S3 | Session 8: When Your Partner Makes Decisions Without You
We are picking right back up with Rachel and Mike. Today, we revisit a highly charged memory that perfectly illustrates their negative cycle: a unilateral family decision made during a massive winter storm that completely brushed past Rachel's fierce reservations. For a widow who has already lived through losing a spouse, this wasn't just a disagreement about driving conditions—it was a life-or-death trigger that sent the crushing message that her voice didn't matter.
In this episode, we explore the clinical approach to anger. We uncover how a "sharp tongue" is often just a desperate, exhausted plea to be heard, and what happens when that fiery protest goes unvalidated and eventually burns out into silent despair. On the other side of the couch, Mike reveals how his endless logic and "word vomit" are actually a desperate shield to protect himself from the profound sadness of feeling utterly unseen and unappreciated. Witness what happens when the fortress finally comes down and they learn to hold space for each other's deepest wounds.
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S3 | Session 8: When Your Partner Makes Decisions Without You
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno, couples therapist and author of the book, secure Love. All right, so think about a time when you were so incredibly angry with your partner. Your heart was racing, your tone was sharp, and you were just
ready for a battle.
And then now ask yourself, was that anger actually just a desperate, exhausted plea to be heard? So today we're picking right back up with Rachel and Mike, and in the first half of the session we unpacked Rachel's deep wound of feeling dismissed. So today I'm going to guide them back to a highly emotionally charged memory that really perfectly illustrates their negative cycle.
So a few years ago during a massive winter storm, Mike made a unilateral decision with his family to travel and completely brushing past Rachel's fierce reservations. So for a widow who has already lived [00:01:00] through the nightmare of losing a spouse, this wasn't just a disagreement about driving conditions, this was a life or death trigger.
It sent the crushing message that her safety and her voice didn't matter. So you're going to hear my clinical approach to anger in this episode. Instead of trying to calm Rachel down or police her tone, I validate her protest, but we also discover a heartbreaking shift. Rachel's fiery protest didn't get her anywhere, so eventually it just burned out into silent despair.
But do pay attention, you know, to how we deal with anger here and what happens when you validate someone's protest. And I mean, within reason. Of course, if someone's getting so escalated and not safe at all, and you know, losing their temper and calling names, that might call for a different response. I have found over and over again that leaning into someone's protest, joining them there, validating it, saying, Hey, [00:02:00] I really get you, is ultimately what makes it diffuse.
Because anger's begging to be heard. Um, and then the idea is, is that. We're working on both sides. So when you can take the heat out of the anger and instead start expressing that the vulnerability under the anger, or at least expressing the anger with healthy assertion, that impacts the other partner more positively.
And then they start to shift, uh, and then the relationships starts to calm down and make room for safety and connectedness. And then we have fewer triggers
and reasons to get angry to begin with. So on the other side of the couch today, Mike, his own
justifications. Quote, unquote word vomit are actually a desperate shield to protect himself from the sadness of feeling utterly unseen and unappreciated. All right, so let's get back to the work. [00:03:00] Okay. Well, where we ended was, you know, talking about, first of all, Rachel, we had you. Get into some of your unhealed pain and be with that and process some of that and put some words to it.
And then what we learned, Mike, is that your heart is, you know more than a hundred percent into helping her in that place, but you haven't known how. And so what happens is, is your body gets scared because if you don't know how to help her there, then this is just all going to fail and you're gonna end up in the most painful place possible.
So no wonder your body gets afraid and then the cycle, what happens is that's when you deal with that fear by just trying to get her to not hurt, talk her out of it, or let her see that you weren't really doing anything wrong or appeasing her. Um, and you didn't do that this time. This time you did something different and you said, Hey, um, you know, I get [00:04:00] scared.
I don't know if you want me here. Which is so much progress again. So to follow up with that, I want to talk to you, Rachel, about what, what you think this place is needing from him. Again, let's kind of journey back, back there and just say, Hey look, you know, in these moments we're just dealing with this one, this one unmet attachment need right of, of feeling heard.
And the opposite of feeling heard is dismissed. So when you get these messages or when you fear getting these messages, that's when your body goes back to that really awful place of sadness in the grief around that. So I want to see if we can, you know, if you're willing, um. Because this is the space to work with it.
