Session 10: Does it Get Worse Before It Gets Better?

Season 2
Written By Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Is there an expiration date on old wounds? This week, Brian struggles with seeing Bethany receive empathy for her car accident, as it triggers a deep, unspoken pain from his own past trauma. Months earlier, he was the victim of a violent attack that left him unable to work and feeling alone, which became the foundation for his "I'm done, I'm leaving" stance and his feeling of being a "second-class citizen."

This session is about the courage it takes to finally give voice to old hurt. The turning point isn't about deciding whose trauma was worse; it's the powerful breakthrough that happens when Brian shares his vulnerability, and Bethany, instead of defending, meets it with empathy, saying it "softens me." It's a profound lesson in co-regulation and how learning to receive each other's pain is the true foundation of healing.

This week's prompt: Reflect on an old hurt that still shows up in your current relationship. What is the feeling that gets triggered, and what do you wish your partner could see in that moment?

Send your responses to this prompt or any questions/comments you have about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecurerelationship.com. Your submission might be featured on a future episode.

  • Session 9: The Knock-Down, Drag-Out Fight for Co-Regulation  

    Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast.  I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a couples therapist and I'm author of the book  Secure Love. And so this session today starts with a bang, literally a bang. We're  gonna open up with Bethany telling us about this traumatic car accident that she  was in just a few days before our session.  

    Julie: And this is just a very powerful reminder of how fragile life is. And in the  immediate aftermath you'll hear about how you know Brian really showed up  with a lot of care and a lot of support, and then you know what happens after  this crisis passes. Well, this is a very big event that did bring Brian and Bethany  closer for a time.  

    Julie: Then one of these small things came up and really derailed things. And to  be honest, small things can really take a couple down. With most couples, big  things usually have really clear [00:01:00] expectations around them. When  your wife is in a car accident, you just show up. That's what you do. There's no  lack of clarity around that.  

    Julie: Of course, Bethany and Brian have also had big things go wrong in their  relationship, but the thing about little things is that they provide just as much  opportunity to unmet attachment needs. So for a relationship to be securely  attached, partners have to be meeting each other's attachment needs during  every interaction.  

    Julie: The second someone feels misunderstood or invalidated or like their  needs don't matter, or anything that interferes with attachment, safety, and  connection, and more importantly, if the couple doesn't know how to interrupt  that and reach each other and get back on track, then they're going to go into a  negative cycle, which gives them even more opportunity to drop each other's  needs.  

    Julie: So in reality, small things aren't small things at all. They represent the  biggest things of all the unmet attachment needs that [00:02:00] keep the  relationship safe and connected. Um, I'll also add here that couples who are  more securely attached, you know, as they, when their baseline is just more  secure, um, they're going to have more resilience because they trust each other  more and they're less likely to misperceive that needs are going unmet.  

    Julie: So they're going to be less impacted by small things. Um, okay, so, so  today that's, that's going to happen. We're going to see how a little thing became 

    a big thing, a misinterpreted text message about a baby monitor. And this is  where, you know, Brian's nervous system picks up a threat and to regulate that  threat, he responds with sarcasm.  

    Julie: So who amongst us has ever responded to a text with sarcasm? Raise  your hand. Probably all of us at some point. What's behind that sarcasm? Why  do we trust sarcasm in these moments more than we trust a healthier response?  Well, we're going to get [00:03:00] into just that today with Brian. So this is by  far my longest session with Bethany and Brian, and that's intentional.  

    Julie: You know, it's a, it's kind of a knockdown, drag out kind of a thing,  because I really wanted to drive home one crucial point. How do we co-regulate  when both partners are hurting? This session is all about what it takes to really  lean into one person's pain at a time, even when you are stuck in your own.  

    Julie: Alright, listeners transitioning here because we already know what's next.  It's time to dive into some of your emails and voice notes from last week. All  right, so let's start with Crystal. So Crystal says, hi, Julie. You mentioned during  the intro about damaging behaviors and unmet needs and that abusive situations  for control are something else.  

    Julie: I'm curious, since abuse also consists of damaging behaviors, how do you  navigate trying to identify damaging behaviors from unmet needs versus abuse?  How differently are they approached? [00:04:00] Well, that's a, a great question  

    Crystal. So first of all, someone who is being abusive, they're not trying to  connect, they're not trying to communicate.  

    Julie: I'm hurt and I'm actually trying to get your attention and bring some  attention around this hurt so you come back to me. Um, they're actually trying  to just control the other person by making them scared or they're just so  dysregulated in their own anger that they don't even know what else to do  except for, you know, um, just.  

    Julie: Try to harm and create as much damage as they can outside of  themselves. And partners who are being abused, they have a higher level of fear  for their own safety. They're actually worried I'm going to get like, really, really  hurt. There's nothing I can do about it. I can't escape. I'm totally powerless over  it.  

    Julie: Or I'm going to get physically harmed if I mess up, or I'm going to have  some sort of financial [00:05:00] consequences if I mess up. They're, they're  just living in a much higher state of fear. Um, and then I, I wanna be really 

    careful about getting. Too specific because I don't wanna, you know, anything  that I say, leave someone out there feeling justified that what they or their  partner is doing is just a normal part of fights when it might actually be a much  bigger problem.  

    Julie: And I, on the other hand, I don't want to leave anyone out there feeling  like they're in, just in a hopeless, abusive situation that might be more nuanced  and than it looks on the surface and more workable than they realize. So here's  what I have to say to that. If you even think that you might be in an abusive  relationship, if that thought is even going through your mind, then um, I really  want you to seek out a professional to help you with that, because they're gonna  be able to look at all the moving parts of your unique situation and give you the  clarity that you need.  

    Julie: And I do feel comfortable saying that if anyone is afraid for their own  physical [00:06:00] safety or that of their children, please do not hesitate to get  yourself safe and you can quickly Google. National Domestic Abuse Hotline for  more help with that. Okay, thank you for that, crystal. And next up we're going  to hear from Megan.  

    Julie: So Megan says, hi, Julie. On a few different occasions, we hear Bethany  ask Brian what I'm guessing in response to seeing him make a face while she  was, she is speaking. The pattern between them feels toxic to me and doesn't  seem productive. And I'm curious why at this point in the process there hasn't  been more attention from you to it.  

    Julie: I would guess the hope that is in time, Bethany and Brian will learn better  ways to communicate and so we should begin to see this behavior going away  on its own. However, with this week's episode being the eighth session, I'm  frustrated to still be hearing this exchange from the two of them while listening  to Bethany trying to be vulnerable, both with Brian and herself about something  that she's traditionally always avoided.  

    Julie: I would expect. [00:07:00] Everyone to hold space for her. I understand  the goal is not to induce shame in either partner, but is there a point that you as  the therapist take in the reins and say, Brian, this is passive aggressive at best  and Bethany, this is dismissive and you both have things to say with this  exchange that you keep repeating, but neither of you are being heard because  neither of you are communicating effectively.  

    Julie: My sensitivities to this may stem from my own baggage, so my  perception may be skewed, but it feels as though in those moments we're 

    hearing a relationship fracture happen in real time. And as such, allowing for its  existence without much attention paid to the harm it's doing. It's confusing me.  Thank you for sharing this work with us.  

    Julie: It was really lovely to hear how transformative the process was for  Melissa and Drew last season. And I'm hopeful Bethany and Brian will begin to  turn a corner soon. Okay, so this is a great question. Um, you know, first of all.  Eight sessions for a couple, like Bethany and Brian is really just scratching the  surface.  

    Julie: They're still going to be [00:08:00] doing a, we're still going to expect  them to be doing things in session that are leaving each other, which is why  they're here. Right. There's a lot to unpack in this relationship. You know, as  therapists, we have to pick a mission and we have to stay with it, so. Within  reason.  

    Julie: Okay. So if we try to address everything at once, either all the different  things that were set in a fight or each partner's roles, or even like what you  mentioned, things that happen in the session, which is what we call present  process. Those are the triggers coming alive in front of us. Um, if we try to shift  around and address all of that as it's flying at us and there's going to just be too  much on the table and it's gonna get really confusing and nothing is going to be  thoroughly addressed, which is exactly what couples do at home.  

    Julie: They don't stay with anything. They just bounce around, you know,  whenever, let's say a, a client, you know, I do, I do decide right to leave my  mission of, of going deeper with Bethany and instead [00:09:00] go into that  what? Because, and, and investigate that, because there could be many  situations where I might choose to do that.  

    Julie: Right. Um, but I have to be, I have to, the most important thing isn't  necessarily what you do, it's why you do it. You really just have to know, why  am I shifting over into this? What? Right now? Well, because I feel like it's  super, super important because I feel like if I don't go into that, what then we're  not gonna get anywhere with this processing with Bethany.  

    Julie: It's not gonna be effective because there's too much of a trigger in the air  around this. What? Um, so when this happens, I have three options. I can just  ignore it and bookmark it for later because I just wanna stay focused, which is  what? I did in the moment that you're referring to, um, sometimes I might  briefly mention it and say, you know, just notice how quickly that what comes  in when you get scared that maybe he's not engaged. 

    Julie: Let's just bookmark that for later. Um, but let's move on for now. Um, I  can try to maybe get some [00:10:00] quick reassurance around that. Like, you  know, Brian, I, you know, I wanna go in and do some work with Bethany, but I  just wanna know, are you open right now? Are you kind of with us? And see if  maybe he can say yes and that will settle her a bit.  

    Julie: Um, or I can go over to Brian and I can say, Hey, what's going on? You  know, right now what happens? You know, is she picking something up in your  body language that when, when she starts to talk, and you know, Bethany, I  know I started with you, but clearly something's coming up with Brian. So let  me go figure out what's going on with him so I can make sure that he is as open  as possible as you share.  

    Julie: Or I might go into Bethany and say, why is it that you're needing to say  what? Because there's not any health in the what it, the health, the, the what is  just part of a negative cycle anyway, regardless of what he's doing to trigger it  or not doing to trigger it. Um, so then I would need to kind of understand that,  um, all of what I do is going to go to the same place.  

    Julie: Whether we go with the what or we go with what she was originally  [00:11:00] speaking about, it's all going to go to unmet attachment needs and  emotional pain, and how we try to regulate that and in ways that show up in  these cycles, in ways that really don't help us reach our partner and don't, you  know, land well.  

    Julie: When you have, um, an es a really escalated couple, you're gonna get so  many of these, um, session moments, especially earlier in the therapy. So if  you're not getting into the content that they're bringing to the sessions, because  you're always just stopping going, why'd you say what, what's that look on your  face for?  

    Julie: They're going to feel unheard because the content is so important to them.  Um, and you know, again, as, as I say all of this, Megan, I'm not always right.  In fact, when I listened back to these sessions, I'm always thinking, you know, I  could have handled this better. I could have ha handled. That better. Um, and  sometimes I feel really strongly that I did make the right call, but [00:12:00] the  thing with EFT is that it always goes to the same place and we really don't have  to process every little thing, but we do have to be really intentional about our  mission so we can actually get to the real heart of the matter.  

    Julie: Okay, and so now we're going to hear from Debbie who is sending in a  voice note. 

    Listener Segment 1: Hi Julie. Thanks for your podcast. I'm really enjoying it. I  am also a couples therapist. I'm learning the EFT model and uh, I really, I really  appreciated this session. I. Um, when, when you were exploring the Lie, the  dishonesty with Bethany, I was really just waiting for it to be uncovered that  there was a reason, and I suspected it was this lack of trust that he would be  concerned with understanding her needs, and that he would be, you know,  flexible to meet her needs around what kind of wedding she hoped to have and  what it meant to her to have this big wedding to celebrate with her family.  

