to be the most impactful over the last few months where we've tried to turn negative cycles into positive ones. All right, beautiful.

And I want to ask one more follow-up question to that. Do you recognize that part of your ability to comfort her is showing up? yourself with not just comforting her emotions, but showing up with your own, you know, when the timing is right. Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I think it's a matter of, you know, I think it's just a matter of it's just me accepting that it's okay to let others in. Sure. If I find myself struggling a little bit too. Yeah.

And I just want to say this, you know, some people are just always going to need more emotional help than others. You know, we're all different. You know, the most important part is are we willing to take in emotional help and give emotional help? And to me, it seems like the willingness is there.

I mean, there is truth to the fact that you might never need emotional support as much as Melissa, right? But are you able to let her in when you're really stuck and you're really struggling? Does that make sense? It does.

Yeah. All right. Does that help you feel like, I have permission to kind of like not always have to talk about every feeling I have? Yeah, I definitely think so.

And I think it's it's it's also it's also kind of relieving because it's it's a it's a connection that I've always struggled with, you know, in our relationship together. And I don't know, it's almost like there's always been somebody there that's willing to kind of share that burden a little bit, too. And that's it's a It's just not something that I've been able to recognize. Okay.

So you're saying it's relieving to know that you don't have to carry it all on your own. Yeah, definitely. Okay, beautiful. All right.

Okay, Melissa? Yeah, I think, I guess I would take it from both like what was most impactful and what I would recommend for people. I think it's exactly the words that you just said is willingness. think, you know, if you had asked me three years ago, two years ago, like, Hey, do you have this kind of hope?

Do you think, you know, things are gonna ever be this way in the future for you guys? I don't know that I would have been able to answer that with confidence. But I think the one thing I can say is just, if you can come to the Like first I would approach it and say, we have to do this. We have to try that.

We have to get this right because you have that, for me, I have that performance achievement. You have to get it right so that we can be safe and we can be okay. But if you can just come to the table with your partner with willingness and be open to, for me, it was incredibly impactful. Each of us working on ourselves, learning about the fears we have.

the ways that we were wired from early on, just really, really facing that. And then being able to come together and say, okay, let's try something different. Let's try something new. So I don't think it's like, hey, we have to try this one thing and then everything is gonna come out perfectly in the end.

It's no, we're willing to. learn about ourselves, learn about each other, grow together, try new things. And if that willingness is there, that's when the safety and the growth can really happen. And I think that's what was impactful about this process.

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like willingness plus skills, knowing what to do. Yeah.

And solve anything. Yeah. And I just want to put this out there that you guys were just so willing to be vulnerable. And I mean, there's some really uncomfortable stuff.

Both of you just really hung in there and were able to kind of stay with me. And I just really appreciate that. You guys did a Well, we also appreciate you. mean, you never felt, you know, it just always felt like us chatting with you.

And you really helped us, you know. through it all, so it felt easy, hard, but easy, right? Yeah. Well, that's my goal, is to make hard work feel safe.

So I'm glad I was able to help in that regard. And I think just one thing I want to add is I think both of you will agree that this really was as much self-work as it was relationship work. Absolutely. I think at first you come to the table and for me, I came to the table and I'm like, this needs, you know, fixed in our relationship and we have to do this.

And here's the list of things. And then your work and your method and the conversations we had with you has a way of pulling out. Like you can't achieve that even if sure it does need to be done. There's no way to achieve it without.

doing the work within yourself. Yep, absolutely. All right, well, that's all I've got for the two of you. Thank you so much.

let me have, let's open it up to the audience. Let me check my chats. we have Nina here. So Katrina, is it okay to let Nina go?

Okay. I sent in a question. Do you want me to read that out? Yeah, please.

Okay. The first thing I would like to say is just thank you to you, Melissa and Drew, for being willing to go through this in this public format. Getting to listen to you share your experiences has felt like an amazing privilege to be able to witness that. And it's been so helpful to me, both as part of a partnership and as an individual.

So I just really want to thank you for being willing to do that. And then Julie, you too, thank you so much for being willing to do this. I think it has to be vulnerable as a therapist as well to do this publicly. So thank you for being willing to do that and all the healing that you, all three of you have brought by doing this.

You're very welcome from my end. Thank you, Nina, for those beautiful words. And then my question is for both of you, Melissa and Drew. And I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what brought you both to the point of being willing to get some help for your relationship.

By the time you got to the podcast, you both seemed very open to change and wanting things to get better. But I was curious about what happened behind the scenes to get to that point. How did you both get... to the place where you were willing to do the podcast and really able and willing to show up and do the work.

Thank you first for your kind words that had me a little teary eyed there. I'm so grateful we could connect in this way. And second of all, I'll start and then I'll let Drew answer. think that's such a great question.

So we've been together for over 10 years and You know, in the beginning we're dating, it's just us and things are so great and we're so connected. And then we had our daughter and I think we had normal first time parent struggles, which we thought were super hard at the time. But I think we just got hit with this. You know, you're asking like what, really was going on behind the scenes.

And just to be honest with you, like we talked a lot with Julie about these, like this major hospital wound with our son, but how nice it would be if that was the only thing, but it honestly was a series of just these unbelievable life events. We had challenges when our daughter was born. We right away lost Drew's dad very unexpectedly. Then we had a move across the country.