Right. I wanna see if you're willing to [00:05:00] kind of see if we can get back there, um, right now so we can try to talk to that place and understand more about what it it's longing for from Mike. So do you remember a time when you felt dismissed when that really did happen?
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, there's several instances that are easy to identify.
Julie: When was the last time or you, you tell me what comes up in your brain because that tells me what is, um, most powerful for you?
Rachel: Um, kind of beat the family dinner, birthday one up. So like, another one that I can remember was there was supposed to be a. Family trip. Um, and there was a, a big winter storm and [00:06:00] I did not feel comfortable going. And some of that is fear-based because, you know, at that time it's like I'm my par, my kids have already lost one parent.
I don't put myself in situations that I don't need to be in. Uh, and having lived in wintery weather and just knowing accidents happen, like I, I don't like traveling in winter, winter weather. Um, and basically the rest of his family was still going to forge ahead and he didn't even talk about it with me, and he just had a phone call with them and said, yeah, we'll pack up and get going.
And I was like, I, I can't believe after me voicing my hesitations and reservations that there was not even a discussion with me.
Julie: Okay. Okay. And so what message was did you get in that [00:07:00] Rachel: keeping the family happy is more important than your concerns. Julie: Okay, so, so that's a place of, you know, my needs don't matter here.
Right, and that hurts and that, you know, we have to get that fixed on both sides of the equation here because there's no such thing as safety and closeness when people don't know their needs matter. When around the, you know, the, especially around the biggest, most important things. But before we even get there, you're saying, I, I couldn't even feel heard about my concerns to begin with.
Rachel: No, 'cause we had all sat around the dinner table and talked about it, you know, two, three days beforehand, and I voiced to everyone, to Mike that I, I was not comfortable with it.
Julie: And so what is that like for you? Just going back to the pain in that, what, [00:08:00] what is it like for you to just put words to that, that you know, here, here we are again and, and unheard.
Dismissed.
Rachel: Yeah. Um, angry tightness in my chest.
Julie: Okay. Alright. Let's talk about the anger. Anger needs, needs to be heard and validated. What, what's, what's the fear here? You know, in this, in this
situation, your, um, you know, what's the consequence of, of taking this trip and it not going well in the snow?
Rachel: I mean, I'm, I can pretty easily go to catastrophizing and so it's, you know, there's an accident, something happened.
Somebody's hurt. Somebody's killed. And again, I'm dealing with where my kids are dealing with life-changing circumstances.
Julie: Yeah. And just as you put words to that, [00:09:00] somebody could get killed. What happens in your body?
Rachel: Feels like there's an elephant on my chest.
Julie: That's, that is a, that is a painful place. Your body is in pain right now. Just putting words to that.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And is that, what is that elephant on your chest? Is that, is the sadness coming up around that?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: About what that would be like if this terrible thing did happen. Rachel: Yeah. We know what it's like.
Julie: You know what it's like. The worst thing that could happen to you is your children not having parents
Rachel: or me losing Mike. I mean, you never know what's gonna happen in the night.
Julie: [00:10:00] Sure, yeah. All of this loss, all of these attachment losses,
and when it all, when we, at the end of the day, those are the things, the only things that really matter.
And so when, when you guys start talking about taking this trip, is that when the fear comes up?
Around this terrible thing happening. So just the conversation sends your body into, wait a minute, hold on. This doesn't feel safe for me. This devastating thing could happen. I, I have to protect my children from that. I have to protect myself from that. I have to protect Mike from that.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so we ha we can agree then that your body goes into a place of unsafety.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And then [00:11:00] you try to talk about that on safety because you're, you're needing some help with it, right?
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: At the very least, you're needing a discussion.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And when you can't even get that discussion, you, your body says, Hey, this isn't right.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: This is unjust.
Rachel: Yeah. Decisions in a marriage, like I, I want a partnership.
And so that didn't feel safe either because it, for a long time it hasn't felt like a partnership.
Julie: Right. And, and, and when it's not a partnership, that means, you know, and, and I'm Mike, I know this is not, you know, it's so straightforward for you, but you know, a partnership isn't making uni unilateral decisions.
