Unraveling the Roots of the Negative Cycle Pt. 1

In this episode

Julie Menanno maps out Melissa and Drew's negative cycle and traces how an old attachment wound keeps hijacking their evenings. When their newborn son was in the ICU for open heart surgery, Melissa felt emotionally abandoned, and that unhealed wound still fires whenever Drew comes home distant. Julie explains unmet attachment needs, how the past wells up in the body, and why healing conversations can only happen outside the negative cycle.

Key takeaways

• Julie maps the couple's negative cycle: a trigger, Melissa's critical protest, Drew's reassure-and-avoid response, then mutual withdrawal in silence.
• An attachment wound from their son's open heart surgery in the ICU still activates Melissa's body whenever Drew seems distant or cold.
• Unmet attachment needs—feeling validated and knowing a partner will show up when it matters most—sit at the core of the disconnection.
• Growth can look like the opposite attachment style: Melissa pulls away to process instead of urgently protesting, a sign of new flexibility.
• Wounds cannot be healed inside a negative cycle; couples first name how the wound shows up in the present before attempting deeper healing.

Read the full transcript

Unraveling the Roots of the Negative Cycle Pt. 1 — The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno Hi everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author Julie Menanno. And of course I'm joined with our lovely, brave, real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're doing something new.

We're going to do this episode five in two parts. So this week will be episode five, part one. And next week will be episode five, part two. And I'll explain more about that later.

But for now, here's a recap of our first four sessions thus far. We have a clear idea of how Melissa and Drew's negative communication cycle plays out. And I'll go ahead and map it out now. So it starts with some kind of triggering event.

Maybe it's about the relationship. Maybe it's not. One of them gets triggered and acts on the trigger in a way that creates an attachment rupture between them. And then it does become a relationship problem.

And it can start on either side. But usually, Melissa is going to be the first one to voice it when she feels usually emotionally abandoned and thinks he's gone again, even if it's not consciously. But her body ramps motivate her to take action so she doesn't have to feel alone and scared that things will never change. And she goes into a critical protest place and then Drew picks up on her complaints and anger.

And now his body goes into an alarm bell place. It says alarm bell. This is going to go south. And again, this is all happening subconsciously.

And he tries to avoid the heat by getting her to feel better. or to see it differently, or just convince her it's going to be fine. And now Melissa feels like her feelings and needs are being invalidated, which makes it worse for her, and she keeps up with the protest. And then Drew gets frustrated with her for not responding to his efforts to get her to feel better, but even more so with himself for not being able to fix it.

And sometimes he shuts down at this point, and sometimes he pushes back. in which case they go back and forth until they both pull away in silence, usually with Melissa seething and Drew emotionally retreating. And eventually they make their way back, but the underlying problems never really get resolved. And as time goes by, Melissa has found herself becoming increasingly angry and anxious, and Drew has found himself more frustrated and pulling away.

But with that said, we're getting somewhere. They, things are improving. They're finding themselves in fewer negative cycles. They're getting more in touch with their feelings, showing up in new ways with each other and working better as a team.

And as their negative cycle stabilizes at home and in the way that it, you know, sometimes subtly shows up in the sessions, we're moving toward the second stage of this therapy, the stage where we do even deeper and more powerfully bonding work. We're not quite there yet, but we are definitely moving in the right direction. And so that leads us into where we are now. In part one of this episode, we're going to start talking about an attachment wound.

And I'll explain more later about what that means. But an attachment wound that took place between Melissa and Drew two years ago when their newborn son was in the hospital undergoing open heart surgery. As you can imagine, the situation was awful in every way. And it's not at all uncommon for this type of a situation to take an enormous toll on the relationship of any couple going through this level of trauma.

So we've been in our sessions kind of talking around this event here and there, but today it comes up more directly. And in this first part, we're going to get to know more about the story. And then in part two next week, you'll see that I'm going to use this event as a way to dive into the deeper work with Drew. And I also want to put out there that next week I'll have a special surprise guest therapist coming into our commentary, someone who I learn so much from who is very skilled.

in working with men especially. And so he's going to add some insight into our work with Drew. Okay, so let's go ahead and dive into our session where we're going to start with the two of them sharing what's going better at home. And then we're gonna move into that attachment mode.

