S3 | Session 12: Between a Rock and a Hard Place: The Cost of "Going With the Flow"

May 12

In this episode

Picking up with anxious-avoidant couple Rachel and Mike, Julie Menanno traces Mike's avoidant attachment back to a grandfather who was 'straight business' and an emotionally avoidant father—an environment where he learned to brush off feelings and 'go with the flow' to keep the peace. The session zeroes in on their most volatile fight: in-laws and family obligations, where Mike feels trapped between a rock and a hard place. Julie reframes his people-pleasing as a coping mechanism for fear, showing how Rachel's push for boundaries wasn't rejection but a healthy exit from a broken negative cycle. The breakthrough comes when Mike admits his 'going with the flow' was really a hidden request for co-regulation, and Rachel's empathy opens wide.

Key takeaways

Avoidant coping like 'going with the flow' often begins in a family of origin where emotions were dismissed, not because someone doesn't care about their partner.
When one partner finally sets a boundary, the avoidant partner can experience it as abandonment—the loss of the coping strategy that kept them feeling safe.
Mike's passivity around family obligations wasn't choosing his family over Rachel; it was an unspoken request for her to help him regulate his fear of disappointing people.
Sitting with an uncomfortable body sensation instead of avoiding it lets the feeling peak and then dissipate, slowly building tolerance for hard emotions.
Healthy boundaries aren't about blocking your partner out; they're about protecting the relationship by showing up authentically instead of disappearing into fear.

