Finding Balance in Chaos: Who Gets to Hurt Worse?

In this episode

Drew comes home from a demanding workday to find the kids throwing toys across the patio, and his frustration tips into irritation and shutting down. Melissa, tuned into her own hard day, struggles when she can't read what's going on with him. Julie Menanno helps them see the 'who gets to hurt worse' stuck place, where both need support at once. They practice holding space, better timing, and working as a team—one person at a time.

Key takeaways

• Both partners' feelings can be valid at the same time—the goal isn't deciding who hurts more, it's timing and mutual support.
• Julie names the 'who gets to hurt worse' trap: when both share distress at once, each triggers the other and neither ends up supported.
• Drew's avoidant shutdown—going quiet, getting short, compulsively picking up the house—is an attempt to cope with painful feelings, not indifference.
• Melissa 'front-loads' and walks on eggshells to avoid pushing Drew away, a habit rooted in the fear of ending up alone.
• The way out is holding space one person at a time, staying with the emotions, and facing the evening chaos as a team.

Read the full transcript

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author Julie Menanno. And of course I'm joined with our lovely, brave, real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're jumping into episode four. So to recap, last week we did some deeper work with Melissa and uncovered the layers of her relationship triggers and we got to know more about this insecure part of herself that says maybe it's me, maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm just not enough and if only I were better in all this list of ways then maybe Drew would actually want to show up for me and maybe you can relate to some of these insecurities in yourself and I just want to say that most people insecure places, but that doesn't mean the insecure places define you.

You probably have other secure parts that know your value and know you deserve love, but we can still have these insecure parts that question that sometimes and especially when we get triggered and this is shame and these parts deserve attention. They deserve words. They deserve some comfort. The antidote to shame is acceptance and we start by shining some light on And so it's important she's putting words to it because she doesn't have to keep having this insecure part, this shame keep getting triggered over and over again.

So we just sort of our toe into that work with Melissa last week. And in upcoming sessions, we'll be doing more shame work with both Drew and Melissa because what happens if we don't is that the shame will just keep showing up in negative cycles. And speaking of negative cycles, Last week, we learned more about Drew and Melissa's negative cycle in those moments that I'm sure many of you can relate to where Melissa gets the sense of urgency when she's triggered and there's some concern she wants to talk about and then feels like she has to choose between talking about it right then and there when the emotion is alive or just waiting until the next day when it's easier to tell herself, well, maybe it's not of a deal. And she recognizes that either way there's no resolution.

And the two of them were able to talk more about what happens for her when she feels this urgency. And Drew was able to understand her better, develop some empathy, and validate her. So on that note, a question many of you have is, how do we navigate this thing where one of us wants to talk about a hard problem now and the other one wants to talk about it later? or even never?

Well, first of all, both strategies are trying to protect. Of course, in an insecure relationship, everybody is trying to stay self -protected, but it's more than that. It's also about relationship protection. One partner, usually the more anxious partner, is trying to protect the relationship from unresolved bad feelings.

And the other, usually the more avoidant partner, is trying to protect the relationship from going into another negative cycle and creating even more bad feelings. And that can be a very helpful perspective to kind of make sense that we're all here kind of trying to work toward the same goal, but we can work toward the same goal in a better way. And you're going to need some practical skills to do that. And I go into those much more thoroughly in the book version of this podcast, Secure Love, and those include agreeing on a time.

You know, it's not fair that One partner should always have to drop everything when they're not open or we're in our red light brains or the timing just isn't right for whatever reason. And it's not fair that the other partners should be left hanging indefinitely. Other skills, agreeing to take breaks if things start to go south, recognizing that not all problems are going to be solved in one conversation. Some are, some aren't.

Sometimes we need to take bites at a time. And most importantly, learning the communication skills to have hard conversations outside of negative cycles so that you can experience success. This will lead to less need to have hard conversations to begin with. And when you can start becoming more successful with hard conversations by putting in the right work, they then start to become less of a thing to fear.

And in these sessions with Melissa and Drew, we're doing all of All of those skills I listed are at play here. This is an environment where it's all coming alive. We have a designated time when we meet, and we've all agreed this time is for the relationship. And there's a limit to our time.

We're not going to go on and on indefinitely, you for hours. And we all agree this isn't just one conversation, and we're taking it in bites. And most important, they aren't communicating in negative cycles. in the space.

We're talking about all the same bad feelings and experiences, but we're doing it in new ways. And I'm here helping them, you know, with that as they integrate these skills. And some couples will absolutely need a therapist to help them with all of this. They just won't be able to do it on their own.

But a lot of you can learn to do it on your own with effort, practice and patience. then the bigger, broader answer to the question is keep working towards secure attachment in all the ways that you can, your own growth included. Because when there is no anxious partner and when there is no avoidant partner and when both are secure, nobody is needing to protect themselves and the relationship in these rigid ways that really just don't feel good for anyone. And on that note, let's dive into episode and see what new things Melissa and Drew learn and do today to help them protect their relationship in better ways than being anxious and avoidant.

Okay. All right. Well, welcome back. So I'm going to ask you, you know, from here on out, when we get back together, how your week was.

And so what I'm really mostly looking for is, you Have you noticed fewer negative cycles, less intense when they do happen, and maybe faster repairs? And notice how I didn't say no negative cycles, because that's not realistic, especially where we are. It's not realistic for really any couple, but it's especially not realistic for where we are in the process. So I'm just looking for any signs of improvement.