We were without a house, living with my parents for a time. We had job. worries and financial worries and then we had a miscarriage. We found out we were unexpectedly having twins and then we had a lot of medical issues with not just one of the boys but with both of the boys.

So I think it just really had landed us in this place of everything was so urgent and fear-based and we were just... You find yourself in a place where you never dream that... that you could be, here's this person you love, it's your best friend, and you're just so cold and distant and disconnected and fighting all the time. And you wanna figure it out and you wanna connect, but you just, for me, I remember feeling like I wanna take care of our kids and our home, and I wanna be connected, but I don't even know how anymore.

I don't know how to make it day to day. Every interaction we had was... Awful and and it's not what we wanted to be we wanted to reconnect but we just didn't know how and we were reaching a crisis point where you know, we were looking at each other saying if if we can't figure this out, we're just not going to make it because a relationship can't sustain this many hits and and we're just we've gone so long without being connected. So we've we need help.

We we've got to figure this out and You know, think that was, you know, like Julie had asked, that was the critical moment where you look at your partner and that's the essential moment, right? Where you say, do you want to work on this? Yes or no. And thankfully for both of us, the answer was, yeah, we don't want, we need to end this current state and find a new one and try new things.

So yeah, that was the behind the scenes of. of what led us to be willing and open. But Drew, do you have anything different? I think how Melissa, excuse me, summarized that was pretty accurate.

mean, I just, I think the interactions that we had together, if we were trying to come out of a hole that we dug ourselves in or it was an argument or whatever the case may be, our connection was empty. just because of the, I think, you how we define now what a negative cycle is. I mean, we were just perpetually stuck in them. And so, you know, being able to, again, kind of work with Julie over the last several months and to be able to, you know, really rediscover, you know, our relationship and define that and, you know, be able to put words to some of those harder moments.

I mean, that was the real game changer. But, know, in terms of what led us to where we were, mean, I just, yeah, I mean, life events, new, being new parents, mean, new jobs, new, new, new, just about everything. And it was just, you know, think it just came about very fast, like life usually does. And so to be able to, you know, seek out some, some help and some guidance has, has really just completely turned things around.

And, you know, I would agree with Melissa. mean, it, definitely. it definitely saved our relationship. And I want to add one more thing.

We talked about this with Julie in one session. We tried couples therapy and it was, maybe Julie can help me out, the style of it. It was just like we Googled and we found- cognitive behavioral? Wasn't it?

Okay. Yes. That's what I remember. And we got these like really high level, I don't know, we read a couple things, she gave us a few assignments and I think we were just so far into our struggles, like it just wasn't enough to help us.

this, you know, the things that like Julie's method and these strategies was just completely different to have each of us really understanding ourselves. understanding the cycles, just really the whole framework behind it was new and different and the game changer that we needed. Yeah. All right.

Thank you so much, both of you. I'm going to go ahead and move forward here. OK, I'm going to go ahead and ask This one, Melissa and Drew, how has this work improved your relationships with your children and impacted your family dynamic? I think that's a great question.

Yeah, Melissa is pointing at me and smiling as if she already knows what I'm going to say. But I think it's enabled a presence that at least in the both of us, but especially within myself that just hasn't really been there for a long time. you know, I think the, presence that I, that I have around, you know, not only Melissa, but, our three kids, it's, you know, I, if it feels real, it feels genuine. you know, I'm, I'm in a much better place, mentally, you know, no, no matter if I'm, if I'm at work or at home, you know, I don't, I don't feel that void that's, that's, that's, that's always been there, for so long and that, that discouragement or sadness or anger.

that we've talked so much about in our sessions over the last few months. But I think that's really been a remarkable change in our family dynamics is just the presence that I think both Melissa and I have, because when you're on the same page with your partner, especially if you're a parent, the kids pick up on that. And I definitely have noticed, way more engagement and happiness and just, you know, a lot more, just a lot more playful, fun kids. you know, that's really just been, it's to the point now where you look forward to that.

You know, I want to be home and I want to, you know, interact and play with them. And it's just, it's been quite a turnaround, I'll say that. Yeah, I love this question so much. And this has been a topic.

between the two of us because I really feel like this is the next step in our journey is continuing this work, focusing it and now applying a lot of this into our parenting because when we really started having the bulk of these issues, your kids are baby, our kids were babies. And so the parenting is they need a bottle, they need help, like we had these medical concerns, but now... Wow, it is so humbling when you have a child, a human being who it activates things in you when your child is having a tantrum, when they are screaming uncontrollably, when they are sad, when they are mad, all normal childhood things. you, the work Julie had us focus within ourselves, there's no way to separate your parenting out from that because you have these reactions and responses when your kid is hitting their sibling or lying to your face or these inevitable things that children do because they're children.

And so previously, I think we were continuing that fight or flight response, even in our parenting, because you're just so scared. Well, what if my kid grows up this way? You're catastrophizing these fears. And so now even the ability to regulate ourselves or co-regulate each other is a gift for our children because we're able to show up for them and begin teaching them these skills of noticing the emotions that they're experiencing and how to practice that regulation within themselves.

And I really think that's gonna be the next step in our learning and our journey. is focusing this work into our parenting. Wow, thank you for that. That was a beautiful answer.

I couldn't have said that better myself. All right, so Jackie, you are on. Go ahead and ask your question. Yes, hopefully you can hear me.