S3 | Session 12: Between a Rock and a Hard Place: The Cost of "Going With the Flow"
Julie: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno, licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book Secure Love: Create a Relationship that Lasts a Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So doing real emotional work is really, it's actually physically exhausting. So when Mike logs on for this session, the first thing he's going to tell me is that he just feels taxed and jumbled because remember, we're doing a lot of sessions here squeezed into a short amount of time.
So he honestly should feel taxed and exhausted. Um, it's like working out. He's asking his brain to operate in a language, uh, it was never taught to speak. So today we're going to trace that language barrier back to its origin by diving into Mike's family history, you know, starting with a grandfather whom Mike loved very much and learned a lot from, but who was also, you know, what he'll describe as straight [00:01:00] business, and then his father, who also has so many strengths, but who also was, in Mike's words, avoidant to the core Um, emotionally.
So Mike, you know, learned early on that you don't feel things. You brush them off, you distract from them, and you just kinda keep the peace by going with the flow. And those strategies got him by back then and serve him in certain parts of
life today. Um, and honestly, you know, when those strategies are in balance in the right context, they are huge strengths.
But when they aren't in balance and we get into a relationship, you know, which with a partner, which is an emotional system that requires emotional skills and care, uh, we do have a problem. So then at that point, those very stre- strategies will keep us from being able to do our own emotions with health, and then from there, we end up abandoning our partner's emotions, uh, because we [00:02:00] can't help them with what we haven't learned to help ourselves with and recognize in them what we rec- you know, if we can't recognize it in ourselves.
And then both partners end up emotionally abandoned, one from self and the other from partner. And then on top of that, if, if someone has an anxious attachment, they're, they're also abandoning their own emotions. Um, anybody with insecure attachment is, is self-abandoning. That's the actual core of, of the problem.
Um, y- you know, again, this is, we're talking about self-relationship. I mean, there, there could be one partner in a relationship who has a very strong self relationship, um, but if their partner isn't able to do that with them, then the
relationship can't be secure. Uh, but if someone does have an anxious attachment, you know, no relationship can make someone have an anxious attachment within their own self.
So when someone has an anxious attachment, you know, their, their [00:03:00] difficulty with their own emotions will get in the way of them being able to fully sho- show up in the relationship with health. And you can see how these negative cycles just start early on and spin out. You know, the difference in this relationship is that, uh, Rachel had done a lot of her own work on herself, uh, prior to starting this work together.
So in this session, we're going to unpack one of the most volatile dynamics in their marriage. In-laws and family obligations, um, extended family obligations. So for years, Mike has really felt trapped between a rock and a hard place. When Rachel, you know, would push back against some of these, you know, kind of objectively unrealistic fam- family expectations and, you know, kind of some emotional dysfunction, to be honest, um, Mike didn't just get annoyed.
He felt really profoundly abandoned. And so, so today he finally fi- finds the words to explain why. And what we're going to hear is [00:04:00] his version of the words, "I have been asking you to go with the flow with me because that's how I've managed this system and regulated my own fears of pushing back against the system."
So this is an episode about generational habits and the real cost of just keeping the peace and learning how to, you know, set healthy limits and healthy boundaries, not that end up disconnecting us from those around us, but in a way that actually helps us feel closer, um, to the people that we care about.
Not initially. You know, a lot of times extended family, uh, if you start kind of setting some healthier boundaries with them, uh, it... they get scared and they start to push back. Um, but if we can kind of stay the course and let, you know, the people that we care about know that, "Hey, I'm gonna be setting these boundaries, but I'm not going to abandon you in that," you know, that we, we don't have to lose connection here, you know, that then people start to settle down and settle into the new new.
And that doesn't always happen, [00:05:00] you know, for, for every family out there. Um, but, you know, it, it's more common than not that most people who, you know, really love you and care about you will end up flexing to something healthier that you're presenting to them. All right, well, let's step into our session
with Mike and Rachel.
So we ended yesterday with you, Mike, um, you know, just getting a little more clear about what happens for you in these triggers, um, where You get this message, you're a disappointment, right? And then that goes to your unmet attachment need, which is, you know, I need, I need f- to feel safe and close here, I need to know that she sees me as a good partner and a good man.
And then your body spikes into tension as a fear response. And then the fear says, "Well, [00:06:00] this isn't gonna go anywhere good if she doesn't see me as good. I, I... Eventually I'm just gonna get left." And then not only does that create a lot of pain for you, and will create a lot of pain for you should it come to that, um, then you have to see her suffer, and suffer more on top of all the other suffering in life.
And that is a r- you know, it makes so much sense in that context that your body would go into that fear state given what's on the line, and just these little moments that it's easy to step away from and go, "Oh, that was so insignificant. Why do I react like that?" Well, you react like that because it, there's, again, there's just a lot on the line.
And, um, so do you have any, you know, d- are you starting to kinda get a little more clear about that pattern inside of you?
Mike: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's, yeah, it's always, it's interesting to kinda see that split second kind [00:07:00] of reaction and then unpack it, 'cause there's so much going on there that it's not even, it's not even comprehended, I guess.
Julie: No.
Mike: So.
Julie: Yeah. It's so, I, like I say, it happens so fast you don't even have time to think. You know, do you mind if we just kinda keep going with this and, and kind of understanding more about the layers here? Because, you know, this, there's, there's more to this than even s- you know, amazingly, there's more to this than even what I've just described.
So, um, what, what's just coming up right now emotionally as we... You know, remember we're doing emotion-focused work, so have to go there. Um, so what's coming up right now, just kind of putting some words to it, or what came up last night, or?
Mike: It's, I'm just kind of, uh, let's see here. What's a good way to put it?
It w- yesterday was definitely, I can tell, like, [00:08:00] maybe something like Rachel had said, it's like it, it kind of just felt a little bit fatigued. And I think that it, it... That forcing my, my brain and emotions to go into a different place interestingly kind of taxed me. Yeah. Um, not, it's not used to that, you know.
That you just throw, you know, everything, throw it to the wayside, you can balance. You can, you can juggle more, so much more. But- Yeah ... there's also no value to that when you're trying to, you know, truly, you know, invest in a relationship. So that's, that's kind of the, the interesting thing. And it's, yeah, it's, I guess that's just kind of where I sit right now is just like the, the kind of like a deep awareness, you know, and, and trying to understand, like, what, what does that mean?
And then, you know, my mind goes at a bunch of different places. It's like, you know, you kinda, you kinda start to replay things a lot, at least I do.
Rachel: Okay.
Mike: [00:09:00] Um, but yeah, I guess that's, that's kind of where I sit this morning. A little bit, just a little bit jumbled, I guess. Just kind of trying to make sense of it all is probably a good way to explain it.
