Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me

Nov 18

In this episode

When Brian becomes convinced that Bethany just doesn't care about him, Julie Menanno unpacks how easily a hurting partner gets misread as malicious. She introduces the 'they're hurt' reframe—learning to read distancing or defensiveness as pain rather than indifference—and shows how it begins to soften the negative cycle. The session offers a practical prompt for interpreting a partner's behavior more generously, so couples can break the loop of assumed malice and respond to the vulnerability underneath.

Key takeaways

A partner who seems not to care is usually hurt and self-protecting, not indifferent.
Assuming malice fuels the negative cycle; the 'they're hurt' reframe interrupts it.
Reading behavior more generously changes how you respond—and how your partner responds back.
Feeling uncared for is often a story we tell ourselves, worth checking against reality.
Small shifts in interpretation can de-escalate a chronically reactive dynamic.

Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I'm author of the book Secure Love. So today's session comes after a long holiday break. And just for context, we recorded these sessions a year ago. Uh, this session was at the very beginning of this year, and after the time away we lost some momentum in the therapy, which is very normal.
Uh, Bethany and Brian were not in. A good spot and I wasn't surprised. It's still early in the work, especially for a couple, you know, in as much pain as these two, you know, it's still early in this work, especially for a couple that is in as much pain as Bethany and Brian. And when you take a break without having consistent practice with the new tools, it's really easy to revert right back to old negative cycles.
And then of course, the longer we go with the work, the more it does start to stick outside of [00:01:00] here for longer stretches of time. So you're gonna hear right away, Brian's going to lead with how he's just kind of checked out,
he's hurting, he's going to ask, I really don't see this progressing. You know, is this insanity?
He is able to see how this work is helping in other areas of his life with his employees, with his daughter. But he is seeing blocks with Bethany and he is just sending mixed signals. A good moment followed by, I'm just ready to go. And part of what is going on with him is he doesn't have a realistic idea of how couples therapy works and the time involved, and especially how that's also relative to the state of the relationship when we start.
And then, you know, he doesn't understand quite yet that we're not just doing skills work that we have, to keep doing the nervous system work. Alongside the skills work and the sessions for it to really start clicking into place. And part of that is just he's in a lot of pain and he wants relief yesterday.
And I get that. And [00:02:00] then Bethany, on the other hand is trying really hard, but she's walking on eggshells. You know, she feels like Brian's triggers are so high that she just never knows what's going to set 'em off. And then when they get into these cycles, she just feels like she's being punished. But the core of this session, um, the thing that is blocking all of our progress is Brian's unshakeable narrative that Bethany is actually out to get him.
You know, I, I have to say to him this session, this is unworkable. You know, you can't be vulnerable with someone that you believe is maliciously trying to just hurt you. So we're going to explore how real this fear is for him. You know, we have to understand whether or not this fear that she's out to get him is speaking the whole truth, or if there are.
Other ways to look at the situation they're in. Maybe it's not just explained by, she's out to get him. You know, both of their behaviors are symptoms of the root [00:03:00] problem, emotional unsafety they've built together via these negative cycles. And that neither of them came to the relationship with the emotional tools to navigate normal conflict in a way that prevented negative cycles and prevented more wounds from building up, which is, this is the case for all struggling couples.
But Brian hasn't completely bought into that idea yet, and so the only real alternative to. These are cycles that we're both contributing to is this narrative that, well, it just must be her. And we're going to see how Brian's, I'm done, I'm leaving. Move that he keeps circling back to is actually a powerful protective strategy.
It's his way of rationalizing the pain and giving himself permission to get out. And my job today is to drill deep, to get him to understand why this narrative exists and challenge to see him if he [00:04:00] can, even for a moment. Reframe it and see how it's contributing to this negative cycle. And some of you might be wondering, just in case is aren't avoidant partners the one who usually want to just escape and get out?
Yes, but usually if an avoidant partner says, I'm done, they're done. There's, they're just that they mean it when they say it. And a lot of times when an anxious partner says, I'm done there, at least in part they're saying that out of a place of protest, you know, in these sessions, the surface problems are going to change from session to session, but the emotional work is all the same.
We just continue to give them new experiences with talking about hard things in new emotionally safe ways. And eventually, as we just keep doing these reps session after session, it's going to start sticking outside of here. All right, but before we dive in, let's hear from you, the listeners, and to kick it off, we have an email here from [00:05:00] Anna.
Hello, Julie. First, I just wanna say how deeply grateful I am for the work you're doing. I truly believe what you're sharing through your podcast and EFT work
has the power to change so many relationships. Mine included. So for some background, my husband and I dated for about a year before getting married.
Things were easy and light back then. I rarely voiced my emotions, and we just didn't have much conflict. Obviously, I know I must have an anxious attachment, but I have sometimes wondered and wanted to blame him. That if I become more anxious of a person throughout the course of our marriage, looking back, I can see that he tended to stonewall and I had a lot of patience for it then.
But in our first year of marriage, after our first baby was born, the same conflict patterns kept showing up and got uglier. I became determined to understand why we were stuck, which is how I eventually found EFT and your podcast. By the time I discovered your work, we were three years into marriage. I just bought a house and were expecting our second baby.
At a [00:06:00] real low point, my husband was resistant to listening or engaging in the beginning, which was very painful. In the past couple months though, he started to make genuine efforts. Now that he's trying, I'm realizing how hard it is for me to come out of survival mode. I think I've numbed myself emotionally for a long time.
We've had moments of reconnection that feel peaceful and so good, and then the next day I'm easily triggered back into hopelessness again. It happens so fast. So my question is this, as the anxious partner who has spent years in survival mode, how can I start to trust my husband, regulate my anxious and hopeless feelings, and begin to truly come out of that state, especially now that my husband is finally showing up.
Hi Anna. So to start, I just wanna say how much I appreciate the feedback. You know, it's everything to me to know that I'm making a difference, so thank you for that. And to your question, I think that, you know, sometimes gaining new awareness of problems can feel good and also bad at the same time, because while there's some [00:07:00] relief and being able to see this, you know, it's, it's hard and it's, it's frustrating to not know what to do with it.
And it's a, a growing pain to, so to speak. And, and I just wanna encourage you to hang in there. All growth really does start with awareness. Even it, even when it can feel kind of discouraging at first. So specifically about your relationship with your husband and. When you can expect your nervous system to settle in and let its guard down.
And I have, I have two answers to that. So one is that, you know, when it comes to trust and trusting new things, there's nothing that can replace time and repeated experiences of something new. So what I would say is that part of the work is the relationship, being able to hold your mistrust and fear. So it's not like we're trying to rush through and get to the trust place, [00:08:00] which will be nice, you know.
But part of the work is bringing that mistrust into the fear in, into the relationship and, and that work for you. Looks like being able to give yourself permission and acceptance for that. For that experience, which is understandable and, and for you that sounds like, you know, of course I have a hard time trusting that's what happens when people have been hurt and dropped and emotionally neglected, and I can accept that part of me for now.
And then the relationship work is sharing these feelings with your husband vulnerably, which, can sound like, you know, my heart was so hurt during those vulnerable times. I'm not even putting all the blame on you, but the hurt was real. And you know, if I'm going to let my guard down, my body really needs to have new experiences.
And one of those new experiences we can do right now, which is knowing that you can understand my mistrust and accept [00:09:00] that part, this part of me that does have a hard time trusting, I need to know that that's okay with you. And you see that as part of our healing process as we work through this. And you, you know, you can even add, I'm guessing you might have some mistrust of your own.
And I wanna hear about that too. And, you know, as you continue to do the work and as you practice building up just emotional safety in the way that you're interacting with each other now, you, you build up those tools and you start to see, hey, this is, this is a much more successful way of reaching each other.
And, you know, hopefully your husband continues to grow and become more emotionally engaged with himself. And then at some point, you know, we can have, you need to have some more in depth conversation about healing some of these wounds because, you know, this wasn't like some big dramatic attachment injury where someone had an affair or you know, some kind of financial [00:10:00] infidelity.
But this is a chronic feeling of emotional neglect, type of attachment injury that will need some healing conversations. And you know, your, your husband, if I
talk to him, I might hear that he has some. Chronic feelings too that he needs to talk about and heal. So anyway, it's just a matter of you. You just have to give it the time to build the work, build upon itself, and create more and more safety.
And the more safety, the more you can go deep. And then as that process unfolds, your body should start to trust along with the growth. So thank you again for your email, Anna. I really appreciate you tuning in. So now we're going to go to a quick note from Christie. Christie says, I've appreciated this season so much so far, and just many things are really making sense.
Can you address how alcoholism fits into this method? Also, I love the idea of a TV show. You should do a Mary Poppins sort of [00:11:00] figure and work with a couple each show or for a whole season. Alright, let me talk about the alcohol part first. You know, there are some contraindications to EFT therapy. One of those is, is active substance abuse.
