Take me Out to the Ballgame: Navigating Attachment Fears and Finding Co-Regulation
In this episode
After a chaotic minor-league baseball game, therapist Julie Menanno works with Drew and Melissa to unpack what really went wrong. Drew shares the panic and humiliation that make him check out and 'go dark,' driven by an avoidant fear of shame and failure. Melissa opens up about the crushing sense of failure and the desperate texts she sends when left alone with the kids. Julie helps them slow their triggers and keep breaking their negative cycle through co-regulation.
Key takeaways
- Drew’s checking out is an avoidant attempt to regulate panic and shame (‘humiliated,’ ‘a disappointment’), not indifference toward Melissa.
- Melissa’s urgent texts are anxious protest—a reach for connection rooted in a fear that nothing will be okay unless it’s fixed right now.
- Both partners regulate their nervous systems in opposite ways; slowing down triggers creates space for new responses.
- Understanding replaces blame—seeing the fear behind a partner’s behavior activates empathy.
- The goal is co-regulation: supporting each other emotionally so attachment needs come back online.
Read the full transcript
Hi everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast with me, your host and couples therapist, Julie Manano. And of course with our fantastic real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're jumping into episode two. To recap, Melissa and Drew have been married for 10 years and they have three young children. And not only are they struggling with all the conflict that comes along with living a life and sharing a family together, they're also having emotional problems between the two of them. And when things get really bad, they find themselves getting stuck in negative communication cycles, which keep them from resolving their problems and which as time goes by are even causing more negative feelings to build up between them. Using attachment theory terminology, we call this an insecure attachment. So some of you listeners might not relate to Melissa and Drew's exact circumstances. In fact, many of you probably don't. You might not be married or have children. You might not be a hetero couple or an American couple, or you might have life and relationship problems that are totally different from what Melissa and Drew struggle with on the surface. In short, you might not relate to them at all. But think about it like this. If you're in a romantic partnership with someone you love, and want to be close to, you probably do relate to wanting to feel things like being heard and understood, feeling valued, feeling respected and responded to. You might relate to needing to know your needs matter to your partner. And in my line of work, we call these attachment needs, those needs which need to be met in order to feel safe and close to your partner. You might have all the self -esteem in the world within yourself, but if you feel consistently misunderstood by your partner, it's going to be hard to feel safe and close to them and vice versa. And if you don't feel safe and close, and if they don't feel safe and close, the odds are very high that's going to show up as all sorts of problems, particularly communication problems, when you try to work through whatever your life circumstances are.
So my point is this, Melissa and Drew have life circumstances which are unique to them, and you have life circumstances that are unique to you. But this work is about something deeper. This work is about broader human relationship themes that we all can relate to. So the work I'm doing with Melissa and Drew is a type of couples therapy called emotionally focused therapy for couples. In EFT, we believe change happens when the couples resolve their emotional blocks both within themselves and between each other in order to find secure attachment. And by breaking through emotional blocks, we're going for change. We're going for new ways to communicate. And we need to end bad behaviors in relationships. But those of us who do EFT don't see a lot of value in simply telling people what to do or not to do or what to say. and not to say, and then just leaving it at that. What we found is that it's more effective to help people work through the emotional blocks, which are preventing them from doing the healthy thing to begin with. And when we began to remove the blocks, we start building up a healthier relationship environment, and change really starts to take on its own momentum. And I think you'll see that happen in our work with Melissa and Drew. Some of you listening might start out skeptical, like, where is all this talk about feelings going? And that logic makes a lot of sense because there's no usefulness in talking about feelings if it doesn't get us anywhere. But if you stick around, you're going to see that real change doesn't come from a place of force or simply knowing intellectually what you should do differently. Real change actually comes from a place of empathy, understanding of yourself and of your partner, and from wisdom. and from love. And so my job as a couples therapist is to maximize those elements as a means to making new behaviors stick. And that brings us to where we are now. So Melissa and Drew are early in the first phase of the therapy where we're starting to better understand how their negative cycle, which we'll talk more about here in a minute.
plays out and more about their vulnerabilities and insecurities underneath the surface. So they can learn to access those places and speak from those places and better help themselves with their feelings and better help each other when all of their feelings get triggered instead of going into these negative cycles. So just to put it out there, I don't want Melissa and Drew to have to walk around talking about their feelings with each other all the time. That would be a very heavy way. I just need them to know how, when those places get triggered, and they need to get themselves out of painful situations without fighting, and instead by connecting with each other and then moving on with life or whatever situation they're in. So we did some of this work last week when Melissa and Drew were able to share more deeply about their experience during a tense negative cycle during a hospital visit for one of their twin boys. The success in the session last week is that when Melissa and Drew were able to talk about the event with more emotional clarity, they were able to better understand and empathize with each other. And that ended up being a very co -regulating experience for them at the end of the session. By co -regulating, I mean they were able to interact in a way that was calming for each other's nervous systems. And this is important because If they would have instead spent the session either talking about the incident like they normally do or talking about it from a very heady intellectual place, most likely they would have found their way right back into the negative cycle. So the more we practice new ways of communicating in the session, the more naturally it will come to them outside of the sessions. But notice how I'm not just giving them new words. I'm first helping them feel into those new words so that they're real and authentic. Sometimes communication advice for couples is just words and it doesn't teach couples how to feel into the words. So it can just end up sounding like canned responses. So that's why I spend so much time with each of them before I have them share with each other so that we really get the felt experience, which is the heart of the message.