And then, and at that point then it doesn't feel fair. It feels unjust. Right? It, and especially like we can, 'cause sometimes, [00:12:00] you know, get past it on the little things, but when it's something like. Life or death to you. It needs a, at least it needs a discussion. And to be heard, those concerns need space.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: So it is, it is not only understandable that you, your body would go into angry, it's healthy that your body would go into angry there because what is the anger saying,
Rachel: I need to be heard.
Julie: Yeah. I need to be heard. And so is the anger, you know, trying to bring attention to the, like what, first of all, what did you, what did the anger tell you to do?
Did it, in this moment, did it tell you to protest? Did it tell you to, I don't know what,
Rachel: at that time, that was a few years ago. Yeah. I definitely went into protest.
Julie: Okay. What was that protest trying to do? Was it trying to bring attention to the problem? Was it trying to, okay.
Rachel: Yeah, try attention to [00:13:00] why did my concerns not matter enough to warrant a discussion?
Julie: And, and then, so, so we know there's health in that anger, right? I mean, I wanna get you guys to the place where you don't have to go to anger to figure all this stuff out. Absolutely. But when we don't know how to figure it out. It is healthy to go to anger and have our bodies say, Hey, something needs to be
stood up here.
It's for here. This doesn't feel fair. And this is a really big issue for me, and I don't know how we resolve it, but at the very least we need to talk about it. But you can't talk about it because what's gonna happen? What's the fear that will happen if you talk about it?
Rachel: It'll fall flat.
Julie: Yeah. He'll get mad or he'll get defensive or somehow we'll go into this cycle. Okay. And then you're back to, we, we go back to square one, which is, I'm not going to be heard.
Rachel: Yeah, it, it's, yeah. I mean, that was the pattern. It was like I, I voiced my concerns because again, it was like I was trying to do things [00:14:00] different in this relationship, so I voiced them.
They were dismissed. It felt like the family was more important. I go to protest, it's, it was a very repetitive scenario, pattern, whatever
Julie: And that's back when your body was still trying to protest and kind of bring attention to all of this. And then now you're not doing that anymore because you've realized that strategy isn't getting you anywhere.
Rachel: Right. Okay.
Julie: Lots to say about this, but I'm gonna kind of pivot a little bit and ask you a question. Do you feel that as the protest has gone down, the pain has gone up?
Rachel: That's a good question.
Um,
that might be accurate.
Julie: Okay. Let's talk about that. What feels, what feels [00:15:00] true maybe about that?
Rachel: I've not thought of it that way before. So I think my brain is trying to catch up to that possibility. Um, it's almost like the protest became the forefront of the situation, which then just meant that I wasn't paying attention to the pain.
And so now that the protest. It's just decreased. It's not there. It's not the first reaction. Now the pain is highlighted.
So that makes a lot of sense and it makes a lot of sense just with over the last several months why this has all felt so big, so heavy. And I've mentioned to Mike several times, like it just feels like some of these things around the family dynamics around. Stepparent relationships. To me, it just feels [00:16:00] insurmountable.
Julie: Right. The protest wasn't, wasn't getting you anywhere. Rachel: No.
Julie: And do you think maybe what we're getting at here is maybe the protest turned into despair?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: and, and that's what anger, you know, will do when it isn't getting its, um, need met. Right? The anger is saying something needs to change,
Rachel: right
Julie: we don't always know what that is, but we do know that what needs to change is I don't need to hurt anymore.
I don't wanna hurt anymore. That's what the anger's saying is we gotta do something here because we can't just let this hurt keep happening.
And so the anger told your body, Hey, do something, get big protest. That didn't work. And eventually anger does give up.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: I mean it sometimes people live [00:17:00] in it forever, so, and that's, that's another bad option. But what happened to your anger is it turned into despair. You lost hope.
Okay, Julie, jumping in here.
So this is a crucial concept in
attachment theory. When an anxious partner uses a sharp tongue, um, as Rachel said, or intense anger, it's almost always a protest against disconnection. It's their body's alarm system screaming, look at me, I need you tell me I matter. But when that protest is met with logic and defensiveness or withdrawal over and over again, the anxious partner, just events eventually runs out of energy.
And I'm not even saying they don't have a role in this, um, because often they do, but almost always they do. But still, you know, that doesn't change the truth, that the protest is trying to get connection. And when it's met with disconnection, [00:18:00] the anxious partner. Can eventually just run out of energy and their anger collapses into despair.
