S3 | Session 14: The Burden of the Poker Face: How Hiding Stress Hurts Your Marriage

May 25

In this episode

Mike just got great news about a major work project, yet he admits to Rachel that he's carrying enormous pressure behind a professional poker face. In this session, Julie Menanno shows how hiding stress is the core of avoidant attachment: as a child, Mike learned that his struggles spiked his parents' anxiety, so he buried his feelings to avoid becoming a burden. Julie helps him name the fear and grief under the pressure and say it out loud, breaking a pattern of emotional isolation. Rachel reassures him that she feels safer carrying some of the weight with him, exposing the self-fulfilling anxious-avoidant cycle that quietly keeps them both awake at night.

Key takeaways

Hiding stress behind a professional poker face doesn't protect your partner—it deprives them of the connection that actually makes them feel safe.
Mike's habit of burying his feelings began in childhood, when showing struggle spiked his parents' anxiety and taught him that his emotions were a burden.
Overworking is often a strategy to discharge unspoken anxious energy, and naming the fear out loud reduces the need to regulate it through more work.
Your partner doesn't need you to be stress-free—they need you to be honest about where you actually are.
Sharing a burden isn't dumping it; healthy relationships involve mutual sacrifice, and letting someone carry weight with you is where connection lives.

S3 | Session 14: The Burden of the Poker Face: How Hiding Stress Hurts Your Marriage
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm author of the book Secure Love: Create a Relationship that Lasts a Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So if you've been following Mike's journey this
season, you know his default setting is to handle his stress completely on his own.
And we saw the damage that caused when he hid things from Rachel earlier on, and today we get a really clear picture of why he isolates himself. He recently got some great news about a big work project, but instead of just celebrating, he admits to Rachel that he's quietly carrying a ton of pressure behind his professional poker face.
So in this session, we trace this habit straight back to his childhood, and we find out that when Mike s- struggled as a kid, his parents' anxiety would spike and they would distance themselves. [00:01:00] So without realizing it, Mike internalized a really heavy lesson. If you show your struggles, you lose your connection, and that's really sad.
And so to keep the peace, he decided his job was to protect his parents from bad days and bad feelings, and he admits that he spent his time not wanting to stir those emotions within them. So as a child who should be able to re- rely on their parents for emotional support and their parents to be the strong ones to help them learn how to do their hard emotions because they can regulate their own, this got shifted with him, where he was a child who had to feel responsible for his parents' emotions at the expense of him learning how to do his own.
So today is about helping Mike unlearn that, and it's a slow process, but he is starting to see that he just doesn't have to carry this heavy stuff by himself anymore. All right. Well, let's listen in and catch up with Mike [00:02:00] and Rachel. Let me just ask, um, how was your, your weekend?
Mike: I think it went pretty good.
Yeah, it was, uh, yeah, it was Saturday we had a, a Christmas party with the extended family, so on my mom's side. Um, so that was... I think that went, it went pretty well. It was, it was actually the first time we had all gotten together in like three years, so it was lots of people I hadn't seen in a long time.
Julie: Oh, that's fun.
Mike: Yeah. It was good. And then
Rachel: After our session, we had a really good talk, though, bef- going into that.
Mike: Yeah. '
Rachel: Cause
Mike: yes ...
Rachel: he did, he did really good, and he let me know how he was feeling going into it, and he had a little bit of anxiousness, and it led to a really good discussion, and it helped me know where he was at, and then I felt like I was better prepared to try and support him.
So that was really nice.
Mike: Yeah, no, for sure
Julie: ... you, um, can we, can we walk through this maybe? Like, um, [00:03:00] uh, what were some of those feelings that he shared with you that allowed you to know how to support him?
Rachel: Uh, he mentioned that he was a little anxious going into it because in a gathering like that, obviously you don't know who's gonna come up to you and say what kind of things or what they've heard.
And, um, we had mentioned, I think, that project to you that, um, we got some good news on lately, and so he was... I think he was a little nervous about maybe people asking about that because at a really high level, yes, it looks like a slam dunk, but we have a lot of work behind the scenes to make it successful in the long run.
And there's a lot
Julie: This is at the beginning.
Rachel: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of pressure. And so that was something that he shared that I really appreciated. He let me know that, you know, yes, it's great that his, his mom talks about how good he's doing, but at the same time it puts the pressure on [00:04:00] him, and that was the first time that he's shared kind of that hard piece
Mike: Mm-hmm
Rachel: of what that does to him. Um, so I, I told him like, "Y- you're doing awesome. I love that you're sharing your heart with me. It's, it's very easy to understand how that duality could sit on your shoulders. You have... I'm getting all this, you know, this good feeling stuff of people think I'm successful, but at, then at the same time they don't see the pressure that it adds."
And then I think I even asked, like, "If you could say what you wanted to say, what, you know, to your mom, what would that sound like?" And he very quickly said what he would wanna say to her and I was just, I was very impressed. I was very impressed and excited for him that he's putting words to it. And so it's like, that kind of tells me that's probably been rolling around inside of him, but he's never said it [00:05:00] out loud.
Julie: It's kinda like, "Yay, I got a book deal." Yay. Yeah.
Mike: What does this mean?
Julie: Yeah.
Yay.
Rachel: Right? Like
Julie: I just signed my life away. Yeah.
Rachel: Amazing, but then an intense amount of pressure.
Julie: Exactly.
Rachel: It, it really helped me because, as you can imagine, living with him the past several years and trying to figure out who he really is, what's really going
on behind the scenes in his mind, he never gives the impression that he's worried or fearful or feeling a lot of pressure from anything.
And so, you know, even with this big project over the past couple of years, he hasn't really talked about that side of things. It's always, he's always given me the impression that he is so solid, he is so confident, he is so sure this is a sure thing. It's made it easy for me to fall in that camp too, when I do have a lot of
fears, and then I keep
Julie: Oh, wow.
Yeah ...
Rachel: [00:06:00] quiet because he seems so confident. So it was really helpful to know that he, he truly does have some reservations and fear around us being able to do this.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So what happens in the past when you didn't put, um, words to those fears? Where did they go? How did they get, you know, acted out or
Rachel: With me or with him?
Julie: Uh, j- I think with him, let's start. Um, I'll assume they came out in the relationship in some way. You know, these things take, take hold in many different parts of life when we're not acknowledging them and being with them and putting words to them and getting help with them.
Mike: So good question. Uh, uh, I would say, yeah, I, I probably just avoided a lot of it and just stuffed it down and, and focused on what's good.
That is something that I am kind [00:07:00] of really good at. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it, it's something that's... Yeah, I can, I can easily shut away the, the bad what-ifs and focus on the positives, and then just take that nervous energy and put it towards work and making sure that it is successful, if that makes sense.
Julie: It does.
It does. And, you know, I know sometimes people get scared that if they get rid of this stuff, they'll lose their edge. Um, does that come up? Like, oh, no, if I
start leaning into these fears, what's gonna happen? Will I lose my motivation or...?
Mike: It's kind of a combination of... And, and I actually mentioned this to Rachel.
It's, it's kind of having like almost in a healthy way, living in a duality of having Rachel that's, you know, really close and really vulnerable with her and, and getting comfortable in, in sharing those true feelings, emotions [00:08:00] so she understands where I'm coming from. But then there's, then there's just the, the, the professional world where y- you gotta live with your poker face on and don't ever...
You know, essentially in the business world, you know, it's gotta be a sure deal, and you have to be... When you're talking to investors and engineers and everybody, you, you gotta, you gotta talk with certainty, right? It's not a, "Oh, I don't know about this." "This could be," you know? So that's where it's like, uh, it's an interesting spot for me to kinda, to live, um, because it's...