So why don't you go ahead and jump in and let me know how you're doing. I definitely think it's all of the above. would say that we had a few things that kind of popped up, but definitely noticing we're very much quicker to repair and kind of pack lid more or less head on and try to understand what each other are feeling as a result. Yeah, and I would definitely think it's been much less as of Yeah, and lower in the intensity too.

think when we're able to catch things earlier on and just even bringing the awareness to it, it helps so much. Great. Awesome. Okay, well, I'm really glad to hear that.

What do you maybe attribute that to? And you might not be able to answer that, and that's okay, but what feels different for you that's making it a bit easier? I feel like I've noticed a huge shift in Drew and I've tried really hard to call that out and let you know that I see all of the changes, little pausing, being more patient, being willing to lean into something instead of just pull away, being a little more patient instead of being sharp, just noticing seeing maybe my fears or my anxieties and leaning into that and being willing to just, hey, instead of like being threatened by that, just leaning into it and being with me in it. And it just diffuses it, you know, much more quickly when you feel like you have someone who's loving you and taking care of you and being a teammate instead of someone who's an adversary.

Right. Wow. So when know that he's kind of there with you, even if maybe he's not showing up in the most perfect way possible, just knowing that he's with you and he's really doing this work helps you feel better. Yeah.

And tough moments. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. And Drew, you're nodding your head what's happening for you. Yeah. I mean, I think these past few sessions that we've had have enabled me to understand Melissa that much better.

So, you know, when she is going through going through something, whether it's an argument between us, whether it's something that's kind of building out within her, just my approach has been a little bit different where it's like, we're on the same team. It's not kind of what she said about being adversarial earlier. It's like, I want to be on the same team. I want to understand how you feel so I can kind of support and kind of we can work through this together.

instead of closing off for a couple of days and then letting things build into something really negative as a result. So I think it's just my approach has definitely been a lot more patient, but it's really because I'm starting to explore and better understand what she's going through when we go into a cycle like that. OK, beautiful. All right, well, we're definitely moving in the right direction.

where I would like to go is you mentioned, you know, sometimes these negative cycles show up around big stuff, like our child's in the hospital. By the way, how are they doing? Are they good? We still need our like, row days incident -free sign.

One of them jumped off the bed and twisted his ankle the other day, but like no ER visits, so that's always. Okay, good. Good for the week. Okay, so you said, you know, we also could go into the kind of the same version of the negative cycle just over something like houseplants.

And I really want to know if that's happened, you know, lately or if you could kind of paint me a picture of when that's happened, because I think that's important to really see that like, Underneath the details are a lot of the same emotional issues and unmet attachment needs that we haven't yet known how to talk about So Drew you have a smile on your face So I was just recalling the houseplant episode so well that that's why I Thought the smile was like yeah, I can really relate to this. So well, it's it's so funny because you know, I I really want Like Drew, make sure that you understand the success and just how impactful and how meaningful all of that is and just like hold space for that and not detract from that in any way. But I'm thinking of it had to be maybe a day or two days just very recent after our last session ended. And we had really, I'm going to interrupt you for just a second.

Did you see how fast you go into kind of protecting him? Yeah. From being triggered. Yeah.

Like, it even safe for me to kind of bring this up? Did something come up right there? No, I think it's just a pattern, just a habit. when you come in and say, and again, there's nothing wrong with it.

I just like to look at everywhere these things are showing up. Like you jumping in is telling me that maybe there's a little worry there. Like how might this land on him if I bring up something that Yeah. Negative.

I don't want all the good progress to go away. Okay. Okay. So if I, so there, maybe is a, like a belief that if I bring up something that went wrong, he's going to give up or we'll lose.

What might happen? Yeah. I guess I hadn't thought of it until we're putting words to it now, but. Okay.

Julie jumping in here. So some of you might relate to this to feeling like you know, walking on eggshells in your relationship. And both Melissa and Drew do this from time to time. And I'll explain, you know, they do it for for slightly different reasons here.

And I'll start by explaining something about the anxious avoidant dynamic. So the anxious avoidant dynamic is fighting for emotional balance. That's why it exists to begin with. It's a second best version of emotional balance as opposed to you know, to people who feel very secure, they don't have to create this rigid anxious avoidant balance.

But anyway, the anxious partner is outwardly expressing all the feelings in the relationship, but in this big reactive way that, you know, often doesn't work while the avoidant partner is kind of holding it all and containing all the feelings. But in this very disengaged way, that also doesn't work. And so the anxious partner is kind of frantically trying to close the emotional distance. And that franticness is pretty obvious usually.

But the avoidant partner is frantically trying to keep things emotionally stable. But the franticness isn't obvious. It's there. It's like a duck that looks like it's just calmly floating along the water, but underneath the surface, its feet are going 90 miles an hour.

So circling back here, my point is that both anxious partners and avoidant partners will scan each other and we'll walk on eggshells. But for different reasons, anxious partners, the partners who are quote unquote tasked with closing the emotional distance, get overly careful because they don't want to push the avoidant partner farther away. The last thing they want is more distance. And this is exactly what Melissa is doing here.

And avoidant partners on the other hand, these are the partners that are quote unquote tasked with maintaining the status quo. Don't rock the boat. Don't get overly careful, or I'm sorry, get overly careful because they want to avoid conflict. Again, both are protecting the relationship in their own way.

And I'm catching this in the moment here with Melissa because I'm helping us all bring awareness to it. Why? Because won't it be nice when neither of them have to be so careful? When all of this tiptoeing and being careful doesn't ultimately end up creating negative cycles, when they can't hold it in anymore.

