Facing the Inner Critic: Moving from Shame to Vulnerability
In this episode
Julie Menanno guides Drew, the avoidant partner, into the shame work at the heart of his inner critic, the voice that insists he is not enough and must get everything right. He begins naming these shame parts instead of hiding them, and practices vulnerability even when it comes out imperfectly. Melissa responds with empathy, showing how a couple can heal shame together rather than let it fuel their negative cycle.
Key takeaways
- Shame is rooted in early relationship messages and can be healed through new messages partners give each other.
- The inner critic's demand to 'always get it right' drives avoidance and self-isolation; naming it loosens its grip.
- Vulnerability doesn't have to be expressed perfectly to be real and connecting.
- Shame parts don't define you; most people carry many confident parts alongside them.
- A partner's empathy can turn shame from a driver of negative cycles into an opportunity to bond.
Read the full transcript
Hi everybody and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author of Secure Love, book, Julie Menanno. And of course I'm joined with our brave, lovely real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're jumping into episode nine. So as a recap, Melissa and Drew started off our therapy in an anxious avoidant relationship, Melissa anxious, Drew avoidant, finding themselves stuck in chronic negative cycles of communication and they had moments of connection.
But a lot of their time or at least too much of their time for their own good was spent either fighting or just kind of ignoring problems in order to avoid fights. And now we're nine sessions in and things are much, much better. for Melissa and Drew. Melissa is less anxious, Drew is less avoidant.
They have fewer negative cycles and when they do, they're able to bounce back quickly. Now that they have a stable negative cycle, we're in a deeper phase of the work where a lot of my focus is on Drew. And when I feel that Drew is fully emotionally engaged with himself and has developed a secure attachment with his own self and feelings, I will shift over to deeper work with Melissa. And so last week we opened up shame work with Drew, which I'll be doing in five parts.
The first of which is finding the fears surrounding the shame. For Drew, this is the fear of loss of what he holds so dear, which is his relationship with Melissa and his fears surround not just the loss of her physically, but even the loss of what he expressed as the integrity of their connection, which would be devastating for him. And with this fear named, we can now start to dive into the next part of the shame work, which is helping Drew name the part of himself that believes there's something just fundamentally wrong with him that is the reason he's unable to get all of this right. The part that doesn't view himself through a lens of understanding, but through a lens of, I'm just not enough.
And that is the shame. And I always like to reiterate with shame work that these shame parts don't define anyone. Most people with shame also have many confident parts. But we do need to find these shame parts.
These parts that say, there's just something broken or bad about me, so I need to go hide. I need to hide this from people. And people go to all sorts of lengths and all sorts of ways to hide these parts of them that they just believe are just fundamentally unacceptable. And these parts can, for some people, they can be hard to find.
For some people, they can be very deeply buried under anger and blame, which says, you know, this isn't about me being broken or unworthy or unlovable. This is because they're a bad partner. And there's truth to the anger and blame too. None of this work is either or.
You you can have shame parts even when you have a partner who is very much contributing to relationship problems. And anyway, the shame parts can exist even when we have other confident parts, even when there are other layers to the situation. And shame needs to be seen and named so we can heal it because shame is a contributor to negative cycles. And wouldn't it be nice if there wasn't any toxic shame continuing to show up in negative cycles.
And so right now we're doing this work to help Drew heal his shame and to help Melissa help Drew heal his shame also because this isn't just self work we're doing here. It's also partner work. Shame is rooted in relationship messages, especially during childhood when one's sense of self is developing most rapidly. And shame can be healed with relationship messages later in life, messages we begin to give ourselves and messages partners give each other.
So again, right now we're in the early exploration part of this shame work with Drew. And speaking of childhood issues, yes, all of this shame stuff and attachment stuff, which all overlaps is ultimately rooted in unresolved childhood wounds that are replaying and worsened in romantic relationships. And we will definitely get to some of that childhood material with Drew when the timing is right. This therapy I'm doing is emotional in nature, and it's a slow build.
And it would have been very easy. all the way back to our first session for me to talk to Melissa and Drew about their childhoods and say, you know, so look, this happened in your childhood and now it's playing out in your relationship. so now, you know, now that you know that, just do things differently and we're all done with the therapy. And making those connections is very, very important.
Don't get me wrong. And I'll be doing that, but... What I just described is it's just intellectual information. I'm going to be doing this childhood work with them in a way that's not just intellectual information.
It's a part of deeper emotionally engaged work. And I'm going to use their childhood material as part of a broader healing process and part of a broader bonding process between Melissa and Drew to help them help each other in their healing process. to be honest, there was a time in my career where I spent a lot more time on childhood issues than I do now. And I continue to spend time on childhood issues.
It's an essential part of this work. But what I found is that there's a much more efficient way to do childhood work, part of which is timing it right, that doesn't require, you know, kind of years on end of therapy. Okay, so we'll jump into the session now, but if you're wanting to do some shame work with your partner, you you recognize some of it is there and maybe you've worked on your shame with yourself, but you'd like to add in some partner shame work, which I believe adds a powerful layer to shame work, which is why I do couples work. So I will be doing a segment on using shame to bond.
in my upcoming four-hour couples workshop on September 28th. So check out my website, thesecurerelationship .com for more info on that. And I also have some free of charge homework up on my website to correspond with this work we're doing in this session. All right, so let's jump into episode nine.