And, you know, now we have to say, well, what is, where's the line between light substance abuse and active substance abuse? And where I would draw that line is if someone is using alcohol to the point that they cannot participate in, uh, relationship work because they're either intoxicated and not really themselves.
And, you know, you can't really have access to your emotions in a healthy way. If you're. If they're covered up with a substance. So you, you wouldn't be able to really work on the relationship if alcohol is blocking your ability to do that. If alcohol is so important that it is, it is the number one safety strategy.
[00:12:00] And we more so than, than working on the relationship because the alcohol is, is being used as a pain relief. Then we have a competing attachment where right now alcohol is, is what's most important. And, for good reasons. Most people don't go, oh, I'm gonna choose for alcohol to be more important than my partner.
But if there, if that is alcohol, is their coping mechanism, then that is the result. And so what do we do here? That person really needs to get the alcoholism stable to the point at least where they're sober enough of the time to have emotionally engaged, regulated conversations to start to heal.
And sometimes I will work with a couple where the alcoholism is being treated outside of the therapy and we're doing the relationship work inside of the therapy because here's the deal. Getting relationships to a healthier place
[00:13:00] reduces a lot of stress and creates connection, meaningful connection.
And that those two things actually help people get off of the alcohol. They start getting their needs met in new ways and stop experiencing so much stress that they're drinking to escape from. And there's actually a book out there called Beyond Addiction by Jeffrey Foote, and he kind of uses more of an attachment friendly model to address.
Substance abuse, so you might wanna check that out. I love that book. Um, and then as far as my TV show, well it's kind of a, unrealistic fantasy, but I, I think that would, I would really enjoy you know, watching like a couple have a camera on them all day. And then as they start to go into a negative cycle, then I just sort of pop in like super nanny for relationships and help them just restructure the interaction right then and there in, in real time and say, Hey, let's, you guys are going into a cycle.
Let's do this in a new way and see what we can [00:14:00] do different that might be more successful and effective than what you're trying to do right now to reach each other. Alright, well thank you Christie. Great question. And all right, so now we're going to hear a voice note from Tiffany who is experiencing a very common challenge when it comes to the negative cycle in her relationship.
Listener Segment: Hey julie. My partner and I of six years have been listening to your podcast together. We're reading and rereading your book, and we're truly trying but we're struggling to turn around our negative cycles. So, as an example, we do a weekly date night, and this particular Thursday went completely sideways.
We went to a sports bar and it was nice. It was quiet at first, but they didn't serve food, so I ordered pizza from next door to bring back to the bar. Eventually when the pizza arrived, he suggested that we take it home. I said, okay, that's fine, but before we leave, can we eat a slice or two? While it was still hot, [00:15:00] which that felt really important to him, and his response was, I can't say anything to you.
That sentence really stunned me and um, I guess I just felt like I was getting it wrong all night. And on our drive home I could feel my throat starting to tighten and I got quiet. And so in an effort to try to catch the negative cycle, I said, you know, I can feel myself shutting down. Can we try something new?
And so that, from there I shared how I felt the evening went for me and he said basically, you know, it's not your job to get it right. And this left me feeling really invalidated. And so I came back and I gently asked him, you know, what did you mean when you said, I can't say anything to you? And he didn't know.
And so we tried talking about it and I could see him kind of explaining stuff, explaining [00:16:00] his view, maybe similar to what Bethany is doing, and I could see my feelings getting dropped similar to maybe how Brian has felt this season. And I guess it was just really deflating to try to catch the negative cycle early, yet not really knowing how to turn it into a positive cycle.
So I'm curious, should he have been wearing the caretaker hat, but then also his comment of. Not being able to say anything to me. It just really hurt. And he couldn't really explain what he meant by that. When I pressed him, he would get frustrated and ultimately shut down the end. So Julie, I'm lost. If you could, uh, help us understand what are we doing wrong, what are we not seeing?
And um, really at the end of the day, we tried to catch the negative cycle, but it felt like we failed miserably. [00:17:00] Any help you could provide, Julie would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.
Julie: Okay, Tiffany.
Well first of all, thank you for the question and I just want you to know that as I listen to this, I mean, my heart just breaks for you and your husband because it's can feel just so discouraging to be doing your best to put the work into practice and just not be able to, you know, get to where you're hoping to be.
I encourage you to keep going, you know. You're playing with it. You, it sounds like you both have, your heart isn't trying. If I'm listening to your story, you know, the, the place where my brain goes, first of all, any trigger point is a way to get in and kind of understand on a deeper level what's going on.
You know, I would maybe go to that point where he says, I can't say anything to you. And it, he, you could lean into him right there, or he could learn how to lean into you later when you feel misunderstood. But let's say we just, we [00:18:00] just start there and, and you maybe try, okay, hold on. You know something, something's coming up for you and I wanna know more about that.
I wanna hear what you mean by that. You know something, I trust that you, you have a good reason to have that fear. Maybe it's not happening right now, but maybe in the past, in our relationship, you have felt, you know, like, like it
wasn't safe to say things. I, I don't know, you tell me. And maybe just try to kind of create a little safety around, Hey, look, I'm, yes, I've got my own stuff coming up around that, but I trust that you're trying to communicate something important to me.
Let me lean in and try to understand where you're coming from. Maybe it won't work, quote unquote, right in that moment. He might still deflect or put a wall up or not wanna talk or not know what's going on. But at least there's this new experience where you tried to lean in and that would probably.
Probably diffuse it right then and there, and then later, [00:19:00] you know, you can come in and say, Hey, can we talk about this again? Because, you know, I wanna lean in and understand you. I don't want you to have to rely on saying, I can never say anything because I wanna help each other in these places. But, you know, I also feel misunderstood and that doesn't work for me either.
And then as far as like, him not knowing what he's feeling, I mean, this is, this is a problem, right? It's really hard to do this vulnerability work if someone just doesn't know how to get there, because he's been his whole life more than likely. Shutting it down, shutting it off, disconnecting.
And this is the part where, you know, there's. There's a lot of value to him being able to access some self-help or go see a professional therapist to learn to more fully engage with himself. Because what happens is, is when we have painful emotions, you know, we basically have three options of what to do with them.
One, we can just shove them [00:20:00] down and let them turn into just kind of this festering anxiety and frustration all the time. And, you know, maybe have effects on someone's health. So that's not, that option has downsides. Or we can just kind of ex only express them in anger and frustration, which is what he did in this situation.
I can never say anything, right is not really healthy. Direct communication of feelings and asking for help. And let's talk through this so we can meet each other here. In. Instead, it's just kind of a protest and that doesn't work. And then the third option is to learn how to tap in and figure out what is actually going on inside of me.
Why am I needing to say, um, I can't say anything to you? What are the feelings around that? You know, I, I'm guessing that underneath all of that, you know, is, is gonna go to the same place. You know, I feel alone and like, you know, I, I'm not gonna be heard no matter what I do. [00:21:00] And, and I always have to
trust that these negative cycles that the two of you have had together have somehow sent that message to him, whether it's intentional or not, whether that's where your heart is or not.
And we need to make space for him to talk about the pain around that. But we can't. We can't talk about the pain if he doesn't know what it's, so this is an opportunity to, for him to really kind of do what I'm doing with both Bethany and Brian, which is trying to really get in there and understand more about what those feelings are trying to say, what they need to heal and what they need for help.
And that self-work really has to be done in order to be able to get there. And some people can get there just by first being aware of this work and, okay, now I'm aware there's something else there. And then maybe just. Time going by and a little more self-exploration. Sometimes people can get there, um, just with some self-work, you know, but sometimes we need an intervention.
Sometimes we need, um, a next level of help and that certainly is [00:22:00] gonna make it go a lot faster than trying to do it on your own. So then of course, you know, there's points at which you are gonna need help too. You know, it didn't feel good for you to feel like you're, you know, losing a game you didn't even know you were playing.
And in that situation, that's when he really needs to be willing to lean into you and let you put words to, Hey, this is where it leads me. You know, I end up feeling scared that I'm gonna let you down. And then, you know, underneath that I feel kind of alone and disconnected from you. And that's a painful place to be.
And maybe it's not my job to get it right for you, but it is my job to. Help us stay connected. And if that doesn't happen and we experience a feeling of disconnection, wouldn't it be nice if we could try to meet each other and you can tell me, Hey, this is what's happening that you know is, is.
L leaving me feeling kind of disconnected and you shared the same thing [00:23:00] with him. So anyway I know that that's a tall order for people who are really just new to this work and some people are more distressed than others. But I do think if you just keep your mindset and we're just gonna keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep trying to trudge through this and understand all this stuff on a deeper level, and gradually your brains will start sort of reframing the problem and build a little more safety.
