S3 | Session 11: You Can't Problem Solve Your Way Out of Pain
When your partner is hurting, what is your immediate instinct? For most of us, it's to grab a toolbox. We want to solve the problem, clear up the misunderstanding, or offer the perfectly logical explanation that will make the pain go away. But what if the urge to fix the problem is actually just a disguised attempt to escape our own discomfort?
If you've been listening this season, you know Mike usually defaults to logic and defense mechanisms when things get tense. Today, we look directly at what happens in the split-second after a trigger. Mike admits that his absolute first instinct when Rachel is upset is to justify and explain, noting that if he can do so successfully, he can stay out of the agonizing feeling of being a failure. By helping Mike slow down and sit in the physical tension of that fear, he is finally able to tell Rachel the truth: he isn't pushing her away; he is pushing away the pain he doesn't want to face. It's an honest look at how our protections often create the exact disconnection we are trying to avoid, and Rachel finds a lot of relief in finally hearing his authentic self.
Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.
For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast
Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course
Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime
-
S3 | Session 11: You Can't Problem Solve Your Way Out of Pain
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book Secure Love: Create a Relationship that Lasts a Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So when your partner is hurting, what is your immediate instinct?
You know, for most of us, it's to grab a toolbox. We want to just solve the problem, clear up the misunderstanding, or offer the perfectly logical explanation that will just convince them to see it the way that they need to see it to make this pain go away But what if the urge to fix the problem is actually just a disguised attempt to escape our own pain in a way that really doesn't work?
So today, we sit down with Mike and Rachel, and we're looking directly at what happens in the split second after a trigger before anyone even has time to think. Uh, the only way to work through this work is to slow [00:01:00] that split second down so we can really see it and learn to slow it down in the moment.
So early in the session, Mike admits that his absolute first instinct when Rachel is upset is to justify and explain. You know, he'll tell me, "If I can successfully explain and justify, then I can usually stay out of that place." And he hasn't known how to say that before now. So that place is a deep, agonizing well of feeling just like a failure, and, and failure is a fear of loss.
If, if we fail, we're gonna lose, period. And this is because, and this is true for all struggling partners, is that he never learned to recognize and talk about and actually help his deeper feelings like fear and shame, and so he just goes straight into trying to regulate in the way he had to learn how to do growing up.
So in this hour, you're going to hear what happens when I ask Mike to drop the toolbox, and instead of letting him explain his way out of an uncomfortable conversation about a work conflict, [00:02:00] I, I ask him to just sit in the physical tension of the moment just for longer than what he's used to. Sitting with it, you know, really is the starting point because you can't help what you can't access.
And what we find underneath that defensiveness changes everything for Rachel. So just listen closely to how Mike finally puts words to his protective shell, telling her, "In the cycles, I'm not pushing you away. I'm pushing the pain and discomfort away that I don't want to face, that I've had to learn to run away from because I didn't know what else to do with it.
Nobody was there to support me." And what's the point of just saying it? Well, saying it is the first step to doing new things with it. Remember, this is all new for Mike, so we have to start small and go slow. First feel it, then learn to name it, then learn to share it, then learn to figure out what it's needing so it heals, so it stops showing up so often to begin with.[00:03:00]
And it takes a lot of repetition to really solidify that process, which, like I said earlier, is why therapy that works with emotion takes more time than just throwing out new communication skills. But before we get into today's session, I want to toss it over to you, our audience, with a question from one of our Spotify listeners.
So JLB Nico says, "Great episode. One thing I see missing often is what to do after the validation. Validation and understanding triggers are important, but where are the practical solutions? Not sure if these things are ha- happening off session." Okay, so great question. What I'm doing right now isn't avoiding skills work, um, in the fact that validation and understanding triggers are, to a large degree, the skills.
Because when validation is done in hard moments, when they're talking about hard topics, when validation is done with authenticity and heart, that creates co regulation, which [00:04:00] is ultimately what any communication skill is trying to do. Um, and it's trying to, they're trying to create emotional safety. And so in the session, we're using vulnerable validation as a skill for the purpose of addressing the very first problem in their relationship, which is a lack of emotional safety and connection and secure attachment.
So in here, we're building on the foundation that actually makes any relationship skill usable in the moments that couples need them the most to, you know, because we have to have their nervous systems be settled. If not, their, their nervous systems are at risk of hijacking their ability to put skills into practice.
It, it requires the ability to go into a different part of the brain, and we can't move into that part of the brain, um, that more rational part of the brain where it's, things are slowed down if our emotional part is just, you [00:05:00] know, crying for help. Um, you know, couples can learn every communication tool out there, I statements, validation, reflective listening.
Uh, there's n- there's thousands of books to learn those skills. Um, but if the emotional groundwork isn't there, again, those skills fall apart exactly when they're needed most. Um, and what I have found over and over and over again is that when couples start to learn how to be successful with this emotional and
vulnerability work, the relationship symptoms such as arguing around all sorts of different hard topics will start to resolve on, on their own.
So you, you also mentioned, you know, you said, "Julie was right to call out Mike on teamwork around the trip situation, and the anger makes total sense, but I didn't hear a similar call for the balance of gratitude Mike needs from Rachel." Yeah. So we work with one partner at a time. You know, if we try to put too much work out there, um, [00:06:00] we're not going to effectively address all of it.
We're just gonna be s- jumping around from topic to topic. So this session or the, the session you're referring to was Mike's work, and then later we will address, um, Rachel's side of it. Um, because I address one person's side of things doesn't mean that I'm not addressing the other person's side. It just means that the, that's not the right time.
And this is actually a really good, um, point that couples need to understand when they talk about things at home, that if we're jumping back and forth from, "Well, what's yours and what's mine?" and, "What do you need and what do I need?" Um, or this attachment caring hat and the attachment receiving hat, if we're jumping back and forth, nothing is going to get addressed in the, the depth that it needs to be addressed.