All right, well, welcome. How was the week? It's hard to believe it's been a week, first of all. The week is always good.
It's always the weekend. Sure. Yeah. Well, you guys have so much going on during the weekend.
have very active lives. Yeah. With family and... For sure.
Definitely active. Well, did you notice any positive shifts? Start off? True.
I don't know if this week really stood out in terms of like anything too positive. I don't know. I feel like it really did fly by pretty quick. I think it's much more effective and I'm not trying to replay something I've stated before, but it's definitely more effective when we're able to sit down and work through something a little more constructively.
I think the communication is a little more there. Okay, so. You didn't notice anything positive, but you did notice that maybe there were some moments where you were able to be a little more constructive with each other. Yeah, I I definitely think that.
So maybe, go ahead, Melissa. I disagree. Okay, let's hear it. I think so.
Yesterday, we had a huge disagreement and it was another situation where like, we started out with a negative cycle and you know, it's kind of one that we've had several times over the years. And it went horribly and then we were able to sort of pause, take a few minutes to cool off, come back and try it again. And then it went incredibly positively when you know, we circled back to it a second time. And I think that's definitely a new pattern for us.
Great. So you were going down this terrible road, and then all of a sudden, you kind of figured it out, or both of you realized together, hey, let's take a break here. Let's regroup. And then you came back.
And that kind of helped you go forward in a different way. Yeah. And what was that different way, if you could tell me, like... What did each of you do differently from that after the regroup that helped you go down that new path?
I think for me, was able to, you know, like the work we've been doing in here, instead of just that constant, like, we need to fix this. We have to fix it right now. It's such an emergency. You know, I'm panicking.
I'm panicking. I was able to more clearly name, Hey, the thing that I'm feeling right now is hurt and sad. you know, it's, I'm not, this isn't about criticism or, you know, any of the other things that this isn't about the thing that we're disagreeing about. I'm sad right now.
And I think that really, you know, drew instead of his typical solve it, defend against it, make it go away, he chose to soften in that moment and say, okay, I... I see that and I realize that and I want to understand that and I want to talk about that and you know, I think he actually admitted some things that he was feeling too like I'm I'm struggling. So it's a cycle that we've had before, where I feel like... I'm always the bad guy and pestering and having to ask for this, that and the other thing.
And I don't want to tell you, you can't have fun and you can't do this and that. And it just leads to defensiveness from Drew. Like, well, when can I relax? And when can I go have fun?
I think this was one of the first times where we realized like, we're not talking about going out with friends. not talking about having fun. We're talking about, feel sad because I feel like if I were good enough, I wouldn't have to ask. And that's what I'm struggling with.
And he's struggling with like, I have a lot going on and I'm not dealing really well with how stressed out I am. And you know, I'm not asking for support in good ways and It was just a really good moment when we came back the second time of, we're not really fighting about the real thing. Let's talk about what's going on. Let's actually be here for each other.
And it was the first time that instead of a band-aid, we actually got to... like the root cause of how we could be there for each other and make actual progress. Wow. So that's really something to celebrate because Melissa, you were able to come in with that softer, more vulnerable part of you instead of from this panicky place.
And then Drew, you were able to kind of do something new too, which is just kind of be there with her in that and put words to your own experience, which is so important, which is I'm struggling in here too. And I realized that I haven't been kind of handling my own stuff in the healthiest way possible. OK, so Julie popping in here. So we're talking about emotional work here, but Melissa mentioned something about the content of their conflict, which had to do with Drew wanting to go spend some time with friends.
And some of you are probably wondering. Yeah, you know, this emotional work sounds great, but what do they do in situations where they have different ideas? Like what Melissa is describing now. I would call this a theme of, my wants versus your wants.
Melissa wants more family time. Drew is at work a lot, so she's home with the kids, and Drew enjoys his family time, but he also craves downtime with friends. And who was right? Who was wrong?
Nobody really. Both are healthy wants. Sometimes there are clear right and wrong answers, but most of the time that's not the case. And so now what?
Well, first we must do the emotional work here, because without emotional harmony, closeness, and the ability to talk about hard things outside of negative cycles, can't expect to resolve anything. But then, even when they are feeling safe with each other and close to each other, There will be disagreements about how to live and decisions to make and where to put our time and energy and money sometimes. so what do partners do? Well, they have to start working as a team.
And that sounds something like, you know, we both have needs and wants. Sometimes they're different. But in the big picture, we care about each other's well-being and we want to help each other be fulfilled and safe and at peace and how can we work together here? For Drew, you know, he might say, hey, our family and you are what I value most and it's important to me to protect our connection.
And at the same time, getting some time with my friends helps me feel filled up and connected to the world in a different way. And that helps me be my best self, including as a husband and dad? And do you think that we can work together on this? And for Melissa, that might sound like, Drew, I want to protect both of our needs to have downtime.
