S3 | Session 9: Resetting the TEMPO & Two Big Lies
Think about a time you caught your partner withholding the truth. If you've been there, you know the actual lie is only half the battle; the other half is the agonizing feeling of thinking you might be going crazy. Today, we tackle one of the most difficult hurdles in any relationship: broken trust.
Recently, Rachel's intuition flared up over a situation, and she pressed Mike for the truth, which he withheld. We map out the exact anatomy of this lie, discovering that Mike isn't a malicious deceiver, but a terrified partner who uses omission as the ultimate escape hatch when his fear of failing Rachel becomes unbearable. Witness the powerful shift when Mike finally takes accountability, and Rachel is hit with a flood of relief as she realizes she wasn't crazy to trust her own gut.
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S3 | Session 9: Resetting the TEMPO & Two Big Lies
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book, secure Love Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So think of a time that you caught your partner. Withholding the truth.
Just, you know, raise your hand if you've ever felt that awful, just twisted feeling in your gut, you know, knowing something is wrong. Pressing for the truth and, and just getting the response that you're overreacting. And then finally, you just finally find the evidence that you were right the whole time.
So if you've been there, you know that the actual lie is only half the battle. The other half is the agonizing feeling of thinking that you, you know, you're just going crazy. So today, that's exactly where we find Rachel and Mike we're gonna tackle one of the most. Difficult hurdles [00:01:00] in any relationship, which is broken trust.
So recently Rachel's intuition flared up over a situation at work and she pressed Mike for the truth and he withheld that from her. So for Rachel, this wasn't just a miscommunication, it was a quote unquote paper cut on top of a massive unhealed wound from a year ago when Mike hid a really big financial.
Decision from her. So in this episode, you're going to hear my specific clinical techniques for mapping out this, you know, unsafe negative cycle. And we'll go back to this tempo method that we learned earlier in this season. And I am going to just guide them step by step through the exact anatomy of this lie.
We're gonna discover that Mike isn't just this malicious random deceiver. Um, he was eight. In this moment, a terrified on, on an emotional level, um, [00:02:00] scared of, of the repercussions of losing her. And so he uses omission as the ultimate escape hatch when his fears of failing her become too unbearable. And he's stuck in a conflict that he has never learned how to resolve emotionally within himself.
Lying for many people when they don't know how to do their emotions can seem like a safe response in the moment. Of course, it doesn't ever usually work out so well. So as Mike says in this session. If I can't avoid the discomfort, then lying can be my last resort. But the most powerful moment today comes when Mike finally takes accountability.
Then Rachel is hit with a flood of anger. And on top of that relief, as she realizes, you know, I wasn't crazy and I shouldn't have doubted myself. But before we jump into today's session, let's start with a question from one of our listeners. So Laura says, hi, Julie. Thank you so much for your work on the podcast.
[00:03:00] I really find it helpful to see the dynamics of attachment play out in real couples instead of just learning about it on an abstract level. After listening to the episode so far, I'm curious about something that I've noticed in my own relationship. I've had a hard time pinning down the attachment styles for myself and my husband.
Normally, the anxious avoidant dynamic seems to be described as somewhat clear cut. But I can't help but see elements of both in each of us. For example, when I'm triggered, I have definitely responded in an anxious way like Rachel, but I can also see myself in Mike with intellectualizing and downplaying when it's my husband.
Who is upset? Same seems to be true for him. He's very much defensive and avoidant when it's me who has the problem, but he can become the pursuer when he's triggered. Is this expected to some degree in that there's nuance of gender context history, but that we still mostly lean to one type or another?
Or is it more of an [00:04:00] indicator of a different attachment style altogether like disorganized? Thanks for all you do, Laura. Thank you, Laura. That's a wonderful question. Um, you are correct. Not everybody fits perfectly into a box. I would say the vast majority of the couples that I work with do have pretty clear cut patterns.
But it sounds like you have a situation where the context can cause you guys to shift into different roles. Um, that's not uncommon. Um, it's especially common when we compare a couple's. Emotional cycle. How do they reach each other for emotional care and comfort and support versus their sexual cycle, which is how they try to reach each other, um, you know, sexually and a lot of times the sexual pursuer.
The relationship will be the emotional withdrawal and vice versa. So it sounds like in your relationship, something similar to that is happening, uh, when concerns are brought up. Again, you know, it's not, it's not uncommon. [00:05:00] What I tell people is don't get hung up on the labels. The labels are great if they help you get clarity and organize yourself and organize your relationship in a way that makes sense and helps you grow.
But. To use attachment theory. We don't have to have, we don't have to have the labels of styles. We're just looking at how people are responding to their own emotional pain in moments of disconnection when their attachment system gets activated. What you are telling me from your question is that the symptoms in your relationship are intellectualizing, downplaying.