So gotta use the right timing. All right. Well, let's step into our session with Mike and Rachel. So I wanted to start here. You had mentioned that, you know, you [00:07:00] had this cycle two, two days ago, I believe, and you, you know, didn't know what to do, and so you put a pin in it. And, and so I wanted to make sure that we address that because I wanna give you some ideas of things you can do when you don't know what else to do.
Um, but that might be old news for you guys now, so you can tell me what you need, and we'll go from there.
Rachel: No, I think, I think it would be helpful to have that information. Uh, it's like we've talked about before, you don't have the opportunity to use the new skills until a situation arises, and so it's It would be helpful to be told what the skills are, but being able to recall them in the moment is then the next hard thing, so.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I can kind of give you the starting point. Maybe you can just stick with the starting point and take it from there. Um, the first thing we have to remember is that when there's a trigger, there's pain. Okay? So the pain is
what really is, is the problem in, in a [00:08:00] trigger because the pain is what's going to cause you to either do something not so useful with it or something useful with it.
And so just starting there, it's like, you know, just being able to say, "Okay, I'm, I'm hurting right now. There's a pain." Right? And, you know, from that point it's like, well, one option i- is to lean into that pain inside. I think that's probably the best option, is to just kind of slow everything down. Because if you don't slow it down, it's gonna go fast and you're not gonna do it with intention, and you really...
When you don't, when you're new to this work, um, your, your body's gonna default to what it knows, which is reactive. And when I say reactive, that could look like big reactive or shut down reactive. Um, so you kind of just wanna really slow down and go, "Okay, hold on. Um, I need... What's going on with me right [00:09:00] now?
Okay, this is, this is the place where I get scared." Because most likely it's fear. Fear is probably the top, you know, the, the kind of where it all starts. Um, and then from there, you know, what am I afraid of? And just kind of sit with that. I mean, I don't wanna tell you to go too far beyond that because I don't wanna
make this too complicated when you're still learning, but most likely if you get to what, what am I afraid of, you're gonna get into the vulnerable pain.
It's gonna come up because that's what the fear is fearing, is vulnerability. And so now what do we do there? Well, you can either take some space and kind of sit with that and organize yourself and figure out, you know, what do I... What is this pain needing right now? What do I need to, um, do to kind of help it?
Does it just need space? Does it just need to be sat with? Um, and then from there, how can we help each other with the pain? [00:10:00] And That's step one, is just putting word- is sitting with that place and putting words to it, and not going beyond that into, how are we gonna figure this out? It's just, "Hey, I'm hurting right now and here's why.
Hey, I'm hurting right now and here's why. Let's just hold this and kinda be with each other in this place before we try to solve it."
Mike: That's, I have a super, super, super hard time sitting in that place, Julie, 'cause that's always trying to go to the next step immediately.
Julie: Okay, I wanna pause right here, because Mike just named one of the hallmarks of the avoidant attachment trap.
And really anyone struggling in relationships, uh, with, if they have an anxious or disorganized attachment style can do this, but it happens to be very common among those with avoidant attachment. So he calls it going into the next step, which does sound productive on the surface. It sounds like problem-solving, and who doesn't wanna solve problems?
But his nervous system is really trying to escape the [00:11:00] pain instead of facing it. Like evacuating a burning building, um, except the building really isn't burning. It's just a fire in a fireplace that needs attention, not fear. But he doesn't know that because sitting in emotional pain feels life-threatening to someone who was never taught how to process it.
So by f- kind of me coming in and, like, encouraging if not forcing him to slow down, I'm helping him retrain his brain to realize and have an experience that pain isn't just, it, I mean, it, it's just an emotion that needs help, but it's not a death sentence. So hard. Yeah, because you, your body wants, your body associates that with, um, escape and getting out of it.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And it, it is a temporary fix, but it's at the long-term cost of really dealing with the feelings. And so let me just say this. Sometimes the temporary fix is the best [00:12:00] option. Sometimes we don't have the space to sit with our feelings. Sometimes we don't want to take the space. We don't r- have the resources.
It's a, it's a choice, not an obligation. Um, sometimes we do go distract ourselves, you know. Um, and we say, "Hey, I don't wanna deal with this right now. Let me just, you know, I just don't want to. I don't have the capacity. I, I just simply don't want to." Um, sometimes, you know, um, we do slip up and get reactive, and then we have to repair that.
It, the point is this, though. Are you able to do the feelings if you need to? And if you don't practice it, you won't be able to do that and you won't have tools in your p- pocket. You won't have options. The only option you'll have is continuing to e- to just not do it
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So the, the key word here, the operative word I think is flexibility. Mike: Makes sense.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:00] So, so first get- so first choose kind of like, "Okay, I'm in hurt. I'm hurting." You know? I just got this message that unmet an attachment need, and now I'm, I'm hurt and I'm scared and, uh, maybe angry on top of that, 'cause anger's telling you to, you know, do something to make a change.
Um, now what am I gonna do with this hurt? Am I gonna... Do, do I wanna kinda just try to take some space and sit with it and tell each other, "Hey, let's just kinda put a pause on it," 'cause if we just go into reactive, we're gonna get in a cycle, and let's just kinda go sit with ourselves and see what's coming up.
Do I wanna just right now ask us for help and do some co-regulation? Um, or do I just wanna put it off until later?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: You know, it's a, I, I- I think it's like, for me, it's a little bit easier to explain these things in the context of my kids because you get so much opportunity to help [00:14:00] kids with pain, right? And because just, you know, learning how to do emotions and going out in the world and school and the whole, the whole deal.
I mean, life is stressful for kids. And so, um, you know, my daughter, let's say my daughter comes home and, and there's... She's in middle school, and some somebody has said something mean because that's what middle school kids do
is they're mean. And so, um, you know, when she comes to me with this, it, there's nothing that I can do to change the situation that's going to make her not be hurting, right?