I would like to think that maybe things are going a little bit better than they were in the past. Maybe in a two steps forward, one step back kind of way. And that is something. And then of course, you know, professional help is always, is always a good idea. Um, if you can't get there on your own. Alright, so as always, I can't say it enough how much I appreciate everyone who is sending in an email and voice note.
And I just love how, I love hearing how the show is resonating with you. Uh, alright, so let's dive [00:24:00] in to session 11 with Brian and Bethany. All right, well, how is, how are things?
Bethany: Not good.
Julie: Okay. I kind of had an idea that would be the case after such a long time. What's going on?
Bethany: Go
ahead and
you can talk.
You're mad at me, so.
Julie: Um, all right, well, what, what's going on?
Let me start with this, and I don't know how relevant this is now because it's been a bit since we talked about it, and I know some, clearly some stuff has happened, but we talked at the end of the last session about how, you know, you have all these kind of lingering attachment wounds that we haven't really addressed and we keep talking about these, fights that negative cycles that come up over less important topics.
And I don't think I explained [00:25:00] well enough why. You know, we can't really dive into that fully yet. And I wanted to just address that, if we talk about those attachment wounds in a cycle, in a negative cycle, it's just gonna make those wounds worse. And so we can't really have a full conversation, a healing conversation until we can talk about them outside of cycles.
So we can dive into the topic in here. It's just that once it starts to go into a negative cycle, and it gets to the point where, you know, we're in our defense mechanisms and protections and we're not really able to sit with each other's
perspective and validate and kind of be with the other person as they share, then I have to pull us out and figure out what's blocking that from happening.
So with that said, why don't you guys, you know, just kind of, you know, put, fill me in or comment on that. Whatever you need to do,
Bethany: go ahead. if you want.
Brian: Comment on what you just talked [00:26:00] about?.
Julie: Yeah. Whatever feels, if you have questions about that or anything to say about that, or, you know, it seems like something is in the air, we can just jump right into that if you'd like
Brian: to be truthfully honest with you, I just don't, I don't see this really progressing in a way I feel like in, in the approach of the negative cycles.
You know, I, I feel that like in the last few weeks, like I've been expressing my triggers, expressing, how a past wound has come up or something. And, uh, I try to be vulnerable. I try to, you know, get the, you know, get the negative feeling off of my chest and make her aware, and I, I just. I'm just constantly laying in it.
I don't see how we fix anything moving forward when we just continuously get in this [00:27:00] negative cycle and it's just like, it's just not working, and then the, the bigger issue becomes like, is this just insanity? 'Cause we're putting in the same ingredients every time and we end up at the same place and we just continuously go, in this spot.
And like, I, I feel like I'm mostly getting hurt and getting back up. Trying to have the courage or the strength to do, you know, what you've been telling us to do. Only to find myself right back in the same hurt space.
Julie: Sure. So you're not, you're saying, look, I'm putting in, from your perspective, I'm not really sure, you know, I can't see you outside of here, so I don't know how effective you're putting the work in, but from your perspective, you're, you're going, look, I'm trying, you know, what you're [00:28:00] telling us to do and it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere and I'm still hurting.
And maybe it even hurts worse thinking that you're doing what you're supposed to do and it's still not working. That's pretty demoralizing.
Brian: Yeah. It's just, it's defeating.
Julie: Yeah. And so you're still really suffering and you're, you're wanting, you know, you're questioning is this, is this insanity to keep going with the process that is just kind of either not working or making things worse?
Brian: Yeah, for the most part. .
Julie: Alright. Well that makes sense to me. You know, we've got, part of the plan, our plan is that we've got I think about 10 sessions left, would you, do you have it in you to go forward with the next 10 sessions or are you saying, look, I don't, I don't really, I mean, what we could do is kind of, at least if nothing else, spend the next 10 sessions figuring out what is going wrong.
You, you know, you're telling me, look, I'm putting all the work in my job would be, okay, let's, first of all, figure out what [00:29:00] does that work look like? Is it actually the work or is it just kind of, you know, a little bit into this process, what you perceive the work to be? And if it is the most perfect work possible, you know, what's kind of blocking Bethany from taking it in and what's going on on, on her side of the equation.
But I also need to respect the fact that, you know, nobody needs to, there are, there is a point at which people don't wanna be vulnerable anymore. It's too painful. I mean, I can meet you wherever you would like for me to meet you.
Brian: If I had to be truthfully and honest with you I'm not gonna say that the work is absolutely perfect.
'Cause we're, we're flawed individuals to begin with. I feel like a sense of duty to continue coming here to honor my commitment to you, to this podcast, to the, your work. More than I feel a [00:30:00] duty to repair it with Bethany at this point. And I do feel like, I think, you know, a couple weeks ago I expressed that like it is helping me acknowledge in different relationships, like with my daughter or employees or you know, friends and feel it's also like something that's.
Sort of known within me it's just like a, like a second nature or a like another sense that like, I know that maybe I, if I act out a certain way, it's probably not good. And the real trigger was, like when I break it down in my head, being vulnerable with myself, like I know exactly why this stuff is happening, but I just I'm, I'm in it, I'm in it for, you know, to finish out the sessions.
However that looks like, um, if we're diving into triggers to just sort of find like peace in it or if it [00:31:00] ends up working out if we just go on this, this
journey that, like how we have the past 10 sessions I'm just, I'm willing to, to put forth the effort and show up and, and work.
Julie: All right.
So. Let me, you can correct me if I'm wrong, lemme see if I'm getting it. You are noticing that this has been helpful kind of on a personal level and other relationships and that's good. And you're willing to kind of keep going forward with that. You, the commitment is important to you, which is I appreciate that but you're not really feeling motivated to help to use this work to help the relationship.
You're kind of d you're checked out at this point, it sounds like. Okay. So Julie here, and this is a critical moment. When Brian says that he's checked out of repairing the relationship, it's easy to hear him say this and it's easy to go to, well, he's just being colder uncaring. But [00:32:00] what we're hearing is the voice of his hopelessness.
You know, he's essentially saying, I've tried to be vulnerable. I've put myself out there and I just keep getting hurt and it's not working. And you know, it's debatable how vulnerable he's been outside of here. Um, I think probably less so than he, you know, realizes because he is still learning. But for someone with an anxious attachment style, the pain of just.
Repeatedly failing to connect. It's just agonizing. And this checking out that he's doing, it's a survival strategy. And his nervous system is telling him it's safer to detach and feel nothing than it is to just keep trying and being in this much pain. And then of course, you know, we also have to consider the other truth here that, you know, we need to recognize that Brian has a much bigger role in his hopelessness than he's fully able to see yet.
You know, there's still a disconnect for [00:33:00] him between being a person who communicates in ways like get your stuff and get out, and his relationship problems, he's still kind of missing. That link is just a little blurry for him still, you know, he just wants to focus on whatever it was she did and just sort of
gloss over, get your stuff, and get out as an ongoing pattern that's getting in his way.
His mindset is still in this place, which is very common for struggling couples of, I only have to act like this because they are so bad, which isn't fully taking ownership of one's part. So for EFT therapy to be successful, we have to get to the place where each partner can lean away from a focus on what they're doing
wrong and lean more heavily into why am I doing what I am doing and what's the impact of my behavior on myself and my partner and the relationship, and what can I do to shift?
And yeah, we do need to talk about what they need to [00:34:00] do to shift, but most people aren't spending enough time in, what do I need to do? What's going on with me? And this is called moving from other focus to self focus. You can see here that just in this conversation between the two of them, Brian's narrative is more heavily leaned into the other focus, what she does.
And Bethany's narrative leans into, no matter what I do, I can't get it right. And both of these have elements of blame. But for Brian, it's just more overtly about what she's doing wrong. And for Bethany, it's more overtly about how hard I try
and it's not enough, which is something that really shows that one of those distinctions between anxious and avoidant attachment.
So for you, just take a moment to think about this for you. You know, when you're in pain in your relationship, how do you make sense of it? Does your brain quickly go to my suffering is because of them and they just do what they do because they're just bad or uncaring? Or can you balance that out with, you [00:35:00] know, and I also have a role in what they're doing that's causing my suffering.
If so, are you open to zooming out and seeing that maybe your relationship problems aren't actually about one of you being good or bad, but about the way that both of you are contributing to these communication cycles that are eroding safety and making it impossible to work anything through?
Brian: I think over the past couple weeks I've just sort of checked out like, okay, I, I felt like I've, there's probably been four negative cycles that we've been in, and, uh, there's just some things that I noticed that, like, I felt like I,
whether it was text message or verbally saying things like you know, where I was at, it's not being validated, it's not being recognized, and it just keep marching on and then there's a quiet period.
And then there's a somewhat of a reconnection period, and I think the reconnection [00:36:00] period is like me being vulnerable, thinking that this will change this time, and then very shortly after I'm validated that it's not going to change.
Julie: Okay.