You said you sometimes respond in an anxious way. So what I do is I just work with the symptoms as they show up in front of me. I know that someone with an avoidant attachment style is far more likely to be doing intellectualization in a relationship. Um, but I still work with the intellectualization no matter who's showing it.
I'm gonna work with it [00:06:00] in the same way, which is what happens that your body, instead of going in and kind of tapping into your own emotions and trying to do. You know, the, the situation with your partner from a place of more depth and vulnerability, what happens that your body is so pulled into intellectualizing as a way to stay safe, and how can we unwind that and learn new responses to that attachment distress?
So I hope that was a, a help, helpful answer. Thank you for your question. Alright, well let's dive into the session. You're doing pretty good. So what, what is pretty good? Let's hear the success.
Mike: So I think, I mean, yesterday was a, a good day for both of us professionally. So we got a a, a big project approved what we've been working on for, yeah, for, for a very long time.
It was a couple years in the making.
Julie: Wow. Well I bet that feels really good.
Mike: [00:07:00] It does. It does so it does, it does. But yeah, it's, um, with that comes with, you know, there's still a lot of challenges ahead. Um, so there's that just kind of that piece of it. And I think there's, um. I guess I, I kind of, and, and Julia, I don't know if you have a particular, uh, anything in mind for this
session, but there's, there is something that, or a, a topic that I would like to go through with you.
Julie: Sure, yeah. I will follow your lead on that. I do want to do something, um, before we get there, if that's okay. Um, okay. So are you. So you're okay. Pausing that. Okay. And um, before I jump in, Rachel, do you have anything that you would like to say?
Rachel: I don't think so. I mean, I think when we get to this other topic, it'll. [00:08:00]
That's probably where we will get into some stuff for me. But I mean, I think after our last session, things felt pretty good. We had a discussion about this other topic last night, and we both utilized new skills that felt different and, um,
Julie: great.
Rachel: So, but I'm noticing like the, the goodness that we felt felt really good until facing another challenging topic. And so just navigating that, not that it's an emotional rollercoaster, but you definitely go from hope to, oh dang, how much hope do I hold onto? So I'm just kind of wrestling with some of that this morning. I think.
Julie: So it went well, at least at first, and then it, you know, you bumped up against your limitations
Rachel: mm-hmm.
Julie: And went into that place where you, you know, I, I, I'm playing around with renaming and you guys [00:09:00] can gimme some feedback on that negative cycle to unsafe cycle. I think it's more descriptive because, you know, the, the emotions that we're dealing with in these cycles are negative, right? They're pain. And so it's just how we're doing.
Are we doing that pain? Are we doing that quote unquote negativity positive, uh, safely or not safely. So it sounds like you found yourselves going back into that unsafe territory and didn't know how to reestablish the safety.
Rachel: I think, I don't know that it. I didn't necess I, yeah, I, sorry. I'm kind of all over the place.
That's okay. I, because it was different last night when we faced the topic. Right. And so there's almost a discomfort around it being different, even though the different is improvement.
Mike: I would say I would, yeah, I would even say that the different [00:10:00] is, for me at least, it's more the, the conversation's more comfortable.
Rachel: Right. It was.
Mike: It's an uncomfortable conversation. It's more comfortable.
Julie: Let's do this, let's pause that so we give it the time it deserves. Yeah. And before we go there, let me, I just wanna check out, you know, how this is kind of a, an assessment of how well you guys know your cycle. So I'm gonna ask you some questions and.
There's no right or wrong, it's just me trying to figure out where we are so I can make sure that we do the work that we need to do. Um, so I'll start with you, Rachel. Um, y you know, we're, um, since you know this tempo, um, scaffolding, then I'm gonna going to use that. So I wanna know. If you, you know, understand what in, I know the answer's going to be yes.
At least on this one. Um, what triggers you, like, what might Mike say or do that is going to take your nervous system to unsafe [00:11:00] and, and this can be just, you know, um, a theme or just one time? Um,
Rachel: uh, yeah, I mean, I dunno that I can nail it down exactly. It's, it's typically around. Family dynamics, withholding information.
Um,
Julie: okay, so let's say, um, he says something that. About the family that you just don't, doesn't hit you right. You just don't like, okay. And so then we're go, the reason that you don't like it, the reason that it doesn't feel good for you is because there will be an unmet attachment need in that, right?
Mm-hmm.
And
that's kind of the meaning that your nervous system makes in this moment. So can you put words to. Um, what unmet attachment needs can happen in these messages that you don't like?[00:12:00]
Rachel: Is this like the fear and abandonment and rejection? Julie: No, I appreciate.