The, it's, it's just so objectively true. I mean, if some big bad thing happened that warranted calling the school or going to this kid's parents or something like that, that's another story. But you can't do that over every little thing, and neither would it be good for them to do that over every little thing.
So the, the assumption is, is like I can't make her stop hurting. The only thing I can do is lean into the hurt [00:15:00] and help her put words to the hurt and sit with her in the hurt and just be there with her and just acknowledge and say,
"Gosh, I'm so sorry. That's awful. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that today.
Did that hurt your feelings? How did that leave you feeling about yourself?" And then when that process is over, maybe then it's time to start talking about problem solving and, "Okay, what can, what do you need to do, you know, to prevent this from happening again?" If there is anything to do, because sometimes there's not.
Sometimes life is just hard and bad, and you cannot prevent bad things. Um, and if you can't prevent it, you know, um, how do you, how do you help yourself in that moment? Talk to your friends, you know? Um, so I don't know if that helps, but I guess it's just the idea that, you know, the pain just needs to be dealt with before we go trying to fix it.
And one of the main reasons for that strategy is some pain isn't going to be [00:16:00] fixed. It's just, it just is.
Mike: Mm-hmm
Julie: And then of course, the background work is building up the relationship to the point that the pain is less likely to be triggered to begin with.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And so what I have found is that people are much more capable of doing that when they know how to sit with the pain to begin with.
So it's not like the work is we're just gonna learn to sit with the pain indefinitely and just always be in pain. The work is we're gonna do this and know how to do it, the idea being that that's going to resource us for all the background work that makes the pain less triggered to begin with, and we're grieving the pain that's already there.
And that is what I have found in, you know, the difference between... A- again, I'm gonna circle it back to parenting. The difference between raising kids in a way that you're always afraid of their bad feelings and you're always trying to protect them from bad feelings, and you're overreacting to their bad feelings, [00:17:00] and you just immediately go into fix it mode, you know, um, and just sitting with them in the pain, my experience is that they are stronger, much stronger people, and they have less pain because of the fact that they are able to do their pain.
Am I making any sense?
Rachel: Yeah.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: It does make a lot of sense.
Julie: Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I ha- I- is that an operational answer or do you need more something specific, you know, for those moments?
Rachel: No, I think that's helpful, and just replaying that situation the other night in our mi- my mind anyway, I think we both very quickly jump to problem-solving and, and we're both able to have a lot of words sometimes.
Mm-hmm. You know, he's justifying and I'm ex- I'm explaining feelings and so there, there can be a lot of words and then it just so quickly takes us away from looking up what the root [00:18:00] of the issue is. And after yesterday's work for me, it's just clear how I don't know how to name what's actually going on.
And I think that's, that's gonna be the hard part is like, okay, I'm hurting, but trying to explain what that is, is going to be the challenge for me in the moment.
Julie: Okay. All right. So then we just need to, again, and, you know, this is why we do reps of this, and we keep kind of going through the same process, is because we just have to keep getting you clear about the hurt.
And so, you know, my kids grow up in an environment where every time they get hurt, or maybe not every time, but 50, 75% of the time they're dealing with a hurt feeling, they have someone walking them through that and organizing that. So they are really in tune with their hurt inside of them. Um, a- and it takes place [00:19:00] over the course of a childhood, right?
So if you didn't get this childhood experience where you had people helping you organize yourself, you know, it only makes sense that you don't know how to do that. Right. So that's why we just have to keep repeating it over and over in here. Yeah. So you understand, like you said, that TEMPO model. You know Mm-hmm
you can so quickly go, "Oh, what's going on? What am I afraid of? What happens if that comes true? Oh, that's gonna be awful. There's the pain. Oh my gosh, I, I've felt this pain before in my life. It's, there's so much there. Ouch, it
hurts so much." Now my body wants to go into this either anxious problem solving place or this mad motivate change kind of protest place, or my body just wants to numb it out.
Rachel: Yep.
Julie: And then if I do that, then that's gonna trigger, you know, the other p- the other one, um, and they're gonna go into their stuff. And so we need to have that, those words, you know, be able... We need to be able to see that clearly.
Rachel: Yeah. And yesterday with... [00:20:00] Yeah. It, it was interesting seeing how I've associated the pain with the dishonesty around what he's doing wrong.
I did not realize how big of a block all of the pain that I've held onto for so long layers into that fear.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. That there's a lot of unresolved grief that's getting hit. Rachel: Yeah. Every time.
Julie: Yeah.
Yeah. Right. And what would be different if, you know, that unresolved grief wasn't there? What, what do you think would be different?
Rachel: I would have the capacity to deal better.
Julie: It wouldn't be s- it wouldn't be so overwhelmingly painful. Right. Right. Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And- Maybe you, you wouldn't have to either protest so big [00:21:00] or go so far away
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: So if you feel like you and your partner are just stuck in the same recurring argument, this one's for you.
I have a workshop that walks you step by step through how to map your negative cycle, that pattern that just keeps you feeling disconnected and misunderstood. So when you can see this cycle, you can finally begin the process of stepping out of it. So to get started on mapping your negative cycle, head to the links in the podcast description or visit thesecurerelationship.com.
All right. Well, why don't we do this? Why don't I, um, s- shift over here to Mike and do some work here with Mike, um, so I can continue getting you really clear about what happens inside of you?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: The clearer we are, the clearer the mu- communication will become, the calmer the communication will become, and the more productive it [00:22:00] will become
So this is a place where it re- really doesn't matter, um, what you say. We'll get there. Okay. I'll, I'll guide us.
Mike: Good to know.
Julie: Your word take me to where we need to be.
Mike: Okay.
Rachel: Do you know what happened on the inside of you the other night when
Mike: When- ...
Rachel: that started to play out, I guess?
Mike: I mean, I-- and the other night being the
Rachel: Yeah, I mean any scenario really that you can think of where this pops up, either the, the big ones, the little ones, the, you know.