Y- you know, and I think that's what's kinda really nice with Rachel, home life, just having those true feelings, true conversations, deep connection. But then I think she can help me, you know, help understand why I'm the way I am professionally. And like I say, you, you, you can't... There can't be a sense of un un- uncertainty.
You know? It's just, it's a weird, it's a weird spot.
Julie: Do you, um, do you think that [00:09:00] maybe, um- Having an outlet for the fear under that poker face that you can't show at work can actually help you maintain the poker face more sustainably
Mike: Yeah, and
Julie: that- ... that you need to do at work, right? You need to do that. It's like
Mike: Right. Right ...
Julie: you know, if you're a firefighter, you can't lean into your fears as you go into this fire. You have to put that away.
Mike: Right. Yeah. And I, I honestly think that will help. It's, and it's gonna help Rachel to understand me better and truly know what's going on within me, regardless of what I'm saying.
And she could... I think she could just show up for me better in a lot of ways. Like, we're on the same page. We're connected. You know, she knows the, the true feelings around the situation. We're, we're, we're on the same wavelength. I don't know how else to say it besides, you know, it's, it's not like... 'Cause yeah, historically, I would, for all intents and purposes, kind of shield those negative [00:10:00] emotions, use a poker face towards Rachel, just knowing that, you know, i- if, if I do let down those walls, that she's probably gonna have a...
It's gonna... It's, it, it could, you know, trigger her, you know? That's, that's always my, my fear, I guess, in that instance.
Julie: All right. Julie here. So let's pause here quickly. This right here is the core, you know, of avoidant attachment. Again, Mike realized early on that his parents didn't really have the capacity to sit with his pain.
This just happens out of conscious awareness. So to keep his home life comfortable and safe, he took on the job of regulating their emotions by burying his own. He learned how to be easy, successful, and just low-maintenance. He doesn't hold things in because he's just cold or randomly secretive. He does it because for his whole life, his emotional safety depended on making sure the people around him were never worried about him, because [00:11:00] that was his way of staying safe with them.
And of course, we need to help him use this information and insight and emotional work around this to start not having to keep doing this. All right, so let's go back in here.
That's what I was going to ask. Did you, you know, um, have you ever shared this with your mom before, that you have these fears around performing with this job or any job?
Mike: Not, not really. It's, it's been... There's, I think there's been some kind of a starting to do that, but historically, no.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Well, what kept you from doing it historically? Because that's what's going to help me understand what's get- been getting in the way of you, you know, reaching to Rachel for support around these feelings.
Mike: It, uh, mm '
Julie: [00:12:00] Cause how you learned, um, you know, what you learned about the safety around sharing these things really stems from your, you know, how, how those were dealt with growing up. Which we already know some about, but I don't know this particular flavor of it where if you went to your mom and you said, "Hey, can we talk?
You know, I'm just, I'm so happy I got this job, and you know, it's amazing, but there is also this part of me that's like, 'Can I live up to this expectation? Can I really pull this off? What if I can't?'" You know, what would that reaction have been like?
Mike: I think she would have... She would understand. I don't know that she would be able to, to sit with me in that.
She would probably say, "You know, you're, you know, you're so smart," or whatever. "You're g- you got this figured out. Don't worry about it."
Julie: Okay. So she'd pump you up.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 100%.
Julie: And, and in a [00:13:00] lot of ways, I think we can agree that that has been useful for you to have a family that pumps you up, right?
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: That's how you learned to deal with your own fears, is pump yourself up. You said earlier, focus on what's good.
Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julie: Just again, you know, if, if we're pumping ourselves up to the degree that we're just, you know, using that pumping up to just stuff these feelings away, you said what happens is, is that those feelings, those, those normal human feelings of, "Can I pull this off?"
would be, you know, turn into this kinda anxious energy that you then would put into work more to regulate the energy, right?
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Okay. And then not only does that leave the fears unhelped and, and just alone with that pain, um, was there any dow- downside to kinda [00:14:00] overworking here? Do you feel like maybe you're working to the point of an imbalance in other part of your lives?
I don't know the answer. I'm just curious. Sometimes that's what happens, is people are trying to regulate their fears with working in a way that kinda creates issues in relationships or other parts of self.
Mike: I would say it's, it's probably very close to that in, in a kind of straddle, straddling the over, you know, what, what's working too much in some, some instances.
Uh, and, and not, you know, basically having the full attention towards family life or Rachel or whatever that... You know, there's what gives takes, right? So if it's, if there's a lot of energy going towards that, the, you know, the, the relationships are struggling
Julie: Okay, so you're saying that's not, you know, that's not so much of a problem, so
Rachel: I think it was probably [00:15:00] a couple of years ago. Mike: Probably.
Rachel: I think you got more awareness around it, but I don't know that just because you had more awareness around it and have shifted a bit, I assume the nervous energy is still there on the inside because it's not, it's not going anywhere.
Julie: Okay. Here's what we're going to do with that nervous energy, um, because you're already now starting to talk about it, which is going to help a lot, right?
Because when you're talking about it, you're getting that out, you're getting support around it, and y- when we don't, when you don't have as much nervous energy, you don't need to work as much to regulate it, right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: You don't need to distract and find things to help you feel successful. So where I wanna go with this is I want to dive more deeply into the actual fear of failure.
Like, what's this fear about? What, [00:16:00] what happens if you, you know, what would it look like to not, um, do this job well? Just in kind of vague, vague terms, you know? Right? 'Cause I know you don't wanna be too specific here, but.
Mike: Letting a lot of people down. I mean, there's a lot of... There's a, there's not only a relational letdown, there's a monetary letdown, and there's a reputational ego letdown.
Julie: Sure. Which is related to the other two categories, right? Which if your reputation goes, what happens?
Mike: Right. It, yeah, it makes, it makes everything else going forward harder. You know? It's, it's harder to, it's harder to get, you know, jobs. It's harder to, you know, have various teams believe in, you know, your company and, you know, the development, whatever it is.
It's, it's a lot of, there's a lot there.
Julie: Yeah. Then you lose money. Then you, [00:17:00] you know, if we catastrophize this, how might Rachel view you if you lost your success? And I understand this is just parts, but, you know, the fear, what does the fear part say about what would she see in me if I failed everything?
Mike: That's an interesting one, uh, uh, 'cause r- 'cause Rachel's always shared with me that she's not, she's not in it for the money. Money's not everything to her. So that's like, you know, we ha- we do have... I'm not saying that's my, you know, end-all be-all either, but it is, it's a big driver, right? I wanna, I wanna set the family up for success.
Julie: Sure. Well, let- let's move it. Maybe, maybe we can just move it out of money and into how would, how would you feel about yourself if you looked back on this situation and you had all this opportunity and you dropped it
Mike: It'd be a lot of, I think a lot of regret and [00:18:00] A sense of shame
Julie: Um, yeah, I'm, I'm guessing that it would, um, really have some level of impact on your sense of worthiness as a person, as a worker, as a man, as a husband, as a father.
Mike: Yeah, it's... It definitely would. I'd say it would.
Julie: What comes up as I put some words to that here?
Mike: It's, it's interesting, you know, because my, my mind also in those instances as a, as a defense mechanism wants to go to a justification place, and that it's-- that's a place of, "Hey, if this doesn't work, it was a high-risk development. It's all right-"
Julie: Mm-hmm "...
Mike: for it to be."
Julie: Yeah. That's the pump yourself up place.
That's...
Mike: Yeah. That's, that's like... what just came into my mind, you know, 'cause that's like
Julie: What if you couldn't do that? What would you have to feel? Mike: I, I mean, there's a lot of discomfort there. Um
Julie: Where does it [00:19:00] sit in your body?