Rachel: What are the, what are the names of Aban or unmet needs that you're like, what are the options, I guess?
Julie: Yeah, so it would be like, you know, anything that you need to feel safe and close in the relationship, it's gonna be the opposite of that.
So it would be like, I don't feel understood. I don't feel shown up for, I don't feel cared for, I don't feel heard, I don't feel understood. I don't feel valuable. I don't feel like I'm being successful In your eyes. I feel like you're seeing me as a, you
know, I don't, well, the opposite of that would be, I feel you're seeing me as a failure.
Um, so, you know, that's kind of the most common list. So that, notice how that isn't a feeling. That is a message, and we'll get to the feeling in a minute, but I need to know. [00:13:00] If you can help me understand, you know, put words to it. And again, you're not supposed to know how, that's how I'm going to know where to go with this.
Rachel: Okay. Yeah, I mean all of those seen, heard, valued, respected, honored.
Julie: Okay.
Okay. So I'm gonna just stick with unheard unseen, and. Did you say? Oh, not, not valued,
Rachel: considered was a big one too. Not feeling considered.
Julie: Okay, so if I'm going to just condense this, it. The broad categories are, I feel unseen, I feel unheard, I feel un devalued or unvalued. I wouldn't say devalued, don't feel valuable.
Um, and I don't feel shown up for, and I think that's the biggest one is I just don't feel shown up for and the way that I'm needing. Right. Okay. [00:14:00] And again, these are attachment needs because. They are what people need to feel safe and close. And this isn't just true for romantic relationships. This is true for all relationships.
I mean. Even if you're in a work relationship and you're communicating with someone trying to figure out a problem with them, if you're not feeling understood, if you're not feeling kind of validated, for at least you know where you're coming from or seen, um, or valuable to them, you're not going to feel safe with them.
Period. Right, right. Yeah. Now we might not need to feel close with that person. It is different in our love relationships. The, the, we need, we have more needs. The stakes are higher. If those needs don't get met, we, we don't really need to be so emotionally validated by our coworker, maybe in some situations, but we need that from our partner.
So the needs are more and they're [00:15:00] higher, but still we're talking about this isn't a self need. Okay, there are self needs, but when we're talking about attachment needs, we're, again, I know I keep saying the same thing over and over, but I really wanna drive this message home. We're talking about what we need to feel safe and or close to someone else.
And then this relationship, we need both. And so, um, okay, so now you, you are talking about a topic and you know, you could be talking about any topic, but the reason this topic is gonna go into the cycle is because there's an unmet
need in it, an unmet attachment need. And in that unmet attachment need, I don't feel seen, I don't feel heard, I don't feel valued.
And now what comes up in your body? In that it to unmet need Rachel: fear.
Julie: And where does that fear sit?
Rachel: [00:16:00] It's the anxiety and just discomfort in my chest. Julie: Okay.
Rachel: And sometimes it, it is a tightness in my head.
Julie: Okay.
Okay. So when this need goes unmet. You know, your body responds to that without even thinking. It's all not conscious. It's all unconscious when it happens. You're, you're not sitting there going, oh, I'm getting this message from him that's creating this unmet need. That's what I need for your mind to be able to do, but it's not there yet.
And then the fear comes up and we know that underneath that fear is, is other stuff, right? And what's underneath that fear? What is the fear fearing? That's where we're going to get into the vulnerability.
Rachel: That it's so bad that [00:17:00] for whatever reason, either he's gonna go away or we're not gonna figure this out and be able to,
Julie: so that's the, that's the consequence of the fear.
And how are you going to feel if that comes true? Either of those Rachel: just awful. It's like the worst pain that you can think of.
Julie: And when you say pain, you mean sad alone. You know, that's kind of always the bottom of the barrel grief.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Another wound to deal with in life.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Another one to pile up on the others.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: That's horrible. And so I don't mean to rush over this, but again, this is just me assessing where we are and your awareness of the cycle. And then so again, you get the message. And the message is the unmet need. The unmet need goes to fear and the fear goes to, to pain. And then what do you do in the [00:18:00] cycle to protect yourself and maybe historically and even today in, in the present.
The relationship and its presence
Rachel: again. I think it's, it's morphed over time. Uh, I'd say in the most recent past it's been shut down and silence and withdrawing.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: Um, interesting. And.
Sorry, go ahead.
Julie: What is the, um, what is the function of that shutdown? Why does your body do it? What is your body trying to do in that shutdown?
Rachel: Just not engage with anything that cause more pain.
Julie: So it's trying to escape the pain and there's no hope in him helping me. So I just need to go do this on my own.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: [00:19:00] Okay. And.
That's, you know, now you're, you're going into helping yourself, but in the past you would've protested.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And the protest is to beg him to help you.