attached to their words. So we're back this week to continue on with our early work with Melissa and Drew. This week, they took the family to a baseball game and things really fell apart for them and they ended up in their negative cycle. And so today I'm going to work with Drew to help him better understand why he's needing to check out when he feels emotionally overwhelmed and in his words, out of control. Why is checking out? shutting down emotionally, a safe way for him to regulate his own feelings, which is an avoidant behavior. And the work with Melissa is going to go in a few different directions, including we're gonna start kind of touching on her own doubts about her self -worth. And we're going to end up understanding more about why when all this pain is welled up inside of her, she goes into this place where she kind of frantically wants to resolve problems right then and there, which is an anxious attachment behavior. And then at the end, I'll summarize how all of this interacts in a way that comes together and creates their negative cycles. All right, well, how's everything going? Good. Okay. It's Monday. Yeah, it's Monday. Any updates on the two of you or any noticing any kind of staying out of that negative cycle that maybe you would have gotten sucked into? For any negative cycle that we can talk about did happen. Yeah, I would say definitely it's maybe more so being aware of it as it's happening. Our weekends tend to be maybe the heaviest hitting. Like during the week we're busy with work and just routines on the weekend. It's much more heavy hitting with all the family activities. Yeah.
Absolutely. And so we've talked about that where sometimes Melissa, you start to sort of feel like you're on your own and Drew, you have your own stuff to kind of keep up with, but it feels, it can feel Melissa for you, like your two ships passing in the night. And then you start to have this tension build up and then you try not to say anything because you want to protect him, but then it ends up coming out. And then Drew, you kind of pull away and then Melissa. You sense that he's pulled away and then you guys are in this place of tension. Is that, can we all agree that's how the cycle plays out? Yeah. And I, you know, I was even reflecting on our session last time and this is something that I shared with Drew. You know, you were asking like, do you ever get angry? And I, my initial response was no, no, no, I'm never angry. And you know, the more that you think about it and pay attention to it. you know, it was, I kind of felt two things after that last session. Like I felt so grateful to hear Drew opening up and just sharing those really vulnerable feelings about wanting to, you know, take care of our family and our kids and, and take care of me. But then as I paid more attention to my thoughts and feelings, I noticed, you know, like, I'm really angry. I feel really frustrated, you know, because over these last couple of years, I think I know what it's like to be loved and taken care of by him, but I don't feel connected and loved and taken care of. And a lot of times I end up feeling like, well, where are you when I need you the most? Whether it's something big, like we're in the ICU with our son, or whether it's something small, like we're at this weekend family activity and you're just, you know, checking out because the kids are being challenging. So whether it's any end of the spectrum, I'm feeling so frustrated. Like I want to partner with you and, and do this with you. and you know, feel taken care of by you and loved and connected and I'm not, and I'm not sure how to access you. And I don't know if that excuses my, you know,
pestering behaviors, but I'm maybe starting to understand my own self a little better in that way. Okay, so Julie jumping in here, you may have noticed that Melissa has mentioned a couple of times about some past wounds between the two of them. Times when she felt really alone with really big stuff, and she's also mentioned that they used to feel much closer in the relationship. So, What this means is that they have some attachment wounds built up between them. So what is an attachment wound? Well, first, let me tell you what an attachment rupture is. An attachment rupture is something relatively easy to repair. You snap at your partner and they feel kind of attacked and hurt and you catch yourself and apologize and everyone feels safe and close again. Attachment wounds, on the other hand, are much bigger. They really shake up trust and closeness. They have a profound impact, a lasting impact on the relationship. They usually involve a betrayal of some sort, feeling very, very dropped in a moment when partners needed each other the most. Wounds can happen also from repeated unhealed ruptures, small things that just build up to the point that trust and safety is just seriously eroded. And then on top of that, we have another layer, which is all of the stuff each partner brings to the relationship from their childhood and other past impactful relationships. The stuff that really affected their emotional health and their beliefs about themselves. And all this plays a role in relationship problems too, including here with Melissa and Drew. So what do we do with all of this? Well, That's why we have 20 sessions. We have a lot to sort through, and we will. In good time, we're going to get to all of it. But for now, we're focusing on the first layer of this work, which is, again, understanding and stabilizing their negative cycle. And the more we do that, you'll see that things gradually move toward their deeper issues. OK, beautiful. So I do want, you know, I am curious when you say, you know, look,
I know what it feels like to be loved and cared for by Drew. And some things happened in the last two years since the kids were born. And now is the time I need him the most. Now is the time when what I'm hoping for is that he shows up more than ever and that's not happening. And I am carrying around this anger around that, which again, like we talked last week, that anger has something important to say. That's your body's way of saying something doesn't feel right here. and your way, that's the motivation. Let's fix this. Let's hear me, work with me here, right? We know the anger, kind of communicating from that anger and not learning healthy ways to deal with that isn't really working, but we're gonna figure that out. But we wanna honor the, what I would say, the function of that anger. And that's felt better for you? Am I getting that right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And at the same time, I'm really kind of curious about what did shift between feeling loved and cared for and then now kind of going backwards on that. And so I'm gonna work more on that. Right now I wanna check in, Drew, do you mind if I check in with Drew and just see what's coming up for him? What is coming up for you, Drew, as she talks about her feelings of maybe not feeling as cared for and loved in the past couple of years as she would hope for. Yeah, I mean, I think it's been nice to open up and kind of hear from you a little bit more. But yeah, I've definitely noticed some frustration and, you know, probably some anger over the last probably week or two since we last met. You know, I wouldn't say like caught me off guard or anything, but, you know, just trying to be obviously supportive. And maybe my responses aren't exactly always what you're looking for, but...