Yes, you're loud and clear. I also want to reiterate my gratitude actually to all three of you for the vulnerable exposure on a public podcast, particularly how you graciously and effectively preserved some of your extended family relationships when things got a little tricky. That was impressive. And my question is to Drew, and hopefully this makes sense.

There was one session, possibly two, in particular, where Julie asked you drew essentially the same question or version of the same question multiple times. It was at least five times, maybe six. And Julie's question was along the lines of what is or what was it like for you? And can you access that emotion or experience and describe what it's like for you kind of on the inside?

That was the question. And I remember feeling surprised by the slow repetition of the same thing, including repetition of your same answers for the entire session, until there was a really beautiful moment nearer the end when it all came together. And so Drew, if you remember any sessions where Julie kind of kept you in one space asking about your experience or emotion, over and over and over again. I want to know, was the repetition or redundancy difficult for you in any manner?

If it was difficult, can you elaborate? And if her repetition or redundancy was helpful, would you elaborate? Yeah. Yeah, I re I remember those sessions pretty well.

And, you know, those are those are some kind of emotional spaces that I've never really, I've always avoided them. So to put words to them and to try to not only articulate how I was feeling, but to be there and to be in that moment, that was hard. That was very hard. I think part of it is I wanted to get out of that.

space pretty quickly and you know I applaud Julie because you know she definitely wouldn't let me. I think part of it was you know kind of defining that place and how it felt. So to be able to work through that and to learn some things about myself that I've never been able to put into words. I think I'm grateful for it, it was also, you know, it was very, very difficult.

It's difficult even now to think back and, you know, kind of even talk about it and address it. But I don't know if I answered your question too well. But I think being able to... go in those places and live in that place during some of these sessions.

And then to come out of it and have the tools to move forward is, yeah, it's something I'm very thankful and grateful for. Right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Drew, for that.

All right, we have Sean. I would also like to thank both of you for this. started by reading the Secure Love book and that in itself was eye-opening. But when I started listening to the podcast, everything in the book was brought to life in a way that just made it so much more relevant and so much more, I guess, real.

And it was amazing just to hear you work through everything. One of the things I noticed about know, the 20 sessions was there was a big focus on shame, which, you know, I can relate to personally. you know, Drew, I wanted to know what did it feel like to have, or to kind of shine a light on the shame that you've been carrying around probably for a lot of your life. And, you know, how is addressing that shame impacted your life?

or your relationship with Melissa and also with your family. Great question. Yeah, I think being able to put words to some of it, I kind of touched on it earlier a little bit. I think it's just enabled me to kind of let Melissa in a little bit more than I ever have before.

And knowing that she's there to be with me in some of those moments and to be there for me. I think that's definitely been I would say something new for me. And I've always guarded that place pretty well. I've never really given Melissa even the opportunity to understand how I felt.

So to be able to put words to some of the shameful feelings and I would say very difficult to do, very difficult to... kind of put myself in a place where, you I have to admit some things that most would want to avoid and run the other way. you know, my love for Melissa is just something that I wanted to prioritize and put first. And, you know, I knew that she wanted to be there with me, you know, whenever she can be.

I think that's... I would say, again, I don't know if I'm answering the questions too well, but I would say that's how I would respond to some of that. You're doing a great job, Drew. And I want to ask, I'm going to follow that up with, did you learn that shining a light on shame and putting some words to it actually isn't as bad as we all fear it will be?

No, not at all. I think it enabled me to discover a part of myself that I just needed to address. I think it was holding me back. And I think by being able to open up and truly be vulnerable, but most importantly, was being vulnerable with Melissa.

And that's what gave me the courage and the strength to be able to do that. Beautiful. Thank you, Drew. Okay, let's go ahead and go to Tiffany.

Awesome. Okay. Well, I have several questions, but I'll just maybe submit or ask the most recent one. This is both for Melissa Andrew.

Now that you've gone through the therapy, I'm curious, do you guys have like scheduled check-ins? Like what system do you have in place so that maybe you don't fall back into some old ways? I'll go ahead and answer that. We have not discussed that yet.

I'm not sure that they're going to need that. think that they have what they need to go forward and repair as they go. But I do plan to do like a follow up with them. Listen, Drew, we haven't talked about this yet.

I'm sure you guys will be OK with it. But a follow up with them in a few months just to kind of check in and see how they're going. And should they need any support, then I'll make sure that they get. what they're needing.

Do you agree with me, Melissa and Drew, that you two are pretty well equipped going forward, or is that something you're concerned about? And I say that based on my experience with other couples. I would agree. I think that we have...

Just an entire toolkit. So like, I think I kind of came into this thinking like, here's this issue and that issue, and we need to work through this and work through that. But I think that what we actually found was, you know, there wasn't any session where it was just focused on like diving into issue after issue. When you start to ask different questions, like, well, why are you having these recurring issues or like, how are you getting into this negative cycle?

And then you really understand yourself. You understand your partner. You have just an entirely new capacity to connect. You have the tools that you need.

I think we feel more like, yes, things are going to arise in the future. know how to get ahold of you. I know where to find me. Yeah, we just have better skill set.

Yeah, that's good. Well, and I also noticed that validation was a really big thing for you, Melissa. I'm curious if you guys can speak more to how you show up for each other, specifically in validation. Yeah, think that's something where we, that's a huge one for me.

