S3 | Session 13: Always Second Place: Fighting to Be Your Partner's Priority
In this episode
Julie Menanno picks back up with Rachel and Mike, an anxious-avoidant couple, after Mike's loyalty to his family leaves Rachel feeling like she's second place, or "last on the list." When Rachel feels unprotected, her instinct is to argue the facts—presenting evidence to prove she should be the priority—but Julie shows how logic can't heal an attachment wound. The session traces Mike's habit of "going with the flow" back to childhood, where he learned to manage his parents' feelings to keep everyone okay. When Rachel drops the evidence and shares the hurt beneath her anger, Mike stays open instead of getting defensive and validates her pain. Rachel then names what her nervous system truly needs: not just kind words, but repeated new experiences going forward to rebuild trust.
Key takeaways
- Logic and evidence don't heal attachment wounds—those wounds are emotional and need an emotional response, not a stronger argument.
- When Rachel brings her anger as vulnerability rather than criticism, Mike stays open and validates her instead of shutting down or justifying.
- Mike's compulsion to "go with the flow" and manage everyone's comfort traces directly back to learning in childhood to protect his parents' feelings.
- Feeling like a priority is a core attachment need; the anger that flares up is really signaling the unmet need to know you're at the top of your partner's list.
- Validating words feel good, but a nervous system only rebuilds trust through repeated new experiences outside the therapy room, not a single breakthrough moment.
Keep going deeper
Hand-picked for this episode: Trust & Wounds
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S3 | Session 13: Always Second Place: Fighting to Be Your Partner's Priority
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm also a licensed clinical professional counselor, and I'm author of the book Secure Love: Create a Relationship that Lasts a Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So we spent a lot of time this season unpacking Rachel's anger, especially how it flares up when she feels like she isn't Mike's priority.
You know, we saw it a few episodes ago when he withheld the truth from her, which was not okay, and today we see it again when his loyalty to his family makes her feel like she's just second-class citizen here. But what's really interesting about this session is that we get a clear look at how Rachel usually tries to handle that pain.
She still can find herself going back into logic. You know, when she feels unprotected, she tries to present the evidence, hoping Mike will just rationally agree with her and, you know, [00:01:00] just kind of realize that it doesn't make sense to make your wife fall behind your family. And even if there's truth to that, just going into that logic place is kinda overriding the emotional dance of the situation, and it doesn't, in and of itself, won't get anywhere.
Logic really doesn't heal attachment wounds. It can be part of the picture. Um, but attachment wounds are emotional, and we have to address those emotions. We have to get a yes answer to the question that couples are always asking each other, "Are you going to be there for me when I really need you?" And when there are attachment wounds lingering, that is not a clear yes in the nervous system.
So today, I ask Rachel to put the evidence away and just talk about the hurt, and it's a really tough pivot for her to make, but when she does, Mike doesn't get defensive. He- his empathy system opens up, and he's able to just listen, partly because he's done his own [00:02:00] work dealing with his own fear in these situations, regulating it so he can be open.
And it really gives both of them some much needed relief here. So let's go into our session. All right, well, how are you guys doing?
Mike: Pretty good. Yeah, I think doing good. It was... Yeah, we had some, a little bit of time to talk last night, and yeah, it was-
Rachel: I'm pretty pumped, Julie. He's jumped into this, and he's all excited and Having good revelations and
Julie: Okay, great
Rachel: even wanting to share. Yeah. And now I'm like, "Wait a minute. Slow down." Um, uh
Julie: Yeah.
Rachel: Like share with
Julie: Wow
Rachel: ... thoughts. And so that just... I got a little nervous, but. . Julie: I'm sure that feels so, so good and relieving.
Rachel: Yeah. Mm.
Yeah, definitely
Julie: Well, let's, let's keep going then. Um, I know we, you know, we're talking... You know, the way I like to do this is just to find something to take us into these deepest [00:03:00] places, and typically, you know, it's going to be the same place regardless of how we get there.
Um, and you know, just to let you know, I was thinking about, I was thinking about this today. I do this process of, of getting down to these deeper feelings with people, like probably every single day. Because if I'm not doing it with a client, I'm helping one of my kids do it and, or myself. And so what I, my
philosophy is, is, is look, anytime you have a trigger, right, there's, there's a little bit of fear.
We don't have triggers without some sc- scary thing attached to these triggers. Um, and at that point, we're either gonna do, you know, one of two things. We're either going to process it and kind of sit with it and not override it and figure out what's going on so we can make a move with it that is healthy, or [00:04:00] we're going to just react to it in a, in a way that probably isn't so healthy if that's the habit, right?
And as you begin to get healthier, y- it doesn't, it just doesn't take as long. It's, it's more of like, "Oh, there's that thing, let me..." You know, you catch it faster and you don't have to spend, you know, as much time trying to kind of go there and feel it and get to know it. It just happens more quickly and, and then I think you start to make better choices in life and you, because of that, it doesn't get triggered as much to begin with, you know.
Um, not that that... There's only so much you can control in life, so sometimes you can't control what's gonna come at you and trigger you. But you can build as, you know, healthy as a life as possible. But so that's kind of what, what this work is about, just to put it into, um, a bigger context. Like why are we sitting here doing this?
And so I, I think I've mentioned to you, you know, my kids are still growing and they're still [00:05:00] learning how to do their feelings and they're in, um, you know, middle school and high school, so they've got a lot coming at them. And so my goal with them is, is just to help them, like not... You know, when these feelings come up, just like, let's, let's figure it out.
Let's figure out what, what the healthiest thing to do here. So that's why we're, we're doing this because, you know, those of us who didn't grow up in homes with parents who knew how to help them with these feelings just... And so it just takes... You know, we kind of have to go back and get the reps and practice of it that we would have gotten in childhood had someone been there holding our hands through it.
So that's what we're doing. Um- And now I wanna kind of continue going with you there.
Rachel: So we talked a little bit last night about how our time with you seems to have gone pretty quickly. And so, like, I think we're just [00:06:00] feeling like it makes sense what you're doing, but without you it's, um, I feel like I'm floundering even last night 'cause we were, we were talking about something and he, he was like, "What do you fear right now?"
And I'm like, "I don't know." You know? So it's like I, I hit that point where it's like, yes, that makes sense. You're asking the right question, but I don't know what's underneath it all.
Julie: Yeah. You just need more reps.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. This is just so foreign and it is, it is... You know, the, the great news is it's a very organized process, and once you get the rhythm of it, it, it just gets easier and easier.
But, um, it does take a lot of reps to get to the point where you can do it outside of here.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So I, I do have more work to do with you, Rachel. I just need to finish up over here with Mike. Um, however, if you would rather have a break, Mike, I can [00:07:00] do some work with you, Rachel, today and
Mike: Yeah, yeah. Either way.