Mike: Yeah. I, I mean, it, it's kinda like I've said that any, anytime there's a, a point of tension or there's a trigger that I know has happened, my, my first bodily reaction is, you know, generally the tight chest. Um, if it's really, really a substantial thing, my, you know, my heart will start to [00:23:00] race, that kinda stuff.
I mean, that's, that's the, the first, um, kinda signs that, uh, oh, we're in, we're in trouble here one way or another. There's a fear that's been triggering. Yeah.
Julie: What is, um, what triggered that the other night?
Mike: The other night it was, it was the, the sudden known reality that the, the, the way the situation had played out at work is not what was told to Rachel. It was, there was missing pieces, and it was that sudden realization of basically, uh, being, being called on it and realizing that information had been withheld
Julie: And you, you're saying, "Yes, that was true.
I did withhold information," or you're saying she was perceiving it as that?
Mike: It's-- [00:24:00] And that's where, you know, I, I wanna be careful here 'cause that's where I did go, in that, in that moment, I did go into justification, you know, and that- that's where I immediately went like, "Hey, you know, I've been giving you updates.
I thought you knew, you know, this was, this-- I, I just thought you knew. I didn't think that, you know, you didn't." Um, and that's, so that's the, that's the place I went, but it was not the right place. Um, and looking back on this, yeah, look- looking back on the situation, I, I recognize that there was absolutely holes in the communications.
Rachel had not been a part of every conversation I had had, and ultimately there was information out there that Rachel did not know
Julie: Okay. And so
That is a conversation that can-- doesn't have to turn into a cycle, right? Where we just go, "Okay, hold on. Let me, let me [00:25:00] clarify here. Um, and let's, you know, see if we can meet here and apologize for whatever your role was." And, you know, that doesn't have to be a cycle, okay? The reason that it was a cycle is because it started with emotional unsafety.
And so I think that for you, Rachel, you already go in emotionally unsafe because you've had experiences. It's not just like a clean slate, "Oh, help me understand how, you know, why I wasn't included in this," or whatever. You've had experience after experience, and so you go in unsafe. So we can deal with that and talk about that.
But I wanna know where you go to unsafe, Mike. Like, where is the point that, you know, she says or says something that then takes your nervous system to triggered? What did she say or do?
Mike: It was, it-- we were actually standing in my office, and it was-- and she said something along the lines of like, you know, "That's, that's new information, um, to me, and I wish you had told me [00:26:00] sooner."
And that was kinda like after the, the situation had already escalated and, you know, we were trying to figure out what next steps were. Um, and we had already tr- basically had conversations about what the next steps were, and she's like, "Well, this kind of changes everything. Why did, why would you not have told me that when I asked you point-blank over the last two days?"
Julie: Okay. And so you, you get this message, "I wish you would have told me sooner," and then right there, that's it, right?
Mike: That's it. 'Cause there's, there's, there's the words that are said, and then there's the change in the demeanor. It's, it's, uh, it's, uh, the words and the appearance of disappointment immediately
Julie: Okay.
And okay, so the message that you're getting isn't, "I wish you would've told me sooner," it's, "I wish you would've told me sooner, and I'm super disappointed that you didn't, and I'm... And, um, and you've just failed me again."
Mike: Yeah, and
Julie: That's where your brain [00:27:00] picks up. Yeah ...
Mike: that, that's, that's where my m- my brain immediately goes, yeah.
Know- you know, knowing that's probably not Rachel's true intent, but that's how my nervous sism- system is triggered. That's absolutely
Julie: Well, there's probably tru- there's probably truth to that, too. There's probably, because that is part of the cycle, right? So, so what we're just working with is when you get these messages, that's the message that's really gonna take you there, is you've let her down and disappointed her and failed her.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And it's the same message that you get from your parents that can take you there, too.
Mike: Uh-huh.
Julie: Right? And so if we just think of this as an unmet attachment need, those things that you need to have met to feel safe and close to Rachel, what is that unmet need right there? Whether it's intentionally coming from her or not, right?
Mike: Yeah. I think, uh, or, you know, it's just knowing [00:28:00] that You know, she's, she's not disappointed in me and that I'm, I'm succeeding. I'm, I'm doing things right is
Julie: Yeah ...
Mike: is, you know, yeah.
Julie: Okay. So she sees you as just like a successful partner. She sees you as getting it right for her.
Mike: Right. Rather than part of the problem.
Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So I just wanna be really clear about this attachment need. It's I need to know she sees me as successful and not part- not just a problem What's the opposite of a problem?
Mike: O- opposite of a problem or,
Julie: uh- With your, w- you know, what's the opposite of being a problem to someone? Is it being a teammate?
Is it being a support system? Is it being a, a positive for someone?
Mike: Yeah. It's being a, a, a positive, you know, [00:29:00] um, a positive person, some- you know, a, a, a one that's providing, you know, solutions. It's, you know, um, yes, solving the problems, I guess, is-
Julie: Okay Okay. And is, if you're solving the problems, does that make you a protector?
Does that make you a, um... I'm trying to, I'm trying to get a word to what you're needing to be to her to feel safe and close.
Mike: I, I think, uh, y- a protector is definitely one that's Is one that is very important to me, and it's- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... it, and that's, you know, o one of the things that I recognize within myself.
I don't know, I may have said it, I may have not when, when Rachel and I were talking about it, but it's, it's, you know, in some instances in, in our world, you know, that's, that's where I'll go. It's like, [00:30:00] "Hey, I didn't tell you because it's best if you don't know."
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Like that, that place.
Julie: Yeah, that's your body, that's your body fighting to get this attachment need met.
So I just wanna get a little more clear about what the need is. It's, it's something like, I need to know she sees me as successful, and maybe the word protector in there, and a good partner, um, a good guy.
Mike: I think all those things and, and then just the, the, I'm, I'm trying to hold myself in, in that kind of what the, the emotions that I'm looking for.