Bethany: It doesn't, it's not easy not being around all the time. So when we're like bouncing in and out, you know, I feel like sometimes there's not the opportunity to try to repair because it's, it's like not being here present in this house, which is still technically my house.
Mm-hmm. It's like a punishment, right? Like when we're in a negative cycle. No, I don't wanna see you. No, don't come here. No, we're like strictly co parents. There's no co-mingling and that's like, that's hard. Yeah. And like the last negative cycle, like we had a really, really good night. We don't even have to get into those details, but like at the end of the night we were [00:37:00] talking and it went from I love you.
And then like, things shifted and then within 10 minutes it was like, you know, we went into a, a, a negative cycle. Nobody was yelling or anything like that. And it was, you can get, because I the plan was to stay Saturday night and be here today, but this morning or Saturday night and Sunday night.
And then I was like, get your shit. You can get the fuck out in the morning. Brian: I didn't say that.
Bethany: Yes you did. And you put my bags in the hallway and I slept with you can get your shit in the morning and get the fuck out.
Brian: I don't. Think I said it that harshly, but I said, you can get your things and plan on packing up to go tomorrow.
Bethany: You said it that harshly.
Julie: Okay. So the message was go and however it was delivered and that was confusing for you. The real pertinent piece of this is that it was confusing for you because you had gone from this great place to Okay. However it's delivered. I need for you to go.
Bethany: I mean, I [00:38:00] knew, I knew that we were in this negative cycle, right?
And I knew how it got there.
Julie: But alright, before we go, before we go too far, 'cause I do wanna hear what you have to say. Bethany, I need to just to readdress this thing. The only way this therapy works is if you're both willing to be vulnerable, right? If we're
really trying to help the relationship if Brian, you're saying to me, look, I'm not really willing to be vulnerable anymore because this is hurting me, it's not getting me anywhere, then that all the other good reasons for staying in the work become irrelevant at that point because the agenda is no longer to help the relationship. The agenda is now all these other good reasons, right?
But what happens is, is if you're not willing to be vulnerable, then I can't ask Bethany to be vulnerable because that, that's not gonna be fair to, to either of you if only one partner is willing to be vulnerable. So I just need to check in. Are you still willing to try outside of here?[00:39:00]
And if you're not, I totally respect that and understand that. I just need to check that out.
Brian: Try As in what? Like hang out with her.
Julie: Try as in,
instead of saying you need to pack your stuff and take it out, you talk about what's really happening with you and you try to, and you guys aren't really, you know, you don't have the skills yet to do that, which is why your brains and bodies keep going back into the negative cycle.
'cause you don't have the skills yet.
Brian: Yeah,
Julie: but I need a commitment to try outside of here. As much as I need a commitment to show up here, even if you fail, at least you're trying and we can say, Hey, even if you fail, we can figure out what went wrong and kind of tweak that so we can do something different next time.
Brian: I dunno, it's a hard decision and it's, it's just signing up for more pain and punishment, I feel like.
Julie: All right.
So can, can we explore then, instead of, you know, just leaving it at that, I [00:40:00] would like to understand what is so hard about that decision. That's what I'm interested in to help you kind of understand yourself better, to help Bethany understand better that you're not just kind of rejecting her or icing her
out, that you know this is about some other stuff going on and it's not being communicated effectively when it comes up outside of here.
And for no fault of either of you, you just haven't quite, you again, you don't quite have the skills and your fear and mistrust is still very high. Okay. And so, but I also wanna wanna check in Bethany, kind of give you some space before, you know, I understand more about him to share with me what's been going on with you for the last couple weeks.
Bethany: Yeah, it's just hard not being here. It's hard not being here and it's hard feeling like I'm, I'm punished when, you know, we, we get into a negative cycle and. I'm also trying to be vulnerable and he doesn't feel that I am. And I'm also trying to, [00:41:00] to support him and, and use some of the tools. And then when I try, I feel like I'm met with like silence or it's not heard.
And I recognize that we don't have all the skills or the tools yet to do it. The triggers for him are so high. And that's hard for me because I just don't know what I'm gonna say that's gonna trigger him to, to spiral. Like there's things that he says to me, right, that cause me to spiral a little bit, but I never like completely wall him off.
Okay. Or go radio silent. And so it's hard to know. I feel like. He wants me to respond in a certain way that meets this expectation that he has and I can't, and I don't do that. So then I'm like, I'm like punished for [00:42:00] it. And there's things that, and I don't know if you want me to dive into what, like what happened the other night or not, but that's where I'm sitting.
And it, that, that's the part I think that is so hard is to not be here, not have the opportunity to repair, to not always know what he's thinking or, or feeling like he is good at sharing some things, but sometimes they don't come until a couple days later. And then I'm like blindsided by, he was like holding onto something that was bothering him and he didn't share me, share it with me for a few days.
And that, that's hard too.
Julie: You're really struggling because these cycles keep happening. You don't really feel a whole lot of control over them happening or not happening. You get blindsided and then you don't have the opportunity to repair. Yeah. Yeah. And then on top of that, there's this feeling like I'm being punished because I don't live here.
Or I, tell me more about that. [00:43:00]
Bethany: Yeah. So, you know, when we're in a negative cycle, it's like, you know, no. So we were in a negative cycle, like right after Christmas and, I still had the whole week off and. I said, you know, do, do you wanna hang out? Like I'm still not working. You don't have your older daughter.
I can send our baby to daycare. Like we can do things or we can hang out the three of us in the evenings, whatever. And he was like, Nope, I'm starting this big job. I'm starting this big job. I'm gonna be tired when I come home. I'm just gonna wanna rest. It's gonna be hard. And so the intent was that I wasn't gonna see him all week, but I recognize, or I know that that was part of, because we were in a negative cycle.
He was pushing me away. And as it turns out, like you didn't even start that job for whatever reason. So that didn't take place. Whether that was coincidence or, or circumstance or whatever, that's fine. But then it's like we were able to repair somewhat and then hang out a little bit. And then we went into another negative cycle.
And then it was like, you were supposed to stay for two nights, [00:44:00] but now you're only staying for one and you have to leave in the morning. And then it's like, I don't, I don't hear from him all day. Right. And then I walk in here, he comes in today and, and I was like, how was your morning? Fine. Does it feel, you know, and I, I forget what else I said, and he was like, I don't have anything to say to you.
And like, that's hard. That's really, really hard. And the other night I was trying to repair what I was trying to repair. Like I went to lay down with the baby, came back. So here's some, so just I can anger and I'm, then I met with anger, right? And then he says like, really mean things. Why are you laughing?
Brian: Because I didn't talk to you.
Julie: See, that's what this, this is the si
this is the cycle, right?
Bethany: This is the
cycle.
Julie: Here's what I can do, I can help you understand. This is all I've got, you know, for the next several minutes of the session is to help you understand what
happens. That you go down the road, you just went on where we're laughing and you know, why are you doing that?
That instead of having a conversation about [00:45:00] that trigger, whatever happened, something came up for you, Brian, when she said something. And in a way that can. Help you guys. Let me just say this. Maybe not help you guys if there's too much stuff built up from the past that can help you get there, but to help a theoretical couple meet each other instead of going in, diving into the triggers and then, you know, all this miscommunication flow going back and forth.
I don't know if you guys can do it, but what I can help you do is understand why you can't do it. Because if you go into the next relationship with these same behaviors, when you get triggered, you are, you're gonna build up the same wounds over time. So maybe we can just spend the rest of our time trying to understand, Hey, this happened in this moment.
I, I trust that both of you could have done some different things in the moment to help it go in a different direction. And we can understand [00:46:00] why that didn't happen in the service of. Doing something different in the future, either with the two of you or in a, in a future relationship.
Bethany: I, I really, really want this to work.
I do. And I'm not saying that I'm quitting. Like, I don't wanna quit at all. And when we are at this place I just feel like if we didn't have you or the commitment to this, like we would be done. Because I, I think he just reaches a threshold and he just wants to quit. And I recognize that this has been going on for such a long time and it's, it's been a long time of hurt and stress and like, marriage, purgatory and, all right, well, you're both, it can be exhausting.
It can be [00:47:00] exhausting.
Julie: It's, I mean, it's brutal. It's absolutely no way around it. Brutal for both of you.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And you know, you're, you're still here and that says something, I do think it's a good idea to, to give it until the end of our journey, just to say, I mean, if nothing else, to walk away and say, Hey, we, we did what we could. And
Bethany: I feel like that's what
he's gonna do no matter what.
That's what I'm sitting with.
Julie: Well, so first of all, I, I need to figure out who I'm gonna work with. You know, I have to go back and forth one at a time, and I need, the only way this works, the only way relationships work is when there's some big kind of problem that we're taking turns, sharing our perspective, and being, one person being in the, the needy role and the other person being [00:48:00] in the supportive role.