I think it's just - So can you give me, can you maybe give me an example, like kind of talk to me right now. Can you give me an example of a moment this week where you sense she's angry? Yeah, I mean, you know, we took our kids to, took our kids to like a minor league baseball game and, you know, there were a lot of people around. We had probably, she's our three kids and two other kids that were there that were cousins and - had some family there and everything. And we're like in the front row of the stadium and the kids are just being kids. It's packed house and I started to feel pretty anxious just with all the people kind of all around you and not really having control of the situation or kids are just kind of screaming or I want this and that. And I think it's just, it's a moment of panic for me. I had to kind of take a step back and kind of get out of my seat and walk up to the concourse area. And I think it just felt like it was tough to kind of manage that, at least in the moment. And I know that I sensed a lot of frustration, obviously, from Alyssa, just like, hey, what's going on? I'm down here with the kids. And I went up initially to get food. It was kind of like a perfect storm, waited in line and found out they didn't sell the right food. You know, finally came back like half hour later, because I mean, just kind of trying to figure out what to bring for them. And, you know, obviously we just, Mel and I just didn't communicate. And, you know, I think it led to a lot more, a lot of, a lot of frustration on both of our parts. But. Okay. So you're, you're feeling anxious about lots of people being around the kids are being kids and like, what was coming up for you? Was it? You said you started to panic. Tell me more about that panic. Yeah, I just kind of felt claustrophobic and just had to get up and get out of the get out of there. You know, initially we took our kids with us, but, you know, of course took them out of that, took them out of way from the game and they started melting down and I think it just exasperated and made things a little bit worse. But yeah, I mean, I definitely felt I just went into panic and I didn't communicate very well, but
And I can definitely tell that Mel and I are definitely, we're just not on the same page. But something happened for you that sounds pretty important to me. Like your body started to go to a really uncomfortable place when all of this stuff is going on around you. Yeah, I mean, I felt my blood pressure up. I was breathing quick, I was sweating, just very uncomfortable and just had to try to recalibrate a little bit and was kind of not a good attempt. at doing so because at a simple point I just kind of like froze up a little bit and didn't communicate well and that kind of led to a little bit of a little bit of disagreement between the two of us. And did it, you know, just as you put words to this right now, just the panic that you felt, do you feel some of it coming up right now? Yeah, maybe a little. It's a little unresolved, I suppose, most definitely. So if we just kind of linger in that and. You know, again, we're not used to wanting to stay in that place of panic. It feels bad, but maybe we could linger in it and listen to what it has to say. Yeah. So would you be willing to just kind of close your eyes and do you notice it right now? You know, just any of that tension?
possibly a little bit. I mean, I think it was very situational for me. It was easier to feel it in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Much easier. I think it's just, you know, there's people. You take all your kids out, you're hoping for a good time, right? You've got your three kids and others there and there's a lot going on and I'm guessing that this is your way of creating fun family memories, right? That matters to you. Am I getting that right? Yeah, most definitely. I mean, our boys' first baseball game. yeah. That's really sweet. So yeah, so you get out there and things aren't really going as planned. You're hoping that this is going to be this really cool experience. But then, like you said, kids are being kids. And things start to get sort of out of control. And then your body starts to get worked up. And you start to get tension and high blood pressure. And if we could just kind of lean into that, it doesn't sound like you can feel a lot of it right now. But if we just sort of lean into that tension, what do you think that tension is saying? Is it like afraid of something? What's that tension about? I think it's just kind of that fear of losing control. Definitely did not feel on the same page as Melissa. And I just felt like - So you guys aren't on the same page and your page is you're worried that things are gonna get out of control. And like, what does that look like? What does out of control look like? Yeah, I think it's just, you know, just not willing to cause a lot of attention, but bringing on a lot of attention to us and, and I have kids melting down and screaming. I mean, we're in the front row of a front row, like front row seats in the right up next to the field and everything. So it's like all eyes are on you from -
10s, 20s of rows behind us and I think it's just, yeah, I just don't want to draw any unnecessary attention to us, I think. And it was just that feeling and then knowing that there's people right behind you and leaning in, just hearing everything, it's kind of tough to regain, kind of just control the situation. Having the kids kind of start to spiral and scream and yell and yeah. Okay, so there's all this chaos going on and if we kind of put this into context, you're able to say, look, I know kids are being kids. I get that. But at the same time, you know, I'm impacted. I start to get, what, like embarrassed? I definitely think that's the case most certainly. Okay. You know, is it - What happens if everybody's paying attention to you? Like, is it what they might be thinking about you or about your family? Yeah, I suppose so. It's just, you know, I've got hundreds of eyes on you. You know, just like, look at that guy, you know, look at that family. And it's like, I don't want that. When you say, look at that guy, look at that family, what does that mean for you? I don't know. It's just a little bit embarrassing, I suppose. It's a little bit of like just... It can be a little humiliating at times, but it's just... I don't know. It's just not something I am used to dealing with. So I think part of it was, hey, let's just... let's get out of this moment and kind of walk up to the concourse, take a walk with the kids. And, you know, of course that makes painting so much worse just because, you know, you took them out of that environment and they were, it's where they wanted to be.
