Choosing Each Other: Finding Connection Amidst Family Pressure

In this episode

Drew and Melissa return from a 10-day family beach trip with 30-plus relatives and unravel how it pushed them back into their negative cycle. Facing criticism about their parenting, Drew coped by retreating to easier family members, leaving Melissa feeling unsupported and questioning her worth. Julie Menanno reframes the problem: it isn't their parenting but how they handle family pressure, and she coaches them to briefly come together as a team.

Key takeaways

• Even strong, growing couples fall back into negative cycles under added stress; it's normal, not failure.
• The real issue often isn't the outside criticism but how partners respond to it together.
• Avoidant coping, like retreating to easier company, can leave the other partner feeling abandoned and alone.
• A brief moment of coming together as a team can interrupt the cycle in the middle of a hard situation.
• Caring deeply about others' opinions is worth exploring, but connection with your partner comes first.

Read the full transcript

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Secure Love podcast with me, your host, couples therapist and author of Secure Love, the book, Julie Manano. And of course, I'm joined with our lovely, brave, real life couple, Melissa and Drew, who are here with me as we navigate through 20 sessions of couples therapy. And today we're jumping into episode nine. So as a recap, Melissa and Drew started off our therapy in an anxious avoidant relationship.

Melissa, anxious, Drew, avoidant. And they kept finding themselves stuck in these chronic negative communication cycles, which would look like Melissa brings up a concern, Drew gets defensive or tries to appease her or make her feelings go away. She feels invalidated. She gets escalated and they go into an argument or fight and then Drew ends up just sort of retreating, shutting down and then they both feel yucky until they sort of make their way back to each other, but not without the original issue kind of getting pushed under the rug.

Let's not talk about it anymore. And also with damage, damage done to their relationship because that's what negative cycles do is they... leave partners feeling unheard and validated, unappreciated and seen and alone. And although Melissa and Drew love each other very much and are very committed to each other, too much of their time in the past was spent either fighting or just ignoring problems to avoid fights.

And now nine sessions in, things are much better for the two of them. definitely have fewer negative cycles. They repair more quickly and thoroughly when they do have them. And for those of you following along, you know we're generally in a deeper stage of the work with Drew, where we're helping him learn to more fully engage with his own emotions and regulate them without having to shut down Melissa's concerns or appease her or pull away or not bring up concerns of his own at all.

With that work, he's going to feel better with himself and also be more equipped to help Melissa with her emotions. So this week, we're going to switch it up a bit. The family went on a road trip where they joined up with 30 or so other family members, Drew's extended family, at a beach house. And remember that Drew and Melissa have three very young children.

And it's no small feat to make this kind of a trip happen. But even though things went pretty well overall, their trip was contaminated by a relative who was making negative comments about the way Melissa and Drew parent and about their relationship. And it was pretty inappropriate. And it really impacted them.

And here they are putting in all this effort to give their family a good experience. And then they're getting these hurtful messages. And that ended up causing the two of them to go back into their pattern of distance and anxiety. So not ideal for them, but all very normal.

All couples go back into negative cycles from time to time, especially when there's added stress. So today I'm going to go back with them and help them make sense of things and talk about what can happen next time so that they can come together more around the situation instead of being driven apart. They did a pretty good job of it on their own, but there's always fine tuning we can do here. So we're going to take a break from our deeper work with Drew today and do some negative cycle work.

All right, so let's jump into episode nine. All right, well, we're back and it's been two, three weeks. How many weeks? Two weeks, three.

Wow. All right, well, how was your trip? Had its ups and downs Yeah, as all trips do yeah there we were there with I think a total of 33 of us 13 kids. my god.

Yeah So I think I've I thought about this I'm like, wow, how do we even sum it up? There were some major family stressors and and family events that happened and I think It was such a win for us, for our relationship in the beginning. You could really see us using our strategies, coming together, co-regulating, supporting each other. Then I think we just reached a point in the trip, it was like what, 10, 11 days total.

We just reached a point where we were like, wow, we're out of strategies. this is a lot. There's a lot happening and we just kind of maybe fell back into some old routines of when I'm super anxious. I'm this is reminding me of old things.

Drew's, you know, maybe checking out a little bit. So I think in positive news, we made it a little bit. you know, so we didn't fail completely, but I think we just got pushed to a point of survival mode at some point. Okay, Julie popping in here.

So even the strongest, most successful couples are going to fall back into a negative cycle from time to time. And this is a really good example. When Melissa says survival mode, that's exactly what it is. Negative cycles are default brain wiring, stay safe responses.

And when a couple is growing, they're going to fall back. from time to time as they get stronger. remember that in your relationship, try not to get demoralized when you're making all of these good changes and then the stress and triggers get the best of you. That's really the only way to get stronger is to get more practice with hard stuff.

So in the therapy when this happens, it creates an opportunity to go back to basics, take a break from the deeper work and say, hey, what happened that both of you were needing to go back into these old moves and of course follow that up with what can we do differently next time. You know it's hard we we've got three little kids and you're in a beach house with a lot of people and a lot of love and a lot of support but there were definitely some more immediate family connections that held a lot of criticism and a lot of tough moments. And so I think it brought out some emotions in both of us just questioning ourselves, questioning our parenting, just a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There are times when the stress of what's going on around will compromise your coping skills. Yeah.

And even the strongest of couples are going to have especially if this isn't a thing that you're dealing with every day, right? So you don't get like competent, comfortable with navigating it. You just have to sort of go in it and get blindsided. How would it have gone in the past?

I'm just curious. Did you handle it better for longer maybe? absolutely. think in the past just immediately out of the gate, we would have taken it out on each other, shut down right away, freaking out right away.

Just those harsher coping strategies that then would have way increased the stress. So I think the fact that we were able to, you know, and I shared this with Drew, I especially saw from him, like there were some really tough moments where you know, even he specifically was receiving, you know, it's family. So they're kind of picking on him a little bit about this, that, and the other thing. And, I was able to see him, you know, whether it was coming to me for regulation or keeping himself grounded and really put me and the kids and, just the whole spirit of everything first.

And that was very new. not resorting to that, like, I have to protect my ego or I have to just, you know, go toward old survival tactics. Like he really was putting our kids first, putting our marriage first. And I think us being able to be there for the kids was huge because they can, especially our oldest, she's really attuned to our conversations and our feelings by this age.

And so she's picking up on all these things that are happening and So I think even though there were challenges and maybe opportunities to come together more, mean, there were definitely big wins too where we were able to survive in better ways than we have in the past. Good. Okay. So was it like, Drew, because I know you were with your family, were they like, were you feeling like they were criticizing your parenting or just to help ground me in what was happening?

