Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me

Season 2
Written By Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

After a long holiday break, Bethany and Brian have lost momentum and are "not in a good spot." Brian opens the session feeling "checked out" and asks, "Is this insanity?" while Bethany feels like she's "walking on eggshells," afraid to trigger him. The core of the session focuses on the main block to their progress: Brian's unshakeable and "unworkable" narrative that Bethany is "maliciously out to get him."

We explore how Brian's history—from his mother to the financial infidelity to a new story from Christmas—has conditioned him to default to this narrative. The breakthrough comes in reframing this belief not as a fact, but as a safety strategy. His brain defaults to "she's malicious" because it offers a simple solution to his deep pain ("unlovable," "a fool"): it gives him "permission" to leave, which feels safer than being vulnerable.

This week's prompt: This week, we worked on the reframe from 'she's malicious' to 'she's just hurt and in her protective mode.' Think about your partner's most triggering behavior. What is the malicious story you automatically tell yourself about it? And what might the 'they're just hurt' version of that story be?

Send your responses to this prompt or any questions/comments you have about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecurerelationship.com. Your submission might be featured in a future episode.

  • Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me  

    Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast.  I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and  I'm author of the book Secure Love. So today's session comes after a long  holiday break. And just for context, we recorded these sessions a year ago. Uh,  this session was at the very beginning of this year, and after the time away we  lost some momentum in the therapy, which is very normal.  

    Uh, Bethany and Brian were not in. A good spot and I wasn't surprised. It's still  early in the work, especially for a couple, you know, in as much pain as these  two, you know, it's still early in this work, especially for a couple that is in as  much pain as Bethany and Brian. And when you take a break without having  consistent practice with the new tools, it's really easy to revert right back to old  negative cycles.  

    And then of course, the longer we go with the work, the more it does start to  stick outside of [00:01:00] here for longer stretches of time. So you're gonna  hear right away, Brian's going to lead with how he's just kind of checked out,  

    he's hurting, he's going to ask, I really don't see this progressing. You know, is  this insanity?  

    He is able to see how this work is helping in other areas of his life with his  employees, with his daughter. But he is seeing blocks with Bethany and he is  just sending mixed signals. A good moment followed by, I'm just ready to go.  And part of what is going on with him is he doesn't have a realistic idea of how  couples therapy works and the time involved, and especially how that's also  relative to the state of the relationship when we start.  

    And then, you know, he doesn't understand quite yet that we're not just doing  skills work that we have, to keep doing the nervous system work. Alongside the  skills work and the sessions for it to really start clicking into place. And part of  that is just he's in a lot of pain and he wants relief yesterday.  

    And I get that. And [00:02:00] then Bethany, on the other hand is trying really  hard, but she's walking on eggshells. You know, she feels like Brian's triggers  are so high that she just never knows what's going to set 'em off. And then when  they get into these cycles, she just feels like she's being punished. But the core  of this session, um, the thing that is blocking all of our progress is Brian's  unshakeable narrative that Bethany is actually out to get him. 

    You know, I, I have to say to him this session, this is unworkable. You know,  you can't be vulnerable with someone that you believe is maliciously trying to  just hurt you. So we're going to explore how real this fear is for him. You know,  we have to understand whether or not this fear that she's out to get him is  speaking the whole truth, or if there are.  

    Other ways to look at the situation they're in. Maybe it's not just explained by,  she's out to get him. You know, both of their behaviors are symptoms of the root  [00:03:00] problem, emotional unsafety they've built together via these negative  cycles. And that neither of them came to the relationship with the emotional  tools to navigate normal conflict in a way that prevented negative cycles and  prevented more wounds from building up, which is, this is the case for all  struggling couples.  

    But Brian hasn't completely bought into that idea yet, and so the only real  alternative to. These are cycles that we're both contributing to is this narrative  that, well, it just must be her. And we're going to see how Brian's, I'm done, I'm  leaving. Move that he keeps circling back to is actually a powerful protective  strategy.  

    It's his way of rationalizing the pain and giving himself permission to get out.  And my job today is to drill deep, to get him to understand why this narrative  exists and challenge to see him if he [00:04:00] can, even for a moment.  Reframe it and see how it's contributing to this negative cycle. And some of you  might be wondering, just in case is aren't avoidant partners the one who usually  want to just escape and get out?  