And you know, because of the level of pain that both of you are in, it's, it's, uh, it's difficult for me to know who gets to be supported first. I want it to feel fair and safe for both of you. So, my goal is to try to get to both of you right now, but, and it, it doesn't, we, we can address like either one of these cycles that happened outside of here, or we can address whatever's happening right now.
I, I need right now, more than anything, to train you guys to be supportive of each other's hurt and or figure out why. The very good reason that you just can't do it because there's, there's been too much that's happened in the past. Trust is so low.
Bethany: I don't care who you start with. I feel like I'm always the one hurting him versus the other way around. Or maybe I just have more [00:49:00] tolerance. I don't know. Or less triggers. I have no idea.
Julie: Alright, so Julie here, this is a classic avoidant attachment thing to say be, which is, I'm always the one upsetting him.
Because those with avoidant attachments spend so much time playing defense. And the idea with that is I would be fine if they would just stop getting upset and be okay. And it's because of the way the anxious avoidant relationship is in balance. The anxious partner is fighting to resolve the problems and the avoidant partner is fighting to maintain some level of stability.
Both are ways of fighting to protect the relationship and they don't work. And balance is when both partners bring things up equally when there are problems. But they both also on top of, you know, in addition to that, the second piece is they also know how to communicate in a way. When problems are brought up equally by both of [00:50:00] them, that maintains stability.
So they're working as a team instead of each of them just rigidly fighting for parts of the whole. This is integrated. We're both fighting equally for all the parts of the relationship. And so nobody's having to be so exhausted. You know, there's a phrase that I like the anxious partner is asking, but not getting, the avoidant partner is not asking and not getting, and you know, just as a preview to next week's session, I am going to be moving Bethany from her defense position and not to an offense position because that's the other extreme, but to this sweet spot in the middle, which is called healthy assertion of self.
So that's to come, but for now, let's go back in.
Bethany: But if you want her to hear, if you wanna
hear things from me,
Brian: I mean, I just I feel like my threshold has just been, I. It's just way we're way past it. It's, I just, I, I just sort of [00:51:00] can't deal with it anymore. It, and it goes back to the insanity part.
You know, I hear Bethany and, and the fear and the sorrow attached to, you know, the, the possibility of it ending. And, we're coming up, this is, this past couple weeks sort of hit home to me that like, I've basically wasted another year of my entire life. Christmas has come, the new year has come, and I am not one single foot past or like in, in any type of growth whatsoever.
I'm in, I'm in the same spot. My marriage is un is uncertain. My custody schedule is uncertain, my life is uncertain and it just sort of flashed before me. And. The session that we had before Christmas, uh, which was canceled. We were sort of sitting here and then took the time afterwards to [00:52:00] maybe try, even though we don't have the tools to try to hear each other out about our situations and what had happened in the past negative cycle, like the weekend before Christmas.
And something sort of triggered me in the, in the conversation. And I remember talking about, or telling you about that she had called the police on me. And since that night I've always had a hunch of how things really played out. And she was truthful and honest with me. I couldn't, couldn't really quite believe it, but she had admitted to me that the calling the police.
Was all premeditated and she had had conversations with this friend, policeman prior to, so that when the stars would align, [00:53:00] then he would be the 9 1 1 call, not the actual 9 1 1.
Bethany: That
part was not premeditated.
Brian: Okay. Okay. That's how I heard it and that that doesn't make me feel safe in, in any relationship. If someone is willing to just completely maliciously take me out in some form or fashion, like I don't see how you come back from that really. And then
Julie: so, and I agree. I agree with that. If you really, really, truly do believe that she is maliciously out to get you, that's unworkable.
It's a, a complete, that's sort of how I, it can't work. But, so I need to, I guess with you, what I would need to understand this, I think this could be helpful for you is to understand how much reality there is to that. Like, is there, is there a part of you that maybe there's another way to explain it, they can see there's maybe another way [00:54:00] to explain it, that maybe she isn't just out to get me, maybe she just gets hurt too, and that's her way of protecting herself.
Kind of like you get hurt and that's your way of, you have your own little strategies for, you know, trying to protect yourself. Yeah. I think, 'cause I do, I do wonder if there might be a part of you that co comes to the relationship with a tendency to think when something goes wrong, someone's out to get you.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I, I am sort of like a lone wolf type of personality, like mm-hmm. Because I don't have a, a big circle, so I have to be, the eyes behind in the back of my head in some ways. I, I'm try, I try to be cognizant of all my surroundings whether, if I'm in a different country or a new situation, you know, I, I just yeah.
Julie: So is the
de is the default, like to keep you safe and there's a lot of strength to this because [00:55:00] it, some people need to need more of this, right? But I, is there is that the default? Like you kind of go in assuming that someone wants to hurt you? Okay.
Brian: No.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: I think when I was, when Bethany and I first started dating, I was completely open and full of love and ready to give love and ready to receive it. And it wasn't until she started I, I don't know if it was malicious, but she started doing things that were hurting my feelings. And then I was just expected to get over them, like as if they were nothing.
And they have,
Julie: okay, so it, and then so what happened is, is this kept happening, kept happening, and then so your brain starts making sense [00:56:00] of it as well. She's just trying to hurt me. I'm being hurt. I'm, I'm trying so hard to communicate what's hurting and it's still happening. And so the way that you made sense of it was.
She's, she just wants to hurt me. This is malicious. And maybe that's not how, how all of you made sense of it, but enough of you made sense of it in that way.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, it just, it just keeps happening so frequently anymore that it's, it's it's almost like it's intentional.
Julie: And so then let's talk about then how that impacts you because it is very different in, in a negative cycle. If you're getting the message that, Hey, I'm hurting and I'm, I'm trying to protect myself and I'm trying to, you know, stay safe with you, it is gonna be easier to be vulnerable than if you're getting the message.
I actually just wanna hurt you. I have no respect for you. I have no care for your [00:57:00] feelings. I mean, that is going to massively impact. How willing and able your body is to be vulnerable. Nobody's gonna be vulnerable when they think the other person genuinely wants to harm them.
Brian: I don't, I just don't think that she really cares about me, my daughter, my dog.
It's just she's in her own survival mode of just her and our daughter. And she just wants to protect her and our daughter and how whatever else happens.
Julie: So when was the la when was the last time that you, this came up that you got this message that, here we go again. She does not care about us at all.
She cares about herself and she cares about our daughter. Did this happen in this cycle that you were ta
Brian: it ha it happened on Christmas Day, it happened on New Year's Eve.
Julie: Can you [00:58:00] tell me what, what was said or done that that took you there?
Brian: Yeah, like Christmas Eve, I had both girls and her family had, has really no traditions. Uh, her friends didn't have anything going on and she was just, by herself on Christmas Eve. And, and I, I went to, took the girls to a party and came home, you know, read, read stories, filled the Christmas tree up and I was gonna we had talked throughout the night of just like, how painful, like you, you have like these.
Grandiose ideas of Christmas and family and the, the whole setting. And then when you actually get to the, the day, it just feels really empty because I don't really have any family anymore. And [00:59:00] we were very vulnerable with each other that night. And I, I expressed a lot of my feelings, like through the years and I really wanted to change the Chris Christmas tradition moving forward, but I just don't have the numbers to do so.
And then I felt sorry for her and I, I felt empathetic and I, I wanted to make sure that she didn't feel that type of hurt for the holidays that was so familiar to me. And I felt like,
Julie: say that, say that last part again. Um,
Brian: I didn't want her like, knowing that she was gonna be alone. For Christmas, I didn't want her to feel the hurt that was so familiar to me and other holidays.
So I extended myself or was planning to extend myself to have her come over to see like, the little kid early, [01:00:00] early morning magic of Christmas, like on our daughter's face and just like, sort of feel like it was like a family type of setting. Again, and I just felt like maybe it was in a text message, so it came off differently.
But I just felt like it, she came off as tough. Like, I can, I can deal with it. I'm, I can handle it. So I didn't invite her, but I, I ended up
Julie: Is that the first place where this kind of, this got triggered where
Brian: No, I, I, I felt fine. I felt fine going into Christmas Eve. Got it. And Christmas day. And I knew that the shoe was gonna be on the other foot.
Soon enough because both girls were gonna leave at noon. And then I knew that like she would've been okay because now she's gonna take our daughter to, her family stuff. And then I just sort of felt like forgotten. You know what I mean? Where it's just like, now I have what I really wanted, so I'll just leave you on the shelf.
Julie: And what did she do that [01:01:00] left you? Feeling forgotten?
Brian: You know, she didn't come back down for Christmas and, you know, I, I watched, the football games and stuff like that and then I just sort of came home and watched more games and sat in a massage chair and relaxed, fell asleep a couple times.
Julie: Wait, I kind of missed a piece here. Where were you when you were watching before you came home?
Brian: Uh, I was at a friend's house.