Mike: Right now it's kinda my head, interestingly.
Julie: Okay. All right, so let's just hold there.
Do you feel any, any, um, fear, any sadness here, any... I wanna understand if we can maybe put some words to what your body is experiencing. Some feeling words If you couldn't pump yourself up, if you just had to sit with The failure
Mike: Yeah, it's-- I'd say it's fear, fear, sadness, just
Yeah, it's an uncomfortable place. It's-- I'm not sure how to-- else to put words to it
Julie: Okay. No, I think you did. It's just fear and, and sadness, loss, grief Your body knows that would be really hard and painful to go there[00:20:00]
Do you try to keep yourself from, from going there by working hard to avoid it? And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that sometimes we can't avoid it, right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: So there's no talking ourselves out of the reality that bad things could happen.
Mike: You can try, but they're probably still there. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah, 'cause we, we know at the end of the day that life is unpredictable. Mike: Right. Yeah.
Julie: I think there's value in, in just sharing these things, and I, and I think that you did that over the weekend, so this is not necessarily something that you're not able to do. You're really getting good at it. But just to get a little more practice, I, I just want you to share with Rachel right now, like, yeah, there's...
You know, that, that would be really devastating for me. There would be a lot of, um, a lot of sadness and a lot of, um, regret if I [00:21:00] didn't get this right
Mike: Yeah, it'd be really hard and just detrimental to me and just kinda devastating in a lot of ways if I don't get this right and I don't pull this off.
It's just a lotta, lotta pressure. Yeah.
Julie: So how is it to, to put words to it and sh- and let her in?
Mike: It feels good. It's... I wanna say too, Julie, it's like going through these exercises and telling these things to Rachel, like that feeling of relief is, it feels really good, and that's what kind of keeps drawing me back to, to do it.
Just know that it's so well-received and it's, it's a, it's a connecting thing, and that's, it's something that is just, it's really powerful. It's
Julie: You're so lucky to have [00:22:00] such a supportive woman over here. Mike: Fully agreed. Yeah.
Julie: I mean, it's pretty amazing. The, th- when you say there's so much relief there, help me understand what that relief is in your body.
Like, is it a relaxation, a, a lowering of tension? Like, just Help me understand the physical sensation around relief.
Mike: It's just, it's like, um... Yeah, it's a relief of just pressure and the, and the, and the tension and just kind of knowing. It's like letting Rachel in is just, it's, it's like I'm no longer carrying that by myself.
I'm no longer carrying that tension that nobody knows about. And that sharing that and having, you know, Rachel know that that's what's going on with inside me is, it's like not carrying the weight alone. Not that I want to shift it to Rachel by [00:23:00] any means, but it's it's also helpful sharing so we're, you know, we're connected and she understands truly where I'm at.
Julie: And I think what you're learning is that she actually feels more safe when she can carry some of this with you.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: That's, that's where the connection is.
Mike: That's what I've tried so long to prevent, was to just protect her from it all in an unrealistic way.
Julie: And a quick note for the men listening who are looking for a dedicated space to connect and grow, we have a men's support group with the guidance of our wonderful therapist, Josh, which is designed just for that, for men.
It's a supportive online community where men can explore emotional availability and the tools for building healthier, more fulfilling relationships. So to join this community, check out the links in the podcast description or visit [00:24:00] thesecurerelationship.com.
Yeah, because you had to learn to protect... W- when you, when you would come to your parents and with, with pain, and their reaction was to move away from that and deal with kind of their own anxiety around it by getting you to feel better, which is empathy also, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: You had to learn, don't burden them.
Not only is it gonna put pressure on them, but it's also not gonna really leave me feeling anywhere, any relief. And then on top of that, maybe even bad about yourself for creating a burden.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Tell me about that. You don't want her carrying it all, taking it all on, right? What would that be like for her, do you think, if she had to just carry it all and take it all on?
Mike: Just a ton of worry and [00:25:00] discomfort, sleepless nights, just, you know, and, you know, I, and I know Rachel. I mean, that's, that's, that's the things that I... That's what I, I don't want. It's the things that I know will impact her, but I don't want that to happen. And, you know, that's... It's a, it's a
Rachel: I'm smirking because
Mike: it's a delicate
balance ...
Rachel: he doesn't tell me, and I still have discomfort, stress, sleepless nights
Julie: Yeah, that's, that's what these cycles do, is they s- uh, they're s- they become self-fulfilling prophecies. You're over here going, "Well, according to my, you know, relational template, we just move feelings away. We don't acknowledge them.
We don't go there because they're too much, and we don't burden other people with them because they're too much." Um, but then Rachel's relational template is saying, "I need [00:26:00] connection to feel safe I need to know I can reach you and you can reach me, and I'll be invited in to feel safe. And so when she doesn't feel safe, that, that's what causes her to stay up at night.
And of course, there's this other extreme which would be putting it all on her, you know. That, that could happen sometimes with people, is they do kind of just constantly bring their anxiety to another person in, um, a way that does actually put pressure on that person. That's the o- opposite extreme, right?
I need you to fix this. I need you to fix this. And in a way that they can't possibly fix. Um, but that's not a risk... That's, that's not even close to being a risk for you, Mike, right?
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: That's, like, the worst thing that you could think of doing is that to someone Expecting someone [00:27:00] else to, to fix things for you.
'Cause what kind of people do that? What kind of people just dump their stuff all over others? Mm, I don't mean intentionally, or I'm just trying to, you know, paint, paint a dramatic picture here of that person out there that, you know, just dumps everything on another person.
Mike: Yeah, I think it, it's ones that just, I don't, I don't know how else to say it, just can't deal themselves.
I mean, they're, they're incapable of whatever for some reason, whether it's intellectually, emotionally, physically. Um, there's a reason for it. And yeah, like you say, not, not to, to bash that person 'cause... But yeah, that's, that's definitely what I don't wanna be.
Julie: No, exactly. Is that like just weakness? At the [00:28:00] end of the day, could we just say they're, they're just, it's just a weakness?
Like they're too weak to figure it out on their own, so they have to get it from others, get too much from others?
Mike: Yeah. It's, it's... Yeah, for some reason or another, there's an inability there, and that's... Yeah, it's... I-- Weakness to me is a strong word. Um
Julie: Okay
Mike: But at, at the end of the day, yeah, it's, it's, it's likely a good descriptor of Julie: Is it more like a incompetent?
Mike: That's... D- depending on what capacity we're talking about, that's, you know... Yeah, I think it's just not... And there could just be an outright un- yeah, un- incompetence or unknowingness or just
Julie: Yeah ...
Mike: somebody that doesn't know how to do it.
Julie: Okay. And that could be, you know, if you, if you did, [00:29:00] you know, let's say fail this job, right?
And I understand there's a part of you that would make sense of it as, you know, what it, what you said earlier, I can't remember what it was, um That you, you said it was a justification, like it, it was too big of a job or it wasn't really possible, something along those lines.
Mike: Right.
Julie: So there is a part of you that could walk away from that, you know, really see- making sense of it in that way.
But we all also kinda have a tendency to make sense of these things that don't go so well as, "Well, my bad." And what would your bad be? That voice, what would that voice say about what you did wrong to get it to, to cause it to not work out?
Mike: There's a lot of layers there. Um, there's, there's lots of... I'm trying to think of how to, like, summarize it in a consent, in a, in a kind of a [00:30:00] condensed way.
Uh, it's like not, it's uh, I'm trying to stay out of the ... You know, there's, there's lots, there's lot
Julie: What are you trying
what are you trying to stay out of?
Mike: Uh, getting too, like, into the intellectual thoughts about it. Um, Julie: there's just-
Notice that pull though. That pull is so strong,
yeah.