    Yes, but usually if an avoidant partner says, I'm done, they're done. There's,  they're just that they mean it when they say it. And a lot of times when an  anxious partner says, I'm done there, at least in part they're saying that out of a  place of protest, you know, in these sessions, the surface problems are going to  change from session to session, but the emotional work is all the same.  

    We just continue to give them new experiences with talking about hard things in  new emotionally safe ways. And eventually, as we just keep doing these reps  session after session, it's going to start sticking outside of here. All right, but  before we dive in, let's hear from you, the listeners, and to kick it off, we have  an email here from [00:05:00] Anna.  

    Hello, Julie. First, I just wanna say how deeply grateful I am for the work you're  doing. I truly believe what you're sharing through your podcast and EFT work 

    has the power to change so many relationships. Mine included. So for some  background, my husband and I dated for about a year before getting married.  

    Things were easy and light back then. I rarely voiced my emotions, and we just  didn't have much conflict. Obviously, I know I must have an anxious  attachment, but I have sometimes wondered and wanted to blame him. That if I  become more anxious of a person throughout the course of our marriage,  looking back, I can see that he tended to stonewall and I had a lot of patience for  it then.  

    But in our first year of marriage, after our first baby was born, the same conflict  patterns kept showing up and got uglier. I became determined to understand  why we were stuck, which is how I eventually found EFT and your podcast. By  the time I discovered your work, we were three years into marriage. I just  bought a house and were expecting our second baby.  

    At a [00:06:00] real low point, my husband was resistant to listening or  engaging in the beginning, which was very painful. In the past couple months  though, he started to make genuine efforts. Now that he's trying, I'm realizing  how hard it is for me to come out of survival mode. I think I've numbed myself  emotionally for a long time.  

    We've had moments of reconnection that feel peaceful and so good, and then the  next day I'm easily triggered back into hopelessness again. It happens so fast. So  my question is this, as the anxious partner who has spent years in survival  mode, how can I start to trust my husband, regulate my anxious and hopeless  feelings, and begin to truly come out of that state, especially now that my  husband is finally showing up.  

    Hi Anna. So to start, I just wanna say how much I appreciate the feedback. You  know, it's everything to me to know that I'm making a difference, so thank you  for that. And to your question, I think that, you know, sometimes gaining new  awareness of problems can feel good and also bad at the same time, because  while there's some [00:07:00] relief and being able to see this, you know, it's,  it's hard and it's, it's frustrating to not know what to do with it.  

    And it's a, a growing pain to, so to speak. And, and I just wanna encourage you  to hang in there. All growth really does start with awareness. Even it, even when  it can feel kind of discouraging at first. So specifically about your relationship  with your husband and. When you can expect your nervous system to settle in  and let its guard down. 

    And I have, I have two answers to that. So one is that, you know, when it comes  to trust and trusting new things, there's nothing that can replace time and  repeated experiences of something new. So what I would say is that part of the  work is the relationship, being able to hold your mistrust and fear. So it's not  like we're trying to rush through and get to the trust place, [00:08:00] which will  be nice, you know.  

    But part of the work is bringing that mistrust into the fear in, into the  relationship and, and that work for you. Looks like being able to give yourself  permission and acceptance for that. For that experience, which is  understandable and, and for you that sounds like, you know, of course I have a  hard time trusting that's what happens when people have been hurt and dropped  and emotionally neglected, and I can accept that part of me for now.  

    And then the relationship work is sharing these feelings with your husband  vulnerably, which, can sound like, you know, my heart was so hurt during those  vulnerable times. I'm not even putting all the blame on you, but the hurt was  real. And you know, if I'm going to let my guard down, my body really needs to  have new experiences.  

    And one of those new experiences we can do right now, which is knowing that  you can understand my mistrust and accept [00:09:00] that part, this part of me  that does have a hard time trusting, I need to know that that's okay with you.  And you see that as part of our healing process as we work through this. And  you, you know, you can even add, I'm guessing you might have some mistrust  of your own.  

    And I wanna hear about that too. And, you know, as you continue to do the  work and as you practice building up just emotional safety in the way that  you're interacting with each other now, you, you build up those tools and you  start to see, hey, this is, this is a much more successful way of reaching each  other.  