Okay, awesome. Well, how are you guys doing? Good. Yeah, we just came off a big weekend of hosting.

My extended family was in town. But I feel like this was the first time that we were saying that we hosted and it wasn't crazy stressful. It was manageable. With small kids, it's hard to host.

So we did it. It was kind of fun. I'm impressed. was less stressful about it?

What made it less stressful? I don't know. I think we just worked really well as a team. kind of navigated through, to be fair, probably to my parents were here for a big portion of it.

So they jump in and help out with the kids as well. That was probably a big part of it. Yeah, we didn't go to the ER. Okay.

Yes, you've had a little bit of a break. That's a win. Yeah, that is a win. All right.

Well, what about, you know, anything going on between the two of you? I'm always going to, you know, check in on those negative cycles. Have you noticed fewer, less intense, faster repair? Any or all of the above?

I think still noticing any and all of the above. I think this week was kind of interesting, though. you know, after last week's session, know, Drew was kind of noticing like we were off for the those first couple of days, feeling maybe a little more disconnected, noticing a little bit more frustration for me. so, okay.

I mean, I agreed with that and I tried to remember the things we worked on in the beginning, reflecting like, okay, I'm feeling frustrated. That's an okay. Like it's okay to be angry, sort of validate the anger. Why am I feeling angry?

You know, what's going on with that? And so I just tried to sit with that feeling for a little while and... think about what was going on with that. Yeah.

OK. And so Drew, you mentioned that you were feeling more disconnected after the last session. Do you mean you were feeling disconnected or you could sense that Melissa was feeling disconnected? Yeah, I could sense that Melissa was a little distant for a few days.

You know, it was kind of just hard to be on the same page. know, we've been waking up and taking morning walks. So a lot of times we kind of kick that connection off bright and early and it kind of sets up the day pretty well. And, you know, just kind of noticed we'd sit down in the evening after getting the kids down and it's, you know, it was just very quiet, right?

Just not your bubbly self, I suppose. Yeah. So what do you think that's about? is that, you know, I know, Melissa, we talked last time about how a lot of the time, and you can correct me here if I'm wrong, some of that bubbly is you kind of doing damage control, right?

Yeah. there something to the fact that maybe you're not doing so much damage control or feeling compelled to do? Here I think I think it was just a lot to process and it just takes some time to catch up with my thoughts. I try to write them down too, but I think last time when we spoke, it really was encouraging, not doing damage control, to hear Drew open up and share how he's feeling, but it also was very frustrating.

I didn't want to come right out and say, you I'm angry because that's the last thing you want to do. Your partner's finally opening up and sharing something and you don't want the first thing out of your mouth to be like, well, that just makes me furious. But it does. So I just kind of sat with it for a few days.

Like, why is this making me so mad? What am I so upset about? What is going on? And I think it just brought up a lot of old unresolved things.

Yeah. Okay. Julie jumping in here. This is a common thing that happens when people start to grow toward a more secure attachment.

They actually start to make new moves that can look like the opposite style. So while Melissa isn't actually becoming an avoidant attacher, she is taking on an avoidant approach here. Notice how she's in this angry place and, but she's not getting urgent. She's actually pulling away.

She's processing inside. And Drew's describing now feeling kind of anxious about her retreat. And this is very common as couples start to grow towards secure because of one word, flexibility. People start getting more flexible when they start feeling safer and they start to play around with new moves.

Big picture, of course, we don't want her to have to stay in this place. That's definitely not what we're going for here. But in the big picture, it is a sign that growth is happening. OK.

So some stuff from the past. Yeah. Something kind of paved the way for some stuff from the past to start servicing. Yeah.

OK. Okay. Yeah, I think. Go ahead.

I think. You know the more and more I thought about it I feel like You know I've begged you Drew for years and years and years for more thoughts more feelings You know, how are you? What do you think about that? What's going on for you?

And I think it was really hard for me to hear from you You know that it's maybe hard to open up to me or that you get nervous to do that sometimes. think that was kind of a difficult gut punch to hear that because nobody wants to feel like the bad guy. And I you It's definitely a sore area of just feeling like I don't want it to ever be my day versus your day. I want there to be space for you've had a hard day and I want to be there to support you.

