Session 19: Unpacking Shame and The Reality of Healing (Season Finale)

Jan 20

In this episode

The Season 2 finale digs into the roots of shame. Julie distinguishes shame from guilt, helping Brian see that his exhaustion and relentless drive for success are survival strategies designed to hide a core belief of being 'defective' or 'less than.' The session peaks as Brian practices asking for support instead of acting out. But a sobering update follows: despite deep connection and plans to reunite, old patterns re-emerged—proof that progress needs consistency to survive inevitable regressions.

Key takeaways

Shame says 'I am bad'; guilt says 'I did something bad'—the distinction changes everything.
Relentless drive and exhaustion can be survival strategies hiding a core sense of being defective.
Growth often looks like asking for support instead of acting out.
Recovery is not linear; regression is a normal part of the process.
Lasting change requires consistency to survive inevitable relapses into old patterns.

Session 18: Understanding the Anxious Partner - The Path to Accountability (Pt. 2)
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a couple's therapist and author of the book Secure Love. So today we're starting in a pretty difficult place. You know, Brian walks into this week feeling like. The target, like Bethany and I are just kind of teaming up to blame him for everything.
We start by really kind of level setting. I have to be direct with Brian and ask the really hard question, which is, are you willing to own your part in this negative cycle? Um, and, and stay with that part. It's not just owning it and, and darting away from it. It's owning it and really not following up with, but I had to do that because Bethany, X, Y, Z.
Because for this relationship to work, we just cannot stay in a dynamic where Bethany is the only one reflecting on her mistakes. And this isn't just for him to say, you know, yes, I own this and I'm [00:01:00] sorry. I also have to get him to own his part so we can work on the shame component of his behavior.
Because like I said last week, I need to get to that shame before we end our work together. And we're getting down to the line here. Shame needs healing. For Brian, it will eventually emerge that his shame tells him you are less than and to be not less than. He learned to do all this extra work in life to be successful, and that extra work gets him in trouble.
It depletes him. It causes him to be resentful and stressed and neglectful. And mean and reactive. And then on top of that, it doesn't work anyway because there's no amount of extra work or performance or success that will truly heal shame. Those things can do other good things for a person, um, but they won't heal.
Shame, shame needs a different kind of help, and until shame is healed, it will continue to create trouble. [00:02:00] So my confrontation today of Brian, as well as helping Bethany put more words to her pain around the time when their baby was born. We'll crack something open in Brian, and instead of just staying stuck in blame, he's going to start to really connect the dots today.
And we'll explore the, you know, good reasons, not effective reasons, but good reasons for his absence during that time, the trauma of miscarriages and a massive lawsuit and the crushing stress of trying to provide. But here's the thing, it wasn't just trying to provide, it was trying to over provide to prevent this deeply buried belief in him that maybe he is.
The worst truth ever. He was his, his over providing or his desire to overdo it, was trying to protect the worst truth ever from being uncovered. He admits that he felt helpless on every level, and [00:03:00] when his emotional resources were tapped, he had nothing left to give at home. And this is really going to lead to one of the, the most tender moments of the season.
Brian offers a genuine apology to Bethany and admitting to her that, you know, he let her and his family and himself down because his drive to succeed wasn't in healthy balance. It wasn't just about providing, it was also. A desperate attempt to prove his worth, even at the cost of the connection that he wanted most.
All right, so let's dive in. All right. Well, how's everything going? Um, not, not straight. Okay. I, I'm not surprised about that after our last session, but go ahead and talk to me.
Bethany: Um, you can chime
in whenever, but I will say after our last, last session, he, um. Is very concerned about the fact that like I, you know, he's the one [00:04:00] taking the mic and working through all of this stuff and like said that he feels like you and I think he's all to blame for this whole thing.
And nobody feels that way. And I tried to say, I can understand why you feel that way, but like listening to the, like Melissa and Drew podcast working, like your methodology when you would chime in. Middle sections and say like, I know, you know, she or he needs to talk about this, but I need to get the other person to this place before we, you know, address things.
Oh, I like, that was my thought process. And then,
Julie: alright, well
let's, let me jump into it because that's where I'm at today too. And, you know, we have a few sessions left. So, you know, the, the way that I see it and very clearly with the two of you and. Also, the only way this therapy works truly is that we have to buy into this idea of this negative cycle that we're both contributing to, that we both kind of found our way here.
Um, [00:05:00] you know, in equal but different ways. And, um, if that's not the case right then that means one of you is the bad guy, in which case that's not workable for, for one partner to be. You know, in a relationship with someone
who's just kind of all at fault here and bad and pathologized, um, and, you know, usually I might go a little bit slower with this, um, but since we're, we have limited time, I'm just gonna have to be a little more direct.
And, you know, Bethany, I, I do see that you're able to really own your part here. I feel like we've. You know, given the limited amount of time we've had, I feel like we've explored, I've kind of tried to understand more about what contributed to your parts in the cycle, some of the, you know, big stuff that Brian has brought up.