Mike: Right. Right. Yeah, it's... There's just, there's just so many points of risk, right, in these big projects and it's, you know, whether it's timing, whether it's money, whether it's resources, whether it's, you know
Julie: So the bigger part of you can look at it, can say, "Hey, if it doesn't work, it, it...
I, I can understand there's so many moving parts that it could, it could not work for anyone. The most competent person out there could [00:31:00] have this go, go south, right?"
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: But I just want to talk to that part, and it might not be here, but if it is here, we need to talk about it. That part that might say, "How come I didn't get it right when someone else could have?"
Is there a... Is that part there that believes that
If you mess up, there, there is a possibility that someone else could have done it right
Mike: There, that's, yeah, it's always a possibility. I mean
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: whether, yeah, whether they have, you know, the, you know, more resources or more money or more experience or, you know, it, it's... Yeah, that's, that's always, that's always a, a possibility
Julie: Okay
Mike: for sure.
Julie: Okay. So it doesn't, it doesn't sound like this is, i- if this, if this fails, which I highly doubt it [00:32:00] will, but it doesn't sound like you're gonna beat yourself up too much over it. It- you'll be very disappointed.
Mike: Right.
Julie: But you're not gonna walk away saying, "Well, it failed because maybe I'm incompetent," or, "I'm not as good as the other guys out there," or whatever.
Mike: Yeah. I, I think there's, there would be, yeah, a lot of disappointment and, and it's like... And the, the one, the one thing too is, and just to let you know, Julie, it's kinda like one thing about this, the business we're in, is when you get a development to a certain point, it's always a marketable thing to sell.
It's like, so it's like you, that's always like, there's always like an off-ramp. If you, if you truly have a good project or good development, there's always an off-ramp.
Julie: I see. Okay.
Mike: So you, you wanna take it as far as you can to get the max value out of it, but it, it's, it's like that's one, one of the things that I, I rationalize with myself is take it as far as we can [00:33:00] until we can't.
And that's, that's just what it is. It's not like, in, in a sense it's not like a, it's an absolute success or failure. There's like a middle, middle gray area that's kind of, that I, yeah, I use for comfort. I mean.
Julie: Okay. No, I mean, I, I, that makes sense and I think, you know, so what I'm hearing is that there's, there's not gonna be like a ton of shame around this if it doesn't go well.
You know, the, the real hard part in it would be, um, maybe the, the financial loss or the reputational letdown Letting people down. You, you mentioned that earlier. So where, where did, I guess, those things come into play here?
Mike: It's, yeah, the, the, the relationships are really big, and I've- that's something I've talked to [00:34:00] Rachel about too, is it's, it's like, you know, there's like this almost, you know, perceived sense of kinda like all eyes on you, you know, or all eyes on me.
And there's just a lot of... There's just, in this, you know, this particular instance, there's-
Julie: What might those eyes see? What might those eyes see if you don't get this right? All the eyes are on you. What are you afraid those eyes will see? You would want those eyes to see you as competent and strong and successful
Mike: Yeah, it would, it would be the opposite.
So it would be
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: you know, there we're, whether we're incompetent or we, um, you know, don't know what we're doing or, um, we don't have the resources or...
Julie: Okay. And so you don't wanna be viewed that way. Nobody wants to be viewed that way, [00:35:00] right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: I'm not sure that there's a part of you that believes that's true, though. Mike: The... whi- which part?
Julie: I'm not sure that there's a part of you that actually believes maybe we don't know what we're doing or incompetent. You just don't wanna be viewed in that way.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: Okay. So here's where I would... Um, what I'm trying to do is, is figure out where, you know, where some of your shame lies so we can he- get some help for it.
So what has kept you in the past from... Thi- this is just a fear. This is just a normal fear. You... Nobody wants to be viewed as incompetent Whether they believe that they are or not, that there's, you know, as humans, we are wired to want to be viewed as competent by our other, you know, fellow humans, right?
Especially those that we rely on for needs, like emotional support or people in your career that you need for them to view you in a positive [00:36:00] light. But where I wanna do the work then is, we know one of the things that's kept you from talking about these fears to get, you know, some of that energy
discharged around them, with Rachel has been not really m- having the words for them to begin with.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: But what about that part that has said, "Well, I shouldn't share these things with her"? And w- we're talk- we're going back to the burden thing. I don't wanna burden her.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: What would it, what would... How would you view yourself if you did, you know, burden her? Um, that we know now, we're learning that this isn't actually a burden for her.
But what would you think about yourself if, let's say, so- at somewhere in life you did actually burden her?
Mike: Uh, I mean, it's a terrible feeling, right? Uh, it's, it's, it's like not being... It's like the opposite of being a supportive [00:37:00] husband is being a husband that's a burden, right? It's, yeah, it's not, it's nowhere near where I wanna be.
It's, it's, yeah.
Julie: Yeah, and, and I mean, again, we, we come to this place where, you know, it, sometimes we are a burden.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: You know, it, it's easy to say, well, sharing your feelings isn't a burden. But I don't want to ignore the fact that part of being in relationships is that sometimes we do burden each other, right?
How do you feel about that?
Mike: It's a really good point, 'cause yeah, it's-- that's something that's very true is, you know, it's, it's, yeah, relationships are, you know, very much a, you know, for simplistic, it's like simplicity is like a two-way street, right? It's not-- You can't give everything and not, you know, not get anything back.
So it's It, yeah, it's... I've never [00:38:00] thought about it that way though, in terms of just sometimes I am a burden, which is, you know, which is an interesting, um, interesting but true way of putting it.
Julie: Is that, is that hard-- I- is there a part of you that that's kind of a hard pill to swallow? Like, wow, being in a relationship does, you know, require me on some level to burden someone else Oh, but at the end of the day, it's all for a good cause.
It's, it's connection, right? But connection involves sacrifice. Mike: Right. Yeah. No, that is- So
Julie: you're putting her in a position to sacrifice something. Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: What does she have to sacrifice to be with you?
Mike: A lot.
Julie: Like what?
Mike: Basically, I had to uproot, you know, her life and family to come and be, you know, with me and, and the life that we're building together.[00:39:00]
And that's... Yeah, that's, um, it's a burden.
Julie: Do you see your family dynamic as a burden to her? And I know this doesn't define the situation, but is there a part of you that sees your family
Mike: It's... Yeah, it's, it's in a, in a sense, yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm. In what sense?
Mike: Uh, I mean, at the end of the day it's, it's, it's multiple relationships and, that require something, you know, from, from Rachel, from me to maintain.
And it's, it is, it is a, you know, we can call it a burden to meet those needs and to, to, to try and meet those needs. Let's put it that way.
Julie: Yeah. And, and when I say burden, I don't, I don't necessarily mean, [00:40:00] you know, this big, bad global thing. I just mean it does require some sacrifice, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: It requires some times when maybe she would rather just do things with the, you know, your, your little group that you guys have going, um, instead of being with the big extended family.
But she just, you know, d- does that anyway out of love or y- you know. Mike: Yeah.
Julie: But we're just... You know, so we're talking about the part of you right now, we're talking to the part of you right now that maybe, I don't know, fears that that might be too much to ask from her. Or, because here, here's the thing, like, you get all the good out of it, right?
You, you get all the good out of the family support because this, you know, this is your, your comfort zone and this is, um- You know, it's been with you your, your whole life. It's a, it's enormous source of comfort, right? But then she gets some of the good, but she also gets the stuff that she has to sort of learn to deal with, right?
Mike: [00:41:00] Yeah.