'Cause I, I immediately wanna go to, you know, kind of, you know, uh, the, the fear side of it. But I'm trying to stay on the positive side for a minute.
Julie: Sure. You're trying to stay in the what, what do you need t- for the fear to not happen?
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Yeah. What i- what are you going for here? You're going away from...
We know you're [00:31:00] going away from feeling like you've disappointed her and like you're just, you know, a problem. So, so I appreciate you saying that, 'cause we need to figure out what you're going for, what you're going
toward. And it's, uh, I think maybe we can just settle here on sees me as a successful partner, a good partner, a good man.
Mike: Yeah. I think that's the, definitely the CliffsNote version.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. Do you want to see- be seen as a good man in all parts of life?
Mike: Yeah. That's something that definitely is important to me. Character and just, you know...
Julie: Yeah. Work, family, friends.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. So that's where you really thrive in that space, is just being recognized for your goodness.[00:32:00]
Mike: I- Yep.
Julie: And, you know, it, it's much as it matters in these other relationships, it's exponentially important with Rachel.
Mike: It is, yeah.
Julie: That's where you need it the most.
Mike: Right.
Julie: And that doesn't take away from your self-needs around that, but we're talking about to feel safe and close to others and to Rachel.
Yeah. And so in these moments when you get this message from her, whether w- wherever her brain is, you still get the message, bam, I'm, I'm... she does not seeing, she's not seeing me as good. She's seeing me as a, a disappointment, a big failure. What happens inside?
Mike: It's just an immediate, you know, feeling of sadness and, you know, disappointment and knowing that...
And this particular topic with Rachel around just being, you know, lying or withholding information, [00:33:00] whatever you wanna call it, is a very, very hot button topic. And it's like, I know it's something that, you know, it's a topic that I know that will cause immediate triggers on both sides
Julie: Right. And, and so we're gonna talk more about the lying directly, but right now we're talking more about what happens when you try to talk about it, right?
That's what you guys are trying to talk about in this situation. Isn't really the, the withholding of truth in this one area, it's like the bigger picture. She's coming to you with that. She doesn't maybe know that she's trying to address it all, and the words don't reflect that, but it's really all trying to be addressed.
But what happens for you is your body blocks you from engaging in that conversation. She's got blocks around deliver- bringing it up, but your body blocks you from engaging because right when you get that message, you failed, which we can't get around when we're talking about lying, right?
Mike: Right. [00:34:00]
Julie: Right? We can't, we can't escape it.
Bam. I- is that when, you know, right here and now we're, we're really putting words to more of the sadness. But before the sadness comes in these moments, does the fear come? Just, "Oh my God, the topic. The topic that takes me to I've disappointed her."
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: What happens in your body right there?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Is that when the tension comes up?
Mike: Yeah, that's exactly. I mean, that's, yeah, when we go into the, yeah, that very fearful place, you know, knowing what this ultimately is likely gonna mean. It, that's a down, it's a downward spiral. You know, it's the start of a cycle. It's,
Julie: you know- Okay. So before we get to the start of the cycle and before we go into our head right now, just help me understand the tension 'cause this is the part you need to be able to grab so fast.
So just close your eyes, and I'm just going to try to bring this moment to life where she says, "I wish you would've told me sooner," and tell me what happens in your body right there.
Mike: [00:35:00] It's, I mean, it, yeah, it's just a lot of, it's just a lot of tension, um
Julie: Just hold there. Just kind of stay with it. Let's get to know this place And are you able to stay with it right now?
Mike: Trying. Yeah, I, I, it's hard not to escape to my head, but yeah. It's... I'm, like, on the fence. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah, you're doing a great job. So every time you, you feel your head wanna pull away, just go back to the physical. Just, like, imagine that it's a, you know, a, a, an actual wound and, and redirect your body, your brain back to that wound, and just sitting with the pain in that
So when you redirect your brain back to the wound, where does that wound sit physically?
Mike: It's like a [00:36:00] tightness in my chest and just a slight pounding in my head
Julie: Okay
All right. The reason that we're, we're putting our focus there is so we can be really, really aware of it so we can start figuring out what it's needing so it doesn't have to be there anymore. I'm guessing there's three things there, and we're gonna just look at one of them right now. But one is the fear.
That's the biggest, right? Maybe some anger, I'm not 100% sure. And then the grief, and then there's probably some, some shame there too, right?
Mike: Shame with, with a huge piece of regret. Yeah. Knowing I sh- I should have known better and just being... I think that's where the frustration, anger comes within myself of-
Julie: Okay
Mike: yeah.
Julie: So you get frustrated with yourself here?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay[00:37:00]
W- what is the frustration frustrated at? Like, I should have known better, I
Mike: It, yeah, it, it's all around the, kind of the regret in, in knowing exactly that, that, that there was really no reason to withhold the truth. Rachel could have held the truth. I don't know why I did this. This was stupid. You know, it's all those, it's all those things that
Julie: Yeah, when we don't know how to make sense of it, you, you just go to, "I just shouldn't have done it. It was a stupid thing to do. I have no idea why I would do something like that." And then you get frustrated with yourself. And
what is that frustration with yourself trying to do? Is that the part that says, motivates you to do it differently next time?
Mike: Yeah. There's, I think there's a, a, [00:38:00] there's, there's definitely a... That's what ultimately I th- I try and take that frustration towards, I think that'd be accurate, of, of telling myself that I won't do it again. You know, this is, this
is, you know, what... Shouldn't have done it, and just, you know, it's, that's where it ultimately goes.
But if I just sat there for a minute with it, it's, you know, that's also the, there's a lot of sadness there and a lot of- Yeah ... fear around that.
Julie: The regret. Yeah. So just to kind of map this out, you, you get the message you're a disappointment. The, the, the need for safety that to know that you're, that you're good in her eyes, it, it goes unmet.