Yeah, I mean, I suppose a little bit. We have some of the youngest kids there of the entire family. I think it's 22 year olds at a beach. And it's packing up in the morning and taking everything out and setting up and then taking them out there.

It's a lot of stimulation for them. And I think... I think not just a few, just a few of the family members, maybe some that we're a little bit closer with who feel a lot more comfortable like, you know, maybe providing a little bit more direct feedback, whether good or bad or otherwise. I think it occurred maybe a little bit too much and it felt a little out of place.

Can you give me an example? you know, so, you know, the, boys would tend to, tend to cry a lot or kind of scream or want either Mel or want myself, right? And so, you know, it's how, how you manage that in the moment. I felt like all the eyes were on us and you know, it's stressful a little bit.

It makes you a little bit irritable, and vulnerable as well. But, and then they would say something, whether it was like, you know, whether it was to us or whether it was a little bit passive aggressive, I definitely felt like it was all in play. like I said, think Mel and I did a really good job of not letting that get between us. But we just kind of continued to recalibrate on, hey, let's just do what's best for us and our family.

But I think a lot of it just had to do like when the kids will cry or whether they would get into a little spat and maybe throw a temper tantrum or. maybe throw something at the other one and it's like everyone's like, you just feel like everyone's like, hey, you should respond like this versus how we would typically respond to something along those lines. And that made it a little bit hard. And I think there was a little bit of resentment that grew throughout the week with some of the family members.

And it's always on your mind because everybody's on vacation and We're all there trying to have a good time together. it makes it a little Sure. So there you are. Your kids are being kids.

I mean, you're rock stars just for putting yourself in that situation. And then your kids are acting like kids. And all of sudden, you're dealing with the stress of the situation just having them and, like you said, packing up and getting everyone out there. And then on top of that, you start to feel judged.

Yeah, a little bit. I just think, I think some of the criticism that we receive came from the most unlikely places. And it was just kind of tough to, it was tough to kind of combat that. it's like, you know, for me, know, Melissa and I spoke at length about this and it wasn't about me like avoiding or shutting down.

It was kind of, it was, you know, some of the, some of the things that were said like were pretty early on even in the vacation. And it was more about Hey, is it really worth getting into like an argument and making things awkward and creating tension this early on in a trip when we're gonna spend so much time together? So part of that was going through my head too. So I kind of just felt it best just to, know, kind of just work through any of those issues just between Melissa and myself and our kids and family and kind of just leave it at that.

So you did say this to the person or you didn't say that? No, I don't think so. It felt like... Confrontation.

bother? Yeah, confrontation probably would not have gone over well given the personalities. Sure. So you opted to probably make the wise choice, not just to kind of not deal with it in that arena, but were you able to connect with each other over it?

were you able, Drew, to talk about some of the deeper feelings that were coming up for you around these comments? Okay, Julie jumping in here. So again, this is a really good example of a situation where external stressors are coming at them and know they probably can't stop it. They probably can't stop that family members are overstepping, but they can at least try to stay connected with each other.

I like to call this being war buddies. And sometimes there are solutions to these problems that happen outside of the relationship. And sometimes there aren't, but The idea is at least they don't have to do it alone. And I'm fairly certain that Drew and Melissa did a much better job at this than if it had happened in the past.

But if it went as smoothly as possible, they wouldn't be bringing it up to me as a problem. So I'm going to need to honor the good here, that they're stronger than they were, while still trying to figure out what about this didn't go well. And if you have the conversation at home with your partner, try to lead with that. Hey.

You know, look at what we did right here. If we're going to share with each other what went wrong, then we also need to celebrate together what went well. And, you know, before you say, and yet we still found ourselves with some of these old feelings of disconnection. So what can we do differently next time to make this go even better?

So let's see what Drew has to say about staying connected through this storm. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think so. We tried to touch base as often as we could without calling too much attention to it, but yeah, very confined spaces. right.

Yeah. Not a lot of privacy. Is that what you mean? Yeah, that's what I meant.

Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so where did this go south?

What kind of caused it to leap from, you know, this being a problem with the other family members to being a problem between the two of you. For me, you know, I'm dealing with it in a totally different way and I'm anxious. People are making comments. I'm taking it personally.

you did, they're saying things like, if you did this, maybe your kids wouldn't have speech problems or if, you know, We parent our kids this way, you know, how you're not disciplining your kids enough. We even had family members attempt to physically discipline our kids. So all of these things are happening and I'm feeling enough anxiety to like power a small town. And to her, like, as the days are going on is, you know, we're connecting, we're talking, we're comforting.

I think there was, it was probably the second or third day. He also then had an added element of issues at work came up. So now there's two kind of fires that that are going up higher within the family. He's not wanting to disrupt things within his extended family.

He's wanting to take care of his. you know, the five of us, his immediate family, he is wanting to make sure everything's okay at work. I'm losing my mind because I'm so anxious about everything. And I think that was the moment where I felt that he started to pull away, whether that was true or not.

That was my interpretation. And I think that's where things went south. Julie here. So here I'm needing to know why Drew needed to pull away and Why did Melissa's nervous system start feeling anxious?

Clearly, they're both anxious. Drew's handling it by pulling away. Melissa's getting preoccupied with Drew's availability. I don't know enough yet to say how this negative cycle started.

Did Drew start feeling anxious about the family member comments, and he starts distancing, and Melissa reacts to that? Or did they have some kind of interaction, and Melissa was communicating in some of her old ways, and Drew reacted to that? I'm having a hard time getting a clear picture here. What I do know is that they were not happy with how they were being treated, really not happy.

That was stressful for them. And I really feel for them. They didn't deserve that at all. And we've done all this good work and they're getting so much better at navigating all of this, but this extended family stuff is really hard.

so these stressors are overwhelming. They're coping skills and sending them into distress and They each feel confused and off kilter inside. And on top of that, can't really seem to find each other. And as hard as it is, it's also going to be OK.

Because this is life, and it's going to happen. And the difference between happy couples and not so happy couples isn't a lack of fighting or disconnection. It's the ability to bounce back and repair and choose connection again and again. Okay, and then if you could give me just like a moment that you remember that kind of a defining moment where we went from skating along to, we're in a rupture.

I know, I feel like it was kind of like two thirds of the way through, because it just felt like as the week progressed, there was just more and more kind of mounting on us in terms of just pressure and anxiety. I think we did a great job of coming together early on, but there's so many people there and you're trying to manage kids playing with other kids. And I think it's... It just didn't give us, I think, enough time to come together and connect.

mean, the only time we could really come together and connect, unless we wanted to try to figure out a way to step away, was in the evenings when we would lay down. And we had two kids in there with pack and plays, trying to sleep too. So I think it was just, I think. Just being able to be in a forum where you could communicate was really challenging.

yeah, and think it definitely was hitting us pretty hard about two thirds of way through. think we were both ready to come home and get back to some normalcy. It makes a lot of sense that it kind of progressed at this point. what kind of, again, where did this leap between the two of you?