Julie: You
were at a friend's house? Okay. So she didn't come to the friend's house.
Brian: I wasn't expecting her to, I was expecting her to, open presents and, have a dinner or something like that.
But I, I thought like once that was over, then she would come back over with our daughter.
Julie: Okay. And she didn't come? She didn't come back?
Brian: No. I mean, it just seemed like she just made some excuses. Like her daughter was going to be in bed [01:02:00] early and, I don't know, just sort of him around.
Alright.
Julie: So you had, so if I'm just trying to piece all this together, you had already told her at some point before this, like, this is so important to me. I wanna have, you know, these special family involved Christmases and how empty that felt for you to not, and then, so the very next day or whatever, she, she could have helped you with that.
She could have shown up, but she didn't show up.
Brian: Yeah, I felt like it was, it was clearly communicated between the two of us. Like, and I, I would've expected her to, to really let that sink in. That like, not only did you not like the feeling, but I've explained to you that I don't like the feeling. And then when the time came, it just she just didn't show up.
All right. You know?
Julie: And so then the way that you make sense of her not showing up is that she just doesn't care.[01:03:00]
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: I question like the motivation going into these sessions is that she just doesn't want to give up time with her daughter. And that's sort of the sole purpose of working on us.
Julie: And so she has all these kind of ulterior motives. You know, she might actually be out to harm you and she doesn't care.
That's really what you're sitting with here all the time. All the time this gets triggered.
Brian: I don't know if it's all the time, but it's, it's recently, it seems
Julie: like every negative cycle. This is where you go, right? When things get bad, this is, your brain goes to one, she doesn't care. Two, she wants to hurt me, or she has these ulterior motives.
She's not really in this for me. You know, either way, we, we [01:04:00] circle back too. She wants to hurt me here.
No wonder you're having a hard time feeling close. I'm not here to judge the narrative, but I am here to say, look, if that's the narrative, how could you be close to someone? No, nobody could be close to anyone if they deep down inside of them, believe that that person wants to harm them.
Brian: Yeah, I could see that. Okay.
Julie: And so the cycle reframe is that it's not actually that she doesn't care or wants to harm you, it's that she's somehow struggling with something and she's trying to stay safe and, you know, there's more to it than that.
Brian: I would, I was hoping to have that kind of answer by now.
Julie: And so if you just think of, you know, some of the work we've done and, and if you, if you don't, that's okay. I'm just assessing here and I [01:05:00] can kind of go over to her and try to understand more about where she was coming from. But I wanna know if you know, just based on the 10 sessions and what we
have learned, do you have any ideas of maybe an al alternate explanation of why she might have not come after you had this conversation with her?
I wanna know if your brain is able to you know, maybe just come up with a different possibility, even if it's at the end of the day, not accurate. Are you able to kind of be flexible in that way? Like, Hey, maybe something different was happening here. Maybe it's not the worst case. Most dangerous explanation.
Brian: No. I mean, she ex she explained that, you know, and I just sort of stopped responding and, you know, she just wasn't. [01:06:00]
Julie: So she explained it, but you're better, you're not trusting it, you're, you're not ready to trust that other explanation.
Brian: No, I, I am willing to trust it. It's like I, I just feel like for anything, like everybody has a choice to show up and do something, and if you want it, you'll be there.
You know what I mean? So if the whole narrative, the entire time is you want to be back in this home, you wanna be back together in a marriage and in a family, then you'll do whatever it takes to, to get there. And that's not the message that I got.
Julie: So what you, what you trust again, and maybe not all of you, but in these negative cycles, what you trust is that she's not really in it.
She doesn't really care about me.
Brian: I think that some of the messages that I get are that, yes.
Julie: Okay. So Julie here, so here's another version of that other focus, which is, you know, I'm trying to [01:07:00] get Brian to own his mistrust, but he
keeps wanting to just shift it to her. I mistrust because those are the messages she sends, which is a meaning that misses some big important pieces of this puzzle.
It puts it all on her. It misses his role in these messages that are leaving him to mistrust. It misses the self-work around his already existing tendency to mistrust even in relationships outside of Bethany. And so if we have these three pieces to the problem, one, the messages that Bethany does send that would lead to mistrust, whether, you know that's accurate or not, she has a role in that too.
Two. His own predispositions based on past relationship experiences and trauma that set him up to so quickly go to mistrust. And then three, his own poor negative cycle behaviors that [01:08:00] contribute to Bethany's feelings that manifest as messages that leave him mistrusting. So he only wants to work on a third of that.
He only wants to work on the part that's on Bethany. That's why that small phrasing was so important. It really shows where his headspace is. And I'm just going to keep circling the wagons here to nudge him in to owning his mistrust. And then I'm going to see if I can take them just a baby step further, which is, is your brain at all open to the idea that maybe there's another two thirds of the problem here to look at that you, you know, your, your resistance talking about here?
Alright, so let's go back in, right? So when these things happen. When these things happen, when you, when you feel let down, basically when you feel let down, your brain just goes, your body and brain. They just trust that it goes right to, she just doesn't care,
Brian: I guess. Yes.
Julie: Well, you tell me. That's what I'm hearing. I [01:09:00] don't know that you would get so triggered if that wasn't the case. Right. I guess maybe in other times when you're not going into cycles that you can kind of see it in a different way. But if we're just talking about these cycled moments, it sounds like that's the place you keep going back to.
It keeps going back to she doesn't care and to be honest with you, there have been a lot of messages because that's what negative cycles do. They send wonky messages.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, I think that's accurate.
Julie: Okay. And, and maybe let's just, you know, put, put some words to that. Um, to get it, to get it out, which is, hey, you know, there, there is truth to the fact that in, in these triggered moments, my brain in pretty quickly goes to you just don't care.
Brian: Do you want me to say it out loud?
Julie: Yeah. [01:10:00]
Brian: When we get into these moments, I, I feel like your actions and words just sort of exemplify that you just don't care.
Julie: So notice how you wanna, notice how you wanna shift it over to what she's doing. And I'm trying to get you to just kind of stay with your own experience.
Brian: Oh, I see.
So I jump the gun and say. That just, she just doesn't care. And that's my, my go to thought in these situations.
Julie: And here's the deal. I don't really believe this is true, but it might be true.
My job is just to help clarify what is true and what isn't true. And what is true for you is [01:11:00] however it happens, that's where your brain goes. And of course it's not, it's not safe for you if that's where your brain goes. What would be so bad about her? Not really caring about you? Okay, Julie here. So now that I have him taking some ownership of this kind of reactive meaning that he's making, that probably isn't completely accurate.
You know, we're gonna learn now the next piece, which is what is so safe for Brian about coming up with the scariest explanation possible to make sense of all this, that Bethany just doesn't care or wants to hurt him. Now, if this is the truth, that he's reading it right, that Bethany just really doesn't care, or doesn't indeed just wanna hurt him, then it is safe for him to see this and get out.
There's wisdom in that. But what if it's not true? So listener reflection here. Think of your own scary explanations. Do you [01:12:00] have a tendency to make sense of your relationship problems in the scariest way possible? Like maybe your partner just doesn't care, or even maybe they just wanna hurt me. And when you don't have any other way to make sense of it as maybe a pattern we're stuck in, it just feels really easy to go there.
Alright, well let's go back in for now. Why is that painful? Why is that so painful that you react?
Brian: I guess you, you sort of get made like a fool. Because if I feel like I'm giving my 100% and whatever that looks like to not have reciprocity, you just feel slighted.
Julie: And then what's it like for you to feel slighted and like a fool? What's so bad about that?[01:13:00]
Brian: I guess you feel like taken advantage of or you're you're not worthy? I don't know. Maybe even in some, maybe some instances like unlovable or something like that I don't,
Julie: okay, so the, all of this, that, that sounds like a pretty painful place, right? When you get, so if we're just organizing this, you get messages that whatever she's doing or saying she doesn't really care about you, and there's layers of, of heard around that.
But one of the layers is, I, I feel like a fool. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. And then that takes you to where alone. Um, what's so bad about that? If we really kind of get to more of those deeper emotions,
humiliated, um.
Brian: Yeah. It's humiliated, you know, it's, it's past traumas too. It's, you know, it's, it's all the above, you know.
Julie: So when,
you know, when in your life did you feel humiliated [01:14:00] and like a fool and slighted?
Brian: Oh, I don't know. How much time do we have?
Julie: One example, we don't have to dive too far deep into it.
I'm just trying to understand when you did experience this in, in the past, what it was like for you to sit in that it doesn't just end with, they see me as a fool, or I'm being seen as a fool, or I'm being slighted. It, it ends with what that was like
for you in that moment, what the pain was. Nobody is gonna thrive in a moment when they feel like a fool or taken advantage of.