So that's what you do, right? When all this is coming up, that's what you do is you try to stabilize the situation, get them out of there. But I'm just really trying to lean into this, like what comes up just as you say, there's this part of me that starts to feel really humiliated. That sounds pretty painful to start to feel humiliated. Yeah, it's definitely an insecurity of mine. What's it like for you to feel humiliated? What? Yeah, it's almost like... Just a blanket over top of you kind of makes you feel like you're being pulled down a little bit and it's tough to get out of that. Okay, so I'm jumping in again here. When people get triggered, it happens really fast. Sometimes so fast that you don't even have time to think about it before you react. And so what I'm doing here is helping Drew really slow it down, really get to know more. about what happens for him when he's triggered. When we tell these stories, he wants to move fast, like it happened in real life. He wants to say, the kids were being rowdy, I got embarrassed and I tried to get us out of there and I know that didn't work. But in the sessions, we have to do it differently. We have to teach his nervous system how to slow it down so that eventually he can help him slow down things outside of here. And when we're able to slow down, that gives us a little more space to do new things with our feelings instead of just going into that reactive place. Yeah, I mean, you just get caught up in the moment and it's kind of like, just needed to get myself out of that situation and did my best to do so. Okay, so if we just kind of lean into this heavy, can we just kind of sit with that, the heavy that you...
you know, describe this humiliated feeling. I think that's really important. I don't know how often you're used to kind of sitting with that or talking about that. Drew is never used to putting words to this. And why would he be? He, nobody ever taught him how to talk about feelings and help himself with his feelings. He just learned to send them underground and go straight into finding ways to get out of them. And in some areas of life, that's a helpful thing to be able to do. But at other times, it doesn't work so well. Like in this situation, it doesn't work so well for Melissa or for him when he just checks out unexpectedly. So it's all about timing. And again, I'm just trying to help him get to know himself better so he can respond to his inner world in a new way, a way that doesn't hurt his relationship. And if we just kind of lean into that, what else comes up? But what's that like for you to feel humiliated? Is that like a sad place? Yeah, it's sad, I just think... I kind of just... I feel...
a little bit like I'm just disappointing, almost like it's just, you know, I'm a disappointment. I guess it's like, you know, take your kids, take your kids to such a good experience and start to lose control a little bit. And I think I just have a higher expectation. I think, you know, you go into the day thinking, wow, this is going to be a really good day and it's going to be great. Kids first came and everything and then things kind of spiral and it's just tough to, tough to get, tough to recover from that. Yeah. Okay. So you're again, you know, just kind of painting this picture. You're out there, you're trying to make it a good event. You're trying to be a good dad and give your boys this experience. And then things start to go south and it feels like all these eyes are on you and all this pressure and they're melting down and you start to panic and that's one layer of it. And then underneath that panic is like this, you know, feeling humiliated. And then this other part of you says, well, You know, I'm panicking and I'm panicking and I'm feeling humiliated and it's like my fault because I'm not doing something right. I'm just a disappointment in this situation. I know you don't feel like a disappointment all around, but in this situation. And what's that like for you to just say, you know, I feel like a disappointment. Yeah, I mean, it's a hard truth. I feel like I'm... failing a bit as a, not only as a husband, as a friend. It was just, I expect more, but being in that situation, it's hard to kind of see through those lines sometimes. So you kind of definitely got caught up in the moment and I went into panic mode and I just, I did not recover. And of course, like I said, I mean, that didn't lead to anything good between Melissa and I for the next few hours. It was tough. And we're still working on that, like what to do when these things come up. And what I'm hearing is that underneath that tension and underneath that panic is actually kind of a lot of pain.
Like nobody likes to feel humiliated and like all these eyes are on them and like actually like you're letting everybody down and you're just a disappointment. That's a pretty painful place to be. Yeah. Very much so. Yeah. And I don't think you're used to really putting a lot of words to this place. You're used to just kind of trying to regulate it. You know, you have all these strategies to regulate it, understandably. And so it sounds like, you know, you tell me what did you do in that moment? Yeah, I mean, I think my initial response was to get out of that situation and just try to change the environment around me. I don't know if it was that effective. I think it did more harm than good instead of just trying to recover there on the spot and communicate with Mel, but Well, I would like to help you guys do different things when all of this pain starts welling up and getting you guys stuck in a negative cycle. And I appreciate you just going with me here and helping me understand why your body is needing to get out of there. Let's just understand the very good reason. And first of all, panic feels awful. Nobody likes panic. Panic says do something, do something that's hurts.
And underneath that pressure and panic is a very painful place for you. You know, there's a dark place in there where you feel humiliated, you feel looked down on, you feel like you don't have it together. In the eyes of all these people, you're in a literal stadium, you know? And so what you do to kind of regulate that, regulate your body, is you just try to get out of there, problem solve, keep this from getting worse, try to do anything you can. Then, you know, Melissa sees you just kind of going away and checking out. But what we're figuring out here is that's not exactly what's going on.
And have you ever shared this with her before? No, actually I haven't. Okay, would you be willing to tell her, you know, look, I get it. I get, you know, you feel left alone, but what's really going on with me in those moments is I'm trying to regulate and keep myself out of this painful place.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think when I see situations like this have happened, I mean, not only this past weekend, but probably throughout several years of being together. I mean, I think part of when you think I am checking out, it's, you know, me trying to, you know, kind of give back control of whatever has been going on and be able to process it and try to figure out the best path forward. And sometimes it just takes some time for me to do that. It's very, very hard. but it doesn't come from a place where I'm trying to avoid or ignore you. I think it's just, I don't know how to cope with it sometimes and it's, it makes things a little challenging.