So
Julie: Okay. Well, maybe let's, let's do that. Let's help you make sense of it all. Um, when you, when you say jumbled, um, what's, what's jumbled? Like, usually that means that there's maybe some conflicting thoughts or all over the place. So if you could just like grab onto one of those and we could look at it more deeply, we might find the theme around them all, right?
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: All the threads will come together.
Mike: I think, or, you know, it's, it's really just kinda... It's almost like a sense of surprise at how much I've probably missed in, in a lot of senses. Um, in, in not, not showing up in ways that was, like, right at my fingertips, but I was just [00:10:00] c- completely unaware of.
Um, I'm, it's, yeah, I'm kind of, like I say, not... I think that's where I'm a little bit just kind of
At the end of the day, I think it's surprising to me, uh, you know, just how mu how much emotions are in there, and then actually sitting in those emotions and trying to understand them is something I've never done before, and it's an interesting place. That's all I, that's all I can say is it's like it's an interesting place to go and force yourself to go.
That was something of which I, I have never done and, and, you know, just avoided with everything I possibly could and- Yeah ... and yeah, and just, it just really makes clear that the theme, the constant theme of how I've handled things is, you know, the just when there's points of contention, it's, it's always just the justification, the explanation.
[00:11:00] That was just, just the way I operated for so many years, and that, that was it. That's where everything got cut off. Nothing more than that, so.
Julie: But- Okay. And
Is there, um, you know, how, how do you make sense of, of the fact that you missed so much and couldn't make sense of it, and just kept falling back into these defenses of, you know, justifying and... How do you make sense of, you know, how, how you ended up doing that?
Mike: It's
It's basically been learned over the years or, you know, as a protection mechanism. You know, it's the one that I defaulted to and I was never, you know, really taught or even had a someone that, you know, um [00:12:00] Modeled something else is a good way of putting it.
Julie: Okay. And do, a- a- and does that bring up anything that, yeah, you kinda, you know, when you get clear about your own limitations, you have to little, get a little more clear about the failings of your family?
And does that, what is that like for you?
Mike: Yeah, it's, it's tough for, 'cause I've- Okay ... I've always, you know, held my family on a pretty high pedestal.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: And I still do, right? I've, I've, in the work with the, the prior therapist, I've, I've recognized it's like two things can be true at the same time, is it's- Yeah
this was a, this was a shortcoming, but the family is still a great family. Sure. And they did the best they could. So I'm, you know, but there's still a piece of me that goes to, you know, kind of that place of saying, "Hey, you know, the,
the family life was, you know, it was good. I had a good-" Right ... "childhood," and all those things, right?
But it's, it's definitely clear [00:13:00] that... And, and I think the, one of the, you know, things that really shaped me early on i- in, in the lack of emotions, if I go even further back as I, you know, I spent a lot of time on the ranch with, you know, Dad and Grandpa. They were, you know, well, starting with my grandpa. He was a very old school you know, you fall down or whatever, brush it off, you're fine.
You're, you're, well, there, I mean, there's no, there's no emotions behind the guy, right? He's straight business, and he's just old school and just that's, that's... So I spent a ton of time with him. Um, and you kinda get a, as a kid, you get a hardened, um, kind of outlook, you know, on- Sure ... on everything. Uh, emotions were not part of the equation with him ever were.
Um, and then that obviously, you know, that, that's how my dad was raised, and that was kinda how he was wired. [00:14:00] Um, he, I will say he was, he's definitely, you know, more emotional than my grandfather was, but there's still, he did not have the modeling to, you know, kind of go to these emotional places. It's, it's a very kind of hardened, you know, um...
And, and I will say my dad is absolutely an avoidant.
Julie: All right. Well, Julie jumping in here. So this is a really crucial moment of map making, you know, so to speak. We aren't digging into Mike's childhood to blame his parents or vilify them. We are doing it to depersonalize his behavior for Rachel, not to excuse it.
You know, a lot of people hear this work and they hear, uh, making sense of things and depersonalizing things, um, and they have a hard time disconnecting that from excusing it and, you know, they say, "Well, that's not okay." Well, it, it's not okay, but we don't find solutions to problems without understanding those [00:15:00] problems To begin with.
It's, it, you know, making sense of something is meant to be a way to help us out of it. So when an avoidant partner shuts down, the anxious partner almost always internalizes this. They, they just see on the surface, you know, indifference, disengagement. Um, and then of course they say to themselves
when they, when they're not getting any other information, "Well, he's doing this because I'm not worth fighting for."
But when Mike maps out this generational legacy of, you know, just brush it off, it removes the sting. You know, he isn't withholding emotion because he doesn't love Rachel. He's withholding it because his emotional baseline was built in an environment where feelings simply weren't part of the equation.
And now we use this information to keep building the trust and security that we need to make the changes we need to make. You know, we need them to have trust and security before they can work through any of this together, even have conversations about it. Um, because if Rachel just keeps having to [00:16:00] believe this narrative that he just doesn't care about her, her nervous system isn't going to be able to trust change.
So this reframe is just very, very important. And your mom is a little more... It sounds like your mom more leans into that anxious, like, you know, when you say no, that stirs her up and she pursues.
Mike: She's a very strong personality.
Julie: And then protest, protest if that doesn't work, yeah.
Mike: Yeah. Yep.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah. So.
Julie: And then, and so, so yeah.
I- I, you know, I guess what I would like to explore is, you know, th- there's this part of you that can come in and give them plenty of grace and say, "Hey, they came by this honestly, and they did such a good job in all these other ways." But if we just talk to that part that has some discomfort around having to, you know, maybe be a little critical of them, right?
That's some- that's not your comfort zone.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Yeah. And-[00:17:00]
I'm sure we can all agree that there is a lot of healthy space to look at our parents through, through a more critical eye, just so we learn about our own limitations that we might need to work through and how we can improve that going forward. You know, it's part of growth. Um, but at the same time, it can be extremely scary And so I would like to help you with some of those feelings so you don't have to, you know, hold them in.
And you can help me w- you know, with maybe where a starting point on that for you would be. But one thing that's really coming to my mind is that I think we all agree if you're going to kind of m- manage all this with Rachel, and she's probably definitely got some work to do around this topic too, but if it...
This is gonna be managed with health, it probably is gonna require that you set some boundaries with your family, right? Um, [00:18:00] what does it feel like just as I say that? You know, maybe there's some room for some healthy boundaries here, so.
Mike: Yeah. It, it's, it's something that I'm aware of, and with our prior work, I have, I have set some boundaries, and it's, it's definitely changed.
So let's, let's, let's start there. Um, and I think it's kind of... What I'm, what I'm kind of feeling around for now is what, what... In my, you know, in, in my mind, what, what is the definition of healthy boundaries?
Julie: Yeah. Yeah I think that's an appropriate question.
Mike: So that's, that's where I'm kind of struggling right now, just, I guess.