Um
Rachel: Yeah, it doesn't matter.
Mike: Yeah, what- whichever Whichever way you think I'll be best. Mm-hmm
Julie: Well, at this point in the work, when you guys are out of cycles, um, and for the most part, you know, not perfect necessarily, then I, I really do wanna put the bulk of my energy into you, Mike, with this, what we call withdraw or re-engagement, which is just really getting you re-engaged with your emotions.
Mike: Okay.
Julie: Yeah. And Rachel, uh, y- you're, you're saying to me me. Look, I need to do that, too, and so we will. All right, so let's jump in then. So where we were going is we're talking about this, what we're gonna call move in your cycle, Mike, which is your safe move when you start to get the fear and anxiety welling up around disappointing people, which goes to, you know, the scary place, this catastrophized place.
Um, and your move is go with the flow. That's where you've learned, okay, just kinda do what they want me to do, [00:08:00] say what they want me to say, keep everyone okay, and if everyone's okay, then I'm gonna be okay. And again, there's not... That's not a bad thing. It's just that when, when it becomes, you know, um, an actual threat to your authenticity or, or the system fails and doesn't work so well because you have to go with the flow in two opposite areas and
someone's gonna be disappointed no matter what, um, that's when it doesn't work.
So, um, yesterday, where, where we ended was, um, just kinda putting words to how this go with the flow has been keeping you safe.
Rachel: But it's just what you've done.
Mike: Yeah, it's, it's how I've protected myself. I know that was..
Rachel: And, and you asked me, basically were asking me to join in going with the flow to make you feel safe.
Julie: Yes, that's what it was.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. And is that clear? Like, do you understand how this all plays out, kind of mathematically almost?
Mike: I do, yeah. Thinking back and, [00:09:00] yeah, just replaying those, replaying those thoughts, feelings, emotions in those times, it does make sense, yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so what is...
If we just wanna kinda map it out, what is something that will trigger this fear of disappointing people that you care about?
What i- what is something that, you know, in the future you could say, "Oh yeah, that, if that situation happens, you know, that can take me there pretty quickly"?
Mike: It would be... I- it's always gonna be a situation where, you know, maybe Rachel or the family wanna do different things. Um, it's... And it's even as simple as, it's, it's almost like as simple as somebody that's, you know, counting on something from you that you're not gonna, not gonna be able to deliver or, you know- Okay
not gonna be able to do [00:10:00] or... It's, it's, uh, it's a relatively, the most impactful scenarios are always in the immediate family 'cause, just 'cause the, the circle is so small. I mean- Right ... really, really, really it is. I mean, it's... But
there's, what's interesting is there's like, that's the most impactful stuff, but the, the, the same habits also go into kind of extended relationships.
You know, whether it's, you know, s- with somebody I don't really know or it's a professional relationship, whatever that is, it's still, it's still there. Um, it's not, it's not as impactful, like, I don't have those, you know, s- like, feelings within my body, but it's, like, still, it still steers my behavior.
Julie: Sure.
Is it possible that you do have those fears in your body, they just maybe aren't as strong?
Mike: I think so.
Julie: Yeah. 'Cause what happens if you disappoint someone in a, like a work situation?
Mike: Yeah, I d- I, I don't like it. It's, [00:11:00] uh, you know, tough conversations are, it's al- it's always tough to have. I d- I don't, you know, all intents and purposes, I usually will avoid them or try and justify, "Oh, the situation's not that bad."
Um, you know, what- whatever it is and I think a lot of the- .
Julie: So, so what is, um, so you said what, what you do when these feelings come up at, i- in work is similar to what you do at home, which is you justify or you just try to avoid, avoid it, right? So if we just go back, and let's start at the beginning here, 'cause remember, we always are going to start in the body.
That's g- where, what's gonna take us. Um, can you tell me what might come up when you think of having a really hard conversation with someone at work or, you know, you said can't deliver, so not being able to deliver. Mm-hmm. What, what comes up in your body just thinking about that?
Mike: I- it's It's like, I [00:12:00] mean, like one of the, you know, examples without giving, you know, a, a lot of details at all would be like, you know, essentially letting somebody go or firing them, which I've, I've done.
And it's like going into that situation, like, like my palms are sweaty, like my heart's beating. It's like, you know, it is-
Julie: Okay, so right there, hold with me there
Just want you to sit there for a minute and sit with... You know, if, I don't know if your heart is pounding right now, but anything that you feel coming up, just putting some words here. You have to go in and fire someone. Someone who you probably had at least somewhat of a good relationship with, who is depending on you, who has a family to take care of What comes up just as I say those words?
Mike: Yeah, it's just a huge amount of [00:13:00] uncomfortableness and Julie: Mm-hmm
Where is the uncomfortable?
Mike: Just in, in my chest and I don't know if I'm warm right now or not, but my palms are sweaty. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So that, that is your nervous system right now. You, you... The sweat is coming out of your hands, right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: It's, we're not making that up.
Mike: Right.
Julie: The fear is very, very real We can call it anxiety if we want, but anxiety is the same.
It's low-level fear. There's still a fear. And so what is the fear here? What is your body afraid of when you have to do this?
Mike: It's in, in a, in a sense it's like it, it's letting that person [00:14:00] down
Julie: Okay So here we are back at the same place, right? Letting the person down, disappointing.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And there's no way around it. I mean, you are letting someone down when you fire them. There's no escape from that.
Mike: Right.
Julie: It's something we have to do, but the empathy system that you have a lot of doesn't want to hurt someone, and there's...
That's a big piece of this, is we just don't wanna p- see people suffer, and we certainly don't wanna be the reason that they're suffering.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Right? But then we're-- That, that's over here. We don't need to address that. That, that's just gonna happen no matter what. But let's address this part that is about you, right?
What's gonna happen? What are they gonna think of you? Or how's this gonna reflect on you if you let them down? Are you gonna be the bad [00:15:00] guy? Are you gonna be
Mike: yeah, I mean, that's, that's always the, you know, underlying... 'Cause it, ultimately, it's like in that instance, it's like, you know, I'm the one that made the decision and it's, there's no, there's no other, um, fall guy in, in the, in the picture, you know?
It's, it's clear it's been, you know, it's, it's something that has to be done. It was a decision that was made and
Julie: What if you are the bad guy there, the fall guy? What is, what is so bad about that for you? Where does that go? Or is that, or is that just it? You just simply don't wanna be the bad guy. That's, that is the bad thing that can happen.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, it, that's, that's really... There's not a lot of depth in that, especially, you know, this particular instance where there's absolute [00:16:00] and good reason for what's being done. It's like, it, you just feel, you just feel, you feel, you, you, you don't feel... Let me put it this way. It's like you don't feel bad for the person Professionally, you feel bad for them personally, 'cause you know it's gonna impact their family.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you have to feel responsible for hurting their whole family.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Yeah. And I, and I know that there's probably not all of you that takes that on, but there's, there's enough that it's really h- uncomfortable.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Do you trust that people can handle their pain around these things? E even not just in work, but your parents and Rachel.