And then that quiet detachment might look like peace to the avoidant partner, um, because for them, they're no longer getting messages that they're failing. Um, and so for them, it, it truly does feel like peace, but it's actually the most dangerous place for a relationship to be because it means the anxious partner has lost hope.
All right, so let's go back into this session.
What is it like for you right now just to get clear about that with yourself? That this is all really adding up and making sense?
Rachel: It's a really sucky place to be.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: And because I, with everything that I had lived through and meeting Mike and coming together, I had so much hope.
Julie: Right[00:19:00]
when you were, go ahead.
Rachel: To go from that to the despair and hopelessness.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: It's just been awful.
Julie: So when you were in the angry place again, that there was hope there. Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Do you think he saw that the anger was hope?
Rachel: Not at all.
Julie: What do you think he saw with the anger blaming him or attack? Like what? How did it come out?
Rachel: My understanding of what and how he saw it was that I just had a problem with his family.
Julie: Well, and how did he get that message? Did you, were you just like complaining about them or?
Rachel: I was trying to bring attention to all the behaviors and, and how things operate and how, again, to me that didn't seem [00:20:00] fair.
Julie: Okay.
Rachel: So I, so
Julie: you're just,
Rachel: I don't know that he had the ability to see or hear the anger. Any way other than a critical attack on him and his family.
Julie: Right. And, and I'm guessing that's how it was being delivered Rachel: Probably.
Julie: And, and I just wanna validate that there probably wasn't any other way that it could have been delivered that would, the relationship could hold.
So it's not, you know, like you're. You know, you were just scrambling around doing the best you could and, but you can say, yeah, it was kind of coming out as this just let's critical in attacking the family and trying him to get him to, to
see what's wrong with them. Because if guessing, if he can see what's wrong with them, then he will do [00:21:00] something about that.
Right.
Rachel: I think it was layered because I wanted him to see me and value me first. And so that's where the, the protest started is like, look here, look to me. I'm your partner. I'm your wife. Look to me first. Okay? Like, you're, you're married now. You should be looking to me first.
Julie: I just, I just kind of wanna know like. What you might own around the delivery that could have, like, understandably in the cycle led him to feel like he's just, I don't know, being attacked or,
Rachel: oh, yeah, my delivery was terrible.
Julie: Okay. What was, yeah, what was terrible about the delivery? Just so we have words for that.
Rachel: Um, because when I am, when I'm angry and protesting and like thinking back to that time in. I had very [00:22:00] little capacity to even be handling all of this, and I have a very sharp tongue. Okay. And I've, I've acknowledged that probably for the last 15 years of my life, that was a, that was a protective mechanism as well.
Julie: Yeah, absolutely. What does that sharp tongue say? Gimme an example of something that Sharp Tongue might say.
Rachel: I was just very direct and what I was, it was the edginess of my feelings coming out through my mouth of, and I don't remember back to this specific instance, like how I said anything, but it would've,
Mike: it was probably always, yeah, like seemingly highly critical or, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Highly critical. Yeah.
Julie: Okay, so you're the sharpness and criticalness comes out of you. And what we're learning is that, you know, you have this fear [00:23:00] around the. Situation of driving in the snow. The bad thing that can happen in the fear is all of this loss. It's terrible. That puts your nervous system into overdrive and now your nervous system is, is in pain and you're alone with it and nobody's helping you there.
And really we need to just start with, can we talk about this? But you can't talk about this. There's no space for any of it. And so that's when your body goes into anger and says, this isn't okay. I need some, I need some acknowledgement here. We need to have a talk about this. I need help. I'm, I'm hurting, I'm scared and I need some help from my husband and I can't get that help.
And so the anger says, well, you gotta do something. You gotta get some attention to this problem. And in your life, you've learned that you can maybe get some attention to the problem by being just kind of direct, but that comes out as this sharp and and critical. I'm gonna explain the problem. Okay.
Alright. And so [00:24:00] then Mike in the cycle, you don't, you know, you're not getting the hope and the anger. You're just getting feeling like, I don't know, misunderstood and kind of beat up by it. I, I'm guessing. And so what I wanna
do right now is I want Rachel you to share with him that all those years I know the anger, you know, wasn't working for us and the way that it was being delivered, but all those years there was hope there.