Rachel: That's probably what the ultimate goal was. I always thought it was begging and pleading for him to see me and see what I was dealing with.
Julie: Right. Begging him to see.
And if he could see, then you would be helped emotionally,
Rachel: right
Julie: you are looking for co-regulation and you know that that protest is trying to bring attention to the problem. So he'll come to you and then if he comes to you now, you don't have to feel the fear and you don't have to feel the pain.
Rachel: That was [00:20:00] the hope.
Julie: Absolutely. That's what what I'm trying to to highlight here is the protest had a function, it was trying to do something important.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And it wasn't working. So then your body did, started to go to this other strategy, which is, well, he's not there to co-regulate, or somehow that's not landing, and so now I need to just go help myself.
So the O in tempo is organized. But before I organize this, I need to go over here to you, Mike, and understand, see what you know about this cycle and. This is really helpful to me because what happens for me is I know these cycles so well with couples. I mean, this is what I, because this is what I do. I mean, I don't know how to do your job, right?
So put me in your job and I'm gonna fail. [00:21:00] Miserably. But for me, it's so easy for me to see it. Sometimes I forget what other people see and can't see. And so what I'm learning here is that we still need to get some clarity around what goes on in this situation and slow it down because this is what I need you to have clarity around outside of here.
And so Mike. Let's just start with her, you know, going into protest or going into shutdown, because both of those are going to send you the message. She's upset and that's your trigger, right?
Mike: Yeah, yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so what, either you can start with either what happens in your body right there, or the meaning of her being upset.
That's such a threat, and that's the unmet need. So you can, you know, either way, and I can help you if you. Don't know where to start.
Mike: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's all kinds of thoughts, you know, depending on what it is. You know, it's, it's, you know, I've, I've [00:22:00] let her down again, you know, I've failed again or sometimes.
Julie: Okay, so we're gonna, we're gonna slow there since this is just an assessment and we're just gonna stick there, which is, I failed and in I failed is. I'm not being seen as a successful partner, which is something that I need to feel safe and close.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Can we agree on that? Okay. So the unmet need is I'm not being seen as successful in her eyes.
I'm seeing being seen as a failure and that. Is something that you need to feel safe and close. So that's your ouch. Right. And then what happens in your body right in that moment when you get this message? Uhoh, I'm failing again.
Mike: It, it's like a tightness in my chest and just like a anxious feeling.
Julie: Okay. [00:23:00] Okay. And then what do you do? To protect yourself. Oh, I'm sorry. I missed a piece. What is under that? What's the pain under the fear? Because the anxious is the fear, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: What happens if you, if this is true, if you are not successful for her, where's this gonna go?
Mike: Nowhere good. It's kind of like you kind of go into the Yeah, it's, it's, she's gonna get. Fed up with it, you know she's gonna wanna leave. She is.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: You know.
Julie: All right, so where this goes for you is loss, pain. She's gone. Sadness alone. Regret. That's the vulnerability,
Mike: right yeah.
Julie: Okay. That's what's on the line.
That's what's on the line here. Okay. And then now your body's gonna say, protect. Don't go there. Protect that pain. I've been [00:24:00] there. I know it. It's unbearable. And so then what do you do right there, or say to her to try to get this situation resolved so you don't have to go into the pain?
Mike: I'll try and, you know.
Explain or justify. Um, and actually one of the, this is where I was actually going with the other topic, but, and really
Julie: we're gonna go there, I promise, but right now we're gonna stick to simple, which is you try to explain and justify and what is the explaining and justifying, hoping for
what, if you could get her to understand and, and see what you're trying to explain.
Mike: It's like you hope for a deescalation of the situation. And it's like she, she understands and she comes back.
Julie: Okay, and so this is, this is it. [00:25:00] Right? Your body goes into, explain and justify. It tells you to do that. That yucky feeling tells you to do that. And if you, the hope in that is if she can hear me, she won't be mad and she won't go away, or she won't just build up all this resentment that will end up with me being in, in big pain.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So that's how your body tries to protect
Mike: and I think in some, just some instances. Is just an outright as well. When she pulls away, I pull away. We've been in that plenty of times.
Julie: Yeah. And that's usually what happens with the avoidant partner is they start with trying to deescalate, explain, justify, appease, and then when that doesn't work, they, they just.
Cut it out. They cut it. They cut it off. They try to just escape the pain.
Okay, Julie, jumping in here. So I wanna [00:26:00] highlight the exact progression of Mike, the avoidant partner, his defense mechanism. So when Mike senses that Rachel is upset his body, his nervous system, before he even has time to think interprets this based on a lot of past information that gets, you know, wired into him, he interprets it as I'm a failure.