I mean, do you trust that they can deal with their own feelings of disappointment and
Mike: There's, there's absolutely always a piece of me that thinks they can't, [00:17:00] and that's, that's the fear. You know? Like, that's where you have the, the blow up, the, the yelling. A- a- and, and I don't know, uh, very rarely have I ever been yelled at, I'd say.
But it's like, it's like the fear, right? It's like if some someone's, you know, screaming at you, yelling at you or whatever. But, you know, it's, it, it's, it's an interesting, weird place. And, and even thinking back, I just, I say that, but it's like I, I don't know that... I can't really put my finger on a, you know, a time where I was yelled at or something.
Like, like a, a, a real explosion in a relationship is, it's almost like an imagined fear or a fabricated fear in a sense I don't know how, how much of it would actually ever be real. It's just
Julie: I think if we really distilled this, it's not so much the consequences of... Well, we'll talk more about that. But [00:18:00] it, it- we just, the starting point is that there is a belief for you and a fear for you that people can't really do their own feelings
Mike: Yeah
Julie: Because I know that is there because you really go, you work overtime to protect people from their own feelings.
Mike: It's an interesting way of putting it, but yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And, and so there's consequences to people not being able to do their own feelings, right? There's one, they're going to suffer, and two, those
feelings then might get acted out on you. And both are real. We love people, and we don't want the people that we love to suffer, and we don't want to be on the other side of their bad feelings if they don't know how to, you know, handle them.
Whether i- you know, you're saying, "Look, I don't really have a lot of reason to believe that I've been yelled at," but s- there's still something around that, or I'm, I'm going to get yelled at. But, but we do know [00:19:00] that you don't want those texts that come through that say, "Never mind, we'll be fine," that are, that have that kind of passive-aggressive tone to them, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julie: Because that is a direct result of someone not knowing how to do their own feelings in a healthy way. What's a healthy way to deal... Let's just say your parents, you know, if, if they're disappointed that you can't come and they're kind of confused about why, what's a healthy way for them to, to approach you with that?
You might not know the answer, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'll help walk you through it.
Mike: I, I don't know that I do know the answer. It,
Julie: yeah- Okay. Well, let's just say this. They're dealing with their own fear of you not coming to the event.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Something about that is threatening to them. And so let's just kind of assume that, you know, one of the common things I might see with that is, uh, are we not important anymore?
Do we not have control [00:20:00] here? If we don't have control over what you guys do, then is the world gonna spin out into chaos? You know, it just, these things go really deep, right? So clearly it's about some sort of control for them. And so the healthy thing for them to do is to get clear about their own fears and be able to go, "Hmm, what is so...
I mean, this, what is so triggering about Mike and Rachel not, not wanting to come? Like, why is that causing me so distressed? Let me do some exploration around that, because I don't want to send them the messages that they don't have
free will," you know? And then maybe they come to you and they say, "Hey, listen, you know, we do get, we do get a little anxious when you guys don't want to come, and some of that's our stuff, and can..."
You know, do you see how I'm just like opening up a, a conversation for, you know, really connecting and talking through these things, right?
Mike: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so they don't do that because they really don't know how. Nobody ever taught them how. So what they do is they [00:21:00] act out in these passive-aggressive texts.
That's their way of trying to get your attention.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: It's their way of trying to ask for help when they don't know how to ask for help
Mike: Yeah, it's... Yeah. Okay. No, I- Go ahead.
Julie: Go ahead ...
Mike: yeah, no, that makes, makes complete sense. It's- it'd be like, yeah, just them in a way sharing their attachment need and it not being met.
Julie: Yes.
Mike: Okay.
Julie: Exactly. There's an unmet need for them in that interaction. They don't have words for it. They don't know what to do with it.
Mike: Yeah. Okay. No, that makes, makes a lot of sense.
Julie: Yeah, and all of these things are rooted in just, you know, a lack of clarity around what's really going on and how can we... You know, once we know what's going on, it's, it's much easier to manage it, these feelings, and talk about them. And, you know, if your parents came to both of you and said, "We just get really scared," it would change everything.[00:22:00]
Mike: Yeah. It'd be super vulnerable. Yeah. It'd be
Julie: It would be vulnerable, yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And it would be awkward at first, but then you got... It's so much better than these games
Mike: Right ...
Julie: that people are just trying to work around and... You know, so anyway, the, the point is this, is the assumption in the story I just told is that your parents don't know how to do their painful feelings.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: What's it like to, to recognize that you haven't your whole life been able to trust that they can do their own feelings?
Mike: Yeah. In a sense, it's almost a, a good feeling to, to make sense of it. Yeah, I, I think it just really helps me to understand the, the dynamics so much better
Julie: Yeah. So how, how did you, since, since you have had to see your parents struggle in these certain areas with their emotions and [00:23:00] not know how to help themselves, what have you learned to do to help them?
Mike: Going with the flow. It'd be, yeah, making sure they don't have to have those feelings.
Julie: Exactly.
Mike: It's not even a thing.
Julie: Yeah. Somewhere along the way in life, you know, from a young age before you even had, you had no idea this was happening, you learned that to help mom and dad, to protect them from hurt, you, you just go with the flow.
And a lot of times it works.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Until, until it doesn't.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: And sometimes it's okay to go with the flow. It's not bad. It's just we need to be able to do it with intention when it works for us. And we need to be able to say, "I can't go with the flow this time, and here's why," when it doesn't work for us.
You haven't had that freedom. And when you do do that, when you send those messages, then they get [00:24:00] reactive, and then they, you know, pass the ball back over with the, with the text. What I want you to do is I want you to tell Rachel this right now, which is that, you know, I learned that early on that, uh, I had to, you know, help my, my parents with their feelings by going with the flow.
That's how I protected them from what they weren't able to do on their own.
Mike: Yeah. Early on I had to go with the flow. Let my parents just, um, make sure that those feelings weren't there for them and protect them.
Julie: So how is it to put some words to it?
Mike: It feels good. I mean, it's, there's definite truth there.
I mean, it's just the way it's played out, you know. Lot, a lot of it, you know, probably unintentionally, but it's absolutely the way it has impacted me.
Julie: [00:25:00] Yeah, mostly unintentionally.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Like I said, these things happen so fast, we don't even have time to think. We get in these patterns and they just become such a norm.