And your needs are so important to me. And at the same time, right now, we're in this spot where the kids are young, and I need you more than ever, and this can be a lonely job. And so as we figure this out in a way that works for both of us, what's going to help me feel safe? is knowing that you'll put us first.
And I don't know if those are the perfect words. know, all couples are different, but I do know that couples who work together to figure out hard things are willing and able to advocate for their own needs, and they're willing to be flexible and work with each other and protect not just their own agendas, but each other's. And when couples have a tight bond and aren't tearing each other apart in these negative cycles, this is just so much easier. Okay, so back into Drew where I'm going to follow up with him about what helped him communicate more vulnerably with Melissa when they were able to escape this negative cycle.
And what helped you, Drew, to be able to show up in that way? I think when we came back around, was more or less just really focusing on kind of the topic at hand instead of trying to do, know, for me, it's always like, you know, trying to have conversation, but, you know, I'm doing something else like multitasking or whatever the case may be. This particular case, it was packing for our upcoming kind of vacation. So, you know, it was like, hey, let's just take 10, 15 minutes and really just focus on this conversation and kind of, you know, more or less validate how each other feels and then let's work through that a bit.
And that's kind of the approach and, you know, it was like, you know, the option of, do we defer it to later? And we both agreed, no, I mean, let's do this now. That's kind of how it played out. did you both, after you walked away, were both of you feeling a little more seen and heard and understood and comforted?
Okay. Yeah, definitely. Okay. And then how did that play out as far as whatever started this negative cycle to begin with?
Did you find that you were able to kind of manage the external situation a little more easily when you were able to come together? Yeah, I think for me it felt like we definitely managed the initial situation plus a whole lot more. This situation comes up time and time again in a hundred different ways because we'll bicker about it in so many different ways, but we never really make it to the core issue. So it felt so good to make like...
actual progress with it. Right. And that core for you is something around this sad feeling that you get because there's this little voice in you saying, if I were enough, then I wouldn't have to be fighting for this. Yeah.
And you were able to put some words to that. Yeah. And then Drew, I want to understand a little bit more about what was going on with you. And I think I mentioned to you guys that we're moving into this part of the therapy.
where I'm going to be spending more time with Drew. And then when that's done, I'll switch over here and spend more time with you, Melissa, especially talking about this part of you that you've been walking around with that says, well, maybe I'm not enough. And again, I always like to say that part doesn't define you. But do you mind if I kind of keep doing some of this work with Drew?
OK. All right. And Drew, again, it doesn't mean that you're more of a problem or that there's anything wrong with you, it just means that's how this therapy goes. Great.
Yeah, I know, right? I know, right? And it's always nice to laugh and kind of come up for error a bit. Because this is heavy stuff.
It is. It's heavy and it's hard. And so just a couple of things coming to my mind, and you said something important just now, or Melissa actually said it, where you were able to say, I haven't been supporting myself in the best way. I haven't been.
I'm having a hard time managing a lot of the stress that I'm dealing with. And is that kind of a new awareness that you've had? because of the last couple of sessions. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that's been a huge contributing factor.
And when you say contributing factor, just, you know, can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean? Yeah, just new approaches to how I kind of think about whatever the concern is at hand or what cycle we're falling back into. I think it's really helping me kind of rewire my approach to not only how I process it myself internally, but how I communicate with Melissa. And so, you know, let's say in the past, you might just have some feelings come up, maybe not be so aware of them.
And then that's when you might, I don't know, like kind of get defensive or just sort of shut it down or shut it down first. And then if she keeps coming, then you might start to get defensive. Yeah, definitely. I I've avoided it for, you know, just investing, investing kind of the time and the emotion to really try to get to the root cause of it and resolve it with, with Melissa.
Yeah. Sure. Okay. And so now you're starting to recognize that, Hey, I've got a lot of stuff going on in here too.
And maybe I actually need some help with this stuff too. And maybe that would help. our cycle in many different ways. One way is that you don't have to be alone with whatever's happening with you and try to escape it.
And then the second benefit would be that once you're more aware of kind of what's happening with you and are able to help yourself, that's going to help you be better at helping Melissa. And then the third benefit is then you can invite Melissa in to actually help you. So again, you don't have to be alone with it. And then Melissa, you get invited in and get the opportunity to support him.
And how great will that feel? Which I think is what you guys experienced in this example that you're giving me. Because Drew, you were able to say, I start to struggle too. And then Melissa, did that give you a feeling of, he's putting some words to this.
I can actually help him out right here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. OK, great.
All right, well, that's what we're moving towards here for sure is just using these triggers and these cycles as an opportunity to come together and help each other. And there's so much bonding in that. so Drew, you know what just keeps coming to my mind about our work last week is that, you you were able to put to words how devastating it would be for you to not just, what I thought really touched me was it was like, And you came, this was 100 % from you. You said, it's not just the thought of losing you that would be so devastating.
It's the thought of losing the integrity of our connection. And that tells me that that connection is so valuable to you. It's not just about wanting to keep the relationship together. It's like, don't want to lose my partner, my friend.