    Listener Segment 1: I, I really strongly suspected that there was [00:13:00] this, um, conflict in family values or, or difference is maybe the better word.  And likewise, you know, it was, I think that for a lot of us, especially maybe  

    your female listeners who are moms, like to hear that it was hard for him and he  kind of refused to go into the hospital initially when they had their baby, when  she was laboring.  

    Listener Segment 1: It, it broke my heart for her. Um, and I, I felt so mad at  him and, you know, there's this. Initial reaction, like this is inexcusable. But  there's also deep down, um, belief in me that he, there, there's a, a reason there's  a meaning behind going to the hospital for him, um, that, you know, we, I don't  think we hurt our partners in these huge ways when we really, truly love them  because we don't care.  

    Listener Segment 1: I think we hurt them because something is. Is in the way.  Something really big for us is in the way. And I think that's been made really  clear with Bethany here, and I think we'll see it soon with him too. [00:14:00] Um, and we've already seen some of it, so yeah. I really appreciate, I really,  really appreciate hearing this unfold in real time.  

    Listener Segment 1: And, uh. Really, really wanna applaud the couple. I know  that they're working really hard and it's a really vulnerable thing to do. So thank  you, all three of you for this gift.  

    Julie: Well, thank you for that beautiful voice note. Debbie, I'm so glad to hear  that you are learning how to do this work, um, and absolutely agree with  everything you're saying.  

    Julie: It is just, um, there's so much going on underneath the surface of these  behaviors that look so awful, right? I mean, lying and not being there for the  hospital and yeah, it's, you know, nobody, nobody responds well when they hear  about these hurtful, hurtful things. But there's always this other story going on 

    underneath there, um, about these painful feelings that are trying to get managed  and these unmet needs that are trying to get met.  

    Julie: And isn't it great that we [00:15:00] can go in here and help couples  figure out better ways? To get those needs met and better ways to help those  feelings inside of them so that they don't have to keep going into these  behaviors that just push each other away and leave each other feeling  abandoned and betrayed.  

    Julie: So thank you for that. And lastly, we're going to go to Heidi with another  voice note.  

    Listener Segment 2: Hi Julie. This is Heidi again. Repeat customer. Um, my  question for this week and last week's episode was, um, really powerful. Um,  my question is, in your experience, and, and maybe we'll see some of this as this  season goes on with Brian and Bethany, but in your experience, at what point is  it like just not attachment style issues?  

    Listener Segment 2: Um, definitely that comes into play as far as right, how to  get along and resolve conflict and meet each other's needs [00:16:00] emotionally. And, um, but like. You know, when, you know, in last week's  episode and sharing some of like, maybe some fundamental things at play, like,  you know, withholding some of the financial information and um, uh, you  know, that, to me that doesn't seem like an attachment style issue.  

    Listener Segment 2: And, um, I, I bring this up just 'cause I can relate in my  own relationship. Like, I'm trying to really figure out like, okay, we can fix our  attachments and, and fix some of those issues. But when you have some  fundamental disagreements on like how to spend money, how to save money,  how to make decisions about this, and you know, at what point, and do you see  this in couples where like you, you're just fundamentally different or you can't  resolve some of those.  

    Listener Segment 2: Issues, and then especially if it's ongoing and not  resolved, like the deep, deep hurt. And I know you alluded to that [00:17:00] maybe in the last episode or the episode before about getting to some of like the,  the deep hurt stuff and, and working through that. But, um, so yeah, I guess  that's my question for you and um, hopefully that made sense.  

    Listener Segment 2: Thank you again for all you do. Uh, it is really life  changing. Thank you. 

    Julie: Hi, Heidi. Welcome back. So that's a great question and I'm going to  answer that, not because you're a repeat customer, because, but because it's such  a good question in that I get asked all the time by, you know, um, everyone in  my life who knows I'm a therapist and, and the couples that I work with who  come to me saying, okay, this attachment stuff sounds great, but like, what if  we're just incompatible?  

    Julie: And I always say the same thing. Look, there is a chance that you are  incompatible, meaning there is a chance that you just see things so differently.  You're on. Such different pages about life, about money, about parenting, about  politics or religion or whatever it is that you, you just cannot have a good  [00:18:00] life together because these, um, incompatibilities would just keep  blocking your abilities as, as individuals to have happy lives.  

    Julie: And, um, so what I say is, is that is a possibility, but we'll never know if  we don't First. Uncover the communication problems. We cannot know if it's  incompatibility, if, if communication isn't stable, if there's still negative cycles,  because that's the first layer of the problem. So that is where we have  attachment styles come into play because people don't go into negative cycles  when they have secure attachment with themself because they know how to  communicate in a healthier way.  

    Julie: They know how to use vulnerability, they know how to use healthy  assertion. They know how to respond to each other and hold each other in a  healthier way. So I don't mean to say that they never go into negative cycles, but  they're far, far, far more rare and they're not as escalated and more, most  importantly, they just repair them more [00:19:00] quickly.  

    Julie: So. That is where we have the this attachment stuff come into play, which  is how are you communicating about whatever these things are that you're  wondering if we're incompatible about? So Bethany and Brian come to me and  they're like, Hey, you know, you've done a great job. We've done a great job  here with this work.  

    Julie: And we're, we've gotten to this place in our relationship where we can  speak safely to each other and we can talk about money in a way that we're able  to kind of share all about the, the deeper needs that we have around money and  why, you know, this expenditure feels important to me. And, and I'm able to  hear why some things feel important to you and, and hold that and really step  into your world and understand where you're coming from. 

    Julie: And we don't go into these negative cycles and we can validate each  other. Um, but still, we, we still just do not agree, you know, at the end of the  day. Um. Brian wants to go live off the grid and, you know, [00:20:00] rural  Maine and, um, his, his whole life, he's dreamed of that. And that's the only way  that Brian feels like he can be happy.  

    Julie: And I just couldn't ever do that. I need to go live in, you know, um,  Manhattan and be surrounded by hustle and bustle, and that's the only way that I  could ever be happy. And there's, there's just such a fundamental difference  there that there's no way that we can ever meet each other. Then I would say,  Hey, that's a, that's a major incompatibility.  

    Julie: If, if that's something that you guys have had really healthy conversations  about and, um, really feel heard and held in that, um, but you still have decided  that you're too far apart on this issue, then there, there's a very good argument to  make that maybe this relationship isn't going to work. But again, I'm here.  

    Julie: Not to help them solve these problems. I'm here to help them  communicate about these problems in a healthy way. So we don't have two  problems. We're not dealing with one, the [00:21:00] actual logistics of money,  which is hard enough alone. And on top of that, the way we're talking to each  other has all these unmet attachment needs flying around, and we're feeling  invalidated and misunderstood.  

    Julie: And so we're trying to talk about money while we're scrambling around  trying to feel safe and connected with each other. So my job is to get that.  Communication cleaned up. And that's where the attachment styles are most  relevant. You know, people, people's attachment styles aren't gonna really  impact that much how they wanna spend money or, um, how many kids they  wanna have, right?  

    Julie: But they are going to dramatically impact the way they do vulnerability  and healthy assertion in their relationships. And if they don't know how to do  that with, which people with insecure attachments do not know how to do, they  will get stuck in the negative cycles that keep them from resolving the problems  that they think might just be fundamental in compatibilities.[00:22:00]  

    Julie: Well, thank you Heidi, for your voice note, and I appreciate all of you for  listening and struggling through this work together. And real quick listeners, just  some housekeeping before we get into today's session with Bethany and Brian.  So next week's episode is gonna be a little bit different. We're actually going to 

    revisit and catch up with our season one couple, Melissa and Drew to just check  in on how they are.  

    Julie: And it's been about a year after we wrapped up with them last December,  I believe. So we're all, you know, so excited and we were all so grateful to hear  their story and their progress and their journey toward a more securely attached  and co-regulate relationship. Um, and so stay tuned for that, that check in with  Melissa and Drew next week.  

    Julie: And All right, well now let's dive into today's session with Bethany and  Brian. Alright, well how, how were the last few days  

    Brian: eventful  

    Bethany: oh my.  

    Julie: All right, [00:23:00] let's talk.  

    Bethany: Uh, do you wanna go? Do you want me to go?  

    Brian: Um, we were, you know, we were talking on Friday morning about, uh,  and the, the exchange for me to pick her up.  

    Brian: She was not feeling good, went to sleep and we were talking, I was  down at my shop and trying to get my day started and there was all kind of  things going on, and I was on the phone and she called a few times and I didn't  answer 'cause I just talked to her and I figured she was just gonna tell me about,  um, but she ended up getting in a real bad car accident.  

    Brian: And fortunately enough she was like, wa just walked away like  unscathed. But oh my gosh. Her car was like destroyed. And then  

    Bethany: fortunately our daughter was not with me.  

    Julie: Oh my God.  

    Julie: Well, what happened?  

    Bethany: Um, I was driving to work. Um, it's just a two lane road and there is a  small side road. Not even like a street in a city like this is pretty rural.[00:24:00] 

    Bethany: And I saw this car coming to what should have been a stop sign and  they weren't stopping and I couldn't, didn't do anything. And he t-boned me, um,  in the passenger side of my car. And I, I saw it happening and I could hear my  dad in my head, like, like, when you're about to hit a deer, don't swerve, don't  slam on your brakes.  

    Bethany: Like same concept. Didn't do anything. He hit me. I don't exactly  know what happened, but spun me into the guardrail. I rolled airborne, no, um,  and came to rest, uh, against a tree. Um, like my driver's side door was against  the tree. Um, all the side airbags blew. I had no idea where I was. Like,  proximity wise from not like I got knocked out.  

    Bethany: I didn't get knocked out, but like, I, I didn't know where I was. I knew  I was in the woods somewhere, but I didn't know where. And it turns out I  [00:25:00] was on a hillside, uh, and the only thing that kept me from going  down the big hill was the tree. So it's been a very traumatic weekend.  

    Julie: Yeah. Did you go to the hospital?  

    Julie: Did  

    Bethany: they treated me on the scene. I have a, um, I don't even know,  puncture wound, something on my, on my arm from plastic coming out of my  driver's side door. It like tore through my coat, tore through my shirt, um, that  mark and a couple small bruises. But that, that is it. I literally crawled out of the  car.  

    Bethany: I, I couldn't even believe it. I couldn't even believe it. It was bad.  

    Brian: Yeah. Our car was essentially like a Christmas ornament on a tree, you  know? So she's lucky. I'm just glad that, um, for whatever reason, that she didn't  decide to take that day because, um, they, they hit her [00:26:00] on the car seat  side and, you know, who knows what would've happened.  

    Brian: Um, you know, had it been different, it's probably rather not think about  it,  

    Bethany: right.  

    Brian: But it was, it was pretty scary. 

    Bethany: Brian was so helpful. There were only two people and it was just such  a cluster because I couldn't find my phone at first. And then, you know, you get  those, you set up emergency contacts in your iPhone.  

    Bethany: And so a while ago I had removed him from one, so he wasn't one,  but my mom and my dad and my sister all were, so they all got a, a text  message that said SOS crash reported phone called nine one one. No. And then  my car, and it shows the location. And then my car was calling 9 1 1. I think at  the same time.  

    Bethany: And so like I hear people talking between like my car speakers and  I'm trying to say like, I'm okay. I think I'm okay. Was this your emergency  contacts calling or was it No, no, no. Like 9 1 1. And then at the same time  [00:27:00] my dad's trying to call me, but he, I didn't know that 'cause I couldn't  find my phone. So then he gets my voicemail.  