And then, you know, Rachel comes along and it start- it, it, it shakes up the system, and it's scary.
Mike: Yeah, the, the flow is, you know, and sometimes it's... Y- when it was just me, it was very rare that the flow would be interrupted, right? It's, it's easy when you have somebody else in the picture, it's like, you know, there's...
It's a, it's a different perspective. It's a new... It's a, yeah, it's the flow. Rachel: Well, and I'm the only one that did.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: How is it for you, Rachel, to hear him put some words to this?
Rachel: It's good that he's able to recognize it and see. It's [00:26:00] really hard to know that he's carried it- Yeah ... for so long. And that's what was hard, is again, it's like I've had these observations and tried to talk about it, but he couldn't see it.
Julie: Sometimes it's really hard to see it when we're in it
Rachel: Yeah ...
Julie: and when there's so much fear around it, and it's our safe, safe way to do things, you know? So is your... Am I hearing that your empathy system is opening?
Rachel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's hard to know and watch it play out to where he hasn't been the, given the freedom to be himself and do what he wants for a majority of his life, because he's been concerned with everybody else and not himself.
Julie: All right. Well, let's, let's just kinda organize this before we go back in. Um, [00:27:00] you know, we started with how this shows up at work, just not even in the family system, and then it occurred to me that you do... Somewhere in that conversation, it occurred to me that, yeah, you don't, you don't have trust that people can handle their pain in a healthy way.
And so you have developed this belief that you are responsible for helping people not hurt.
You know, the way that you've managed that, people manage that feeling of being responsible for others' feelings in, in many different ways. Some people just run away from it altogether and don't go into relationships because they
don't want that pressure. But for you, your, your go-to has been, well, just go with the flow and protect people from hurting.
It's really simple, and you're really good at that. Become really good at that Mike: Yeah
Julie: [00:28:00] And, but sometimes these strategies don't work so well. And when they don't work so well is when they're taking a toll on us as an individual and our own ability to be authentic in the world and, and then when they, we have competing attachments.
What you're used to doing with that is we don't, you know, not putting words to it, not seeing it. W- I'm just creating a new pattern here, which is getting some awareness around it. So when this stuff does get triggered, you, you have access to sorting through it, seeing what's really happening, and doing something new there.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Which is scary. I, I won't lie. I mean, it is scary to do new things with these feelings, but it gets easier with time. But so I just, instead of, you know, the old cycle where we weren't talking about this and you just kept going with the flow, I had you do something new, which is talking to Rachel about it.
And that instead of disconnecting the two of you, it [00:29:00] actually helped you guys feel connected. Yeah. You connected over it instead of disconnecting over it. Yeah
Mike: I really like the way that you've explained that whole dynamic with basically me, you know, feeling like I'm responsible for people's emotions, 'cause that, that really nails it. I mean, it's there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah, you didn't... You know, that's why kids really need to feel safe in the world.
Parents who, what we are called wiser and stronger, because if kids don't perceive their parents as wiser and stronger, then they wanna come in and fill in the gaps and try to, you know, try to protect their parents.
And it, and it's, you know, it's out of love, but it's also out of kids need to have s- safe parents to feel safe themselves.
So for all the parents out there, do you ever find yourself struggling to connect with your child during tough moments? I know [00:30:00] that I used to.
So we offer an intimate four-week parenting group designed to help you break these reactive cycles and respond to tantrums and shutdowns in a way that can really foster connection.
You know, it's actually these moments, these tough moments, that, um, create the most growth opportunity for your child and your relationship with your child and you. So it's not just another generic class. It's a small group with personalized coaching, and you can learn more in the podcast description or at thesecurerelationship.com.
So it's out of love and survival
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So, so my question for you is when, when do you remember this starting? Like, when do you remember a time in life, and you might not, you know. Some people don't have memories of these patterns getting going, but do you have any memories of feeling like, oh, I've gotta, you know...
Dad, I know your dad was very avoidant, but maybe he showed some sign of distress, or [00:31:00] mom, or some feeling that you have to jump in and, and take care
Mike: A huge piece of that was, and I had mentioned it to you, Julie, was, was when my grandpa passed away. That was, you know, I was at a young age, and, you know, it was just a lot going on at that time, and that's probably when it really came in, I would say.
And just, it, it, it probably was a little bit before that, um, but that's probably what really solidified it, I would say
Julie: Okay, there's a, a few questions I have there to get a little more clear there, but let me ask you something that just kinda popped in my mind. If I remember correctly, you didn't really... Y- your grandpa kinda had your back, right? He, you weren't so worried about taking care of him emotionally.
Mike: Yeah, no. There, there was no, there was, there was no, no emotional, uh, uh, maybe, I don't wanna say connection, but [00:32:00] just, uh, m- maybe that is the right word.
Um
Julie: Well, what I mean, what I mean more is like you, you could be a little maybe more authentic with him. Like, you didn't have to worry about hurting his feelings or you didn't have to worry about saying no to him about something. I, I'm fishing around here so you can
Mike: Yeah, no, it, it would've been kind of the opposite.
It was probably, that was probably one of the main figures in my life where it was constant drive for success to make him happy, because it was high expectations. Really, really, really, really high expectations for young kids. Yeah. But there was a weird sense of connection in that because it's, it- when we did it, right, we got praise for it.
It was like, yeah. So it's
Julie: So when it worked it got, it was, it felt really good, but did it come with some anxiety?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. All right. I might wanna go back to [00:33:00] that. Right now I wanna stick, but so we don't get, get off topic here, I wanna stick with when any moment you remember, like, a pressure to keep your parents happy by doing something maybe you didn't wanna do or going with the flow.
We know it, it happens now, but- Somewhere you learned it. Somewhere you learned to do it that you're still doing it now
Mike: I think, it, it, you know, trying to think back through different times, it's
Julie: I wonder if it didn't, it didn't become apparent to you until you met Rachel, 'cause it didn't, it just didn't come up consciously.
That was the first time it had ever really been challenged.
Mike: I think there was a really big piece of that, yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: [00:34:00] Okay. Did you ever feel like you had to stifle yourself or say yes when you meant no, or no when you meant yes?
Mike: Uh, I mean, I know there was times for sure, but it, it really wasn't even really conscious 'cause I knew the expectation, if that makes sense.
It, it's, it's not anything that I would consciously challenge. It's, it's just the expectation, and it kind of goes into what I th- I had said, you know, previously. It's like I th- a lot of this whole concept of unspoken expectations, and I think I actually have higher expectations for myself than anybody else.
And it's, you know, part of what's interesting about this behavior is it, it is also what has, you know, instilled a lot of drive in me to succeed at things.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: [00:35:00] But it's, you know, it's also got these adverse effects or, you know, whatever you wanna call them.