Um, but Brian, I'm not really getting the idea that you're willing to really kind of explore your part in the cycle. Um. This is something I [00:06:00] see quite a lot, which is we'll work with one partner and then we'll go over to the other partner, and when it comes time to explore that partner's moves in the cycle, what you've done that has damaged this relationship, then it starts to become, well now it's all focused on me.
It's like we forget. What we've done with the other partner. Um, the narratives just start shifting and there starts to be this real darting away from taking any responsibility. So I've gotta figure out whatever your parts in the cycle are. One, are you willing to own them? Two, are you willing to own the impact of them on the relationship?
And three, are you willing to explore kind of what caused you to need to behave in those ways? To begin with. 'cause it's not that you're being bad or choosing to do all these things, but if, if we're still in that place where, hey, we need to spend all the time on Bethany over here because Bethany's the real root of the problem.
You know, we're not, we're not gonna, this will not be a successful therapy. The relationship cannot go forward. I have to be able to understand [00:07:00] both of your moves. Both of the function of those moves and, um, ownership of that. So I think you're gonna have to tell me, you know, right now, are you willing to spend our last couple of sessions kind of looking at your part over here because you have some repairs to make too?
Brian: Yeah, I, I recognize that.
Julie: Okay. What do you mean when you say you recognize that?
Brian: I mean, I'm, I'm realizing in some of my own personal traumas that I probably brought into this relationship has shaped my behaviors, um, as to how I respond and react in certain situations.
Julie: Okay. Are you, you know, at this point in the therapy, what I would need is to have the couple, what we call buy the reframe, which is you come into this therapy with this idea that, well, it's all them, and if they would just change and then we need to get this reframe going, [00:08:00] that's.
Wait, we came into this kind of at an equal level of functioning and we got stuck in these cycles and we all started behaving in these ways that trying to manage all these big feelings that then kind of triggered the other person and caused them to go into their places. Like are you able to buy that reframe or is there still part of you that says No?
It's really kind of mostly her.
Brian: I don't really think of them blaming her. Um.
I'm trying to work through some of these sessions and using like, like some of our talks last week at the tail end of the week were, I felt like we were falling back into the original framework. That doesn't work. That doesn't work. And I
was trying to get her to realize that, you know, we need to take those steps in order to use this new blueprint.
And that's sort of why I felt [00:09:00] it was unsuccessful and why we got into a negative cycle. Um, 'cause we're, you know, we're still getting to that point where it's like, if I'm anxious through the weekend about whatever we spoke of, there's like little to no communication and like that doesn't do anything for me.
That's, that's like old framework stuff that, um. It just doesn't work.
Julie: Okay. So what you're, I guess what you're saying is, and first of all, you know a couple at the level of distress that you guys were at when we started, not so much now, but I would be working with 40 plus sessions. Okay. So there, the idea that these things are gonna go smoothly outside of here right now is very, very unrealistic.
I think where you are is where I, I would hope to have you. Pre 20 sessions, which is things are better. We're not having as many negative cycles. They don't get as intense as they did, and we repair faster. But by no [00:10:00] means you're, you know, the ideal of where you would like the relationship to be. So,
but what you're saying is, is look, I don't quite trust, kind of, you know, I'm, I'm starting to not so much trust the work in here because it's not outside of here.
I'm not seeing the shifts that I'm hoping to see. Is that what I'm hearing? Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so I guess, you know, there's a couple things. One is we can, I can continue to kind of educate you about realistic expectations, but I don't know if that's the best way to go here. Um, two is I can try to understand like, what would you need to feel safe?
'cause what you're saying is I don't completely trust going into my stuff. I'm not seeing enough change from her outside of here. And so I wanna know what would, you need to have an entire session where we kind of just look at your part and we're able to say, Hey, here's, you know, how I contributed, here's what was going on with that, and make some repairs on your end.
What, what it, what needs to [00:11:00] happen for you to be open to that? Brian: I think I need to get some trust back for her.
Julie: Okay. And then what does that look like?
Brian: I think her, her recognizing some of the things that, that she has done and, you know, sort of apologizing for, for those, those moves. Um, so, so I wouldn't say assuring that it's never going to happen again, but she's going to do, you know, the hardest work she can to make sure that, that that does not come back.
Into our relationship.
Julie: Okay. And so what we keep circling back to when I try to kind of understand more about your part is we keep circling back to, I'm, I'm really not gonna be able to do this until, you know, she's done this work. But I, I guess I'm missing something here because to me it seems like there has, there have been [00:12:00] apologies, there has been ownership, there has been.
Recognition and awareness and understanding more about what led her to do these things to begin with. Um, am I missing something there?
Brian: I I, I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something.
Bethany: I've, I've asked him even before we started this, like in certain scenarios, like, what do you need from me in this scenario? Right. And he has said, I don't know. And I'm like, well, I, I'm willing to do whatever, but like whatever I'm doing isn't working. So what do you need?
And, and I feel like he's never been able to articulate or specify what that, that looks like to him or what would deescalate him in a certain situation because it seems like whatever I say isn't the right thing, or I don't know. I mean, like whatever happened on Thursday night. You know, when you, when you came [00:13:00] at me the way you did, like, I responded, expecting him to hear me from a different place.