    Bethany: It was just like finally I was able to talk to him. I was able to talk to  my dad. They both came from different directions. Um, he stepped in and he  was like, I'll just take you to the hospital. I was treated on the scene but he  wanted me to go to the hospital so he drove me there, took me to get a rental  car.  

    Bethany: Um, but you know, all the checklist things like, gotta go get a rental  car, gotta go buy a new car seat. Um, you know, all of those other, gotta go back  to your car and get all of your stuff out of it. All that stuff.  

    Julie: That's just awful. I am so sorry. Thanks. But I'm so happy and relieved  too. I mean,  

    Bethany: it's probably the, it's the only big traumatic thing I think that we've  ever been through in terms of like in injury or, or emergency in some way. [00:28:00]  

    Bethany: Um, he was amazing. He was so amazing and I, and I felt bad  because I know, you know, he was missing work again. Um, you know, he was,  it was just a lot for him to, to step away and, and he did it. Um, he made the  calls to the insurance company while I was in the er. So I, I was very thankful  and appreciative that he was there.  

    Julie: I don't know if this is how relevant this is, but I'm curious, like, why, why  was the guy running the stoplight? 

    Bethany: It wasn't a stop sign, it wasn't a stoplight. Um, he said he slid on ice.  Oh. Do you believe that he was 76 or is 76? Um, I saw him. And what looked  like, I thought it was almost like he had pulled into this little road to almost do a  u-turn and come back out.  

    Bethany: But what I think after hearing what he said, I think maybe I saw him  fishtailing.  

    Julie: Yeah.  

    Bethany: Yeah. And so he was, he was coming pretty quick. Um, and he was  able to [00:29:00] put his bumper in the, in his trunk, I think, and, and drive  away. So he was okay. I guess so. Oh. But they, I mean, he didn't leave the  scene. He Okay. You know, spoke with police and stuff, but Oh my gosh.  

    Bethany: Yeah. I shut down the handedly shut down the, that stretch of  highway for what, an hour, an hour and a half. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure people saw  your car and were just horrified driving by. Oh, yeah. The police told me that  one of the 9 1 1 callers said like, rollover in in the air. Yeah.  

    Julie: Well, I'm just so grateful that you're okay.  

    Bethany: Thank you. Thank you.  

    Julie: So, gosh, I don't even know where to go from.  

    Bethany: Well, we've here, I mean, we've had a negative cycle since then. Um,  Julie: okay.  

    Julie: What, I'm just amazed that you're, I'm just trying to imagine how I would  be, I don't know [00:30:00] if  

    Bethany: I, I'm not, I mean, I'm not really Okay. I mean, physically I'm okay  mentally is probably questionable,  

    Julie: but do you think  

    Julie: you have some like PTSD or, I mean,  

    Bethany: I think so. 

    Bethany: I, I can't, I have a hard time closing my eyes at night. I'm falling  asleep.  

    Julie: You're dreaming like you're,  

    Bethany: I'm seeing it.  

    Julie: Flashbacks and seeing. Okay. Well, do you have, um, are you planning to  maybe get some help with that?  

    Bethany: I think I'll be okay in the long run. I do. I think it's just so new. And I,  and part of it was, and I tried to explain this to him, and I think this is why like  our, our negative cycle happened, but, you know, I was able to see.  

    Bethany: All the people that I wanted to see or needed to see, except I wasn't  able to see my daughter after, because it was his weekend with her because  what, it was his weekend with her because, you know, we, we share weekends.  So like, it was his weekend with, with our daughter, so he did the pickup at  daycare. Um, you know, I was able to see him [00:31:00] obviously all day  Friday.  

    Bethany: And my parents, my sister, my nephews, all the important people, but  I wasn't able to see her. And he texted me on Friday afternoon saying, you  know, he pulled into daycare, reflected on the day. And like, he was like, and  when she ran into my arms and I just hugged her, it was just like, you know,  relief, like thinking about what could have been.  

    Bethany: And like the, I obviously wanted to see him and, and was happy I was  able to, but the, I just, I just wanted to squeeze her and I wasn't able to until  yesterday and. It just, it, it didn't bother me in a mad way, but he got all the time  with her this weekend that I just really, really felt like I wanted or needed, and  I'm not knocking him.  

    Julie: Given the circumstances, kind of what, what happened that you couldn't,  like, make an exception here?  

    Bethany: Um, well, I also said to him, we, we went to lunch on Friday too, and  I [00:32:00] said to him, it's probably good that he has her this weekend just so I  could like rest and recoup a little bit. I should have been a little more assertive  and said, you know, can I see her for a little bit tonight? 

    Bethany: But I, I didn't do that. I, I think, I just assumed he would say no. And I  told him that after the fact. I told him that yesterday or Saturday. Um, but even  if I would've seen her for 20 minutes just to squeeze her, I feel like it would've.  So, but it was like we went back into single dad mode, shared custody mode  where I get, you know, my one phone call Friday night.  

    Bethany: And  

    Julie: so you, so what time, what day did this accident happen?  Bethany: Friday morning.  

    Julie: Okay. So you did Friday morning and then you did all this stuff. You  went and got the rental car, you did all the logistical stuff. To me, it seems kind  of, you know, like a given that you would see her after this, but that [00:33:00] wasn't a given for you two.  

    Bethany: No, I, I didn't ask. I probably should have, but, or maybe I should  have just gone to pick her up from daycare and that would've been probably  enough for me. Right. But I didn't, I didn't ask, um, and he didn't offer, and I  would've liked, I said I would've liked to have even talked to her right after  

    school, even if it was just FaceTime.  

    Bethany: But I didn't get to talk to her until 10 o'clock at night..  

    Julie: Okay. Well, does that, I mean, does that feel like something we should  talk about or is that,  

    Bethany: I don't know if it's that, and then it was like, it, it was just, you know,  is she in bed yet? And you know, the, the baby monitor wasn't on and usually I  have access to the baby monitor and it was just like all these things where it's  like I just wanted to see my baby and I couldn't.  

    Bethany: And for whatever reason that, you know, seeing her sleep on the baby  monitor is, is like a peace of mind for me.  

    Julie: Um, and it, Brian, is that something you would've been open to  [00:34:00] if she would've asked, given the circumstances?  

    Brian: Yeah, I mean, given the circumstances, I just, you know, when we, we  got, got released from the hospital, everything was fine. 

    Brian: And then I took her to get a rental car and then we went and had lunch,  and then she, you know, made it seem like she had all these things to do and she  wanted to see her family and it was. You know, it was just, I'm just gonna get  back to my day.  

    Julie: All right. So it wasn't like you were going No, I, this is my time, you  know?  

    Brian: No,  

    Bethany: no, he didn't.  

    Julie: I see. Okay.  

    Bethany: No, he didn't.  

    Julie: I, okay. I wasn't now. Okay. So I checked that out. So I'm not sure that's a  useful direction to go with our time. No. Where do you wanna go? I think you  probably have a useful direction.  

    Brian: No, I mean, like later that evening, like she had talked to her for, I don't  know, 10, 15 minutes, something like that.  

    Brian: And then it was bedtime. So I, I put her to bed and, you know,  [00:35:00] brushed teeth, read a story, read another story, and then I fell asleep  with her and I came back out and it's just like, I got text messages like, why isn't  the baby on her arm? What is this? What is that? You know? And it's just like  attacking me.  

    Brian: And I got rather annoyed, like quickly I felt like I was a stellar husband  and stellar just citizen that day. And it's like. You're coming at me like, because I  fell asleep or the monitor wasn't on. And it, like, the monitor to me is just a, a  complete invasion of privacy. Like, it's, it's almost like a, like I'm an excon that  has to, you know, in order to appease the courts, you know, make sure that the  mother has access to the monitor.  

    Brian: But, you know, I, I'm just so inept as a parent to handle any situation  that's thrown at me and it's  

    Julie: okay. So the, [00:36:00] so Bethany, you like the monitor because it helps  you feel connected when you're away. 

    Bethany: The monitor was put in place when we first separated because, um,  we have a very, we, we have a, basically a memorandum of understanding, um.  

    Bethany: Between our, our two attorneys of what the structure would look like  when I left last February, and the baby monitor was part of it because at that  time, number one, he was recovering from a bicep surgery. Number two, he was  drinking a significant amount. Number three, he had never gotten up with the  baby before at all, ever.  

    Bethany: And number five, he, he always has just slept like the dead and, and  sometimes sleepwalk. So when I left, I did not feel comfortable having our baby  stay here [00:37:00] overnight given all of those factors. And so the baby  monitor situation was put in place when I left last February.  

    Julie: Okay. So for you, this is a peace of mind issue.  

    Julie: There's all these reasons why you're needing to know she's okay  

    Bethany: Yeah. And it's not so much, I will, I will say it's not so much anymore.  Um, it's, it was more definitely in, in the beginning. Um, but it has come kind of  like a, a, a peace of mind for me. But it's, I get, I know it's not so much of an  issue anymore.  

    Bethany: Um, but I think if it was up to him, he would not have a baby monitor  on her at all. And she's only three. And I just don't, I just don't agree with that.  But, and he's rolling his eyes.  

    Julie: What? Well, I just am curious how you guys talk about the baby monitor.  I mean, I don't know that there's a, you know, hard, clear right or wrong answer.  

    Julie: Some people [00:38:00] do them, some don't. Um. It sounds like at the  time when there's all these extenuating circumstances, when you had it set up,  there's, that's another thing, but now the, the baby monitor's still there. And so  what happens is, is you guys start talking about the baby monitor in a negative  

    cycle.  

    Julie: Can you see, see that right now?  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: Like you go into this place of like making your argument as why the,  having the baby monitor's a good thing and or why not having the baby mo I'm 

    sorry. Why having the baby monitor is, um, is a bad thing, is invasive or, but no,  neither of you, I'm really seeing, kind of try to understand where the other  person's coming from or talk about the more vulnerable feelings underneath this  baby monitor issue.  

    Julie: So should we try that? Like what, what usually happens? Brian, you're  you, you're like, look, I hate this baby monitor. It's awful. It's, it's an invasion.  And then Bethany, you get defensive, right? You start defending why you like  the baby monitor, why the baby monitor's a good  

    Julie: [00:39:00] idea.  

    Bethany: I even said to him, I even said to him on Saturday, listen, I will forego  my access to the baby monitor.  

    Bethany: I will if it  

    Julie: right. But we're still, that's just like, that's leaping into the problem  solving. 'cause there wouldn't be an issue around the baby monitor if there  wasn't some significant emotions going on around it.  

    Bethany: Right,  

    Julie: right. So you guys are wanting to kind of bypass the emotional piece and  just talk about it from a, you know, protesting or what are we gonna do  logistically standpoint, but that's not really getting you anywhere because we're  missing the most important piece, which is the emotional piece.  

    Julie: So I would like to see us kind of see if we can meet each other in that  zone and then maybe try to talk about the baby, what we do with the baby  monitor. Okay. Do you wanna go first?  

    Brian: Sure. Tee it up.  

    Julie: All right. So I wanna know what, what this baby monitor means to you.  Like, you know, there's two ways of dealing with the baby monitor.  

    Julie: One is, is, you know, look, I don't like the idea of it, but I [00:40:00] kind  of understand where she's coming from and, um, whatever, you know, or the  other way is, no, this isn't working for me. Like I absolutely can't do this. Um,  actually scratch all that. You just tell me. That was a, that was a bad que a bad  line of questioning. 

    Julie: You just tell me what is so bothersome about this baby monitor for you.  

    Bethany: Wait, can we clarify? Are we talking about me having access to it or  are you using it in general or are we talking about both?  