Julie: Okay. Yeah. And, and I do... You know, we need o- operational, um, answers to those questions. Um, but the problem is, is that we're not going to put those things into play fully, um, or it just won't feel good to put them [00:19:00] into, into play until we really explore the fears around doing so. So what I'd like to do before we go there is just give you a little more emotional peace around the idea of doing it.
And if there... Maybe you have made peace with it, but if there's a part of you that still feels kind of anxious just thinking about it, I would like to put some words to that and help you out there. 'Cause what you're used to doing is just
kind of shoving that fear away, just move forward, get the right words, you know.
Mike: Yeah. And there, there definitely is just anxiousness around it. That's, that's for sure.
Julie: Yeah. And, and to be honest with you, getting clear about the fears around setting boundaries is part of setting the boundaries because it gives you a better idea of what you're doing to begin with. You know, "Why am I doing this?"
So, um, what, what i- let, let's just talk about the fear. Like, uh, put, put a name to it. Yeah, there is a part of me that is afraid of [00:20:00] setting boundaries. And how does that show up in the cycle?
Mike: Yeah, it, it's It's the fear of, like high level, it's the fear of disappointing them. Yeah.
And depending on what it is, but that, that's ultimately, you know, kinda where I think everything stems from is just not wanting to disappoint the family
Julie: Yeah, and, and I, and I just wanna point out that, you know, another way of saying boundaries is just healthy assertion, is just being clear about how you want things to be.
And I'm guessing that that hasn't been happening in some ways with Rachel too, where you've been really clear about how you think you want things to be, and it comes out in these other [00:21:00] ways maybe.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: She's nodding her head, so I'm... Yeah Are, and, and so is it, is it there too? Like The fear?
Mike: Yeah. Yeah Okay It definitely is
Julie: Okay, so what I'm gonna let- what would you think about changing the word boundaries to a more kind of global phrase, healthy assertion?
Mike: S- sounds better and yeah, I think that
Julie: It does, doesn't it? Yeah.
Mike: Yeah. I, boundary-
Julie: Boundaries has taken on a lot of
Mike: Yeah. You're, you're blocking somebody is what it sounds like. Like I'm Julie: I agree. Yeah ...
Mike: yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And that, that definitely is how people have taken it. Um, it, it's more like I have to protect myself from you, whereas the healthy goal is I need to protect our relationship by showing up.
Mike: Yeah. [00:22:00]
Julie: Because when we don't show up and assert ourselves in a healthy way, we're not really in, in a relationship. You know, to some degree we're blocking our authenticity, and we're scared, and fear blocks connection
Mike: Yep. Yeah, I can see that
Julie: Yeah. So, so we can also say, like, you, you know, y- if, if you're still, if you're fearing your parents' disappointment, and, you know, there, there's room for not wanting to disappoint our parents, right? But I, I don't wanna dismiss that idea, but it, it crosses a line at some point and into, you know, actual fear.
And so what you're saying is, like, there is a part of me that's kind of scared of my parents
Mike: It's, yeah. It's, and it's, it's not a, it's not a fear of, like, there's really nothing that, that... They, they, you know, have [00:23:00] always demonstrated a ton of grace. Like, there's not, there's it's not like either one of them are gonna fly off the handle, you know? It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a... If I'm being honest, my bar or my standards for myself are way higher than what my- Sure
parents likely are in reality.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: So that's probably, you know... It's, I'm harder on myself than what I need to be, in other words, in a lot of ways.
Julie: Yes. I, I, I hear that. Um, I think what you're trying to tell me, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is I'm not, like, afraid they're gonna start screaming at me or withhold financially or some, some, like, you know, real bad vindictive consequences.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: So we want to bring balance to this word fear. Yeah. Um, so if we go back a little bit to some of the [00:24:00] work we did a few days ago, um, we talked about, you know, if I say, "No, we're not coming to the birthday party," then the response is going to be, uh, "Why? What's going on?" And then that's gonna potentially, based on experience, lead to, um, "Fine, never mind.
We're fine." And so what does that do to you inside? Because that's what you're fearing What does that do to you inside, right? You know, just imagine this text comes through and it's like, "Never mind, we're fine," and you know it's not fine, right?
Mike: Right. It's knowing, you know, there's, there's, there's disappointment there, and then that means...
I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of how best to say it, but it's, it's almost like a, a loss of connection
Julie: So where, uh, let, let's get there, but where does it hit in your body first? [00:25:00] Remember, we're gonna start there because that, that gets us into y you know, the fear, right?
Mike: Yeah. It, and it's, it's that, it's always the same reaction of, you know, when you disappoint someone, it's tightness in the chest, maybe tightening in the, in the head.
Um, for me, that's always the
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: kind of the...
Julie: Okay. So is it, is it fair to say that there's a little bit of that right now just as we start this conversation up?
Mike: A little bit, yeah.
Julie: Okay. So I want you to just close your eyes and just, uh, you know, again, just kind of hone in on that and, you know, pretend it's like a, a, a physical wound and you're just putting all your focus on that physical wound
See if you can just kinda stay there for a little bit longer than what you're used to
So how, how is it? Is it, [00:26:00] um, as you sit there, is it worse? Is it better or the same?
Mike: I think, uh, it, it's, it gets better in a sense. If that-- It's like a alleviating of the tension, and I don't, I don't know how to really explain it, but it feels like it, it, it's improving. Um
Julie: That's, that's the idea. The idea is it's if we give it some space, it will peak and then start to dissipate Sometimes there's something that's blocking that from happening, but it sounds like, you know, let me ask you this.
Do you feel a bit more calm?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah. It's definitely- Okay ... definitely more calming. Julie: Okay.
Mike: And it's, it, it, we're, and I, again, me being me, I, it's very hard to not step into my mind of what does this mean? Where is this going?[00:27:00]
Julie: Do you feel that you're staying there a bit longer than when we first started this work?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. You're, you're, you're training your body to, to stay in it. Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And so I want you to just tell that to Rachel, that, you know, when I can sit with this sensation in my body, the, the tightening and this bad feeling, it, it actually starts to kinda lower.
Mike: Yeah. When, when I can sit with my emotions and it- the sensations just kinda lessen, and the longer I can kinda stay in that space and just give the emotion space, so yeah.
Rachel: Great job.
I'm proud of you.
Julie: So you said you, you thrive on joy, and you- I see your face kinda light up and, and exhale, and both of you are smiling. Is this a joyful [00:28:00] place for you?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah, no, it, it is. It's, it's... I mean, it's like any time you can turn a, an anxious or an uncomfortable situation into a calming situation, that's, that's a win.
Yeah. That's, that's what it feels like we're able to do here.
Julie: Absolutely. And so what you did is you stayed emotionally engaged. You stayed with yourself, and then you shared the emotional experience with Rachel and brought her in on it. And that, Rachel, how is it for you to get invited into that?
Rachel: It's great.
It's like happy tears this time.
Julie: And, and so what would've happened in the cycle is if, you know, we would've just stayed in your head and, and talked about all of this from a real