There's just something so emotionally powerful to me about that wording. Yeah, I think we've really built over the last 10 years of being married, just when things are going well, it's because we're both... really connected kind of emotionally. And it's a feeling that when it's not there, it's apparent.
And that's what leads to a lot of those cycles of irritability and defensiveness and avoidance. so again, mean, rewiring how I think and approach some of this, think, is not easy. But like this past weekend showed it. There's benefit in it.
Like real benefit. Yes. Right. Your life is actually getting better.
Yeah, I mean, the connection, you you think, I don't know, it's almost like you're, that connection is growing deeper between the two of us because of the, and I think it's because of the shared vulnerability in terms of how we feel and kind of staying in that for just a little bit before we like jump into how do we solve this? You both are experiencing a lot of success around vulnerability. Okay, Julie here. So what we're talking about is the difference between emotional abandonment and physical abandonment.
When people hear the term fear of abandonment, they usually think of physical abandonment only. And that can be confusing because many partners know they aren't at the risk of maybe losing their partner physically or the relationship actually ending. or that they're going to get physically left by their partner, but still the fear and needs exist. And this is because emotional disconnection is its own form of abandonment, being emotionally alone, feeling emotionally invalidated, unsupported, misunderstood, unseen, unheard.
These are devastating hard places to be, whether you're physically with someone or not. So when Drew talks about the fear of losing the integrity of their connection, he's speaking to emotional abandonment. And it's great that Drew, as the avoidant partner, is the one putting words to this, which is his movement toward secure attachment. It's coming alive, you know, right now before your eyes.
Okay, so back into Drew. And then you said another thing that, or, I'm sorry, I don't think you said this, but this is something that just kept popping in my mind is that like nobody has ever seen you in this place that you go to when that disconnection is alive. That's just not a place that you're used to putting words to, right? I mean, the narrative has always been, I've got to show up better for Melissa.
I've got to show up better for Melissa. And of course there's truth to that. That in the process we've been missing so much of you. and what comes up for you just to hear me put some words to that.
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely some lost time, I guess, to some degree. Like I just said, I mean, we've been together for almost 10 years, so to be tackling it now is a good thing, but I really wish I would have recognized it sooner. Yeah, both of you have mentioned that a couple times, that there's a sense of loss, that we haven't got so far away from each other and just haven't been able to find our way back. and we're glad we're doing it, but so can you tell me a little bit more about the loss?
Like what comes up just to start putting words to, yeah, there is a sense of loss here. Yeah, I don't know. I think kind of what comes up a little bit is, again, it's kind of the depth of that emotional connection with one another. And at times it's how much of How much time has gone by where we've avoided it or just been complacent with that connection, although a bit artificial perhaps, depending on kind of what's going on between the two of us.
And it's just something we keep putting off. I mean, that's, yeah, I don't want say like it's regret, but I guess a little bit of it it is. Julie jumping in here. So this is where I'm going to jump back into our shame work.
I'm going to use his dancing around this word regret to move into the negative beliefs that he carries about himself. They're there. I'm not inventing them. Most people have them.
I'm just here to find them and more importantly, find ways to heal them. As long as Drew is carrying around this unexpressed shame, it will continue to show up in negative cycles and haunt their relationship. Let's just say something goes wrong in the family. One of the kids is struggling, for example, and Drew's shame wells up and says, maybe it's my fault.
Maybe my child is struggling because I failed in some way. And look, here I go again, not getting it right. And if that's the case, then, you know, all these bad things are going to happen in the future. And I'm going to have to stand here just feeling like a failure.
Then his nervous system gets overwhelmed with all of this and he shuts down emotionally to deal with the overwhelm. And then Melissa senses his retreat and she feels confused and alone and bam, they're in their negative cycle and the shame is driving the car, at least on Drew's end of the equation. And the goal would be for it to look more like this when we start to get this stuff healed. know, something goes wrong as they do in all families sometimes.
Going back to our example, the child is struggling and there's a problem that needs attention. And Drew doesn't go, subconsciously go to this place of shame, which is, you know, this is because I'm a failure. He doesn't go there in whole or in part because He's learned to understand himself in a new way. And the fear and the bad energy around the shame and these old negative self-beliefs don't hijack his nervous system.
And instead, he's more clear-headed and doesn't need to shut down his pain. Like, that's the difference between healed shame and unhealed shame. And another option to add to that is that he might even reach to Melissa for help. in that moment, which is recognizing what's happening inside of him.
here's that shame welling up, which he is going to learn to do eventually in this therapy. And that might sound like, hey, this is the part where I'm starting to feel this shame creep in, like that voice. You know me, Melissa, I have that voice inside of me that sometimes says, I'm not capable of all this. So can you help me out here?
Can you just remind me that? That's not true and can you help me out of this place? But for that to be possible and for that to stick, for those kinds of conversations to be possible and to stick, we need to keep working through the shame in here. And we are still early into that work.