Julie: And so w- what is it like for you to kinda have to, have to ask that of her? Or, you know, do you worry, like, that's too much of an ask? Or I don't, I don't know. I'm just trying to find
Mike: Yeah, it's, it's hard. Yeah. If, if it's, you know, if it's something that I know Rachel may not entirely agree with, or she would rather do something else, or whatever it is, it's, it's very hard 'cause yeah, that's, it's, it's a burden to her to ask her to go against that grain and Try and, you know, flex or, you know, just be y- do, just, you know, do what it takes to es- you know, essentially what, what, you know, when some- whether it's being with the family or, or, or doing an activity or whatever it is
Julie: Okay.
So it could, it could be anything that causes her to kinda not do what she really wants to do, right? Make a [00:42:00] sacrifice. Yeah.
Mike: Right.
Julie: Okay. And, and how are you feeling just kinda putting words to, to this? That, yeah, there is some- something here. There is some discomfort around, you know, having to be in a relationship where we have to accept that sometimes we need our partner or want our partner to do something maybe they don't wanna do right then and there.
Mike: It's true. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth in it, and it, it's, for me it's, it's an uncomfortable thing to ask, and
Julie: So, so yeah, I wanna know, you know, what, what might happen? Like, what does the fear say might happen if you ask her to do something that she doesn't wanna do? Not, not globally, but just in the moment, right?
Like
Mike: I don't, I don't know that, you know, trigger's the right word, but it would... It could put us on tilt. You know, it could take a good afternoon and turn it upside down.
Julie: And so do, do you [00:43:00] fear, like, maybe she would resent you or be upset with you or?
Mike: Depending on what it is, yeah, it could be... Yeah, she could resent the situation or feel like she's not being heard or seen.
And I think that's kinda what it circles back to.
Julie: Okay. So there is this, this fear that you carry, just kind of speaking about this whole idea of, you know, by ha- by inviting her into your life, you have asked her to take on things that, you know, maybe she doesn't wanna take on all the time.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: It doesn't end there.
It goes to, and if she does have to take on these things, in a moment, like she we're doing something she doesn't wanna do, does that always kinda give you this sense of angst? Like, if you know she doesn't really wanna do something or...
Mike: It... Yeah, it does.
Julie: And I don't, I don't think that's necessarily abnormal.
I, I think what it is, is if we're not talking about it then, and [00:44:00] checking it out with each other, right? And looking for some reassurance, which is, "Hey, I know you don't really wanna be doing this, but can I just get some reassurance that you're not mad at me around this? Like, you can have your disappointment
and, and not be mad at me at the same time," kind of a thing. Mike: Yeah.
Julie: I think- You guys, you guys haven't known how to do that and, you know, there's work to do on both sides of the equation here. But, so, so if you haven't known how to do that, how have you been managing this fear?
Mike: Historically, just kind of, you know, uh, avoiding it, I guess you might say. Just kind of like throwing it out there and then being like, you know, "I know that's not gonna be what she wants to hear," causing some sort of a trigger and then just kind of almost running away from it, which is not healthy.
But it's, it's kind of been... Or trying to justify it and explain it.
Julie: [00:45:00] Okay. All right. So you, you've been trying to just kind of avoid that place and not either justify it and try to get her to be happy about it. Like, "Here, here are the reasons why you should just be okay with this
Rachel: I think you get, you don't show it, but I think you get angry at me for not just falling in line and being okay with it.
Mike: Yeah, there's, there's absolutely some resentment that'll, that'll build. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. It's like, well, why can't... If you would just be happy with it, then I wouldn't have to worry about you being mad at me.
Mike: Right. Right.
Julie: So I just want you right now just to say, "Yeah, there are, you know, there, there is some, some fear in me about moments when maybe, you know, I ask you to do something you don't necessarily wanna do right then and there," or there is, there are some fears that I carry around, you know, the part of the relationship that could be kind of [00:46:00] burdensome sometimes.
Mike: Yeah. There's just, there's oftentimes, like, a just an uncomfortableness and a discomfort and almost like an anxious feeling that I get when I'm asking you to do things that I know that, you know, you may not wanna do right then and there or just be, you know, not really what you wanna do. It's something I struggle with.
Julie: You know, and I wanna just add one thing to that, which is, you know, sometimes I have that, those feelings just around, you know, bring, bringing you here into my life to begin with
Mike: Yeah. Sometimes it's hard just knowing everything that you have given up to come out here and just something I carry and Makes it hard, so...
Julie: All right. So Rachel, I'm [00:47:00] just gonna ask you a, a little question here. Does this make sense to you?
Rachel: Absolutely.
Julie: Okay. So that's all I want you to say right now is, "This makes so much sense to me. Thank you for sharing this."
Rachel: Yeah. Makes so much sense to me, and I appreciate you sharing it with me.
Julie: Okay. And the reason that I wanna just keep that small is because I wanna go back in and I wanna try to understand, Mike, what this fear is needing to get help.
Because I don't want you to have to walk around with this fear all the time and, and have to deal... I mean, the fear is, is gonna come up, right? That's what kinda life does to us is that we get triggers now and then. But I don't want you to have to, with that fear, just try to either resent her that she's not feeling better about the situation so you don't have to hurt, or try to get her to see it differently, or try to just kinda pretend it's not there.
I don't want you to have to do that anymore So what is it that just right here and now, you know, [00:48:00] she might be able to say to you to help you with this fear? What do you need to know from her?
Mike: I think it's her sharing her heart with me, whether she, you know, truly is uncomfortable with the situation or if it's truly something that she doesn't wanna do, or just letting me know, you know, or and, and I think you said it actually a little bit ago, but just even letting me know that, hey, it's not her first choice, but she's happy and willing to do it, um, you know, whatever it is.
Or the opposite of it's like, "Hey, this is, this is really something I don't wanna do," like sharing that too
Julie: Well, let's start, let's start with the first thing that you said. It sounds like maybe you just need some reassurance right here and now that, [00:49:00] you know, she, she's still gonna love you even if, if sometimes you ask her to do things your way.
Mike: I- yeah. And historically, like when I, when I do bring those things up, it's usually met with silence. Um
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: and I think Rachel takes a little bit of time to process things sometimes. You know, it, it, it's... Yeah
Julie: What is that silence like for you? What is the silence like? Where do... What does your brain do to fill in the gaps there?
Mike: It's super hard. It's, it sends me into that negative spiral of, you know, this, this triggered her. She's not gonna be happy with this. Um, you know, it's all those things. It's kind- it, it goes to the kinda worst case scenario of this is gonna send us on tilt, and we're gonna go into a cycle.
Julie: What would be the, you know, the opposite of that silence in the moment?
What would that sound like?
Mike: Like, [00:50:00] "Hey, thank you for, you know, sharing what's, you know, what's going on and what you would like to do." Um, and then share, her sharing her, her heart about it, you know, whether it's something that's, you
know. E- even, even, I think just, I, I think one of the things I know about myself is in those times of discomfort, the silence is super hard for me 'cause it, it makes me go immediately into my mind.
That's where I'm trying to learn too, that's like, let's sit with that for a minute and stay in the emotions, not escape to my mind. But historically, I always go immediately to my mind and go to the worst place. That's where that, that silence is just, yeah, it's
Julie: So I think this is a, is where things have gotten tricky, is that the silence i is triggering for you because your brain starts to fill in the blanks.
But it's also triggering for you if she were to say, "No, this isn't really what I wanna [00:51:00] do."
Mike: It's... Yeah.
Julie: So we gotta figure out how we can get you at peace with, "No, this isn't really what I wanna do right now." What is threatening about that message? 'Cause that's, that could be the authentic, you know, the, the authentic answer in a moment, right?