cognitive place, then we would've missed the [00:29:00] opportunity to emotionally connect.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: The, the emotions would've been there.
The conversation would've been triggering them, but we would just ignore them and not give them a chance to heal and, and be shared.
Mike: Yeah. And if we replay that situation in my mind of where it did go was in, in my emotions and just my justification place is there, there was, in those instances, is there is a...
And I'm sure Rachel can experience it, but, or, or see it, but there's a, there's, there's a, a resentment and frustration towards Rachel in those, at, in those times. And that's, and it's because I'm, I'm not focusing on my emotions. I'm focusing my frustrations on kinda like what Rachel does to me almost in a sense, too, but it's, I do the same thing, is [00:30:00] it's, I'm focused, why are, why aren't you okay with this?
It's not, it's not, it's my inability to look, you know, at my emotions. It's focusing on her emotions, which is something that I've
Julie: Sure ... I'm
Mike: aware of.
Julie: So this is a moment when sh- when she is saying, "Hey, I wanna do something different from what your parents wanna do."
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And so when she shows up with this different idea, let's talk about what happens to you.
Um, and it, I'm, I'm sure that there are many areas of the relationship where she's, shows up with a different idea that's perfectly okay with you. Like, you don't, doesn't bother you at all. You're pretty accommodating. But w- when it comes to this issue, that's when it really takes you to this bad place. And so what does it mean, you know, again, I know, I know we've talked about this, but we're gonna go over it again.
[00:31:00] Um, what does it mean if she has a different idea? Where's that gonna put you? What do you now need h- uh, what's the, the problem that has just present, been presented to you when she wants to do the family a different way?
Mike: It's b- the way it feels is between a rock and a hard place. It's, you know, a- as we've done this work, it's knowing that one of my needs, you know, is not going to be met
Julie: Mm-hmm ...
Mike: by somebody.
Julie: Yeah. So e- either way, I have to disrupt a, a, a connection, an important connection.
Mike: Right. Yeah.
Julie: What is that like for you?
In that place where you're stuck between a rock and the hard place, and the rock is your connection with Rachel, and the hard place is your connection with your family. Is that [00:32:00] when your body goes into it?
Mike: Yeah. That's, that's like one of the worst places that I find myself in. It's, it's, it's like a lose-lose place.
And it's... And I, I feel like I have to be very, very careful with what I say to Rachel because, you know, everything that she's, you know, she's mentioned of, you know, you're gonna choose the family or, you know, and that's, that's like, it's just, it's super hard. It's a super hard place for me to be.
Julie: Yeah. It sounds, it sounds pretty awful.
And, and just again, uh, you know, because we have to keep repeating this, but do you feel that tension come up just as we shift over and back into this conversation?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. J- again, just kind of close your eyes and hone in there and let's... If we, if we just override that, you're just self-abandoning[00:33:00]
So what, what's the fear right here and now if we put some words to... I- is there any fear just talking about it in front of Rachel right here and now?
Mike: There is, there's a, there's a slight uncomfortableness. I will say it, it's very much alleviated from where it was before kind of, you know, doing this work, if that makes sense.
Julie: Yeah, absolutely. It, it sounds like you, you have a little more trust that you can show up more authentically and that she can hold that with you.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So if I, if you had told me, "Yeah, I'm really scared to talk about this 'cause I'm afraid that she's going to be over there being triggered," then what I would've needed to do is, is teach you how to get some reassurance from her that it's okay.
You can, you can do this w- and she's not going to, [00:34:00] you know, she's with you here.
Mike: Great.
Julie: And if she's not with you here, then I need to, would need to pause that and go into talk about what's blocking her from being with you here. But we don't have to do that because you guys are already there. Let me just check that out with you, Rachel.
Am I reading that right? Are you here?
Rachel: Yes. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So again, you go to this place where it's like, "I have to let someone down," and I just wanna check out, does it seem to you... I think
Rachel has the perspective that she's kinda always the one that gets put on the back burner. It- does that, do you share that perspective?
Mike: I think there's, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth to that, just from the perspective and in
And I, I, you know, definitely acknowledging my, especially early on in our [00:35:00] relationship, you know, up until probably somewhat here recently, my, my gravitational pull to- towards the family has always been extremely strong. And that is, you know, understandably has left, you know, Rachel in a place of feeling alone
Julie: Right. Like, like she maybe doesn't get to do it her way enough, and then that leaves her going, "What? Ooh, do my needs really matter here too?"
Mike: Right.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Right.
Julie: And, and I don't... I wanna be really careful here because I don't want it to get to a situation where you have to put your needs for your family engagement involvement to the side.
I wanna find a way for you guys to meet each other. Um, but I d- you know, I do wanna make sure that we agree on a problem that you do recognize that there are times when it just seems easier to put her on the back burner.
Mike: I don't know if easier is the right word. It's, in a sense[00:36:00] Almost
I guess e-easier in the sense of, this may sound wrong, but like justifying it
is, you know, 'cause around, that's what I did on the, the whole birthday party situation. It was like, "Hey, it's a birthday. Like, you know, the family should be here." Um, and that's totally dismissive to Rachel's feelings, but it's, it's also the, when you're between a rock and a hard place, it's like which side is easier to justify?
Julie: Sure. Yeah.
Mike: It, that, you know, that's kinda where I go unfortunately or, or have went.
Julie: Yeah, and it, and I mean, it, I h- I appreciate your honesty. I don't think any of this is... I mean, this is just what we do when we're scared, is we're gonna take the path of least resistance. But what happens is, is then you're losing your intentionality.
You're just oper- you're just getting scared and kind of, you know, chaotically going forward toward what's, what's the [00:37:00] first easiest path to, to safety.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: H-how is it that, i-i-is it just that, you know, kind of historically it's been that she's, e-especially at first maybe, like she's pushed back less when she's disappointed?
Um
Mike: I think it, it probably does, and I'd be curious to get your opinion, but I think it, for me it comes from, I do think she, early on in the relationship you, you really just went with the flow on a lot of stuff, I would say. It seemed like.
Rachel: I think I was in, I was trying to fit in, and I was trying- ... to just align.
And then I really observed, and I think just the more that it impacted me, I mean, we're, we're talking [00:38:00] kind of a, a long history here of very, I think, seemingly simple things on the surface That gave me the message that the family was more important than me. Like- ... you know, we would be mid conversation about something, he'd get a phone call from family, and he would just take it.
Wouldn't, you know, wouldn't stay with me and just, he would not let that phone call go.
Julie: What happens if you
don't answer that call?
Mike: Usually, you know, usually nothing. They, you know, call back. Julie: Inside of you.
Mike: There, there is, uh... If, if my phone rings and it's, and it's Rachel, you know, the kids, brother, mom, dad, anybody in the close family, and I don't answer that, there's just a [00:39:00] huge amount of discomfort and anxiety around that.
Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So let, let's talk about that. Is the discomfort that feeling that comes up in your body? Yeah.
