S3 | Session 7: What Will Life Look Like if This Relationship Ends?
Think about a time you brought a really important concern to your partner, only to feel completely dismissed. When that happens over and over, you eventually stop bringing things up—not because the problem is solved, but because the pain of being unheard is just too heavy to keep risking.
That is exactly where we find Rachel today. Recently, Rachel's daughter came to her feeling like some recent situations involving their step-parent dynamic just hadn't been fair. Hearing her daughter's frustration sparked something in Rachel. It made her realize that she had been noticing those exact same unfair dynamics, but she had been keeping quiet because the last time she tried to voice her concerns, she felt completely dismissed.
In Emotionally Focused Therapy, we don't stay in the logistics of the fight. The specific details of the story don't actually matter, because conflict is always going to circle back to someone's attachment need going unmet. For Rachel, this private incident triggered a massive, ancient wound: the agonizing pain of feeling dismissed. And for Mike? Watching Rachel slip into that pain didn't just make him uncomfortable; it activated a terrifying catastrophization in his brain. His nervous system convinced him that he was going to fail her, the marriage would end, and he would be thrust back into the profound loneliness he experienced during his years as a single man. Today, you are going to hear what happens when we slow down the nervous system's automatic defenses and finally give these hidden fears a voice.
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S3 | Session 7: What Will Life Look Like if This Relationship Ends?
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno, couples therapist and author of the book Secure Love. So think about a time you brought up a really important concern to your partner only to feel completely dismissed. When that happens over and over,
you eventually stop bringing things up, not because the problem is solved, but because the pain of being unheard is just too heavy to keep risking.
So this is exactly where we find Rachel today. Now, as you listen to the beginning of this episode, you'll notice that we removed a small chunk of the. The backstory to respect Rachel's privacy about the specific situation that she was navigating. So recently, Rachel's daughter came to her feeling like some recent situations involving their, this stepparent dynamic and extended family.
Um, it just hadn't been fair for her, and her daughter even mentioned that if things didn't shift, [00:01:00] she might just have to say something. So hearing her daughter's frustration sparked something in Rachel, it made her realize. That she had also been noticing these exact same unfair dynamics, but she'd been just keeping quiet.
Well, why? Because the last time she tried to voice the concerns, she just felt dismissed. So as you'll hear today, Rachel finally decides to bring this up to Mike after a dinner date. But in EFT, again, we don't stay in the logistics of the fight. The specific details of the story don't, don't actually matter.
Once we get down into the unmet needs, um, because again, conflict is al always going to circle back to an unmet attachment need. And in that unmet attachment need, we have hurt. We have alone, we have betrayed or feeling abandoned, and then that goes into fear, and then that goes into either anxiety and, and this anger and this protective place where people start communicating.
So my technique is to gently guide the couple underneath those [00:02:00] surface details. To locate that raw attachment need. So for Rachel, this private incident triggered a old wound. You know, the, the terrible pain of feeling dismissed over and over and over. And for Mike, watching Rachel slip into that pain didn't just make him uncomfortable.
It activated a catastrophization in his brain. His nervous system in, in this place convinced him that he was going to fail her and fail the marriage. And, and the world's just going to end. This is where his nervous system goes. Again. It doesn't have to be rational. Sometimes it is, but it's, it's our nervous systems
going to the scariest place possible, um, as a way to try to prevent that terrible thing from happen, and he would've just thrust back into the profound.
Loneliness if this all came true into the profound loneliness that he experienced during his years as a single man. So today you're going to hear what [00:03:00] happens when we slow down the nervous systems, automatic defenses, and finally give these hidden fears a voice. So before we hop into today's session, I want to hear from.
You, the listeners, and we do have a voice note here from Lana.
Listener Segment: Hi Julie. I wanted to ask about this fear of disappointment. I feel like for me it's more the fear of what I'm going to experience as an emotion, as a result of it. So not so much fearing, disappointing others or hurting others as much as. What would that lead to with a knee?
The shame that I'll experience as a result of having failed some expectations. Is that something that you've, you've worked with often and do you think you find it more in avoidant touch style or it's not more common there? It's the same. I was curious because often we [00:04:00] say we, we feel disappointing others, but ultimately is it.
Deep down, is it more about our shame? We don't wanna touch the shame within us.
Julie: Alright, great question Lana. Uh, just to start, you know, with every couple I work with, we always do shame work. Shame work is incredibly important to this process. We, we will not heal until we've done some shame work. Um, but shame is extremely vulnerable for people to talk about.