And I know that. That was really helpful to learn about myself. but it's definitely crucial for both of us. And I think it's going to continue to be a work in process.

I wouldn't say that we've perfected it, but I think we have an incredible amount of awareness that we didn't have before. so even if there, I'm even thinking of a few things over the last couple of weeks where we missed the chance to get it perfect and get it right, so to speak. but we at least know enough now to circle back to that and say like, hey, this validation didn't happen perfectly the way I would have wanted it to in the moment, but I really still want you to know that I see that, I understand that, that makes sense to me. I really wanna make some time later or tomorrow that we can talk through that because I really want you to feel.

and understood and safe. And so I think that'll be one that I hope continues to grow and evolve over time. But even just knowing that we have that and that we prioritize that has been a game changer. All right, thank you.

Okay, let's go to Barbara. Hi. Hi, Hi, Julie and Melissa and Drew. I'm calling here from Australia, as you can probably hear from my voice.

Again, I say the same for everybody. There's so much gold in this podcast. And I just love you guys, honestly. Amazing.

One of my main questions is, Fairy tales have always talked about this naive notion of happily ever after and the idea that you just find that one right person and then you ride off on the white horse and everything's fine forever and ever. And I wonder now having done all this work, whether you have a different sense of that kind of world that's not naive but is grounded in something more solid. Great question. Yeah, that's such a great question.

And so great to meet you. Barbara has been making the most beautiful comments on the Instagram post every time we put out a reel. So I really appreciate you, Barbara. You have a lot of really important, beautiful words of wisdom.

So go ahead, Melissa. Sorry to cut you off. That's such a great question. I tend between the two of us to be more of the hopeful, optimistic, romantic.

So I would say, know, my belief in all of those things will continue to hold strong. I think maybe what has changed for me is the depth of understanding of how that all comes to be. I think that there can be a happily connected, long, enduring, loving, relationship with someone. think there can be a happy happily ever after.

I think what this process gave us was the ability to see that it's not going to be achieved through fear or shutting down. It's not just going to happen because we're together, you know, just because we have a house and a family and friends and you know, all of the different check boxes checked, I think it's the understanding that it's really being there for ourselves and being there for each other and learning these things and being willing to continue to learn over time. I think that's what's going to bring the true happiness and whatever comes next. But Drew, I don't know what you what would be your input.

Yeah, not too much more. I think just the depth of our relationship that this has provided, think it's deeper connection between the two of us that I guess I never thought we would reach. And then I think the resiliency that is going to probably be realized as we continue to have less and less negative cycles and create more positive ones. is going to set us up to be able to, you know, better manage, you know, the, the, the life events that, that life throws us.

And, you know, that's, that's something I'm optimistic and hopeful for, being able to, you know, be on a level with, with Melissa like we've never been before. So I don't know if that'll, you know, lead us to the, the ideal state of happily ever after, but I can tell you, we're one step closer, which feels really good. Yay. All right.

Well, thank you, Barbara. A couple of questions I'll read here. Question from Lucy is a great question. How do you, me, Julie, think you handle differently a recorded session compared to a not recorded session?

I handle it exactly the same. I go into a place in my head where I'm completely in my zone. there is a little part of me that's filtering for confidentiality stuff. I've noticed with my second season couple, they're using aliases and a couple times I've noticed they've said the wrong name and I do catch that.

So apparently there is a part of my brain that is meta, but for the most part, I'm just in my zone doing what I do. think it would be very, I'm so deep in presence and concentration that it would be very difficult for me to be aware of the fact that it's recording and doing the work on the level that I'm doing it energetically at the same time. So I am absolutely absorbed. And then we have another question over here, which I think is a good one.

This is for Melissa and Drew. Did you listen to the podcast episodes? And if so, did you find value in Julie's comments to the podcast audience helpful even beyond the therapy session itself? In many instances, I thought Julie's comments and explanations were so useful that I found myself wishing Julie were giving these same explanations in the session.

I had some curiosity about that too. I don't think that you guys listened. I could be wrong. But yeah, I was wondering about the comments too.

was like, I wonder if that would have helped them progress. I don't know. So you tell me. Yeah, I mean, we, I think, I think there's a part of me that wants to go back and listen, but I'll be completely transparent.

We haven't, we haven't actually gone through and listen, listen back through the podcasts or the commentary. yeah, we, you, you had, don't know if you recall this, but you had said early on, I think it was one of the first, you know, first, second or third sessions. said, Hey, I'm just going to suggest that you don't listen as we go along. and that we just do this.

do this work authentically and then go back. And so I think I kind of held that in my mind. Like I saw a couple snippets here and there that, you know, on things that you would post, but I've kind of been reading like, okay, we'll complete this process. And I would like to go back and listen and hear it all over again.

But yeah, I haven't listened to it yet. Yeah, I'll be honest. As we work through all the sessions, doesn't, I mean, I'll be, I mean, I completely forgot that you know, we were, we were kind of podcasting all of this and because it just felt like a, just felt like a virtual conversation between us. Yeah.

That's a good, that's good. So where you weren't super aware either of the recording when it was going on. No, the whole time it just felt like we were, I mean, part of it too. Like we just, it's insane.

We would drop our kids off and leave them at And then we would rush in and get our whole set up and make sure that we were on time. And so I think once we finally got here in a quiet space and we saw you, was like very, we were just connected in a conversation with you. It never felt like, we're podcasting with listeners. We were just talking and getting into the work.