So let's shine some light on this. I think that is a habit that comes maybe from that fear. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that.

Like what's coming up in your body just right now as we put some words to it. Yeah, that kind of does happen. I do get a little worried that bringing up a problem might set us I think it's just fear based. It's so nice to have, you know, like a week or two or however long where we're in a really good place and I you know, up controversial things.

There's just places you don't want to go back to. They're hard. So is it like if we open that up, we might start reliving some of those feelings and then it's going to put us into a yucky spot? I don't know if my mind has that whole entire thought process.

I think it's just a subconscious, like every time I'm bringing up something controversial, like I want to make sure we're, I don't know. I don't know. I've never really thought about it. Well, right.

And when you say, don't know, what we're doing, and this is really important piece of this work, is we're putting what's implicit in your body. It just showed up so fast right here and now. When I asked about the houseplant, we're trying to kind of put some words to that. So that can help you guys do different things with it outside of here, have more, for one, just have more awareness.

And so what I always do is I look at how it shows up in here, and then we talk Well, how might it show up outside of here? And so I'm just trying to understand, you know, let's do this. You know, always, when we're having a hard time putting words to stuff, the first place, as you know, like to start is checking in with your body. So just right here and now, as you think about bringing up something controversial, like what happens inside, where does that sit with you, that fear?

think it's just tightness in the chest. So can we just kind of linger with that? Okay, so Julie jumping in here, just reminding you that this work isn't successful if they don't learn to really sit with their emotions. So when I say things like linger, that's what I'm meaning, sitting with their emotions, really making space for the felt sense.

And when it comes to emotional work, if we aren't getting into the body and accessing the emotions, you know, in the somatic sense, the physical sense, where they sit in your body. We aren't doing emotional work. We're just doing emotionally conceptual work. We're talking about emotions, but not feeling into them and really getting comfortable with them so we don't have to keep running away from them or trying to chase them away.

And if I don't teach them to access and make space for and listen to what these places have to say, it's unlikely that new behaviors will stick or will stick as well or will stick without so much effort. Because we would just be ignoring what is underlying the behaviors. And there's so much underlying these behaviors as you're learning. These threatening meanings that they make of each other's behaviors and their childhood stuff that we're still needing to talk about as we go, that's definitely getting triggered in moments.

And the wounds they have built up between them that get touched. But even all of that stuff is just information without the emotions being felt alongside the words that we're using to describe this inner experience. And this is the place that you're used to just, you know, it kind of flares up and then you go into damage control. Yeah.

So what is that tightness afraid of? getting it wrong, being alone, just everything that's hard in those moments. Okay. So something about, is it because you know, you might push him away, that's how you'll end up alone?

Yeah. Okay. All right, let's just kind of hold there. Let that simmer a bit.

This feeling in your body, it's really tight and scared. And what it's saying is, If I put too much out there, it's going to push them away and then I'm going to be back to square one alone. Yeah. What is it like?

know, what comes up as we get really clear about that? It's like weirdly relieving to put words to it, but also hard to just acknowledge that it's not just a habit, but it's actual meaning behind it. Yeah. Underneath that pressure is kind of a lot of pain.

What would it be like to do all this great work and get to this better spot for a couple weeks and then bam, go back to square one? What would that be It's pretty bad, right? That's like the worst place. That's what we're here doing is to not have to go back to that place.

So it makes a lot of sense to me that your body's going to do what it needs to do to protect from going there, to protect you, to protect Drew, to protect the relationship, to protect your family. I look how hard that part of your body is fighting for you and the ones you love. Yeah. That just shows how much this all means to And so this feeling wells up inside of you.

And then let's put words to what you do right there. What's your urge when this fear, no, if I put too much out there, it's gonna push them away. We're gonna go to a bad spot. Then what do you wanna do?

That's when you wanna kinda jump in and front load it. Yeah, it's like reading the room, Mm -hmm. Is it a good time? Is he busy?

You know, do I need to dish out a bunch of compliments first? Do I need to make it interesting? Do I need to say it the right way? That sounds exhausting.

Yeah. So this isn't the place that you're used to putting words to. You're used to just going right into that damage control place. Yeah.

Yeah. And so what about putting some words to it right now and just sharing it with Drew? But I do get really scared if I say anything negative, then I'm going to end up feeling alone. And that's when I kind of go into that damage control mode, or whatever feels right for you.

I think typically, Drew has not had... successful connection in this part of being vulnerable, we've had the most connection in just problem solving. And this is really hard to I just, you know, it's scary to feel like if I am just vulnerable then, and it's not well received, then what? And I don't want to go back to how that was.

and then it's very exhausting. Beautiful. And how does it feel to be clear with him? Hard, but good.

Yeah. Well, I noticed just now for the first time, you took a breath All the while I was processing with you, could just see you holding so tight up in here. And so that breath tells me that there is something relaxing about just maybe just speaking your truth or being clear with yourself and with Drew, right? Yeah, it's like setting free something you didn't even know it needed to get out.

Yeah. That's why we're here, so I can help you release this stuff. And Drew, how is it for you, you know, maybe your body picks up when she's in that place of trying to kind of package it up right. What is it like for you to hear her put some words and kind of be more clear about what happens with her?

I mean, it's very helpful for me to understand how she feels. Obviously, you know, I want to understand how I can be helpful in those situations, but also be able to effectively communicate with her as well so we can kind of work through whatever the situation is. yeah, I think it's a good thing to hear that. OK.