Julie: Some strings attached.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: Do you think it has to do anything with food?
Mike: I think there was a lot of it, like, where I ate my emotions and things like that as a kid.
Julie: So here, here's, here's where we're going to find the answers. You know, what you're telling me right now is that it wasn't safe to bring emotions to them, and either it wasn't safe because, um, they wouldn't know what to do with it, or it wouldn't, wouldn't matter, or you weren't taught how.
But you told me that when you were getting bullied at school and you came and talked to them about those... in your way of talking about those feelings, their response was move you away from the hurt.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Nobody was leaning into that [00:36:00] hurt, and so in that you have to get the message that they can't handle the hurt.
Because if they could handle the hurt, they would be with you in the hurt. It's not with words. This is very unconscious. It's subconscious, whatever the word is. But, um- They weren't, they weren't able to stay with you in the hurt, meaning they couldn't tolerate the hurt with you
Mike: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that's accurate 'cause, 'cause even, you know, from my dad, he had a very similar
Julie: Mm-hmm
Mike: bullied upbringing as well. Okay. And I, yeah, not...
Julie: So is it safe to say that you learned to protect them from your bad feelings?
Mike: Yeah, it's, it's, it's like not wanting to stir those emotions within them.
Julie: Yes. [00:37:00] Okay, so if you're protecting your parents from your bad feelings, you don't have a place to go with your bad feelings 'cause it's just gonna trigger them and make them upset.
You don't wanna do that. So then you're left with nobody to help you with your feelings, 'cause we rely on parents when we're young. That's our people, right? And so what did you have to do? You used food as a coping mechanism.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So you had two coping mechanisms. One is just hold it all in. But if I hold it all in, I've gotta do something with it, so I'm gonna kinda help myself feel better with, you know, distraction, which for you was food and working and success.
Um, none of, you know, it's, it's super obvious that food isn't a bad thing be- ... because we need to eat, but it, it can be used as a coping mechanism. Thing, same thing with work and success. It's a good thing. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just when we're using it as a coping mechanisms and not dealing with our feelings in other [00:38:00] ways that it can become a problem.
Then another way is going with the flow. Just don't rock the boat.
Mike: Yeah. That's the one I probably latched onto the most.
Julie: So I want you to just, you know, just close your eyes right now and just see if you can just imagine being a kid and coming home from school and having had bad experiences. Mm-hmm. Being teased and mistreated and humiliated.
What did you do? Can you imagine just like what are you doing in this image, this story? Are you getting some cookies that your mom made? You mentioned cookies. Are you watching TV? Like, what's going on?
Mike: It's coming home and my mom being a stay-at-home mom, you know, uh, she was always there for, for comfort. Um, always in the kitchen.
You know, wanted to, wanted to learn about our day and, but- [00:39:00] Yeah ... have snacks, you know, whatever. You know, it was just, it was a very, very comfortable place.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: You escape, just being in that environment, and you escape all the hurts, in a sense.
Julie: So how nice is it that you had that safe haven to come home to? I mean, how sad would it be for a child to have to go through that and then not have that environment to go home to? That's heartbreaking.
Mike: It is. It is.
Julie: Yeah. So I just want you maybe right now, just as, as your adult self, to just go into that house and go to your mom and just say, "Thank you so much for providing this warmth for me to come home to."
It was really, really important that she did that for you
Mike: Yeah
Julie: Can you just close your eyes and just go tell her thank you? Just she may have not realized even how [00:40:00] much you needed it, you know?
And just open your eyes and come back to me when you're ready
Mike: Yeah
Julie: How does it feel just to go say thank you, Mom?
Mike: It feels good. It's
Julie: Yeah. She deserves that. What is-- what's coming up for you right now just to, just to do that?
Mike: It's, it's calming to even just think back to those times just because it was... It's, it's hardwired in me. It's, it was my comfortable place. I mean, it was just really what kinda kept, kept it all together, so.
Julie: Yeah. Well, it makes a lot of sense to me that you have this longing to be close to your family
You, that's like you said earlier, it's where your body feels the safest and the [00:41:00] calmest. And the other piece here is that you didn't learn how to do those feelings on your own. You had the co-regulation. It's beautiful, but if we just wanted to add one more little piece to this puzzle, it's gonna help you also be able to do those feelings on your own And I don't mean by, you know, numbing them and, and, uh, those things, you know.
I mean by being able to tap in and go, "Oh," you know What's going on? What's this pain like? And, and inviting someone in and have peop- having people go in and actually just enjoy you, uh, um, sorry, just join you in the pain and get some of that grief out around those hurts. So if you, if you do come home and, you
know, you have this warm, lovely, comforting house to come home to, um, if you would've had space to [00:42:00] more directly talk about your feelings, what would that have sounded like?
What would you have talked about after this bad day of school, at school
Mike: It would've been me sharing what actually happened at school, you know? It would've been me actually sharing what happened, you know, how I was feeling, um, all those things that I tried so hard to avoid talking about.
Julie: And if, if you did do that, if you did sit with your mom and say, "Hey, this happened. My feelings are really hurt.
It's embarrassing. I'm..." And cried, and what do you think the response would've been? Or what was the response? Let's put it that way.
Mike: Yeah, I, I think she always did the best to, to comfort [00:43:00] You know, me, me and my brother, and it, it was always, you know, kinda like we've said, oh, w- what's, what's the quickest way to make this go away?
And, and, you know, it was, it was, it was always two... You know, m- you know, my mom was very protective, um, and she would, you know, she would, you know, say, you know, "Do I need to go down to the school?" Do you know, "Who is this kid?" Yeah. And you know, all that.
Julie: So before we get there to the problem-solving approach and the resilience-building approach, it's nice to just lean into those feelings and be with the grief in it, you know?
A- as if someone died, right? Like, it- it's so obvious when there's a real death and a real loss of a human, and it, it's so obvious that we don't try to talk someone out of hurting
But it's not so obvious when it's [00:44:00] these little things throughout, you know, the day. What you were really needing, what I'm getting to, is you were really needing just first that part about just leaning in and hurting with you.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And since your mom couldn't do that, 'cause she didn't know how, and she just re- went right into talking you out of hurting or what can I do to prevent this from happening again?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: What did you learn about her ability to hold your pain and just be with it with you?
Mike: She couldn't do it
Julie: Yeah. So what did you learn to do with your pain?
Mike: Stuff it and avoid it.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. So, so you, you not only learned that you have to do the same thing with your pain that your mom does with your pain, which is move away from it.
Let's, you know, go and figure out how to just prevent it from [00:45:00] happening, either by thinking different or problem-solving the situation. And then you also had to learn to protect her from hurting with you.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So at some point you just stopped talking about it, right? Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah. You get, you get into that kind of junior high, high school kind of mindset.