So how is that to put a little, a few more, maybe a lot more words to your experience in those moments? Yeah, I mean, putting words to it is, it's very helpful. I don't think even throughout this past weekend, I mean, it took hours and hours for us to kind of try to figure out even how to communicate with each other and being able to say it and think through it so clearly now. Yeah, certainly. Well, how could you, you know, know how to communicate it so clearly because what you're used to doing is just trying to kind of go away, fix it, fix the problem. Like nobody ever really taught you how to dig in and share more vulnerably what's happening for you. And then you don't get help with that place. And then, you know, Melissa isn't able to help you in that place. And you're not able to kind of come together in a way that's really helping each other. It's not your fault. That's why we're here.
And so Melissa, what is it like for you to hear more about what happens for him emotionally in those situations? And I'm not saying we want that to keep playing out the way it is, but just to understand war.
I think, Two things, I think. It's really helpful. I think it brings a lot of empathy to the situation. Like instead of seeing him as somebody who's running and avoiding to just, you know, see him as somebody that I love that's struggling and just doesn't know what to do and how to cope, you know, it's easier to see the person that I love. It's easier to see my friend, somebody you know that I want to be there for and it makes me want to help and be there and it brings a lot of understanding and love and empathy. I think also on the other hand it's
It's hard, it still leaves me in a place of anger because as true and as real as it may be, it leaves me alone to be the one that doesn't get to check out. Melissa is understandably triggered here because while she really appreciates getting to see more of Drew and her empathy is definitely being activated, Her body doesn't entirely trust it. And that's, again, that's entirely understandable. The block in her body right now is saying, yeah, this is nice right here and now, but I don't know this is going to lead to us getting out of these cycles outside of here. I'm still needing help in those moments. And I'm not sure any amount of empathy and understanding right here and now is going to change that. And that's understandable. And Melissa deserves to put words to that. and she deserves to experience real change. Actually, our work isn't successful if it doesn't lead to real change outside of here for both of them. But here's the problem. Her trigger just took over the interaction and she wasn't able to stay with Drew in his feelings and let it soak in and stay with the comfort. And I mean comfort. I don't mean taking responsibility for his feelings and trying to change them. I mean, support, holding, validation, just, you know, giving this new stuff more space before jumping into her own stuff, which is where most couples get very stuck, bouncing back and forth between their stuff because they can't manage their own triggers long enough to stay with each other. And they don't trust that if they do that, that they'll ever get their needs met. They get scared. They say, whose needs matter more here? And If I stay with them, I'm gonna lose my agenda here. But there is a way to do both. But for now, she left him and she went straight into, but what about me? And again, very understandable. And that's something that we're gonna need to work with on both sides of the equation because Drew does that too. So we're gonna need to work on their timing because won't it be great when they can stay with each other's feelings and learn
that when they get better at doing so, they're going to dramatically increase the odds that real change will happen and will stick. You know, the reality is even if that situation is hard and overwhelming and challenging for me, we still have three small kids that don't understand where they are and what's happening. And they need us and somebody has to be there and not check out. And so this baseball game and all the challenging moments of the last six years that we've had kids, it's me. not allowed to be the one to check out. And so it's like, I feel a lot of love and empathy and I want to be your best friend and be there for you. But I also feel frustrated and left very alone. And so I don't know how to reconcile two very different feelings. Yeah. And I, you know, I appreciate you putting this into context because you're saying, Hey, you know, on one hand, I get you, I see you, I feel a lot of empathy for you when you share. with me more vulnerably what goes on for you instead of just pulling away with no real explanation there. But then you're also saying your panic in those moments and your fears in those moments, they impact me. Yeah. I get the message when you go away to regulate yourself, which makes sense to you, but you get the message that I'm all alone here. And like, what's that like for you to just kind of always be wondering when you're going to get left alone?
It's hard. It's either it's like one of two speeds. It's either terrifying and super emotional, or I just give up and shut down and take care of it myself. Right. That's what that's what you do. Right. But as we just sit here right now and you you know, we we put words to this like I'm kind of always wondering, you know, we've got these kids that there is going to be chaos. There's no way around that. And that leaves me sort of always wondering when I'm going to kind of lose him to his anxiety. So here, notice that I'm asking Melissa what comes up inside of her. And her body starts to touch the pain and the fear. But then she so quickly pops out of it and starts focusing on Drew and what he's getting wrong and why can't he see. then her body leaves her and starts to talk about him because he's the one that triggers this place. And there's truth in that because his behaviors are impacting her and who would want for things to stay like this. But every time she goes into him, she leaves herself and she abandons her own pain. And that place doesn't really get help. She thinks the help is in changing him. And again, there's truth in the need for his change, but Right now we need to do something different. We need to get to know more about her deeper feelings, her pain, her fears, her self -doubt, the place she's used to abandoning instead jumping into reactivity. So I'm going to validate her move away from herself and into her place of protest. And then I'm going to move her back out of focusing on the trigger and into focusing on what the trigger actually brings up. for her and help her put some more words to that place because there's a lot of healing that can happen when we start showing up for these places and ourselves. And of course, it's even better when partners can also help each other in these places because I don't think humans deserve to be or thrive when they're alone in these places. What comes up right now just as we put words to that.