There was hope that we could get these needs met. And then at some point the anger gave up and now I'm just kind of stuck in despair. So he knows more about this big, big pain that your, you know, that what, like we, what we talked about earlier, um, in our last piece of work is, is feels very threatening to him.
I just want him to know a little bit more about it.
Rachel: Yeah. So in the past, in the [00:25:00] negative cycle, that anger was there because I was hopeful that it would spark some sort of. Awareness or change or attention consideration. And after so many cycles of that, the anger turned into despair and I lost hope.
Julie: Does any feel, does, does anything feel new about that for you to share that, Rachel,
Rachel: putting words to it. To explain what was going on on the inside of me and to know what's underneath the anger and why it was there. It was always like a desperation for things to change.
Julie: Did you ever feel validated for that anger? Not, not the delivery of the anger, but did you ever feel validated like this anger is, is understandable, it's healthy.
Rachel: No. [00:26:00]
Julie: Did you ever validate yourself for it?
Rachel: At that time, no. But since listening to you, I've understood that's just trying to tell you something important.
Okay,
Julie: so how does it feel just right here and now to have me validate that anger for you and help you with that?
Rachel: Feels really good, because I've never felt entitled to it before. I've always seen it as I'm bad or wrong for feeling.
Julie: Anger. Yeah. That that's not true at all. We all need to have our bodies communicate anger to us, and of course we need to be able to explore that and understand it and figure out what it's needing. And sometimes that's not what we think it is, but the anger itself is really important.
And especially in this situation when you were really scared and you needed some help and.[00:27:00]
The idea is that we don't want anybody getting stuck in anger, Rachel: right
Julie: that's the goal, but we don't get people unstuck from anger by just trying to chase the anger away and not listening to it. And it feels really good to me to be able to help you. Understand and validate this really important place in you that is, has something important to say.
And so Mike, I just wanna understand, does this make sense to you? Like, can you see the health and wisdom and hope in her anger in a new way right here and now as we put words to it? And just to put this out there, the same will apply to some of your anger that maybe we haven't talked about.
Mike: I think there's, it's kind of a, it's a really big, [00:28:00] kind of new awareness to make the correlation of anger to, you know, not, not feeling seen or heard.
And, and, you know, in this case, because it's, for me, it's always been the surface level that the appearance of anger, you know, obviously triggers all kinds of things within me, but I, I could never. You know, previously go to a place to understand, you know, that I guess the emotions behind that anger that Rachel May have been experiencing at that time.
It's always, it was always, it was always an kind of a, you know, she's being critical. The situation, she is attacking the situation. She doesn't, she just doesn't like the situation. You know, there's always so many things that I kind of told myself. And just kind of that, kind of steered how I behaved, you know, in those times.
But it, it is, yeah. I mean, and it, [00:29:00] you know,
Julie: so you're, you are saying, look, I, I do understand her anger better right now.
Mike: I do. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And does, and so I'm guessing that you're in a spot right now where you can actually validate that and say, Hey, I see the hope and health in your anger right now. You weren't just randomly trying to attack me or trying to get your way or whatever.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So I want you to just tell her that.
Mike: Yeah. I'm, I can now see the, just the, the hope and the health and the value and the anger that you had at those times. And it's. Yeah, it's understanding the emotions under it helps me understand how much pain and hurt you are in in those instances.
Julie: Rachel, how does that work for you and your nervous system right now?
To hear that [00:30:00] anger be leaned into and validated, not by me, not by you, but by your husband.
Rachel: It's a relief.
Julie: Yeah. Where's the relief in your body?
Rachel: Like a lightness.
Julie: Good. So we just did anger in a very, very healthy way. And what both of your nervous systems are experiencing is that it, um, actually helped you settle. Anger doesn't have to, when, you know, we do anger in a healthy way and there's obviously more work around it than just this. But when, when we do get there and do it in a healthy way, it actually, um.
Can be regulating the knee. Anger needs to be heard and validated before we can go forward with anything else.
And again, we're not [00:31:00] condoning or giving permission to angry behaviors that are destructive. Right?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: They see, I know you guys know that, but, um. So again, let me just pause here for a second and figure out where I would like to go. Unless you guys have a direction that you would like to go that something feels important to say.