    Brian: All the above.  

    Bethany: Okay, go for it then.  

    Brian: Um, it, it's not reciprocated like I think that there's some common trust  that I would have with her that she's not gonna do anything to.  

    Brian: You know, leave our, our child like unattended to, and it's not  reciprocated for me and on, and, and she doesn't, I never made her get a monitor  at her house. Um, [00:41:00] and I, I just feel like there's so many more things  in life that I have succeeded at and, and already having a 12-year-old that is still  living and breathing at this point, I just don't see why I am like so inept that I  have to be watched and, and it's, she's gonna come across and make all of her  like Gerber mom type protests about it.  

    Brian: But the, the underlying thing about it is control. And she wants to  control me, and she records the, my interactions with the monitor, um, from her  devices, you know, when she stays at her house. And I just, you know, it's, it's  very multifaceted to me.  

    Julie: She  

    Julie: records you when you're on the baby monitor.  

    Brian: She [00:42:00] records the entire time she sleeps.  

    Bethany: No, I  

    Bethany: don't.  

    Brian: Yeah, you do.  

    Bethany: No, I have, I I don't, I do not. That's a, that's a, would be a 10 hour  screen share. 

    Julie: All right. Even I, I hear you. This is hard. There's, it's not super  straightforward, but regardless we can agree that the baby monitor feels  invasive to you. Right? I mean, if you,  

    Brian: yeah, I mean,  

    Julie: if this is really important, Bethany, that this, no, I can't go forward  because this feels so unfair, then I can shift over.  

    Julie: But we can stay with this.  

    Brian: I just, I just feel that, um, it's, it's invasive. It, it, you know, makes me  feel like, uh, I'm not worthy to be trusted, you know?  

    Julie: Okay. So you said a couple things. You said one is it doesn't feel fair  because she, it's not reciprocated, she doesn't have to do that. And then there's  this other issue that's, she doesn't trust me.  

    Julie: She sees me as inept. She's just trying to control me. Which of these feels  the most, like the biggest for you? [00:43:00] The, the part of not being trusted.  

    Brian: You know, I, I have confidence, so I, I know that I'm not inept. It's, it's  just her control and like, her lack of respect for me as a, as a dad. Okay. So  

    Julie: let's go with that, because it, I, I get it.  

    Julie: Like, you don't think you're inept, but you get messages from her, you  know, need to control this situation. And Bethany, I'm not judging that, but you  get messages from that, that she sees you as inept and. And or she just wants to  control you. What if she does, just like, if she just wants to control you?  

    Julie: What's so bad about that?  

    Brian: I wholeheartedly think that that's what she's trying to do. Not just in this  situation.  

    Julie: And you, and you've thought this, you, okay. You think this in general?  Like in general in the relationship, there's this part of you that believes she's just  trying to control me.  

    Brian: Yes. 

    Julie: [00:44:00] Okay. And so the last time this happened was the baby  monitor.  

    Julie: When she comes at you and she says, why isn't it on? Why isn't it on  

    Brian: to me? It diminished like what I did for her that day. And it just like, it's  a new slate and it's like she has like power over me or, you know, she can  control me in some form or fashion by like, you know, checking to see the  monitor or whatever.  

    Brian: It's. I, I feel like it's very condescending.  

    Julie: Okay. So you, your, your brain just goes right to, you know, this place  where you're feeling controlled. It's kind of hard for you to step back and go,  okay, there's some, there's, you know, kind of an extenuating circumstance here.  I'm sure she's kind of shaken up and maybe some of that's what's going on,  right?  

    Julie: It's hard for you to kind of go into that place. [00:45:00]  

    Brian: Yeah, it, it is, you know, I was empathetic about it, you know, all day,  uh, up until that point and, you know, it was triggering for me. Um, you know,  it's, the control in our daughter has been, I don't know, there's probably five  factors of the demise of our marriage, and those are two big ones, is the birth of  our daughter and the control.  

    Julie: So anytime you have a Well, and we have the financial stuff, right? Does  that,  

    Brian: there's, there's the finance stuff, there's the control, there's everything  surrounding, you know, her treatment and my treatment and how we parent,  parent, our daughter. Um, there's the treatment of my daughter [00:46:00] as a  result of our daughter being born.  

    Brian: Um, all so we, these, the, and the lying.  

    Julie: All right? We've got these issues and one of them is control. And that's  what we're working for now. And again, you know, I think in a perfect world,  you know, probably there would've been a little bit of leeway to her considering  like this trauma that she went through. 

    Julie: But you're not able to do that because your body goes into this triggered  scared state, right? And there's back the backstory here. And the backstory is, is  that. You know, I'm, I'm already walking around the relationship feeling  controlled. So it's kind of, it's hard to kind of put that to the side in these  moments when it gets tapped into,  

    Brian: yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. Um, so let's talk about then that then what happens? You get the  message when, when she goes to, Hey, why isn't the baby monitor on? What  happens for you? Like, what comes up right then and there?  

    Brian: At the time, I think I was sarcastic. [00:47:00] Um,  

    Bethany: you said she's doing, I said, is she's sleeping? You said, no, she's  doing jumping jacks.  

    Bethany: I said, oh my. Okay. Goodnight. And I said, goodnight. And you fired  back.  

    Julie: What are you hear? She, you, you, she says you're, she's sleeping. Right.  But what do you hear? What goes through your mind right there?  

    Brian: Um. Like, like it's just total chaos and unstructure around here. Like,  you know, we're shooting live guns in the living room and we're listening to  wild music and, uh, we're chugging sugar and there's way in ever going to sleep.  

    Brian: You know what I mean? Like, it's, it just seems like total melee is, is  what she like portrays to me. And it's just like that I don't have structure. And  you know, I think it was 49 minutes from the time she hung up the phone to  asking me why the monitor isn't on. And it's like, to me, in my head it's, it's so  simple.  

    Brian: It's like, [00:48:00] don't you know, she has to brush her teeth and, and  go to bed and read a story and you know that she likes to read the same story  twice. And  

    Julie: so I'm just trying to figure out here the very good reason that, you know,  this goes to this big, big place. She's just sleeping, right? Like it sounds so  simple. 

    Julie: It sounds like a pretty simple thing that parents might ask each other, but  for you it's not so simple. There's all this other message coming through. I need  to understand a little bit more about that because I would like to see you guys  get to a place where you can not have to go to these big places with these just  kind of normal parenting.  

    Julie: Comments.  

    Julie: Comments. Has it always been like that since the, the baby was born?  

    Brian: Yeah. It's, it's, it's always, it's always this condescending. I know more  than you, but she, she may, [00:49:00] but you know, I've been a parent for 12  years and she's been a parent for three years. And it's like she knows better than  me and it's just like superiority thing that she has with me that's like, I'm better  than you.  

    Brian: I'm smarter than you. I, I, you know, I, I've done more things than you.  And then she fires back with like, throwing things in my face. Well, like, well, I  changed her all these diapers and you know, you'll hear her say, you know, five  minutes ago, like, he's never had any experience like getting up with her. And  it's like,  

    Julie: mm-hmm.  

    Julie: So her fear, whenever she goes into a fear place, right, where she's, or her  concern, or whatever we wanna call it, that communicates to you that what you  hear is she, I'm less than, she sees me as, less than, she sees me as inept. She  sees me as not knowing what I'm doing here. What is that like for you? Like  what, [00:50:00] what would it be like for you if you know that that's just kind  of how it always is, where you always feel like you're on the other end of her  judgment of your capabilities?  

    Brian: Yeah. I've said it many times. I, I, I just can't go on, you know, with,  with this type of treatment.  

    Julie: Okay. Telling me you can't go on is, is important, but I don't know what,  you can't go on from, I don't know what that's like for you to, to feel like you're,  you're less than. Is that  

    Brian: Yeah. I mean, I, I think in, in most of these sessions, like if you strip it  all down, it's, it, it's sort of is a reoccurring theme. 

    Brian: It's like my feelings are always second class. I'm a second class citizen.  It's, I'm better than you. I know more than you. And it's then when we bring up  like her faults on things, it's like. We never really get to the, the root of  [00:51:00] them. We just keep moving on. And it's like, I have to keep like  laying in this like lonely space when I, I feel I'm very qualified to do all the  things that I'm, you know, not only me individually or as a, as a business owner  or as a family member.  

    Julie: Yeah. So I wanna work with her. I, I do, you know, I wanna keep  understanding like why she goes into her moves and I can do that, you know,  that's a different conversation and we'll have it, but I need to know why you are  still getting sarcastic and getting triggered and kind of not really sharing directly  what's going on with you.  

    Julie: Like, what is that sarcasm about? Because that doesn't work either, right?  I mean, that is part of these negative cycles is the way that we're  communicating.  

    Brian: So what is going on with me?  

    Julie: Yeah. Cause 'cause it's like, okay, you know, I, I would like to see her  maybe share, you know, [00:52:00] maybe she could come at you about the  baby monitor thing in a bit of a different way, a softer way. I don't know. I'll talk  to her about that. But right now I gotta kind of work with you and figure out  why you are not doing that too.  

    Julie: Right. Why are you going into sarcasm?  

    Julie: There's a good reason for it. No, no judgment. I mean, this is what I do is  work with couples to get out of these cycles. I mean, do you recognize that that  sarcasm is kind of part of the issue here and it's not a useful thing?  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Brian: Um,  

    Brian: I don't know how to put it into words as to why I would be sarcastic in  that moment.  

    Julie: That's what we need to figure out because as long as you are still  handling your triggers with, you know, sarcasm and protests, we really, we 

    won't get out of this. So if, you know, I'm just looking at the gold standard here  and working [00:53:00] backwards, it would be like, okay, hold, hold on.  

    Julie: You know, it could look like this. It could look like you kind of stepping  back and go, okay, something's coming up for me. This is where I go to that  place where I start to feel like her control or her messages that I'm, I'm less in or  whatever, you know what, what can I do with this? Yeah, that's a scary place for  me.  

    Julie: But I know, I also know she had this trauma and like how can I kind of be  the co-regulation here and be like, Hey listen, I know you're scared. This is a  lot. Let me just kind of reassure you here that we're doing okay. Or you might  choose to go, Hey, hold on, something's coming up for me right now. You know,  I'm, I'm kind of going to that place where I feel misunderstood or unseen.  

    Julie: Can we, can you help me out with that before we go forward here? Do  you see what I'm saying? Like, those are, that's the vulnerable conversation.  That's the, I guess, more direct conversation, the more authentic conversation.  So what's blocking that? Why does the sarcasm, why does your body trust the  sarcasm, [00:54:00] but it doesn't trust this other way, the healthy way?  

    Brian: Probably because it's a trigger and I, I felt like more so probably the next  day I handled it a little bit better.  

    Julie: So I'm, I'm really glad about that. That's, you know, that's of course  movement and growth. I just, I still, you know, we can't overlook, I'm gonna  have to latch onto points in cycles where we could, everybody could do  something new. And for you, I need to know why. 'cause things are gonna go  south when you go with sarcasm.  

    Julie: Unless Bethany's able to be the one at that point to pick it up and go,  okay, hold on. What's happening here? Everybody has wiggle room in a given  moment. Maybe I need to have a conversation with her next about why did you  bring this up to him in such a blaming way to begin with, if that's what  happened.  

    Julie: But right now we gotta really stay on mission with this sarcasm. 'cause  wouldn't it be nice if you guys didn't have to go to [00:55:00] blame and  sarcasm and kind of communicate in that way? 