It makes me feel a lot of... fear and anger and a sense of if I were good enough, then you wouldn't have to go. Like we could just figure it out and be partners and
You know, so why do you have to go find something else to regulate? You know, why do you have to leave or like go do like a low -key, you know, check in with a friend or just whatever easy mindless task? Like what, why can the strategy never be some sort of connection between the two of us? So, so there, there are a lot of layers here is what I'm hearing, which is one, I get mad. Yeah. You know, I get mad. That's my body saying, this doesn't feel right. We're not working as a team here. Yeah. And then on top of that, there's this fear that's like, will this ever change? And then there's, you know, if that's not bad enough, then this other voice comes in and says, you know, what is it about me that I'm not helpable or whatever? Yeah. That's exactly how do you make sense of that? Like, what is it about you? You know, what's what do you tell yourself? What is an insecure part? Tell yourself. What is it about you that you're not being shown up for?
I don't know, maybe if I were more... fun or nice or pretty or just a better mom, a better wife, just anything. that I would be easier to connect to. So that I feel like I add that to my responsibilities. Okay. So then you work harder to be enough, to be pretty enough, to be fun enough, to be better. Yeah. That sounds pretty exhausting. It is.
And do you put, do you talk about this to him?
I think that we've tried. We've had success sharing, you know, like... We recognize it and we see it and we want to do better, but I think the furthest we've ever got is I'll say to Drew, like, I don't. I'm trying so hard, I don't want to keep failing. And then with a lot of love, he'll respond, you're doing such a great job. What are you talking about? You're not failing. Like I see you and appreciate you and love you. And how can I do better? What can I fix? What can I work on? And he'll try to take a couple of specific action items to work on. And it's enough as a bandaid to get us by because he'll work on one or two things and I'll work on one or two things. but then some other thing will come up and we just don't find yourself again at the baseball game trying to take care of it all on your own and he's not around. Yeah. And that we just had that conversation this weekend. Like it could be. in the hospital, it could be at a baseball game, it could be the biggest thing, it could be the smallest thing, but it's just these new situations keep presenting themselves and you try to logic your way through it. But once your feelings are so heightened, it's like these unresolved things that your logic can't override those feelings and you just snap into survival mode and it's...
These patterns come out, whether we mean for them to or not. You just, you can't logic your way out of those situations, whether they're big or small. It's like, no matter how much we talk about it, no matter how much we try to address kind of how we make sense of the root of this problem, we still keep finding ourselves in this cycle. Yeah. And when we're stuck in that cycle, there's no logic, logic -ing our way out of it. It just gets stuck and we're in the same, you know, position where I'm feeling like he's gone and I start to get mad and then he senses I'm mad and then he pulls away and Yeah, and it's scary because we love each other and we want to make it work. I mean, am I saying that right? Of course. Yeah, so talk to me. Talk to me so I can... So some of you might be wondering why I say talk to me instead of just letting them start talking to each other. Well, at this stage in the therapy, I have to focus on them talking to me. It's pretty much a guarantee that if I sit back and let them go forward with a conversation around this material, they're probably going to end up in their negative cycle because they haven't quite learned yet how to talk about this hard stuff in a positive cycle. And another thing I'm doing is I'm giving them the experience of really, really sitting and listening to each other without jumping in. And that's really going to help them. you know, going forward is to really learn how to truly just be with each other and listen. So right now I'm doing that by reminding them, talk to me, that's keeping them from going back and forth. Sometimes I say, you know, you have the entire rest of the week to talk to each other without me, but right now I really need to use our time in a different way. But we just get so stuck. Right. And when you're in those moments and he's gone,
and you have all this reason to believe that it's still gonna be happening. And then on top of that, you go to this place where you say, what is it about me? I mean, I think part of you can say, hey, I know it's his anxiety that does this, but this other part of you actually starts to question yourself. I think that's the moment when it's too big and then I shut down. Like I've tried to help the kids, help myself, help Drew. and I feel like I've failed all of it. Like I've tried to carry the 10 ,000 pound weight. I've tried to do all the things, walk on eggshells, get it right. And when I've gotten every single thing wrong, it's just like that feeling of total and complete failure and it's too much. And like once my body is in survival mode, that's a feeling from the past that I know all too well. And it's like just... survive each five minute increment, just gotta take care of the kids, just gotta get through this, get through the next thing. Right, so you just go into survival mode and again, you're in survival mode, you're taking care of it, but there's also this lingering resentment and anger because you're all alone with it. And if you were all alone with it and you took the kids to the game yourself, you'd do it, you'd deal with it. But there's something that's really painful about him being physically there but not really there. And you start to feel really unsupported. Yeah. And then that's when you say, you know, all these layers of experience, like how you feel alone, you feel sad, you feel afraid, you feel angry. And underneath all of that, there's this voice that says, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not enough for him. And so what you do in this cycle is you go in to just move forward one step in front of the other. And like, what would happen if you if you reach to him for help in that moment, if you said, hey, listen, I know your anxiety is really high right now, and I want to help you with that, but I am also needing some support over here. What would happen? I'm guessing that you've tried that.