But I think a lot of times what has happened and does happen is if we both have a challenging day and you're shutting down and checking out, I end up feeling alone a lot of the time. and I'm missing that connection with you and kind of that second shift of the day, that five to nine shift, it's so hard to feel alone and I think that's an old feeling and I think I just, those first couple of days after that, like this last week after the session, I felt lost in my own thoughts of how do I show you that I love you and want to support you and be a good partner? and also advocate for this feeling that I've held onto for a long, long time of I also don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to be like, I'm a mean monster and you're scared to come to me or I have to, you you check out because your day was hard and now I'm alone with the rest of the day with the kids.

And it's just, I don't know how to resolve those two What you're saying is we're still having trouble like these after work, after five to nine, right? Something isn't the way you want it to be from five to nine. Well, I mean, more accurately, I would say when we're having a good day, it's so great. Okay.

And you can feel that engaged energy in our house and in connected to each other and our kids can feel it and we're connected to our kids and we're playing in the backyard. But when we're having a hard day, you can almost feel that just as extremely of. And when you say we're having a hard day, do you mean just Drew's having a hard day or just you two are having a hard day Yeah, I guess that's a good question. Like it could be either one of us has a hard day, but then the other one of us doesn't have the ability to cope with the other person, you know, having that hard something happens to where your kind of bad moods trigger, really trigger each other.

Yeah. Yeah. And can we agree that, you know, let's just talk about what we would want to do with this. Like would it be nice?

Would you guys want to get it to a place where, you know, you can have those bad moods and somehow you guys can help each other instead of getting triggered and... going into that second layer of bad. Very much so. And so what might get in the way of that?

Let's say Drew comes home and he's had a bad day and you were to reach out and say, hey, honey, what's going on? Or just you want to help me understand? I know you don't have time to have a super long conversation because the kids are there, but just check it out with him. What might happen?

kind of exploring around here for what might block getting back on that same page, even if he's not fully able to be, sometimes we can't just be happy right away. does that feel like not fair? Like you don't get that from him. I think I, you know, in moments where I've tried that, it's, I don't get much response out of him.

It's just almost like not a good time to open up and go down that road. So it's more of a like, it's fine. It's fine. Nevermind.

see. Yeah. Okay. So for you, feels like you can't really, he's not really reachable.

Yeah. Okay. And into the words that you get are, it's fine. It's fine.

It's fine. and maybe what would be helpful to hear. Something like, I don't know, anything like, hey, I know I seem a distant. You're right, I did have a hard day.

I really do want to talk about it later. I just appreciate you being there for me. Like something to know like And how would that feel different for you if he were able to kind of say, hey, it's not about you. I love you.

I will open up to you. I'm not in a place where I can do it right now. What would be different for I think even that would just. feel less lonely.

Like, it's not about me. This has nothing to do with our relationship, but you still want to connect to me. You still want me to be your person, even if it's in the tiniest sense. But hey, we can still handle this together.

Our relationship is sturdy enough to handle this roller coaster that we know our kids are going to put us on. Like, yes, I had a hard day. We can talk about that later and we will because we are always there for each other but still gonna be here with you with whatever this throws us. Okay and so if we know what would feel good right would be some kind of engagement some kind of reassurance that I love you I'm still here you know yeah it's a bad I'm not in the best place right now but I will come back right yeah so what's it like for you when you don't get what happens for you when you are kind of just left in the I think it's really fearful because you know, our kids are still little, but when they were little little and it was the hardest, hardest, I think there was so much disconnect between the two of us that it's hard to separate out like, we're just having a small tiff now and we're going to be fine versus like, no, everything is going to be awful.

Like my mind has a hard time separating. Like I have the logic, but the feeling is still there. So like your body goes into that response. as we've worked here, I've definitely become more aware of that.

OK, so you start to, in these moments when he distances, it reminds you of the past when you guys would go to this distant place and the kids were babies and it was really, really hard. And then what was that like? Like you guys would paint me a picture of what was so hard about that back then. that your body is so afraid of it now?

