Breaking The Negative Cycle
In this episode
In the debut session, therapist Julie Menanno introduces Melissa and Drew, married ten years with three young kids, and maps their negative cycle around a tense hospital visit for their son. She helps Melissa hear her anger as a hopeful bid for connection, and helps Drew name the helplessness and emotional shutdown beneath his withdrawal. As both put words to what they feel, the couple shifts from an anxious-avoidant pattern into a genuinely co-regulating moment of relief and understanding.
Key takeaways
- Anger is often a desperate bid for connection and carries hope; when the pursuing partner’s anger fades, it can signal lost hope.
- Drew’s withdrawal is a way to regulate helplessness and shame, not a lack of caring.
- Anxious and avoidant partners unconsciously try to balance each other out—in a way that leaves both feeling alone.
- Mapping the cycle—the surface ‘moves’ and the deeper attachment needs beneath them—comes before real change.
- Putting words to underlying feelings can turn a stuck conflict into co-regulation.
Read the full transcript
Welcome to the first episode of the Secure Love podcast with Julie Menanno, where we explore the depths of attachment theory and its profound impact on our relationships. I'm Julie Menanno, your host and a licensed therapist dedicated to helping couples build secure, lasting connections. In this podcast, I'll be using emotionally focused therapy for couples to treat a real couple for 20 sessions of therapy. so that they can learn how to move out of negative communication cycles that are getting in the way of their emotional closeness and their ability to successfully navigate their way through conflict. By joining us on this journey, I'm confident you'll be able to relate to the relationship patterns that are keeping our couples stuck and more importantly, to be able to apply what we're learning to your own relationship. Menanno The purpose of this podcast is to use the relationship between Melissa and Drew as a way to shine light on the way attachment styles influence relationship interactions. And ultimately, to be able to see how this all plays out in your relationship at home. But while understanding is an essential piece of the puzzle, and I don't say that lightly, it is an essential piece of the puzzle, so is change. And for change to happen, you're going to need some skills, some tools. that you and your partner can start communicating in a new way, a way that creates secure attachment instead of in a way that feeds negative cycles and insecurity. You're going to get some of those skills here as I facilitate new ways of communicating between Melissa and Drew. And I'm going to be explicit about what is new between them and what is working between them. So you can try it at home. But on top of that, the work we're doing here is put out prescriptively in my book Secure Love. So you can use that as an additional resource. Think of the book Secure Love as the instruction manual and the podcast Secure Love as the movie version to help you experience the work come alive. Each episode is going to feature segments from Melissa and Drew's sessions where I'll be demonstrating the process of uncovering and understanding their attachment dynamics, demonstrating them doing things differently.
And most importantly, providing you with an explanation of how you can use the work at home. Let me introduce you to Melissa and Drew. They've been married for 10 years. And like many couples, they face their fair share of ups and downs. Melissa tends to feel anxious and often worries about their relationship. She misses the deep connection she felt to Drew in the early years of their relationship before life got more complicated and resentments built. Drew, who is the avoidant partner, struggles with expressing his own emotions and wishes he could show up for Melissa in a way that works for both of them. He tends to outwardly blame himself for not getting it right, but he also holds on to resentment. Their differing attachment styles have led to misunderstandings and conflicts that we'll be exploring in much more depth than these two can see on the surface. And I'm confident that many of you listening are going to relate to what we uncover. Like many of you listening, Melissa and Drew have had their fair share of life complications. They both describe their first five years together as great, but then they were hit with what Melissa describes as a whole lot of life. Sadly, Drew lost his dad six years ago, right after their first child was born. So you can only imagine the challenges that brought to their relationship. And on top of that, Melissa was struggling with postpartum anxiety. Shortly after the loss of Drew's dad, they decided to relocate to another city to be closer to family. And while Drew agreed to it, he initially resented Melissa for the move. And all the while, Melissa began feeling like she wasn't getting the support she needed from Drew and started to experience feelings of desperation for connection. At this point, they moved into a familiar pattern of repetitive negative cycles in which Melissa anxiously pursues more help and closeness. And Drew, feeling as though there's no way to get it right, retreats into his avoidance. As the years went by, they made it through the big move, which involved an extended stay with Melissa's parents. Drew took on a high -pressure job. And sadly, they experienced a miscarriage, all of which added to their stress and contributed to negative cycles. Then when their twin boys, who are now two, were born, they found themselves battling ongoing medical issues.
with each of their three children. Fortunately, their daughter is now healthy and thriving in school. And while the twin boys are healthy, they're struggling with some developmental delays that add another layer to the normal stress of parenting young children. Now, it's important here that we don't lose sight of the fact that Melissa and Drew do have many strengths as a couple. Both of them are committed to working on the relationship. According to Melissa, No matter how bad any of our interactions become, we always come back together and say, do we want to work on this? And the answer is always yes. And on that note, Drew said that he appreciates that after conflict, they're both willing to come back to the table, and they always do their best to get back on the same page. Melissa and Drew love being active together, making food together. share the same value system. And what I thought was really sweet was when Drew said, we're growing into really enjoying being parents together. As I mentioned, my first goal with any couple is to understand and help each partner understand their negative cycle, how it plays out, what each of their moves are. And by moves, I mean the things that you see on the surface, the words they say or the behaviors that they engage in. And what's the deeper emotional and attachment stuff going on underneath their moves? In other words, why are they needing to behave in the way they do to try to feel safe? And how their moves are triggering and impacting each other. And I really want to get them putting words to all of this in a very new way with each other, a way that inspires a lot of understanding and empathy. And ultimately, we're going to change those patterns. We're going to change the cycle. We're going to create positive cycles. But the first step in doing so is getting really clear about what's happening to begin with. And in EFT, we have a very organized way of doing that. So right here, I'm going to be doing three things in this session. One, I'm going to start getting a picture of their negative cycle. Two, I'm going to help us all understand more about Melissa's anger.