    And, you know, hopefully your husband continues to grow and become more  emotionally engaged with himself. And then at some point, you know, we can  have, you need to have some more in depth conversation about healing some of  these wounds because, you know, this wasn't like some big dramatic attachment  injury where someone had an affair or you know, some kind of financial  [00:10:00] infidelity.  

    But this is a chronic feeling of emotional neglect, type of attachment injury that  will need some healing conversations. And you know, your, your husband, if I 

    talk to him, I might hear that he has some. Chronic feelings too that he needs to  talk about and heal. So anyway, it's just a matter of you. You just have to give it  the time to build the work, build upon itself, and create more and more safety.  

    And the more safety, the more you can go deep. And then as that process  unfolds, your body should start to trust along with the growth. So thank you  again for your email, Anna. I really appreciate you tuning in. So now we're  going to go to a quick note from Christie. Christie says, I've appreciated this  season so much so far, and just many things are really making sense.  

    Can you address how alcoholism fits into this method? Also, I love the idea of a  TV show. You should do a Mary Poppins sort of [00:11:00] figure and work  with a couple each show or for a whole season. Alright, let me talk about the  alcohol part first. You know, there are some contraindications to EFT therapy.  One of those is, is active substance abuse.  

    And, you know, now we have to say, well, what is, where's the line between  light substance abuse and active substance abuse? And where I would draw that  line is if someone is using alcohol to the point that they cannot participate in,  uh, relationship work because they're either intoxicated and not really  themselves.  

    And, you know, you can't really have access to your emotions in a healthy way.  If you're. If they're covered up with a substance. So you, you wouldn't be able to  really work on the relationship if alcohol is blocking your ability to do that. If  alcohol is so important that it is, it is the number one safety strategy.  

    [00:12:00] And we more so than, than working on the relationship because the  alcohol is, is being used as a pain relief. Then we have a competing attachment  where right now alcohol is, is what's most important. And, for good reasons.  Most people don't go, oh, I'm gonna choose for alcohol to be more important  than my partner.  

    But if there, if that is alcohol, is their coping mechanism, then that is the result.  And so what do we do here? That person really needs to get the alcoholism  stable to the point at least where they're sober enough of the time to have  emotionally engaged, regulated conversations to start to heal.  

    And sometimes I will work with a couple where the alcoholism is being treated  outside of the therapy and we're doing the relationship work inside of the  therapy because here's the deal. Getting relationships to a healthier place 

    [00:13:00] reduces a lot of stress and creates connection, meaningful  connection.  

    And that those two things actually help people get off of the alcohol. They start  getting their needs met in new ways and stop experiencing so much stress that  they're drinking to escape from. And there's actually a book out there called  Beyond Addiction by Jeffrey Foote, and he kind of uses more of an attachment  friendly model to address.  

    Substance abuse, so you might wanna check that out. I love that book. Um, and  then as far as my TV show, well it's kind of a, unrealistic fantasy, but I, I think  that would, I would really enjoy you know, watching like a couple have a  camera on them all day. And then as they start to go into a negative cycle, then I  just sort of pop in like super nanny for relationships and help them just  restructure the interaction right then and there in, in real time and say, Hey, let's,  you guys are going into a cycle.  

    Let's do this in a new way and see what we can [00:14:00] do different that  might be more successful and effective than what you're trying to do right now  to reach each other. Alright, well thank you Christie. Great question. And all  right, so now we're going to hear a voice note from Tiffany who is experiencing  a very common challenge when it comes to the negative cycle in her  relationship.  

    Listener Segment: Hey julie. My partner and I of six years have been listening  to your podcast together. We're reading and rereading your book, and we're truly  trying but we're struggling to turn around our negative cycles. So, as an  example, we do a weekly date night, and this particular Thursday went  completely sideways.  

    We went to a sports bar and it was nice. It was quiet at first, but they didn't serve  food, so I ordered pizza from next door to bring back to the bar. Eventually  when the pizza arrived, he suggested that we take it home. I said, okay, that's  fine, but before we leave, can we eat a slice or two? While it was still hot,  [00:15:00] which that felt really important to him, and his response was, I can't  say anything to you.  

    That sentence really stunned me and um, I guess I just felt like I was getting it  wrong all night. And on our drive home I could feel my throat starting to tighten  and I got quiet. And so in an effort to try to catch the negative cycle, I said, you  know, I can feel myself shutting down. Can we try something new? 