Julie: Okay. Pause. 'cause I'm, I wanna really be fast here 'cause we're, we're really getting down to the wire. Um, so I'm not going to really be able to continue getting you into vulnerability, Bethany, because I've done it. We've done it. I've, I've gotten you there. I've really helped you. I think on a personal level, if you can tell me if you agree or not, um, really understand a little bit more about your stuff here, take some ownership for it.
I believe there's been an apology. Am I missing that? No, I feel like I have apologized. Okay, so that is vulnerability. That's you being vulnerable. It's saying, look, I'm willing to put my own stuff to the side and kind of really dive into my side over here and what I've done wrong, even when he's not. So I can't do any more of that with her, [00:14:00] Brian, because it's not safe for her to keep doing the work and then come over here to you.
And when I start trying to do the work with you, the, the response is, well, I'm not willing to do that until she's willing to change. And I, I don't know that you're saying that directly, but that's the. The idea is it's like, well, I can't, I can't do this, and it's okay. It's not really my job to force you to do the work, but it is my job to say, Hey, the work isn't being done and I can't keep asking her to be vulnerable if I'm not getting the same over here from you.
Brian: Okay.
Bethany: And I feel like in some ways he has been, he has been vulnerable with his feelings.
Julie: Yeah. Vulnerable about his feelings, but there's also a different level of vulnerability. That's the willingness to put your own wounds to the side and figure out why am I reacting to her behavior in these really unhealthy ways?
Right. I, I don't want you to [00:15:00] stay in a relationship where, you know. You guys keep getting stuck in the same cycle and she's continuing to do her part and you know, that doesn't work for you and, and vice versa. But at the same time, I have to understand, you know, the worst partner in the world can't make their partner behave badly.
The worst partner in the world. We have to take ownership for our own behavior. And I can't nail that down on your side, Brian. I can get, I can get. Some of it, I guess, but last week it was like I couldn't even latch onto anything that you were willing to say, Hey, yeah, this is a problem.
Bethany: I think he thinks I'm not doing the work.
And that's because I'm not doing it. Maybe like he is like, like a lot of the self reflection and the off time or maybe not responding the way he does, I think, I don't know. That's my assessment.
Julie: I don't know what's going on outside of here as far as work goes, but inside of [00:16:00] this space I see you ve working very, very hard, Bethany.
I see you getting out of blame. I see you owner owning. I'm not seeing that so much on the other side. I think that there's a, a, a zone, Brian, where it, you are willing to risk and talk about, you know, painful things in the past, but then we hit this wall when it comes to really diving into your moves in the cycle.
Maybe I'll start with you Bethany. Like what are some things that, you know, we've talked about the ways you've wounded Brian, right? The, the, the dishonesty, the, the financial stuff, right? We've, we've gone there. Um, maybe we need to go there more because Brian, something is still kind of dangling for you over there.
Um, but we don't have time to do more of it in 20 sessions. So I wanna know Bethany, like what. What are your wounds about? What are the things that you can say in the relationship? Like, I can't go forward if that happens again. Or [00:17:00] you know, you're always playing defense, right?
Bethany: Yeah. I mean, a lot of my wounds focus around, and I've told you this, like my maternity leave when our baby was really little.
Julie: Okay, tell me more
about that. Let's talk about that. Like, give me, when did this, what's a, a moment that just really exemplifies this experience for you? Um,
Bethany: I think it's probably more of a, a theme than an actual moment.
Julie: Well, I, I understand that, but I want, you know, something to grab onto that is exemplifies the theme.
Bethany: Yeah, it's my baby and I kind of like being shunned. Julie: Okay, what is shunned? How did that look?
Bethany: Um, and I think part of it too is at the time his treatment or, or lack or, [00:18:00] or lack of attention towards her, which hurt me more probably than he hurt me. Does that make sense?
Julie: Yeah. So
tell me about that, because it, that still hurt you, right?
It came at her, but you still were hurt by it. And I wanna know about how that was hurtful to you, what that did to you emotionally.
Bethany: Yeah, it was,
I mean, it was a, a, I feel like a a, especially when she was really little, a daily occurrence where it was, she wasn't. He didn't pay attention to her, or he didn't talk to her, or she fussed and we had to like exit the living room and go sit in her nursery because she was fussy.
It was, you know, because there wasn't, okay, so let me tell me that story again. There wasn't even a story. It was just like, if, if he got home from work and she started to fuss in the evenings, it was eye rolling. Can you take her outta trying to watch a show?
Julie: All right, so [00:19:00] this is the part where you're, you've been with the baby all day, you wanna come home, have, feel emotionally supported.
Yeah. Right. You wanna feel like, Hey, we can tolerate a baby being a baby here.
Bethany: Yeah. There was never tolerance of a baby being a baby.