Brian: Probably, probably the, you know, the issues that with my mom, you know, like the, the demise of that relationship. You know, I, I felt like she intentionally and purposely, you know, just tried to hurt me,
Julie: and whoever protected you from that.[01:15:00]
Brian: Um, my brother, my grandmother that wasn't the first time that my mother did that to a family member. So I think my grandmother aided and, and protected me in that because sh she had done it to her and my mother did it to my grandmother. So, you know, she knew what it felt like and she could understand it.
Julie: What did it feel like? What does it feel like for a little boy to feel that their mother is intentionally wanting to hurt them? I mean, it doesn't get a, a lot worse than that for a child.
Brian: It wasn't when I was a child. It was actually like right before we got married. Okay. So Bethany, you know, understands like all the feelings and all that behind that.
She was, she was there, which is just sort of like the [01:16:00] text messages sent on Christmas Eve. It's just like you were there, we talked about it. How do you not understand this and why do you, why did you do that?
Julie: Okay. So whatever these feelings are around getting dropped, getting betrayed, getting feeling like, she's, you're intentionally being hurt by someone you rely on for comfort and care, whatever these feelings are.
That's what gets tapped into when every time you get the message from her that she doesn't care about you they, they stem from relationships in the past. They stem from relationships with Bethany,
Brian: all the above.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
And then that's a painful place. And so now I wanna know, you know, and the, and then the way, again, the, the way you make sense of this pain is [01:17:00] they really do want to hurt me at the worst and the very least, they don't care. At
the very worst, they're actually actively trying to hurt me. Right. And then how do you stay safe from that?
What is your reaction
there? What do you do?
Brian: I guess just isolate myself and
Julie: is that when you, you strike, strike out and say, or I, I should say, lash out and say something mean or push her away, or get your stuff and go
Brian: I mean, I've definitely said mean things to people.
Julie: What, say that again.
Brian: I said, I've definitely said mean things to people when I've, you know, felt those emotions.
Mm-hmm. Um,
Julie: I, I wanna know what you're, what you did in this cycle you know, when this is happening. So you're saying whenever you find out she's not coming in this moment, you didn't really lash out in this moment. You just, what kind of [01:18:00] stewed on it and felt, sat in the pain?
Brian: Yeah, I would say.
Okay.
Julie: All right. And so I, I think probably that's when you go into, you know, your, your thoughts just really. Start taking on momentum around the belief that, look this, here we go again, this is just more proof that she doesn't love me, she doesn't care about me, and I've just gotta get out of this.
Brian: Yeah. Okay.
Julie: And that's your safe
place.
That's what keeps you safe from feeling as if, in believing that she really does wanna hurt you and how painful that is.
Brian: Yeah. And then it, it just compounds, you know, in this, you know, this two week process, it's just been that, that thought has been validated probably four times over [01:19:00] at this point.
Julie: And this, and it, it does, you do believe that, you know, you have shared some of this with her, right? That you've shared with her how painful it is for you to not feel cared about.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. But have you shared with her about how in that pain, one of the ways that your body tries to stay safe is by going to the narrative that she just actually does wanna hurt me. That's your way of protecting how painful it feels,
because I think that what happens for her is that, you know, when she's getting these messages from you, that's the way that you view her. I don't know if she knows a whole lot about why you go there. I don't know that she really sees that as a way that you're trying to keep your head above water and [01:20:00] stay safe.
It's like that narrative has an easy solution. There's a real easy solution to this person actually wants to hurt me and doesn't care about me. What is that very easy solution
Brian: telling me, proving to me that it, that's not the case, you know? Julie: No.
The solution is, is to get out for you. If that is the absolute truth, that is the truth, that is the case, that she truly does not care about me.
The solution is very simple.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. It's Right,
Julie: The problem is, is that we still haven't figured out how accurate that explanation is.
Brian: You have me confused.
Julie: Okay. I'm sorry. Lemme tell. See if I can be a little bit more clear here. When you get triggered
The narrative is clear in your brain.
She doesn't care about me and the reason that your brain goes there. [01:21:00] Because if that's true,
then what, what are you gonna do If that's true?
Brian: I guess try something different. Move on. Not, I guess quit putting myself in that vulnerable spot to be hurt again, you know, hurt. And that's sorta,
Julie: it gives you, it, it gives you kind of like, it gives you permission to, to stop it. It gives you permission to make the pain go away.
Brian: Yes.
Julie: And, and again, I'm, I'm, you know, I don't, I don't think that, I don't know how much she's, how much of this she actually sees.
I think she gets different messages around this narrative. That she is bad and doesn't care about you, and just doesn't love you and just wants to hurt you. I don't think that message lands well on [01:22:00] her. But I also think that your body has a good reason for trusting that narrative, and one of those reasons is that it gives you permission to get out and get out of the pain.
Brian: Yeah. It's
Julie: your way of staying safe. And so I want you to share that with her, that this is a, you know, a safety strategy for me is to, is it's not conscious. I don't believe that you're deliberately doing this right. Which is making her the uncaring, bad, bad guy here. It's not my job to. Tell you that's not true.
I can help you explore some other alternative options, but it is my job to help me, to help us all understand the very good reason that narrative exists to begin with. Because it's an [01:23:00] unworkable narrative. If you really, truly believe that she doesn't love you and doesn't care about you, it the, the relationship is unworkable.
And if she has to be in a relationship where she's seen as the bad guy and unloving and in con constantly kind of interpreted through this lens, it's not workable on her end.
Brian: Yeah, I can see that.
Julie: Okay. So I want you to share with her that this narrative isn't just random, like, you know, you don't wanna take accountability or whatever. It's a safety strategy.
Brian: Do you want me to say that out loud?
Julie: I want you to say it out loud because I want her to know a little bit more because I'm, I'm pretty certain that's not what she sees in these moments. When you're saying get yourself and get out, I don't think that she sees that you're really just trying to keep yourself safe from this pain that you've been carrying around for a very long time.[01:24:00]
Brian: Yeah. I would say that when I remove myself from the situation, it helps me to heal and feel safe.
Julie: And part of removing yourself from the situation is assuming the worst from her. Assuming the bad intentions.
Brian: I wouldn't say that I assumed anything. I, I heard them from my own mouth or from her mouth, or.
Julie: You've heard her say very clearly, I don't care about you. Brian: No, no, no. Okay. No.
Julie: Right. So if she's not saying that clearly, then we have to assume that your brain is filling in the blanks. You're interpreting actions and words in that way. I think what you're telling me is it's very difficult for you to interpret it in any other way.
It just, it, it seems like that is the, a that has to be the truth. There's no other explanation here.
Brian: [01:25:00] Yeah I, I would say it's maybe 80, 90% accurate.
Julie: And again, I, I trust that you have good reasons for trusting that message. Your body trusts the message that she does not care. She just really, truly, at the end of the day, she really just doesn't care about my heart, about my feelings.
I trust that you have good reasons for going there. That's what negative cycles do. They communicate. I don't care about you, but I also trust that there might be a different explanation
Brian: from within me.
Julie: No, I, I, I trust that there, that maybe there's an alternative explanation that isn't, she just doesn't care.
I don't think you see that you're not, I don't think that [01:26:00] you have good reason to buy into that idea. You trust your experience.
Brian: Yeah, very much so.
Julie: So you trust the
lens that you've always kind of viewed these things through. I mean, whoever helped you kind of understand more about your feelings and trying to stay safe from painful emotions, and that's why we go in and do these things in these negative cycles.
Whoever helped you kind of see things through that lens. Nobody, so you Brian: I was just
gonna say, just myself,
Julie: right? So what you've done is
you've done what humans do, which is we try to make sense of these things that go wrong in a way that can help us feel safe. So when you can make sense of a situation as this person just doesn't care, they want, they, they're out to get me.
It's a, it's pretty easy to go. Yeah. So I just need to get away from this and go, you know, find situations that are actually safe.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And so let me, let me check in with you, Bethany, like, what is this bringing up in [01:27:00] you?
Bethany: His explanation, you mean?
Julie: Yeah, like just kind of seeing a little bit more around, you know, what you see in the negative cycle is you're the bad guy, you're the bad one.
I mean, you've said that multiple times and he just sees you as like malicious and is it, are you able to see something new here? Or, or, how's this hitting you?
Bethany: It makes sense that how he, it makes sense for him to feel safe that he, exits stage left, whether that's me exiting and, and him being by himself or, or vice versa.
So that, that part makes sense. I also think it makes sense that, Julie: but I wanna know, I wanna add a layer to
Bethany: how is it hitting that? How is it hitting me?
Julie: It, no, no, no. I wanna add a layer to that. It's not just that it's helps him stay safe to leave or to go to a place in his mind where he's leaving.
It's that before [01:28:00] that. It's the other person is the bad guy, the other person is out to get me. Like, do you see the link between you being out to get him in his mind and that kind of leading to a safety strategy for him? For sure. Okay. And, and has that been apparent to you before now that I'm the bad guy and he has to exit, that there's a good reason that there's some safety in making you the bad guy?