I don't know that I've tried it that eloquently. I feel like what we always try is like there's a logical part of my brain that knows, hey, this conversation would go a lot better if you guys talk through this tomorrow or even later tonight when the kids are sleeping. But there's this panicked survival mode part of me that's like, you have to solve this and fix this right now because everything is too big and too scary. So like I'm down with my parents and niece and nephew and the kids and just the whole group and Drew's up and he's been gone for a while and so my initial is to like grab my phone and start messaging. Where are you? What are you? How are you know like do you want this to be a great experience for the kids? I want this to be a great experience for the kids. The way to do that is to connect and engage and they're too. Just sit down here and say the word baseball you know give them a snack. What just Why can't we work through this? You know, and it's just these like...
reaches, I guess, like, why is this so hard? Why can you not connect to me and the kids? What's the issue? What's the problem? Why can't we solve it? Why can't we figure it out? Just... my own version of how can we make this go away? How can we solve through it right now, right this minute? Because I'm too, it's too, if we don't solve through it this minute, it's going to like grow like a snowball effect in my mind. And it's just, it's, it's almost like me saying like, please help me and please come help the kids. But like, yeah, just please help. Right, that's that. And we kind of talked, we touched on this last week. That's that pressure in your body. It's saying something is not right here, something is not right. And like that, that's that anger, right? That wells up because your body is saying, I need to, I need some help here. I need some help here, understandably. Right? And so what happens, you're telling me in this cycle is you don't really feel like there is a way out. And so you get on the phone and you get desperate and you start trying to pull him back in, pulling back in. Yeah. Right. So it's like he holds space and I'm literally sending him these text messages and I think what it really comes down to is I don't trust that everything is going to be okay. Sure. That's the ultimate like I don't hold that core belief like if we don't solve this right now there's no way.
Like our marriage isn't gonna be okay, our kids aren't, like my mind has already escalated that far. Like if we don't take care of us, there's no situation in which everything can be okay. We have to solve it. But what he needs is a couple of minutes to be alone, which is the exact opposite of what I need. And it's - And I appreciate that you get that, right? I appreciate you can make sense of him. But right now I really wanna focus in on you, cause a lot comes up for you. And what's coming up for you is it gets really big and scary really fast. It's like, I don't know that there's any way I can reach him in the healthiest way possible. Something blocks that. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's in the past you've tried and it didn't work or if you just don't, you know, whatever it is, your anger and panic at the best of you. Because that's your body screaming, I need some help here. We're not in the place I want us to be. And you get really scared and the pressure builds up in you. And I don't really think that you know there's another way to handle it. I don't really think you trust that there's another way to handle it. And so you just put it all out there, right? Yeah. You get desperate and you start protesting. And then we all know the way it lands on him is... you know, then he's more overwhelmed and he starts going to into his triggered place. But again, we're really trying to understand these things that you guys do in the cycle because you just haven't learned a better way yet. in the service of starting to do some new things. Yeah. Right. It's, it's, I, what I found is, is when people can really understand what's going on with them, that's where the shifts come from. Yeah. Right. And so would you be willing just to tell Drew what we're learning here right now, which is, you know, my body gets to the point where I just don't trust that anything else will get me the help I'm looking for.
I think I get so scared and so overwhelmed. I just... Whether it's right or wrong, I just... I - I don't... I don't trust and yet believe that everything will be okay. I want to, but I don't trust that it's okay to put it down and leave it. And it's very scary and very overwhelming to sit alone in fear with all of that. And it's my way of reaching out and pleading. even if it's not effective.
So how does that feel to share that with him? He just sees the texts, right? He just gets the energy. But right now you're sharing more more vulnerably with him and how is that?
It's good, it's a little scary, like I'm...
I know that I'm It's hard to say like, hey, I don't trust that things will be okay because I really want them to. And I just have this urge, like I want to fix it and I want it to be okay. And it's hard to just sit with the feeling of like it being hard. Sure. Yeah, I think that, you know, this just doesn't really define all of you. I think there is this part of you that trusts that he can be there for you. you know, if you guys figure out a way to get there. But in that moment, it happened so fast. Yeah, the mistrust happened so fast. And there's a really good reason for that mistrust. I don't know exactly what it is, but there's, I've never met mistrust that doesn't have good reason for not trusting. Yeah, right. You know, it could be related to stuff that's happened between the two of you. It could be related to stuff in your past. Usually it's both. It's some of both. We're going to figure that out. But right now, Drew, let me check in with you. How is it for you to hear more about what's kind of behind those texts and that what she's experiencing when she goes into that texting place is pretty similar to what you're experiencing when you try to regulate your body by moving away. You both are trying to regulate your systems. Yeah, I mean.
I think the responses on Saturday didn't come as like any surprise. I think we were just kind of missing the mark with each other a little bit. But it does, I mean, it's very nice to hear. you know, a little bit more and I'm glad we're kind of diving into it because yeah, I mean, if, if not for this, it would probably gotten unresolved and we'd have probably been short with each other and don't know if it would ever, ever been fixed per se or addressed. So I mean, it's, it's very nice to hear. I mean, it provides a little bit more clarity and just, just around how you're feeling.