Like I said in the introduction, I do this shame work in five steps. And last week he put words to some of the fears surrounding the shame. And this week, doing what I'm doing now, we're finding more of it, and I'm going to maybe try to get him to honor the shame, and we'll talk more about what that even means later, and then possibly start to confront the shame. And so let's see how this plays out now.
So on one hand, there's some feeling like, you know, just probably some sadness around just the fact that we lost some time here. And then... On top of that, maybe some regret. Yeah, I mean, that's really what resonates with me.
-hmm. Okay. And then I guess my next direction I'd like to go with you is like... You know, I know what we're really trying to do here is make sense of this in the context of, you you guys haven't known what to do.
You haven't known how to get yourself out and find each other. But then is there this other part of you that makes sense of it like, well, what's wrong with me that I wasn't able to figure this out sooner? Yeah, I think that that holds weight and there's some truth to that. Okay, can we talk to that part?
Yeah. You know, just, okay. I think it's important to get to know that part. What does that part have to say?
Like, what is it about you? I mean, you just talking to this insecure part again, this part doesn't define you. You've got all these confident parts. And you have a lot of evidence to believe that, you know, that you're capable and a good man and a good partner and all those things are true.
But I'd like to know if we're just kind of... talking to this insecure part, like what does that insecure part say about you that you haven't been able to figure this out? Yeah, I think I primarily avoided that. Yeah.
Because it's just hard truth, something difficult to face and accept. I don't think I've ever really faced it head on. I've always just kind of band-aided it for now. kept saying and it was getting better, but empty words, empty, empty thoughts.
So there was something that you were band-aiding, something that you were not wanting to face. What is that? You know, if we learn more about what is it that you were not wanting to face, what is it that you were needing to put a band-aid over? What was that wound?
What was that belief? Yeah, I think it, I think what kind of comes to mind is just whether or not. whether or not like I'm actually like good enough if I'm a good person, know, trying to be somebody I'm not. Okay.
A little bit. So I guess just a couple of things jumping out at me there. Yeah. And I notice as you say that, something came across your face like a, how do I put, how do I describe it almost like?
It's so hard to say that your face kind of, I don't know if like smiled a little bit, but like kind of dismissive, like your face kind of dismissed the words that you were saying. It's hard to, hard to convey this, but I think part of it is, you know, it's, it's, it's obvious I've been running from this for quite some time. So, you know, you almost lose a sense of identity a bit because it's never really defined kind of who I am as a, as a person. So I don't know if that makes sense, but You know what, it doesn't need to make sense right now.
You're talking through it, so let's just keep trying to put some more words to it. How could you possibly make sense of it right now? We're just exploring it for the first time. Yeah.
I mean, that's really You're doing a great job, first of all. You're doing a great job. These are the parts of you that you've never talked about before. Yeah, I think for me it's really just identifying kind of who I am as a person in my heart.
No, just tended to run away from that quite often over the years. I do always want to blend in with others around you. So, you know, don't draw attention to yourself for whatever reason. And that's kind of been my MO for quite a long time, I think.
Wow. I mean, you're putting some words to some really, really big stuff here. Yeah. And you said you've been running away for so long from this idea that what, that you've said a few things, but like I'm not even a good person.
I don't fit in. mean, those are two really painful, painful places to be. Yeah, I mean, I think a little bit of self-confidence as well. Okay.
And just, you know, like I said, I mean, just kind of not thinking whether or not like I'm good enough. So, you know, the comment about like needing to kind of blend in, to fit in with others is really just not to draw that out. to draw out that you're not enough. Right.
Yeah. And then, you know, I'm just curious, like, what about you in this part of you isn't enough? What does that lie have to say? And I'm not sure how to answer that right now.
OK. Does it feel like you don't know the words or does it feel just really, really scary to use the words? Not necessarily, but it's fear. I think it's just being able to kind of convey it the right way.
Well, what we do know is that you have been, for a really long time, you've been running away from this idea that you're not enough, that you don't fit in. that there's something about you that's just flawed or broken. And what would be different for you if this wasn't true? Like if you weren't just kind of flawed or broken and again, we're just talking to this part of you, what would be different in your life?
think it's just a source of confidence that I've had that I guess hasn't occurred to me naturally to have that source of confidence. I think I've always tried to artificially inflate it a bit. Okay. You know.
Okay. And what comes up just as we're putting some words here? What are you feeling? very vulnerable.
Yeah. little bit tight in my chest and and Yeah, I mean, it's just causing my head to be a little cloudy and feeling a bit confused because these are nothing I've ever shared before. Sure. Well, let's just kind of slow down with it then and take some of the pressure off.
Maybe just tell me, you know, let's try to linger in that tightness in your chest and your stomach. Maybe just close your eyes and let's just kind of tap into that. Yeah, I mean, it's a scary feeling. You're used to just kind of overriding that feeling and keep going, keep pushing through.
And that's what you're doing right now. And so maybe what we should do here is just talk a little more about the scared. What's scary right now? What happens if you put all these words out there and you start exploring this part of you?
Is that like an exposure? that, you know, what happens? Yeah, I mean, it's just, hard to put words to it. I mean, I guess it's a scary feeling to not feel like you're good enough.