And it requires a ton of safety. So if I bring a client into shame too early in the process and their partner isn't yet able to hold that with them because their own triggers take over, um, it can really feel like a major drop. And once that happens, it can take, you know, it's. It's harder to get that person to trust, come back in and trust the process because they, they felt so dropped in that really tender place.
Um, and then a couple other reasons, we, we have to wait until later to work on shame [00:05:00] is that some people are, you know, they don't wanna go there in their own self. It's just so painful and so powerful there, uh, the emotion of shame is so powerful that they'll just kind of dart around avoiding it. Um, so it's actually.
More efficient to wait until they've worked on those, done some extensive work on those other emotions over, you know, on the, on the surface, um, covering shame, um, and starting to learn that hey, we can handle some of these harder places and ease our way into shame. Um, and then some people just really don't know that they have shame.
Um, they, they are so disconnected from it, and so it takes a while to start getting them emotionally engaged with themself, uh, before, you know, the shame starts to kind of emerge on its own and then, you know. Following up and, and addressing more specifically your question about, um, disappointment being about shame.
Yes. Disappointment is, is really the trigger, and the [00:06:00] trigger is going to take us to the layers of emotion. Um, the emotional sequencing I call it in my book. Um. The elevator of experience and shame is part of those layers. Um, so, you know, if you, if you listen to this season or the, or the past two season, um, the work deepens into shame.
Um, so we start, you know, to just kind of give a brief overview. The, the top most layer is, is getting for Mike. And it sounds like disappointment's an issue, you know, something that's a sensitive place for you too. Um, for Mike, the trigger is he gets a me He might get a message from his mom that he's disappointing her.
So the disappointment is the entry point, but it's not the core feeling. The diff disappointment is then going to go to fear, and we once, once we get into fear, the question becomes, well, fear of what? And[00:07:00]
bad about myself.
For some people, I would say most people, it doesn't end there. It does go into that shame place. And the shame place says, and these bad things will happen because maybe there's just something flawed about me. Maybe I'm my, I am just an uncaring son. Um, and again, not everybody has those strong shame patterns.
Most people do, especially if they're coming to couples therapy. Um, and then, but it doesn't end with shame. Underneath shame. There's actually a deeper level, and that's unprocessed. Grief. So again, the pros, the, the sequencing looks like the trigger, which is the disappointment. That goes to the fear, that goes to the consequence of the fear that then hits the shame, which is all overlaying this unprocessed grief.
Alright, so, oh, and, and just to add to that, um, for other people, the pathway is different. Disappointment isn't [00:08:00] going to be the thing that takes them there. Their entry point, their biggest triggers might be a fear of abandonment. Any messages that they're being abandoned or messages that they're failing, or
messages that they're just powerless in the relationship and their needs don't matter.
Um, and, you know, most people have more than one trigger, right? Um. And, uh, see, was gonna add one more thing to that, um,
oh, you, I'm sorry. You asked if, um. Disappointment is, is unique to avoidant attachment. I, I would say most of the people that I work with who are really sensitive to disappointing others do have, tend toward more of that, uh, avoidant attachment side of things. Um, that doesn't mean someone with more of that anxious attachment, um, will also have, you know, fears of disappointing others, but it does seem to be more common with avoidant attachment.
So thank you, Laura for [00:09:00] that. Great question, uh, listeners, keep your voice notes and emails coming. You know, we love it. I love to hear the feedback and I love to answer the questions, so we might answer one of yours on an upcoming episode. All right, well, let's jump into our session with Rachel and Mike.
Alright, well, how, how was, uh, the last two or three days?
Mike: I think they're pretty good overall. I mean. The, the weekend was, was good. Um, it was pretty low key and uh, there was actually, you know, there was actually something that had come up and, you know, allowed us to practice our new skills if you, so that was, Rachel can jump in, but was able to help us work through it easier than it otherwise would've.
So, which is Okay.
Julie: Amazing. Can, can we talk about that and uh, just kind of map out what went well so we know what works?
Mike: Are you [00:10:00] okay with that or?
Rachel: Yeah. It's, it's around some. Of the stuff with my kids in coming together in the marriage. And so I don't necessarily want the details like out there, so I dunno if it's possible for us to talk through just really transparently, but not put it out there.
Julie: It is possible and the way that we'll do that is, um, well, we have a couple of options. One, I can, off the record, have you guys give me kind of the backstory. Or we can just kind of narrow it down to an attachment need because it's always going to circle back to someone's attachment need going unmet, and then what we do from there.
And so how we try to navigate this, getting this unmet need met. And apparently Sounds like you guys did did okay at that. Yeah.
Rachel: I dunno if we, I dunno that we yet know how to identify the unmet need. [00:11:00] Could you put your finger on it of what it is or was?