Right. Yeah. I think the work is so consuming. It is hard, think, to be in those two different head spaces.

All right. So Katrina, do we have anyone else? I have some here in the Q &A. Someone says to me, do you think that the transcript would be just as useful for someone to read versus listen?

I have a reluctant partner who doesn't listen. Yeah, I think the transcripts, mean, you know, there's lost inflection and tone and won't be as probably as emotionally alive. But yeah, I don't I think there's a lot of really good stuff in there. Whether you read it or listen.

I noticed that you Julie have been so self compassionate as a particular as a practitioner, I was particularly impacted by the session that you brought your own supervisor on. I am so grateful for the example and generosity of this which has changed me as a practitioner, Julie, how have you felt? your self-change in this journey. I mean, I think I'm definitely a better therapist because I have gone through all of these sessions with the fine tooth comb and it's allowed me to see my own blocks or areas where I should have, wish I would have done something different and just really, I would listen to those sessions over and over and over again and just started to really pick up different things that I have not previously picked up in other sessions.

So, and then working with George, of course, was tremendously helpful. So yes, I definitely feel like a better therapist. I also feel like I'm a little more like in the moment as far as well, hey, this is going out to a lot of people. I might completely screw up and make an absolute fool of myself.

well, here we go. I just kind of have to step back from that and say, at least I know some people are being helped by this and that's all I'm here to do. So I guess it has helped me. I don't know, maybe paradoxically it's relieved pressure from me as opposed to put more pressure on me because what are you going to do?

It's like the worst case scenario, right? You're out there and putting yourself out there publicly and you realize, it's not really so bad. And I always think too, look, if I mess up, that's okay. I can tell people, hey, here's what I wish I would have done differently or here's, you know, yeah.

So it's just, I think it's every, you know, there's a phrase that's all grist for the mill. And it feels to me like no matter what, something useful and helpful is gonna come out of it. even if I make the biggest mistake ever, as long as I circle back and highlight that mistake and say why it's a mistake and what we can do better next time and kind of circle it back to the couple. So.

Okay, here's a good one. It's understandable going into this that it's easy to have an attitude that my partner needs to be fixed. This obviously sets the accused partner up for defensiveness and the accusing partner up for being unable to see their role. Was it a diffusing relief to understand from Julie that both partners play a role in the cycles?

I love the idea that this is both of you against the cycle. versus each of you against each other. Yeah, I definitely think that that's the case for sure. I think we both went into this and as we are even discovering what our negative cycles were, I think we, I mean, we're both putting in the time and the effort to be here for one another.

So I think it's understandable as we did all this work that there's different perspectives and we were able to really shine a light on that. So yeah, I definitely think so. Yeah, it is such a relief. When you are both showing up, when you provide that freedom and that safety, think there were a lot of times where you would keep asking and diving deeper.

like Drew said, those were really tough moments, but really critical moments of understanding, On the surface, seems like one person just wants to be right, but what is it that you're actually afraid of about your own self or about this relation? Like what is the meaning that you're assigning to this? And I think when you try to dive into that and you work through that, it brings you closer together, but it brings you a better understanding of yourself, of each other. I, yeah, it's a huge relief.

Okay, here's another question. How to validate the anger. I found this to be really interesting and powerful tool. While I have Secure Love book and have listened to the podcast, can you speak more about how to validate the anger?

When my partner retreats and avoids me, I don't know how to validate his anger. Okay, so just to put this out there, I had an opportunity to update the book. for what was going to be the paperback edition, but turns out they're not taking it to paperback yet. They're going to keep it out there as hardcover, which is actually a good thing.

But they did allow those updates in the book to go into the reprint. And I did, to come full circle, I did add more about validating anger to the updated version. how to validate your partner's anger? First, you need to be able to validate your own anger.

And remember, anger is like, hey, my anger has something important to say. It's saying to me something isn't right, something needs to change here. That anger is, it's a clue to me that something's not working. And the way to speak to that anger isn't just to kind of react blindly to it.

or to stuff it away because you quote unquote shouldn't be so mad, which what usually what happens is people will alternate between stuffing, exploding, stuffing, exploding. And instead it's just kind of stepping back and going, you know what, I have a really good reason to be angry right now. I need to just honor that. You know, I'm not sure what needs to change.

Sometimes my perception of what needs to change might be a little off, but I need to just kind of sit with this. This is a healthy drive. Anger is always is a drive for something healthy, right? We might not know what that is.

That's why it's so important to listen to it. And once you can kind of do that with yourself, it's much easier to step into your partner's world, you know, when they're angry and say, look, I get that you're angry. There's something really important about your anger. has something important to say.

And, you know, I trust that your body wouldn't be feeling anger if something important wasn't happening. That doesn't mean that you're validating the way they're sharing their anger, right? The way they're sharing their anger might be reactive and you might need to set some assertion around that, which might sound like, hey, at the same time, the way that you're kind of showing up right now and the way that you're expressing this anger doesn't work for me because when it comes at me like that, then I get overwhelmed and I can't, but your anger, I want to hear more about that, right? You know, it is hard.

It is hard to listen to someone talk about their anger because a lot of people don't know how to talk about their anger in a healthy way. But that's at least a starting point is to be able to at least create some safety around the fact that you're angry at all. I'm open to that. I'm not open to being kind of dumped on, but I am open to whatever your anger is trying to tell us.