And then his first line of defense is just to throw out words explaining and justifying to try and just quickly put the fire out so she won't leave him or reject him. But when she doesn't instantly calm down, then his nervous system gets so overwhelmed by this mounting failure and that, that he pulls the rip chord.
He just shuts down or worse, he bends the truth to kind of force the conflict to end in the moment and we'll just kind of deal with it later, is obviously without
thinking about it. So the goal isn't to hurt her. The goal is simply don't hurt, get [00:27:00] away from the pain, and that's what happens. When people grow up in homes where they don't ever learn how to deal with the pain is they have to learn all of these ways to not have to feel it.
Alright, well let's dive back in and see how this plays out
because what's happening in that not, you know, in the justify explain appease is it's failing. So now not only are you failing the original situation, now you're failing. Trying to keep her, get her to be happy. And it's just too much. And that's what you're shutting down, right?
Mike: Right, right.
Julie: And I know this is me moving fast. Again, I'm trying to figure out where we are. Um, and the hope in that is so you don't have to hurt, period. That's where the, the end game is. Don't hurt. Okay, so now I'm gonna do this. Oh. And organize it all. So, you know, usually this, these. Triggers are going to start with the anxious partner because not necessarily start there, but they're going to be the ones that bring it up.
That's, [00:28:00] that's the difference there. The avoid partners not bringing up problems because they don't wanna go into the conflict and they're good at just shutting it all out. So, you know, you Rachel, you're not good at shutting it out because anxious partners get overwhelmed by this stuff and they can't make it go away.
And so you. You know, um, you get a message that unmets your need and that unmet need is, I don't feel seen. I don't feel like I'm being shown up for in the way that I need to feel safe and close. Your body goes into fear. Your chest gets that tightness and the pressure in your head. That's the fear. And it's not just fear, it's the consequence of the fear, which is this isn't gonna work.
This is. You know, either it doesn't work or we stay stuck in this miserable place where this stuff just keeps getting triggered indefinitely. Then we have pain on top of pain. Your body knows that and it's sad and it's alone and there's grief there, and it's [00:29:00] so much, and so what your body used to do is with all this pain, it used to just go into protest, which is the pro, the function of the protest is I've got to get to pull him into me to help me.
If I, if I can just get him to see the problem, he'll, he'll change and he'll do the right thing, and then I won't have to hurt. And now your body does something
new. You've given up on that strategy, so you just go into, pull away. Don't bother reaching and helping yourself. I'm just gonna go try to help myself.
But that is, you know, also a lonely place to be. And so then. Now she's upset Mike. You either get there by her shutting down or her protesting. It doesn't matter. Your body knows she's upset. And then now your nervous system, the unmet need in that is I'm, I'm a failure to her. And that is when the tightness in your chest comes up and your nervous system [00:30:00] says, oh, no alarm bell.
This isn't, this is scary. It's fear because where this goes. Again, this isn't conscious. Where this goes is to loss and grief and alone and regret, and so what your body tells you to do, what you've learned to do with your pain is what people with avoidant attachment have learned to do. They've learned to explain, justify, appease, just her to be okay.
Get her to be okay. Because if I can just get her to hear the right words or see it in the right way, then she'll see me as good and, and we won't, and we'll get out of this mess, but that doesn't work. And then you just try to shut it out to get out
of the pain and you probably go distract with other activities that do help you feel successful.
Mike: Right,
Julie: right. And you go try to offset the failure with things that help you feel successful and you know, then. Now we're in it. And, and then, you [00:31:00] know, in the past, Rachel, that would trigger you more. And, and that's the cycle. So that's the organization of the pattern. So what I'm seeing right now is you guys have an idea of how this works, but you're still not super clear about.
All the, you know, the, the moving parts. And I wanna get you, before we're done with this work, I wanna get you more clear with all these moving parts. So I'm going to be having you put more words to it, um, and I'm gonna be more clear and we're going to use this example that you're about to share with me as a way to get a little more clear with what's going on.
Because the clearer you are, the clearer you'll be able to communicate about what you're needing from each other.
Rachel: Nailed it.
Julie: Okay, so let's go. Who, I just need to know, you know, the bird's eye view of this situation.
Mike: Okay. Yeah. So [00:32:00] I, there's, and there's been multiple instances, instances where this has happened and it's in.
Kind of where you were walking me into, uh, in that last exercise was, you know, the, my tendencies are, you know, the avoidance tendencies to justify and explain a situation, you know, that's uncomfortable to you. Basically deescalate the pressure I get out of the uncomfortableness. What I've noticed, and it's probably, I would assume fairly common, but there's times where I will either stretch the truth.