Mike: For, for me Or for you?
Rachel: Yeah, for you.
Mike: Uh, it took me a little bit.
Yeah. Yeah. It took me a little bit
Julie: and I'm really glad that you know that because now we know that's, uh, some, an area where we need some clarity, which is, let's get really clear about what starts. These cycles is always going to be a message that sends an unmet
need. Whether it's real or perceived. You know, sometimes it's not coming from the person who's unmet, unmuting the need.
It's just a perception. But either way, we need to get it sewed up. Um, because what happens is the unmet need has the vulnerable pain attached to it, right? And the vulnerable pain of that unmet need in that moment is attached to a lot of other. Vulnerable pain in life, in the relationship, in life before that.
And so [00:12:00] now your body's going, oh no, no, this is, this is the bad spot. This pain is so big in here. And then on top of that, I'm afraid of this never ending. Or there's fear around that. What if I don't, what if I'm not able to reach, what if I'm not able to get this unmet need met? And then from there, our bodies will either, you know, kind of will, will spike up into anxiety or anger or both.
And now we know the feeling is bad, but we're not attached to the vulnerability. We're just sitting in the anger and anxiety. And that's when our bodies say, well do something to make all this go away. And if you don't know and haven't been
taught how to do that in a healthy way, and your partner hasn't learned how to respond to that healthy way.
Then your body's gonna fall back on what it knows, which is the unhealthy ways of just trying to get, be heard or escape the situation is better than nothing at all. Right. And so, um, [00:13:00] maybe what we can do around this situation is you just tell me, um, you know, let's say there was an unmet need and we don't need to know exactly what it was.
Um, but that unmet need, we know kind of intellectually right here and now, it created pain. And then who went into anger or anxiety from there? Which, which of you? Yeah. You just tell me like, you know, maybe like who was triggered first.
Mike: Okay. Um, I guess how do you wanna, so.
Rachel: I don't know. There's,
Mike: I guess maybe
Rachel: there's backstory to it.
Mike: Yeah, I think maybe start, start with the backstory. Yeah. And then I can, when I got brought into it, I can chime in.
Rachel: There's backstory and that, I guess that's kind of what I don't want out there, but,
Julie: okay. So the backstory is that your daughter comes to you and says, Hey, I'm not happy with some of the, this stuff that's going on.
Um, that feels kind of unfair to [00:14:00] me. You know, we're navigating this, um, stepparent situation and. It, you know, some things happened on the trip and some things I've noticed when the extended family is together and it just doesn't feel fair and she brings this to you and you're able to take that in and hold it, and then she says, you know, and if, if something doesn't shift the next time we're around, then I just might have to say something.
And so then that takes you to a place where you start to kind of question. I've noticed these things too. Why haven't I brought them up?
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And so then what happens from there is that, you know, at some point you decide, Hey, I'm gonna bring this up at dinner.
Rachel: I knew I needed to bring it up, um, because I wanted her to feel seen. And so I know that I need to address it.
Julie: What, [00:15:00] let me ask you this, you know, just kind of exploring here, um, because these feelings were. Lingering around in you?
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Why did it need to come from her for you to feel safe bringing it up?
Rachel: I think I actually have brought it up a different time throughout the relationship, and it was dismissed. Okay. Or
I felt dismissed.
Julie: And what, um, you know, what is that, what is that like for you on a, on a deeper level? Well, first let's, um, just kind of get clear about the attachment need there and the attachment need that is going unmet there. I
mean. Can we agree that it's really kind of impossible [00:16:00] to feel safe and close in a moment when we're being dismissed or if we feel the overall context of the relationship, if I bring something important up, we're not gonna be able to talk about it, and instead I'm gonna feel dismissed. Yeah. And so I, to me that seems that the attachment need there is, I, I just need to feel heard.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay, so step one is just feeling heard.
You know, we also might need to feel responded to around the logistical stuff. Right? But, but before we even get there, you just need to feel heard.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And what comes up as you, you know, put as we say, hey. There are times here when I, when I feel
really unheard and dismissed,
Rachel: it's painful,[00:17:00]
Julie: so let's just hold.
Can you, um, say more about the pain, what that pain is? Is it alone? Is it sad? Is it invisible?
Rachel: Both. Yeah.
All the above.
Julie: Okay. Can you say those words?
Rachel: It's sad and it makes me feel alone
to not be heard.
Julie: And this is a place your body knows. Yeah,
Rachel: my whole life.
Julie: So we're just gonna kind of linger here longer than what you're used to. [00:18:00]
You've had so many experiences in life of being alone and unheard,
and every single time it happened in these important relationships, it, it hurt you and no one's ever been there to help and you haven't known how to help yourself. And so.