I mean, that's the breaking point. as far as the vacation goes. But where is this breaking point between the two of you? How are you feeling with each other right now?

Do you feel back to your closeness? Yeah. The thing about this vacation is that it comes with a 10 -hour drive both ways. So a lot of time in the car to really Layers upon layers upon layers of yes.

Yes, yes. I mean, honestly, I'm just sitting here thinking, I'm in awe that you were able to pull this off at all. the family and the car and the heat and the beach and the water and you know just the whole yeah the whole thing is a lot so yeah i think that was probably our biggest you know on on the way back where after so much time talking and and getting into it i think we just One thing that came out for both of us was why? We both noticed and were very aware of this insane pressure to take care of everyone else and make everyone else happy.

And I think it stems from this, we want to provide for our kids these wonderful memories that we had growing up, the connections with family and aunts and uncles and cousins. And we did that, we achieved that. If you were to ask our daughter if our boys could talk, mean, The sun, the sand, the ocean, the waves, all the magic was there. But between the two of us, we were just like, why was this so hard?

Why do we care so much? Why does it destroy us so much when people say these things and do these things? It's undoing us, it's eating us alive. Okay, Julie here again.

So it's eating them alive because this isn't safe. It's not safe. have your family out there trying to have a wholesome, healthy experience and never knowing when the next comment is coming. I don't know any parents of young children who are fully secure in what they're doing.

How can you be? You aren't certain things are going to work out because you're in the thick of it and it's new. And there's always this voice saying, is this the right approach? especially if you're working hard to break not so healthy generational cycles that you may have grown up with.

And so that insecurity is already there to some degree, even in the best of circumstances. And unless there's some serious safety concern, which this situation doesn't even come close to, nobody deserves to have to field these comments and not know when the next one is coming. Melissa and Drew aren't crazy for feeling the way they do. And I'm going to address this from a more practical standpoint later.

For now, In the session, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly happened between Melissa and Drew. Where was the moment? How did what was happening around them become something that happened between them? And I said earlier, this session ended up being more of a review than a continuation of the work.

But when it was happening, I was holding out for the possibility of using the situation as an opportunity to continue. the shame work with Drew, that didn't end up happening. So let's go back into Melissa sharing the experience. Like logically and mentally you're able to say, this person is saying something I know it's not true, or you can reason your way out of it, but the physical feelings that come up are just so, you're feeling.

all the feelings of the last five or 10 years just come alive in that moment and you just can't cope your way through it and you just end up feeling lost and then you come home sort of disappointed in yourself like, man, I wish I had handled that differently or I think we both kind of had that feeling. So there is a feeling of closeness. Like we're at least on the same page about our goals and our desires and in our alignment, but I think we just were a little lost. Like we reached a point of, no, we have, we just don't have the tools.

Like I don't know what to do. I feel lost here. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you were both in a tough environment. mean, again, not only is it just hard to do what you were doing, whether you had family there or not, on top of that, now you're having to deal with all this emotional energy.

And some of it's just, I'm imagining the judgment, and then there's always this kind of backdrop of existing family drama to begin with. Some of that energy may have been there. super clear on how this got, you know, caused a rift between the two of you. And maybe it didn't.

Maybe it was just hard and we got through it and we were, you know, for the most part, we were there for each other. you know, we're here to kind of talk about what didn't go well. Is there, I'm just kind of fishing here at Melissa, is there some truth to maybe you would have wanted Drew to say, to say more or intervene a little more than maybe he did? And am I picking up?

some of that. Yeah, I think, you know, when we when we started out, we were a really great team supporting each other. And then as the week sort of went on, I think we fell into old patterns where I'm panicking. I'm thinking of projecting out what if into the future and looking back into the past and feeling all these things.

And I think Drew kind of my interpretation was fell into things like, you know, just avoid in some ways of, I'm going to go hang out over here with this family member or just let me know what you need or, you know, I'll be right over here if you need anything. And so I think there came a point in the vacation where it was, don't want to hang out under our beach tent with our three difficult kids and these few difficult family members while you go three beach tents down and have a great time with the fun family members and I can just holler down if I need you. Like I want you to be in the heart moment with me, but I also don't want to deprive you of these, know, this is your uncle so and so and your cousin this and that. And I want you to have, I want to give that opportunity to you.

I, and then I, fall into this like, well, I'm always the bad guy and I don't like the feeling of being the bad guy. So I'll just be quiet and handle it myself. And it just plays into that. So once again, it's like you want to protect your own needs, right?

You have these needs for him to kind of be there supporting you and hanging out with you and giving you a distraction from the four difficult family members. But then at the same time, and you know, this is commendable that you want to also protect his ability to kind of connect with these other fun family members that you might not get to see very often. I don't know. But so that that's that stuck place for you.

Once again, you find yourself in a position where, you know, you're you're needing to kind of protect both of you. Yeah. And then and so what kind of gets in the way of you guys coming together and saying, hey, Here's what we'll do here. We both have these needs.

I want to go hang out with these guys. And I also want to be here for you. So let's be clear with each other and figure out a plan here. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, think that's where we, you know, I think that part of the week, we just, we did not communicate that to one another. And I think that's kind of the big eye opener for sure. So at what point, Melissa, did you notice starting to feel kind of like, hey, this doesn't feel right? this isn't how I want it, how I want this vacation to be right now.

I'm okay with him going over there, but I also kind of need a little bit more of him over here with me or maybe take the boys with him or one of the boys with him or. I don't know, maybe... well... I think my panic settled in early on from like the first tough moments.

I don't know that I ever really recovered from that. And I don't think that it's anything that Drew did. I think I'm able to recognize like it was my own panic settling in, but then everything that happened thereafter, it was like I never could recover. So there were the initial, you know, difficult moments with with family members, but then your mind is just racing.

And so it starts with the comments that the family members are making. I think that's a big one for me because I'm already worrying so much about, you know, the kids and if they're okay. I think that a big thing I worry about is if I could just do more, then they would be okay if I were just doing a job, then everybody would be fine. And I think on a vacation like this, there's whether it's a immediate conscious thought or somewhere buried in my subconscious, there's this thought like If Drew is happy, then you're going to know it.

if he's unhappy, you know, like I so much blame myself if he's unhappy. And so we're going on this family vacation and you know, this is like his dad is missing from the family vacation. That's a big element too. So I want to...

have this connection and we love his family. This is such a special opportunity for us and for our kids. And so I think that if there are moments where he's unhappy or not having a good time, know, sure there are external factors that people might be saying or doing things, but if he were happy with me, then we would remain connected. And we would be handling it as a team and staying in sync and this and that.