And a lot of times if someone does feel like they have that safety, then they're going to, that's gonna help them regulate their anger to begin with. you can kind of, you know, it takes some practice to learn how to know, to talk about anger in a healthy way, but the starting point is just making safe space for it. Let's see. Here's a good question.

I'm in a lesbian relationship with no kids, but the wild thing is how incredibly familiar, our negative cycle is. It's been an eye-opener. Thank you all so much. This has been so helpful in my and my partner's healing journey.

That being said, question for Julie, I'm curious if there's anything different you've noticed in helping lesbian queer relationships with their negative cycles. No, no, no, no. I mean, no different from lesbian queer and hetero than any other. you know, demographic versus another demographic.

really truly is. You know, sometimes you're going to have different life circumstances, different cultural experiences, different ethnicities, all these different ways that people are in the world. And so that's going to impact that the meanings they make of certain things, the meanings they make of their partners actions and the meanings they make of themselves. But underneath all of it is the same emotional material, the same relationship themes.

Themes of, I matter to you? Themes of, are you gonna be there for me if I really need you? Themes of, do you really appreciate me and what I bring to this relationship? Are you gonna be able to show up for me emotionally when I need you?

Do I need to worry about you abandoning me physically? I mean, it really truly is, as long as there's love and there's an attachment connection, then we're gonna find all the same thing under the surface. You know, again, it is not to invalidate the differences people have and some people have much more external challenges in their life than others and not to invalidate that. that I'm always, I'm not working in that place.

I'm working with how is all this stuff impacting you emotionally and how are you handling those emotions and in the relationship context. So. And I can say this with confidence because I have worked with so many people from so many different countries and diverse backgrounds and, know, gay, lesbian, transgender, hetero, Christian, Buddhist, you know, all, I could just keep going on and on, but I've worked with so much. I really do feel that.

over and over again, I'm really working. Once we get through all the surface, I'm really working with the same couple over and over again. Julie, why did you become a couples therapist and do you have negative cycles with your partner or is it possible to have none? I became a couples therapist because I just fell in love with the work.

I think emotionally and intellectual fulfillment, I like the, you know, helping people. I feel like I can really help. the bigger system instead of just helping one person in the system. And just more of an impact in an hour than maybe just individuals, which I have very much support individual work.

It's just, I like the intellectual challenge of couples work. It's very challenging work. I like the presence that it requires. You can't sit back and rest in a couple session.

You're constantly on your toes. And yes, I have negative cycles with my partner. We're pretty good. really good at getting out of them.

They don't last too long. I don't really know that it's possible to never have any. I've never heard of that. And I just think it's, you just get really, mean, everybody gets stressed.

Everybody gets triggered. Everybody is, their resources are low. They're hungry. They're navigating a situation that's new to them.

And so it creates a little more anxiety and everybody's at risk for falling into a negative cycle. It really, it's a matter of like, Are you having, are they rare? Are there very few of them? Are they not so bad?

So like you're not really just going to these awful places where you're really tearing each other apart and are you able to repair from them very quickly? That's the goal, not to never have them. This is really sweet. I'm gonna read this one.

Thank you all Julie's team. Drew, Melissa, my dearest darling, I feel. for you and I have been crying with you. Last Saturday, we just had the most lovely conversation because we are consciously choosing each other.

Even though we differ, it brings us closer. Now I understand that yes, love is a healing force. I will quote something I read. It energizes our spirit, nourishes our humanity.

When so much divides us, love reminds us of the truth that unites us. It is a light that guides us through the darkness. It is one of the few things we know we are doing right. Beautiful words.

And let's see. I think we have another question here. Kristin. Hi, how are you going?

Good, how are you? Yeah, good. This is weird. feel like I'm talking to movie stars or something.

You guys, I've been listening to you all so much. Just wondering for Melissa and Drew, how they felt during the process if they were always completely on board just thinking, yeah, we just trust Julie 100 % or did it kind of take time during the process to kind of see that come into place or did they have sessions where they thought, no, that wasn't worthwhile and then eventually it kind of fell into place or how did that all work? That's a great, great, great question. I would love to know the answer to that question.

I think throughout the process, the whole thing felt really good. I think it's It would be more so for me, I mean, Drew, I would love to hear from you, but in the middle of each session is when it got the most challenging. So, you you hear a question and you give an answer and then the nature of this work and Julie's process is you keep diving deeper and further and further into it. And it's hard.

It's really hard to... face those things about yourself or I can remember a few times hearing some of Drew's responses and initially before the session continued like early in the session just thinking in my mind like are you kidding me? Are you serious? Is he saying that?

Like you that cannot be right like but you stick with it and it's I mean because sometimes it's really hard to hear those things, it's just right away at first, like you've always thought it, and then you hear it being said out loud and you're like, wow, there it is. But then as the work continues and the conversation continues, it makes complete sense. And you really get to the depth of it and the why of it and the how of it. And it's impactful, it's life-changing.

So I don't think... that there was ever a point in the process where we thought, what are we doing? How did we get here? I think there were points within sessions where it was like, this is so hard.

But I think by the time we closed out every session, it was relief and safety. And okay, I'm glad we did that. I'm glad we pushed through that conversation. We feel more connected.