Julie: Okay. And so what is, if we just talk about like, what's the message in that, that you're getting
Bethany: That he doesn't want her, he, that he doesn't? Um, value me as a mother because it was, it always came back on me like, I'm coddling her or she become, you know, she's more important than I am and having to be alone
and anything that was like a gripe of mine for the day. Whether it was the dog got out right, the dog jumped the fence. I had to leave the [00:20:00] baby in the crib to go chase the dog down the street, or the dog did this, or the dog did that. It was like, oh yeah, your life is so hard. You're on a vacation. You get to stay home all day, and those are your biggest gripes.
But I have rent that's due from tenants. I have this, I have that. My shop is this, my shop? Is that like it was, everything was more important on his end and more difficult.
Julie: So did that leave you feeling like, um, abandoned and less than, or Bethany: abandoned Less than
you know what I, let's, I'll always, I'll slow say,
Julie: hold on, hold on.
You wanna go into your head, right?
Bethany: Yep.
Julie: But right now we're gonna just stick with abandoned and less than it sounds like, for a good amount of time. That's kind of what you were walking around with.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay, so let's just slow down there. I want you to, you know, is this when the sadness comes up
Bethany: so [00:21:00] much.
Julie: Okay, so let's just slow with this. The sadness needs space. These tears are just appropriate.
Bethany: And this is probably where I get like the most heated because I still to this day don't feel like,
Julie: well see how you, you, you pop out, right?
Bethany: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julie: You pop out and you go into the anger. The anger is the place that says, no, this wasn't okay with me. This is how I wanted it to be. Right, right. And then I don't know how that comes out to him. Um, how does it come out in the cycle? Actually, the, the, on the one, the, the bottom most layer is this abandoned, lonely place.
Then your body mobilizes into the anger, which is, this isn't how I want it to be. And then what do you, how does it show up in this cycle?
Bethany: I just stopped
talking about my day. Um, I didn't really [00:22:00] share any. Julie: So at
first, did you try to reach him? Did you try to get him to hear you? Did you try to bring attention to the problem and then nothing helped and.
Bethany: Um, maybe I don't, I don't really remember, but I, I, Julie: okay.
Bethany: I don't, I don't.
Julie: So, so you didn't, so much your, your way of dealing with these feelings was just pull back. Pull back,
Bethany: uhhuh.
Julie: That's how you were trying to stay safe. Lower your expectations just make, get small. Is that
Bethany: Yeah. I just made it like she and I weren't.
Julie: Do what I can. Okay. So that was your way of staying safe from this pain that you were feeling inside that didn't seem like you could, there was any relief for it, right?
Right. Because alone requires, but the remedy to alone and abandon in the context of the relationship does require the other person to, to do some shifts. So you don't feel left alone with it. Right. But that wasn't [00:23:00] happening, so you went in and relied on your inner resources.
Bethany: I would also say like, it was somewhat embarrassing at times too because like my, my family would come over, right?
Or, and they would say afterwards like, wow, I've, I've never seen anybody like not engage with their child or be so disengaged with their child the way
that he is.
Julie: Okay. And so that left you feeling like embarrassed, like. What's wrong with me that I don't have a partner who can be show up Like what's, yeah.
And then the fear is that your parents and family are thinking what? Like what's embarrassing? What were you afraid they were thinking?
Bethany: I think they felt bad, but I think they felt like, what is she gonna do if this is like the trajectory of it and which is how I felt at the time too. Like, is this how it's gonna be forever and ever?
Julie: Okay, so there's a lot of [00:24:00] layers here and I wanna come back, but right now I kind of wanna shift over him and try to do some work with him. Do you mind?
Bethany: No, that's fine.
Julie: Okay. All right. So Brian, you know, we, we know, we've talked about at length, the value in, you know, seeing the value in your alone and abandoned feelings in this relationship.
Like, what happened for you around the wedding, what happened for you with this financial stuff? I wanna see if you can. See the, the value in healing some of her feelings like her loneliness and abandonment, we see, you see the value in
doing yours right, and her showing up for yours. But do you see some value in you showing up for hers and kind of trying to step into her world around this?
Brian: Yeah, I do.
Julie: Okay. All right. So what I would like to do then is understand a little bit more about. What was going, first of all, did, does this feel a straightforward for you? Do you, do you see Yeah, that there's some truth to [00:25:00] that? Like I did not have a lot of involvement in the baby. Emotional involvement.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And tell me more about that. Did the baby feel like a threat? Did um.
Brian: No, I mean, for me, I, I, I felt like first and foremost, like I just hearing it, you know, I feel ashamed. Um, it's not my, my brightest moment. Um, and at, at the time I was going through some stuff, um, with, you know, lawyers and the shop and, and everything like that, and I just was. It was too overwhelming for me to like handle two massive, like big things going on simultaneously.
Um, and, and emotionally I just sort [00:26:00] of like checked out. Like I just, I wasn't there. Um, I wasn't there to support her. Um, I feel bad about it. I can definitely see. Some of the feelings that I've felt towards her and sit situations that they're almost identical and, and if I'm sitting there saying that I want her to show up this way, and I just sort of abandoned her.
Julie: Okay. Julie, here. So we just did some really important work. You know, Brian. Able to really sit with his abandonment of Bethany after the baby was born. They were able to talk about the pain and the overwhelm and the fear around the miscarriages and the hospitalization. And this is really what Bethany has been needing.