Um, basically omit information or sometimes even lie to try and make myself comfortable. And that's something that is, has been a big problem for Rachel and I because it's, you know, it's, that's a, it's a huge breach of the trust and safety that Rachel needs, [00:33:00] and I recognize that. But it's also, you know, I, I've, I've become aware of it, but it's also something that I.
Know myself well enough. I res it's my last resort. If I can't avoid, if I can't avoid the discomfort, then I can't just push it away. And I, and my justification, explanation isn't working, then it's, uh, you know, then that's like a, it's something that I have resorted to that's been, you know, kind of, in a sense, kind of cracked our foundation.
And I know that's, that's something that Rachel and I talked about last night. Um. Because, yeah, and I, you know, there's a lot of, and you know, and then you also kind of nailed it too in that last cycle. 'cause once that happens, then
there's a ton of regret around it, right? Once the truth comes out, then there's, it's just all downhill from there.
But, so that's in a nutshell, what I wanted to say. [00:34:00] Um. But we can take it, you know, and what it's, you know, there's been, yeah, it's, I don't know if we need to hone in on a particular instance or something like that, but it, it's, that's kind of,
Julie: I think it's, it's good to hone in on a particular instance because it helps us get to the emotions.
'cause these, you know, um, when we're not looking at a. Something specific. We're just kind of talking globally and it's hard to get you into, wow. What
happened for you right in that moment. So I would like to know when the last time this happened was
Rachel: I don't, referring back to the change in my protection behavior, I think it's somewhat tied. To the last really big time this happened because there was an instance like over a year ago, um, that happened, which [00:35:00] really broke my trust.
Julie: Okay, so since we don't wanna talk too much in detail about the content here, we're just going to call it two big lies.
So you're, you're carrying these two big lies around in your body and in your mind, right?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And I'm guessing that you've tried to get over it and tried to move past it, but you can't. It's unhealed and we can't talk ourselves and into healing in unhealed wounds. Right.
Rachel: And part of what makes it hard is just even a few months ago when talking about some of this, you know, he said.
You should trust me. You should.
Julie: Okay. So then that's where I wanna go next is when you try to talk about it, then you go into another cycle, and now it's not a paper cut on top of the wound. Now it's like, you know, [00:36:00] knifing the wound.
Rachel: Pretty much. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. It reopens it.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: So we just, again, so we have the wound and then we have.
These little things. And now we're trying to work through that and we have these paper cuts on the wound. And so then you're trying to address the wound and probably the paper cut at the same time. And then that goes into another cycle, which is now like, this sounds so violent, but knifing The wound.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And it's unbearable and overwhelming, and it's too much. And you guys haven't figured out how to do all of it at once. So we need to get in there and heal this wound. But before we can go there, I've gotta get you guys really clear about how this happens and how this comes up. So again, you're, you're carrying this around and what is this?
And I, little things lead to big feelings, so I don't really wanna call it little things, but what does this thing yesterday that, that brought all of this up?
Rachel: It's in our professional [00:37:00] world, but it, it was a situation that came about. Quickly, he had given me updates along the way. Some of the things weren't totally aligning and making sense to me, so I explicitly asked like, this is my understanding.
Is this accurate? And he and I, I did that twice and he did not correct me. Until late yesterday, there was like more information that came out. I put it together and I was like, this does not make sense to me because what you just told me does not align with what I said my understanding was, and you never corrected me.
So, okay. So
Julie: now you're getting the message that he's being, here we are again. We're lying.
Rachel: Yep. With withholding information, whatever it is.
Julie: Yeah, I mean, we can. Call it lying. It is lying, right? Withholding whatever. And, um, and I, and I [00:38:00] understand, Mike, it's probably not as straightforward for you, although it sounds like you do have some ownership over this, and we're gonna unpack that so we can get you to a place where you're not having to do this to, you know, stay safe.
Um, and listen, you know, I don't advocate lying. I don't condone lying. It, it will. Destroy or harm relationships, but this is very, very common for people who are in a position of struggling. There's almost always going to be some
lying taken place in a struggling relationship. So just to kind of normalize that, um, this doesn't mean you're some kind of like monster or just inherently dishonest person.
Um, so what is the unmet need?
Again, we wanna get into that. What do you need to know to feel safe and close to him that, [00:39:00] that you're not knowing in this moment?
Rachel: That I can trust what he tells me.
I need my partner to be truthful.
Julie: And, and in that trust is I need to know you are gonna show up for me. You're gonna protect me from feeling dropped and all the bad things that come along with being lied to.
Rachel: Right,
Julie: right. And, and, and that's what trust is about showing up. When you don't know that and what's coming up right now, just as you, you know, as we say, I need to know, I can trust him.