And so when we become disconnected, I feel like I just really blame myself for that. And it's hard to recover. And what is one thing that you might look back and say, hey, if I would have handled that moment differently, maybe I wouldn't have pushed him away. And then I wouldn't be over here feeling so alone and unsupported with all this other stuff going on.

I'm not sure. I think that's where we get stuck is that's kind of where we descended into old habits, you know, because you're sharing a room with all of your kids in a house with all of your family. And so you're quickly sending messages to each other or catching each other in the hallway, trying to do a 30 second debrief and, hey, I need this from you or let's try that today. you're reading facial expressions 10 times more than you normally would, or you're trying to analyze text messages and stuff.

Okay, Julie here. So I'm going to organize this for you because I found out later they were being a bit vague. They told me after recording that they were being vague because of some reasons which will remain private for them. And that made it make a lot more sense because I just wasn't feeling like I could grab anything to work with.

But I was much more clear about what was going on with them after the session. So let me explain because I think a lot of you will relate. So there are layers here. Layer one, having a six-year-old and twin two-year-olds is hard, period.

It will tax the strongest of people. Layer two, taking a six-year-old and two-year-old twins on a 10 -hour road trip is stressful, period. Layer three, getting them to the beach is stressful. Trust me, I've been there.

Tents, food, sunscreen. And on top of that, the usual care that is required while you're trying to get all this together. This is all a labor of love because you want your kids to have a good experience and it's hard. And then layer four, when you go to all this work to be parents who want to give their kids happy experiences, this is the part where you want support from the people around you.

You want to hear, wow, look how hard you're working to make this happen, or at least you want to hear nothing, but instead they're getting messages, you're doing it wrong. Your kids don't behave right. Your kids have speech problems because of you. And anyone is going to be bothered by this.

It's dysregulating to some degree. Humans are wired to need to feel competent in the eyes of others. And when that's not happening, it hurts. And then we add in more layers.

They're in a situation where they have kids to take care of, and they have relatives Drew wants to reconnect with. And that's not an experience they've dealt with over and over in life as relatively new parents. So. They don't know how to navigate the difference in needs.

And again, this is on top of everything else. And then we add these other layers. They're both questioning themselves. Melissa's insecurity is rising.

And she's saying, well, I want to make this work so we both feel good. But if I reach out, is that going to put me in a place where I'm asking for too much? And I'm guessing. And this is just a guess because I just didn't have time to get down to it with Drew.

But I'm guessing that. He's feeling torn up about the family member who's making these comments. then, you know, he has the nerve to try to kind of touch his child. And Drew's wanting to be the bigger person here and not overly react and not rock the boat.

But anyone is going to be angry about that. And so I'm guessing Drew is stuffing a lot of that down and telling himself, you know, be the bigger person. And there's definitely some value to that, but not when it comes at the expense of just at least acknowledging some of these feelings. And what happens when we stuff down bad feelings, we sort of have to disconnect from all of the feelings.

So he's going inside of himself to regulate himself. And Melissa is picking up on that distance. He's gone. And so I think they're both really struggling inside of themselves more than they even realized.

They're both sitting here now saying, we shouldn't have let it bother us. And what I think I'd rather hear them say and what I would work toward here when they're healthier is, yeah, that bothered us. And for good reason, we didn't deserve that. Our boundaries were violated.

That's the starting point. And it doesn't mean they need to get stuck in the trigger and get in a big fight with anyone. I'll talk about kind of strategies at the end of the session for situations like that. Acknowledging the pain is actually really important.

That's a way of standing up for self to say, yes, this hurt. I don't like that treatment. So for now, let's hear more about how it played out. And do you feel, how do you feel with each other just right here and now?

A week, I guess a week out of the trip. Better, much better. I think it's we've had enough time to, you know, talked through each thing, think I still feel left with some of the scary feelings of... I keep coming back to this place of I don't want to disappoint you or make you unhappy or I think a big one for me was I hear you saying that you're happy, but you...

you look miserable, like we're not handling it as a team, you know? Okay. Okay, so let me check in with you, Drew. Was something going on for you that kind of built up as the days go by that was, you know, taking you to that uncomfortable place?

Like, were you more impacted maybe by these family comments than... you realized or Yeah, I definitely think so. mean, I think a part of me was that just, it just wasn't worth really getting into like a huge argument with anyone there. It's, you know, we have a few days left on the trip.

Yeah, I don't think that we've, we just haven't had a really good opportunity even to come together like just as a family. You know, like taking a walk. It's just, you know, we're just, the kids just. you know, have us going in so many directions.

And it wasn't really until I think like the last one or two days that we started to kind of figure it out, which is really, really promising for next time. But yeah, I mean, I think that for me, it's You started, figure out how to be, how to make it smooth. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I just kind of felt that, you know, it was We were just in the position we were in.

it's, you know, how do we just kind of hold on, you know, until it's time to, I guess, time to go home. Yeah, was, I mean, it was really hard. No doubt about it. But I don't, don't think I...

Give me an example, maybe, of one thing that was said. I mean, let me just kind of try to follow you down that path. What was something that said that like really particularly hit Yeah, it's just kind of like, you know, hearing the comments, you know, kind of hearing comments get shared like, hey, you better figure this out, you know, and it's like, well, you know, just around like, hey, you know, the kids are crying. How do you respond to that?

You know, total criticism of like how we parent together. And it's, you know, that was kind of like a catalyst, I think. very early on. then, you know, obviously it set a lot of other things kind of in motion, Okay.

So just think of this like criticism coming at you, right? Here you are again, you know, it's, it's amazing that you did this to begin with, you know, that's how it shows how much you care about your kids and your family and creating these experiences. that will smooth out over time, but you have to jump into them at some point, right? And so here you are trying to navigate all this.

And then on top of that, maybe you are getting some of these messages from some family members, but then on top of that, here's the part where you want to hear, here, let me hold him for a minute and read this book to him while you take care of the other one. Instead, you're getting this criticism coming at you. Just as I put words to that right now, like what comes up in you. mean frustration, disappointment that somebody who you care about and somebody who see now puts into question how much they really care about kind of you and instead of being supportive, it's like they're being critical.

So it's extremely frustrating. Based on the personality, it's just anything you say in return leads to confrontation. just based on who that person is. it's...

So no matter what, you have these messages coming at you of criticism and like you can't really do anything because if you do, it's just gonna cause like a fight or... Yeah, very, very awkward tension, probably more things being said. You know, it's just... I don't know, I guess for me, it's just a good exercise of like emotional intelligence and it's like, hey, is this really worth it?