All right, yeah, Let me, do you mind if I kind of dive in more with you, Drew? And I would like to understand, first of all, thank you, Melissa, for that. That was really helpful. I know we started out talking about this incident that happened a couple of weeks ago, but now we're kind of, I saw the cycle come alive right in front of me.

So do you mind if we just keep going forward with this? Yeah. OK. So Drew, what is that like for you to hear her say, You know, I do feel like I need to package things up nicely.

Does that, you know, is that kind of triggering for you? Like, I don't know, I'm just kind of, you tell me if I'm wrong, but like, that makes you the bad guy or? I mean, I would prefer just to have a very, you know, informal conversation about it. I don't want there to be anxiety or pressure around having to package up, you know, a particular set of words because of fear.

that it's going to come across the wrong way or that I'll misinterpret it. Obviously, want communication to flow very freely between the two of us. And if something's on... on our minds, we should just be able to pull each other aside and sit down and just kind of start to talk about it.

Not make it into like a big production or something that it's not, I suppose, is kind of where my head's at. So you do notice maybe that when she's in this place, or just actually, let's just talk about how it happened right now whenever she starts talking about the houseplants, right? And she says, well, Just first of all, I just want to highlight all of the things that have gone well. Did you pick up on that, that, this is her trying to not trigger me?

I don't know if I necessarily picked up on that per se, yeah, it's what could be wrong. It's nice to hear those words. think it's very helpful, especially for how we want to move forward. I think what comes up for me You know, kind of when I think back at kind of the maybe like past approaches and how we've taken on these types of situations and it's like, you know, we're talking about this theme of like having a package, things in a way to make sure that, you know, it's not triggering in nature.

But to me, it's, I guess the, I guess where I get a little exhausted is like when It has been packaged in the past. It comes across as like, every time we get together to speak, it's like a big formal deal. Versus it being just more like casual conversation where it's like, hey, I want to cut this off now. it's like, stop what you're doing.

We're going to sit down. We're going to have this long dialogue with each other. And sometimes, Yeah, I mean, that's welcoming. And other times, it's like we're trying to get a bunch of stuff done.

We're in a hurry, you know, getting home from work. And it's like, you know, just don't catch us off guard, I suppose. OK, so you sometimes you want to just relax or have less of an intense conversation. And she's in a different spot.

And she's wanting to kind of sit down and link at length process something. And that doesn't always work for you. Yeah, I think so. I would say that's accurate just simply because, mean, we've even spoken in the last, you know, probably month or two where it's like, hey, I understand that like, you know, we need to speak about this, but like, I think our heads are just in different spots right now.

You know, we're just, trying to get a bunch of stuff done or vice versa. know, it's like, it's kind of just timing, I suppose. Yeah, there's a lot to be said for timing. And we definitely, a lot of what I have to teach couples to do is work on their timing.

And so we'll talk more about that, but you said something important there that I wanted to kind of keep going with. What was it? when did this happen last? if you could just kind of paint me a picture.

was going to recall the incident about the cars on the patio and that conversation. That was probably the trickiest one. So tell me about the cars on the patio. That's what we'll name this episode, the cars on the patio.

cars on the patio. Now, do you want to say it? Yeah. No, you have to jog my memory on this one.

So, okay, from my perspective, it was like two days after the session, we're outside, the kids are playing, they've got their plastic little Tykes cars that they're riding in on the patio. And I was under the impression that we were having a relaxing evening, Drew got triggered for whatever reason. was mess, too many toys, stains were being made on the patio. His reaction was bigger than I expected.

He got frustrated with, you know, the toys, the kids, the time of day, the end of the workday, just kind of everything piling up. And it just kind of kept building and building and building. Then we're trying to get the kids to dinner. Everybody's crying.

We're yelling at each other in front of the kids. And I think my mind was in a place of like, okay, let's try, you know, we just had spoken so much in our session about validating. And I think the response I got from you was like, okay, fine, there I validated you. The whole thing was just so unsuccessful and frustrating.

And I think it left me feeling like I'm so in tune with what I'm feeling and with what I'm needing and I'm so lost. What are you feeling? What's happening for you? Why are you upset?

are you detaching? Like, what's going on for you and why? And I can't get any grasp on that. And as much as I can get a grasp on what's going on for myself, and I guess that's my lens of that incident.

I don't know what yours is. Because we didn't really settle that out very well. All right. Well, let me, first of all, I just appreciate that you guys were putting in the effort to do something new.

That's where this all this starts and it doesn't surprise me at all when we put new things into practice and they don't always work out. So good job. We're just fine tuning. So let me check in over here with you, Drew.

Like what was going on? It sounds like that was, there was a lot in that moment with the boys and the patio and the stains and sounds pretty important. It must've been end of the day. I think it's, you you're trying Come home and I think there was just, it was a lot of commotion, a lot of chaos, which is pretty typical, but for whatever reason, I mean, I don't know the particulars about that day, but obviously it might've been just tough at work and coming home is just a place of safety and where you just wanna kind of unwind a bit and came home and kind of matched chaos from the day with more chaos.

here and for whatever reason, I don't know, maybe just the disorder and the kids just act in ornery and just kind of triggered me, I suppose. Yeah. So what is that like for you? You're at work and you've got all this chaos to deal with at work and you come home and you see, a part of you is it's easy to say kids are going to be kids.