Yeah. And part of the way that I've kind of reacted to that over the years is, you know, A, to run away from it a bit, but B, you know, there's glimmers of... proving others wrong and that I am. But that's kind of the source of it, I feel.
It sounds like you've been doing a lot of work. sounds pretty exhausting. You've been working really hard. to get a sense inside of you that you're actually good enough.
And then on top of that, if it's not bad enough in itself to have this part that feels like, I'm not good enough, then on top of that, it's scary to not feel not good enough. What happens if you just don't feel good enough the rest of your life? What happens? What's so scary about that?
It just feels empty. I think that's probably a little bit why I focus so much on... You know, focus so much on others. You know, so I don't have to face that I suppose.
What about focusing on others helps keep you safe from that empty place and that not good enough place? What happens if you don't focus on others? It's okay to not know here. It really is.
We're just not, it's okay to not know here. We're just not knowing together. Yeah, I don't know. I think the only thing that ran through my head is just it's sense of purpose.
I mean, it's wanting to be there for others. I think the way that, you know, I've always wanted somebody to be there for me, and that gives me purpose to, you know, be able to. to be there for, you know, Melissa and my kids and, you know, my family around me. could matter otherwise.
I mean, that's kind of where my head's at. So is that how you've been, you know, that's one of the ways that you can maybe get a sense of I'm good enough here, maybe a sense of self-confidence. If I can just focus on getting it right for all of them, and I get it right for all of them, then how are you going to feel about you? Like it's somewhat filling that need for purpose to a degree.
And if you have that purpose, then you don't have to feel empty. And there's a lot of truth to that. We all need purpose. We all want to take care of our people that we love.
That's what love is, is wanting to take care of our people. Yeah. But somehow, even no matter how hard you've tried to do that, that feeling of emptiness still kind of lingers. And whoever gets to help you with that feeling.
That feeling of emptiness that you're saying is kind of related to. this part of you that. does kind of always wonder if I'm good enough or if I fit in. That part gets left alone.
No wonder there's emptiness there. That part truly is alone. Yeah, I mean, it just creates a lot of self-tell. And I wonder if you could just, you know, tell Melissa, what do think it would be like to share some of this with her?
Have you ever talked about this before? Not quite in this level of detail. Would you be willing to share some now that we've explored it a bit and have a little more clarity around it? Let's just see if we can create an experience right now where you don't have to be alone.
You don't have to just make sure she's okay and everyone else is okay. to help that part of you that feels empty. Now we can get some help for that part. And we do that by just sharing about it.
So if you could just share with her what we're talking about here that yeah, there is this part of me that has always felt maybe I'm just not good enough. And there's a lot of emptiness around that. I think over the years I've maybe portrayed myself differently than how I really felt. Always wanted to kind of turn my attention to other others and I don't think I've ever really done a good job of really expressing how I've felt deep down.
Okay, Julie jumping in here. So, bam, do you see how quickly that shame flares up. I'm trying to get him to be with his feelings, know, sit with them and he's doing such a great job. And then when it comes time to share, here it comes again.
Haven't done a good job. It happened so quick. That part of him that wants to focus on how he's been getting it wrong and sure, there's truth to that. He hasn't been good at sharing it because nobody ever taught him how to, but that's been his safe.
place his whole life. Look at what I'm getting wrong and do better. And this is a different kind of work I'm needing him to do to get better, where he finds safety in a new way and a way that's more about comfort and support just for being a human with painful feelings, meeting himself where he is instead of constantly focusing on improve, fix it, be better. And like I've said many times, the better he gets at this for himself, the better he's going to be at sitting with Melissa's feelings too and showing up for her.
And there's the improvement he's looking for. I just have a different way of getting him there. And if you're relating to this at home, you recognize this part of you that says, you're getting it wrong, you're getting it wrong, and it flares up. See if you can just catch it and say to yourself, Wow, that happened so fast.
So let's see if what I helped Drew do with this shame part that just flared up right in front of us. Because if you've been listening for long enough, you know I'm not going to ignore it. That's what Drew's nervous system wants to do right here. Just ignore it, push through it, keep talking.
Instead, I'm going to teach him how to honor this shame and get to know more about what the shame part is trying to do for him. It's not random. Shame has a function. Yes, we need to confront that function, but it has an important function and we need to know more about that.
So let's go back in. So Drew, I want you to turn back to me because I noticed something really important that just happened. You know, we're talking about these feelings that you've been carrying around, these really hard, painful places where, you know, and I think everybody can relate to these places on some level, which is, am I really good enough? Do I really fit in here?
And then you said, that's an empty place for you. There's probably a lot of other feelings around that that we haven't put words to yet. But then when you go to share that, you kind of default back to, I haven't been very good. I haven't been very good about.
You go into the kind of task place. instead of just focusing on this experience of being there with yourself and helping invite Melissa into this place. and I want to know more about what happens right there. What are you hoping for when you say, I haven't been good enough?
Yeah, it's just, it's hard to put words around to say it the right way. the right way. see there it comes again. then I know you might be getting some mixed messages here because...