I need to know he is gonna be there and show up and protect me from this pain. What's the pain? Because I can see it on your face. You're tearing up.[00:40:00]
Rachel: It's lonely, it's scary, you know, just because you're in a relationship and a partnership.
You could feel really alone in that relationship.
Julie: And, and nothing is gonna take you to alone more than an unmet attachment need. And this is a big one. This is a big one. Well, they're all big, but,
Rachel: and there's, there's just such a history of not feeling protected.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And, and the truth is that even if you didn't have all those experiences in your past, it would still hurt.
Rachel: Right
Julie: but it doesn't just, when, when this happens in the present, it taps into all of it and all the grief just hits you. I want you, since we're, you know, just trying to slow down and get more clear about [00:41:00] these, these words, it's, I want
you to tell Mike when I don't know. That you're gonna be there for me and protect me from this pain.
I feel so alone and so sad in that,
Rachel: yeah, when I don't know that you can be there and show up for me and leaves me feeling really alone and really sad and scared.
Julie: So does that help you be more clear about the link between the unmet need and the pain? That this isn't just about lying?
Rachel: Yeah. .
Julie: So again, if I, if I say to you, what's the unmet attachment need in this place? What is it?
Rachel: Him showing up for me and protecting me.
Julie: That's the [00:42:00] heart of it.
Rachel: It's interesting because it feels selfish to say that,
Julie: well, that's his, his job, one of his jobs is to do his part to protect you from pain. He can't do all of it because some of the pain is, is, has nothing to do with him.
But we're working on the pain that he does have a role in, and it is his his job to protect you from that. As a partner, as someone who you know, you've committed your life to him, right? He deserves the same from you. That's what we're here doing is helping you guys protect each other from hurting in the ways that you can, in the ways that are appropriate.
There's nothing selfish about this ask,
[00:43:00] but we will talk about the fact that you go so quickly to it selfish, and we'll talk about that later because I need to do some self work with you around that.
And so Mike, I just wanna know, is this making sense to you or is how, actually, before I ask that question. What is happening in your heart right now? Are you open to hearing more about this?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, definitely. It's, it's such a, it's hard to hear and it, it's, it's so, you know, and, and it makes complete sense, just knowing that, you know, the, my role that it plays in, you know, kind of the breach of it, hitting her, you know, with, with that.
It's, it's like, it's, it's weird because it's like the opposite in my mind, you know, as it's like when, well, sometimes, you know, if I'm lying about [00:44:00] something, it's, it's oftentimes I've told myself I'm trying to protect her, but in that very instance, I'm doing the extreme opposite and actually really not protecting her because she's, that she needs the information to feel safe and close and connected, and that's, that's what's just.
It, it's, it's, yeah, it's like extreme opposites in my mind that's completely wrong. Like the whole script is wrong. That, you know, that leads us in this, in this place.
Julie: Okay, so let me, before we go forward, I wanna know for you, Rachel, how your nervous system is reacting as he speaks just right here and now.
Is it calming or is it escalating?
Rachel: It's a little bit escalated, which is kind of surprising because I appreciate how he's willing to come face this [00:45:00] and it's new behavior for him. But I am feeling like escalated right now.
Julie: Okay. I really, that's so important. I, and that's why I checked it out. So I wanna figure out what that is because Mike.
You know, you're not doing anything wrong, but my job is to help you show up right now in the most co-regulating way possible, because that's what's gonna heal us. And then we, you have some really important stuff to say and we're gonna get to that later. But I wanna go back over here and, and you know, Rachel, what you're saying is there's a lot of me that can take this in because it is new and it feels so much better that whatever than whatever was happening in the past.
But I just, can we just talk to that part that is getting a little escalated right now? Rachel: You can try. I don't know what's going on.
Julie: Well, that's why we're here is to put words to it and organize it all so it makes sense. So we can do new things. [00:46:00] You're, there's wisdom in this, in this part that is saying, well, something's not, not something's off.
It could be your stuff. It could be his stuff, but what is the message that you're getting from him?
Yeah. What, what is it? But let me ask you this. Where at the point where he was talking, did it start to your nervous system start to go up instead of down? What did he say?
Rachel: I don't know. My mind feels jumbled right now.
Julie: Okay. So let's just slow down. I'm going too fast. What does the jumbled need right now?
Rachel: I don't know.
I think it might almost be like there were so many times throughout the relationship that I would just have this gut feel that something was wasn't right, and that [00:47:00] I knew that it wasn't the truth, and I would just be like dismissed or. I, I ultimately ended up feeling crazy, and so it's like now that he's admitting it, it's almost like just this flood of
affirmation or confirmation or whatever you wanna call it, that I was right all alone. There was no reason for me to feel crazy.