And then the bad feeling in your body, the tension in your chest, and there's fear there, and then there's also this, then this part comes in and it, it starts beating yourself up. That's the frustration, [00:39:00] right? Why did I do this? Why? Why couldn't I get it right?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And have you, is that how you, you're used to dealing with your failings, is getting really frustrated with yourself and beating yourself up? Just all, you know, all of your normal human failings in life when you get it wrong?
Mike: If I can't successfully explain and justify, yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So if you, if you, if you can successfully impl and explain it and justify it, then, then you don't have to get frustrated with yourself anymore.
Mike: It's like, it- it's, yeah, being able to deescalate the situation and have, you know, whether it's Rachel or somebody else, understand what was done, why it was done, make sense of it.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Then I can, I [00:40:00] can usually stay out of that place.
Julie: Got it. Okay. So you don't really get frustrated until you- your strategy fails to get her to see it differently
Mike: Yeah.
And there's, I, there's... Oh, I, I guess I wanna be careful there too, 'cause it's, there is, th- there is always a... Whenever there's a situation like this, there's always that the regret doesn't go away. It's basically being... I shouldn't say it, it's not... It's like just getting myself to a place of being comfortable enough to move on, if that makes sense.
There's still
Julie: Yeah, you put the fire out. You put the fire out.
Mike: Yeah. There's still ashes and a burned building there, but the fire's out. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. You put the, you g- you get out the immediate heat you can turn down, and then you can go away and figure out how to never let this happen again. [00:41:00] And that's when the frustration comes in.
Okay. But I, I like how we're getting this, this all organized. So the first strategy is the tension, and the first thing your body tries to do is justify, justify. Just get
her, get her... Put the information out there that will cause her to see it differently.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
And so I want you to just, just stick with this part, this small part, 'cause again, I wanna make these words really clear and the awareness really clear that, you know, the, the first pain for me, Rachel, is, is when I don't know that you see me as good. That's where, that's where the pain starts. It's so painful in me- for me in that space.
Just so we know where this starts, right? So just go ahead and tell her that.
Mike: Yeah. The, [00:42:00] the just pain and discomfort, it, it always just starts with you knowing that you're not seeing me as good as or successful and not part of the problem
Julie: And I want to add something to that, which is so then my first move there is just to try to get you to see me differently, just to desperately try to get you to see me differently
Mike: Yeah. My first move is always to try and convince you to see me differently and justify and explain That try and make everything okay
Julie: So how is it for you to put words to that first, that first piece of the puzzle here?
Mike: It's, it, it feels good, and I think it's something that Rachel kinda knows about me [00:43:00] and, and kind of expects, you know? Sometimes it's, you know, it, I
Julie: But how often do you put words to this?
Mike: Never. Uh, w- I, well, I shouldn't, I shouldn't say never.
I think I have said that I have n- I- it's been different and not this deep, but I have noticed about myself, I will, if, if something's uncomfortable, I will always try and justify and explain my way out of it. That's, that's where I've just, I just, I have that awareness, not the feelings, so.
Julie: Yeah, so we're just getting clear about the, more clear about the discomfort.
And, and the discomfort isn't just your ego or, you know, it- it, there may s- be some elements of, of that there that we can talk about later. But r- really what this is about is the unmet need, the unmet attachment need in the relationship,
which is I, my body just doesn't feel safe when I, when I don't know she sees my goodness.[00:44:00]
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And the way that I have learned to deal with that unsafety in my whole life is to convince the other person why they're just seeing it wrong, to give them the information that will cause them to, to shift their perspective, perception. Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And how... Does it feel a little more clear right now to link it to that atta unmet need?
Mike: It does, yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's, yeah, it's, it's interesting, but yeah, it's, there's absolutely, that's where it comes from.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And do you think that she sees that in these cycles when you're, when she brings up a concern, or she's in her place and needing some help? Do you think she sees how hard you're trying to get to reestablish your goodness in her eyes?
Or do you think that she's just picking up you're just, you know, leaving her alone and not being able to be there for [00:45:00] her?
Mike: I, I think it's probably the latter is where my mind goes Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: All right, so let me, let me check in with you, Rachel. What is, what is it like for... I mean, I know this isn't new information to you necessarily.
Maybe it's a little more fleshed out and clear, but what is it like to hear him po putting words to his experience a little more clearly for you and for him?
Rachel: It's helpful.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: What's helpful?
Rachel: It's helpful to hear just how important it is for him to feel safe, and there has to be a... There's a desire that I see him as successful.
Interesting, 'cause I'm, as I'm listening to him, it's, what does successful mean? You know? Um, 'cause I think it means something different to each of [00:46:00] us, and I've, I absolutely know I've been guilty of dismissing that in him.
Julie: So it sounds to me, it sounds to me like what you're saying is, is that hearing him put words to this is bringing up an empathy in you that says, "How can I help him feel successful?
What does that mean so I can help meet that need for him?" Rachel: Yes. And I think I've, I've asked that. And I...
Tell me what it is.
Julie: Yeah. So we will get, we will get there, but notice how him- his vulnerability around this is what invited you in.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: When you're, when you're just hearing him say, "Oh, no, you're seeing it all wrong.
Here's the way I see it," you're not being invited in to help him. Rachel: No. Not at all.
Julie: No. So whenever y- this is how, where, first of all, we're having an experience of success with vulnerability. This is it. His delivery, we [00:47:00] didn't change his experience that he needs to know, you know, that you see him as a good man and a successful partner.
We just changed the fact that he now is being clear about that and invited you in to help, and your nervous system opens, and your empathy now wants to come in and help him.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: And so I want you to share that with him, that this is successful because it's opening me up to you, and it makes me wanna come in and just take you into my arms and help you feel like the best man in the whole world.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's successful when you share your heart and what's really going on, and it opens me up, and I wanna be there for you. I wanna know what I can do and say and support so that you do feel successful.
Mike: Feels good to hear that. For sure.
Julie: Well, good. And so, and so here's... Let me just organize what we just did, which is, you know, this cycle at [00:48:00] home, it starts with, "I wish you'd have told me sooner," and we've got he- wounds to heal around that, right?