Mike: It, yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: It's, it's a, it's like a feeling, uh, where, and this is maybe somewhat, you know, bad, but it is what it is, and it's like my fear is always something's wrong. Okay. You know, us- usually, you know, e- even if it may be nothing, you know, life-threatening, but just something's wrong and
Julie: Okay.
So when you're, when you're having a conversation with Rachel and the phone rings and you look down and it says fam- some- a family member, th- that you're so compelled to answer because if you don't answer, how are you gonna feel? Is that when the, the bad feeling will come up?
Mike: Yeah. I mean, that's
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: yeah.
Julie: And so then the bad feeling you're saying is a fear, and one of the fears is, well, something bad happened. [00:40:00] And there's all kinds of consequences to something bad happen. We know where that will go. Is there another fear, though, that maybe something bad didn't happen, but they're gonna, you know, get kinda upset or whatever, or feel like they're being neglected if you don't answer?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So, so then we circle back to they'll be disappointed.
Mike: Right.
Julie: And so that- that's where You know, again, if, if they're disappointed, it doesn't end there. It's now the relationship is disrupted, and then where's that going to take you? What will that be like to disrupt your relationship with your family?
Mike: I mean, it's, yeah, it's a terrible place. Like I don't, I don't, you know Julie: Is it lo- is it lonely?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Does it [00:41:00] feel, like, vulnerable, like you, your support system isn't there, nobody has your back, like ...
Mike: Definitely. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. It reminds me of like a, you know, hermit crabs, and they have their shell, and they, they need to go find a new shell when they outgrow their shell, but in the process they're, they have no shell and they're vulnerable.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: There's, it's scary. Yeah. So you're, you, you lose your little shell in these moments.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And that's unsafe.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: See, yeah, that's seem- seemingly that's, yeah, like, interestingly, that's exactly where it goes. And really, there's no logical reason for it. You just, it's just, you know.
Julie: Well, there is a, there is a logical reason, but the fear isn't rational. But the, the fact that you have the fear is logical. There's some good reason that your body carries this, and we're gonna figure that out. But we all know that probably [00:42:00] that isn't gonna happen in this phone call, right? Right. Um, but what happens is, is this stuff gets stirred up, and it's so, it feels so real, and it feels so scary, and your, your nervous system does go to this bad place of the worst-case scenario.
Somewhere deep in you, you've felt that sense of loneliness and unsafety, and you don't wanna go back to it. And so is that when you just fi- and not in just in this situation, but in the other situations, is that when you just find yourself going with the flow? It's just easier to go with the flow and pick up the phone or say yes.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And do you do this in other parts of life, too?
Mike: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Yeah. And so, a- and listen, I, I always wanna say this, like going with the flow isn't a bad thing. You know, there's strength in going with the flow. Some people go to the opposite, and they're just obstinate. But, you [00:43:00] know, we also know that sometimes it doesn't work so well for you.
Mike: Right.
Julie: But what's making sense to me is that go with the flow is your safe place. Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: That's how you keep that connection strong and, and then you don't have to worry about the loss and the loneliness and n- not having support and all these terrible things. Right. And so that's what I want you to share with Rachel right now is, yes, that's, there's truth to this.
Going with the flow has always kept me safe.
Mike: Yeah. There's, there's a lot of truth to that. Going, going with the flow and, has always kept me safe and didn't rock the boat, so...
Julie: And how is that to put words to that and get clear?
Mike: I mean, it feels, yeah, it's, it's something that, you know, Rachel has said a long time.
. That I likely resisted in a lot of ways.
Julie: Yeah. So the information is not new, but what's new is now it's coming from [00:44:00] you as I help you walk through it. Yeah. And it feels right, it feels real, it feels true.
Mike: Right. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: I- in the past, I wonder if you associated that e- explanation as kind of a threat.
Like, "Oh, no, I'm not gonna be able to go with the flow anymore if I kinda follow her down this path."
Mike: Yeah. I think that's- Yeah ... where it kind of goes.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. The difference is this: we're bringing the fear into the conversation, and we're helping you walk through that fear and feel some of it, and you're recognizing it's not so bad to go there
Mike: Right.
Yep.
Julie: We're di- we're leaning into the fear instead of leaning away from it. And Rachel, how is it for you not to get the information, but to hear it coming from him?
Rachel: It feels good. Yeah. Feels good that he's open to recognizing what's going on [00:45:00] for him.
Julie: So, uh, uh, you know, again, just to organize here, what happens is, is that you have learned to stay safe by going with the flow so you don't have to go to that scary place of letting people down and, um, uh, and then your body and nervous system go to the consequence of that, which is this loss.
So you've learned to kind of just not have to go into all of that by going with the flow, keeping everybody happy. But then sometimes you're... The flow is like there's a fork in the river.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And if you go with this flow, you can't go with that flow, and you're not gonna be safe no matter what.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Right? And, and then, you know, it, it's been easier kind of historically in the relationship. You know, you've had many, many years of, with your family of learning just don't disappoint them, keep them happy. And then you had some years with Rachel where, um, [00:46:00] she was the opposite, where she would be like, "No, no, do what you need to do, do what you need to do."
She's trying to fit in and... But then that started to shift up over time. So there was a point where w- what happened is, is that she was no longer helping you go with the flow.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: She did help you go with the flow at first
Mike: Yeah. In a, in a lot of ways. I think that's, yeah
Julie: And, and so when she stopped going with the flow, some resentment came up
see And that makes so much sense to me
Mike: Yeah.
Yeah. And it wasn't like a sudden... I think as Rachel's, you know, has, you know, done a lot of self-work too, I think that that has And she's al- she, she's always said she's been ahead of me on this journey, which [00:47:00] is true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's... I think that's kinda where it was like a slow, gradual and like, you know, it wasn't like a, a, a point one day that it happened.
At least
I don't feel like
Rachel: I'm kinda curious though because the... To me, I guess I remember, like, some of the earliest moments were just the phone calls, right? Like, that seemed small. Like, "Huh, okay, well, I guess, you know, he's gonna take that, and I'll just wait over here for him to come back to me and finish this conversation."
Um, but I wonder if even when I pointed that out, like, was there a resentment there, you know, that far back before I really started kind of trying to stand my ground on bigger things? Like, was there a... And you may not even remember or be aware, but, like, was there resentment that far back around the little things
that gin- then just grew [00:48:00] bigger as I started voicing more, you know?
Mike: I think there's always been some level of resentment, no matter how big or small, if I didn't
Julie: Yeah ...
Mike: if I was unable to go with the flow.