in the cycle. And three, I'm going to help us all better understand Drew's emotional retreat in the negative cycle. And now, let's dive into our first session with Melissa and Drew as we begin to use attachment theory to understand and improve their relationship. What I really want to do for this session is make sure that we are really able to spell out your negative cycle very clearly. And then, Melissa, I want to do some work, maybe about half the session, with you around this angry feeling that you get. You mentioned in these moments when so much is going on and you're with the kids and you're kind of like two ships passing in the night and you said, I don't want to be mad. I don't entirely understand why I'm mad, but I noticed the anger kind of starts to build. So do you mind if we just spend a little time with that? Yeah, let's do it. OK. All right. You know, like I said, and I want to kind of understand your anger in the context of this negative cycle. So you were describing to me these moments where, you know, you've got so much going on and you understand Drew. I mean, you don't, you know, big picture. You know how supportive and helpful he is, but still in these moments, you know, something just doesn't. feel right and your body starts sending you this message, right? Can we just talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, I think it's so interesting because even this last week, I really tried to pay attention and hone in and so many moments popped up, big moments and small moments. So just a lot of examples in our life, we had like a big moment, our one of the boys had just like a routine ear tube replacement. And it ended up not being so routine. He had to get admitted into the hospital because his oxygen levels were dropping. So we were in like a heightened state. But there were also just moments throughout our week of like our kids having, you know, a hard time with
the speech issues or I think we got into a disagreement about watering the houseplants. And so I think, you know, whether it's these really big moments that keep happening or these small moments, I think I was able to verbalize to Drew like, Hey, what's happening for me is that when we're getting into these disagreements, I'm unable to keep thinking and I'm just feeling a lot of things. Like I'm I'm feeling afraid, I'm feeling... I'm so fearful of going back to a place where we were really disconnected that I think then I step it back up and I just start to overcompensate and it just adds to the stress that's already there in the situation of... you know, whether it's our kids or something else. And it already takes a situation where I'm not thinking super clearly and now I'm, I feel like I'm just carrying the weight of 10 ,000 pounds. Just, I want to make sure that you're happy. So I'm trying to pretend like I'm not upset because I... I don't want to go to a place where you're unhappy because then what happens when you're unhappy plus the stress that I'm already feeling about this situation because I'm scared about what's happening with our kids. I'm scared about what's happening with our relationship and just this total, like I've lost my ability to maintain my thoughts and my logic. And I just start like my feelings just take over and it's just feelings of fear. And, and I was able to verbalize to him, Hey, this is what's happening for me. What's, what's happening for you? I think that's part of my fear is I don't, I don't know what's going on. Right. And that's part of that disconnection, right? You don't feel like he's really accessible at that time. Maybe, you know, we can talk about what might be helpful for you in those moments, but
What I'm hearing you say is that you have experienced this period of disconnection and all this stuff is going on. And this is like the time when you need him most. And somehow it doesn't feel like he's fully there. And then something, you know, you try not to say anything, right? It sounds like you try to just keep the peace and not bring it to him, but something in your body starts to sort of mount, right? It's your body's kind of trying to say to you, wait, something doesn't feel right about this. Yeah. And you said, you know, I was able this weekend to start putting some more words to it, but kind of historically, what you would do in this cycle that you guys would get stuck in, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is you would just try so hard to hold it in. You don't want to create a fight or even more disconnection. But then at some point, the anger just kind of builds. And then that's when you might kind of say something from what, like a heated place. Yeah, I feel like we've got two speeds. One of them is, hey, we've been having a really great couple of weeks. Let's focus on all the positive energy and we just kind of like avoid an issue that we know is there deep down because it's too hard to deal with. Or we've got this speed where like everything is coming bubbling out and I'm crying and there's yelling and hurtful things are being said and all these emotions that have been shoved down and held in are like, wow, we're not talking about house plans. We're talking about five years worth of, like, how are you possibly feeling disrespected? How am I possibly feeling this much anxiety? And it's just all... It happens so fast. It's almost like you don't have time to step back and do something with it, right? But again, it sounds like you try so hard. Let's not, let's just kind of focus on the positive. Let's not bring up this bad stuff. But again, that pressure eventually builds and then it goes into that other speed, like you said, where it's all coming out. And then, you know, if we just think of this in a negative cycle, then what happens with Drew when it gets to that point where you kind of start, finally say something.
I'd love to know. If we just look at kind of like the just the behaviors you see, right? Like you get angry, you start to say stuff. You start to protest, understandably. There's a lot going on. Your body is, you know, we're going to learn new ways to handle these feelings, but your body is communicating something really important to you. Something doesn't feel right. I feel disconnected. I need to know, you know, life is hard enough. Like I need to know where emotionally connected here to be able to more comfortably navigate all this hard stuff. So then you get angry and is that when he might get defensive or just shut down? Yeah. So earlier this week when our son got unexpectedly admitted into the hospital, I'm like, even if he hadn't got fully admitted in, it was just a routine ear tube. procedure which is super minor. I'm already in a heightened place and super anxious about that. But then it was just an incredibly triggering situation with like the oxygen and the breathing distress and like a place where we've already been. And last time that happened, you know, we had a kid who almost died and was in the ICU. And so I'm totally offline. Like I'm pacing, I'm... calling my mom to figure out the other kids, crying. It's like incredibly emotional. And I think Drew's response in that situation at first was, it's okay, it's okay, we've got this. And then it becomes more defensive, like, well,
You just, just relax, you know, calm down. Everything's okay. And I've got to think about work tomorrow and this isn't, you know, why are you so anxious? And I think he's wanting to fix it in that moment, like make my anxiety go away. And I don't. And so something about that when he's in this place where he's you're getting messages where he's trying to make your anxiety go away. That's when your mind goes to like, he's not here with me. He's not here with me. Yeah, like I, well, I try to tell myself at first, like he's trying to fix this from a place of love because he doesn't want to see me sad and suffering. That's really hard. But eventually it's I can't stay here alone with this much. fear all by myself like I don't know. I just kind of get lost. I'm going to really, there's a lot of good work here. I really want to dive into this and understand more about this. But right now, let's just kind of try to organize the situation, right, in the service of getting you guys to a place where you can better understand this and better communicate in these moments. But so to just organize it, you've got all this really scary stuff going on. I mean, like the scariest stuff possible. Your child is. hurting and in danger possibly. And so you're feeling really scared and offline, like you said. And then you start to sense that, he's not really there for me. You're getting these messages, just calm down. And that causes you to feel now even more alone and more escalated. And you said, your first move, your first strategy is just to try to talk yourself down, right? By saying, I know he loves me. I know this is his way of.
coping, but eventually like that, that energy builds. And then what's that, you know, you said we have two speeds. What's that second speed response? Is that when you might say, you're not here for me or what, what are those words going to sound like?