I get that, right? But then this other part of you, something kind of distressing happens. Yeah, I don't know what, I can't recall the particulars of the day exactly as to like what was going on. Let's just try to, you know, just maybe close your eyes and imagine those moments, right?

And you know, we all have this fantasy, you're not alone, of coming home and it's a peaceful environment and the kids run up and give you a big hug and... You know, everything's all calm and in order and instead you get home to chaos and toddlers and stains on the porch. I don't even know what a stain on the porch is, but it sounds pretty bad. And like, what does happen in you right there?

That's hard. I mean, it is, it's just hard. I think I just, cuts against the grain a bit. Okay, Julie jumping in here again.

like the work I was doing with Melissa, I also have to teach Drew how to stay in his body. And it's definitely going to be harder for him because the avoidant attachment part of him says push the bad feelings away. And of course, when they're pushed away, they're harder to find and harder to find them makes them harder to feel them. And on top of that, when we do get them up and feeling them, then everything in his wiring says, move away from this, escape this.

So I need him to understand here that it's not actually the chaos around him that's bothering him in this moment he's describing at home with the family. The chaos is just what's triggering the pain. The problem. for him is what the chaos brings up in his body, the tension, the pressure, the uncomfortable sensations.

The chaos wouldn't be a problem if it weren't bringing up these yucky feelings inside of him. And to him, the chaos represents being out of control, bad things happening, and then the fear of those bad things happening, the fear of how he will feel if all those bad things happen, those catastrophized fears. if all those come true, that this is all happening in his body in these moments. And so, you know, this is what's bothering him.

And then on top of that, he can't get out of it. He can't get out of it when he's home with his family. He gets stuck in it. And that's so frustrating for him to not be able to get out of it.

And so I'm helping him learn how to get out in a way that doesn't leave him shutting out everything around him. the things he doesn't want to shout out the most, his wife and his family, and then frantically trying to make the trigger go away by picking up the house. the only way I can help him with that is to get him into his body. And I just want to say also, it's not bad to pick up the house.

That's adaptive. That's healthy. That does help minimize the chaos. And that's an adaptive thing to do.

And the healthier version of Drew will still pick up the house, but it won't be so pressured. and accompanied by that place he goes that leaves Melissa hurting and left in the dark. So as I do this work with him, I want you to notice how he leaves his body often and goes right into his head to this fix -it place. And often his strategy to regulate these feelings is kind of saying to himself, it's not conscious, but I'll just conveniently change my perspective and then it will be okay.

Then we'll be And in this environment, in the therapy and where it's relatively safe and at work for him and at lots of other times in his life, going into his head does work for him. He can change his perspective and look at the bright side and look at what's working. And that works for him in some moments, but it doesn't work when he gets home and everything is happening too fast. The trigger is too big and so fast and his resources are low.

and his strategy just doesn't work then. And then if all that isn't bad enough, he has no idea how to help himself with all of this stuff. And now he's being asked in life, in this relationship, to know how to help Melissa with her stuff. And if he doesn't know how to help himself in these places, how on earth is he going to help her?

So he's trying with her the strategies that he tries with himself. And where I'm ultimately going with all this is getting them to the place where when all of this wells up in him, when he can do something new, he can regulate himself in a new way, talk about what's going on with himself, self -soothe, and even better, the gold standard, get support from Melissa instead of pushing her out. And when he can do this, how much better is he going to be at showing up for her when she's in need too? And when we get through all of this, we will get to a place where they can finally start better showing up for each other and meeting each other's attachment needs in these toughest of moments.

You know, I guess I was always raised to, you know, just take care of the things that you have and, I know, I can't, again, it's hard for me to recall what day that was, but something must have happened. don't know, maybe the kids, like to, we have like a tiered patio, so they like to launch the cars down the patio and they just fly and kind of fall over. And it's kind of like, that's a little frustrating. So we have lots of days like that where there's lots of messes.

So pick any day, any mess, food on the floor. cars in the rec room, mean, any of those times would pick any time. Yeah, so it doesn't really matter the details. It's anything that is not, you know, what's the theme here, Drew, of it's not just the cars being thrown down the porch.

It's, is it like not taking care of property, not being responsible? I mean, you know, the boys are two. I don't think they're a little young to learn responsibility per se, but I think it's just, you know, I don't like when the kids are that destructive to things. It's not something I want to teach them to do, but you know, know kids will be kids.

Don't get me wrong. But for me too, you know, it's, yeah, I Kind of like you like a orderly household. I would say I'm a little OCD when it comes to cleanliness. you know, just ever so slightly.

And I appreciate how much you look to Melissa, you know, when you're saying this stuff, there must be something kind of anxiety provoking about even putting words to this. Is there a part of you that thinks like, this is the wrong way to be I don't know if it's the wrong way to be. think it's, I need to enact maybe a little bit more patience because, you know, twin two -year -old boys and a six -year -old daughter, it's, you know, I don't, I don't want them to feel that same level of anxiety that I do when, you know, I know I need to run the sweeper or wipe something down or, you know, put things away. It's like I just, you know, I don't want that for them.

Yeah. So let's just say this. This stress around the step doesn't define you. There's this part of you that gets it, right, that can step back and go, hey, they're just kids.

This too shall pass. But then there's this other part that something really important comes up. You know, I always like to honor what that is and kind of learn more about So can we just maybe talk to that part, that part that does get stressed, that does get uncomfortable around Where does it show up inside of you when you see things getting destructive? It's definitely triggering.

mean, most definitely. think a big part of it is, like I said earlier about being able to come home and spend time with my family. It's a nice feeling. But Part of how I'm wired is it's hard for me to relax when there's so much disorder.