I think what I was feeling was a lot of anger, but I didn't allow myself to recognize it as such. I think then you just resolve to, well, if I'm going to have to do this alone, then I'm just going to do it alone. And you kind of get that little attitude of like, I better figure this out, because somebody does have to figure it out. You know, you're scared.

Really, that's the core feeling, but you're also mad and I don't wanna, but I don't wanna be alone. So I'm also feeling rejected because I wanna do it together. Okay, so for all these years, you felt alone. And I'm glad that we're talking about this, by the way, because I know we've kind of talked around it for a bit, a few times, right?

And I'm glad that we're kind of diving in a little bit here. So for all these years, you felt really kind of alone. And can you help me understand more about that? was it, what was going on with that?

How long did that last? What got you guys out of I don't know if we ever came out of it. I think the immediacy just sort of faded. And I think it just, we focused on other things.

Drew really dove into work, and I really dove into the kids. And we just found our support systems within those realms. And you patched by enough. so let me, yeah, sorry to interrupt you.

Let me ask you this. If you were to kind Give me an example of a moment in the past. You bring up this past stuff that happened that really drove a wedge between the two of you and is still really comes alive when he comes home in a bad mood. Somehow those experiences from the past really come alive.

Can you just paint me a picture of a day that sort of exemplifies this thing that happened, this wound? Probably the worst, scariest place where the wound originates from would be when our son was in the ICU, which is impossible to navigate correctly because there's zero roadmap for that. But we were doing our best and it's a lot of who has the other two kids and we're trading shifts, but he's also trying to figure out a new job. so It's just, I don't think we were ever going to succeed.

think it's impossible and we tried our best. But I think there was a lot of sharpness during that time because we're afraid for our son. We're afraid for our other two kids. have a whole, our son was three months old.

So he's in an ICU covered in machines and wires. You don't know immediately if he's going to make it or not. So that whole entire stress within itself also bundled with there's a whole entire other three month old baby at home that you're trying to bond with and figure out how to care for. Plus then our daughter was three at the time.

So yeah, she needs attention. I think Drew really wanted to provide, you know, make sure that everything was stable and that we were taken care of. And so he's trying to make sure things are okay in this brand new job. And I there were just a lot of moments of reaching out and trying to connect to each other and it just going so poorly and us really just then turning inward to each other.

And I think it was, you So you would reach them like, let's say you're just totally overwhelmed. You're at the ICU with the baby. You're not with your other baby and your daughter. You don't know what's going on with them.

I'm guessing that was just like a terrible, terrible feeling. Yeah. OK. And so what might happen?

You might reach out to Drew for some support or you help me understand here where this starts to go south. Yeah, I think there would be a lot of conversations and passing between the two of us. I think it was, know, Drew's attempt to keep everything stable. But to me, it came across as everything's fine and I have to do what I have to do.

Was it kind of like we hit upon a little bit last week, like kind of a cold response? Well, whether it was meant to be or not, that's how I received it. Okay. Okay, so something about it, can we say that that was sort of the word that sort of describes him when he's under a lot of stress as this kind of coldness comes over him?

Just unreachable. OK. Like I could be throwing just a life raft, but it just is there's no way. Like I could be cry and I was I was just crying and sobbing and pleading for any amount of support and emotional emotional support because he's trying to support me in a different way.

But it's not the support that I need and I need this emotional support. and it was just not there. Give me some examples of what that emotional support would have looked like for you or felt like for you. What are the words?

What are the actions? Just, uh-huh, you know, we're gonna figure this out. This is impossible. This really is as hard as it seems.

This really is the worst, but we're gonna, you know, navigate this together and, you know, even if we can't handle this, we will do it together and we'll figure it out day by day. Just something along those lines of this is real, this is happening, we're together, we're in Okay, Julie jumping in here. So what we're talking about here are unmet attachment needs, the crux of attachment theory. Attachment needs are those needs which need to be consistently met between partners for a relationship to be secure.

And all humans have attachment needs. And while different cultures may experience them in different ways and have different relational expectations, attachment needs are a part of our human wiring toward survival. And the degree to which someone is experiencing unmet attachment needs is the degree to which they're feeling isolated, regardless of whether or not they're physically surrounded by others. So circling back to where we are here in the session, the two attachment needs we're talking about here are to feel safe and close to you.