Like, is this really going to get to me to the point where, you know, I have to say something and it just wasn't there, but it's still frustrating. And I think, you know, there are a lot of other little things that, that, you know, throughout the following few days that things just kind of kept kind of mounting and yeah, just kinda, it just really. just really put like a pretty negative spin on that first half of that vacation. Actually, pretty much, and it's almost, I would say the entirety of the vacation.

So the criticisms kept coming. yeah. Criticisms, maybe actions, or others tried to take control, as Mel said, trying to discipline our kids or say things to our kids. for Mel and I, it's like, hey, we don't No, it's just, not, we just don't parent in that sense.

Like we don't meet their frustration with more frustration. Or if they're screaming, we're not gonna scream back. Mel and I are very much aligned where it's like, they're two, let's try to teach them a skill. Let's try to get them to calm down and then kind of explain, rinse and repeat the why.

Right, you want to give them an experience that maybe will help them do better in the world, feel better in the world, right? That's where you're going with this. so instead, you're getting these messages from the family members that you don't agree with, that you don't think would be what would help your kids do the best in the world as kids now and adults later, right? And then on top of them, trying to kind of parent for you, then they're also now criticizing the way you're doing it.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that. And I mean, I could definitely tell Mel was pretty visibly shaken. You know, and I could tell it was really weighing on her heavily throughout the trip. But at the same time, it's like, hey, you know, we've got this X amount of days in front of us and, know, we're going to be in being at a big beach house together with everybody.

So, you know, part of it is, hey, we've we've got to we've got to come together and kind of survive this. So. And so, do you remember, since this is your family, do you remember times growing up where maybe you felt a lot of criticism coming at you from the family? Is this a new pattern?

No. That never really... Well, I don't know. You're looking through the eyes of a...

of a kid versus what they experience as a parent. But no, I never picked up on any of that, on any type of family beach vacation. If anything You don't remember you personally being criticized by other family members or picked on or - No, I was usually the one getting in trouble. - Okay.

Sure, my dad has probably a different different experience, no, I think for the most part, none of that really, really occurred. Very conservative, very laid back, laid back family members. Okay. in this trip, you're getting these messages.

You're getting it wrong, you're getting it wrong, and on top of that, it sounds like you're getting the messages from people that you don't really have a lot of. put a lot of value into their opinion to begin with. Am I getting that right? And so now, I'm trying to figure out because you're telling me like, look, this took a toll on me over and over and over.

It really truly was taking a toll on you. But I'm trying to figure out like in what way did it leave you talk down to? Did it leave you feeling, I know we have frustrated but. Yeah, mean the toll for me was it definitely caused it caused a disconnect between Melissa and I.

Okay. So were you more kind of concerned about how this was impacting her? Like I can let it go. I can let it roll off, but...

Yeah, most Was that it? Yep. Okay. Yeah.

I wanted our family to really enjoy this vacation as much as we wanted to have a positive experience with everybody else. And so what would have happened if you maybe would have said, hey, you know, pull whoever it was aside and say, hey, I need you to kind of. temper some of your comments a bit. I'm not sure exactly.

I don't know how effective that really would have been. I think others have tried, you know, in the past and been unsuccessful. it wouldn't just necessarily be about, you know, you speaking your truth, but it would have... The only benefit here in your mind would be to get it to change.

Yeah, or And I'm not saying there's a right or wrong. I'm just trying to kind of figure this out. I'm really trying to figure this out. So I'm wondering, Melissa, is that something that you were needing?

I think I was just hoping to handle it as a team. know, we, think. And what would have helped you feel? Like I am having a really hard time trying to figure out what was missing.

Yeah. I think there wasn't a moment where we said like, hey, we've got this. This is hard for you and this is hard for me. You're not crazy.

This really is that difficult. We've got somebody out here who for whatever reason is... you know, the closest family member to us on the beach, but making comments about our family specifically, not any of the other families with small children who are behaving similarly, just our family. And they're, you know, saying, wow, looks like you're unhappy in your marriage.

wow. Looks like you don't know how to handle your kids. wow. Like just going and going and going and going and going.

And that's hard for both of us to hear. But I think it would have been easier if we had just found some way to look at each other and be like, this, not making it up. This really is that hard. Other people can see it, like we're gonna survive this moment.

Our kids are enjoying the ocean. Let's focus on something else. Let's, you know, just some sort of grounding togetherness instead of like, hey, I'm gonna go deal with the problem over here. you go deal with a problem over here because that's classically what we do.

We divide and conquer. We are so good at divide and conquer because that's like a really effective survival tool for us out of necessity. We are really good at like, hey, I'm going to manage this piece and then you go do this with the kids and I'll pack up this thing over here. But we were missing the element of like, hey, there's this giant elephant in the room.

We both see it. We're both feeling that sort of pain together, like, let's acknowledge it together. Let's be in it together. I'm here for you.

You're here for me. That piece of it was missing for me, just validating this. OK, so neither of you are saying we really, neither of you saying, hey, maybe it would have been better if we did kind of pull whoever this is aside and say, hey, can you lay off a bit? You're saying, look, what would have helped is just if we would have come together and just put some words to it.

Yeah, like we're war buddies. Like I like to say, like we've got this stuff going on around us, but at least we have, we're together. We're kind of both seeing it as, you know, I'm not crazy, we're not crazy. This is really happening.

This really does feel bad. Yeah. And so I'm hearing that, you know, one of the reasons that that didn't happen, that you didn't come together and just. kind of have that connecting point, which Melissa probably would have helped you feel a lot better.

And then Drew, if you knew Melissa's feeling better about it, then that would have helped you feel better, But so something happens that you don't have that connecting point. And then because you don't have that connecting point, then it starts to snowball. right? Because then Melissa, you say, the more we don't have that connecting point, the more I start to feel alone and kind of alone with all of it.

And then Drew, something happens for you. can we agree that you start distancing? Or were you just hanging out with the other family members because you haven't seen them in a while? Or was that kind of some distancing from the stress?

I think it was a little bit of both. I really do. Yeah, mean, I think part of it was distancing. The other was, hey, you know, I'm just going to go over here and hang out for a little bit.

And yeah, I'm guilty of that. OK, Julie. So here it is. Drew saying, yeah, I was distancing.

And this is where I would want to jump in and learn more about why is he needing to distance? What is he distancing from? He said frustration. But then.

When I tried to explore frustration with him a few minutes ago, he jumped away and started talking about the trigger and saying things like, well, it wouldn't have done any good to say anything. And this is what avoidance does. It moves away from vulnerable feelings many humans would feel in this situation when they're being criticized and talked down to by family members who you want to feel respected by, humiliated, maybe emasculated, maybe shamed, embarrassed. maybe alone, any number of vulnerable emotions.