And I think that's just me personally, honestly. So anybody has a hard time, know, most people have a hard time relaxing when there's chaos going on all around them. That's what one of the hard things about having little kids. So what is that?

Like, where does that distress sit in you? Like even right now, is you just think about these moments where you want to come home and have it all peaceful, but instead, you know, the walls are coming down. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it You know, it's hard to think clearly, I suppose. When, you know, when I get triggered like that, causes me to get a little bit short and very irritated.

like that feeling in your body just takes over to the point that it's hard to con, it's hard, it's hard to concentrate on anything because it feels so big inside of you. Yeah. And I mean, I shut down. It's hard It's hard to communicate and I know Melissa can see that I'm, you know, visibly frustrated.

So that's what you do, right? What you do is you've just learned to shut it down. To just kind of go, go somewhere safe inside of you. That's, that's been the safe place for you.

I want to learn more about what you're staying safe from, which is something really important happening inside of you. You know, is that like a, is it in your chest? Is it in your head? Is it, where does discomfort lie?

Yeah, it's definitely in my head. Yeah, like I don't feel tightness in my chest or anything like that. It just kind of tends up in your mind, I suppose. And yeah, it just takes a few to recover from it.

So it's like a tense up in your head, like a pressure? Yeah, I'd say so. Okay. And then if we, you know, could put a word to that sensation, could we say like fear, frustration?

Yeah, I think it's more frustration than anything else. Suppose a part of it is, you know, you want just, I want better you know, the family when we engage and interact with each other as well. Again, it's things aren't where you want them to be. And again, there's a part of you that gets that this is a phase of life, right?

But there's this other part that gets frustrated and wants it to be different right then and there. And again, it's, you know, you guys aren't where you want to be. And you know, what's the impact of not being where you want to be? What does that mean for the night or what does that mean for the family if, you know, you were to just sort of stay in this chaos state indefinitely?

mean, I think I definitely think things have gotten better. I think it's been an adjustment with with the kids and kind of, you know, kind of move into that ordinary toddler stage. But I wouldn't say that, you know, maybe emotionally I'm definitely guilty of shutting down, certainly physically, I just kind of take action, start picking things up. I don't intend to be frustrated with anybody but myself, but I can understand how it definitely impacts those around me when I'm not the fun and kind of just laid back.

whatever this is in your head, this tension, this discomfort, it gets so big that it's really hard for you to just let it go and be laid back and comfortable. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, anybody has a hard time being laid back and comfortable when you're so uncomfortable, And so that discomfort just really takes over your body. And then what you've learned to do is just, that's when you go to that shutdown place.

And maybe shutdown is not talking, picking things Being short. Being short. And I would like to know, like, what happens if you don't shut down? What might happen?

Why is shutting down the safe place for you? I don't want to take it out on the kids and yell for them just playing, having fun. You know, I want them to play. I want them to enjoy.

I just don't want them to certainly be destructive by any means. So it's this frustrated feeling in your body. And if you don't just kind of push it underground, then it might come out in this big way. And that's not going to work, right?

No, it's not going to be productive. And so then you shut down to just keep everything OK and safe. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to adapt to the situation at hand. Yeah, and mean, if we have to choose between kind of pushing that away and yelling, probably pushing it away is the, I mean, that's the better option, right?

You know, I'm not saying that's the ideal option, but I'm just trying to show that there is some strength in we can figure out a different way to do it. But it is, you it shows how much you care about the wellbeing of your kids that you're willing to go to that length to not yell at them. You want to protect them. Yeah.

I mean, I want to teach them as well. Yeah. But then at the same time, you're, you've got this fire burning inside of you. You're not getting, you know, able to put words to that and get any comfort for And so you just shove it underground and, you know, Melissa just sees you being mad and grumpy.

Do you think she knows all the other stuff that's happening? I think she sees me being visibly upset or frustrated and she knows I'm not communicating and she wants to be helpful and asking, how can I help? How can I help? What do you think she doesn't see in those moments?

I don't think she sees the intensity of my day, the amount of stress from my job You know, like I said, kind of transitioning from, you know, a lot of just, know, mental exercise to, you know, come home and have that continue is something I'm trying to condition myself to be better at. But, you know, obviously I'm not perfect in that regard. Well, like I always say, we're getting, we're learning, right? But again, just what really stands out to me how much distress you're in.

have a, you your work is stressful, you build up a lot of stress there, and then you come into another environment where you don't really feel like you, things are the way that you want to be, want them to be, and you can't make that happen. And then you get frustrated with yourself and frustrated with the kids, and that energy builds up on top of the energy that's already there. I mean, that's a lot to deal with. Your body's trying to process a lot of emotion, and it's, distressing, it's painful.

And so when you say, don't think she sees, you know, what I come home with, if we just put some more words to that, it's really at the end of the day, just a lot of really painful feelings that you're trying to cope with. So what she sees is she sees you just pulling away and being in a bad mood, but really, you're really struggling emotionally just to cope. Does that feel feels right. Yeah.

Can you share that with her? you know, in those moments when you see me shutting down, it's because I'm trying so hard to cope with a lot of pain inside of me in these moments. Yeah, I think it's a struggle for me to kind of manage some of my emotions when, you know, I have had a really, really stressful or pretty intense day. depending on what's going on and, you know, coming home say that most days are okay and good but there are some days that I just I really struggle.