We have more understanding. mean, Drew, I don't know what your impression is. Those are my thoughts. I mean, I was definitely apprehensive at first.

was very, I think I was very sensitive at least in, in trying to, I was very sensitive to how I was responding and what I was sharing because my guard was up. and I think as, as we continued to work through different topic areas, I think there, there was just a level of trust that, was forming and really taking hold with Julie. you know, we kind of mentioned earlier, it didn't really feel like You know, you kind of lose sight that this is a podcast and there are listeners and it really just felt like, just a very genuine conversation that was very exclusive for the few of us involved. So yeah, I mean, I was very apprehensive at first and I would say, you know, there's a couple of sessions where we go in and I, I, told Melissa beforehand, I'm like, I hope she doesn't focus on me today.

You know, cause it was, it was tough. mean, it's taken. really took me to some places that I, that was uncomfortable. But again, very grateful that, you know, we, we experienced all the things we did.

You know, I would say I'm, a little sad that, that it's come to an end. can't believe that we did 20 sessions together because it definitely didn't feel like that. have a question for you guys. I always tell people, you know, this is really the truth.

It's like my couples don't fight in the session. Even if couples who fight, right, fight a lot or they just don't fight in the session, I would like to know, you know, like, did you experience something that a reason that maybe you didn't start bickering with each other? Does that make any sense? Yeah, I think it's because for the first time we were asking different questions.

We were looking at it through a different lens because when you're stuck in those negative cycles, you are fighting because you're filled with fear and shame and frustration and you're shutting down and you're just pulling out any, you know, old armor that you have to get yourself through it until it ends and goes away or you can just put enough band-aids on to wait until it fizzles out. But when you're in a session, like it's the first time for us, somebody's ever been asking you like, well, why are you feeling that way? What do you think is under that? Like it's not really about the houseplants.

It's not really about the kid. Like, you know, there's more going on here and you know, that's what we were not doing is diving into those things. I think that's kind of what, for me, what kept Drew's looking at me like, no, he disagrees. I was okay.

So for me, like. That's what kept me from getting so heated is because now I'm looking at it through a different lens, Okay. no, I was, I was in agreement. I think it's, I think you did Julie's such a great job of, you know, facilitating and guiding us to, know, not bicker and focus on what's at the surface, but it's, it's about going below the surface and really getting to, you know, that root cause of emotion.

That's, that's kind of driving, you know, some of these cycles. So. I think that's been a huge takeaway, at least for me. And I think that was a big reason why we probably didn't bicker and kind of jab at each other during our sessions.

Yeah, I want to add to that just because I want people to see that this work does parallel real life. Do both of you agree that you felt by me very understood and seen and validated? Very, Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

And so when you felt seen and validated, that helped you feel safe, correct? Right. Like there were times where you would say things and it was like a thought that I was having. And I'm like, my gosh, well, how does she know that?

And it's the first time you're able to put words to something that you, like I, my own self have never been able to put words to. Right. Right. It feels very safe.

Right. And kind of to add to that, though, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when couples can, there was a safety, there was a feeling of safety and that safety protects you from fighting because the safety helps you be in vulnerability. Right. Yeah.

And when you're in vulnerability, that's not a fighting place. Reactivity is a fighting place. So what I was using is I was using my own ability to co-regulate you guys to keep you in vulnerability. And that's what I'm hoping that my couples start doing with each other is creating all the safety that I'm creating in the sessions just because I've learned how, right?

And to teach them how to really hear and really understand each other and really validate each other even when they're talking about hard things. in that process, you can kind of keep each other safe and in vulnerability. And then the fighting just doesn't happen. I mean, can we agree that neither of you were sitting there going, my gosh, we can't fight, we can't fight, I have to not fight?

No, I I never felt that. It was just a natural consequence, a natural outcome of the safe environment. Yeah. And I would even say, you know, the, the bickering and the fighting, you know, even the court over the course of the last several months has decreased exponentially.

because of this work, because we've learned how to so much better, not only regulate ourselves, but co-regulate with one another. It's outstanding. Yeah. So you see, it really truly is possible to stop fighting, right?

Because I think a lot of people kind of have this idea that the two of you, because in the sessions, there hasn't been any of that. And so then that leads people to believe, well, they're not like us. They don't fight. we were, we were fighting.

But I think what was what was new here is when you start to understand why you're fighting and having the same fight over and over again, and you start to name it, okay, this is a negative cycle. This is why we're here. This is how we're getting here. And it is safe and it is vulnerable.

And you can really like it's nice to not continue to have the same fight over and over again. forever and ever because you finally can understand what's going on and why and how to really work through it. All right. Nikki, I'm to go to you, Alicia.

Nikki says, Melissa and Drew, you are amazing. Thank you for being so vulnerable. There's more coming in, so it goes away. And sharing your journey with us all.

Lots of love coming here through chat. Tiffany, okay, Alicia, I promise I'm gonna come back, but was it hard? This is a great question. Was it hard to name, identify where the feelings were coming up in your body?

Yeah, I think it was hard just because it was new. I don't think that's something that either of us has ever done. So it really just requires you to pause for a minute and think about it and connect it all. Like it's something that you physically feel, but...