If they weren't there, he's not going to need to distance from anything. And then he's now conflicted because for Drew, confronting the guy is also going to lead to a lot of bad feelings. Powerlessness, if he doesn't respond, being ignored, ashamed for, don't know, letting his kids down by, in his mind, letting his kids down by making a scene and causing them to feel scared. I mean, I don't know because I didn't really get the chance here to go there with him because it just wasn't happening in this session.

He kept kind of bouncing away from me. So Drew at the beach was feeling super stuck between a rock and a hard place. And that's a helpless place for him. so part of him wants to hang out with family members.

He hasn't seen in a while just because most people do. But he also says there's this other part. that just wants to get out of there, get away from the trigger, get out of that tent, get away from those bad feelings and numb out. And I'm doing this work with them ultimately so that he doesn't need to numb out anymore.

This is exactly why we're not so much in this session, but in the bigger context of the therapy doing our work with Drew right now, because this shame and these disavowed vulnerable feelings he's not putting words to are still getting the best of them. He's doing so much better in their day-to-day life. But this beach situation has a lot of layers. So when I get back to our work with him, my focus is going to continue to be his shame and disavowed vulnerable feelings like helplessness, fear, loneliness.

And if it's still there, which it is, something will trigger it and we'll have an opportunity to do that deeper work. when he's able to put more words to those things and help himself and get help, he's not going to need to distance from them anymore. And in the process, he's not going to need to distance from Melissa. You know, and I just want to say here that, you know, the fact that Drew experiences these deeper, vulnerable feelings, because all humans do, you know, most of the time or much of the time, we're not consciously aware of that in the moments we're just feeling like the anger or the shock and, you know, either kind of acting out in the anger or shoving the feelings down and not really dealing with all of that vulnerability.

Nothing about that makes Drew a weak person or or anything like that. In fact, I appreciate that Drew is a very strong person. He is willing to kind of put his feelings to the side for the betterment of. those around him.

is not, this work isn't about him, you know, going to this guy and saying, I feel really helpless, I feel really powerless. No, that guy isn't going to be able to hold that vulnerability, it's not gonna work in that relationship. But we do need for Drew to have somewhere to go with those feelings, putting words to them, even if it's just with himself, not wallowing in them, but acknowledging them. And of course, as a couples therapist, I want that person to be Melissa.

because sharing vulnerability is the hallmark of intimate emotional connection. It's a moving toward instead of moving away. And won't it be great when they're even better at being able to do that? Because we see what happens when we, instead of moving toward, move away.

It doesn't go well. They ended up in this cycle. And so what happens that you, you know, And I understand, like, you both are saying, look, we didn't really have a lot of time to come together and put some words to this, but maybe you had more than you realized. Maybe there was also an aspect to it where you were both kind of not wanting to have that conversation.

Like, it's just easier to not have it. It's just easier to keep kind of trying to push through. I think that's true for sure. For better or for worse, we are really good at whatever current survival strategies we have, which again, I do think for us is just sort of divide and conquer.

That was our go-to. Drew took care of the entire beach setup. So the tent is up, the coolers are down, the chairs are ready. And then I'm taking care of like...

The kids are dressed, they have sunscreen, they're getting a bath at the end of the day. There was no point in which we were tackling any of those things together, which makes sense when you're trying to figure out how to do all this, but it also just maybe led to unhealthy coping behaviors as well. Right. And both of you, and you can help me if I'm wrong here, both of you are saying, look, We do think that it would have been more helpful had we just come together, had some quick words, emotionally been on the same page, emotionally connected, and then go back out into the stress of the logistical stress and the family stress.

I'm thinking of this term secure base. I don't know if you've heard of that term, toddlers. But when babies kind of move into toddlers, They need to go, they need to distance from you, but they also need to look back and say, hey, know, mom's there, go touch base, dad's there, and then go back out. So part of that, having a secure base helps them have confidence going out and exploring their independence and exploring the world around them.

And couples need that secure base too. Like we have this safe haven that we can come back to in each other, and that helps us go back out. independently and do what we need to do and then come back. And you're saying, look, we didn't have that...

We kind of started off with that secure base, but then that secure base gets eroded over the course of these days. And then at the end of it, both of you are feeling kind of frazzled and Melissa, you're dealing with the frazzled with... Your body goes into that anxious place and then Drew, you deal with the frazzled and stress by going into that avoidant place. And so...

going forward, like what I need to understand is like what's blocking that coming back to each other and getting that connection, right? And I think a lot of it is just less about maybe not wanting to do that and more about it's just not a habit yet. I would agree with that. I we both desperately want to figure that out, but I think, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I get stuck in a place mentally of...

It's just a lot of fear. well, now he's unhappy. He doesn't want to connect. If he wanted to connect, he would connect.

I just need to handle this myself. And it's really hard for me to come back out of that place because when there's these family tensions and kid issues, those feel like scary places that we've been before. And so all of this is happening and then we become a little bit disconnected and it just triggers a whole bunch of things. And I don't know how to get, it's like you said, it's just old habits.

like, right, it's like it keeps circling back to the same place, right? Which is if we could just come together emotionally, we're both really good at weathering all these storms. Right? And so when you don't come together emotionally and you don't get that connection, then Melissa, you start to kind of unravel.

And then Drew, you sense she's unraveling or Melissa, sense that he's kind of distancing and, you know, it just all keeps playing off of itself. And so what is if, you know, some of it, like you said, is, yeah, we just don't have enough experiences. We don't have enough practice being in these really stressful situations. We're just now kind of learning how to do this in real life.

Right. And so in these really hard times, we don't have enough practice doing it. But if there is an element there of being scary to be the one to initiate that conversation, or what is scary? I'll start with you, Melissa.

What is scary about reaching to Drew and saying, hey, this is one of those moments where I just need to know you're OK, we're good, we're on the same team here? I think if that conversation misfires or, you know, we're... It's in passing, it's a busy moment with the kids or he's got not just the family stress and the kids stress, but the work stress and all these other things going on. And we somehow glaze over that conversation quickly and it doesn't stick or it isn't effective or he doesn't realize.

No, this is a big moment. I think for me as powerful as it is when he's very validating is as negatively powerful as it is when there's invalidation and it makes it that much worse and I feel afraid of it getting worse. So then I think which one do I want to take the risk of it getting worse or is this a good moment to try to make it better? Okay, so it's like you're choosing between feeling alone or feeling dropped and alone.

Yeah. Okay. So it makes sense to me that something in your body would say, hey, maybe it's better to feel alone than it is to feel dropped and alone. Yeah.