You kind of a little bit pull away from your parents, and then y- you sit with it, you know. At least I did. I stuffed it, you know, that was... And then it, and then for me, it just doing what I knew how to do was, it was problem-solving, and that was lose a lot of weight. It was be successful. It was all those things.
Julie: What I've learned from having my own middle school, high school kids is that they don't stop needing support. They actually just give up asking for it [00:46:00] if they stop asking for it.
Mike: Okay.
Julie: They give up. They realize there's no other... What's the point? And they learn other ways to deal with it. Does that make sense?
Mike: It really does, yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So what we're learning is you, you did still need it, and you would've asked, you would've continued to ask for it and talk about your feel- and, and asking isn't so much saying, "I need help." It's just a felt sense of knowing I can go talk about these feelings, and someone will be there to sit with me and walk through them with me and just be there
Mike: Yeah, that's
Julie: You did still need it. I guess what it is is that kids in middle school and as they get into high school, they get more capable of finding other ways to get help. Some kids, you know, lean into achieving, some lean into substances, some lean into just, you know, like you said, problem-solving approaches, figure out how [00:47:00] to lose the weight, you know, because you can now 'cause you're older and can seek out information and
Mike: Mm-hmm
Julie: and, and those are all strengths and resiliences, but they're missing that piece of being with the emotions
Mike: Yeah
Julie: I think the, the word, the, the phrase that's coming into my mind over and over right now is just this global way of learning to do feelings for you has been protecting from instead of leaning in. And you've learned to do it with you, and you've learned to do it with other people. Protect people from hurting
Mike: Yeah.
It's, it's absolutely the constant theme.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And the way that it shows up in this cycle is that how you've learned to keep the peace with your family, to keep your parents okay, and to keep your, y- you know, your comfort zone okay, right? If your parents aren't [00:48:00] okay, you don't have that comfortable home to go to.
Mike: Right.
Julie: No wonder that's such a big threat. It's really hitting me right now. You know, some people can just say, "Well, I can't keep my parents happy, but I'll survive." But when you have this actually, like, wonderful, beautiful, comfort comforting place to go home to, you lose that if your parents aren't okay with you.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: That's hard. Yeah. It's not... I mean, they have a lot to offer, right? They have a lot to offer you. And what happens to you when I say that? They have a lot to offer. It's not easy to walk away from.
Mike: Just clear to me how much I relied on that for so many years. Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: And just that space.
Julie: So you've really, you know, you're protecting a lot here, but one of the things you're protecting is that space, that safe space.
And, and the problem with that is you don't have the safe space in your own body [00:49:00] just yet. That has been your co-regulation in life, is that safe space.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So I want you to share that with Rachel, which is That has been that, that comforting environment that my parents have created their whole lives has been my co-regulation
Mike: You know, that safe space my parents have created for so many years has been my place for co-regulation and just, it, it's given me the ability to deal when I couldn't do it myself.
Julie: So do you see how that shows up in the cycle between the two of you?
Mike: Yeah. I think it ex- explains why the, you know, with me not knowing how to process the emotions, that, that place has been... It's why there's such a strong pull there.
Julie: [00:50:00] Yeah. Yeah. And won't it be nice when you still get to have that as a comfortable place, but you don't have to rely on it to do your feelings for you?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: It, it's like the, you know, the difference between using food as a way to be healthy and enjoy life, as opposed to a way to just use it to escape our feelings, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: It's not one or the other. I mean, I'm sorry. It's not either you have food or you don't have food.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: You don't have your parents as a safe haven and your, that home as a safe haven, that family connection as a safe haven, or you, you know, have to lean into it so heavily that if anything comes along and threatens that, it, it puts your nervous system into a state of fear because you don't...
You've been wired to have that as your safety mechanism, right? But then the problem is, is that interferes with your safety with your wife, and then that [00:51:00] causes you another problem.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Rachel, how's this all hitting you?
Rachel: It's understandable, for sure. .
Julie: What's coming up emotionally?
Rachel: I think I've had a variety of emotions as I've listened to him work through it.
. Just sadness and heaviness for everything he's done to insulate himself and others, and how lonely and hard it must have been to deal with such heavy things, and just, like, stuff that, I mean, there's a lot of energy in, in burying all that stuff. It's scary and hard to admit that I have a lot of anger for how it's impacted us.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
I kind of expected that, yeah.
Rachel: And the control that it's
It's just like a, uh, to me it's felt like a, [00:52:00] a cloud hanging over us the entire marriage. And it's hard as a wife to not be the safe space.
Julie: Right. Right.
Rachel: And, like, not even have a chance to be.
Julie: So this is a, a point where we need to go and, um, help that anger right now. Instead of judging it and, you know, um, trying to push it away, it has something incredibly important to say So Mike, are you okay with me kind of pausing your work and going over here and figuring out how to integrate all of this experience in so it doesn't, this anger doesn't have to show up in cycles in ways that disconnect the two of you?
Mike: Yeah. No, definitely.
Julie: Okay.
All right. [00:53:00] So let me just start here with you, Rachel. Um, how do you feel about this anger that you're carrying right now? Is there some shame around the anger, like you shouldn't be feeling it, this, or shouldn't be making it about me, or something like that?
Rachel: Yeah. That's, that's a theme throughout the relationship, is I've always just felt a lot of shame around it.
Julie: Okay.
Rachel: I do feel a little bit justified in it because I've seen the dynamics, but it was, again, it, I... Like we've talked about before, it's like I get to this point where I just feel crazy because I feel like I'm the only one who sees it differently.
Julie: When we feel justified for our anger, but we don't express it in a healthy way because we also feel like we shouldn't have it, it will come out sideways and big later.
Rachel: That's accurate.
Julie: The justification part will find a voice, but the doubt [00:54:00] prevents us from using that voice in a healthy way. Does that make sense?
Rachel: Yeah. That's accurate. Sure.
Julie: How has this anger been coming out?
In the cycle.
Rachel: I'd say early on it was big and loud protest, for sure.
Julie: So we're gonna have to figure out a way to get this anger into health. You know, heal- I, I don't know if that's healthy assertion or where, where we'll go with it, but we first need to, um, understand where you got this message that anger is necessarily a threat.
It's, it has to be a threat, right?
Rachel: That's a good question. I don't know the answer. I don't know where that comes from.
Julie: Okay. Well, let's, let's do something different then. Let's start smaller here. As you're hearing him talk, what is the thing, the information, the piece of information that comes out of his mouth that you can really say, "Wow, that, that's when, you [00:55:00] know, my, my nervous system kinda went into that angry place?"
Which part of what he was saying was really, you know, really triggering, I guess, for lack of better word?