Rachel: Dunno if we wanna. Touch on just what he was able to do different last night in the conversation around the other stuff. I dunno if you wanna jump back there.
Julie: Um, yeah, I do actually. Um, so what I would like to do with that then is just to kind of go in and understand what trigger comes up for him and how he managed that trigger in a new way.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Will that work?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Okay, so what's the first thing [00:32:00] that Mike, that she says or does that your body picks up the, you know, the, the trigger.
Mike: It's usually in the, in the instance of last night, it's, or sorry, it was what was said and that was. And, and that's one of the things that I recognize that I, I really did differently.
When I, when I took that pause and I said, Hey, we gotta put a pin in this. What I, what I did is I allowed myself the time to, which was basically all of Sunday, to feel that anger and really think about those emotions that I was feeling and why I, why it made me angry.
Julie: Before, before we go there, I wanna understand what got you here to begin with.
What did, what were her words that she said or did that [00:33:00] took you to this place?
Mike: They were, they were critical. Um, so
Julie: did she say, you know, I'm upset that it's unfair, or.
Mike: No, in, in this instance, you know, with where she was kind of relaying a message from, you know, from our daughter, it's, it was, she took very much, uh, at least in, in my opinion, she took very much of kind of a, Hey, you know, I don't really know how I feel about this, but this is what was said.
Um, I'm, you know, passing it along. And I think the part that, you know, was a little, you know, there was, there was multiple, there was, there was a, it was a relatively hard and heavy topic for me. And then I think what kind of threw [00:34:00] it a little bit over to the cri, you know, the critique side was, Hey, you know, I, I've had these concerns as well and it's, you know, basically what she said a little bit ago is like, Hey, I recognize these things you do.
That I don't really like him either, but I've never really said it, you know, until now, or I've said it in the past and you've dismissed it. Um, that's where it's kind of like, okay, this is, this is, it's not just something that our daughter said. It's something that is also an issue, you know, between us that, you know, or, I don't wanna say an issue, but a topic that was brought up, you know, dismissed.
And that leaves me feeling, you know, and, um.
Julie: So she's saying like, I have a problem with you. This is more than just our daughter having a problem with you. This is now and I have a problem with you.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah.[00:35:00]
Julie: Is that what took you there? Was her having a problem with you or was there something else there that in that. Messaging. I'm trying to understand like if we can like distill this into an unmet need and, and it could be that the unmet need is, I don't feel like a successful partner in her eyes, um, when she has a problem with me and that, that takes me to a painful place.
Or it could be like, Hey, I don't feel so understood around this topic from my perspective. Or is there space for me to be heard here?
Mike: Yeah, I think it, there's, there's actually, you know, in a sense, what I kind of recognize is there's a lot of hurt around the topic within myself because it's,
it's something that I've, I've feel like I've done pretty well in terms of how I've [00:36:00] helped, you know, be a, a co-parent.
You know, in a, a blended family, um, okay. I feel like I've, I've, I've done pretty well and then that's, that's the best way I was trying to explain it to, to Rachel last night.
Julie: So you say, so she's trying to bring this thing up for you, but then when she brings it up, your nervous system gets hijacked because you say, wait a minute.
You know, I've, I've done all these things well, and I've tried so hard to do all of these things. Right. And does it feel like those things are just kind of getting brushed away in this moment?
Mike: Exactly. Kind of. There's no, yeah, there's, there's no really no even acknowledgement of it. It's just
Julie: Okay. And do you feel seen for all the areas that you are getting it right, just kind of overall?
Mike: No.
Julie: Okay. So you, you're don, you're saying, [00:37:00] look, I don't feel like I'm getting enough feedback. I feel like I get, you know, the, the things that I, the failures get brought up to me, but not the successes.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Okay. And what comes up when you say that? 'cause I sense some sadness coming up.
Mike: Yeah, I think just kind of, yeah, sadness and that, I think that's like where the kind of the hurt comes in.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Just not being, you know, in, in my sense not not being seen. Julie: Okay. So in unseen you have sadness and hurt.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So let's just hold there for a bit and just give some space to this place.