Julie: Yeah. So it was i-i- in the, in the phone call situations, the stakes are lower, but so there was maybe just less feeling around that. But when it comes to the family events, that's when it would really get big.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. A- and I will say too, there's been, there's been times where I've had some level of resentment towards the family for, for wanting to go with, you know, the flow with, with Rachel. So, so it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's... That's kinda
Julie: But here's the thing. Y- you know, at the end of the day, y- you need more help from R- you, you need more help from Rachel.
She's your partner, right?
Mike: Right. [00:49:00]
Julie: You expect more help from her because that's what we do, is we w- the, the strongest attachment figure is the one that we want the most help from And so what were you really at the end of the day? You're, you're not asking her to go to the family party. You're asking her for what?
What were you asking her to help you with emotionally? If she goes to the party, what are you not gonna have to feel?
Mike: The, the disappointment
Julie: Yeah
Mike: It, yeah
Julie: The fear, the disappointment, the, the loss at the end of the day, the alo the alone. Goes deep, goes big
Mike: Yeah
Julie: Right? But you didn't know you were asking for her for emotional help Mike: No
Julie: You just know that now she's not helping you in the way that you've learned to help yourself by going with the flow
And then your body says, "Wait, no, this [00:50:00] isn't right." There's the anger. "I'm not getting helped by my wife." She, I'm, I mean, I'm guessing there's some feelings of abandonment in there.
Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julie: So that anger was saying, "Don't leave me alone with this." And what did that resentment tell you to do? Like, how did you try to manage that resentment?
First of all, before I go there, I want you to just share that with her, that, yeah, I, I was, that whole time I was experiencing it as an abandonment. Because in my mind, I wasn't getting the help, help, help from you to do what I've been doing
this whole time to help me with my feelings It's, it's not like that was gonna work anyway, right?
But that's the emotional need there that... Do you think she was able to see it that way?
Mike: I, I don't, I don't think so.
Julie: I highly doubt it, yeah. I think she just saw it as you just kinda being cold and really [00:51:00] just not really caring about her and just, you know, it's easy to just put her on the back burner. So I want you to tell her this new truth, and you go ahead.
What were you gonna say?
Mike: I think that that level of f- like frustration or anger was oftentimes, towards Rachel, was oftentimes the thing that allowed me to pick a flow in the river. Because when there's that, when there's that l- that frustration and anger towards Rachel, that's where it's like, "I'm mad at her.
I'm going-" Okay.
Julie: Yeah ...
Mike: I'm going with the family.
Julie: It felt easier to make her the bad guy.
Mike: Yes. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. You had an enemy. Yeah, okay. I mean, not really an enemy, but you
Mike: Not, not really, but it, it was, there was
Julie: The enemy was your bad feelings.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Right.
Julie: What's she the enemy for there? What is she, in [00:52:00] your mind, you know, it's not just she's telling you to do it differently.
It's she's not helping you with your feelings in a way that you expect more from her than you do your family.
Mike: Right. Yeah, that sense of abandonment I think is, is a good way of putting it.
Julie: Yeah, because you, you know, your, in your mind it's like, "Well, I want my partner to join me in this."
Mike: Right.
Julie: So, so put words to it again about the abandonment so we're really clear before I have you share it with her. What were you asking from her emotionally?
Mike: To see me, s- to see the feelings that I was having and, and help me to, I guess to, to avoid the disappointment and regulate.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.[00:53:00]
So, i- in a twisted up way, this was your way of asking for co-regulation? Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And the, and the anger comes in when it's like, "And she's not helping me. She's not there. She's not helping me, and I'm alone with this." But you didn't know how to say that.
Mike: Yeah. And, and there's, and there's been instances too, like when this happens, Rachel will get super frustrated with the situation because I, I, I will get to a place where I'm, like, frozen.
Like, I don't, I don't know how to answer what the family's asking. I don't know 100 Rachel, and she'll get fed up with me and she's like, "You know my answer. Figure it out." And that's like, "Ah." Yeah. Like, it's like a huge, like a huge... Like, I just got abandoned. Yeah. Like, it's terrible.
Julie: All right. Well, jumping in here, so this, you know, changes the, the landscape of their fights.
In the past, Rachel viewed Mike's compliance with his family [00:54:00] as him choosing them over her. But really, you know, what, what he's doing i- and he can learn to not do this, is choosing his fear of his own feelings over her, and that is real. But he is, um, revealing, you know, a different reality right here, that it, this is just about his family.
You know, he doesn't go with the flow just because he prefers his family way. Um, he does it because it's the coping mechanism for anxiety. So when Rachel refuses to go with the flow with him, which is a healthy move, um, ultimately,
you know, the, the pushback is healthy to get out of a system that's not working so that they can work together creating a new flow that works for both of them.
What goes through his mind is she's just stripping away his only life vest and leaving him to drown in his fear of disappointing people. So he was interpreting her boundary as an abandonment. All right. Well, let's get back in.
Okay, say that again, "I just got abandoned."
Mike: Yeah. I just... In that instance, I just got [00:55:00] abandoned and it's Julie: Yeah
Mike: that's the feeling that over, basically overtakes me, so.
Julie: Mm-hmm. What feels important about this for Rachel to know right now? I know there's, there's value in you knowing this. Uh, and what is the value in you knowing this, actually, is a better question. For you, just for you
Mike: It's It's understanding myself better and
Allowing myself to sit with those emotions myself rather than throwing all the weight to Rachel to saying, "You just abandoned me." That's not the intention from Rachel. Uh, you know, but that's, that's something that I, I recognize that
now 'cause I recognize that's how I have felt and that was the, you know, [00:56:00] the outcome of the anger And I think that's, you know
Julie: So if, if going with the flow and having her help you go with the flow has been your way of regulating this whole time-
Mike: Mm-hmm
Julie: you know, I, I self-regulate by going with the flow, and then I need for her to come in and help me out there. Do you think maybe we can get to a different way of regulating and co-regulating? Yeah. And so it doesn't have to be this thing where it's just like, well, if she just, you know, goes with the flow with me, then everything will be okay, 'cause there's so many downsides to that approach.
Mike: Right. And
Julie: And eventually it, it doesn't work- It's unrealistic ... in every situation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it does, and those times are, are easier times in life.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: But sometimes it doesn't, because sometimes it ends up not being so good for you [00:57:00] and not being so good for your relationship
Mike: Right.
Julie: So I want you to just put words to this for her and say, you know, "I have been asking you to go with the flow with me 'cause that's how I learn to regulate fear."
Mike: Yeah. I have been asking you to go with the flow with me 'cause that's how I regulate the fear and everything that I'm-- that's being uncomfortable to me. So
Julie: And how is it to share that with her so she can see more of you?
Mike: Yeah. It feels really good. I mean, it's, it's good to know that, you know, it's, it's super comforting to just...
I can just tell that her, her heart's open, you know, to, to the, how, how I've, you know, kind of come across to help her understand me.
Julie: Mm. What's really special about this is that this has all been [00:58:00] stemming from a way of you kind of trying to invite her in, not push her away.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: She just couldn't see that.