If you don't know, that's okay. Can we agree that they're kind of like a bit of an angry protest? Could we? Yeah, I don't know if it's always so many words, so much as me just closing off. Like, I've tried to get you to be here for me and you're not going to, so I'm just going to do it myself. And you can feel that moment when I just close the door and I'm just going to be here. If I'm going to be here alone, then I'll be here alone. OK, and at that point, are you a little more in touch with the anger? Like, you're mad. You're just going to close it off, shut it down. You go do your thing. I'll do my thing. OK. All right. Thank you for sharing that, because that helps me then. Because I think, like Drew had mentioned, that he senses this. So do you mind if I check in with him over here and kind of understand more about what happens to him? So Drew, all this is going on. And then when you. Do you know, does your body know when she goes to the shutdown? Yeah. You know, I mean, I can sense it in her responses, her body language, most definitely. I mean, can you tell me what that body language is? Is it like a tension? Is she not smiling anymore? Although this isn't really a smile situation anyway, but yes, this is more panic than anything else. So, you know, like she said, I mean, over the course of the last week, we're unsure of whether or not, we've been sitting in a recovery room for five hours and it's like, are we gonna be admitted? Are we gonna be sent home? What's going on with one of our twin boys and just trying to work through all of that. And I think a lot of it was kind of some post -traumatic thoughts from a couple of years ago when our other... when son was, was in for a heart procedure. So, I mean, I, I, I knew, I knew being in the hospital is uncomfortable to begin with. So, you know, definitely seeing that on her face and, and the way that she was up and pacing and just, you know, the anxiety, I mean, yeah, you could, I mean, I could definitely feel it. And I think part of it was, you know, me trying to remain calm because if I get worked up and get, you know, get short with her or.
I know that's not going to, we need you to clear thinker. That's for sure. While we were there. So listeners, let me jump in here and highlight something you may not have picked up on. So if I'm a fly on the wall in this hospital room, the time they're describing, what I'm going to see is Melissa showing visible signs of anxiety. She mentioned pacing back and forth and drew showing almost no visible signs of anxiety. Yet, as I'm trying to map out this situation, you can hear that they're both actually feeling a lot of anxiety. It's just that Melissa is quote unquote holding it for both of them, while Drew is more in that place of trying to keep the situation calm for both of them. Neither of them are balanced within themselves. Even though we know Melissa wants to make calm, clear decisions, she's struggling emotionally and not getting the help she needs. And even though Drew, as we're learning here, is outwardly showing the calm. He is also struggling emotionally. And while he might not be aware of this need, he would like some emotional help too. Neither is better or worse, more or less to blame. What they're doing unconsciously is trying to balance each other out, which is what the anxious avoidant dynamic tries to do. It tries to find balance, but in a way that doesn't really feel good. So you're trying to stay calm. You're trying to... the kind of regulating force for both of you. You know, she's in distress. And then what happens when you sense that she starts to get angry and close off? What goes through your mind right there? Yeah, I mean, I think a part of it is, you know, it's I would say maybe it's a little bit of frustration just simply because I need us both to, you know, have clear thoughts when we're trying to make decisions, especially around like health care and You know, what are we going to do as far as like logistics with, you know, with our other kids and yeah, I mean, it's, you know, part of what she said was, you know, trying to figure out the next day. Cause you know, you go in for a routine procedure and think it's going to take a couple hours and then seeing, you know, nine hours go by and it's like, what are we doing? So yeah, I mean, it's obviously frustrating too, because you know, we're trying to figure this out and. You know, I could feel like someone I'm walking on eggshells and trying to make sure I see the right thing.
Okay, so what happens for you then is your body picks up, okay, now she's upset. She's not thinking. And then from there, we're going to go to, she's not thinking clearly. There's anxiety around that because you're concerned too, and you want to be on the same team too, right? And so you start to feel anxious. And then you said something else there at the end that I lost. you start to feel like you're kind of walking on eggshells. So that's what happens when you get frustrated is that your way of kind of your move, I'm going to be using this word move a lot. Move is like a behavior, right? We got all this stuff going on inside of us, thoughts and feelings and bodily sensations. And so your move here is just to start getting really careful. And what might that look like? What do the eggshells look like for you? Is it the way you talk? Is it not talking? Yeah, I think I started to shut down a little bit. No. you know, I think it's part of it is if I try to talk out loud through a number of like the different scenarios that we need to think about. I feel like it only is going to probably lead in that moment to more frustration because, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna come across as like inconsiderate or, you know, selfish and, and, and part of it is thinking, thinking out loud through, through. kind of like I said, all the different options before we can kind of come together and pick the best one. Okay. So you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you said that you get frustrated. So you kind of feel mad too, right? I'm guessing that you feel like she's gone, you know, she's feeling like you're gone and then you start to feel like she's gone and there's all these ways that her place that she goes
can impact the situation. Yeah, I definitely think so. And I think that's what leads to both of us starting to get very irritated, short with one another. Leads me to kind of just want to get from point A to point B just to get out of the scenario situation. And part of it is, yeah, I definitely am guilty of shutting down in situations like that. And would you say that, you know, or let me ask this in a different way. Like what happens if you don't shut down? What happens if you show up and say, hey, this is really frustrating for me right now too. Or, you know, what's going to happen right there? I don't know necessarily how good I am in situations like that where, you know, I can kind of, we can kind of think through. I definitely probably get a little too short and irritated and probably generally say something that is not going to be beneficial to what we're trying to, what our outcome is. Yeah, I don't know if I have very good, very good putting practice into play in that regard. Okay. All right. Well, let's just kind of zoom out here and organize this. So you're in this heated situation or very stressful, very scary situation. And at first, you know, Melissa, you're trying to kind of still connect, stay connected through this. But somehow you're getting messages from Drew that he's not really on the same page with you emotionally. You start to feel emotionally alone. Am I getting that right? Yeah. So far. OK. And then all this stuff starts to build up in you. on top of the fear, now you have to experience this disconnection from him. And that's when you're first gonna try to talk yourself down. You know what, I know he's doing his best and you don't wanna go to that angry place. Like you don't wanna make things worse, but eventually the energy gets the best of you and you just kind of shut down and get mad.