Mike: Right. It's a good question. 'Cause yeah, it, it will definitely trigger me, I guess, you know? It's, especially if it's something that I... I- if it's something I'm on the fence about, it won't be as triggering, but if it's truly something that I would like to do, then yeah, it's, it's... And I think some of the, you know, one of the things I've said in the past is, "Can, you know, can we collaborate on this?"
You know, just try and feel around to see if there's some way to bridge the gap.
Julie: Yeah. And so what i, I'm really kinda talking about the, the moments here when there isn't a collaboration, right? When that, there's not room for [00:52:00] that, when we're gonna have to do it one way or the other way. And here's where I, I don't want you to have to just kinda, you know, either give up on your way or just do it anyway and hope it all works out.
But, but also care- like, do it your way, but, but at, the cost of your way is that you have these, like, lingering fears of her resenting you. And so what it is is that you're needing some sort of reassurance in these moments when you guys do it your way
Mike: Yeah ...
Julie: and she's disappointed. I, I do wanna see you guys getting to the point where you can be more collaborative with each other and meet each other more, and I think that that's the ultimate goal, right?
Because, and that's what this work does is, is we get this emotional connection going, and these things do start to become so much smoother and easier, as you noticed this weekend with your family event, right? [00:53:00] But to get there to that emotional safety, we do have to figure out a way to navigate times when it is, it, someone is disappointed.
Because the alternative is then we carry around this fear, and that fear is going to get acted out. It's gonna turn into anger, or it's gonna turn into kinda shutting down, and things aren't... It, it, there's going to be, you know, negativity in the air that we're not putting words to, or it takes you guys off-tilt.
Wouldn't it be nice if it didn't have to take you off-tilt?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Right? Right. And so again, you know, where, where I would like to go is, is somewhere along the line in your life, you picked up the message that, you know, it, it's not so safe for someone else to be disappointed. There's some in, there's some lack of safety there.
I, you know, um, where, where, where did you pick that up?
Mike: It's a good question. It's, I, [00:54:00] uh, you know, my, my initial thought is just at a, at a, at a very young age, it's my, you know, my parents being happy with my behavior was just super important
Julie: So what was it like for you if they were disappointed in you? Mike: I, I hated it.
It's, it's... Yeah, it's
Julie: So, so what was something that you could do to disappoint them? Mike: You know, it could've been a, a bad grade or not, you know
Julie: So what... So let's say you got a really bad grade, okay? What would be... What do you think that would bring up for them? That, that we know they're gonna be disappointed, right?
But, but disappointed in what? Your, your failure, your- Yeah ... inability to perform, your, you know.
Mike: Yeah, I, I think all those things, and it's, [00:55:00] you know, it... Yeah, I mean, it's all those pieces that kind of wants to make, wants to make sure that I'm, you know
Julie: Safe?
Mike: Yeah. Ex- safe, you know, meeting expectations, um
Julie: Okay.
And so we're, we're gonna have to assume that they were carrying some fear around you not doing well in life.
Mike: Interesting. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And I mean, that's... They're not going to care about your grades if it doesn't have some signi- sort of meaning to it.
Mike: Right.
Julie: And, and most people, most, you know, parents care about their kids' grades because they want to know their kids are gonna be safe.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Okay? So, so we know... Can we, can we agree then that your bad grade was a threat to their sense of safety?
Mike: Makes sense. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so then how did they, they react to their own fear and to you? [00:56:00] What did they do with their own fear?
Mike: I think, oddly enough, there was probably just an... A not a lot said.
There was kind of a silence.
Julie: So it was, it was a, a disconnection.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So I don't really know exactly how that worked, you know, what was going on with them. But I do know this. Their, their fear took them away from you. That, that sounds to me like it was the worst thing that could, could've, y- you could've felt growing up is, is a distance between the silence and the distance and that, the disconnection and that.
Mike: It, it was probably almost a mutual disconnection, 'cause there was a lot of sadness and disappointment within myself and
Julie: Sure ...
Mike: me knowing that they were also disappointed and quiet on the subject. Yeah, it's like a double whammy. It's a double disconnect, I guess.
Julie: Exactly So, so y- it started with them though, [00:57:00] because they're the ones as, as the parents who set up the dynamic where if you did something that triggered their fear and their disappointment, they would distance, and then you would start to feel really bad about yourself, and then the shame would cause you to distance.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And that was a really bad, awful place for you. And that's probably what, when you say we get... What is the word? Say, off-kilter. I can't remember the e exact term, term you used. But when you and Rachel get off-kilter, it's probably very similar feelings, right? She's disappointed.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And there's a disconnection, and then maybe you pull away from that space also.
And so what I wanna know is how did you make sense of yourself when your parents were disappointed in you? [00:58:00] How did you make sense of that bad grade? What was it about you that was disappointing them, that was getting
the bad grade to begin with? Not trying hard enough. Not, not smart enough. You know, lazy.
I don't know. We all, all... Kids are gonna make sense of this in all different ways.
Mike: Yeah. It was, it was all those things. It was, yeah, whether it wasn't being engaged enough, you know, smart enough, not, not going and seeing the tutor, um, w- not doing the things that could have avoided it.
Julie: So, so kind of like not, not measuring up, not doing the work, not putting the work in, not
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And what kind of people, what kind of people don't, don't put the work in?
Mike: Lazy ones.
Julie: What are lazy people? Are they unworthy? Are they
Mike: They're not gonna be successful.
Julie: Okay [00:59:00] And what's so bad about unsuccessful people just in this part of your mind? Like, are they, are they unworthy? Are they, are they going to be accepted?
Are they
Mike: Yeah, it's, it doesn't meet the standards, and I mean, they're, they're they're gonna be a burden to somebody.
Julie: Uh- Okay. They're burdens, yeah. There we go. They're not gonna be able to take care of themselves, and they're gonna have to have other people take care of them, and they're weak. And so do you see that as a child, just in this one little thing of getting a bad grade, it would take you here to, it's not just a bad grade, it's, it's a bad grade that's going to trigger my parents, and it's going to trigger them because the reason I'm getting this bad grade is because I'm not working hard enough, and the reason I'm not working hard enough is [01:00:00] because maybe I'm just lazy, and lazy people aren't gonna be successful in the world.
Mike: Right. Yeah.
Julie: And they're actually af- af- after that, they're gonna actually be a burden. Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And in your little kid mind, you put this on your parents. You put this on them.
Mike: Yeah. And one other, just on this topic too, one of the other things that heavily played into that was my, my brother was a... Is everything just came easy for him.
He was a straight A, you know, student, and like couldn't even, wouldn't even have to show up to school. Like everything was just so easy for him, and it was like everything was so hard for me academically. Um, that's where it was just like, I felt like if I, if I couldn't hit the bar, something's wrong with me.
Julie: Yeah. Right. What does he have that I don't have?
Mike: Right. Right. So that was
Julie: And it, and it... Whatever the answer to that question was [01:01:00] created, uh, you know, it, it's all going to circle back to this theme of incompetence, of not working hard enough, of, you know, however we have to get there, unsuccessful And it makes so much sense to me because your parents had a lot of fear about you being unsuccessful Otherwise, the grade wouldn't have mattered
Mike: Right.
Julie: Right. And, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that fear. I mean, we all need to, as parents, hope and, you know, have some level of fear about our kids being successful in the world, because that's part of parenting, is to help them become successful.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Right? It's what they were doing with that fear that wasn't so healthy.
What they did with that fear is I think they, you know, uh, somehow it turned into distancing from you. [01:02:00]
Mike: And I, uh, it's interesting to think back on that and see how much they distanced versus I distanced from them in, in those
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: in those dark places that I would take myself.
Julie: Okay, so let's say you were distancing from them.