And it did require that Brian lean more heavily into ownership. And you know, we [00:27:00] can't explore what we can't own. But it doesn't end here because remember. I'm also trying to get to the shame piece, and so that's the direction that I'm going to take us and where I'm going to go is to this other piece of the
puzzle and it shows us itself when he says It was too overwhelming for me to handle two massively big things going on simultaneously.
So here's the threat, and first, let me say this. We all find ourselves in overwhelming predicaments. That's part of life, and, and we don't always have control over that. But I'm, I'm still really needing to get to the shame here. And
the truth is that sometimes we find ourselves in overwhelming predicaments because it's self-inflicted.
We put too much on ourselves and Brian has already admitted that he said himself, I overwork. I'm a perfectionist. I take on too much. So, this might sound [00:28:00] harsh, but to some degree, he brought the overwhelm on himself. It didn't just happen out of the blue. It wasn't an unexpected illness or
natural disaster.
Um, the truth is that he was juggling too much. He was trying to juggle too much, and then when it all came to a head, he couldn't, he couldn't manage in a way. That he had anything left to give emotionally to his family, and I do need to link this all to shame because what I need to happen. It's for his shame to start healing.
So he no longer needs to overperform and put too much on his plate that it doesn't allow for any wiggle room and exhaust himself to manage it all. Not just because that's a healthier way to live for him as an individual, but so he has something left to give his family and so he isn't always so on edge and vulnerable to, you know, the next thing that comes along that interferes with his [00:29:00] ability to.
Keep all of this together. That's too much to begin with. And so that's my mission, uh, here, which is, is this shame work. So let's go back in. Alright. Well I appreciate you, you know, your ability right now to, to see that, you know, hey, this, this did have an impact. A lot of the feelings you guys are struggling with are are the same.
So what I wanna know is, you know. You have some pr, we know the reasons aren't working here, but you had some pretty good reasons to have to shut off. That was so you were staying safe from something. I don't believe there's any part of you that was like, I'm gonna neglect her. I'm gonna abandon her. I'm just
gonna shut her out.
I mean, I don't think that, I think that you were trying to stay safe from some pretty powerful feelings of your own, and I'd like to know more about that so we don't have to keep dealing with these feelings if they come up again in life in the same way.[00:30:00]
Brian: Okay.
Julie: So you said, you know, just jumping in here, you said, look, I was overwhelmed. There was so much going on.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Did, did the baby kind of re represent to you like a already, like you're, you don't have the resource and capacity to keep up with all the responsibilities you already have and that kind of tip?
The scales or,
Brian: yeah, like. Before, before this even happened, you know, I, I was adamant of not wanting it to have another child. Uh, we had gone through a couple miscarriages and it was hard for me to understand. Like the emotions behind it, because it was, it was such a high, followed by like such an extreme low, and I didn't, I didn't like those ebbs and flows.
Julie: What do you mean by [00:31:00] that? Can you tell me more about that? What was the high
Brian: The high was like, oh, we're pregnant, and the, the first time around it was. It was a really good feeling. I got into, we're gonna decorate the room this way. Oh wow. We're gonna, we're gonna do that. And you know, if it's a boy, you know, here's some names, like if it's a girl, here's some names.
And I got so caught up in it and like maybe six weeks later it just came crashing down. And that first time I fell. Like I, our, our feelings were on like the same plane. And then the second time it happened, I was a little less responsive to it, or, or the, the, the duration didn't last as long. And then, you know, like years went by and, and like, you know, my, my daughter was.[00:32:00]
Almost nine at that time, and the thought of like losing sleep and changing diapers and all these other responsibilities, like I was really in the swing of like my business. It was going in the direction that I wanted and I was just too busy to take on. More. And I didn't want that.
Bethany: And you said that,
Julie: okay, so I wanna go back. I don't wanna miss this, this miscarriage thing. I think this feels very important to me. There might be more to this than we, than I know at least. Um, what happened for you? Like when did you find out about this, this miscarriage?
Brian: You mean like year or
Julie: No, like you, you, you said six weeks.
Like for six weeks. You feel like excited and joyful.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah, I did.
Julie: And what happened?
Brian: It just was taken [00:33:00] away.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
So close your eyes and just tell me what comes up when you, when we say those words together. That I felt joyful. I felt so excited. And then, bam, it's just taken away like a child. The, the idea of a child. It's six weeks of having hopes and dreams of this baby. It was, and you let yourself get invested.
Brian: It was
Julie: So what happens?
What comes up as, as you put some words to that, that sounds like a lot of pain.
Brian: It was extremely painful. Yeah, it was extremely painful. I was like, I was like really bought in on it, you know? The thought of like having a, a boy together and, and the timing of it.
Julie: Tell me about the pain, like what was painful?
A loss, was it? [00:34:00]
Brian: Yeah, it was, it was a loss.
Julie: Okay. So did, do you feel that you had a period of grieving. Brian: Yeah, I think we grieved together.