Here we are.
There's a lot of loss here, a lot of grief,
and I'm really sorry that you have kept having to go back to this awful place in life over and over again with no help. I'm sorry that you've been alone here. How is it to, to just be here? Let the tears come..[00:19:00]
Rachel: It's a relief to let the tears.
There's just a hollowness in my chest that I wanna get away from.
Julie: Okay. Okay, Julie, jumping in here. So listen to how beautifully Rachel describes this physical sensation of ancient pain. She, she calls it a hollowness in her chest that she wants to get away from when we carry around this unhealed grief.
You know, that comes from a lifetime of feeling unheard. Every single moment that someone feels un unheard, there's an unmet need there. And it's a little bit, it's a little loss. It's a loss of feeling safe and connected. And with every single one of these losses, there's a little bit of grief there and it builds up like a thousand paper cuts.
So, you know, she's talking about this lifetime of feeling unheard moment after moment of it, you know, touching that wound feels. [00:20:00] Incredibly dangerous to our nervous systems. The body's alarm bell rings and it, it says, run away to shut down or just somehow change your environment so you don't have to feel it.
And this is why I step in here to co-regulate with her by validating that her urge to run away from this place, it makes complete sense. And by doing that, I'm actually helping her nervous system realize that she's safe enough to stay there. You know, we're both working together here to teach her body that she can visit this pain without getting stuck in it forever.
Alright, well let's jump back in and see how this plays out.
I would certainly expect that. This is very, very new. Can you tell me more about the hollowness that, you know? What word would you put to that hollowness? If you wanna get away from it. I'm gonna guess it's, it's a fear, it's a overwhelm. I don't know.
Rachel: Um, the first thing that comes to mind is just a lot of sadness. [00:21:00] 'cause of how often in, in how many ways. It is such a pattern.
Julie: Okay. So it, it just feels very big. Just very big. Okay. And is there something about that bigness that feels unsafe? Just how big this is, how deep this goes, how far back this goes, how often it gets touched.
Rachel: It doesn't feel unsafe.
It's such a heaviness to carry.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Okay. So you go, you go into this place, right? And this is not what you're used to doing. You say to me, look, there is some relief here. You're giving space to that place, you know, on your [00:22:00] own. That's you helping yourself. You're not alone with it right now. Mike's here.
I'm here. And then there's this, you say this hollow part in your chest that makes you wanna run away. What I have to assume is that that hollow part that makes you run, wanna run away might get loud outside of here and prevent you from, you know, being with these feelings that need space. And I don't mean that.
You know, you have to go there in any time, in any place. There's a time and a place to go here. Right. But I don't want that hollow place to get in the way of not only the grief work for you, but your ability to use this place to get some help from Mike, right. Instead of going into the cycles. Right. So with that said, I ha I have to understand a bit more about what [00:23:00] this hollowness is.
Is all about that wants you to get away. What happens if you sit with the hollowness or what happens if you stay in this place
because something is saying get out.
Rachel: It's really painful to just look at all the times in my life that I've been let down.
Julie: Okay. Is that, um, some. Maybe we could call that self-compassion or just so much sadness. It feels overwhelming.
Rachel: Both. Probably both.
Julie: Okay. Is is there, you know, and again, you don't have to know the answers here, that's why we're here is to get more clear about what's going on and have me help you get some words to this place because nobody ever else ever did.
Right. Um. Sometimes what [00:24:00] happens when people start to touch on this is they say, there's so much there. How do I ever get through all of this? What if I, I get stuck here? You know?
Rachel: And that's probably why I don't wanna go there because I'm scared getting stuck there.
Julie: Okay. Alright. Well that makes a lot of sense to me because.
It is better to, to get out of it if, if we're gonna just get stuck there indefinitely, that's no way to live, right? So what you're saying to me is I haven't had, you know, it's, it's, my experience with this pain has either been you, you know, just put it away and try to live a life to that prevent you from having to go there, or you just get stuck in it forever.
There's no real medium there. There's no real happy middle, which is none of it's happy, but you know what I mean. But guess what? You're doing the middle approach [00:25:00] right now. You just did it, which is we went in there, you sat with it, you, you let the tears come, and now we're not so much there anymore. Or you tell me, maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Maybe you are still there. I dunno. It's hard to explain right now. Um,
well, here's what I would like to do. I would like to put you back together right now and help your nervous system get an experience right here and now that we can go there and we can make some space for that place, but we don't have to get stuck there.
We can come back out.
Rachel: How do you go in, take care of it and come back out so you don't have to do it again though?