    And so that, from there I shared how I felt the evening went for me and he said  basically, you know, it's not your job to get it right. And this left me feeling  really invalidated. And so I came back and I gently asked him, you know, what  did you mean when you said, I can't say anything to you? And he didn't know.  

    And so we tried talking about it and I could see him kind of explaining stuff,  explaining [00:16:00] his view, maybe similar to what Bethany is doing, and I  could see my feelings getting dropped similar to maybe how Brian has felt this  season. And I guess it was just really deflating to try to catch the negative cycle  early, yet not really knowing how to turn it into a positive cycle.  

    So I'm curious, should he have been wearing the caretaker hat, but then also his  comment of. Not being able to say anything to me. It just really hurt. And he  couldn't really explain what he meant by that. When I pressed him, he would get  frustrated and ultimately shut down the end. So Julie, I'm lost. If you could, uh,  help us understand what are we doing wrong, what are we not seeing?  

    And um, really at the end of the day, we tried to catch the negative cycle, but it  felt like we failed miserably. [00:17:00] Any help you could provide, Julie  would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much.  

    Julie: Okay, Tiffany.  

    Well first of all, thank you for the question and I just want you to know that as I  listen to this, I mean, my heart just breaks for you and your husband because it's  can feel just so discouraging to be doing your best to put the work into practice  and just not be able to, you know, get to where you're hoping to be.  

    I encourage you to keep going, you know. You're playing with it. You, it sounds  like you both have, your heart isn't trying. If I'm listening to your story, you  know, the, the place where my brain goes, first of all, any trigger point is a way  to get in and kind of understand on a deeper level what's going on.  

    You know, I would maybe go to that point where he says, I can't say anything to  you. And it, he, you could lean into him right there, or he could learn how to  lean into you later when you feel misunderstood. But let's say we just, we  [00:18:00] just start there and, and you maybe try, okay, hold on. You know  something, something's coming up for you and I wanna know more about that.  

    I wanna hear what you mean by that. You know something, I trust that you, you  have a good reason to have that fear. Maybe it's not happening right now, but  maybe in the past, in our relationship, you have felt, you know, like, like it 

    wasn't safe to say things. I, I don't know, you tell me. And maybe just try to kind  of create a little safety around, Hey, look, I'm, yes, I've got my own stuff coming  up around that, but I trust that you're trying to communicate something  important to me.  

    Let me lean in and try to understand where you're coming from. Maybe it won't  work, quote unquote, right in that moment. He might still deflect or put a wall  up or not wanna talk or not know what's going on. But at least there's this new  experience where you tried to lean in and that would probably.  

    Probably diffuse it right then and there, and then later, [00:19:00] you know,  you can come in and say, Hey, can we talk about this again? Because, you know,  I wanna lean in and understand you. I don't want you to have to rely on saying, I  can never say anything because I wanna help each other in these places. But,  you know, I also feel misunderstood and that doesn't work for me either.  

    And then as far as like, him not knowing what he's feeling, I mean, this is, this  is a problem, right? It's really hard to do this vulnerability work if someone just  doesn't know how to get there, because he's been his whole life more than  likely. Shutting it down, shutting it off, disconnecting.  

    And this is the part where, you know, there's. There's a lot of value to him being  able to access some self-help or go see a professional therapist to learn to more  fully engage with himself. Because what happens is, is when we have painful  emotions, you know, we basically have three options of what to do with them.  

    One, we can just shove them [00:20:00] down and let them turn into just kind of  this festering anxiety and frustration all the time. And, you know, maybe have  effects on someone's health. So that's not, that option has downsides. Or we can  just kind of ex only express them in anger and frustration, which is what he did  in this situation.  

    I can never say anything, right is not really healthy. Direct communication of  feelings and asking for help. And let's talk through this so we can meet each  other here. In. Instead, it's just kind of a protest and that doesn't work. And then  the third option is to learn how to tap in and figure out what is actually going on  inside of me.  

    Why am I needing to say, um, I can't say anything to you? What are the feelings  around that? You know, I, I'm guessing that underneath all of that, you know, is,  is gonna go to the same place. You know, I feel alone and like, you know, I, I'm  not gonna be heard no matter what I do. [00:21:00] And, and I always have to 

    trust that these negative cycles that the two of you have had together have  somehow sent that message to him, whether it's intentional or not, whether that's  where your heart is or not.  