And then Drew, now you pick up that she's upset and that starts to have an impact on you because that can really kind of impact the way the situation all plays out and you're scared too. And then you kind of go to this place, it sounds like where it's well, I'm damned if I do, I'm damned if I don't. That might be my phrase, but, and then you. you feel frustrated and then you start to shut down. And then Melissa, and then is this it? Like, do you guys kind of just stay in this tense place for a while? Yeah. That's it. And I think I'm just, I'm laughing because it's like, we experienced this a couple of times this week, like in a hospital room and with our houseplants and with our extended family. And it's like, we see it and we just, stay stuck with it. So this is the cycle, right? And this is really helpful to put words to this. What you're saying is it seems like this pattern sort of repeats itself, whether we're talking about like the worst case scenario, our child is hurt, or even just the houseplants, which is lower emotional stakes, but it still can kind of get into these feelings that you guys haven't quite yet learned how to help each other with in these hard moments, right? Yeah. All right. And so then the tension is there. And my guess is just based on working with other couples, eventually, you know, you kind of start to miss each other and you just want to go back to baseline and your anger goes down and you start to soften and then somehow you make your way back to each other. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's been a phrase that's common for us lately. Like one of us will soften, we'll find our way. back to each other, but it's lately we've been like, wow, look at this positive progress or, you know, look at these steps that we're taking. And I think we're so desperate to see those little bit of positive gains. And it's, I mean, that's good. And I want to celebrate that, but we're doing a huge disservice to the fact that we've never actually dealt with those negative behaviors. So then like they, yes, there are positive things that are happening, but
the negative things are not being solved. OK. I appreciate that you're able to see, hey, we have actually, I do see some positive shifts sometimes, or we have something we can say, hey, we did this better. But then you're also saying that we still really get stuck in these behaviors, and we're trying hard to stop and get some other skills on board here. OK. So now I have mapped out their negative cycle and I'll be doing this more as we go. So now that we have a bird's eye view of their pattern, I'm going to dive in more deeply to each of their experiences. I'm going to give plenty of space to each of their experiences. So first I'm going to work with Melissa to validate and understand her anger. And then I'll switch over to Drew. to validate and understand his experience. And in the process, I'm going to be having them share these new things that we're finding with each other. OK, so let's do this. Let's just really try to understand those behaviors and understand why you're needing to go into these behaviors in these cycles in the service of helping you get some new behaviors on board. But what I've found is that when we can really fully understand the behaviors, it's much easier to learn how to communicate what they're trying to communicate to begin with. So can I start in here with you, Melissa? Let's talk about, like you said, that closed down place that you go to. Can we call this angry shut off? Or what should we call this move? Angry shutdown, angry. Yeah, I think it's based in fear. Fear and anger, but it's definitely a shutdown. So let's yeah, the fear, the fear and the anger are always linked and I never ignore any of these feelings, you know. But sometimes what I find is that if we can make a little more space for that anger at the beginning, it can be really helpful because it sounds like
You don't like that angry place that you go to. It sounds like that's like the worst place for you. That's, you know, so let's make some space for just understanding more about it. Like this anger starts to build in your body. And like you said, I don't want to contaminate the relationship with it, but like, what is that anger trying to motivate you to do? Is it motivating you? Is it trying to kind of motivate him to, hey, pull it together, come over here with me, connect with me? Is it? trying to get him to hear you, like what is that anger about?
Yeah, I think it'... If I think back to certain conversations that we've had, like some phrases that I've said to Drew a couple of times in our life, I can't believe that you could possibly feel disrespected or hurt by me because I am trying so desperately to connect to you. Like I am... literally humiliating myself in service of how can we like, how can I show you that I love you and care for you? How can we be connected? How can we, how can I communicate what I need? How can I learn more about what you need? And I think it just becomes these desperate attempts of, you know, don't leave me alone with my questions to answer myself because they're never answered in a good way. Don't leave me alone with the things that I'm scared of. Like, be connected to me. Yeah, I think it's just a desperate ask for connection. OK, all right. Well, that's helpful. So what you're saying is that when you feel disconnected, somehow it happened with the plants and somehow it happens in all these areas that you guys are vulnerable. You're over here going, gosh, I'm bending over backwards. I'm doing everything in my power, even to the point of humiliating myself. to get to connect with him, to reach him. And it's not working. And I think it's so puzzling too, because when we first got together, we... Like obviously when a couple is first getting together, there's a physical element to your relationship and that has never been an issue for us. But when we first got together, there was a huge... I don't know how to put it like...
verbal connection, emotional, mental. Like we were in different states for a small period of time and we... I actually made it into a book, but we wrote so many emails and like, I guess a modern day letter back and forth. Like I made a book of love letters and it was just this like so much vulnerability and opening up. I knew... all of his thoughts and feelings and ambitions and just so much of that presence and that connection. And so we've often said throughout the years, like, of course it's unrealistic to maintain that, you know, that level. Like we now have a house and three kids and so many more things on our plates and we're here and we're together. So yeah, we don't need to devote our energy in that way, but it's almost like What happened to go from that level of connection and emotional intimacy? When did you become so closed off? Why is it now so difficult to access you? Like, why is it now so much work and so much effort for me to be able to get even a little bit of that from you? So when you just say that right now, you say, what is going on here, right? We have this beautiful connection. Your heart is longing to get back there, and you just don't understand what happened. Like, what comes up right now as you just put words to that?