We still have to assume you're distancing from a bad feeling, right? And the bad feeling is letting them down.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And I don't know how they communicated that to you, but somehow they did, because you wouldn't have had to distance from that if it wasn't there
Mike: Yeah
Julie: So maybe it was just not... Maybe it was just in what they weren't saying, which would've been what?
What would've helped you not have to feel all these bad things about yourself around that one grade?
Mike: Basically, it would've been, you know, them saying [01:03:00] that it's okay. You know, just understanding what's going on. I mean, it, it's hard to think back, you know, that far, but it's, it's like having that reassurance that, "Hey, you, you may have missed the mark on this one, but it's
Julie: Sure
Mike: it's okay."
Julie: This failure doesn't define you.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Yes, we wanna figure out and problem solve and figure out what caused this bad grade and what we need to do to help you in life, but this doesn't define you.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: This doesn't make you, you know, um, a loser or unsuccessful or lazy or... Mm, even if there's truth in needing to put more effort into that class or whatever it was.
There, there could be truth to all of that, but the difference is it doesn't define you as a person.
Mike: Yeah. That's
Julie: Did you need to hear, "This doesn't define you. You're still acceptable. You're still wonderful even when you get a bad grade"? [01:04:00] We still view you as successful.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: I, I think there's also something here that, that feels even bigger to me, which is I think you needed to know that that bad grade didn't cause them to feel emotional pain.
Mike: Yeah. It's... What, what's interesting too is it's, it's actually hard for me to even think back on instances where I may have disappointed them, 'cause it's like I naturally try and block that out In a weird way
Julie: Yeah, you loved them so much that y- I don't, I think it was just really, really hard on you, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
I think it was just really, really hard on you to think that you could do something to cause them to be scared or hurt or, or feel anything uncomfortable.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: I think part of your motivation in life was to help keep them [01:05:00] regulated because you just didn't wanna hurt them.
Mike: Yep. Yep.
Julie: And I think really, truly what you needed to hear was, "We can handle our fears.
We can handle our disappointment. You're a kid. You don't have the power to ruin our day."
Mike: Yeah. That's- "
Julie: We care about you. We want you to do well, but it's not the end of the world for us." What would've been different if you would've heard that? When you got a bad grade or you don't show up to the family party
Mike: I think there, there would have been, you know, a, a huge sense of just relief and calmness, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: It would, uh, you know, let me know that, you know, the world's still okay. It's not, it's not shaken.
Julie: No, you don't have this enormous level of power over your parents' emotions like you were given the message that you did. And so I want you right now, I just want you, you know, to imagine this little [01:06:00] boy, you know, in this place of distance, in this place of shame, alone in your room, dealing with all of this, um, on your own.
And I want you just right now to go, go back as your adult self and tell that little boy what he needed to hear Which is you don't have the power over your parents' emotions to the degree that you think. You don't have to protect them. They're strong. They can handle their feelings. You're not gonna make or break them.
Is that what it would sound like?
Mike: I would s- yeah, I think that really
Julie: Okay ...
Mike: that would've been a powerful message at that time, yeah.
Julie: Okay. So I want you to tell, I want you to put that into your words right now. What that little boy you needed to hear, that you would tell your little boy when your little boy fails.
Mike: You know, it, it would go back to just- You saying that, [01:07:00] you know, it's, it's okay to not always get everything right. It's okay to struggle, you know. I'm here to, you know, support you and, you know, it's, it's-- this, this doesn't define you. This is a, a small piece and there's so many things about you that you are succeeding at, and it's not...
Basically don't, you know, yeah, don't let this, let it define you. I mean, it's
Julie: Yeah. Would you, would you also maybe say, "I'm not going to fall apart if you don't do well"?
Mike: Yeah
Julie: My, my, my peace and joy in the world doesn't wholly depend on you performing at some level. I can handle my own feelings. Would that have helped too?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: So [01:08:00] put that in your words so we can get really clear, because this is gonna all circle back to what you're needing from Rachel in these moments when it's triggered in the relationship
Mike: I can handle my, you know, own emotions and just the discomfort and, you know, in these instances, and it's, you know, you don't need to, you don't need to protect me from the disappointment.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Mike: It's not a disappointment.
Julie: Yeah. And even if there is some disappointment there, I can handle that Mike: Yeah.
Julie: I can be disappointed. That's part of life.
Mike: Right.
Julie: I'm not, I'm not gonna resent you because, you know, I can't get it my way all the time. So I want you to just close your eyes and, and imagine that you go to this little boy, and you're the parent, [01:09:00] and you say this.
You give a new message, and just come back to me when you're ready. Was he able to take that in?
Mike: Yeah
Julie: And how does it feel in your body right now to give yourself these new messages?
That even when other people are disappointed, it's not gonna destroy them
Mike: Yeah. I mean, it's, it feels good. It's, it's, uh, just having that sense of reassurance, it's, it's powerful.
Julie: So now we need to just kind of bring this back into the relationship You know, now, now I need to know what you need to hear from Rachel just right here and now around those times when she's disappointed 'cause you guys wanna do [01:10:00] things differently or whatever What can she say right here and now?
That will help you With the fear that her disappointment is going to take her so far away from you, and she won't be able to, she won't be able to deal with it
Mike: Yeah, I think it would be
You know, I'd, I'd like to do something else and, you know, but I want you to know that You know, we can, we can, it's okay that I'm disappointed. I can, I can handle that And I just, you know, I would want her to share where she's at. But I just, just knowing that, and her telling me that she can carry that disappointment and that it's [01:11:00] okay, I think that would go a long ways.
Julie: Okay. So I want you to ask her for that reassurance right now. Say, you know, "What I, what I really need right here and now to help me with this fear is I need some reassurance," and then you put that into your words.
Mike: Yeah. What would really help me with this fear is just the reassurance that even though we may not disagree or whatever it is that causes disappointment, that you can, you can handle that and carry it and not pull away from me and still maintain a, the connection that we both are, are after.
Julie: All right. Julie jumping back in. This, you know, is a, is a, is a really great practical shift for them because Mike has spent his life trying to manage everyone else's feelings. He's terrified of Rachel being disappointed in him. It makes him, you know, like we talked last week, of wanna go with the flow [01:12:00] and abandon his own needs.
But here he's doing something different. This is the work. He's asking Rachel to reassure him that she can handle her own disappointment. He's finally putting down the impossible burden of trying to constantly manage her emotional state. All right, let's hop back in.
And Rachel, you can go ahead and respond to that.
Rachel: Thank you for sharing that with me. And I'm happy to work on that and provide the support that you need.
Mike: Okay. Yeah. That'd be super helpful.
Julie: So it sounds like to me, Rachel, that what you're saying is, um, and I know it's tricky here because you have your own need on the other side of the equation, but I think that...
I th- he's, he's always worried about disappointing you. He's always worried about any moment that you would be disappointed. I mean, we, we need to get the relationship to a point where [01:13:00] you aren't disappointed as often, and not disappointed around these big fundamental issues. This isn't about we need to help Rachel, you know, tolerate chron- chronically being disappointed.
That's not what this is about. But it is about recognizing that when two people come together, there are going to be situations in life where one of us is disappointed. It just is. And he needs to know that you can, you can handle y your disappointed feelings, and can you?
Rachel: Yeah. I'm, it's something I'm working on and doing probably a little bit better job at.
Julie: Okay.
Rachel: I think the dynamic just makes it really difficult because Julie: Mm-hmm ... '
Rachel: cause it's hard to pick apart right now. Well, y- [01:14:00] yeah, and just The bubble is so small, so there's constantly an opportunity for this to happen.