    And we need to make space for him to talk about the pain around that. But we  can't. We can't talk about the pain if he doesn't know what it's, so this is an  opportunity to, for him to really kind of do what I'm doing with both Bethany  and Brian, which is trying to really get in there and understand more about what  those feelings are trying to say, what they need to heal and what they need for  help.  

    And that self-work really has to be done in order to be able to get there. And  some people can get there just by first being aware of this work and, okay, now  I'm aware there's something else there. And then maybe just. Time going by and  a little more self-exploration. Sometimes people can get there, um, just with  some self-work, you know, but sometimes we need an intervention.  

    Sometimes we need, um, a next level of help and that certainly is [00:22:00] gonna make it go a lot faster than trying to do it on your own. So then of course,  you know, there's points at which you are gonna need help too. You know, it  didn't feel good for you to feel like you're, you know, losing a game you didn't  even know you were playing.  

    And in that situation, that's when he really needs to be willing to lean into you  and let you put words to, Hey, this is where it leads me. You know, I end up  feeling scared that I'm gonna let you down. And then, you know, underneath  that I feel kind of alone and disconnected from you. And that's a painful place to  be.  

    And maybe it's not my job to get it right for you, but it is my job to. Help us  stay connected. And if that doesn't happen and we experience a feeling of  disconnection, wouldn't it be nice if we could try to meet each other and you  can tell me, Hey, this is what's happening that you know is, is.  

    L leaving me feeling kind of disconnected and you shared the same thing  [00:23:00] with him. So anyway I know that that's a tall order for people who  are really just new to this work and some people are more distressed than  others. But I do think if you just keep your mindset and we're just gonna keep  putting one foot in front of the other and keep trying to trudge through this and  understand all this stuff on a deeper level, and gradually your brains will start  sort of reframing the problem and build a little more safety. 

    I would like to think that maybe things are going a little bit better than they  were in the past. Maybe in a two steps forward, one step back kind of way. And  that is something. And then of course, you know, professional help is always, is  always a good idea. Um, if you can't get there on your own. Alright, so as  always, I can't say it enough how much I appreciate everyone who is sending in  an email and voice note.  

    And I just love how, I love hearing how the show is resonating with you. Uh,  alright, so let's dive [00:24:00] in to session 11 with Brian and Bethany. All  right, well, how is, how are things?  

    Bethany: Not good.  

    Julie: Okay. I kind of had an idea that would be the case after such a long time.  What's going on?  

    Bethany: Go  

    ahead and  

    you can talk.  

    You're mad at me, so.  

    Julie: Um, all right, well, what, what's going on?  

    Let me start with this, and I don't know how relevant this is now because it's  been a bit since we talked about it, and I know some, clearly some stuff has  happened, but we talked at the end of the last session about how, you know, you  have all these kind of lingering attachment wounds that we haven't really  addressed and we keep talking about these, fights that negative cycles that come  up over less important topics.  

    And I don't think I explained [00:25:00] well enough why. You know, we can't  really dive into that fully yet. And I wanted to just address that, if we talk about  those attachment wounds in a cycle, in a negative cycle, it's just gonna make  those wounds worse. And so we can't really have a full conversation, a healing  conversation until we can talk about them outside of cycles.  

    So we can dive into the topic in here. It's just that once it starts to go into a  negative cycle, and it gets to the point where, you know, we're in our defense  mechanisms and protections and we're not really able to sit with each other's 

    perspective and validate and kind of be with the other person as they share, then  I have to pull us out and figure out what's blocking that from happening.  

    So with that said, why don't you guys, you know, just kind of, you know, put,  fill me in or comment on that. Whatever you need to do,  

    Bethany: go ahead. if you want.  

    Brian: Comment on what you just talked [00:26:00] about?.  

    Julie: Yeah. Whatever feels, if you have questions about that or anything to say  about that, or, you know, it seems like something is in the air, we can just jump  right into that if you'd like  

    Brian: to be truthfully honest with you, I just don't, I don't see this really  progressing in a way I feel like in, in the approach of the negative cycles.  