I'm also wanting you to word it in a certain way. But for me, it's not the difference between right and wrong. It's the difference between. just getting help for how hard this has been for you without reframing it as beating yourself up.
It's so easy for you to beat yourself up even when we're sitting here talking about how hard it's been for you for your whole life. to walk around feeling like you aren't enough. Even just talking about this place sends your mind into, here's another good reason why I'm not enough because I haven't been good enough at talking about it. That tells me how hard it is for you and how big this part of you is that I'm not getting it right.
I'm not enough, I'm not enough, I'm not enough. almost like that place is kind of perpetually driving the car. And how does that part keep you safe? How does it keep you safe to kind of always be looking out for how you're getting it wrong?
It's not random, right? There's a good reason for it. Yeah, I think I'm just struggling to convey it. We don't have to convey it right now.
just want to know more about why this part of you, first of all, do we agree here that there is this part of you that always is in this voice inside of you that's always talking about what you're getting wrong, what you're getting wrong. how to do better, how to do better. Yeah, most definitely. Yeah, and so I want to know, like, how is that part trying to help you?
How does that part? Why is it there? Why does it need to be there? What is the safety in that?
Is that how you motivate yourself to keep going? Is that how you motivate yourself to figure it all out and fix the problem? Yeah, I think it's kinda how I'm wired. I mean, just to...
Yeah, sorry, just... feel like I'm thinking out loud, but. I would say it is a way for me to kind of self-motivate myself to get better. Depending on what it is, it's just...
Yeah, I don't know whether it's me by default just always saying that I'm not good enough or that, you know, I'm failing. in order to, I guess in my own mind, break whatever the problem is or whatever it is that's going on down to its root to be able to really understand it. And knowing that I might not get it right the first time. See, that's a part of it, but I like I didn't, like I'm not really getting it, not able to really articulate it the way I'd like to.
You see that there's that part showing up right now. that even comes in and says, I'm not getting it right right now. And this is all so new. I would not expect you to have all the words to articulate it.
That's why we have to be here doing this. And isn't it great that you can be here now kind of trying to get to know more about this? You're telling me some important things that this part of you that has comes in so fast. I mean, we've seen it come in so fast just in here in the last few minutes, which is I'm not doing it right.
I'm not articulating it right. I'm not. And that's your, that has been your way of getting it right. That's, you said that's been the way that I motivate myself.
And I don't want to take away from the strength in that, that has helped you become better and better at lots of different areas of life. I just want to talk about the parts of that that is kind of getting in the way of the emotional world and the relationship world. but we're learning that that part has a real good reason. That's how you learn to do okay, do well, be good enough, get it right, keep things going.
All right, Julie here again. This is where I'm helping him honor the shame by understanding the function of it. Like, we're not fighting shame with more shaming. We're not shaming the shame.
We're saying, hey, shame, I see you, I get you. You've kept me safe. You've kept me going when I needed you because nobody was around teaching me how to be motivated in other healthier ways that built me up instead of tearing me down. And I need to know more about what messages Drew received growing up that created this shame.
And we'll get there. But for now, we're going to take some time to honor it before we start confronting it. If I were doing individual work with Drew alone, I'd probably have him talk directly to his own shame right now. Say something like what I just said.
You know, I see you, I get you, I understand you. You had to be, that's how we've kept going. But since we're doing couples work, I'm wanting to help them help each other. So by having Drew share with Melissa, I'm serving the dual purpose of him understanding his shame and letting Melissa in on it too so she can be support.
And this is what I love about couples work is that partners get to do their individual work together. All right, let's pop back in. And I would like for you just right now to just tell Melissa this, that there's this part of me that's beating myself up all the time. That part exists because that's what's been motivating me this whole time, to get better, to do better.
I mean, there's definitely part of me that is very, hard on myself. Constantly want to be better to do better. And it's been really difficult to manage that, especially over the last 10 or so years. And we just want to share that with you right now.
And that's really, really difficult to say. You're doing a great job, Drew. And Melissa, how is this touching your heart just to hear him finding these parts of himself and showing these parts to you that he's never talked about before? No one's ever seen him in this place.
I imagine that feels really pretty, helps you feel pretty close. Yeah, it's so, so incredibly connecting and it's like a huge sense of... Just relief, like such a weight off. Like it's just so...
instantly instantly connecting. It's really really wonderful to hear that and I appreciate it. Are you noticing just kind of maybe feeling some sadness for him or some empathy for him? Yeah, there's definitely a lot of sadness, a lot of empathy, a lot of...
loss. think about how many years, like I want to be able to be here for you in this moment. And I want to be able to go back over all the years and be there for you in those moments. you know, I don't, you can't do that, but I don't want there to be more moments where, you know, it's not I just don't want you to have to do that by yourself.
So that's really, really, really beautiful. that you are really showing up for him right now in a way that you've never been able to. And Drew, how does it feel right now for you to not only put this to words and get to know more about yourself and show up for yourself a little more, but also to have Melissa saying, wow, not only do I want to be here to help you right now, but I actually want to be here to help you for the rest of your life. Feels like genuine connection.