    Brian: Yeah. It, it would be nice if it's just like never brought up again. You  know, it's like if she would just have it in her heart that it's, that I'm very  capable, then I,  

    Julie: I would like to lower the triggers here and get you guys communicating  in a way that, um. Is less triggering to begin with, but I, but I also recognize that  there are going to be times when we trigger each other, whether it's this topic or  another topic. So I've gotta figure out how, just on your end right now, we can  shift so you don't have to keep going back into sarcasm.  

    Julie: What's safe about sarcasm?  

    Julie: What's that sarcasm trying to say? Like, first of all, I, I think we can  assume, like it starts with this, oh no, here I am again, back in that [00:56:00] same place where I feel like I'm getting messages that I'm inept or, you know,  incompetent or less than, and that feels bad. And that causes me to have a fear  because the fear is, is that I'm gonna keep finding myself stuck in this place  again and again and I'm not being seen.  

    Julie: And then, you know, that we went further with that. The unseen is gonna  leave you to what you said. I feel alone that's a bad place to be. So then you get  angry, right? And the anger is the sarcasm. And I wanna know like, what is that  anger trying to say there that you're not able to say?  

    Brian: I guess it's antagonistic, I guess.  

    Brian: Uh, I mean it's sort of like an eye for an eye. Like if she's gotten me  okay around to think like that, then I'm gonna say something off the wall. Okay.  That's gonna rattle her up.  

    Julie: It's kinda like, it's kind of like, if you're gonna hurt me, I'm gonna hurt  you.  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah. So,  

    Julie: okay.  

    Julie: And tell me about the hurt though.  

    Julie: I [00:57:00] wanna know a little bit more about the hurt, because that's  what the sarcasms trying to do. It's trying to show her this hurts, this hurts me.  And then everything derails because sarcasm is no healthy way to deal with 

    hurt, especially, you know, it might be in a lighter situation, you know, I'm not  saying sarcasm is the end of the world in every context, but in this issue when  we've got all this emotional energy on the table.  

    Julie: Sarcasm isn't really a healthy way to communicate what you're feeling.  Does it feel like, look, if I really started to say, look, I feel alone right now if  this is a, when I go to misunderstood, like she might not respond to that.  

    Brian: It's not that I don't think she'll respond, especially like since we've been  doing these sessions, but, you know, I does, does everything need to be broken  down into like, okay, time out, this is how I'm feeling? [00:58:00]  

    Julie: Well, you've got, you've got two options. One is to keep, if, if there's the  trigger is enough, you clearly were triggered, right?  

    Julie: So there's, there's three options here. One option is, is to just do the  sarcasm. And you can expect, you can be reasonably certain that that sarcasm is  gonna trigger her. 'cause she's in her place too. And then she's gonna go into her  whatever, and then you're gonna be in a cycle. Sarcasm is not, you know, I  would like to see her maybe handle that in a different way, but right now where  you guys are, you're just triggering each other.  

    Julie: Or you can just ignore it, pushed under the rug and not talk about what  happened. And it'll just keep coming up. You're still gonna find yourself feeling  less than in another situation and the next time, or we can decide, hey, this is a  moment where our nervous systems got activated. Maybe there's some value in  pulling back and talking about this on a deeper issue.  

    Julie: What I trust is that when couples start doing that, they work themselves  out of a job. They don't need to [00:59:00] do it as much. Maybe they do it the  beginning, but So I need to figure out what's key. Just again, I'm working with  you right now. I need to figure out what's blocking you from going into  

    vulnerable, going into authentic, going into direct, and not going into sarcasm.  

    Julie: And so what you're saying to me is you, you said a lot of important  things. You said, I feel alone. I feel. You know, um, I get angry that that anger is  that tension in my body saying, this isn't how I want it to be. I don't wanna feel  less than I hurt. This hurts bad. And so the way I'm, my, my nervous system  trusts sarcasm to, to communicate that hurt.  

    Julie: Like you said it. If you're gonna hurt me, I'm gonna hurt you. 

    Brian: Yeah. I mean, I think in the bigger picture of things, you know, as we're  going through these sessions, like I feel less than I feel, you know, my feelings  are always [01:00:00] pushed under the rug, or, you know, we find a new topic  to, to discuss and it's just like, I keep putting myself out there just to  

    continuously get hurt by her.  

    Brian: Okay.  

    Julie: So what do you, so, so what you're saying is like, I don't really trust  doing anything new as in this moment is gonna help us. It doesn't really, it's,  you know, what do you think might happen if you did something new? If you  decided to be a little more clear about what just happened for you, or kind of go  into that co-regulating place, are you afraid that she would say like, she would  reject you or just appease you?  

    Julie: And then we, it happened again?  

    Brian: I would think that she would appease me and then it would happen  again.  

    Julie: Okay. So you're not really trusting there's gonna be any change here,  right? Like, you don't see a lot of value in the, the vulnerability.  

    Brian: I mean, [01:01:00] I have in, in some of our exercises that we worked  out through the, through the day, you know, and it's, I don't know if it's just like  that we don't, you know, we're so far, so early in the sessions that we haven't  really, we're.  

    Brian: We're just sort of looking at the tools, we're touching them. Well, we're  not putting them into action.  

    Julie: Right. And that's exactly why I am trying to figure out, my job is to  figure out what's blocking it. And something big happens for you, you both  block it. But I'm, again, I'm working with you right now. I'll talk to her about  why she blocks it, but I need to understand, we need to be really clear about  why sarcasm is the safest thing.  

    Julie: How are you gonna feel if it happens again, if once again, I find myself  back in less than  

    Brian: sad. 

    Julie: Okay.  

    Julie: Like, even worse, because [01:02:00]  

    Brian: like en enraged, like, I mean, I, I'm, I know like, like in my body, like  when I see that, like my goal, my jaw clench and I just like,  

    Brian: .  

    Brian: I get this, like, that feeling where it's just like I'm, I'm about to be in a  fight. You know what I mean? But, but I don't necessarily want to be in a fight,  but it's like I have to stand up for myself and,  

    Julie: okay.  

    Julie: And, and so if you have to stand up for yourself, what does that make her  Brian: in the situation? .  

    Brian: Uh, the aggressor.  

    Julie: Okay. And so that's, that's the narrative, right? It's like she becomes this  aggressor so fast, and if she is the aggressor, then it certainly makes sense to  me. You know why your body goes into attack back. [01:03:00]  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Tell me more, tell me more about seeing her as the aggressor.  

    Julie: What if she is the aggressor? What if she is really just, you know, kind of  out to get you that, that's where we go back to a lot of the times is she's just kind  of out to get me.  

    Brian: Yeah. I don't know. I, she's just so, I don't, I feel like I, um, I'm always  getting one up or, you know, it's, it's just, it's a very frustrating, constant  negative cycle.  

    Julie: Yeah. So I wanna know a little bit more about what's under that  frustration. 

    Brian: Uh, I, I guess I just want to be viewed for, you know, the positive things  that I do. I do. Um, a lot of the, these issues I don't feel viewed as, as positive.  It's, I, I feel like I, I manhandle a [01:04:00] lot. And, you know, sometimes we  get into these competitions about what we do or what we bring to the table, and  it's, and it's just like, I constantly feel like it's just, I'm never achieving like this  status, you know, like it's, it goes into like relationships between her and her  family and it's like, like this benchmark, and I'm compared all the time to them  where it's, I, I feel like I'm better than in certain check boxes, but I'm told that,  I'm like, those don't really matter.  

    Brian: Those are like preseason games. Like they don't count. Like it's just,  

    Julie: does this ever happen, you know, not just in this relationship, but outside  of here where it seems like you're always kind of trying to compare [01:05:00] favorably. In life?  

    Brian: No, I'm very content with who I am. Okay. You know, I, I, I feel, I feel  I've, I'm very proud of myself and, and my accomplishments. I, I've, a lot of  people say I have too much self-esteem, but,  

    Julie: all right, so you're used to feeling pretty good about yourself and then  you get into this relationship and all of a sudden you're, it feels like you're just  constantly being cut down and told what you're getting wrong and not  comparing well enough to other people in her life and seen as less than her.  

    Julie: Like that that's a bad place.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. And again, like where does that leave you? Is that a lonely place?  Is that a.  

    Brian: I mean, it's, it's lonely in the sense of my [01:06:00] relationship with  her. Um, although, like altogether I don't feel alone.  

    Julie: No, I mean like in the relationship, like that takes you into a place of  disconnection, right? When you know, you kind of have this baseline idea that  that's the case, right?  

    Julie: You guys have had these interactions and, you know, I think it's probably  more negative cycles that have kind of led to this belief. I don't fully, I mean, I, I  don't get the idea that Bethany is kind of trying to make you feel less than, I 

    think probably there's cycles here where you guys are behaving in ways that are  communicating these scary things to each other, but I'm not sure that that's  actually where her heart is.  

    Julie: But regardless, somehow we got to this baseline belief that she sees you  as less than not enough incompetent, inept. Every time that gets triggered, it  takes you to a place of disconnection. [01:07:00]  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: And then your body says, this isn't how I want it to be. I don't wanna be  in a relationship where I feel bad all the time and I feel down all the time.  

    Julie: And then that pressure builds up and that anger says, do something,  communicate to her. Get, get her attention around this. I gotta, I gotta, I'm  hurting, I'm hurting so bad, I gotta make her hurt too. So she'll see how much  I'm hurting. Like, I don't really believe that your, your heart is okay now I've  gotta make her hurt.  

    Julie: Like just randomly. I just wanna be sarcastic and callous and for no good  reason.  

    Brian: No,  

    Brian: no.  

    Julie: Okay. But, but I think that's my, maybe what she's seeing. 'cause we're  not really talking about any of the other stuff and you just share with her right  now that sarcastic place is my way of trying to communicate to you how hurt I  am.  

    Julie: I do do that.  

    Brian: Yeah. I'm definitely guilty of being sarcastic [01:08:00] to display my  hurt in the situation.  

    Julie: Okay. I appreciate that. And what, what is it like just to, you know, be  clear, be a little more clear?  

    Brian: Probably something that's, I guess always in the back of my mind is  probably the right thing to do. 

    Julie: Okay. So I, I, I, I agree with that. I mean, I think there's a few options of  what could be more helpful in this situation, but you're doing it right now, right?  You're doing it, you're not being sarcastic, you're not staying in that place where  you're like, Hey, how can we just change Bethany? You're actually saying, no, I  do do this thing That is part of our cycle, and it's really just trying to  communicate how hurt I am.  

    Julie: That's, that's the work.  

    Julie: You know, there are people who would come in here and they would say,  no, sorry, I don't, I'm not willing to do that. They need to change, they've gotta  do the change. And then [01:09:00] maybe one day I can start being vulnerable.  But you're not doing that, you're, you're, you're staying with me here? Yeah.  Okay. And does that feel true to you, what you said  

    Brian: about being guilty?  

    Brian: Of, of being sarcastic?  

    Julie: Yeah. But less about the, the being guilty. I mean, that, that's, there's, you  know, truth to that, but more about what you're trying to communicate. You're  trying to communicate the hurt.  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah.  

    Julie: She doesn't  

    Julie: see the hurt. She doesn't get to see it. When we're in our, like protective  cycle moves.  

    Julie: We're not showing each other that. Now, if you were to tell me, if you  were to come back next week and say, look, I did that Julie, and all she did was  mock me in or just reject me or just, you know, told me what I wanna hear, and  I could tell, then I would need to go over there and, okay. Help me understand  Bethany, like why you weren't able to receive that in a way that was kind of  reinforcing your new moves over here.  