    You know, I, I feel that like in the last few weeks, like I've been expressing my  triggers, expressing, how a past wound has come up or something. And, uh, I try  to be vulnerable. I try to, you know, get the, you know, get the negative feeling  off of my chest and make her aware, and I, I just. I'm just constantly laying in it.  

    I don't see how we fix anything moving forward when we just continuously get  in this [00:27:00] negative cycle and it's just like, it's just not working, and then  the, the bigger issue becomes like, is this just insanity? 'Cause we're putting in  the same ingredients every time and we end up at the same place and we just  continuously go, in this spot.  

    And like, I, I feel like I'm mostly getting hurt and getting back up. Trying to  have the courage or the strength to do, you know, what you've been telling us to  do. Only to find myself right back in the same hurt space.  

    Julie: Sure. So you're not, you're saying, look, I'm putting in, from your  perspective, I'm not really sure, you know, I can't see you outside of here, so I  don't know how effective you're putting the work in, but from your perspective,  you're, you're going, look, I'm trying, you know, what you're [00:28:00] telling  us to do and it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere and I'm still hurting.  

    And maybe it even hurts worse thinking that you're doing what you're supposed  to do and it's still not working. That's pretty demoralizing.  

    Brian: Yeah. It's just, it's defeating. 

    Julie: Yeah. And so you're still really suffering and you're, you're wanting, you  know, you're questioning is this, is this insanity to keep going with the process  that is just kind of either not working or making things worse?  

    Brian: Yeah, for the most part. .  

    Julie: Alright. Well that makes sense to me. You know, we've got, part of the  plan, our plan is that we've got I think about 10 sessions left, would you, do you  have it in you to go forward with the next 10 sessions or are you saying, look, I  don't, I don't really, I mean, what we could do is kind of, at least if nothing else,  spend the next 10 sessions figuring out what is going wrong.  

    You, you know, you're telling me, look, I'm putting all the work in my job  would be, okay, let's, first of all, figure out what [00:29:00] does that work look  like? Is it actually the work or is it just kind of, you know, a little bit into this  process, what you perceive the work to be? And if it is the most perfect work  possible, you know, what's kind of blocking Bethany from taking it in and  what's going on on, on her side of the equation.  

    But I also need to respect the fact that, you know, nobody needs to, there are,  there is a point at which people don't wanna be vulnerable anymore. It's too  painful. I mean, I can meet you wherever you would like for me to meet you.  

    Brian: If I had to be truthfully and honest with you I'm not gonna say that the  work is absolutely perfect.  

    'Cause we're, we're flawed individuals to begin with. I feel like a sense of duty  to continue coming here to honor my commitment to you, to this podcast, to the,  your work. More than I feel a [00:30:00] duty to repair it with Bethany at this  point. And I do feel like, I think, you know, a couple weeks ago I expressed that  like it is helping me acknowledge in different relationships, like with my  daughter or employees or you know, friends and feel it's also like something  that's.  

    Sort of known within me it's just like a, like a second nature or a like another  sense that like, I know that maybe I, if I act out a certain way, it's probably not  good. And the real trigger was, like when I break it down in my head, being  vulnerable with myself, like I know exactly why this stuff is happening, but I  just I'm, I'm in it, I'm in it for, you know, to finish out the sessions.  

    However that looks like, um, if we're diving into triggers to just sort of find like  peace in it or if it [00:31:00] ends up working out if we just go on this, this 

    journey that, like how we have the past 10 sessions I'm just, I'm willing to, to  put forth the effort and show up and, and work.  

    Julie: All right.  

    So. Let me, you can correct me if I'm wrong, lemme see if I'm getting it. You  are noticing that this has been helpful kind of on a personal level and other  relationships and that's good. And you're willing to kind of keep going forward  with that. You, the commitment is important to you, which is I appreciate that  but you're not really feeling motivated to help to use this work to help the  relationship.  

    You're kind of d you're checked out at this point, it sounds like. Okay. So Julie  here, and this is a critical moment. When Brian says that he's checked out of  repairing the relationship, it's easy to hear him say this and it's easy to go to,  well, he's just being colder uncaring. But [00:32:00] what we're hearing is the  voice of his hopelessness.  

    You know, he's essentially saying, I've tried to be vulnerable. I've put myself out  there and I just keep getting hurt and it's not working. And you know, it's  debatable how vulnerable he's been outside of here. Um, I think probably less so  than he, you know, realizes because he is still learning. But for someone with an  anxious attachment style, the pain of just.  