Julie: Well, you might have to do it again because until it's [00:26:00] healed, it will keep getting triggered. So there's two ways to do it. One is, is that, you know, when it gets triggered, we need to go in there and we need to cry for that little girl that didn't have help with it.
And then we need to help you invite Mike in to help you in this place. And then we need to strengthen the relationship so it doesn't keep getting triggered to begin with. But when it does get triggered, it's not so raw and unhealed that it doesn't feel so powerful and overwhelming.
I wish I could say, you never have to go back there. You never have to deal with this again. But that's what we, what we can do is learn how to deal with it in a way that doesn't feel so big and bad and scary and stuck and permanent. Okay. And that's how we heal it. And you just did some of that. And of course it's new and your body doesn't quite trust that yet.[00:27:00]
But, so what I want you to do right now is just, you know, share some of this with Mike, which is, there is this pit of pain in my body around feeling unheard
and dismissed in life. And when that gets touched, you know, every, everything in me wants to just stay, stay out of there.
Rachel: Now there's a pit of pain and a lot of history where I've not felt heard, super painful to be there, and I just wanna get out of it when it happens.
Julie: Okay. Let me, let me go over here. Mike, are you taking, are you able to take this in and just be here with her in this place?
Mike: I, I [00:28:00] can. It's, it's something
that. I've always kind of had a sense that was there and it, it's never knew how to deal with it, never knew how to, how to show up. But it's something that I've recognized and Rachel, you know, over the years that we've been together and it's, yeah, like I, I can, I can feel the uncomfortableness. I think it's within myself, you know, and just sitting in this place with Rachel, I can start to feel that
Julie: you can start to feel some of her pain.
Is that what you're saying?
Mike: Yeah. I think it's, it's just, it's kind of a heaviness. It's it'ss. Um, Julie: is it, um, a feeling of connection?[00:29:00]
Mike: It is. It's, um, yeah, it's, it's good to know that.
Julie: Do you feel, um, are you, does it help you feel safe to be invited in here? Are you able to, um, 'cause that's what she's doing, right, is she's just inviting you in and letting you see some of this and letting you. Be here with her as she goes through this and she's, um, putting some words to it for you.
And I wanna know that that's basically just inviting you in here instead of going into the cycle moves, which is, we'll talk about what that looks like later. And so I wanna know how your nervous system responds to her invitation.
Mike: It's responding well, but I, I think there's piece me.
For some weird reason that [00:30:00] questions whether or not Rachel wants me to be here in this place with her.
Julie: Okay, I see that. That makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate you putting words to that. So I'm gonna go back over here to you, Rachel. Um. You know, cl clearly something important is coming up for him, and what I think I hear him saying is, look, I, you know, I'm more than happy to come into this place with you, but he's a little worried that maybe you don't want him there.
And so we'll go over there and address that with him in a minute. But just to kind of lean into your experience, um, how is it for you right now to, you know, just have this experience of. Getting really clear about the very first piece of this, um, conversation that you were going to have at dinner is, I've tried this before.
I felt dismissed and heard, and so your nervous system is afraid that's gonna happen again. And so I just [00:31:00] helped us get clear about what is so scary for you about being dismissed and which scary right. Goes. That's a sad, painful place. My body's been there over and over again in life. I don't wanna go back there because when we do go there, there's just this well of grief and well of sadness.
And so we went there and you sat with it and you didn't have to be alone with it. And you did say, Hey, my body wants to pull out of this for a very good reason. And we, we talked about that and then you, we kind of pulled back and put some words to it. And so after all that, I wanna know where your nervous system is right in this moment.
Much calmer. Okay. Okay. So what I wanna show is that you're not stuck there and actually there's some value in what you just did. And that that is healing, [00:32:00] that it's just we need to, you know, just like I said, it's not a one and done kind of thing. Right. Yeah.
Good work there. Okay, so I think what I'm going to do, Mike, is switch over here to you and kind of explore this fear that maybe she doesn't want me there with her. And, um, what sent you that message? Like, what did she do or say that you picked that up and maybe it's not in this moment right here. Maybe it's something that's happened in the past.
Mike: I think it, it, and Julie, I'm gonna say this because it's something I recognize over the weekend and, and Rachel pointed out as well, but I always start my sentences with, I think, and I think that's, it's like I need to start [00:33:00] with I feel. Um, but yeah, so I, I totally have picked up on that. Um, yeah, it's like a nervous cue i think
Uh,
Julie: that, so when you, when you feel nervous, your body goes to, I think
Mike: it's, yeah, it's like, it's, it's feeling the si silence with words, right? Uh, yeah. So,
Julie: yeah. And that's all that just tells us that thinking is your safe place. So, Mike: yeah. Yeah.