I'm just sad. Like I don't think I have a certain expectation like, well, we have to write emails again. I think it's just the connection itself. I mean, whatever that could look like at this stage in our life, I just, I feel like I reach out for it often and it gets turned down. Yeah. So you, like you said, you bend over backwards, you're longing to get back to this close place. You know, on one hand, you say maybe it's unrealistic to feel to have that much interaction. But on the other hand, it's almost like the lifestyle right now, you need it more than ever. While you guys try to do all, you know, navigate all the challenges that come with the phase of life that you're in. And it takes you to a really hard, sad place. And just putting words to it right here. And so then what happens is then your body starts to say this isn't right. It starts to signal to you, right? This isn't right. Something needs to change here. And that's when eventually you can't talk yourself out of it anymore. And that's when you kind of go into this protest, right? The anger, the anger takes center stage at that point, right? Yeah. And what is that, if we really listen to that anger, what is it trying to... to tell him what is it trying to change here?
There's a good function of that anger. And I know you know it's not working. You don't like feeling angry. It feels awful, right? So what I'm doing here is making healthy space for Melissa's anger. If you didn't grow up in a home where anger was openly talked about with health and given space, you probably either stuff your anger down or it comes out hot or you go back and forth like what Melissa is describing here. And there's another way. And that starts with honoring anger and listening to it. and really learning about what it's needing. Anger doesn't feel good for anyone. It doesn't feel good for the person holding it or the person receiving it. But anger is also necessary because it's saying something needs to change here. And it's possible to share anger from a healthy place. So if you're the sharing partner, you don't have to either hold it in or let it out in a way that you feel badly about later or even let it out kind of like robotically. That's not really necessary either. And of course, part of the work around anger is also that the receiving partner is able to hold their partner's anger when it's delivered appropriately. And sometimes work needs to be done around that. But what I've found is that when couples learn to do anger well, they don't need to go to anger nearly as often to begin with. So here we're going to see Melissa and Drew do anger in a very different way. than what they're used to. And at the end of this episode, I'll give you some tips around anger to try at home. And you know that it impacts him, it's not working for him. Yeah. But what do you think that anger is trying to do? Is it trying to motivate him? Or is it trying to kind of motivate him to talk about it or to be aware of it? I...
I don't know if I have this like active present thought, but I think there's a part of me that believes like if he sees me sad and hurting, like, well, he certainly won't let me be sad, right? I mean, he loves me. He's gonna wanna repair it. He cares about this relationship and this family. And I see him connect to like the lower hanging fruit, like whether it's... friends or happy hours or fantasy baseball league or just a family outing or whatever, but you know, put forth the connection here, like put your time here. Okay, so there's this part of you that thinks, well, if he sees me sad, he might kind of respond to my sad right there in that moment. But somehow that's not going to translate into like the sustainable connection that you're hoping for. Am I getting that? Yeah. OK. And so the anger is saying that seems like the only way that we can actually kind of address the heart of this issue. Well, then I think it turns toward anger toward myself because if I were
If I were good enough, then he would want to be connected to me. Okay. And so again, in both situations, the anger here is kind of creating some hope. Maybe the anger can get him to change or maybe the anger at myself can get me to change. Yeah. Either way, there's a lot of hope in this anger. Yeah. And how often do you talk about the hope and the anger? Never. Okay. So why don't we... do this now because it's like, you know, you're not trying to just be this mean, bitter wife or whatever, you know, these stories that you might tell yourself when this anger comes up. It's really, this anger is your hope that I can get one of us to change here. Yeah. And you know what happens when the more anxious pursuing partner stops getting angry? That's a really bad place. That means they've lost their hope. Yeah. So there's health in this anger. And there's differences in how we express the anger, and I don't want you to have to feel angry forever. It doesn't feel good. But what it is saying is it's unresolved.
It needs some space here. It needs some words here. So would you be open to telling Drew, you know, what this anger is about? Because this anger needs to be stood up for, right? And his anger needs to be stood up for too. We're going to talk more about that with him. But would you be willing right now just to tell him, you know, my anger is my hope to have this connection that I'm longing for?
Yeah, I think my anger is. hope for being connected to you and
I'm angry, but I'm not angry with you. I'm wanting to be close to you. and it's hard to not be close to you.
That's so hard to put words to. Yeah, this, you know, for some people, anger is a real vulnerable place. Yeah. For a lot of people, anger is a real vulnerable place. You know, if you've had messages about in your life that, you know, anger is kind of always bad and then you stop listening to it and then the energy is still there, right? So what's it like just to kind of honor that energy? and put some words to it instead of trying to just chase it away or expel it. It's very new, but it feels very good to think of it as being hopeful. And I think like you said, there have been a few moments where like, I can feel when the anger goes away. And I think that has been the scariest, most hopeless time in our relationship. And that's actually the most fearful feeling that I've ever, ever felt. So it's like, It's very confusing because you don't want to feel angry, but you feel better when you do feel something versus when you feel nothing at all. So it's good to put words to it. It makes a lot of sense. It's just so new. Yeah, I appreciate you going there with me and that's kind of it. It's like the anger is the hope. What's the worst thing for many people is hopelessness. Yeah. let's kind of figure out how to listen to that anger and do some things differently here. Okay, so now that both Melissa and Drew were able to develop and put words to a better understanding of Melissa's anger, it's time for me to switch over to Drew. What I'm wanting to understand is more about what was happening for him in the hospital. What was his distress about? And why did he need to eventually shut down emotionally? How does that strategy keep him emotionally safe?
Again, my goal for Melissa and Drew is that when they get into stressful situations, regardless of what the topic is, instead of going into negative cycles, they'll be able to help each other emotionally and navigate the situation from that place instead of having to go into these places of anger and withdrawal. So I'm going to jump in here to learn more about Drew. And Drew, what is it like for you just to hear her? putting some words to the anger.
since it's nice to, to communicate on, on this front, I don't know, that's necessarily something that we've been effectively good at. So just, just to be able to dive into these issues and hear you kind of verbally communicate, you know, how you feel in those moments is helpful for me. Just because I feel like, you know, when we get tied up in arguments or Feelings of disconnect. We tend to have tunnel vision and you summed it up pretty perfectly earlier. We just kind of go around separate ways for a period of time until we end up missing each other and we realize sometimes how silly it is that we've been so stubborn. I think a lot of that is on me. just because I, you know, obviously I'm seeking better ways to be able to deal with situations like that. All right. Well, yeah, I mean, I appreciate you being able to take this. You know, it's not always easy for someone to say, you know, tell us about their anger, but it sounds like the way you're getting it right now, like you're not getting it from this place of her just being closed off and kind of seething. You're getting it. from her just almost like, I don't know if the word would be pulling you in, but you can see it a little more clearly. You're not maybe as triggered as you are when it comes at you in that other way. Yeah, I definitely think that's pretty spot on. I think you can see it that way in this moment, but I think you can also probably recall a lot of moments where you've seen it. in a different way.