    Repeatedly failing to connect. It's just agonizing. And this checking out that he's  doing, it's a survival strategy. And his nervous system is telling him it's safer to  detach and feel nothing than it is to just keep trying and being in this much pain.  And then of course, you know, we also have to consider the other truth here  that, you know, we need to recognize that Brian has a much bigger role in his  hopelessness than he's fully able to see yet.  

    You know, there's still a disconnect for [00:33:00] him between being a person  who communicates in ways like get your stuff and get out, and his relationship  problems, he's still kind of missing. That link is just a little blurry for him still,  you know, he just wants to focus on whatever it was she did and just sort of  

    gloss over, get your stuff, and get out as an ongoing pattern that's getting in his  way.  

    His mindset is still in this place, which is very common for struggling couples  of, I only have to act like this because they are so bad, which isn't fully taking  ownership of one's part. So for EFT therapy to be successful, we have to get to  the place where each partner can lean away from a focus on what they're doing 

    wrong and lean more heavily into why am I doing what I am doing and what's  the impact of my behavior on myself and my partner and the relationship, and  what can I do to shift?  

    And yeah, we do need to talk about what they need to [00:34:00] do to shift, but  most people aren't spending enough time in, what do I need to do? What's going  on with me? And this is called moving from other focus to self focus. You can  see here that just in this conversation between the two of them, Brian's narrative  is more heavily leaned into the other focus, what she does.  

    And Bethany's narrative leans into, no matter what I do, I can't get it right. And  both of these have elements of blame. But for Brian, it's just more overtly about  what she's doing wrong. And for Bethany, it's more overtly about how hard I try  

    and it's not enough, which is something that really shows that one of those  distinctions between anxious and avoidant attachment.  

    So for you, just take a moment to think about this for you. You know, when  you're in pain in your relationship, how do you make sense of it? Does your  brain quickly go to my suffering is because of them and they just do what they  do because they're just bad or uncaring? Or can you balance that out with, you  [00:35:00] know, and I also have a role in what they're doing that's causing my  suffering.  

    If so, are you open to zooming out and seeing that maybe your relationship  problems aren't actually about one of you being good or bad, but about the way  that both of you are contributing to these communication cycles that are eroding  safety and making it impossible to work anything through?  

    Brian: I think over the past couple weeks I've just sort of checked out like,  okay, I, I felt like I've, there's probably been four negative cycles that we've  been in, and, uh, there's just some things that I noticed that, like, I felt like I,  

    whether it was text message or verbally saying things like you know, where I  was at, it's not being validated, it's not being recognized, and it just keep  marching on and then there's a quiet period.  

    And then there's a somewhat of a reconnection period, and I think the  reconnection [00:36:00] period is like me being vulnerable, thinking that this  will change this time, and then very shortly after I'm validated that it's not going  to change.  

    Julie: Okay. 

    Bethany: It doesn't, it's not easy not being around all the time. So when we're  like bouncing in and out, you know, I feel like sometimes there's not the  opportunity to try to repair because it's, it's like not being here present in this  house, which is still technically my house.  

    Mm-hmm. It's like a punishment, right? Like when we're in a negative cycle.  No, I don't wanna see you. No, don't come here. No, we're like strictly co parents. There's no co-mingling and that's like, that's hard. Yeah. And like the  last negative cycle, like we had a really, really good night. We don't even have  to get into those details, but like at the end of the night we were [00:37:00] talking and it went from I love you.  

    And then like, things shifted and then within 10 minutes it was like, you know,  we went into a, a, a negative cycle. Nobody was yelling or anything like that.  And it was, you can get, because I the plan was to stay Saturday night and be  here today, but this morning or Saturday night and Sunday night.  

    And then I was like, get your shit. You can get the fuck out in the morning.  Brian: I didn't say that.  

    Bethany: Yes you did. And you put my bags in the hallway and I slept with you  can get your shit in the morning and get the fuck out.  

    Brian: I don't. Think I said it that harshly, but I said, you can get your things  and plan on packing up to go tomorrow.  

    Bethany: You said it that harshly.  

    Julie: Okay. So the message was go and however it was delivered and that was  confusing for you. The real pertinent piece of this is that it was confusing for  you because you had gone from this great place to Okay. However it's delivered.  I need for you to go.  