You couldn't see that. And so how does it feel, Rachel, for you to, to see it in this way and to hear him share that with you? Are you... Does your nervous system open up?
Rachel: Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. And it, it's open, and at the same time, I feel a lot of sadness
Julie: Yeah ...
Rachel: because I absolutely would have wanted to be there. I didn't know that's what he needed
Julie: So, so really what's ha- what you're telling me is now you have this urge to, to give him care and help him instead of just, you know, um, trying to stay pr- so protected and trying to [00:59:00] feel loved and valuable, which is so important. I, I don't think I'm wording this in the perfect way, but I think maybe you get what I'm trying to say.
Rachel: On the surface, it's appeared as though he's, he's just willing to self abandon to make everybody else happy. And that's hard to watch and not know what's really going on for him
And in the process, that just, he feels like they're more important. Julie: I'm not. Yeah. You're on the outs.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: You're not invited h- into him, and you're on the outs with the family and Rachel: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So when you hear him say, "That whole time I was trying to... I was just trying to reach for help because you're so important to me," it, it opens your heart.
Rachel: Yeah, that message can be perceived much better than- [01:00:00] than what's appearing on the surface
Julie: And, and just to be clear, it's not about now, now you have to accommodate everything. You know, that's not where we're going. It's just I want couples to be able to cooperate with each other out of empathy and love, not out of just fear of making each other mad or disappointed.
And it's so much... It just makes things flow. Speaking of flow, that's the way to get the flow, right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: So in, in, in, you know, just again, to organize it in this cycle, what would happen is, Mike, you would get all these painful feelings. You don't wanna disappoint anyone and disrupt your attachments, which is a really beautiful part of you, by the way, just to let
put that out there. Um, Rachel, you're nodding your head. Um, and it, and so what you would do is, is you've learned over a long [01:01:00] stretch of time with your family to just kinda, all right, go with the flow. That, that keeps everything safe. That keeps them happy. That keeps me feeling safe. I don't have to go to the bad place.
And so then Rachel comes in, and she's your partner, and we all ex- you know, want and need this emotional support. But you don't have words for it. The emotions are there, and they're crying for help. And so, you know, you're... These situations come up, and you're saying, "Wait, what a minute. W- w what's going on?
You're not helping me regulate my fears by going with the flow." And then that hurt, and then that would leave you feeling abandoned, and then the anger and resentment would come in, saying, "This is, this isn't good. This isn't right." And then the way you dealt with that was just trying to convince her to j- justify it, convince her to see it otherwise, so then you don't have to feel, you know, like you're disappointing your fa- family.
You don't have to feel scared. You don't have to go to the lonely place, and you don't [01:02:00] have to be mad at her anymore
Mike: Yep
Julie: And then, you know, of course, Rachel, now you're getting the message, "Well, I don't even matter here. I'm just on the out." You don't get to see him
emotionally, and your, your needs around this issue don't really get taken so much into consideration, although I don't think that was actually the case.
Um, but it certainly appeared that way in the cycle, 'cause that's what cycles do, is they lie. And so then you had to protect yourself and kinda, uh, I don't know if double down is, is the right word, but you had to kinda, like, fight for your need. You were put in a position to fight for your need.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Because you're feeling abandoned, too. And then the more you fight for your need, then Mike, then now you're getting all these messages that she's mad and it, it just keeps going. It just keeps cycling. [01:03:00]
Mike: Yeah. Downward spiral. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And so now we're just getting more clear about what's really happening on an emotional level, that it hasn't been your way of pushing her away.
It's actually been your way of trying to invite her in. And when we can get clear about these things, the conversations improve and, and we start connecting instead of disconnecting and having all these fears come up, and it does... Again, it, it just makes it so much easier to work through whether or not we're gonna go to the family thing.
And we still have some work to do around it.
Mike: Right.
Julie: I still wanna know more, Mike, about y- you know, your fears around this and how we can help you manage these fears in a new way, so you don't have to just keep regulating by going with the flow.
Mike: Right.
Julie: And I know it's hard to believe, but it can ac- it's actually a way to improve your life, you know, not make it more scary, and be more authentic and, and connect more deeply[01:04:00]
Mike: I believe that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Julie: All right, well let, let's just go ahead and, and stop here and pick back up tomorrow, um, if you guys are okay with that.
Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julie: All right, well, this is where we'll wrap up for today. You know, I love this session because it proves a fundamental truth about couples therapy.
The cycle lies to you. You know, for, for years, the cycle told Rachel that Mike was just a cold guy who cared more about his family's approval than her feelings. And for years, the cycle told Mike that Rachel was just an angry, critical partner who wouldn't help him keep the peace. Again, this is all happening, for the most part, outside of conscious awareness.
That's the beauty of bringing these cycles to, to the light, is we can really see more clearly what's going on. And as we peeled back the layers, the truth was something entirely different. Mike's passivity wasn't an act of [01:05:00] pushing Rachel away, although that was the effect. It was a, you know, desperate attempt to invite her in.
He was, you know, silently begging her to help him manage this lifetime of fear. And in the moment when he was able to articulate this, when he was able to own his fear instead of using it against her, um, or having it override her needs, Rachel didn't pull away. Her heart opened, and she was able to... She wanted to care for him.
Her empathy system opened. So for this week's reflection, you know, think about a time when you just went with the flow just to keep the peace in a way that maybe wasn't, wasn't the healthiest choice, you know, that, that did have a cost to your other relationships. Were you, you know, were you actually keeping the peace, or were you just abandoning your own needs to, to avoid the fear of disappointing someone and abandoning the people you care about along with that?
So as always, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a five-star rating on [01:06:00] Spotify or Apple. It really helps us get the word out to couples who need to hear this work to help their own relationship. Uh, a massive thank you to Mike and Rachel for sharing their truth, and just thank you to our audience for listening.
And until next time, take care of yourselves and your relationships.

Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course

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If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,

✓ Identify your triggers and what they’re really about

✓ Calm attachment anxiety without spiraling or protest

✓ Build secure self-support (so you’re not outsourcing safety)

✓ Communicate needs clearly, without shame or over-explaining

✓ Follow a self-paced path with guided practice

Needs & BoundariesRegulationRepair

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

S3 | Session 12: Between a Rock and a Hard Place: The Cost of "Going With the Flow"

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Anxious Attachment: Self-Work

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

S3 | Session 13: Always Second Place: Fighting to Be Your Partner's Priority

S3 | Session 11: You Can't Problem Solve Your Way Out of Pain