Yeah, it was, it was really tough because it just, you know, we were both pretty healthy people and you know, you know, we worked out, we ate good, you know, well, why was this happening to us, you know? Um, and so quickly.
Julie: So was that like a kind of a helpless place? Like, we've done everything right. We've checked all the boxes and still here we are.
Yeah.
Brian: Yeah. Very helpless.
Julie: Okay. And then, you know, going fast forward to the baby's born and now, well first of all, the hospital, the, just the delivery probably is a helpless feeling for you too.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Something about the hospital, [00:35:00] something about, you know, you're used to having a lot of control over your life and how things turn out.
You sort of have to let go and put your safety and your wife's safety and your baby's safety into the hands of the medical establishment and then she gets, has to stay in the hospital.
And you've mentioned that that was pretty traumatic for you two.
Brian: It was. It just felt like you'd done all this work for nine months and. Like something was wrong, something was maybe gonna happen, and then, I don't know, I just, I dunno. I felt like something, somebody wasn't telling me something or I wasn't smart enough to connect the dots that something was really wrong.
Julie: So you, you felt like something was, it was worse than they were telling you?
Brian: I remember feeling that. Yeah. [00:36:00]
Julie: And what if that would've been true? Well, like were you worried that she was actually going to die, or,
Brian: uh, I'm not sure exactly what I was thinking. It just, it just didn't make sense to me that she couldn't come home with us, like, you know, when we were released.
Julie: And what was it like for you, just on an emotional level to not be able to bring your baby home?
Brian: I'm trying to think back to then, because. I remember just getting that like terrible blow like hours before she went into labor and I was like, ha, half of my attention or my thoughts was on that.
And then the other part, I just felt like I was just floating, you know, like I, like I really wasn't even here. Like it wasn't, I don't know.
Julie: So I'd like to know, [00:37:00] you know, since we're doing this emotional work here, 'cause I think you're used to just not really staying with this place. I'd like to know just what's coming up for you.
Just putting some words to this place that you don't really use, usually give a lot of attention to.
Brian: I just felt helpless, unlike every level. Mm-hmm. Like the fate of our kid, the fate of, you know, my shop or the, the business was just in somebody else's hands and I just had to get on my hands and knees and, and beg or pray for things to go smoothly.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. So again, you're, you're used to being someone who has had to sort of help yourself in life. You haven't really been able to rely on others for help, and here you are in a situation [00:38:00] where bam, you, you have to rely on other people and you're going through this lawsuit where you have very little control.
It's you against the state.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Who has the power there?
Brian: They do.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: It was really, really hard time.
Julie: And I wonder, is there, was there a part of you that
you know was kind of taking, beating yourself up for how did I find myself in this position?
Brian: Yeah, definitely. Definitely for the shop. Like I just felt like I put myself and my family in the position to. You know, sort of take everything away from them.
Julie: Okay. What, how did that work? What did you do specifically? That put everything at risk.
Brian: Uh, I, you know, I had to, I had to push it to[00:39:00]
get the place up and running. Um, it had to be this spot or. You know, just, there was a lot of guilt there that like, I just, I took it too far.
Julie: And what, what was sort of driving that, um, that need to take it too far. What were you hoping for? And I, I don't know that you were saying to yourself, this is too far.
When you're doing it, you're probably just saying to yourself, I gotta, I gotta take it all the way. What was driving that?
Brian: Like, my business was sort of in my house like, and. I knew that like these changes were gonna be, you know, we couldn't have guys like coming back to grab trucks because I, like, my shop used to be outside the back of our home and like I knew that [00:40:00] the baby would be taking naps and you know, I just didn't want those disruptions in our house.
Julie: So what, what would've happened if the trucks were driving in and out and your baby's trying to sleep?
Brian: There would've been a lot of strain, I think, on Bethany and I was trying to alleviate that.
Julie: So you're trying in this place of, of what you said was, I took it too far. Is actually was trying to protect your family.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So let's just sit with that for a minute. You were trying to protect your family. What's so bad about trying to protect your family?
Brian: There was nothing bad about it.
Julie: No. You know, but everything's a gamble and it somehow, it, you know, seems like it's paid off now, but somehow it, things weren't, [00:41:00] weren't working out like you'd wanted him to.
You get this lawsuit and here you are, you're trying to protect your family, and then you start saying, maybe this doesn't define you, but then you start saying, this is my fault. I took it too far. I should have never tried to do all of this.
Brian: Yeah, it was, it was like the first time I, I dabbled in like the commercial, um, end of things.
You gotta put like your big boy pants on. And I just didn't quite have big boy pants at the time. And uh, it just felt like it was, everything was blowing up in my face and I was scared, you know, not only for my family, but what it would do to Bethany and i's relationship if it would strain it. 'cause it's supposed to be such like a, a wonderful time.
And so much happiness and joy around it, [00:42:00] and it just wasn't,
Julie: yeah. And a lot of this was just out of your control. Right. And again, you know, other people who had, you know, grown up with less trauma and didn't have to constantly just rely on themselves to make everything work, maybe wouldn't have had all that pressure, you know.