And what would drop to look like for you? Like, what would a response be from him that would take you to that bad place? Just making an attempt, putting it out there, and then you know, having it quickly brushed off or no, it's not that big of a deal or you know, we'll figure it out later or just any of those like. So it's like dismissed having your feelings kind of kind of dismissed.

Yeah. you're overreacting or we'll talk about it later. Yeah. Or just ignored.

in your body? Ignored completely. Ignored, okay. And then what comes up inside of you as you say those words, dismissed, ignored, completely ignored.

just angst. It's it's frustrating. It's, it's hard to reach out and be. I think I get angry then with myself, like...

You know, if you were, if you'd said it right or if you were appealing enough, if you were good enough, then this wouldn't be an issue. So just figure it out yourself. Okay, so there's all these layers here. On one hand, you're already feeling alone.

There's already the stress coming from the outside world. And then on top of that, you're afraid to kind of reach out and try to get some connection, get some reassurance, get some message from the person that you rely on more than anything else that you are good, you are doing a great job. We're here, I'm right here with you. You're not alone in this.

It's scary to ask for that because you've had all these experiences in this negative cycle and Drew, you have good reasons for, you know, responding in the way that you have in the negative cycle. But still the reality is, is that it hasn't gone well in a lot of situations and you have ended up walking away feeling dismissed or ignored. And then that feels bad and you feel dropped and your body says, this isn't where I want to be. And that tension wells up and then you You you might say on one hand, well, why can't he be there for me?

But then on the other hand, you say, maybe it's because of something I'm getting wrong. Maybe I'm not enough. If I was enough, then he would want to show up for me right now. And now you have another good reason to be suffering.

So no wonder you start to get, like I said, you start to sort of unravel as the trip goes by. And I know unraveling doesn't define you, because I know you were you know, keeping your head above water in a lot of ways. But inside, at least when it comes to the relationship, you're starting to just kind of panic, right? And there's a lot of good reasons for that.

And so do you mind maybe if I shift over here and just talk to Drew and kind of try to understand like, first of all, you know, there's something to be said for understanding what his block is to being the one to reach out. Because you both, I need both of you being the ones to kind of recognize this is happening and reach to each other in these moments. But I also want to understand, you know, what might happen for you, Drew, if she were to say, hey, Right now, I just need some something here, some kind of reassurance from you. I need some messages from you to kind of offset these messages I'm getting from the world right now.

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm generally open to that. I think part of my worry is, you know, if I were to go to her, it's like, you know, I try to gauge, you know, how... how she's feeling and how do get her to come back down? And I think that's somewhat of a struggle, especially when you're in kind of the heightened state of whatever the scenario or situation is.

I would say, you know, I... So notice just now these words you say to me, you say, how do I get her to come back down? which is very different from how do I join her in that right now. So that tells me you put a lot of pressure on yourself to kind of get her to come back down.

Like what does get her to come back down mean? Feel better? Feel okay? Yeah.

And I think for me it's that, you know, we're in this together. And it's, mean, based on our past sessions and kind of what I'm picking up on it, it is that, you know, I don't want her to be having to go through this by herself. and I want to go through it together as a team. But you know, yeah, go ahead.

Well, I'm just trying to kind of parcel out here. You are aware from these sessions that this isn't so much about making her feel better or getting her to not be upset. This work is more about joining her, helping her out. We definitely want to help each other.

That's where that kind of reassurance comes in. And join her in it so she's not alone in it. Like, is there a part of you that still kind of carries this idea that, you know, if she comes to you, somehow you're responsible for making it all go away and, this... Is there some pressure that comes up in you?

Yeah, I mean, I think a little bit. Again, it's kind of changing habits in the way that I think and the way that I validate with her, you know, and kind of understanding what her perspective is. and where she's at. And I wouldn't say that I've got that down pat quite yet.

Now, you're saying to me, look, I think I could have maybe handled it. I think I could have maybe shown up in the way that would have felt good for both of us. But you didn't get the opportunity to, because, you still understandably kind of carry around this fear. inside of you because you're already trying to field all the stuff that's going on.

So the last thing you want to do is feel worse. So maybe what the work is here, Drew, is just to kind of, you know, let me just ask you this. Does it make sense to you that she still carries around a little mistrust that reaching out can actually get us somewhere? Good.

Yeah, I mean, that's something we just actually spoke about maybe in the last 24 hours. think you shared that with me. so maybe just for me, since I'm kind of new to this conversation, maybe just look at her and say, hey, that does make a lot of sense why it would be hard for you to reach out if we've had all these experiences in the past with that taking us into these cycles. Yeah, Melissa, mean, I can definitely see where you're coming from and I can see how our past experiences has kind of led us in the same place of disconnect and frustration and sadness and.

Yeah, I I understand where you're coming from with that. And so you're doing a great job here, Drew, because you're not saying maybe something that you would have said in the past. I don't know. you're not saying, you can trust me.

I'm going to be better. I'm going to do better. I'm going to do better. You're just simply saying, hey, that fear makes you make sense to me.

Your fear makes sense to me. I get it. you're honoring that experience that she's having. And yes, we all want to go forward in a way where you guys can come together in these moments.

we're just practicing doing that right now. And so Melissa, how does it feel for you? I mean, it sounds like you've already had this conversation. So again, I'm kind of new to this, but does this feel good for you just to hear him get it and understand it?

I feel like we've - You're not crazy. Yeah, we keep trying to have this conversation, but it never goes this well. I think that it's really, really, really crazy how counterintuitive it is, but how effective it is. Like, it feels like the right thing to do is to jump in with a solution to fix it.

But when I hear you say something like, that makes a lot of sense. Like I'm right here with you. It provides so much more relief and peace and connection than any other solution. Like it is the solution to just like join with it and say, hey, I see that that makes a lot of sense.

That is a very, very peaceful, calming, relieving, safe feeling. Just to hear that you see it and you're in it with me, it feels more like a team. Like then there's this belief, we actually can tackle that together because you see it. Right, it's seen.

Your distress is seen. The pattern is seen. Your experience is being seen and shared. And so what happens then, it took me a while, this session, to kind of ground myself in this cycle.

again, sounds like you've got this energy coming at you from the other family members. Drew, it sounds like it was kind of easier for you to take it in stride, part of which is it's your family. Melissa, you're coming in as, I don't want to say an outsider, but. you know, the dynamics aren't as familiar for you and the relationships aren't the same.

so your body's having to take, I mean, first of all, just the judgment that comes at mothers to begin with is always hard. But so you're having to field all of this stuff in addition to, you know, just the work, just the physical work alone of going into making this happen for your kids. so you start to feel alone with it, but somehow you feel like... You you aren't able to reach each other and just kind of help each other out a bit.