    Julie: But first we have to start with [01:10:00] somebody just doing a new  move and you just did it. And so let me check it out with her. Like, how is this  for you, Bethany? Is this, you know, kind of illuminating for you in any way?  Does any of this feel new to you? 

    Bethany: The hurt part is new in that I, I know that he uses sarcasm.  

    Bethany: I, I always take it when he is mad or irritated with me. So to hear hurt  associated with it versus mad or annoyed or aggravated or irritated. Sits well  with me. Um, and it, and it's, and it is good to hear him put words to that.  

    Julie: Okay. All right. So just, just, you know, tell him, you know, that does  land on me in a new way.  

    Julie: It does help me see you more clearly.  

    Bethany: I was gonna add a, but, but I don't think you're gonna let me,  Bethany: so,  

    Julie: well, no, we're gonna go into why you're needing to add that, but here  [01:11:00] in a minute.  

    Bethany: Okay. Um,  

    Bethany: it feels good to hear you say that the sarcasm is hurt because the way  in which you do it,  

    Bethany: I have always seen as you've been angry, annoyed, aggravated,  irritated. And I think you've used out those words before when I've asked you  why are you responding in this way?  

    Julie: All right. Let me,  

    Julie: let me jump in here. But I appreciate the hurt. Yeah, because he is angry  and irritated. That's all real.  

    Bethany: And I'm  

    Bethany: empathetic.  

    Bethany: I'm empathetic to that hurt.  

    Bethany: I am. 

    Julie: Right. We need to start seeing more layers of each other in these  moments. Okay, here, let me, let me jump in here. Bethany, I think what's  happening is this, he's being vulnerable, right? It was hard to get him there to  really getting down below that his, he's used to just wanting to stay in the  protective place, right?  

    Julie: And so what happens for you is you're over here [01:12:00] going, yeah,  like that. You know, that is nice. But then this butt comes so fast, right? We're  not really kind of staying with him for very long. I think you both do that to  each other, but I need to understand like what's keeping you from not switching  the topic so quickly.  

    Julie: Not go. 'cause what happens is, is remember last time I said we've got our  attachment hat and we've got our caregiving hat, right? And attachment hat is  the person who's in need, and the caregiving hat is the person who's just gonna  be available. But we can't just like go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then switch so fast.  

    Julie: That's not caregiving, that's not allowing enough space. So what  happens? What's the very good reason that you wanna shift out so quickly?  

    Bethany: It's not that I don't wanna give him that caregiving space, but there's  so much sarcasm that clearly I know is hurt. That happens so often and in ways  when I truly don't feel that I am [01:13:00] attacking in any way.  

    Bethany: So like if I get the opportunity to at some point to share like the baby  monitor situation, like. The way he just fired off with the sarcasm and my  response to that. And then there was so much more after that. So like that's,  that's where the but comes in because I don't think that I've said anything that  was so triggering to warrant that response.  

    Bethany: And so I felt like, what, where is this coming from? Okay. All right.  So if you don't, that's where the, but, and it's not that I don't wanna sit with that  because I wanna care for him. I wanna be there for him.  

    Julie: Yeah. But so it's a timing issue, right? Like I, it's a timing issue. Like I do  want you to be able to have space to share what was happening for you and to  share about how hard, it's so hurtful for you to be on the other end of sarcasm.  

    Julie: It feels bad. Like you need to have space to put some words to that also.  But what happens is, here I go again here. I mean, I'm sorry, here I go doing the,  but, [01:14:00] but what happens is, is is you leave him to go to do it, right? 

    And regardless of. What about it is triggering? I mean, it's still a trigger. It's  there are, there are still good reasons.  

    Julie: I trust that he has good reasons in this relationship for going to a place  where he feels less than somehow this cycle communicates that. Right. I don't  really think he's just making it up out of thin air. Just like you have good reasons  to believe that sometimes you get put in this box of the aggressor that you don't  really doesn't feel good for you.  

    Julie: Okay. So. That hurt. Blocks you, your stuff blocks you from staying with  his stuff. Alright, Julie, here, so before I check out how this landed with  Bethany, I just wanna say that there are many more layers to what's going on  with Brian around this trigger with the baby monitor and I, I just took one bite  of it.  

    Julie: Okay. There. This is why [01:15:00] this work takes a bit because there's,  there's layers to unpack. But, you know, I, I, right now this bite for me was just  making it really clear to both Bethany and Brian that the sarcasm is trying to  communicate hurt. Because neither of them were super clear about that when  we started.  

    Julie: That's why this work has so many reps, because every time we do a rep  of the same process, uh, it, it gets more embedded into them and they remember  more what's going on, so they can access that quickly in these hard moments  outside. That happens so fast that no one even has time to think. That's why I  have to slow it all down in here and really pick it apart.  

    Julie: So when they're crystal clear about this, Brian is gonna come in not  having to have a 30 minute conversation with me about what happened. He's  gonna be immediately able to say, I did that thing again where I tried to manage  my pain around feeling less than with just sarcasm. And if he isn't able to  quickly see and say this, he's not [01:16:00] ready to go to the deeper work with  it.  

    Julie: So I needed to get that clear. And I'm always just kind of trying to find  this balance between keeping the emotional work alive, but not going too deep  too soon before they're able to really just organize their cycle and see the  pattern. And when a couple can't organize their cycle, um, then they're feelings  that they're, we might be getting to all these feelings, but they're, they're not  organized and they're not put into a context that makes sense that the cycle is  the context that makes it all make sense. 

    Julie: Then on the other hand, if we only cognitively understand the cycle  without feeling the emotions, then we don't get empathy and bonding. So I'm  always just trying to do both. Um, and then as we, you know, as a couple's cycle  gets stabilized throughout the therapy, um, that's when we can go to deeper and  deeper levels of the work, or we just have so much more empathy and bonding,  gaining momentum because we don't have the cycle or lack of clarity [01:17:00] around the cycle coming in and blocking all that.  

    Julie: So for those of you who might be wondering, what are the other layers  here with Brian? Well, so every single trigger for every single partner represents  an unmet attachment need and every single unmet attachment need. Has  multiple layers to it that need attention. So Brian gets this message that Bethany  just thinks he's, you know, he gets the message.  

    Julie: She just thinks he is this kind of deadbeat ex-con, like he said, that can't  be trusted. Um, and again, that doesn't mean that was her intention, but that's the  message that lands for him. And then we determine that there's pain here  because that's what the sarcasm was trying to communicate pain. But what's the  pain?  

    Julie: Pain is a vague word. So more specifically, it hurts to feel unseen and just  like you're this incompetent loser in your wife's size. Not that that's the truth,  but that's what the negative cycle was saying. And that's a sad, lonely, dejected  place [01:18:00] for anyone. So there's another layer we need to name and feel  and share.  

    Julie: And then there's the fear of the future, consequences of being seen as just  incompetent. It's not just seen as just being seen as incompetent. That's the  problem. It's where does this go? He'll just always feel unseen and alone and,  and maybe he, if he's just incompetent, his needs won't get taken seriously and  he'll just be invisible.  

    Julie: And then how will that feel? Awful. Defeated. Invisible. Worthless.  Nobody wants to go there. So that brings up fear, and that's another layer that  we need to feel and name and share. And then the fear and P and and pain create  all these uncomfortable bodily sensations which need to be noticed and felt and  listened to.  

    Julie: And then we have another layer. And then the next layer, shame anyone.  Can make sense of their painful feelings as it just being their partner's fault. 

    Julie: And then we have another [01:19:00] layer of shame. Anyone can make  sense of their painful feelings as as it being their partner's fault. And there's  always some truth to that. But there's also this other voice that people carry  around that comes in and says, but what about me keeps ending up in this  rejected, painful place?  

    Julie: Why do I keep failing no matter how hard I try? Or what is so broken  about me that here I am again hurting? And then the feeling tied to that place is  shame. And that needs to be talked about. So we can do new things with all of  the stuff instead of just continuing to act it out in these negative cycles.  

    Julie: And then we have another layer on top of all that. What, what part of this  pain is not from his relationship with Bethany at all, but from his childhood  before that it's always some of both. So we have some childhood healing to do  here, and it's not just his work, but to also invite Bethany in to help him with  those old childhood hurts, because who wants to have to be alone with that  stuff?  

    Julie: So I just [01:20:00] wanna say, when we're talking about bites and  triggers, the triggers only matter so much as they get us into the layers of the  pain. That's why we don't have to spend time processing every single little  trigger that happens at home or even here in the session. We just need to use the  triggers we have and the ones we grab onto and the ones we use as our mission  to get us into those pain layers so we can do the healing there.  

    Julie: Alright, well, let's see how Bethany responds to this. Okay, so now we're  gonna go into what's it like for you to feel like you're being like, I don't know,  falsely accused, or  

    Bethany: I would. I don't know, falsely accused, like if, if we're sticking with  the, with the baby monitor thing. I, I even like when he was talking, I went back  to look at, at the text messages and I just said, is she sleeping?  

    Bethany: And he said, no, she's doing jumping jacks. And I said, oh my, okay.  Goodnight. I love you. And, and that was it. And then he fired off all of this  [01:21:00] stuff and I just ended it with like, oh my, okay. You know, I knew  that there had been a sleepover year with older girls, so I figured maybe she was  up playing with them and I just said, oh my.  

    Bethany: 'cause it was almost 11. Okay. Goodnight and I love you. And that's  how I left it. 

    Julie: Um, okay. So it doesn't, it does not make any sense to you whatsoever  that this took him to a place or he goes into, here we go again.  

    Bethany: No, he was like, you don't have to be my mother. You don't  Bethany: have to care about what I'm doing here.  

    Bethany: This is my house. I'll do what I want. And I  

    Julie: Right. So just like, it's hard for him to kind of step in and go, all right,  you know. Um, what's maybe going on with Bethany? You know, this is hard  for her. Yeah. I might be getting triggered here, but at the same time, she's had a  hard time and I wanna kind of put my stuff to the side and show up for her just  here and now when he's sharing a little more about what happens for him and he  gets vulnerable about the hurt, then your body goes into, [01:22:00] well, he  shouldn't have been hurt to begin with because that's not what I was intending to  happen.  

    Julie: And there's truth there. Again, I wanna deal with that. It's just, we can  only do one hurt at a time.  

    Bethany: Right, right, right.  

    Julie: We can both be hurting at the same time, but we can only attend to one  person's hurt at a time. And so does this happen in the cycle where he might  express his hurt and then you go into, that wasn't my intention.  

    Julie: Kind of like with the text or with the, when you guys were making the  appointment or, you know, any, any time he's brought up something that  triggered him. Your, your go-to is to, to explain why you weren't intentionally  triggering him. Yes. Okay. And do you see that maybe that's not always the most  useful thing to lead with?  

    Julie: Yes. Because not only are you not attending to his emotions, but you're  also not sharing anything about yours. Right. And so [01:23:00] what I should  have said, which I didn't, well, let's not talk about what you should have said.  

    We can get there. Okay. Let's talk about why your body trusts explaining  yourself before we deal with, I mean, before we just deal with the emotional  stuff first and soothe each other, co-regulate what I'm describing as co regulation. 

    Julie: Okay. You guys don't go there. Right. You don't, that's not your go-to.  And no couple comes to me with that being their go-to. So my job isn't to judge  that. It's just to say, Hey, would you guys like in these moments when you're  triggered to co-regulate each other instead of dysregulate each other further?  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. So let's talk about then what blocks you, we know what blocks  him. He gets blocked when he goes into, I feel like I'm being talked down to,  again, I'm less than and you know, I kind of sense that she might be in that  negative cycle place where I get these messages that I'm a loser or whatever,  and then [01:24:00] that hurts me.  