But, and then bam, y- incoming information, I'm a disappointment. She doesn't see me as a good man. Everything's on the line. That, that's not working for my body, 'cause that takes me to the most unsafe place. That's the unmet attachment need. Your body spikes up into, into this, you know, fear, tension response, and your go-to, it happens so fast before you even have time to think, is to just try to put the right words out and explain to her why that's not true, that you really are good.
And that's the, what we're calling justification. But, but a deeper way to explain justification is a desperate attempt to feel safe again And that's what you didn't know how to say. You didn't know how to say, "Okay, hold on, hold on. Give me just a second here. [00:49:00] I wanna, I wanna hear what you're, you have to say, 'cause this is so important, but my nervous system's shutting down because I'm getting that fear.
And let... Give me... However, let's just pause it here. Whatever we do going forward, we just don't go beyond that into that reactive place." And so when I
have you put words to that little piece that literally happened in a split second, right? No, nobody... Well, you don't... Nobody's slowing down and knows how to slow this down and, you know, really understand what's going on.
It happens so fast, we don't have time to think. That's why we slow it down in here. And so I had you share those words, and, you know, in this cycle, Rachel, your body just goes, "Whoa. Oh my gosh. Now I'm being blocked again. Are we ever gonna heal these wounds? We're doing this work with Julie, but here we are back to the same place.
What am I supposed to do here?"
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And [00:50:00] but when you hear it come at you like that, what, what we did in here, your body opens up, and now you wanna work with him instead of you guys working against each other.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: All right. So let's, um, let's keep going with this. We, we did this one bite, which is just getting clearer about the unmet need.
We know that the, the first response is fear, right? So let's get a little more clear about what happens if this is true. What happens if she really does see you as a bad partner?
Mike: The whole idea of being a failure and then ultimately, you know, the relationship's not gonna work, and this has happened too many times, and it's gonna be over.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: And there's been, you know... Un- unfortunately, it's happened, you know, times where I've, I've witnessed Rachel just being in immense [00:51:00] pain from not distrusting me, and that's, that's where it, it's just a really bad place that- Yeah ... 'cause I've, I've witnessed it on her both physically and then her sharing her emotions, and it's just, it's a terrible place, so.
Julie: Terrible place to see her hurting or
Mike: Yeah ...
yeah.
Julie: What is that like for you to see her hurting?
Mike: It's really painful.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So, so it's not just about what will happen to you if this doesn't work, it's what will happen to her if this doesn't work.
Mike: Right.
Julie: What do you think that would be like for her to have this not work?
Mike: Be terrible. I mean, there's, yeah. We've done a lot to, [00:52:00] to, to come together and it's just, yeah, it's
Julie: You, you know the trauma that this woman, your wife, has been through in life
Mike: Yeah
Julie: Things that people should never have to go through, right? Mike: Right
Julie: And so what would it be like to imagine her just, this not working and her having to go there again?
Mike: Yeah, it's
Julie: What comes up?
Mike: It's terrible. I mean, it's, it's a ton of- Sure ... just, yeah, just, um, you know, an immense amount of sadness
Julie: Yeah
It's not just about you, it's about her. What do you think it would be like for the kids?
Mike: Mm-hmm. All those thoughts and emotions, yeah. Super heavy, yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Just, just [00:53:00] to have to see them suffering would be absolutely brutal
Mike: Yeah
Julie: And do you see how this all comes in and these triggers when you get a message that you're disappointing her?
It goes that deep. There's so much fear there. How often do you put words to how scared you are of hurting her and, and sending her to that place?
Mike: Never.
Julie: Yeah
I don't know that you have... Do you ever put words to those fears yourself? Just Without, you know, just inside of you
Mike: I mean, it's, it's all the thoughts, but I won't allow myself to feel those emotions. I'll, I'll try to escape, escape to my mind or escape to [00:54:00] doing something to shift my attention
Julie: Are you feeling some of them right now?
Mike: It's, uh, yeah, it's just, it's a, it's a heavy, it's a heavy feeling on my chest. Just, um
Julie: Okay
Mike: know that those are there.
Julie: Yeah. How is it to put, to put some words here and just kinda be here for a bit? We're at a place that you're used to just not wanting to go.
Mike: It's a weird, it's a weird feeling of it feels good to face it, but it's also a little bit scary.
Julie: Mm-hmm. So the fear comes in. What does the fear say about this place? Mike: It's a, it's a reminder of what's gonna happen if this goes wrong.
Julie: Yeah. Because it's one thing to sit here and feel some of the feelings around what if, but it's another thing to think about how it would feel if it actually happened.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: What would that be like for you to see that [00:55:00] happen?
Mike: Yeah, it'd be, be terrible. I mean, I, I, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to put words to it. Um
Julie: Terrible. It's
Mike: Yeah, just, yeah, it's like a, just be a huge loss It's like losing a piece of your heart, you know, when you love somebody.
Julie: Yeah. Do you think that she, she knows that this is something that you carry around?
That this isn't just about what life would be like for you, that it's also about what it would be like for you to have to Drop her, see her alone, see her suffering, see her re-traumatized, see the kids hurt
Mike: I, I don't, I don't think she recognizes that depth that I carry [00:56:00] Julie: Can we agree that this is there in those triggers?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Just the smallest little statement that might say you're disappointing me goes, goes to this place And you don't wanna face it. And so what you do is you just try to put the fire out, put the fire out.
Tell her, tell her it's not true
Mike: Yeah
Julie: So I want you to tell her right now about what you're carrying around with you, about this other part of the fear and the devastation.
Mike: Yeah. I just, I just carry a huge amount of fear of what it would look like for you if this, and us, if this didn't work, and how devastating that would be for each of us and the kids and everything that you did, you know, give up to come together So [00:57:00] it's, it's a lot.