Yeah, that's the cycle. That's the cycle. So we just did something different from the cycle. We didn't really change what, you know, the feelings. You know, I didn't try to say, don't be angry. I just had you communicate that anger in a new way this time. And the idea here is that as we do this work in this space where you start to experience new ways of communication, communicating that it starts to happen naturally outside of here. Yeah. And so Drew, let me kind of just do a little work with you right now. I would like to know more about your anger in those moments. Right? You said, I get frustrated in the hospital when all this stuff is going on. And I want to feel safe too. I get scared too. And then all of a sudden, I don't know what I did that was wrong, but she goes away. What's that like?
alright. I don't know if it's more frustration, I think, than anger for me. OK, jumping in here. This is very common for someone with an avoidant attachment to not resonate with the word anger in situations like this and instead lean toward the word frustration. Anger in a lot of situations is a more appropriate word for anxious partners because the anger is about not getting what they're wanting or needing from their partner. So it's more of a powerless anger, which fuels protest. While the avoidant frustration is more about not being able to make a particular situation change, not being able to get away from their bad feelings in a moment. It's more of a helpless feeling. So here Drew is correcting me because he wasn't necessarily feeling super angry at Melissa in the hospital room. He was feeling frustrated that he couldn't get the situation to change. He couldn't get things stable. He couldn't make her happy. He couldn't manage the situation. And because of that, he couldn't escape his own bad feelings, his own anxiety, which in many areas of life, he's so good at escaping bad feelings. So his strategy is failing. The worst thing for an avoidant failing. This is not to say Drew or anyone with an avoidant attachment doesn't get angry because they certainly do. But in this situation for Drew, the better word is frustration. I think that we're just not on the same page in terms of kind of collective approach. You know, I think part of it is I'm very guilty of probably.
having an unspoken expectation that I think she's going to respond a certain way. And when she doesn't, it's something I just don't really think through. So how are you hoping that she might respond? What is that expectation hoping for? I think the situation earlier this week, I think I didn't really take into account. how being in that situation made her feel. I think I was, you know, obviously holding one of our boys and just trying to keep him calm and restful. And I think for me, it was just maybe thinking too simple in terms of, you know, if we're in a panic, like if we're in a panicked. If we're in panic mode, it's like they're going to recognize that and they're not going to have the confidence in being able to release us. But at the same time, I mean, I think, you know, he was doing really well, but we were the ones kind of panicking more or less, or, you know, I think you were the one kind of panicking. So something about the panicky place is what feels really scary to you. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think so. I think. What happens? Like, what's the what's going to happen? What's the impact if your son doesn't feel safe because he kind of senses he's he's struggling and then he senses that you guys are panicking? What's the fear there?
I think for me, it's... It's more that, you know, we want to be there to comfort him. We want to make sure that, that he is safe. And obviously if we're not aligned, then, you know, I don't want him to be at risk of anything and not, not feel like, you know, he's taken care of. So I think maybe that's just more thinking as a parent, but. When you think about, when you think about that, like, what do you think? it would feel like for him to feel not cared for. Do you think that might leave him feeling alone or anxious or? Yeah, scared. Yeah. And then if you just imagine like him sitting there feeling like that, like what comes up for you to imagine your son's already maybe in pain and like what comes up if you think of him being scared and alone? Yeah, I mean, I think my protective instincts start to kick in and it's, you know, I want to do whatever, whatever I can at all costs for him to make sure that he feels safe and secure. Yeah. So if I really kind of connect the dots here, it's like you're working overtime to protect him from feeling safe and secure or I'm sorry, to protect him so that he can feel safe and secure, which you have a lot of anxiety around that. That's how much you love your son, right? Of course. But what happens is is who's helping you in this moment with your fear around him?
Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like in that in that moment, you know, I was trying to, you know, keep him calm and. Kind of again, kind of restful and then, you know, trying to trying to. trying to work things through with Melissa just on kind of the situation at hand. So what was that like for you to sit there and have all that going on? Like on one hand, you're trying to take care of your son. And on another hand, you're trying to help Melissa with what she's going through. And like, what's that like in your body as you just put words to that moment? Yeah, I mean, there are definitely points of frustration for me. I think part of it was I was trying to go through all the right motions to, you know, kind of go with the flow. Obviously, you know, we're listening to the advisement of doctors and nurses and. You know, it's. Part of it was something was going on inside of you, right, that you're trying to regulate and you're trying to regulate it. by kind of trying to keep her okay. Not just your son, but you're trying to keep everybody okay. That's how you're trying to regulate your own fear and anxiety in this moment. Yeah, I definitely think that that's the case. Yeah, I mean, deep down I wanted to scream, but you know, I can't break. Right, so what's going on then is you're not getting any help for what you're going through either. But one of the reasons you're not getting help is because you're not asking for it, right? Because maybe you're so consumed with trying to keep everybody else OK that you don't... Why put words to what's going on with you?
but at the same time that energy is there and maybe it's okay, maybe you can deal with it until she gets mad and pulls away.
Yeah, definitely. I definitely replaying that in my head. I mean, I think that's definitely the case. It sounds like you need her too. And that frustration for you is your body's way of saying. something doesn't feel right here. I feel alone here too.
And so what is that frustration maybe kind of trying to motivate?
Frustration and anger are always like an action feeling, right? You think the frustration is... wanting to communicate something to Melissa? Is that your way of trying to make yourself do better?
Yeah, I don't make that moment. I did a very good job of communicating to you, Melissa, that, you know. Well, how could you? You don't, that's what we're here learning, right?
Your MO has always been, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but your MO I think has always been like help other people feel okay. And that's how you kind of regulate your own feelings is if they're okay, then I can be okay too. Yeah, kind of that caretaker mentality. That sums it up pretty well. Okay. But then again, you kind of get left with your own stuff. And even if... If intellectually you're not saying, hey, I feel alone with my feelings too, your body knows it. That's the frustration.