    Julie: I feel alone I, that's a place of disconnection. I hurt there. It's a hurtful  place. And then so I go into sarcasm as a way to say, Hey, it hurts. It hurts.  Because it doesn't sound like if he is vulnerable, the cycle can quite hold it yet.  Because even if he is vulnerable, the response he is gonna get isn't, oh my gosh,  tell me more.  

    Julie: It's gonna be, you're wrong for feeling that way because that's not what,  what I was  

    Julie: trying to do.  

    Julie: Make sense?  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay.  

    Julie: So again, like, sorry, I'm probably being a little repetitive here, but I'm  trying to drive the point home. So let's talk about then why that feels like the  safest thing for you to do. 'cause I don't want him to go into sarcasm and I don't  want you to go into defensiveness, right? I want someone to co-regulate here.  

    Bethany: Um,[01:25:00]  

    Bethany: I guess I think that. If I were able to explain myself or my intent, then  he would see it from a different perspective and understand that that place  wasn't, wasn't harmful, wasn't condescending, it wasn't, it wasn't anything. It  was in that particular moment. It was a simple question and then a period at the  end of the sentence. 

    Bethany: And I, I wasn't harping on, on anything. Um, but I think, um, like in,  in what I do, and maybe this is part of it too, but like in what I do for part of my  job or my career is my job when I'm doing investigations is to always get that  person's side of the story. Okay. And so I feel like, like I can't make a  determination in what I do for a living before.  

    Bethany: I have both pieces. And so I feel like. In this situation, like there's,  you know, [01:26:00] the, the complainant and the respondent, and I have to  hear both sides of the story before I can make a determination. And I feel like  by, by sharing my side of the story, that would help him to be able to make a  determination.  

    Julie: All right, so  

    Julie: this, this makes sense to me. That's, that's the way that you have been  successfully navigating these interpersonal things, right? Right. But then you  get into this relationship and we've got all this emotional stuff that's happened  between you and he gets dysregulated. And again, it's, it's, there's a lot of history  here.  

    Julie: Right? And so his nervous system isn't open to that explanation yet. We  might be able to get there, but first we have to deal with this emotional piece.  And so again, the, the ex, the explaining is the way that you've kind of know  that's what you know to do this stuff,  

    Bethany: right.  

    Julie: Right.[01:27:00]  

    Julie: What happens if you, if you don't explain, if instead you were able to  kind of go, okay, hold on, tell me more what's happening right now? Just like if  he did the same for you, when you, you first bring a trigger to him, what are you  afraid might happen?  

    Bethany: I don't know if I'm a, I'm afraid anything would happen.  

    Bethany: I think he explains embedded in the sarcasm why these things bother  him and they come out in some way. I, in some ways I can read between the  lines. Um,  

    Bethany: and I, I probably don't let it resonate with me long enough to think  that, okay, this goes back for so very long for how he's feeling. Why are you 

    mothering me? I'm not, you know, I'm perfectly capable, blah, blah, blah. So I  think I, [01:28:00] I, I don't let it go. I'm, I'm looking at the immediate Right.  Versus putting together the whole  

    Bethany: equation.  

    Julie: Right. So, so then that's understandable that you would, you know, your,  your response would be more about the immediate instead of kind of  understanding more about the, his, his feelings in the context of this bigger  thing. And like, did anybody, you know, in your life, when you've been in  emotional pain, has anybody ever stopped to kind of say, okay, hold on, let, let  me understand what's going on with you?  

    Julie: Or did you always just get, like, logically walking you through your  feelings?  

    Bethany: Um, I don't, I don't know.  

    Bethany: I don't know if I was like an EM emotional train wreck as a teenager.  Um, like I don't [01:29:00] remember ever having those conversations, but I'm  not saying that they happened one way or the other.  

    Julie: Okay. But how, let me just ask you this then. How do you deal with your  painful emotions? You're just used to doing kind of what you do to him, which  is explaining them away.  

    Julie: Let's not feel that, let's kind of move away from those feelings. Let's be  strong.  

    Bethany: Yeah, I think that's probably how I deal with them for the most part.  

    Julie: So when you are in explaining mode to him, you're trying, you know,  there's no ill and ill will here bad intentions here at all. You're just kind of trying  to help him deal with it. Like you deal with your own feelings, which is you  need to just see this differently and feel different. That does, that's worked for  you, right?  

    Julie: That's been your strategy to deal with your own feelings.  

    Julie: So [01:30:00] doesn't it make sense that that's kind the messages that you  send him? 

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: And so maybe, maybe that's what could be helpful to share right now is,  you know, my, my whole life I've dealt with my feelings by sort of talking  myself down. And  

    Julie: yes, I do go there with you too.  

    Julie: Well, not  

    Julie: only that, I mean, if you wanna add this in, but you've also, your whole  job is designed to be reasonable with someone and, uh, get to the, get the facts  straight, right? Very much so. There's nothing wrong with all that. It's just in  these moments when the nervous systems are escalated, that kind of stuff just  doesn't land.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Bethany: I've learned that after being married to him for, for so long, it, it  doesn't land like that, and that's [01:31:00] truly the only or best way that I've  known to navigate.  

    Julie: It doesn't land with you either, though. It doesn't land with either of you.  Bethany: Right, right.  

    Julie: Because even if you did show up in the most vulnerable way possible,  you're not able to receive that because then you go to your own version of  dysregulation, which is not feeling seen and understood and you know,  misinterpreted.  

    Julie: You see how both of you aren't being vulnerable and co-regulating there.  Yeah. Okay. So that's what I want you to, we, we know more about his sarcasm,  why that's his safe place. That's the only way he knows right now in this cycle,  

    to somehow get the herd across. And now we need for him to understand why  you have a block too here, which is, I've been, my whole life, I've, I've  somehow, along the way learned how to manage my, my emotions by making  them go away.  

    Julie: And I, I see, I do do [01:32:00] that to you 

    Bethany: My whole life, I've managed to manage my emotions by making them  go away. And I see that I, I do that to you,  

    Bethany: not just in this instance, but the other ones. When you said, you look  at me like I'm, you know, lifeless and I have no emotion,  

    Julie: how does it,  

    Julie: how does it feel? Just, you know, listen, I don't know where he's at. I can't  really read it. I'm gonna check it out. But just to put words to that, does it at  least feel true for you?  

    Bethany: Yeah, because  

    Bethany: it makes sense because he, when he says that, he looks at me and I  look like I have no emotion, that's likely why I just make them go away.  

    Julie: Right. And that's just the way that you've learned to regulate. He's learned  to regulate by somehow sending messages to get [01:33:00] you to do  something differently. You've been, you know, your version of that is regulate  by just kind of pushing it away altogether. You're not saying, Brian, I need you  to do this differently.  

    Julie: You're just going, you know, trying to, trying to do what you do to you  again, which is just convince yourself to stop feeling that way. It's not you being  bad, it's not you trying to ignore him or trying to send messages that, you know,  you're just completely shut down to him. That's what it can look like though,  right?  

    Julie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and Brian, how's this hitting you?  Brian: I mean, it's pretty true.  

    Julie: Do you see a little bit more, are you understanding a little bit more about  why that's her safe place?  

    Brian: Yeah, but I, I just don't see the results, you know, like, uh, like if  [01:34:00] I'm, if I'm her, I don't, it just seems like if you never deal with it, like  how does it ever get fixed? And, and, and it's in a sense, okay.  

    Julie: Hold on. Hold on one sec. Hold on one sec. I'm gonna come back, right  back to that. But Bethany, look, you did a great job. You were vulnerable. I 

    appreciate that. You did exactly what I need you to do in here. Something's  coming up and I'm gonna go check it out over here. Are we good? Okay. So  Brian, I, I like kind of like what happened on her end.  

    Julie: Like I got her to vulnerable. I got her out of that place where she's just  trying to convince you and to share a little bit more about what's going on. But  you are not really kind of seeing the value in why she goes into that pro  protective place. You can see the value in your sarcasm, right? You're having a  hard time staying with her vulnerability right now.  

    Julie: What's going on? What  

    Julie: blocks that?  

    Brian: I'm just trying to put myself in her shoes as, as like how she,[01:35:00]  

    Brian: you know, pushes those emotions away and, and eventually like  something new pops up and then it's like, then you just deal with that and then,  then I guess,  

    Julie: right. And I want her, you know, part of her self work is to be able to do  some new things here and start to manage her own emotions in new ways that  feel, that are, that are different that she's never learned.  

    Julie: Right? But, but the other part of it is that if she's gonna be doing those  new things in this cycle, then if you're not able to receive that. That's just gonna,  you know, make more, her more likely to go back into her old move. So I need  to get you open in, in a way that right here and now you, you're able to say, you  know what?  

    Julie: That makes so much sense to me. I get it. This has been your way of  regulating it. Makes sense. I don't like it. I don't want us to stay there. But I do  understand you right now. So what's blocking that? Because just like she did,  you're going, you're just leaving her and going right into you. [01:36:00]  

    Brian: No, no. I, I was actually sort of agreeing with, with, uh, you, 'cause it, it,  you talking through this is just sort of like how I feel from my perspective, like  our relationship goes is this, is like, I just, I get rid of the emotions by not  dealing with them and then like something new happens, so then, then we can  pack that away. 

    Brian: And that's sort of how. Like, it makes sense to me as to why I feel like  I'm just laying in what happened on Tuesday and what happened last month and  all the past stuff is because we never deal with them. Something new happens.  Like, you know, we had our sessions last week and then,  

    Julie: hold on, hold on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something here.  

    Julie: I'm gonna pop back over here to Bethany. Bethany, did you feel held in  that place where you shared with him?  

    Bethany: No, but I [01:37:00] didn't expect too much on that one. I didn't, I  didn't expect for him to have a whole lot to say about it.  

    Julie: Okay. Well, I would it have been nice if he would've just looked at you,  you know, with openness and said, Hey, you know, I get you, you make sense to  me.  

    Bethany: Yeah, that would've been nice and,  

    Bethany: and I realize I probably didn't do.  

    Julie: Well, that's right. So my job is, but I, my job is to highlight what's going,  what's happening that we can do, do differently. Right. I am, my perception was  that, Brian, you moved away from her. I don't think you did on purpose. If you  don't really believe that, fine. We'll talk more. But, so I checked in with Bethany  because I need, if people are gonna be vulnerable, I need for the other partner to  stay with them.  

    Julie: Look at them eye contact. You make sense to me. I get you. I see you  right now. Thank you for [01:38:00] sharing with me. Because you are just used  to saying, Hey, Brian, here's why you're seeing it wrong. Here's why you're  seeing it wrong, and it feels really good to me that you're able to own that  pattern. So maybe we can move out of this and do new things that didn't  happen.  

    Julie: Right. How would that have landed for you, Bethany?  

    Bethany: It would've, it would've landed. Really good. It would've been really  good in the times that he has acknowledged things, like if he's acknowledged  things and has apologized for things, it feels so good to me, and several times  that's happened lately. So it, it does feel really, really good when those things,  when it's acknowledged. 

    Julie: Okay, great. So he does do that sometimes, Brian, this doesn't define you  in the relationship. You're not doing anything wrong if you already were doing  all this stuff perfectly every step of the way, guys, you wouldn't have to be here.  

    Bethany: Right, right.  

    Julie: Okay. So Brian, just help me understand if, if the gold standard is what I,  how I [01:39:00] just, you know, did the little script.  

    Julie: I just did. You, you didn't, I didn't see eye contact. I just kind of saw you  go, I don't know, give maybe a little bit of, of acknowledgement to what she did,  but then somehow we got on this other path to, this reminds me of how I feel.  We, we shifted into you. Okay.  