Julie: So I want you to add something to that which is in the cycles. I'm, I'm not pushing you away. I'm pushing
that pain away in me that I don't wanna face
Mike: Yeah. In the cycles, I'm not pushing you away. I'm pushing the, the pain and discomfort away that I don't wanna face
Julie: So how is it to just put some words here? Just show up
Mike: It feels good. It feels good to, to share that with Rachel and just have her know my truth and not have her wondering or thinking I, you know, I don't care about her or I'm, [00:58:00] you know, that's-- or she's not seen or she's not heard and valued, all those things. It's, it's, it's, all that plays into this
Julie: And you had to have the bravery to go there into that dark place in yourself to be able to put words to it.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: And what you're saying to me is there's, there's success in that. We don't know how Rachel is going to respond. I see her, her tears, and we're gonna learn how this is hitting her. But e- but regardless, there's success in your own vulnerability just for you, right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: Yeah. Just to be able to be truthful and authentic.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: It's, it's not just for her. And so Rachel, how is this hitting you? I see the tears. You know, I know this is... There's a lot coming up[00:59:00]
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, it, it's a relief to hear it, and it's I'm just so thankful that he can share it now Because I've asked and he, like, he's denied it. And so then it, it makes me wonder, like, how can, how can you not be scared of what could happen? I just couldn't make sense of how that couldn't be there. And so knowing that it is there is a relief
Julie: Mm-hmm. And how do you make, how do you make sense of why he's been needing to deny it?
Rachel: Well, it makes a lot more sense now that it's just such a painful place that he can't allow [01:00:00] himself to go there. Yes.
Julie: Okay, so notice the massive shift in Rachel's voice. You know, for, for years, Mike's refusal to show fear understandably made Rachel believe that he simply didn't care if he lost her.
You know, she was reading into his emotional absence as apathy, which anyone will if we don't have someone sharing with us what's really going on. And he couldn't do that because he didn't know. But today, he finally confessed that the thought of losing her and seeing her suffer is so devastating that he just blocks it out completely to survive, and it, you know, it took my help to go in there and help him find these fears and put words to them.
It's not the absence of fear that makes him shut down. It's the sheer overwhelming power of it, and the fact that he never learned how to talk about it. So the moment that she gets to hear from him, from his heart, that his silence is actually a [01:01:00] shield against not his love for her, but the fear around his love for her.
You know, love is scary, especially when you're in a struggling situation like this. So when she was able to realize this in a new way, um, her entire nervous system drops its defenses. And, you know, my job is to teach them how to drop each other's nervous system defenses at home by doing a lot of it in here.
Yeah. It's not the absence of it, it's the sheer power of it.
Rachel: Yeah. And to me, on the outside, it has just felt and seemed like there was an absence of it.
Julie: That's what the cycle does, is it lies.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And so are these tears, um Relief? Are they touched? Are they just, if we tried to get more clear about
Rachel: Both. It's relief, but it's, right, like [01:02:00] he does have a deep love for me, and he's trying to avoid the pain of being without that. And it's relief that he is willing to share his authentic self with me, 'cause I feel like that's been so elusive in the relationship
And it's what I've wanted to have a deeper connection
Julie: Yeah, he, he's been trying to find, he's been trying to find, in the cycle, he's been trying to find success in just putting the right words out and the right information to get you to see it differently. That doesn't define you. I know there's also been moments of emotional connection and authenticity, but what we- we're figuring out is the success, Mike, that you're looking for is in vulnerability.
It's not in avoiding it. You just haven't known that yet You have, I'm giving you a new way to be successful To add to your repertoire, not take away from all the other things, 'cause
sometimes [01:03:00] the words are what are gonna work
Yeah. And so I just want you, Rachel, to share with him this is successful. This is it. And it's s- it's not just successful for you, it's res- successful for both of you
Rachel: Yeah. You sharing your heart and your authentic self and feelings is, is successful for you, which I'm really excited about. Because it benefits us.
Mike: Yeah,
Julie: yeah. All right, I think we'll go ahead and stop there. Well, that brings us to the end of our hour. This session was a great example of redefining what a win looks like in a relationship. You know, for his whole life, Mike thought that success meant keeping the peace, putting the fire out quickly with the right words and the right justifications and moving on.
And [01:04:00] all of those had temporary payoffs at the expense of long-term cost. So today he learned that true success isn't avoiding the fire, it's standing in it together. And when Mike finally stopped trying to manage Rachel's perception of him and instead just handed her his fear, she didn't criticize him.
She thanked him, and she felt relief. You know, that is going to show up in the way that they communicate with each other outside of the sessions. We're building safety. So next time, we're going to tackle a completely different kind of fire: family boundaries. We're going to explore what happens when the loyalty to a partner collides with the unspoken rules of how we were raised and how those rules are showing up in extended family.
So for this week's reflection, when you feel the urge to overexplain or justify your actions to your partner, just pause and ask yourself, "What discomfort am I trying to escape right now?" [01:05:00] Try sitting in that discomfort for just one minute without trying to fix it. You know, the key here is to start in your body, try to find that tense feeling right when that trigger is alive.
If you don't work with these things when they're alive, it's hard to... You know, it's hard to work with emotions that aren't alive. If we're not working with them when they're alive, we're just working with them conceptually, and there's not no value to that, but it's, it's far more effective, you know, either to catch it when you feel a trigger and take a break, or just think about a trigger.
Usually, if you just think about something that's a trigger for you, you'll feel that thing in your body, you know, somewhere. Um, and then once you get that, that's when you can start to name it as fear. And if you can get a name to the fear, what is the fear fearing, that's gonna probably take you down into those deeper emotions that need space, need to be sat with and communicated and comforted by yourself and by [01:06:00] those who love you.
So if you've found value in today's session, please leave us a five-star rating on Apple or Spotify. And I wanna, again, just thank Mike and Rachel for their incredible bravery. And thank you, our audience, for holding space for them. Until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