For sure.
Julie: Nothing wrong with that. We're just going to balance it out with some other safe places.
Mike: Yeah. I think, you know, again, now it's gonna be conscious, but, you know, in, in conversations with. Rachel, um, and we had, we had one last night and it's this place of when she sometimes will tell me that maybe all this is too much. Maybe all this is over un we're not going to be o to able to overcome some of the, some major [00:34:00] just points may, maybe we're not in the line alignment on or different perspectives.
Like there's, there's this fear. That's communicated that this is all too much and we're never gonna figure this all out. And that kind of sends me to a place of, you know, for, for one, what is it for? Two, why, why is it, why is it too much? And then there's, so what that signals to me is that there's a piece in Rachel that's not been.
I communicated to me, or there's, there's just, there's just, there's something there that, that I'm missing within Rachel that kind of, you know, like what are these big pieces that are unovercomeable in our relationship? And that's what sends me the questioning of, you know. [00:35:00] Is this, can I trust? You know, this where we're going, or simply put, I guess that's what causes me to question.
Julie: Okay. So when you hear her going to this really painful place, right? Does that take you to, oh no, this is so big. Like what if we can't ever overcome this pain that she's been carrying around for so long?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, there's.
Julie: So I appreciate, go ahead.
Mike: Yeah, it it's like a, an instant kind of Yeah. Fear that, that just is, that kind of overtakes me, you know?
There's just, there's a lot there. I mean, it's, there's, there's so many questions and just,
Julie: okay, so you are, what, what you're saying is that, and I don't think this defines you. I think that. Um, you [00:36:00] are able to be with her here, but there, there is also this other part that's kind of scared of this place in her.
What if this place in her is too much for us to handle? What if it, it's so deep that you know, I don't know, maybe a part of you says to yourself, can she ever really be happy? You can correct me if I'm wrong about that. And then there's maybe this other part that says, what if I can never show up for this part in the right way?
Or what if I just keep triggering it over and over?
Mike: That's accurate. It's a, it's a big piece of it. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Which of those feels, uh, the most scary for you? Um, that maybe she'll never heal as an individual or that you won't ever be able to support it in the right way, or you'll just keep triggering it over and over forever until she finally one day just leaves because you can't get it right.
Mike: [00:37:00] Yeah, it, it's probably that. The, the first fear is just knowing that I continuously trigger it one way or another, or it feels like I do, and then just, yeah, just knowing what that, the impact that has on our relationship. And then secondarily is, you know, having, having had the years of these triggers. That we've is, is that, you know, and I'm here, here, again, this is the eternal optimist speaking, but it, it's, it's a question.
It's like, if, if she feels it's over unovercomeable, why? And then there's like, it's a fear at the end of the day. It's a fear of mine as well. Um, because it's, it's, I would be absolutely wrong if. I didn't value, I guess what she's saying [00:38:00] there, because if she's feeling that way for a reason and that's, you know, something that's, that ultimately does, you know, make me fearful as well.
Julie: Okay. So what happens is, is she's, she's doing her work, she's being with her pain. She's putting words to her pain, right? And then something hits in you. Your brain says, oh no, something bad can happen. If this, if this pain is here, something in this pain is, is, feels like a threat. And then we go to, you know, let's just stick with the word fear.
It's scary. You're scared of it. And there's lots of good reasons and lots of ways we get to the fear. But ultimately. If all these things are true, if she can never really get past it, if you keep triggering it, what's the consequence of that? Where does that take you?[00:39:00]
Mike: We stay stuck here.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: And this uncomfortable, painful place time and time again. And ultimately the relationship over time won't be able to handle it.
Julie: So. That's pretty bad. That is pretty bad. Which is the first thing that's going to happen is we're just going to stay stuck indefinitely. And then from there things will have to end because that will be so miserable. And then what will life look like for you if that all happens, if this does end right?
What, describe to me the end. Where are you gonna be in life? Where? What does this look like? Paint me a picture of life without her.
Mike: Yeah, it's a, it's a scary place. Just not knowing. [00:40:00] Um, and I, you know, something that's worth mentioning too is I, you know, I, and up until I met Rachel, I did spend most of my, you know.
Um, it was, I know that, I know that place well. Um,
Julie: mm-hmm. What was that like?
Mike: It's lonely. It's lonely.
It's lonely. And you're, you're always, or I'm, I'm always wanting that, you know, next step to be right and feel right.
Julie: Yeah. You know, just from what I have learned about you, you know, with your family and is like you really thrive on connection. You said my
happiest times are when I'm with the whole family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:41:00] And so what, where you don't thrive is being alone.