Julie: Sure. So right now it's, it- you're being overwhelmed with disappointment
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, because typically, you know, there, there have been very few times where we don't go with the flow Very few times where me sharing
Julie: Okay,
Rachel: so I'm gonna
my opinion
Julie: Okay, I'm gonna pau- pause you here. I don't wanna go too deeply into that, because there's a lot of stuff to be said here. Um, what I just wanna highlight right here and now is that nobody is going to be able to survive an environment where they're just chronically being disappointed [01:15:00] over and over and over again.
The disappointment just keeps coming at them 90 miles an hour, and that's what you guys have been doing in this cycle. And by getting this cycle stabilized, we're going to dramatically decrease the times when you're, you know, disappoint. Right now, it's kind of like this whole dynamic is disappointing.
But part of that work is getting Mike comfortable with disappointing people. Right?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And because hi- the reason for that is because he received so many messages in life that we can't really handle our disappointment. You, you have, as a child, you have a little too much power over our emotional wellbeing.
What I, I, I, I can't go to his mom and say, "Hey, listen, I, I need for you to start sending Mike some messages that you can deal with the disappointment if we, if we don't show up to the party," right? But I can help you give him those messages, and I understand that we have to counterbalance [01:16:00] that with creating an environment that's not so disappointing to begin with, but this is part of doing that.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And so
Rachel: And it's easier for me to have less disappointment around this stuff when he shares his heart and I'm not wondering.
Julie: Exactly.
Rachel: Because then I feel, I feel like I don't have enough information, and that's disappointing. So, like, when he comes to me and can share openly, it already, like, lessens, you know, where, probably where he thinks I'm coming from with disappointment.
If that makes sense.
Julie: Yeah, and that, and that's part of... Yeah, absolutely. That's part of the, the r- truth, that emotional connection is, is really the healing here.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Part of that connection is how are we gonna navigate disappointment when it happens? And, and you're saying, "Look, what feels really good for me is when he comes to me and he, and he talks to me about that.
That helps me feel less disappointed."
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Um, and, and we're getting there, [01:17:00] and then on top of that, we need for him to know that you're y- y- you're ul- ultimately a, a strong adult, and you can handle these, these times when, you know, it's... It... No matter how much work we've done, he wants to go to the party and you don't, and you go.
And it's hard to say that right now because you have so much pain around this. Exactly. But I think that there is a part of you also that recognizes, we can work through. Yes, I've got some blocks. Yes, I do, because this p- situation has been so incredibly painful. Um, but you also recognize, I'm very open to us working through this.
Rachel: Absolutely. . 'Cause it'll get us where we both wanna be.
Julie: Yes. And so you are also on board with both of you being able to deal with disappointment. It's not just you, it's both of you.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Right.
Julie: Um, but we just happen to be talking about some of his fears around it [01:18:00] right now.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: And you, you need to know the same re- you need to have the same reassurances, and when we do some deeper work with you, we'll get there.
But what I think he needs to know right now is that, yes, I do have some blocks because of this cycle that we've been in, but m- I'm so open to making sure that you get messages in this relationship in the bigger picture that y- you're not wholly responsible for my feelings. I think that's really what this boils down to.
Rachel: Yeah
Julie: And so can you, can you tell him that?
Rachel: Can you help me with those words again? 'Cause my brain shuts off.
Julie: I know. It's a lot. It's a lot. That's why we have to really slow this down and do repeated, you know, re- reps of it. But it, it's that, yes, I have some blocks, but At the end of the day, you're not wholly responsible for my [01:19:00] feelings.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I've got some blocks to work through, but at the end of the day, you're not responsible for my feelings, and I will manage Yeah.
And not, not go away.
Mike: Feels good to hear that, for sure. Thank you for sharing.
Julie: All right. So it's, it's not fully fleshed out and fully clear at this point, but let me just kind of bring this into a moment where it might show up in a cycle, right? Let, let's say you guys are really stable and, you know, you're feeling a lot safer with each other and, um, Rachel, you, you generally know he's got my back.
You know? If I really didn't wanna go to this thing, then we... He can honor that or, [01:20:00] um, but you have also done your part to let him know that you're gonna meet him too in this place, right? And, and then on top of that, the, the family events feel safer to begin with because you guys have a, a, a tighter emotional connection.
You're not so, feeling so left alone in that environment. That's a big piece of it. Yeah. But we still come upon one of those times when he's over here going, "You know this is so important to me," and you're over here going, "I really don't wanna do this right now, but I'll do it." So I don't want him distancing from you in that place because he's so worried about letting you down And so I need for him to be able to come to you and say, "Hey, listen, this is one of those moments.
You know me. I, I start to feel like, you know, if I, if I disappoint you and we do this my way, then you're gonna resent me and, you know, there's gonna create all this [01:21:00] distance for f- between us and take us off, off kilter. Can I just get r- some reassurance that right now, y- you know, even though you're disappointed, you can do this and, you know, we're not gonna go to that distance place?"
And you're able to say, "Yes, absolutely. You know, I, I can be disappointed, and I can handle that. It's not gonna make me mad at you." And that will take the situation in a very different direction, and it doesn't even have to be around the family stuff. It can be around anything. And you may, Rachel, have already been capable of doing that and probably already have done a lot of that, but y- you've had to do more of it than, than what is healthy to ask of you.
And so again, a lot of the work over here is with Mike getting him at peace with letting people down.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And again, [01:22:00] in the cycle where that conversation doesn't happen, it will go into a bad place
Does that make sense?
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Does this make sense to you, Mike?
Mike: Yeah. No, it does.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Yeah, I'd say it's the, yeah, the start of a lot of cycles historically.
Julie: Yeah, we need, we need for you guys to have, between the two of you, a corrective emotional experience where there's more safety around, um, other people's feelings.
And, and really when we, when we talk about, you know, this word enmeshment with your family, which is what we kinda started with, um, is the enmeshment is feeling overly responsible for each other's feelings.
Mike: That's a good way of putting it. [01:23:00] Yeah
Julie: And I don't want to give you the message, Mike, that you're wholly the problem here. It's just we are working on your side of the street right now and your emotional engagement work.
Mike: Yeah. There's, there's a lot of truth to it, for sure, um, I recognize it.
Julie: Our next step is, Rachel, to get into your stuff from, you know, the past that might be showing up in the relationship in ways that aren't so effective
Rachel: Yeah
Julie: All right.
Well, we'll go ahead and, and stop there. Okay, this is where we'll wrap up for today. You know, there's a lot of relief in the room when a couple finally gets on the same page. For a long time, Mike thought he was just doing Rachel a favor by hiding his stress. He thought his poker face was protecting her.
But as Rachel pointed out today, being shut out is actually much harder for her to deal with. [01:24:00] She told him, "It's easier for me to have less disappointment around this stuff when he shares his heart and I'm not wondering." You know, Mike is starting to see that Rachel doesn't need him to be perfectly stress-free.
She just needs him to be honest about where he is. So next week, we'll continue working through these older childhood narratives to see how they're still
shaping the marriage today. So this week's reflection: do you constantly hide your stress, or do you go with the flow because you are, are afraid of burdening your partner?
You know, this week, try, try sharing one small worry with them if you're used to just holding it all in. You know, something that you would normally handle alone, and give them the chance to show up for you. That's a part of secure attachment, is not just knowing your partner will be there for you, but knowing that they will invite you in.
That is where connection lies. And as always, if you're enjoying this podcast, please leave us a five-star rating on Spotify or Apple. [01:25:00] A big thank you to Mike and Rachel. Thank you so much for sharing your truth, uh, and helping couples out there, and thank you to our audience for listening. So until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.

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S3 | Session 14: The Burden of the Poker Face: How Hiding Stress Hurts Your Marriage

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S3 | Session 15: Two People Overboard: The Co-Regulation Conundrum

S3 | Session 13: Always Second Place: Fighting to Be Your Partner's Priority