Yeah. Both internally and externally, but relieving as well to be able to work through this. Why don't you guys just kind of hug each other and... Does this feel like the right time?
Okay, so Julie here, and while they hug each other, I just want to point out how this narrative is shifting from this narrative that anxious and avoidant partners get stuck in, which is the anxious partner, in this case, Melissa, needs all the emotional support, and the avoidant partner, in this case, Drew, needs to just get better at being emotionally supportive, and then everything will be okay. And that's the old narrative and we're shifting into this new narrative, which is, look, they both need emotional support. And part of what feels supportive for the anxious partner is actually getting a chance to be the supportive one. And part of what feels safe for the avoidant partner isn't just knowing how to be supportive, but also getting support.
It all works together. It's balancing out. And this, people, is secure attachment. Melissa, you have a smile on your face.
Can you just tell me what's happening in your body right now as you experience this? Yeah, it's so much relief. I think when you've been begging someone in whatever unhealthy ways I've been using for how many years, just trying so hard to be connected and you you just, you finally hear the person you love share so vulnerably. mean, it makes me so sad.
I don't want that for you, but it's so connecting and it's so relieving. knowing for all this time that you've been struggling but not being able to help. It's a horrible feeling to watch someone you love suffer and not be able to be there for them. So to actually have the ability to say, here is a way that I can be here for you because now we know a little bit more about what you're struggling with.
That's a relief. That's very connecting. So I want to know more. You're saying some important stuff here, which is, yeah, this feels so good.
And it's also been really, really hard. Some stuff is coming up for me that is talking about how hard it's been for you to not be able to reach him. And we're going to talk more about that. Yeah, right.
And right now, you're having this experience where you are able to reach him. and be there for him and feel some of what's going on with him. And it feels really, really good to be able to show up for him. Right?
Sometimes what we learn is being able to show up for each other is actually, or being able to truly show up for our partner feels almost like they're showing up for us because we're being let in. And Drew, what's happening in your body right now? Just to have a lot of success with this vulnerable part of you. that doesn't have to be alone forever.
And it's a new experience. So I think it's a lot of thoughts. Well, let me ask you this. You said a few minutes ago that you had a tight in your stomach and your chest and your head was feeling kind of cloudy.
How's that? Yeah, I mean, don't feel that at the moment, but... Yeah, I mean, it just feels new. Okay.
So it's just hard to get my head around, but it's a good new. Okay. All right, I want to try to just tweak something here, which is I'm really hoping we don't walk away from this experience, Drew, with you feeling guilty because of all the years that you weren't letting her in. So can we try to, if some of those feelings are coming up, can we try to just maybe table those for next time?
Is some of that coming up? Am I reading that? Yeah, mean, definitely. Definitely feel that a bit.
OK, all right. So we're going to talk more about that. That's really important. And Melissa, those feelings are valid for you too.
And so I just want to see if maybe both of you can. see my bookshelf back here, I always say, can we just put that on the bookshelf and just try to kind of this week, sit with the moment that we have this new thing for now. Yeah, definitely. And try not to go into the past and, know, we'll talk about it next week or two weeks.
Yeah, this moment feels really good. This is very connecting. Yeah, agree. Yeah.
All right. All right. Well, great work. We'll go ahead and stop there.
Okay, Julie here one more time. So I added this ending part because Melissa mentioned that she hasn't been able to reach Drew for all these years. And that's true. She hasn't been able to reach him for years.
And she's both been impacted by that and has had a role in that. And I need to explore that more. But now isn't the time. Now the time is to stay with Drew and I knew Drew's shame would get a bit triggered by her saying that, but the session was ending, so I asked them to put that trigger on my bookshelf for the future when it will inevitably come up again because this work requires multiple passes to peel back all the layers and subtleties.
for now, I just want them to savor the connection, savor the moment, because the more they can savor the good, the less likely they are. to spend more years not being able to reach each other. All right, so if you're doing this work at home, I'm going to have homework to assist you with that on my website, thesecurerelationship .com. And for those of you needing to know how to communicate with each other in a way that isn't shaming to begin with, that doesn't reinforce any shame you or your partner brought to the relationship or even created in the relationship, and in a way which is attachment friendly and fosters secure attachment, please get my book Secure Love by me, Julie Menanno.
I have an additional resource right now, as I've mentioned, which is a four-hour couples workshop on September 28th. My couples workshops are appropriate for all couples, but they do focus on the anxious-avoidant dynamic, and I use specialized attachment work, including, but not limited to, the shame component. of attachment insecurity. I like to use shame as an opportunity for couples to bond instead of going to these cycles and harm each other.
So again, thank you all for listening. Thank you to Melissa and Drew for being so brave. again, I know we're all rooting for them and they're doing such a great job. And so if you have some time, please go on to Apple, Spotify, Podcast, whatever platform you use.
And please just take some time to give a five-star rating. That really helps get this word out to couples out there who are struggling and who really need to access some useful information. So thank you, everyone, and I will see you next week for episode 10. We're already at episode 10.
All right. Take care, everyone. Bye-bye.
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