And then you get, you start to get more anxious and then Drew, you start to, you're getting stressed too around the whole thing and you start to kind of pull away. And the next thing you know, you're back in that place. And so, but you couldn't talk about it, Melissa, because there's still this, you know, fear in your nervous system that says, I'm just hanging on by a thread here to get through this week. If I say something, And that doesn't go well.

And we go into a cycle, and I feel dropped. Then what am I going to do? mean, then what would you do? Then it would be exponentially worse.

Right. And then you run the risk of getting in a fight in front of these people that are already criticizing you for not having a good relationship, which is a horrible thing to say, by the way. and then so. Now, in this situation, we're kind of understanding, like, look, it makes a lot of sense that you wouldn't want to do that.

Maybe in that situation with where you guys are in your relationship, it was a good choice to not try to talk about our relationship amidst all this chaos. But next time, maybe you'll have a little more capacity to get through it. And you're saying, Drew, all I'm really needing is for you to just get it and see me and understand where I'm coming from. So I don't have to see you're feeling like crazy.

And Drew, you're You're more than capable of doing that right now. I'm seeing it in front of my own eyes. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree.

So this is a really good example of having a session where we kind of go back a little bit. we've been doing this work with Drew. Drew been getting you more emotionally engaged. so we kind of took a break from that deeper work with you and kind of went back.

And we just have to keep getting these repetitions of this work over and over. That's what really solidifies it. And so I think that probably from this session next time, you will have a much easier time reaching for each other because Melissa, you just got an experience that, wow, I can reach to be seen and understood. He's not saying, you're crazy for not reaching out to me.

I would have been there for you. You didn't even give me a chance. He's really just meeting you where you are. And I'm hoping that that gives your nervous system another reason to believe that we can actually get through this, you know, and Drew, hopefully your nervous system is getting a good reason to believe that all I really have to do is just meet her where she's at.

I don't have to overwork. I don't have to try to fix it. I don't have to try to go and like, you know, talk to all the family members. Maybe that would be a solution in another situation.

I don't know, but it doesn't require any of that right now. It just, all she's wanting to do is be held and joined in this. Yeah. All right, well, we'll go ahead and stop there and pick back up next week.

All right, Julie here for our ending segment. So let me say a couple of things here. After I listened to this session, I picked up on some other things. First, it occurred to me that Drew was more distressed by the family comments than he let on and that I even picked up on.

Like I said, he was distancing from himself and his bad feelings, not Melissa. And then he says to me a minute ago, if she would have come to me, I could see that maybe I would have in the past wanted to figure out how to help her come down. And when he says help her come down, what he's really saying is help her disconnect from her feelings like I disconnect from mine. And if that was a good solution, great, but it's not.

And they know enough to know that and they're both doing a great job. Drew was able to validate Melissa that he understands why it would have been hard for her to reach for help and how painful the situation is because she's had experiences where he starts trying to help her in the way he tries to help himself by dismissing it all. And Drew validated her fear. And Melissa says, that's what I need.

That's it. It's so simple. I just need to know that you see it too. You see how hard this is too.

to have these comments coming at us. You don't have to fix it. So going forward, the work here is definitely with Drew. Again, why is he needing to distance?

What is he distancing from within himself? What can we do to help him not have to distance from it and to instead get support from it, for it, and heal it? But what about the fix it? What about when the outside problem does need action?

In this case, I think Drew and Melissa were generally on the same page. Don't say anything to the family members. Don't rock the boat. This family member isn't going to change.

But is that the right answer? Well, the only right in this situation is to stand up to the behavior. And so what does that mean? What does stand up to mean?

Well, it can mean a few things. It might sometimes mean confronting the offending person with healthy assertion. not aggression, healthy assertions, saying, hey, I don't like that. Please don't make comments about my parenting.

And since it's Drew's family, I think in some situations, it could have been useful for him to say privately, I'm sure you don't mean any harm, but I'm going to need for you to not talk to Melissa like that. She deserves to feel safe here, just like we all do. But Melissa and Drew, decided not to go that route. And that's OK, too.

They decided the offending family member has too much of their own stuff going on for that to go well. And they chose not to make a scene. But they can still stand up to the behavior within themselves, which is saying to oneself, this feels bad. This isn't OK.

I don't deserve this. Instead of just taking it on as either the whole truth or as if you deserve it or to pretend it doesn't bother you, or to tell yourself you're being irrational. Maybe there's room for healthy self-reflection around others' judgment. And that's OK.

You can still stand up for yourself when someone presents information. Even when there's some kernels of truth in that, you can still stand up to the fact that they're not delivering it in a way that works for you. And of course, a great way to stand up to behavior is to get help doing so from someone else, like your partner. It feels good and supportive to hear another person say, that wasn't OK.

You don't deserve that. And have a safe place to talk about how the deeper feelings were triggered in you. This is why we call our partners and our friends and our loved ones. And we seek support when we've been wronged, because nobody likes to feel powerless and alone with our feelings.

And we need that support. when we're in a disempowering situation, we really need to balance that out with something empowering like support. And again, maybe there's some truth to what someone says, but that doesn't mean it's okay for them to share everything they think or deliver messages in a way that harms. And standing up to behavior assertively doesn't mean getting stuck in anger or being aggressive back.

If that's happening, You might have some work to do around that. All right, well, that's a wrap for this week. And if you're doing this work at home, I'm going to have homework to assist you with that on my website, thesecurerelationship .com. And for those of you needing to know how to get out of these negative cycles in your relationship, please check out my book Secure Love by me, Julie Manano, which parallels the work I'm doing here with Melissa and Drew.

I'll be doing a four-hour couples workshop for an even deeper experiential dive on September 28. You can find out more information about that at thesecurerelationship .com. And thank you again to Melissa and Drew and their bravery and vulnerability, which allows me to give this process, which is usually stuck in the therapy room. It allows me to give this back to the world.

And I'll see everyone. next week for episode 10. And please remember to go on Spotify or Apple and give us a five star rating to help us get the word out there. All right.

Well, thank you everyone and I'll see you next week.

Keep going deeper

Hand-picked for this episode: Negative Cycles

Self-paced course

Mapping Your Negative Cycle

Learn to name and map the exact cycle you keep getting stuck in, so you can step out of it together.

Explore the course

The book

Secure Love

Julie's bestselling guide to building lasting, secure connection — the foundation behind every episode.

Get the book

Membership

The Secure Love Club

Go live with Julie every other week, plus 100+ hours of past sessions and 25% off every course.

$100/mo · $1,000/yr

Join the Club

♥

Personalized support

Work 1:1 with a coach

Ready to apply this to your own relationship? Get matched with a Secure Relationship coach trained in Julie's approach.

Explore coaching