I need to know in the big picture of the relationship, you can validate and support my feelings. And to feel safe and close to you, I need to know you're going to be there for me when it really matters, when it's all on the line. Both Melissa and Drew have unmet attachment needs. And we're doing this work ultimately to get those needs back on board.

But one thing which can interfere with a couple's ability to repair ruptures as they arise is the presence of attachment wounds, not just ruptures, but wounds, or sometimes called attachment injuries. These are events or even a series of events that really shake a relationship to its core. They shake up trust in the biggest of ways. They ask the question, will you show up for me when it really matters, when it's the most important thing for me?

And the answer received is far enough from yes to impact trust and dramatically impact safety and to show up all over the relationship for years or even decades if gone unhealed. And sadly, so many couples could heal from these attachment wounds, but they just don't know how. And as I usher Melissa and Drew through this healing process as we go, I hope that if you're one of those couples, that that you can see here what healing can be and so back to Melissa what she is describing here is an attachment wound and like I said earlier We know there's a live Unhealed wound when it continues to show up over and over in interactions Melissa is describing a wound that shows up when Drew comes home and is distant and it's not just about the moment the past actually wells up in her body and Makes the trigger in the exponentially stronger. To heal these wounds, they're going to have to be able to have healing conversations.

And healing conversations can only happen outside of negative cycles, which they're not quite ready for yet. So I never try to directly facilitate a wound healing until the later stage of the therapy when they're communicating much more safely. The worst thing that can happen with the wound is talking about it in a way that's attacking or invalidating or defensive, because now we create another wound on top of the original wound. So for that to happen, Drew needs to be more emotionally engaged for this healing to happen, and Melissa needs to be more emotionally softened for this healing to But that doesn't mean I ignore wounds either and just pretend they never happen because we're in the beginning stages of the therapy.

Instead, when it feels safe, I have partners share about how the wounds are currently impacting their interactions in the presence. In other words, how are the old wounds showing up in current negative cycles? And I have them talk about the wound without actually diving into the wound. and seeking full emotional support for it.

If it's not yet safe for them to even share with each other about the wound, but we can't ignore the wound, I'll have them talk to me about the wound sometimes, and I'll be the co-regulator until they're ready to be that for each other. OK, so I think what I'm hearing is a theme. Two things. One is validation of how bad it is, and two, we're a team.

That's what you were needing. OK? Here you are, this is the darkest part of your life and you're wanting to get these messages. This is so, so hard.

This is unbelievable. There's no way that we can do this correctly because we have no idea what we're doing here. This is all new, but we're in this together and we're a team. And instead you're getting these messages, you're overreacting or what are the messages you're hearing.

And Drew, I'm not saying that's where your heart was. I'm just kind of trying to understand Melissa's experience of that. Because I believe, Drew, that in your heart, you were trying to take care of the situation in the best way possible too. Yeah.

I think I received his attempts as I have to do what I have to do. That was a lot of the messaging that I got. I can't slow down. don't have time for this.

I have to focus on these other things because that's what we need right now. I can't was the messaging. I can't be supportive. can't I can't be that emotional.

can't engage in that way. I don't want to have these conversations over and over again. Everything's fine. Everything's going to be fine.

OK, so do me a favor. Just kind of imagine right now, just imagine this interaction and his facial expression. And you're crying, and you're needing the support, right? Instead, you're just getting this kind of Silence, I don't know, one word answers coldness.

Like, tell me what comes up in you just kind of going there and painting that picture in your mind. Even just to try to go back to that moment is like a, it's like my whole body. It's like a heightened, like a flight state. Okay.

So is that like, where does that flight sit in you? It just runs through all my veins. Like my heart is racing. Okay, so let's just kind of linger there.

I know this is the worst place to linger, but let's see if we can sit with it for a So what comes up is you just kind of sit with it and let it be. it like a fear? Is it an anchor? I think my whole urge is to just get as far away from it as possible.

Right, that's what you want to do. And how do you usually do that? How do you get yourself out of I think I try every single thing possible, like sure of humiliating myself and begging, like please connect to me and when that doesn't work then I just... shut it off completely and then resolve to just do it myself or find a different way.