Like for me, I've never slowed down long enough to pay attention to it. And have you noticed that that is a very powerful way to regulate your emotions, just kind of slowing down with them? Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

And I would say, I mean, I definitely struggled with that quite a bit in a number of sessions. just because it's not, again, I think I spoke about this a couple of times. I mean, it's just not a place that I was, that I was used to going to. so to put myself in a vulnerable state to explore that part of me that that's really always been there is, was, was the most difficult part of, know, participating in all of this work that we did.

But again, I'm so grateful to have discovered that and been able to do that along with Melissa. All right. All right. Let's see.

Let's go to Alicia. OK, Alicia, you're up. And I think maybe we'll end here. OK, great.

It's so nice to be able to talk to you guys and just say thank you. My husband and I have been able to follow along and have seen a lot of parallels. Kids the same age and a lot of the same challenges. But I guess I was just gonna say I thought like at the end of the last episode, Melissa, you did a good job of providing kind of drew that reassurance.

Like even if he goes to kind of a that crabby place or snippy place that, you know, it's just a moment and kind of gave them that reassurance. Do you think it's easier or guess, Drew, I guess my question is kind of for you. Do you have trouble kind of providing reassurance just because those kind of words weren't normal for you or maybe you didn't think you needed reassurance? I think that's something we're kind of running into at times and Was it good to be able to practice it in like a safe space with Julie?

And how has that gone at home? Yeah, absolutely. I think the reassurance is something new. Having that reassurance along with Melissa kind of helps me regulate myself.

I mean, I'm learning how to do that and trying to do better each day. But I would definitely say that, you Just, I kind of talked to earlier about like that depth of connection that we've have, that we've discovered. It's nice to know that no matter what, I know that Melissa is there for me and that she truly understands some of my thoughts and feelings. And it's a lot of because of the work that we've done in these sessions.

So yeah, the reassurance is really nice. I think having the opportunity to work through it with Julie in a safe space was incredibly impactful. I think it's a conversation that we tried to have a lot on our own. And we just didn't make it very far.

We just didn't have a lot of success with the conversation. And I think Julie's methods and strategies and tools really really got us the rest of the way. That being said, how's it going at home? It's not 100 % success rate.

I mean, we're still working through it. Like I'm sure you can relate when you, Drew's just walking in the door after a long day of work and I've had a long day with the kids and everyone's screaming and crying and what are we gonna eat and. one of them throws their stuff all over the floor. Like it's a lot to process in the moment, but I think what's new and where we're really gonna see the growth is that we have enough connection outside of that moment and we've created enough safety to where we're connecting to each other and seeing each other and relating to each other where even if that moment we're going to continue working toward it.

But even if that moment doesn't go perfectly, we know how to revisit it later. Or we know like, it's okay if he's grumpy in this moment, or I know we're going to come back to this later. Like there's enough to at least give us a few stepping stones to, to continue the growth. Because yeah, when you have little kids and everything is chaos, it's, it's going to continue to provide that challenge.

And yeah, so we're We're working through it as well. Awesome. Thank you. All right, well, thank you for that.

And hopefully I'm unmuted. Yes, I am. Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead and do Carrie. But before we jump into Carrie, I wanna say that these methods that I'm using are called emotionally focused therapy for couples, EFT for short.

these methods have been being created and honed and perfected for 30 plus years at this point. And I'm just doing that work. sure, I add my own stuff to it, but I'm not doing this alone. There are so many great, amazing therapists that have come before me that have created this work.

And we're all just keep contributing it and expanding upon it. But I really have to make sure that I give the credit to the EFT modality. for being able to do what I do. then especially to my supervisor, George, I meet with George once a week and we, you know, he's brilliant and he teaches me everything I know.

And there's just no way that I could do this work without him. So I just want to make sure that I'm putting that that out there for everyone. OK, so let's do do we have anyone else? Katrina, I thought Carrie was here.

OK. Someone wants to know, Melissa, okay, wait, hold on, let me answer this one. How do you decide when it's the right time to focus on individual vulnerabilities versus the couple's dynamics in the therapy? So I'm always circling everything I do back to the couple.

So I'm gonna start with understanding their negative cycle and then I'm gonna look at their protective moves. Like, what do you do when you're angry? What do you do when you're overwhelmed? You see all the toys in the backyard or you see your partner making snarky comments.

Like, what do you do? Why are you doing that thing? Why are you protesting? Why are you shutting down?

Why are you snapping? So I'm gonna look at that behavior and then I'm gonna start easing into the more vulnerable emotions under that. And then I'm gonna start easing into the shame and the abuse of self and all of it. is going to circle back to the dynamic.

So you notice that every session, I may have spent plenty of the whole session with just one partner, but I'm always circling back at the end to them sharing with each other. And that is the dynamic. it's all, a lot of this is, if not all of it is individual work that gets circled back into how is all this showing up in the relationship. So that's the relationship context.

Okay. Melissa and Drew have to leave, so we're going to have to end there. Thank you, everybody. It's been great.

Melissa and Drew will communicate more. And thank you, everyone. And it's been great. And all right, well, thanks, everyone, for coming.

Melissa and Drew, do you want to say a quick goodbye? Thank you, everyone, so much. This was fun. Yeah, thank you for the outpouring of kind words.

This was really a fun experience. I'm glad that we were all able to connect with one another. And yeah, very grateful for the work that was done over the last several months. So thank you.

All right. Well, thank you guys. And thanks, everyone, for coming. This has been great.

I really do appreciate this support. So all right. Bye, everyone.

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