And you spent a lot of years being alone. And what were you longing for in that loneliness? The right partner? Yeah. Yeah. Something that the, the family couldn't meet all of those needs. Right? Right. Your friends couldn't meet all of those needs. You needed something more, you longed for something more.
There was, there was a lot of years of that. So your body knows the place of loneliness and the place of unmet longings. Yeah. So when you, you know, and just to piece this all together, you know, that's a sad that there's sadness there.
That doesn't take away from the [00:42:00] happy parts of your life, but the truth is, is that for a long time you were alone and you longed for something deeper. And I'm sure there were plenty of nights when you were alone and felt empty and sad. And what would it be like to go back there after all of this, all of this to end up back there?
Yeah. It's scary. Mm-hmm. So not, not only in that place would you end up alone again, but then you would probably end up regretting that you couldn't make it better, that you couldn't get the job done and
give her what she wanted. Yeah, definitely a sense of, yeah, there would be a sense of failure, for sure. Mm-hmm. So that would be even worse.
And then maybe on top of that fear that this will [00:43:00] happen again. Even if I do find a new relationship. What if I make the same mistakes? And I mean, is that relevant too?
Mike: That
is, yeah.
Julie: So if, if that's where her pain goes. No wonder you get scared when it comes into the room.
Mike: Yep.
Julie: And what happens your to your nervous system there and that fear? How do you know your body is afraid when she's in her pain?
Mike: The tightness in my chest, again, it's just a stress feeling's.
Julie: Okay. And then in, you know, this is the question to kind of bring all of this [00:44:00] together in the cycle. What do you do with that pain? How do you try to regulate all of this fear that you have not had words for
Mike: either avoid it or. Apply logic.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And that logic is like when you get defensive, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll, yeah, get defensive or justify my way outta about anything.
Julie: Okay. So you get defensive, you try to justify and prove to her that you could, you just need to see it differently. Sometimes you might just push it away and, I don't know, try to tell her what she wants to hear. Okay? Try to appease her.
And then she mentioned a minute ago that sometimes maybe you get angry. Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Never, and Rachel can correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I don't get externally angry very often. It's an intern, it's usually a quietness, it's a,
Julie: sure.
Mike: It's just a containment of my own emotions. And I, and I [00:45:00] did that, uh, I guess it was Saturday night when this whole conversation had come up.
I, I just, I, it, it triggered me and I just told Rachel right then and there, Hey, I thank you for telling me this, but we gotta put a pin in this one right now because I, I need some time to process this, and I'm not gonna say.
If we continue talking.
Julie: Okay. Julie, here again. So I just wanna highlight what a victory this is for Mike. You know, in the past, his paralyzing fear of failure would've forced him into just immediately justifying his actions or getting defensive, or just telling Rachel. What she wanted to hear, to put the fire out and, and not even,
you know, his nervous system would do it so fast that he didn't even have time to think.
That just became his way to stay safe. But here he caught himself. He didn't leave her alone. Her emotional pain, you [00:46:00] know that that is an emotional abandonment when we get lost in our own trigger and leave our partners alone in their pain. But he here, he did something new. He recognized that his nervous system was hijacked and he was able to see it, and he was able to intentionally hit the brakes before that negative cycle could take over.
You know, he couldn't fix the problem yet, but he successfully managed his own reactivity. And that kind of damage control is the very first step toward building a secure bond. So we're not losing connection. Alright, well let's hop back in. Okay, beautiful. You didn't, you did something very new there. You said.
I don't wanna go into the cycle. I don't wanna go into that place where I just, I don't know, get defensive or tell you what you wanna hear, but I don't know quite yet what else to do. Mm-hmm. So let's just pause it here. That's great. That's, [00:47:00] that's the damage control part. Right? Right. And then, so in here, kind of the same thing happened when I start having her talk about that dismissed and unheard place that she goes to and how much pain is in there with, for her around that.
And, you know, it's, it's all the same. Rachel not being happy. Right. Right. Both situations, dinner and right here and now, and then we're learning your body. That pain comes in and that signals your nervous system into that tight place. And so we're calling that tight place fear. And it's not just fear that she's gonna be upset.
It's not just fear that she's hurting. It's Where does this go? Well, it goes to. We stay stuck. We don't get out of this. I won't be able to help her in the right way. I'll just keep retriggering it because I don't know what else to do. And then this is gonna end us. And then bam, I'm gonna be back to that [00:48:00] horrible
place of loneliness and not having the connection that I'm longing for.