So somehow what you're used to doing is just somehow making it go away, making it go away. Yeah. Okay. And sometimes you're pretty successful with that, but not when he comes home and he's in a bad mood that sort of reminds you of that.

Yeah. And that's when you just can't make it go away anymore. It gets you. Yeah.

Like I have the logic in my brain to say, we're in our backyard. This is just, you know, this is 2024. Here's our kids. They're right there.

They're fine. Like I know, and I believe all of these things and all the success that we've been having, but it's that same feeling. And then like the desperation comes and then it's just confusing. Okay.

So then you're, you're just all, you're drowning in it. Yeah. Okay. And then I'm irritated with myself and then I'm irritated with him and I'm irritated with everything.

And then I'm mad. Well, because you know, one of the reasons, there's a lot of a lot going on here. mean, on one hand, it's just hard at all when, you know, our partner isn't in a good mood for both of you. You know, nobody likes that, right?

And then on the other hand, you know, you have your body remembers this feeling of disconnection. Your body goes back to when it was the worst, darkest place ever that, you know, trauma, honestly, what you're describing is trauma. And that was hard. And not only was it hard, but you felt really emotionally alone with it.

You couldn't reach him. And so all this is welling up. I'm imagining that's a pretty overwhelming experience for you. Yeah.

You don't know what to do with all those feelings. You're used to just kind of shoving them away or just putting your nose to the grindstone. But that strategy isn't really going to work. You don't want to abandon your family emotionally in these moments.

And you don't want to be mad. I don't really get that feeling. Yeah. And so what do you do?

to manage all of this in an evening between the two of you. I think my classic go-to is just I turn it off and just focus on the kids because they need so much. If I can just keep busy enough, it's almost like your own flighter fight, but it's like its own version of flight. Like it's almost like a little mini running away.

Yeah, absolutely. You're pretty good at distracting yourself, but then it causes, well... trying to organize it into the context of this cycle. But when you're distracting yourself, I'm guessing then, you know, that's when there's a kind of palpable tension in the air between the two of you.

He is already in a bad mood and now you're trying to deal with all the stuff you've got going on in you. And that is a real disconnected place for you guys to be. Yeah. Well, and then I think I add in a layer of guilt too, because I want This is not at all what I want to achieve.

want, you know, your best friend comes home and you want to be there for, like, how was your day? I want to hear about it. I want to be there for you. You really do.

get that. Yeah. But you're really, your nervous system is getting hijacked by this unhealed stuff from the past. Like, I think what I'm hearing you say is like, I do think that there is a way that maybe I could kind of reach him and help him out.

when he's in his low place and he could help you out when you're in your low place, but your body gets really hijacked by these old wounds that we haven't really been able to heal for both of you, right? Yeah. But I think there's also like a sense of failure that occurs too, I don't want to mess up in our marriage and what might happen if he's upset with me. So that's totally unrelated.

That's its whole other thing. And I think that's where my mind, it's too much to process. So I'd rather just not process anything. And are you noticing that right now that as all of this wells up and we're putting words to all of this, your body just sort of wants to shut it off and move away?

Yes and no. My body wants to shut it off and move away. what I really want in my heart is to find something new because I want to, you know, like I bring it up because I want to figure it out. Yeah.

I love that about you that you're willing right now to start putting words to this. And even though you know that there's a chance that he might be getting triggered over there because we're talking about some times in the past. you know, which were incredibly difficult for both of you, but you're still doing it. And so what I think might be helpful right now is just to share with him that like, you really do, you really do want to get to this place with the two of you where you can help each other out more, you know, in the evenings when you're feeling disconnected.

But there is this stuff from the past that shows up inside of your body. and pulls you away. Okay, Julie jumping in here. So this is the part where I'm having Melissa begin to share about the wound in a new way.

We're making safe space for it. She's sharing about how the wound shows up in their cycle. And now we'll hear from her what feels new about what she's sharing before we bring the first half of this session to a close. And if you're at home doing this work and trying to kind of navigate your way through these old wounds, this is a great place to start, which is just to start putting words to this with your partner and saying, you know, this is how this is kind of showing up for me in these hard moments.