Brian: Yeah,
Julie: but you had to rely on just yourself. And so here you are and it's all, and you've been so good at getting things done and you've been so good at accomplishing it, but we all have that point at which we get our resources are overwhelmed and that hit all at once.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So somehow the shop's not working out like the way you wanted.
Then you have the lawsuit, and now you have this new baby.
What was that like for you emotionally during that time? You said helpless. [00:43:00]
What were you helpless against? Protecting? Joy?
Brian: Never thought of joy, but yeah, I felt, I felt helpless to, to joy. Julie: Right. And, and you told me before, like, I love Christmas. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Clearly this family happiness is so important to you and you're trying to recreate that and everything isn't working out, and you let your guard down with the first baby and you let yourself enjoy it, and then bam, something happened there.
Brian: Yeah. It was just taken from,
Julie: yeah, and then it happened again.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So there's so many layers to this. It's not just the business, it's not just the lawsuit. It's not [00:44:00] just the responsibilities of of being a new father to a new baby, but then you have your older daughter to think about and you have Bethany to think about. And then you've had these two experiences where you got excited, you let yourself get excited, and then bam, you lose, you lost it.
Then on top of that, you have this chi, all these childhood experiences of losing good things.
Brian: Yeah,
Julie: it makes a lot of sense to me that something important happens that you couldn't engage with the baby.
I think Bethany wasn't able to make sense of it. She just sees you being checked out. When did you talk about this stuff?
We didn't.
Brian: It just, you know, it came out in the form [00:45:00] of just arguments. Like, you're not doing this, you're not doing, and you know, I just felt like paralyzed.
Julie: So I want you to tell her right now, you know, just my whole life. I was able to keep it together. I've been, I've gotten so good at being able to keep it all together and, and it, in that period of time, it just, I, I was helpless.
I was in despair. Can you just share that with her right now so she knows a little bit more about your burden during this time?
Brian: Yeah. I've always. A lot in, in just manhandling everything. And when those things happened, I just was just paralyzed and helpless when I couldn't be there for you in that time.
I'm sorry.
Bethany: I said thank you
Brian: I'm, I'm ashamed. [00:46:00]
Bethany: I don't want you to feel ashamed.
Julie: Well, let's, let's talk about that shame, right? What do, what do you believe that you did wrong here? And I understand there's truth to that you both have done wrong. People do wrong.
Brian: I mean, I let her down. I let her family down.
I let myself down and I'm not making excuses for it. It's just like how I prioritize things in my head was that if, if I wasn't able to conquer this one sector, then.
Would we have a home to, you know, raise a kid in and would we have resources to, to [00:47:00] do so if I didn't fix this massive gaping hole in my life?
Julie: Yeah. You know, I really, again, I, I really get that this was your way of. Protecting your family, keeping everything safe and feeling safe within yourself by doing so, and nobody is going to thrive when they feel that they're doing
everything they can in their power, everything they know, and bam, it still just keeps failing.
It's one thing to put all the work in and have it all work out. It's another thing to put all the work in and see it all kind of crumbling around you.
Brian: It was everything. Everything was crumbling, everything. Julie: And then you're saying to yourself, well, I've gotten it wrong here. Right?
I, I'm letting everyone down. But what if those efforts would've paid off? What if it [00:48:00] it, the, the, the system like it has in the past for you? What if it did work out? Then would you have said, I let everyone down, or would you have
Brian: No, I probably would've carried on with like the same confidence or arrogance that I'll just keep getting closer to the flames without getting burnt it, and that like becomes a game.
Julie: You're taking some risks here because, you know, you kind of have to, to keep everything going. If you don't take the risk, what is gonna happen if you don't try to get the shop, if you don't try to deal with the lawsuit and
Brian: things would've been okay. It just probably wouldn't have been to my standard.
Like I, when I, I look back on that. That [00:49:00] whole time period, like, it sounds dramatic, but like there was like a part of me that like died in that stress.
Julie: Your coping mechanisms didn't play out the way you were used to them playing out.
Brian: No, it it, like, it fried some wires in me.
Julie: You lost a lot of confidence.
Brian: I don't know if it's confidence, but it just, it just shook me to my core. It, it scared me to my core. I mean, I, I, I remember like every day it rained and every day it snowed.
I just thought this is gonna be the day that it, like, it, it collapses the state road and my property. You know, you got attorneys on salary [00:50:00] and how am
I gonna rebuild the building, pay for an attorney? You know, I, I'll just die trying and I could just see like, you know, the road collapsing, the building going, my marriage going, everything just going to a really negative place.
Julie: I'm, and I know a part of you can, can make sense of this as we're doing now, that sometimes life piles up on us. And it could have worked out, it could have all worked out, but it wasn't working out as planned. And I wanna know about that part. That sort of made sense of it as well. This is my failure. I failed.
What did you do to fail? You took too much risk. You, you were stupid. You were, I'm just trying to figure out. Where your mind goes to, that was your failure.
Brian: I was just too busy to begin with [00:51:00] and like I used to take pride in like biting off a little bit more than I could chew and then getting comfortable with it, but. It always worked out for me in the, in the past, but this time it was, it really bit me.