And on top of that, I'm gonna regret that I didn't get it right to prevent this from happening. And then on top of that, I'm probably gonna be afraid that there's something wrong with me and this will just keep happening in my life.
To see how catastrophized it becomes. Yeah. It gets really big in a, in a literal one 32nd of a second. This all can get activated. Your nervous system doesn't
need to slow down and put the words to it. It just goes there fast. Yeah. And then that's when it tells you, take action. Defend yourself. Put the facts out, justify.
We'll just tell her what she wants to hear to, you know, put the fire out for now and figure it out. The rest out later.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Julie: And
Mike: oftentimes, not even consciously, it's,
it's hard.
Julie: Oh, no, no.
Mike: Yeah,
Julie: no. This happens so [00:49:00] fast. You don't even have time to think. Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Which is why we're here doing this work.
This EFT work is about slowing it down so we do have time to think. We're, I'm giving you the time to think and feel all of it, instead of just the nervous system reaction. When we don't slow it down, we just feel the fast and our body says, just do something, stay safe. Um, and it is, you know, it, it's a survival strategy.
We are driven to connect. When we feel that that connection is ruptured or not possible or whatever it is, or we're in a state of disconnect, our nervous systems are gonna come in quick. But here's what you did differently this time. This is really important, is you didn't, when I had her share with you, right, you didn't go well.
I don't want you to feel that way, or you didn't try to talk her out of it. You didn't try to [00:50:00] justify it. You said to me, I'm trying to think of your exact words. Um, I'm afraid she doesn't want me here. I don't, we need to unpack that. I don't know exactly what, what that all means. There's a lot there. But I do know this.
You talked about your own fear right there.
It's true. And that's and that's new. Yeah.
Because that is going to, you know, I wanna get it of course, to where you don't have to be afraid of her pain. Right? And you can lean into that. And you can open up, because we have success around her pain. It doesn't just lead to failure, but putting words to the fear of getting there is so much progress.
She is going, and I'm gonna check in over here with you, Rachel, but I'm [00:51:00] guessing that it's much more settling to you to hear. I'm afraid that she doesn't want me here than it is to hear him trying to talk you outta it.
Rachel: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I never would've guessed that he felt that way because I, I've always, I thought I've tried to invite him in.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: Um. And I think I said for a long time, unknowingly like, I mean, you know, three, four years ago I was saying, I think you're scared of me. And he would just look at me like a deer in headlights.
Julie: Well, and it, and there it was true.
Rachel: Yeah, it was. And I don't know, he knew he wouldn't admit it or
Julie: he's not scared of all of you, but he is scared of your painful part because he, he's scared of his own painful part.
We haven't known what to do with all of this stuff, and so you're saying, look, I thought I was communicating and inviting him in, but you're probably not sending super clear signals around that because you haven't been [00:52:00] super clear about what that pain is to begin with, or that it even is possible for someone to come help you there.
You know you want it right? Then Mike, you know, you, you one on one hand haven't been getting clear signals, but even if you had been getting clear signals, you wouldn't have really known what to do with them because this work is foreign to you too. So, right. So of course you're going to get scared if you think no matter what happens here, it's gonna end up in a failure, and the failure is gonna take us to loss.
Alright, so I think what we'll do is, um, go ahead and stop there. Alright. So we'll press pause right here for today. What a brave hour of work. We watched Rachel step into a deep hollow well of grief that she spent her whole life running from. And we watched Mike finally put words to the catastrophic fear that drives his logic and [00:53:00] defensiveness.
And there's nothing wrong with logic and defensiveness until we're using it to address an emotional issue. So when he admitted that he gets scared, the entire energy shifted. He wasn't just a cold, dismissive partner, he was a terrified man who desperately didn't want to lose the family he loves. We're not done yet, you know, next week we're going to dive into a specific high stakes trigger, which is a winter storm and a unilateral family decision, and this really life or death fear that it ignited in Rachel.
We're going to explore what happens when an anxious partner's fierce protests finally just burn out, and we're gonna uncover a hidden, painful wound that Mike has been carrying silently about his role as a stepfather. So for this week's homework, I want you to think about the last time your partner brought a complaint to you.
Did your brain immediately fast forward to the worst case scenario, [00:54:00] you know, or did you catastrophize that the relationship was doomed just like Mike did? So this week I want you to notice if your anxiety is writing a tragic ending to a story that is only just beginning. So send us a voice note or an email
to support@thesecurerelationship.com.
And again, your story might be featured in a future episode. And all right, listeners, well thank you for holding space for this work today. Thank you so much to Rachel and Mike for your vulnerability, and we'll pick up right here next week. Until then, take care of yourselves and your relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