Yeah, I wanna figure this out. Great, yeah, that's what we're here for. Wouldn't it be great if you guys in these moments, or I'm gonna say when you guys in these moments can learn to come together and help each other instead of having to go away to that tense place? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we're gonna keep working on. So good work today. I think another thought that continues to pop into my mind is like, I think for Drew, there's a pressure of like, my gosh, all these people are watching. And for me, my pressure is always like our kids are watching and absorbing. Some of it's like when I'm hypervigilant and anxious all the time and Drew is, you know, avoiding or checking out from time to time. It impacts our kids. And they have all of our love and connection, and we provide for them. But I think for me, I have a big sense of urgency and eagerness to find a healthy pattern that we can display for them to see just a better style as well, pick up better habits. Yeah, and that shows how much you love your kids, that you both, you know, really want to be able to model to them healthy relationships and help them feel safe in the world. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:00:22.414) And so what happens is, when you get stuck in that negative cycle, where, Drew, let's just, wherever it starts, I'm gonna start with you, Drew, over here, you start to, the tension starts to build in you because something important's happening for you. You don't wanna feel all the bad things that happen for you when you feel watched and judged. And so your body gets. overwhelmed and then you need to regulate yourself so you go away and then Melissa you feel like you're left alone with it all and then you get really scared and dysregulated and that's when you you know don't know what else to do and you go into the texting and then Drew I want to learn more about how that impacts you next time but it's not it doesn't work really for you that probably makes you feel even more like a disappointment and a letdown and then you pull away more and then and then Melissa you end up feeling you know, more let down, more abandoned. And then you're saying on top of that, the kids are observing this, whether it's consciously or not consciously, they're observing the tension. And so we're all here looking for a better way. And won't that be nice when we figure out that better way where you guys can help each other and be the parents that you want to be for your kids, which I know you are most of the time. And you know, these negative cycles don't define the relationship. We certainly want to get them under control and you guys are, you know, I really appreciate you being here. We appreciate it too. Thank you. Okay. So there you have it. The end of our second episode with Melissa and Drew. So to summarize what we did here, we learned more about their cycle and how it plays out. And we got down into some deeper layers of vulnerability, had them put some words to what we found. share with each other in a way that was very new for both of them. So from an attachment perspective, a lot happened here. We have Drew's very typical avoidant fear of shame and failure. And when I say very typical, I mean typical to those with avoidant attachment. So that comes alive when he's feeling harshly judged and rejected at the game and... The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:02:42.382) then the way he acts out on that leaves Melissa feeling abandoned. And then she acts on that with this urgent protest that doesn't help. And it's all sort of this attachment disaster on all fronts. And through the attachment lens, they both have really good reasons for really feeling what they feel and doing what they do. And what they're doing isn't working. But they have good reasons. Drew needs to feel safe in being viewed as someone who is competent and has it together. And if he doesn't view himself in that way, that's a real threat to him. What would that mean about him? That's his shame place. It didn't look like it was about Melissa on the surface, but from an attachment perspective, it was very much related. His attempts to feel safe with the crowd are his attempts to feel safe with himself by avoiding the shame that the crowd might trigger in him, which extends to feeling safe with Melissa because Melissa's view of him is paramount. And in his mind in that moment, on a very subconscious level, how is she going to view him if in the big picture he's just this shameful and competent guy who can't keep his own family together? And we haven't gotten there with him yet. We haven't put words to that. or explored that with him yet, but we'll eventually see that there are parts of him deep within that do fear that might be true. So again, avoiding the crowd's judgment was his way of avoiding his own shame. Of course, the way he responds to that fear of shame sort of creates a self -fulfilling attachment prophecy, which is what shame does. And then we have Melissa feeling dropped and abandoned, and she's overwhelmed now and scared, and she starts sending the protesting text because her anxious attachment is telling her to get big and be heard. And if she can just word it in the right way, he'll see the error in his ways and come back. And on top of that, we have her shame activated around, is this about me fundamentally not being enough or too much? Which of course adds a layer of panic to her. And then her reactions are even more desperate. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:05:02.222) And we know this is about more than just being physically alone with the kids. If that were the case, she would figure it out on her own in this situation or get help from the people that she was with. But no, on an attachment level, this is more about her safety and knowing that Drew will be there for her when she really needs him. And in this moment at the baseball game, she's having to question that. And so the situation at the game was hard, yes, but underneath the rowdy kids, they were both overwhelmed with something even bigger, which was attachment fears and unmet needs. And they don't have words for this and they don't know how to help that. And this is why couples fight. So the million dollar question, what will work in these situations? I would like to see them be able to co -regulate each other in these hard moments by helping and supporting each other emotionally. and getting their attachment needs back online. Last week, that probably would have looked more like Drew being better able to help Melissa with her anxiety in the hospital and her being able to take that in. And this week, it probably would have looked more like Melissa being able to help Drew with his anxiety at the game and him being able to receive that and take it in. And I think if that would have happened, they would have come together and worked it through. And it's also going to happen as we continue the de -shaming work of this therapy, because this therapy is teaching them new ways to make sense of themselves and their own behaviors, and it's shame -dissolving work. And in that sense, this is healing each of their individual relationships with themselves. This is the self -work part. And the de -shaming work is going to make the triggers in tough situations less intense and even less likely to happen to begin with. because it's one thing to have to deal with a tough situation and it's another thing to deal with core shame that's being triggered by the situation and then the attachment issues on top of that. And so how can you use this work at home? So I'm going to put a homework PDF on my website, thesecurerelationship .com, called the Anatomy of a Trigger Worksheet. And this will help you get more in touch with The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:07:22.99) the deeper things happening for each of you when you get triggered, just like we're understanding for Melissa and Drew. And once you feel that out, you can share with each other. And the idea is that you'll be able to understand and empathize with each other in a new way. And if you want even more understanding around this, you can check out chapter five of my book, Secure Love. And like I've mentioned, Secure Love is also going to help you have a much better understanding of attachment theory. which is the crux of the work we're doing here in the podcast.
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