And I'm definitely learning how to manage it better, but I have some work to do. I don't necessarily think it defines who I am or how I feel about you or the kids. I think it's just something that I'm adjusting to. And so how is it right now to put more words to it just be more clear?

And again, we're just trying to understand what's really happening in these negative cycles when she just sees you getting grumpy and shutting down, and you just see her getting mad and yelling or whatever happens, know, whichever version of the cycle it's in. Like, what is that like to get more clear? is a step in the right direction. I know I have some work to do, It's nice to get it out in the air.

it feel different inside of your body? It's unusual to be this vulnerable. I would say it's an uncommon, uncommon thing. Yeah.

You're used to just putting it away. That's what's been safe forever for you. And now we're going to find some safety in other options. Because sometimes we do have to put it away.

but sometimes there's a better option. And Melissa, how is it for you to hear more? I think it's just a relief. I think it's just nice to hear words to it.

I think It also might just take me some time to process a whole wealth of emotions. Like, I feel a lot of empathy and gratitude that you And I'm sad that you're experiencing so much and almost like I see the protective nature of you're trying to shield our family from that and take care of us in that way. And then at the same time, I also feel like, well, I too have a lot in my day and I think we're missing an opportunity to go through that experience together and to really share that and... I'm going to slow you down here.

You're not doing anything wrong, but this is where kind of that timing piece comes in. Yeah. Right? Where it's so easy to kind of get triggered by what the other partner says when they're sharing their experience.

And part of you can take that in and hold that, but this other part of you gets triggered and says, understandably, well, what about me? I get so stressed out too, and then I feel alone. And so I want to make space for that. Yeah.

And we will make space for that. But right now, I want to try something new, and it's just sort of kind of stay with him and linger with him. Yeah, I mean, it's really nice to hear. I think we all feel that tension and worry and sadness for you because we want to take care of you and help you.

And we know there's something more going on. And we don't want you to do it by yourself. And so as much as it's like I have empathy and love for you, I appreciate that you're protecting all of us and shielding us from so many big chaotic things that are happening for you, but you know, we also want the opportunity be with you in that. All right, let me let me.

Let me go back over here to you, Drew, for a minute. I'm wondering if this might be a moment where you get vulnerable, you get a response that's kind of like, yeah, that feels really good, but dot, dot, dot. No, think emotionally it just feels a little uncharted. It's like standing up in a boat.

You're either going to regain your balance or not. I guess what I'm noticing is that you just got really vulnerable, right? And Melissa did take it in. Melissa, you didn't do anything wrong.

This is just what we're working on here. This is that issue of timing. And her response to your vulnerability was, yeah, I get that you're distressed, but so am I. Does that happen outside of here?

I think so. Thinking past conversations, you know, if I come home and I say, it's really been a tough day. I think that, you know, sometime that's met with, well, I also had a hard day. You know, asking about my day.

Okay. You know, I think that's definitely come up in last few months, quite a few times. Okay, Julie jumping in here. So this little version of a cycle is a stuck place I call who gets to hurt worse, where neither partner can get the support they need, because if they talk about it, it triggers the other partner, and now they don't get the support they need, and back and forth they go.

And this is where timing is really important, and that's why I keep redirecting it back. Okay. And so then you guys kind of start going back and forth, and it feels like you, no one's helping each other because you're both. You're saying I have a bad day and then Melissa, you're saying, I have a bad day and what do you do in that situation, Drew?

Through some, I guess, mental exhaustion. you know, walk me through kind of your day and why was it frustrating? Part of it is, you know, I want to understand, but I don't think the approach I take is probably genuine in nature. It's You know, I'm frustrated and I'm being short.

Okay, Julie here. I'm not sure if you're picking up on how often in our sessions, Drew talks about how he's getting it wrong. And I'm so glad that he sees his part in the cycle. That's absolutely necessary for our work to be successful.

But the way that he keeps going to this place where he mentions he could have done it better or he will do it better or he didn't get it right. This is his hit one of his protections and his safety again, this kind of revolves around his safety and fixing the problem. And this part of him that is constantly telling him he's wrong. It is more than just I have a part here and I need to own my part.

This is actually his shame. And we're going to talk a lot about more about this as we go. But this shame is here because it's been his motivation in his do better. It's not a good motivator, it's actually demoralizing and causes him to hide himself and ultimately in the context of relationships especially does not work because we can't connect if we're hiding and again shame says hide.

But this is what he's known and again we're going to do some work around that as we go but first understanding why it's needed to be here. That's the first thing we're going to do and then eventually we're going to need to start confronting that shame. Okay, well, so if I just map this out, you you come home and we're trying to get to this new place, right, where you can not have to hold on to all these feelings by yourself and same with Melissa, doesn't have to hold on to all these feelings by herself but... just stick with you, because that's who working with right now.

Again, I like to work with one at a time, try to understand each of your experiences, because they both matter and you both deserve to be heard. So you might show up and say, hey, my day was really hard, or put words to your distress. But what you get back is, well, my day was bad too. then, My guess is, is that's when you go back into your move of we'll stuff my stuff away and we'll just deal with her stuff.

And so in that sense, you're, again, we have another good reason why it's safer to put your stuff away because what if you don't? Yeah, I mean, know that I'm just perceived as selfish and, you know, I don't care about. what she went through today. I only care about myself and I don't want that.

Okay. So that's the message that you're going to get is, you know, if I keep going with my stuff, I'm going to be selfish. I'm going to be XYZ, you know, this jerk. And that's the last thing you want to So again, you put your distress to the side, but when does that get helped?