Rachel: Um, good question 'cause it was earlier on in the, the discussion with him, but I think it was probably around his... Uh, it's kind of hard to explain because he's, he's explaining it as, like, his whole life it's felt like this, and I see it as, like, as an adult doing it.
And so I get angry that today he's still doing all this work to protect his mom from her feelings, and leaves me
Julie: Okay. All right, so then
This is im- really important here. We're gonna start with a trigger, right? He's still protecting his mom. It's not just right here and now that's triggering when you get this message. It's every time it happens outside of [00:56:00] here.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay? And you know what's going on. If you haven't had maybe the most perfect words or sometimes you have, y- y- your body knows that that's what's going on, is he's protecting his mom.
And he actually is. That's not do- something you're making up There's really good reasons for it. He has found i- in, in, at the end of the day, he's protecting his own emotional safety. And, um, in, in that, there is also protection for you in this twisted up way, right? But it doesn't matter because right now we're just dealing with the trigger.
He's protecting his mom, and what is the unmet attachment need there? What do you need to know to feel safe and close to him?
Rachel: That he considers me and will protect me
Julie: First.
Rachel: I mean, [00:57:00] that would be my ideal.
Julie: Yeah. You wanna know that you're the priority here.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: To me, it seems like that, that would be the kind of the natural order of things, that our partner would become the priority. I don't know that there's any partner out there that wouldn't want to be the priority.
And I don't mean, uh, you know, like, every, every single thing I have to do for my partner, and I- I'm just gonna neglect everything else in my life. You know I don't mean that, right?
You want to know he's able to step back and say, "My mom can emotionally handle her own emotions, and it's not my role as a son to emotionally support my mom in the same way as my role as a husband to emotionally support my wife."
Am I getting that? Exactly. Okay. And th- and I'm guessing, Mike, that you actually agree with that. [00:58:00]
Mike: Yeah, I do.
Julie: Yeah. But- It's just your fears can kinda come and get in the way of that, and we haven't had a lot of clarity around what's... Th- this is kind of at the root of it or...
Mike: I haven't even... You know, up until this point, I haven't even had, haven't even had the awareness on why I was doing what I was doing.
Julie: R- right. Right. You, we haven't been able to name it as maybe you've been prioritizing your mom's feelings because y- you didn't even know you were doing that, and y- your needs were conflicting because you're over here going, "Okay, I've gotta go with the flow to protect my mom's feelings so I can feel safe, but Rachel's not helping me do that, so now she's not showing up for my feelings."
And in the process, you know, really kinda no- neither of you are getting your f feelings tended to by each other because of the cycle. Does that make sense?
Mike: Completely. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. 'Cause it's not... It, you know, it, it... Both of you are feeling alone [00:59:00] from each other. Both of you need more help. So I guess if I'm just gonna get this more clear on your end, Mike, this is something that you cognitively agree with other than this, the fears that come in around this all, you know, all this childhood stuff.
But you really do want your wife to feel like the em- your emotional priority here.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's the goal.
Julie: All right. So I just want you just... Well, actually, I'm not going to have you say that. I'm gonna pause that and I'm gonna go back over here, Rachel. So I just wanna, again, you know, just get really clear about this unmet attachment needs in this moment.
In these moments when you get the message he's protecting his mom, as your body goes to unmet attachment need, bam, "I'm not the priority," and then what happens in your body there?
Rachel: Again, it's kind of shifted over [01:00:00] time, but it had been just the super anxious, tight chest, heart racing
Desire to flee from the situation. Um, and now it's, there's a, a bit of a numbness that just shows up, like, "Here I am again."
Julie: Mm-hmm. And if you, if you weren't, yeah, if you weren't numb, what would you have to be feeling if you didn't go numb?
Rachel: The pain of feeling alone and like I'm last on the list again. Julie: Yeah.
And the sadness in that.
And is that what those tears are saying right now?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: So when this, in this cycle, you know, it, now we're, now we're in numb. We used to be more in that visceral feeling of tightness and the anx- anxious place. But [01:01:00] that's when the anger would, would come up, right? And it even came up here and now in this session.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And just to, you know, say again, anybody's gonna be angry when they don't have their needs met from their partner, and they don't feel like, "Hey, I'm, I'm at the top of the list here. I've given you my life. We're, we're walking through this all together. Like, I ha- I have to know I'm at the top of the list to feel safe and close."
Any, anybody's gonna feel angry there, and what is that anger, you know, what's the hope in the anger there? Or let me ask that in a different way. What is the anger urging you to do when you feel it? What does it urge you to do? 'Cause anger says take action
Rachel: Try to get him to see me
Julie: And what are the words, what would those words sound like that you would use to try to just get him to see?
Rachel: Explaining [01:02:00] how, in whatever instance it was, how it was playing out to where his behaviors and choices were making them the priority.
Julie: Okay. So, so describe the problem Show the evidence kind of a thing Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah, 'cause to me it's logical and like
Julie: Yeah ...
Rachel: makes a lot of sense. It's pretty clear.
Julie: Right. That was your way of, of, you know, getting him to see the problem.
Because if you can get him to see the problem and, you know, buy into that logically, then what is he going to do differently?
Rachel: Realize that it doesn't make sense to make your wife fall behind your family.
Julie: Right. All right, Julie, jumping in here. So I wanna point this out because it's such a common trap for anxious partners.
You know, we've seen Rachel protest before, but notice how she does it here. She feels a lot of emotional pain, but instead of [01:03:00] sharing the pain, she shares a logical argument. She thinks if she can just build a strong enough case, Mike will just change his behavior and she'll finally feel safe. And the problem is arguing the facts almost always triggers the avoidant partner's fear of failure.
And when I say arguing the facts, I mean doing that prematurely before we get to a safe place to present those facts. So to actually shift this dynamic, we have to s- pause the facts and start talking about the fear. And often when we talk about the fear and we connect in that way, we don't even have to rely and lean in so heavily to the facts to begin with because those emotional issues are getting resolved, and the facts aren't having to carry all of that weight.
All right, well, let's see how this plays out. And then he'll change, and he'll go, "Oh, okay, you're right." And he will... You know, and listen, sometimes m- that, that approach might work sometimes, but it wasn't working here, right? But the, [01:04:00] the goal was get him to see so he'll change, and then how are you going to feel if he changes?
Safe. Safe. Yes. Safe and close. So how often... So, so what I'm guessing here is that we've done two things with this anger. As it wells up, remember, the trigger
is a message, you're not the priority, then there's pain, and then the pain turns into anger that says, "Do something. Take action." And it sounds to me like you've been doing one of two things with the anger.
Either just kind of trying to stuff it away and numb it out, that's your latest strategy, or protest and try to get him to see and try to put the facts out there. When do you ever say, "It hurts too much to not feel like a priority, and I just can't feel safe and close [01:05:00] if I don't know that I'm the priority here"?