Julie: Okay. So you let yourself get too busy, you let yourself try to do too much. Okay. And was it like, how did you make sense of that as. Being about like was it like, well, I got, I got selfish. I got greedy. Alright, Julie, jumping in. So I just wanna clarify that I'm using the words selfish and greedy, not because I think those words are accurate ways to describe Brian because I don't, uh, what I'm trying to do is bring to life the ways [00:52:00] he might be making sense of himself somewhere deep in there because.
The negative self beliefs are what? Take us to the shame. The cognitive beliefs are what takes us to the emotional experience of shame. So I'm really trying to uncover what those negative self beliefs are, and I trust that when we get clear what the words, the feeling of shame will follow, which needs to be felt and
tolerated so it becomes less powerful.
And since some people are just so connected with these parts of themselves, they need more help finding the words. To name the belief. So I'm trying to give him a little more help with that and tell those words. Eventually we find the right words that become his own.
Brian: Yeah, I think so. I, I certainly didn't count my blessings, you know?
Julie: Okay. And then again, was that like greedy? I'm just trying to understand what you told yourself like about you.
Brian: [00:53:00] I, I guess it was greed. It had to have been greed, you know, like I had a shop, it was fine, but I had to take it to the next level. And
yeah, I guess I got greedy.
Julie: Okay. And then what about you in your mind? Got got, was a, you know, fell into greediness.
Brian: What about me? . Got greedy?
Julie: What kind of people get greedy? This is, again, we're just talking to this part that beats yourself up and, you know, I mean, there, there, there's certainly room here for healthy guilt, right?
Which is, oh man, I messed up, I didn't handle all of this in the best way possible. But then we, we can cross this line into. What is wrong with me? Fundamentally, [00:54:00] that led me to these failures and maybe that's there and maybe it's not. It's not always there most of the time. That's the shame. The shame says, what is it about me?
And then we go about trying to hide that. The whatever it is about you in your mind, that's when we start trying to hide it.
Brian: I'm
trying to think of why I got greedy.
Bethany: And I don't know, I think like if you build it, they will come. That's what comes to mind. Partly you
were trying to scale the business too.
Julie: Yeah. I mean, there, let me, let me say this and we're, we'll probably have to stop here and we'll go back into it. We did some great work today, but just give this some thought because you know, there's always this part that we can make, easily make sense of it as, Hey, you were.
You know, some of this is less about greed and more about trying to keep everything going and take care of your family. I don't know that that's exactly greedy, but I do know that there was a part of you that told yourself it was greedy [00:55:00] and then we have this next step, which is what about you was so greed?
What? What caused you to behave in a greedy way? Just talking to this part that has some beliefs around that. Maybe it's just, well, there's this part of me that's a greedy person, or enough's never enough, or I'm too, my standards are too high, and that sometimes that gets in the way of others. I don't know.
Brian: It's, it's definitely like, you know. The next thing. The next thing is it's just, it's never good enough. You know, it's, it's always gotta be something, but it's, I felt like once I got this part done, then that was like sort of the foundation for where I was gonna go next.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: So the greed I think was basically my [00:56:00] own self-centered. Business moves that I wanted to do.
Julie: All right, so there's the words. I'm looking for self-centered. Is there a part of you that believes that maybe some of me is just self-centered?
Brian: Yeah, I think think so.
Julie: All right. And then, and somehow because of this self-centered part, I keep finding myself in these messes.
Well, what I want you to do is just chew on that and we'll meet again in a couple days. Again, you're doing some incredible work. I'm really, you know, it's commendable that you're able to hang in here and I think you're gonna, you know, really grow and heal from this because of what you're willing to do right now.
So, okay, Bethany, how are you doing?
Bethany: Okay.
Julie: Okay. All right, well let's pick up in a couple days. Alright, so I just [00:57:00] want to sit with the weight of that apology for a moment. You know, we traveled a long distance today from defensiveness and feeling blamed to a place of profound accountability. You know, Brian started this session really kind of resisting the work, but by the end, he was able to look Bethany in the eye and own his absence, and we were able to uncover what was really happening underneath it in the service of working through it, so it doesn't keep hijacking his life and his relationship with Bethany.
And our next session is going to be an extension of today. So we're going to pick right back up where we left off. So for your homework this week, I want you to really look at where you are over-functioning in your life. Are you too busy or working too hard? So just ask yourself, what feelings are you trying to outrun?
Are you, are you trying to avoid [00:58:00] these beliefs and, and feelings around just ordinary or just adequate or even less than? And what that means, what is that pursuit costing your relationship right now? So we would love to hear your insights. Please send us a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and your story might be featured in a future episode.
So thank you all for being here, and thank you to Bethany and Brian for helping us all walk through this journey together. And until next time, take care of yourselves and your relationships.

RegulationRepairAttachment Styles

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 19: Unpacking Shame and The Reality of Healing (Season Finale)

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Understanding Shame

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

The Season 2 Debrief: A Live Q&A with Julie

Session 18: Understanding the Anxious Partner - The Path to Accountability (Pt. 2)