    Brian: No, no, I, I mean maybe it came off that way, but in my, maybe I just  didn't articulate it well enough, but it made me actually see like the, the path  that how you were digging this out of her.  

    Brian: Like, oh, now this is why she does this. And it made sense to me as to  like, why we keep getting in these negative cycles. I wasn't like invalidating  what she said it, I, it totally made sense to me. And  

    Julie: all right, then let's do this. Let's just do this. Let's just make a positive  moment here. Just turn to her and say, you know what?  

    Julie: Thank you for sharing that. We'll give her some eye contact. Hold that a  little bit [01:40:00] more.  

    Brian: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.  

    Julie: There we go.  

    Brian: It, it made, it made a lot more sense to me. Um, you know, how, how  you. Handle, have handled things in the past and it it, it just becomes more clear  from your perspective.  

    Julie: Thank you. There you go. That's that. That's, that's helpful. And, and  Bethany, are you able to take that in? Does that feel a little, okay. Do you notice  a difference in your nervous system when you get a little more of that positive  feedback?  

    Bethany: Yeah. 

    Julie: What happens in your body when you get that positive feedback?  Bethany: Soft, not tense.  

    Julie: Okay. All right. So Brian, you just did it. You just did some co-regulating.  All right. Now let's kind of go back in, back into what you're saying. Tell me  these important things that you're saying. Um, on top of just being there with  her for a minute.  

    Brian: Um, [01:41:00] where was I at?  

    Julie: I wasn't a hundred percent following 'cause I was so hyperfocused on  giving her a little more love in that moment.  

    Brian: Yeah. And I, I think I was trying to, to do so, um, and I, and I'm, as I was  listening to you, you know, extract this from her and it became clear like the, the  reasons as to why we continue on in these negative cycles is because she has her  perspective of it, but is not outwardly sharing what that is for me.  

    Brian: So then we just, we either go opposite directions or we continue to stay,  you know, in the ring, you know, fighting with each other.  

    Brian: And, and I  

    Brian: don't know, it just, it just sort of seems like, um, you know, like how,  [01:42:00] how the process works and not this work. It's just her thinking and  you know, where it goes to. So it was, it was more. Clear and defining for me.  

    Julie: Okay. I see. All right. I understand. So  

    Julie: you were trying, you were trying to kind of tell me about the clarity Yeah.  As a way of supporting her.  

    Brian: Yeah. It wasn't attacking her. It was, it was, you just sort of explain to  me like step by step how an engine works or something like that. Like, you  know, you could call the jargon, but until you slow it down for me, like I was  like, oh, well if she just doesn't deal with it, okay, then that's where we were last  week and then that's why I didn't, or I felt this way, or she felt that way, or how  it continued on.  

    Julie: [01:43:00] Yeah. 

    Brian: It's because of those reasons and now that you bring awareness to it. Of  maybe try, try this, this other fork in the road. It probably wouldn't net greater  benefits than, at least for me. 'cause like you, as you're saying this and, and  pulling it out of her, I'm like, I would definitely respond better to it in that  situation if it was presented that way.  

    Brian: But it's not  

    Julie: exactly When we're in these negative cycles, all we're presenting is the  surface level protections. Exactly.  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I and so I really get it.  

    Julie: Yeah. So I really appreciate you saying that, you know, um, I think, you  know, going back, um, had I given you a little more space to kind of clarify that,  then I would've understood a little bit more.  

    Julie: Um, I still, you know, um, just to kind of. I don't know what I'm trying to  say. First of [01:44:00] all, I apologize for not letting you go longer. Second of  all, my hope is that you guys can really hold each other. So if nothing else, I  hope that we got something out of that experience of just really making that eye  contact.  

    Julie: I want these positive cycles to be really explicit right outside of here.  Like when someone is vulnerable, Brian, when you're talking about, you know,  this isn't that moment where I wanna go into that sarcastic place, but I don't  wanna do that and I'm just hurting right now. I want her to be able to go, oh my  God, thank you so much for sharing that.  

    Julie: Let's just kind of hold each other. Let's try to create some safety here and  go forward. Or if Bethany, you're like, you know what? I know something's be  coming up for you. This is clearly you're in a lot of pain. Some, this is that place  where you're getting hurt and I'm wanting to go into just kind of telling you all  the facts of where I was so you won't feel hurt anymore.  

    Julie: But I know that's not gonna get us anywhere. Brian, I want you to be able  to look at her and go, oh my gosh, thank you so much. Right. Look at us  meeting [01:45:00] each other. Does that make sense?  

    Brian: Yeah. 'cause like, as you're explaining it, it's, it's like when she goes into  telling me all that stuff, it's basically like, here, here's my emotions. 

    Brian: Let's push those to the side and let's just tell you one through 10.  Julie: Exactly.  

    Brian: That doesn't sit well with me.  

    Julie: No. And, and then, you know, if I'm just gonna kind of drive this point  home of this cycle, it's like you go into sarcasm, which doesn't sit well with her,  and then she goes into your explaining, which doesn't sit well with you, and  then you guys are both, instead of co-regulating, you're just dysregulating and  here's the deal.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Even if this relationship doesn't work, and, you know, I'm hopeful, I'm  hopeful, but even if it doesn't, and you guys go onto another relationship, like  these are the, the skills no matter what. Right?  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah, I, and I've, I've shared with her that like, I've been able to  identify those things. [01:46:00] It's just we haven't been able to mesh them.  

    Brian: Like I've noticed it in the way I, I parent or deal with employees and  stuff like that, that there's o other driving forces as to why they said this or, or  acted out like this. And you can sense that there's something else behind there.  So you just sort of stop and dissect that a little bit. 'cause that little dissection  ends up spreading into a way bigger, um, clearer moment if, if somebody can  tell you their real feelings surrounding it.  

    Julie: Yeah, absolutely. That was well stated. It's easier when it's your, your  child, you know, it's easier when it's your, your employees and then, you know,  we get into this zone where love has different expectations. Right. Yeah. Yeah.  It just tells me how much more emotional, how important emotional connection  is to the two of you and how [01:47:00] valuable the relationship still is.  

    Julie: Yeah. That shows there's still investment here.  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Like one particular, um, experience I had with it was, was  Thanksgiving Day. Like it was just me and my older daughter, and she was  decorating her tree by herself. And I came in and said, you know, are you okay?  And she said, yes twice. And I said, it's okay to not be okay.  

    Julie: Aw. 

    Brian: Because I could see something that was on her face and I, and I, I dug  into it a little bit and I think when I was vulnerable enough to say that it's okay  to not be okay, that opened the door for her to let me in and tell me exactly what  was wrong, instead of just saying, okay, a third time, leave me alone.  

    Brian: And we, we got some resolve out of this situation. So. Thank you for  that.  

    Julie: Yeah, you're welcome. And I'm so happy that you know, you to hear that  you already have these skills. Right. And, and I [01:48:00] get it. Like it is so  much easier to do that with our kids. And wouldn't it be nice, won't it be nice  when you guys can show up for each other in that way?  

    Julie: You know, it's different because you don't need your daughter to show up  for you. Like you don't have those needs.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: So that's what makes it really more complicated here. So my hope is that,  you know, two things will happen from this work here and just being more clear  with each other is that one, when you have these triggers outside of here, the,  the understanding from this work we're doing will create a softening in and of  itself.  

    Julie: Like we're just kind of inserting this into your nervous systems, right?  Instead of staying and talking about these events in the cycles, and then two that  you, you're starting to maybe get some new words here that you can start using  with each other. Because if we wanna get rid of the old stuff, we gotta have new  stuff to replace it, right?  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Yeah. And you, you know, Brian, [01:49:00] clearly you already have  some of those words because you were able to say to your daughter, Hey, it's  okay. I'm right here. I got you. I can meet you where you are.  

    Brian: Yeah. It was a good experience. We were able to, you know, identify the  problem and, and make moves to fix, you know, what, what was, what was she  lacking, what she needed.  

    Brian: And I think it was, it was a good, good moment for us. You know, I felt  like at that point she could come to me and in other circumstances with that, that 

    experience in her back pocket and say like, you know, my dad's gonna, you  know, be able to handle this for me. So,  

    Julie: yes,  

    Julie: yes.  

    Julie: It  

    Julie: was so co-regulating.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: That was a gift for her.  

    Brian: Yeah. It was.  

    Julie: Well, good, good job today. Um, both did a great job. And we'll pick back  up [01:50:00] on Wednesday. Alright, well let's take a big breath with that one.  You know, what we witnessed today was, was difficult and messy and essential  work to learning to co-regulate and what are our blocks to being able to lean  into each other.  

    Julie: Um, you don't, you don't learn how to do something better by having  someone tell you you're doing it wrong. You learn to do something better by  learning more about what's blocking you from doing it the right way to begin  with. So this breakthrough, you know, here, it didn't come from deciding who  was right about the baby monitor.  

    Julie: Um, the shift began when we uncovered the raw hurt, hiding behind  Brian's sarcasm, you know, his, his pain of feeling untrusted and like a second  class citizen, like we've said. And then on the other side, we learned that  Bethany's instinct to explain and rationalize is their own lifelong strategy for  managing overwhelming emotions by just making them go away.  

    Julie: Of course, that's how she tries to help [01:51:00] Brian. That's how she's  been trying to help her. And so. Continue to help her, help herself in a new way  and help Brian in a new way. Now, maybe today you listened and you thought,  well, Brian should just not respond with sarcasm. How easy would that be? And  

    sure, maybe if it were just that easy. 

    Julie: Um, but my point in this episode is to demonstrate just how quickly both  partners clinging to their moves in this negative cycle and moves that just take  them further away from co-regulation. So the real question becomes, do you  have what it takes to hold your partner's pain even when you're hurting?  

    Julie: You know, if you know in your heart there was nothing that you said to  warrant a sarcastic response, are you able to look deeper and just try to  understand what's happening underneath that sarcasm and then later showing up  with your own stuff and, and them being able to lean in with you and help you  there too.  

    Julie: So if you understand that co-regulation is the goal, can you put your pain  [01:52:00] to the side just for a moment? Tend to your partner. Again, then  come back to you. It's not about you never getting your needs met. This has to  be balanced here. And it's hard, but it is necessary work. So if you, if you look  at this therapy process like a boulder, I believe we are slowly, slowly chipping  away at it.  

    Julie: And there's even a moment at the end of this EP episode that shows this  perfectly. After Bethany was vulnerable, Brian, you know, really began to  analyze his new understanding of their cycle. I initially misinterpreted it as him  not holding her emotionally. Um, but that wasn't really true. What, what he was  doing is he was actually processing the breakthrough in real time.  

    Julie: And it's another example of them chipping away at this process in  perfectly. But together, and I thoroughly appreciate Bethany and Brian for doing  this hard work and sharing their journey with us though, so that we can all learn  from this experience. So for your homework this week, I want you to [01:53:00] reflect on your last conflict.  

    Julie: When you felt hurt, what was your go-to protective move? Was it  sarcasm, explaining silence, and more importantly. What was the feeling you  were trying to communicate underneath that defense? Alright, well we'd love to  hear what you discover, so please send me a voice note or email to support at  the secure relationship com.  

    Julie: And thank you for joining me today. This is the hard, hard work of  healing. Learning to put down our defenses long enough to see the person we  love on the other side. Alright, well that wraps it up for today, so don't forget  next week we'll be hearing from our season one couple, Melissa and Drew. And  until next time, take care of yourself and your [01:54:00] relationships.

 
Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/
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