Julie: Okay, Julie, here. So don't miss this really validating moment for Rachel. When an anxious partner, when anybody, any partner really, when their reality is constantly denied by their partner, who's over there scrambling around trying to cover their tracks.
You know, it causes profound emotional distress. It's, it's really painful, really confusing, really disorienting, you know, there's nothing to grab onto. [00:48:00] And so you know, the partner eventually can really stop trusting their own intuition. So notice what happens when Mike finally owns his behavior. Rachel gets angry, but that anger isn't a bad thing.
It's the healthy, righteous anger of a woman whose nervous system is finally allowed to say, I deserve the truth. My job here with Rachel isn't to quiet her anger. Um, it's to, it's to make sure that Mike can hold space for it because that's
what it needs to heal. So, alright, let's jump back into the session and see where we land here.
Is there some anger there?
Rachel: Yeah, I was just gonna say there's, there's anger.
Julie: All right, let's, I mean, anger hurts, but let's, let's dive into that. It has something important to say. What happens if we don't talk about the anger right now?
Rachel: I probably stay jumbled
Julie: and it'll come out outside of [00:49:00] here.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: So I wanna just really understand this anger.
What you're saying to me is that it's, it's good to hear this. It gives me some hope, but at the same time, for so long I felt crazy. I was right all along and I wasn't crazy.
Rachel: I wasn't crazy, and I shouldn't have doubted myself because I got to a point where I didn't even trust myself or my own thoughts.
Julie: So we need to figure out, you know what, this anger is needing to heal. Are you okay with the anger?
Rachel: What do you mean Okay with it?
Julie: Do you feel about the fact that you're angry? Do you feel like, is there a part of you that says, I shouldn't be angry, or I, I don't know.
Rachel: I think
it's accurate. It's,
it's spot on.
Julie: So are [00:50:00] you able to validate your anger and say, Hey, I can make space for you?
Rachel: Yeah,
Julie: you have something important to say.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. All right. So we don't need to do that work to get you to validate it because you already do So now, um, what is the anger saying? What is the anger saying you're not okay with?
Rachel: I'm not okay with being dismissed and disrespected. And not valued in a way that I get the truth.
Julie: And this anger's been with you. It was with you from the first time and then it, every time it happened, the anger probably got bigger and bigger
Rachel: and, and I, I had voiced after the first big one, like.[00:51:00] I deserve to be told the truth.
Julie: And what was the response?
Rachel: I don't remember. It was usually, you know, yes you do. And again, being told all the right things.
Julie: Okay. So it wasn't necessarily the response, it was the fact that it anger keeps being re-triggered because the same thing keeps happening. That re triggers it.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: The same unmet needs.
Rachel: Yeah. And I think it's gone from anger to just not angry anymore. 'cause it's more disappointment.
Julie: Well, we know it's there because it just got triggered.
Rachel: Right true.
Julie: My guess is that anger has turned into despair and like depression, some level of depression. That's what anger does. If it doesn't have a healthy outlet, it will somehow start eating you away on the inside.[00:52:00]
So I'm really glad that we're putting some words to it. Alright, well we're going to press pause right there for today. So what a heavy conversation. You know, we completely deconstructed the anatomy of this lie and we saw how Mike's paralyzing fear of disappointing. Rachel actually drove him to do the one thing that hurts her the most, withholding the truth.
We witnessed Rachel's profound relief. Her understandable anger in finally having her reality validated. She wasn't crazy. Her gut was right, but as we sit in this anger, we're really standing on a knife's edge here. So next week we're going to explore what happens when we get stuck in anger. When it's not clearing out, it's not getting relieved.
My job in that situation isn't to say to someone, well, stop being angry, or just tell the other person, stop doing the thing that's making them angry. I gotta figure out what's blocking the anger from being healed. Because anger, when it is healed it, we don't need to stay stuck in it. [00:53:00] So we're going to dig into Rachel's deep seated belief.
That her needs are simply too much to ask of anyone. Not all of her beliefs that, but she got enough of those messages wired into her in childhood that that little voice is still there. It's too much. It's too much. It's too much to ask of anyone, and we're going to trace that fear again all the way back to childhood.
So I want you to think about. The paper cuts in your relationship when you get a, you know, into a silly argument about the dishes or scheduling, what is the more. Wound underneath that, are you actually fighting about the dishes or are you fighting because you feel unseen? Unvalued unprotected. So this week, just try to name the deep wound that's hiding beneath the surface of the argument.
So send us a note or an email, a voice note or email to
support@thesecurerelationship.com with your thoughts. And always thank you to everyone for listening [00:54:00] and coming along this journey with us. And last but certainly not least, a big thank you to Mike and Rachel. For sharing their story with us. Thank you guys so much, and until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships and I'll see you next week.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