Yeah, I definitely think that. So if we really try to get clear about what that frustration is hoping for, you know, Melissa's frustration is hoping to motivate you or herself or, you know, she's over there trying to have some hope that we can do something differently here. Do you think your frustration is also trying to have some hope? Yeah, I think it's, again, in that moment, it's just want to be on the same page together. I want to be making decisions together, not making those decisions by myself. OK. And so is that frustration maybe more around a hopeless feeling?
Yeah, perhaps.
Does that feel right for you? No, it feels like a road that we've been down before. And I think that that may be kind of contributing to some of that outlessness. It's because I don't know if we've ever been able to effectively navigate it well. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:00:00.814) Okay, and so what might happen if you were in that moment to put words to it and say, hey, I'm kind of frustrated here too. I feel kind of alone here too. I'm scared here too. Like what might happen? The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:00:15.95) Yeah, I mean, I definitely think words would words would have helped, you know, just trying to we're working toward that right But there's also this good reason that maybe you don't put words to it because you've experienced in the past and going into these negative cycles The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:00:35.918) And whether that's because, you know, what words you may have been using that weren't really working or the way Melissa was taking it in, you know, I don't know, we'll work on that. But what I do know is it sounds like maybe in the past you have tried to put words to it and it's just gotten worse. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:00:57.326) Yeah, I mean, it definitely has. Yeah. So what I'm trying to do here is keep bringing attention to the fact that Drew is also struggling emotionally because he doesn't have words for that. He doesn't understand this about himself. He's used to just focusing on getting out of his own experience, fixing the situation around him, keep everyone else okay. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but when it's a problem is when the strategy doesn't work. Because if he doesn't know how to stay with his own inner experience, he won't get help with it in a way that actually works. And he won't be able to help Melissa. He'll try the same thing with Melissa that he tries with himself. Just get her to feel better. Move her away from her distress. And that's a noble intention, to help your partner feel better. But what happens is that he can only help her feel better when he can first meet her in her pain. And for him to be able to do that, he needs to know some things about his own pain. So again, I need for him this early in the therapy to get really clear that he has painful feelings too. And this awareness is going to be a precursor to greater levels of empathy. And then if it gets worse, how's that going to affect the whole situation? How's that gonna affect? Melissa, who's barely hanging on over there. How's that going to affect your son who's needing to feel safe? The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:02:33.518) Yeah, it's going to affect them pretty negatively, that's for sure. I mean, it's not going to lead to anything good or safe or secure. I think it's only going to create a bigger problem. Okay, so then it makes sense to me that that is a pretty hopeless place to be. Yeah. If I say something, it's going to get worse. If I don't say something, you know, it might, it's probably going to get worse. Yeah, I think part of how I probably feel is that it's kind of pointless for me to even try. And so I guess we'll just wait for some time to go by and see what comes of it, which is not a very good plan. Well, it's the only plan that you guys have right now because we haven't learned that third option yet. But let's try some of what that third option is going to look like eventually right now and just tell her, you know, My frustration is because in that moment, I just feel really kind of hopeless that there's anything I can do to make you, me and your son feel okay. You can say his name, you know, or if that feels right, but. Yeah, I mean, I think in that moment, it kind of felt as if no matter what I would do, no matter what I would say to try to calm you down and ensure that he's safe and okay. I don't think I could have gotten through to you. I wanted to, but I just don't know. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:04:20.014) I don't know if I could have. I didn't know what to say. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:04:27.214) to help calm you down. So Drew, I'm going to pause you for just a second and just kind of come back to me here. What I want to know a little bit more about is what it's like for you in that moment to not know if you can get through to her because she's in her place. She's stuck with her own stuff. Like, what is that like for you in that moment? Yeah, I think that's what I want to know. Talk to me here and then I'm going to have you once we kind of understand it and get clear about it, then I want to help you share that with her because I think right now, you know, she might be hearing it as, you know, blaming or something like that. So I want to kind of work on this delivery here. So what is it like for you to not know if you can reach her? The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:05:26.926) The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:05:30.862) Again, I think it just feels like a fruitless effort for me. It's a little bit scary, I would say. Just simply because... The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:05:47.982) Again, I just, I feel alone in that situation and you know, I don't, I don't know what the best, the best move forward is to, to try to correct and make things better, I suppose. I really want to, but I feel kind of trapped. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:06:07.118) And you're a guy who has been really successful in life at knowing what to do. What's it like for you when you don't know what to do to make it okay? Yeah, it's extremely troubling and frustrating when you solve problems for a living and this is one you can't solve in that moment. And it's your family. Is it like a powerless feeling? The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:06:40.334) I would say so. I think it's just, I feel just helpless. So. Yeah. Okay. So that's the feeling word I'm looking for. Helpless. Drew's not used to talking about helpless. He's just used to trying to make the situation change so he doesn't have to feel helpless. And that's not a bad thing in itself. Thank God Drew has become so good at problem solving, challenging situations. That's really helped him be successful in many parts of his life. But wouldn't it be nice if in the process, in situations like this, you know, really hard situation in the hospital, wouldn't it be nice if he and Melissa could remain emotionally safe and connected with each other? Because they both deserve emotional support in these hard times. And being able to put words to the helplessness he sometimes feels is our starting point. And what comes up just as you get clear about that right now that I feel really, really helpless in these moments when I don't know how to fix it and make it okay. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:07:56.622) Yeah, I mean, it makes me feel vulnerable. just in the sense that, you know, I just want to figure out a way to navigate myself out of that situation and navigate my family out of that situation to. just to place the happiness and safety. And I can't do that. But yeah, I mean, that's hard. Yeah, that sounds like the worst place for you is to feel that helpless feeling, like you can't make your people safe. You can't get your people safe and happy. Yeah. And no wonder your body wants to get frustrated, because that's a frustrating thing to happen. You're used to being able to make things okay. You've been really good at that. You bump up against this area where the stakes are the highest. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:08:54.221) and everything can feel like it's kind of falling apart around you and there's nothing you can do and it feels terrible. And just as you, you know, as I put words to this right now, like what happens in your body. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:09:16.142) I - The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:09:20.206) I wouldn't necessarily say it ends up, but just... Is it like a heavy feeling? The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:09:31.31) Like a sad? Yeah, almost just a blanket that kind of It's kind of thrown over you and you just kind of feel like you're sinking. Yeah. OK. Wow. That sounds pretty awful. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:09:54.51) So how does your body, when this comes up in these moments outside of here, right, how does your body try to protect you from how just kind of helpless and heavy and... bad that is. Is that when you just kind of retreat and shut down yourself or? Yeah, I would, I would say I shut down because I don't know if any, like, like I said earlier, I don't know what to say in that moment that it's going to fix things instantly, I suppose. So, I mean, I'm going to, I'm going to kind of go dark for a while until I can. figure it out or until enough time passes by that, you know, can start to remedy remedy, whatever the situation is. So that that's your way shutting down is like the way that you've learned to kind of regulate your own your own bad feelings, your own painful feelings. Yeah, I don't want to lash out. It doesn't feel good to do that and out of frustration and say things you don't mean. So sometimes I just feel it's best not to say anything at all. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:11:17.39) Yeah, if you say something, if you lash out, then, you know, that's going to create more pain for you because then you might go into a fight or a cycle or whatever, or you might cause your son to feel scared. So again, this is all, you know, this shut down place that you go to is all really how you've learned and how your body just sort of naturally without you even thinking about it has learned to regulate all the feelings happening for you. the fear, the helplessness, the heaviness. And do you put words to this often? Just the way we're doing right now. Okay, so why don't you turn to Melissa and just really simply say, you know, that shutdown is my way, my body's way, it's not a conscious thing, of trying to regulate how much pain I'm in in those moments. Yeah, I mean, I think when... I get put into a situation that I'm not able to solve. And when it's a stressful one, especially when you or any of our kids are involved, then obviously I tend to, tend to shut down my, my feelings and kind of just my, my body more or less until I can figure out a way to solve it. If, if at all possible. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:12:52.142) I don't think that ever has led or will lead to anything good. So I think it's just hard for me to kind of reach out to you when things like that happen because it's... The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:13:11.694) not something that I feel. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:13:19.022) Not something that I feel like we've done a good job of being able to do. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:13:29.486) So how is it to put some words to that? It's different. Is it? Well, it's certainly the opposite of shutting down, right? The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:13:44.686) Yeah. And Melissa, what happens to you when you hear him? Put some more words to this. You just see the shutdown, right? And this time he's opening up, engaging a little more. I think it's a huge amount of relief because I... The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:14:08.11) I know that he's feeling something through all of these major things over the last several years, but to see him... put on a front that, you know, just to be so inaccessible and for him to be just avoiding all of it means that I've had to lose that connection and avoid all of it too. So to have, even if it's a hard connection to have, to hear, it still feels like a relief because it's a connection and it's just, you know, it's, even if it's hard, it's nice to Join you in it. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:14:56.142) So I appreciate you looking at him and putting words to that, right? This is the success and being vulnerable, right? And do you notice either of you anything in your body is like a relaxed feeling or a low tension feeling? I feel relief. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:15:25.998) If you could just humor me and tell me maybe where in your body you notice a relief, like where might that energy be if you weren't feeling relief? It's like the same, like I always feel my tension, like tightness in my chest and that's the same place of relief. Beautiful. How about you, Drew? Any, any noticeably not noticeable tension? Yeah, I mean, I definitely just having this conversation feel much more relaxed than I did going in. great. I think being able to kind of put into words some, some thoughts that I think of being, I've been having on repeat for so long is very refreshing. So I think, you know, if anything, I know it's a lot less tension, just chest, shoulders, neck. You know, it's just beautiful. Yeah. I mean, it just feels nice actually. Yeah. So that's what that's what we're going for here. This is co -regulation, right? So if we think about that negative cycle and how it plays out when all this stuff comes up and you two just haven't known what to do with all that material. Right now, I just helped you do some new things with that material. And instead of dysregulating each other and going to those bad places and painful places where you both feel really alone and awful, we were able to do some new stuff here. And now you both feel, are having this co -regulated experience. And that's the beauty of this work. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:17:11.182) I really appreciate you guys being here and doing this with me. Thank you. You're welcome. All right, we'll go ahead and stop there. So there you have it, our first session with Drew and Melissa. So here's what we accomplished in this session. We were able to better understand their negative cycle, which generally plays out like there's a triggering situation. Melissa brings it up in an attempt to find resolution. But since she hasn't found a way to reach Drew in a healthy way, her body takes on pressure and she shows up reactively. So if we name the pressure in her body, anger, we can understand that anger is her body's way of trying to motivate some sort of change, trying to reach him. And yeah, it's not working and we're going to have to figure something out. But right now we're just really trying to understand what is that anger about? What's it trying to do here? So she protests and Drew feels something like, here we go again, he says to himself, I want to help her, but nothing I say to her. will make her feel better, which puts his body in a frustrated state because he has also historically not been able to reach her. And they both need help that they aren't getting and they're both stuck. So she picks up on the frustration and says to herself, what's the point? He can't show up for me and retreats into resentment. Drew feels the resentment, feels even more frustrated and then tries to shut down his emotions as much as possible and just wait until it all blows over. And sometimes their cycles escalate more than others and their cycles can start over anything like we heard from them, from houseplants to hospitalization. It doesn't really matter because underneath it all is the same thing, unmet attachment needs and emotional and safety. So if you're listening in and relating to this and wanting to do something this work on your own, your homework for this week is trying to understand more about your own negative cycle in your relationship. The Secure Love Podcast with Julie Menanno (01:19:17.39) You can find a PDF to help you out with that at thesecurerelationship .com. That PDF will help you map this out. And you can also check out chapter five of my book, Secure Love, which is all about this work and stabilizing negative cycles. For those who are interested, the first part of the book also describes attachment theory and the attachment styles in detail. So again, that's Secure Love by Julie Menanno. It's available wherever. books are sold. And thank you all. I'm really looking forward to picking back up next week. And I just want to give a special thank you to our lovely, brave couple, Melissa and Drew for doing this work and being vulnerable for everyone here. So we can all learn from this experience and grow. All right, goodbye, everyone. See you next week.
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