So I appreciate Mike, how quickly you were [00:38:00] able to go here. You know, you were just able to bypass all the words and trying to make sense of it, which are all important too, right? But you didn't get stuck there and. Just notice how quickly you're able just to get to the heart of it,
which is a lot of the time I'm walking around unseen and kind of just defined my by my failures. And you know, Rachel, I always have to say, I'm sure it's not so straightforward for you, but this is a real experience for you. And in this place of unseen is a lot of sadness and hurt. And it all gets tapped when she says, you know, when she brings this topic up.
And then in the past, you know, how would you, how would your body try to regulate and not go to that hurt place?
Mike: Justify it. [00:39:00]
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Justify it, and, yeah.
Julie: Okay. And what would that justifying say to her? What would it sound like? You're seeing it all wrong, or,
Mike: yeah. You're, you're seeing it all wrong. It's, it's not what I'm meant to do. It's, you know, it's. You know,
Julie: okay. And then what happens is then you're leaning your, your trigger just came up and scared you and says, oh, no, scary alarm bell. I'm not being seen. I don't wanna go to the painful place. And then it takes you out of her, and you can't lean in and kind of hear her because your nervous system is hijacked.
So you try to deal with all of this by just telling her, you know, giving her the facts and convincing her that she's seeing it wrong. And then now she's feeling unheard and going to her painful place around unheard. And then [00:40:00] in the past she would've protest or the anger would've come on board and protested and said, Hey, you gotta hear me And the sharp tongue or whatever.
And then that would've felt left you feeling, you know, attacked. And who knows where it would've ended. Right. But now we're really doing something new and we're really recognizing that you have some hurt here too that needs some help. But you, again, like we talked about last time, you don't advocate for that place until she starts bringing something up.
You, your pain only gets triggered when she brings something up. That's her pain, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So let me slow down just a bit and figure out what, well, let me ask you what feels new about just you, what you and me are talking about right here and now that maybe would be important for her to know.
It could be something around like, look, that when I go to [00:41:00] that justification place, it's my way of trying to regulate the pain that I'm feeling in this relationship too, that I don't talk about.
Mike: I think that's highly accurate. It's, it's kind of like a combination of justification and just word vomit, for lack of better words, just
Julie: mm-hmm.
Mike: Lots of, lots of talking to try and feel okay and comfortable with the situation.
Julie: So I just want you to tell her that all of those words are my way of protecting myself from this pain.
I don't know how to talk about this pain. I don't, I don't talk about,
Mike: yeah. All the justification and words is, you know, has been my way of [00:42:00] trying to, okay. I don't wanna talk. Talk. It makes me feel uncomfortable.
Julie: Okay, Julie, here. So we just hit something really important. You know, Mike finally connects the dots between his external behavior and his internal wound.
When Rachel brings up a problem, Mike's deepest insecurity, the fear that his hard work is a co-parent is invisible and unappreciated gets triggered. And then his sadness, his grief around feeling unseen that he doesn't know how to talk about is so overwhelming that he immediately throws up a shield of, you know, again, quote unquote word vomit and logical justifications to survive the moment.
That's how his nervous system has learned. To stay safe. He's not just trying to be randomly unavailable to her. That's how he learned to stay safe. And he, you know, he isn't trying to talk [00:43:00] Rachel out of her feelings. He's frantically trying to medicate his own pain. And we need to shift that. And that's what we're here doing.
And we first need to shine light on it. So by bringing this dynamic out of the shadows, they can finally stop fighting the cycle and start comforting each other. All right, well, let's jump back in and see what happens next. And, and I wanna get a little more clear about uncomfortable. It's not just uncomfortable, it's sad and hurt and unseen.
It's a very human place.
Mike: Yeah. And it's, it's sad and it's hurtful and it's just a hard place to be in. That's just feels like it's entirely unseen.
Julie: And then I want you to add one thing to that, which is, and I recognize in that, in this cycle, then that takes me away from your pain that's trying to be hurt. [00:44:00]
Mike: Yeah. And that's, and that really takes me away from your pain and my, my ability to even see it and be heard and the.
Julie: So how does it feel to put that all into words? And, and the goal here is of course, that we can deal with all of this pain and we can figure out what all of this pain is needing, you know, to be hurt and held and healed in the relationship. And what we see here, and we said this last time, is you are not asking and not getting, so it all comes up when she is asking and not getting.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So go ahead and you, you tell me you know, what it's like for you just to organize this and put some words here.