Rachel: I, I have voiced that.
Julie: Okay.
Rachel: Within the past, I don't know, six months maybe.
Mike: Somewhere in, probably.
Julie: And he hasn't been able to really do anything with that because he didn't really know what was going on, right?
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Okay. But right here and now, the anger is, is in the room. It showed up, so we're gonna, we're gonna do that with it right now.
We're gonna turn it into a healthy assertion because I think what would've happened had I not leaned into it may- And I don't know, 'cause I know that you're really 100% in- um, vested in being authentic and sharing with me all the triggers in here. But it could be that you would just kind of put that to the side and say, "Oh, he's doing all this good work.
I shouldn't, I shouldn't bring that in," right?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. But then what would've happened with that anger? What happens when we [01:06:00] turn off this session and go about your life? Where's that anger gonna go?
Rachel: It, it stays there until the next time it gets poked.
Julie: Exactly. So this time we're gonna do something new, and we're gonna say, "Look, this does not take away from anything that you're doing.
There's so much safety in what you're doing right now. But yes, there still is some, you know, th- this, this need to, to let you know that I can't feel safe and close. I'll never feel safe and close if I don't know that I'm the priority to you."
And I haven't known that, and it's been really hard. Can you just share that with him in your words?
Rachel: Definitely doesn't take away from the work you're doing. And at the same time, I am feeling the anger rise up because historically I haven't known that I'm a priority, and it's really [01:07:00] painful, and it's very hard to be open and connected and feel safe when I don't feel like a priority.
Julie: Okay. And how is it to, um, to share that?
Rachel: Scary. Like my heart's racing.
Julie: Okay. So let me go over... Well, okay, let me ask you this. So I, I think probably the scary is, is this safe? Is this okay? How's this gonna land? Is this gonna, you know, cause him to not wanna do any more work or put words to
this? Okay. But then is there a part of you, though, that is... there's some something good coming from just speaking your truth or anything that...
good that might be coming from this?
Rachel: Yeah. All of that just happened in that split second.
Julie: Okay. Okay. So let me go over and, and check this out. Mike, are you able to [01:08:00] hold this or is this feeling triggering for you? Does this make sense to you?
Mike: Yeah, no, I, I, I can honestly say I, I, I think I can hold it. It's...
It, it feels really good to have her not stuff that anger and share it, be vulnerable and open up to me and let... and, and just to let me know where she, where she's at.
Julie: Okay, Julie hopping back in. So this is a really solid step forward for Mike. Usually, when Rachel brings her frustration to him, his nervous system
reads it as alarm bell failure, and that takes over and he shuts down or just tries to justify his way out of it.
Um, that's what he's learned to do. We're trying to unwire that. Um, but because Rachel changed her delivery today, bringing her anger to him as vulnerability rather than a criticism, he doesn't freeze. He holds it, and it's [01:09:00] a great example of how changing our delivery completely changes how our partner receives that message.
And of course, they have their work to do to be responsive to that message. Okay, let's go back in.
Mike: It still... It... I can... I, I don't dismiss, you know, all the emotions that we just talked about, but I also fully can... starting, let's just say, put it this way, starting to see how that's impacted Rachel and just, you know, what, how, how she's processing it is very helpful.
Julie: Okay. Okay, beautiful. So I just want you to say, "I see your anger. It makes sense to me, and I can, I can handle it."
Mike: Yeah. I see your anger. Yeah, I, I see your anger, and it makes complete sense, you know, just how everything's played out, and I can handle it. I want you to be able to bring, bring [01:10:00] that to me and just be open.
Julie: So what does that do, Rachel, to hear him lean into it and validate it?
Rachel: Feels good. And you know, that split second of, "And I wanna be able to trust it."
Julie: You wanna be able to trust that, what? That he's not going to use this against you, or that, that we will get the change that we're needing, or?
Rachel: Yeah, that we'll get the change that we're needing because, I mean, he tells me pretty regularly, like, "I want you to be able to share with me."
Julie: Mm-hmm. So you're, you're saying, look, these words feel nice. The validation feels nice, but like we have been saying, you know, in the, in our past sessions, is that you're, you're needing less right now the words and more the felt sense going forward of being a priority.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: That's what this anger is really needing to, to heal.
Rachel: [01:11:00] Right.
Julie: Okay.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And so I just want you to share that.
Rachel: The words, the words are important. It's the combination of the words and the
Julie: So I want to, I want you to share that with him that it's like, look... Well, you, you were just doing it. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Rachel: No, I mean, it, it feels really good for you to validate and see.
And I think maybe you just see it with a different lens now, and more of an open heart, and that feels really good.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah, I, I definitely do see it differently. I see it, you know, just understanding my own emotions better and...
Julie: Yeah, 'cause you did- you didn't add this part here, Rachel, of, and, you know, my nervous system, it d- to, to really heal this, I've gotta have repeated experiences of something new going forward. I need you to say that, right? So... [01:12:00]
Rachel: Yeah, and for my nervous system to calm down and just have new experiences to give me the felt sense of safety and trust That we're doing it new and different.
Julie: And Mike, um, does that make sense to you?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: It, it does. It
does, yeah.
Julie: Okay.
All right. Well, we'll go ahead and, and, and stop there. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of our hour here. So what I really appreciate about this session is how grounded it is. You know, healing a relationship isn't usually e ever a single magical light bulb moment. Um, it's a process, and it is about putting in the reps, you know, taking a trigger and over and over and over again, processing these triggers and learning how to do them in new ways, [01:13:00] to do these triggers in new ways that invites each other in and helps us be open to each other instead of just going into that, you know, stuck negative cycle.
So when Mike validated Rachel's pain today, it was a g- it was a great moment. But Rachel rightly pointed out that while those words are nice, what her nervous system is needing on top of that is to trust him. She's needing not just these moments in the sessions, but repeated experiences of something new going forward outside of here.
It doesn't work if we're not translating that work or transferring that work outside of sessions. So that's the reality of couples therapy is, is you, you have the breakthroughs in the room, you get the skills, but the actual healing expands when you go home and choose to use this work to respond differently the next day and the next day after that.
And when you fail each other like you inev- inevitably will, you're able to use the work to then catch yourselves and, and make [01:14:00] repairs. So next week, think about how you handle conflict with your partner as your reflection this week. When you feel disconnected, do you build a logical argument to just prove why they're wrong?
Or are you willing to drop the evidence and simply say, "I'm hurting right now, and I need to feel important to you"? So if you found value in today's session, please leave us a five-star rating on Apple or Spotify. And again, I want to thank Mike and Rachel for their bravery, and thank you, our audience, for listening.
So until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