When do you get help with that? Just compartmentalize it and... Yeah. And then it might come out as just grumpiness.

I mean, it just wears on you. And what's it like to put words to it right now? I don't know. It's the least I I ever have before.

So, I it feels real. So genuine thoughts and that feels good. Feels good to put some acknowledgement, give it some acknowledgement. So maybe what you're hoping to hear in those moments is like, my gosh, just some soothing, some comfort around that.

Tell me more about the hard day, just some space to put some words to your feelings. Which for one, we're getting better at doing that, but. What we're also learning is that part of this negative cycle is that even if you do try to put words to those feelings, something important comes up for Melissa. And I want to understand more about that.

She gets maybe triggered by that, and she sort of takes the mic. And then what your go -to is, well, OK, I'm just going to stuff my stuff aside and show up for her. But then that energy, you end up not getting help. Yeah, I I would say that's it.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could find a way that both of you get some help? Because both of you have really good reasons to be stressed at the end of the day. You know, we all have good reasons to be stressed at the end of the day, but when you have three kids who are six and under and you're trying to, you know, take just keep your heads above water kind of right now, then there's even more good reason. And so maybe what would be helpful for Melissa to hear right now is, yeah, I mean, I could use some help too.

I'd like to get to that point with you where we can help each other. Yeah, I think I really do want to get out of this cycle and I want to be supportive of you and you supportive of me when we find ourselves falling into Because me shutting down is my way of wanting to be there for you and not burden you with anything that I'm dealing with. I know that's also not healthy. Melissa, how is it to hear him be clear about that?

I think that it would feel so... Good, and I think maybe of Not that I want to go back to the beginning of our relationship because we've learned so much, but I think of that time when we shared so much so freely. And I think it would feel so good to not, to take the burden off of myself of always front loading and worrying and guiding and to hear more from you. and to have the opportunity to help you instead of you shutting down.

I think it would feel good for you and for me. I would love to be there for you and I think it would feel really good for both of us. We just did it, you know. What happened is we were kind of processing with you understanding more about what happens when he comes home and he gets very distressed and He was sharing that with you.

And then, and I want to understand more about this because there's something important that happens. then you say, Hey, I really want to be there for you. But then your body gets triggered and says, but also I need you to be there for me because you've been feeling really alone too. Right.

But then what Drew gets the messages is that, well, forget about it. I got to put my stuff to the side and so I can be there for But then the problem with that is that Drew doesn't end up getting help with what's going on with him. And he has a role in that. And then Melissa, you don't get the opportunity to help him.

Yeah. And then that just contributes to kind of the loneliness that you both feel a lot of the time. Yeah. And again, wouldn't it be nice if when, I'm going to say when, you guys learn, won't it be nice when you guys learn to hold space for all of it?

in these hard moments. And I think, you know, some of it is going to be about timing. We both can be hurting at once, but we really need to stop and kind of take some time with each other one at a time. So just to kind of, you know, repaint the picture of the negative cycle.

And there's a couple of different ways the cycle shows up that we've talked about in this session, but this last round is, know, Melissa, you're exhausted with the kids from the day, and then Drew, you come home and you're exhausted from your stuff. you see the chaos and your body goes into that painful state. And you might try to say, well, I had a really hard day. And then Melissa, you're over here going, well, what about me?

I had a really hard day. And then that, so that kind of, you guys don't have the ability to kind of help each other in that moment. So Drew, what you do as your second best option is just kind of shut down and pull away and at least not contaminate the family with this frustration as best as you can. But then Melissa, you feel your body's picking up all of it and it feels terrible.

And so then you come in and you start saying, how can I help? How can I help? How can I help? And then you guys are just kind of in it, right?

Yeah, that's exactly it. Right. And so we're going to, you know, and here we just played it out in a different way where we just put some more words to how can we start, you know, talking a little bit more deeply. And maybe we don't need to do that right in the moment when stuff is going on, you know.

But maybe we can figure out a way to just sort of reach each other. in some small way that is appropriate for the situation and get on the same page and get on the same team emotionally, get through the night and then reconnect later or whatever. So that's what I want you to really try to work on this week is just see if we can do those evenings a little bit differently. I think I probably already said this to you guys, but we're buddies, right?

You can't really, the kids aren't gonna change right now. The circumstance, I mean, you know, they will grow. But the circumstances right now are the circumstances. So you're in this together.

Let's make you guys a team. I think we both want that. I think so too. Yeah.

All right. Well, we'll go ahead and stop there. Thank you guys. Thank you.

Yeah. So that brings us to the end of episode four. So to summarize what we did here, Both Melissa and Drew were able to see themselves more clearly, share more clearly, and understand more clearly. And this will show up outside of here.

Their brain wiring is shifting. They're learning about their feelings and finding vulnerable new words to use. They're doing the work. They're coming together.

And we're going to keep moving forward. And as usual, I do have two extra resources. I have homework which correspond to the work we did in this session, as well as those for past sessions. You can find those on my website, thesecurerelationship .com.

And of course, my book, Secure Love, by me, Julie Menanno, is the instruction manual for all of this work, as well as a primer on attachment theory in romantic relationships. All right, well, thank you, everyone. And especially thank you to Melissa and Drew. for being here with us and being vulnerable and doing this work and hopefully helping so many of you out there also go through this process and strengthen your relationships and your families and make your lives and the world a better place.

So, okay, thank you everybody. I'll see you next episode next week.

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