Bethany: I think up until, up until our, up until these sessions? . No, it didn't. Okay. Make sense. Okay. But going through these it has made sense and I've recognized that when he becomes non-communicative or, makes me leave or whatever, I, I recognize that that's his safe space.
Julie: Yeah. So let me just ask you this.
If you had like a, a person in [01:29:00] your life, a friend or, or a person, a co a, you know, authority figure at work or something, and like you really truly believe, like, you know, this person really is out to get me. They really, I mean
that, that happens in the world, right? People Yeah. Have reasons and they wanna harm us.
What would you want to need to do to keep yourself safe in that situation? Sure. You would wanna leave. Exactly. You'd wanna get out of there, right? And so I'm not saying that you are that person, but I'm hoping that you can recognize this Absolutely. Does make some sense here. It does. Yeah, it does. And I want you to tell him that that does actually make some sense to me.
I can see that that make, that makes more sense than just, when you just see him say, get your shit and leave.
Bethany: It makes sense to me that when you have that, that narrative, it's, it's a safe space for you. To exit.
It makes sense to me. [01:30:00]
Julie: And I would like to see, I would like, you know, this, step two of this is to figure out like what's happening on your end that, these messages are being sent.
How can we tweak this? 'cause I really don't believe that that's where your heart is. I just don't. Not but I also believe that in negative cycles, you know, when we don't know how to communicate through this stuff, it does send the message.
Bethany: Sure.
Julie: And Brian, I also believe that you came to this relationship.
You know, I, I believe that there's plenty of things going on on her end that are sending the messages. It's, you're not crazy. But I also believe that there is some of that narrative is a bit of a default on your end that we might wanna look at.
Brian: I think in this relationship, yes. After a certain point, like once we were about to be married, that's sort of when [01:31:00] I feel like if I could dig that up, that would be when it started. Because it, every single time after that, after that, it just seemed like too convenient to not be true in my own mind, that she is out to get me in some way or she doesn't care in some way.
Julie: So some people might have this happen, right? This same exact scenario and their brain might go to, look, they're just incapable of being of intimacy. That's what's going on with them is they're just kind of emotionally broken and
they're not deliberately wanting to hurt me, but I still can't stay in this relationship because they don't have the capacity to show up.
So I need to understand why your brain doesn't go there. Your brain goes to No, they deliberately wanna hurt me. I wanna understand more about that.
Brian: No,
I, I do feel that the, what you just mentioned as well that they are in, that she isn't incapable of recognizing [01:32:00] the hurtful things she said or have done, whether it be actions or words, and she's just not able to see that it is hurtful even when it's explained to her in plain words.
Julie: Right? And so the only other place you go after that, if, if, yes, if she can't do it, then it goes to this place where she actually deliberately wants to hurt me. And so I need for you to see that not everybody goes to that place when they're being hurt. Not everybody makes sense of it as they deliberately wanna hurt me.
Some people do.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And I
wanna understand why, why that is your end game. Why that's the ending place for you. That okay, none of this makes sense to me in any other way. So the only explanation is, and this is your nervous system in these tricky moments, right? It's not even, it happened so fast, it's not even a [01:33:00] conscious thought.
But where your nervous system always goes back to is, this is deliberate, this is malicious, and I need to understand why we end there.
Brian: I think it's a condition response to the trauma. Um,
Julie: I believe that too. So I wanna, so going forward here, my goal with you is to understand how we might shift that narrative a bit. Because if we can shift that into a different perspective, then maybe that will help you feel a little more safe because it's unworkable to think our, my partner deliberately wants to hurt me.
But then I also, on the other side of the equation, I've gotta shift her words and behaviors. So those messages aren't coming through that trigger that place in you to begin with. Yeah. Do you see how I'm working with both sides here?
Brian: Yeah, [01:34:00] absolutely. I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been looking forward to that portion of it because I would like some kind of response instead of this stone space.
Julie: I wanna help you with that but we can't forget the other piece of it, which is maybe being able in these moments when you get triggered, getting to the point where you might be able to step back and see it in a different way. It's hard. Your nervous system so quickly goes to malicious, and I wanna see if we can do some shifting here to get your nervous system to go somewhere different in, in the service of creating new outcomes.
Not in the service of just explaining it and saying, oh, this is why it is, but you know, we still continue doing it. I wanna do new things. But part of doing new things is shifting some of your narrative around. It's, it's reframing the [01:35:00] problem. We're gonna reframe it at from, she's malicious to, she gets hurt and goes into protective and defensive mode.
I get hurt and go into protective and defensive mode, and then our wounds are just bumping up against each other. Okay. All right. Well, we're gonna meet again this week. Let's try to get some more momentum going. Again, I'm not asking for anything more than 10 sessions. If after that 10 sessions you guys say, Hey, I think we're getting somewhere, let's, you know, go for a couple more or whatever, then we can be open to that.
But you're gonna benefit from it. Okay? So let's just take a breath with that one. You know, what we heard today was the deep, powerful wound that can keep a couple just permanently stuck, the narrative that my partner is out to get me. So
we explored how Brian's history from, you know, the childhood events that ha have [01:36:00] happened in his life and the stuff that's happened between him and Bethany.
It, it's conditioned him to interpret Bethany's actions as malicious. As I said in the session, I had to level with him. Nobody can be vulnerable with someone that they truly believe wants to harm them. This is truly unworkable if he believes Bethany is out to get him. So I've gotta move him away from that narrative if that's gonna happen, you know, ultimately I'm here to sell that narrative and he's has to choose whether or not he wants to buy it.
Okay? So the real breakthrough today was understanding why his brain goes there. It's a way that he is learned to stay safe. And then the way this shows up and this version of their negative cycle, which is so common for them is, step one of the cycle, Bethany as a function of already the unsafety in the relationship, you know, says or does something to let him down, whether it's intentionally or not.
And then [01:37:00] Brian's nervous system says, alarm and coming threat. Which comes from this meaning that he is making, which sounds like this is it dropped again, this is the proof. She doesn't care. Maybe she's just out to get me and there's just so much pain for him around that meeting. His body knows that place to be left alone in rejection and pain, and his body says, no, do not go back there.
And even though it's a scary meaning, it does feel safe on some level because it gives him really clear permission to run. There's a clear villain if someone does wanna hurt you, of course you run and find safety. So that fear and anger urge says Get out, escape. Then it comes out to Bethany, like, we'll just get your stuff and leave in this aggressive way, which of course, doesn't land on Bethany.
Well, and even in here for the last hour, you know, he's not interested in talking about any of his role here, that he doesn't trust that approach, yet his nervous system just. Trust staying fixated on Bethany. And again, this is really [01:38:00] unconscious. He's not doing this consciously, but his nervous system, just trust, staying fixated on Bethany is the bad guy, and here's why I need to be done with her.
And then of course, that terrifies Bethany and leaves her feeling misunderstood. And then her next move in the cycle is she reacts with just trying to clarify which matters. But they're both missing the root of the problem, which sounds more like on Brian's end, my body goes so quickly to get scared that you don't really want me.
And I have so much pain around that. Can you help me here? Can you see me here? And of course, Bethany needs to be there and to hold that if he delivers it in that way before she goes into explaining her intentions. Does need to happen, but again, we have to hold each other one at a time. And then again, next week we're going to move Bethany away from the place where she either just shuts down or keeps trying to show Ames wrong about her and we're gonna move her into a place where she NSAID speaks her truth with [01:39:00] clarity and health, which is going to sound like I do understand your pain, but at the same time, I'm not okay with this way.
You view me, I'm not okay Always being the bad guy in your eyes. It makes it impossible to feel safe and close. Alright, so for your homework this week, I want you to think about a time when you felt deeply hurt by your partner. What was the story that you told yourself about their intentions? Did you, like Brian, just assume they wanted to hurt you?
And if so, what did that story give you permission to do? Did it say, okay, it's okay to leave or yell or shut down because they just wanna hurt you? Is there another way to maybe make sense of that behavior, not just in that moment, but in the bigger context of the relationship and what these negative cycles have been communicating?
Alright, well, we would love to hear what comes up for you as you listen. So please send us a voice note or an email to support at the secure relationship, and your story might be featured [01:40:00] in a future episode. So thank you for joining me today. Thank you to Bethany and Brian for your vulnerability. This is the messy, difficult work of challenging the narrative that just keeps us safe, but also keeps us lonely and in conflict.
Wouldn't it be nice to get out of that and start doing new things? So until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.

Trust & WoundsCommunicationNegative Cycles

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Mapping Your Negative Cycle

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

Session 12: The Very Good Reasons Why The Avoidant Partner Avoids

Session 10: Does it Get Worse Before It Gets Better?