Yeah, I I don't want to dive into it like a gotcha moment, but I really, I want to start to figure some of this out and learn something new because You know, it's so good when it's good, but it's so bad when it's bad. And I would like to figure out, you know, these things that keep coming up are gonna keep coming up until we, you know, figure it out. And I want to understand it and try something else. This is hard.

You know, nobody asks for this stuff to come in and contaminate our family evenings. And it sounds like you've tried really, really hard to not let that happen, but it still keeps coming up, coming up every time, you know, he comes home and he's kind of in that place where something important is going on for him. Yeah. And how is it to, does it feel a little bit different to share something about this?

Does anything feel new right now? it's, it's hard. I, it's a little scary and I feel a little guilty because I I don't want it to drive us further apart. Right.

That's that part of you that says, maybe if I just get over it, maybe if I just don't talk about it, then I'll just get over it myself. Because it is scary to talk about these things. You guys haven't been able to talk about these things from the past in a way that's felt healing for both of you, right? Right.

OK. And what does it feel like right now? mean, does it feel new to put words to it like what are the new words here that you're not used to saying? I'm trying to find what's new.

I think what's new is saying Hey, this keeps happening, but it's coming from a place of wanting to find a new way. Okay. And, Andrew, how is this for Really glad that we're talking about it because I think it's, I think we're getting at the root of something really, really important. And it's something that's come up time and time again, whether we realize it or not.

And it's kind of like, you know, how we kicked off this conversation today. You know, there was a, you could sense the disconnect and you know, at the root of it is kind of everything you just shared. So, you know, for me And I'm glad we're kind of airing this out a little bit. And obviously, you know, want to get past it as much as you do and not have it keep reoccurring.

All right. So it sounds like for you, yeah, this is a painful topic. You haven't had a lot of success doing this, but you also have some hope that you recognize, hey, this is really causing a problem. It does show up in the present still.

energy and these feelings that are unresolved. And there's some hope here that maybe we can make some space and try to heal some of these old feelings, old wounds. All right, Julie here. So Drew is glad that we're talking about it.

And he also agrees that this wound they experienced is at the root of their issues, which I think there is a lot of truth to. And I also think there's truth to the fact that the wound was fueled by issues that would have surfaced eventually. But this trauma kind of set it up to happen in a sudden and big way. I'm here to work on all of the layers, the underlying issues which made them vulnerable to the wound to begin with, and then the toll the wound took on them by surfacing these underlying issues and then making them worse.

And so in the next half of this episode, I'm going to spend some time exploring with Drew more about what was going on with him during this whole period. Because I can't really get this healed until he's not just emotionally engaged with what happened for Melissa during this time, but emotionally engaged with what was going on with himself during this time. Right now, the narrative, and this is a classic negative cycle, anxious avoidant narrative. is that this terrible traumatic thing happened and Melissa was left alone to handle it all emotionally because Drew just wasn't so affected by it all and kind of chose to not show up for Melissa or he was just too busy or whatever.

But basically he could have shown up for her in the right way, but he just didn't put in the effort. And that narrative doesn't heal because it doesn't accurately explain the situation and we know nothing about what was blocking Drew or what Drew needed to or anything about Drew at all. And if they try to heal it on their own based on the story that they've both written, they're just going to keep trying to heal it in the same negative cycle mentality that created it and keep being unsuccessful. So I need to first help them rewrite the narrative.

And so that's where we'll pick back And again, just a reminder, we're going to have a special guest therapist next week to join me for commentary around this. So you really don't want to miss that. And then the homework for this episode will come out at the end of part two next week. So this is a good chance to get caught up on any homework you missed in the first four sessions, which you can find on my website, thesecurerelationship.com.

But of course, my book, Secure Love, by me, Julie Menanno, is the instruction manual for all of this attachment work. And you'll also find In Secure Love, an entire chapter on these attachment wounds and how to heal them. All right, well, that concludes another episode of the Secure Love podcast. If you have the time, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple and Spotify podcasts to help get the word out to all the couples out there.

who need help. And of course, thank you to Melissa and Drew for their bravery and vulnerability. And I know we're all rooting for them. So all right, take care all and I'll see you next week.

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