Mike: Yeah. It, [00:45:00] it feels good. It, it feels good to let Rachel know those
thoughts and emotions that I have. That it just really leaves me in a sad and dark place and unable to show up in the relationship and, and even hear her and see her for what she's telling me.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And then she ends up alone with her stuff, and then you end up alone with yours. I just wanna make sure that last piece is really clear.
You end up alone too. Your place of hurt needs as much help as does hers, and part of the healing is, is allowing her in to help you. And you know, of course her inviting you in and [00:46:00] allowing you in to help her too. So you're doing a, a great job and you know, how's this hitting your nervous system, Rachel?
Rachel: Again, it's a relief to hear what's really going on and get a better understanding of, I mean, we've spent so much time just triggering each other. It's unfortunate.
Julie: Yeah, like, and like I said, it happens so fast, nobody even has time to think about it,
Rachel: and we don't have the words and the skill
Julie: Right.
Rachel: To do it differently yet.
Julie: Right. You haven't known what was there to begin with, and even if you did, you didn't quite have the words for it. And even if you did, you wouldn't have known how to help each other with it. You didn't know how to. There's all these good reasons that these triggers have been hijacking both of you. This cycle is the enemy here.
You're we're seeing, I'm not really changing. I'm not trying to change anything about these experiences. [00:47:00] I'm just trying to change the way we communicate about them outside of a cycle. So that tells us that the whole time
the cycle has been the enemy. Yeah. And, um, so does it make sense to you that, you know, he.
He gets tripped up because he's also carrying these wounds around about being unseen, and that's one of the things that makes it hard for him to stay with you. Does that make some sense to you? Okay.
Rachel: Yeah, it absolutely does.
Julie: Okay. So I just want you to tell him that I see that it makes sense to me. Thank you for sharing that.
Rachel: Yeah, that makes total sense to me that you've got stuff going on on the inside of you.
I love that you've shared it with me.
Mike: Cool.
Julie: And how's your [00:48:00] nervous system, Mike? Just right here and now. After we do this work, after this work has been done,
Mike: it, it feels good. It's, it's definitely calming to, to, to be seen, heard, and acknowledged. Just kind of
Julie: good.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah, I, I mean, I would like to think that you're gonna get to walk away from this session feeling more seen, which is what we talked about, the wound and that, and the hurt and that, and, you know, Rachel, I, I hope that you get to walk around.
I mean, walk away from this feeling more heard and not dismiss. Yeah. Okay, well great work and let's pick back up then tomorrow morning. Alright, well that brings us to the close of this beautiful session. What a profound transformation we witnessed today. We started with two people. Trapped in their own lonely corners.
Rachel was carrying this agonizing belief that [00:49:00] her voice didn't matter and using a sharp tongue to desperately fight for connection until she simply
gave up and fell into despair. And I'm certain so many of you can relate to that either in yourself or. Seeing your partner fall into despair and it's really scary for, for everyone.
You know, Mike was walking around feeling completely unseen and suffocating under the weight of his perceived failures, and then using this en endless logic to build a fortress around his own sad, unappreciated heart. Today the fortress came down and when Mike was able to finally look at Rachel and validate the hope and health that was hiding underneath her anger, the relief in the room was really palpable.
So for the first time, they weren't adversaries triggering each other's deepest fears. They were partners holding space for each other's deepest. So I want you to think for this week for your homework, I want you to think about your own coping mechanisms. When you [00:50:00] feel deeply unseen or unheard by your partner, is that when you might pull out a sharp tongue to protest, or do you pull out the shield of logic and you know all of lots of words like Mike to defend yourself.
So the next time you feel that urge, I just challenge you to take a breath and step inside and say, what's going on with me right now? Just speak that vulnerable truth out loud. I'm hurting right now and I really need you to see me. Alright, well that brings us to the close of another session and I, I just want to again sincerely thank Rachel and Mike for sharing this healing journey with us.
Um, of course, send a thank you to all the listeners out there joining us for the ride. So we'll pick back up next week and until then, take care of yourself and your [00:51:00] relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