    Bethany: I mean, I [00:38:00] knew, I knew that we were in this negative cycle,  right?  

    And I knew how it got there.  

    Julie: But alright, before we go, before we go too far, 'cause I do wanna hear  what you have to say. Bethany, I need to just to readdress this thing. The only  way this therapy works is if you're both willing to be vulnerable, right? If we're 

    really trying to help the relationship if Brian, you're saying to me, look, I'm not  really willing to be vulnerable anymore because this is hurting me, it's not  getting me anywhere, then that all the other good reasons for staying in the  work become irrelevant at that point because the agenda is no longer to help the  relationship. The agenda is now all these other good reasons, right?  

    But what happens is, is if you're not willing to be vulnerable, then I can't ask  Bethany to be vulnerable because that, that's not gonna be fair to, to either of  you if only one partner is willing to be vulnerable. So I just need to check in.  Are you still willing to try outside of here?[00:39:00]  

    And if you're not, I totally respect that and understand that. I just need to check  that out.  

    Brian: Try As in what? Like hang out with her.  

    Julie: Try as in,  

    instead of saying you need to pack your stuff and take it out, you talk about  what's really happening with you and you try to, and you guys aren't really, you  know, you don't have the skills yet to do that, which is why your brains and  bodies keep going back into the negative cycle.  

    'cause you don't have the skills yet.  

    Brian: Yeah,  

    Julie: but I need a commitment to try outside of here. As much as I need a  commitment to show up here, even if you fail, at least you're trying and we can  say, Hey, even if you fail, we can figure out what went wrong and kind of tweak  that so we can do something different next time.  

    Brian: I dunno, it's a hard decision and it's, it's just signing up for more pain  and punishment, I feel like.  

    Julie: All right.  

    So can, can we explore then, instead of, you know, just leaving it at that, I  [00:40:00] would like to understand what is so hard about that decision. That's  what I'm interested in to help you kind of understand yourself better, to help  Bethany understand better that you're not just kind of rejecting her or icing her 

    out, that you know this is about some other stuff going on and it's not being  communicated effectively when it comes up outside of here.  

    And for no fault of either of you, you just haven't quite, you again, you don't  quite have the skills and your fear and mistrust is still very high. Okay. And so,  but I also wanna wanna check in Bethany, kind of give you some space before,  you know, I understand more about him to share with me what's been going on  with you for the last couple weeks.  

    Bethany: Yeah, it's just hard not being here. It's hard not being here and it's hard  feeling like I'm, I'm punished when, you know, we, we get into a negative cycle  and. I'm also trying to be vulnerable and he doesn't feel that I am. And I'm also  trying to, [00:41:00] to support him and, and use some of the tools. And then  when I try, I feel like I'm met with like silence or it's not heard.  

    And I recognize that we don't have all the skills or the tools yet to do it. The  triggers for him are so high. And that's hard for me because I just don't know  what I'm gonna say that's gonna trigger him to, to spiral. Like there's things that  he says to me, right, that cause me to spiral a little bit, but I never like  completely wall him off.  

    Okay. Or go radio silent. And so it's hard to know. I feel like. He wants me to  respond in a certain way that meets this expectation that he has and I can't, and I  don't do that. So then I'm like, I'm like punished for [00:42:00] it. And there's  things that, and I don't know if you want me to dive into what, like what  happened the other night or not, but that's where I'm sitting.  

    And it, that, that's the part I think that is so hard is to not be here, not have the  opportunity to repair, to not always know what he's thinking or, or feeling like  he is good at sharing some things, but sometimes they don't come until a couple  days later. And then I'm like blindsided by, he was like holding onto something  that was bothering him and he didn't share me, share it with me for a few days.  

    And that, that's hard too.  

    Julie: You're really struggling because these cycles keep happening. You don't  really feel a whole lot of control over them happening or not happening. You get  blindsided and then you don't have the opportunity to repair. Yeah. Yeah. And  then on top of that, there's this feeling like I'm being punished because I don't  live here.  

    Or I, tell me more about that. [00:43:00] 

    Bethany: Yeah. So, you know, when we're in a negative cycle, it's like, you  know, no. So we were in a negative cycle, like right after Christmas and, I still  had the whole week off and. I said, you know, do, do you wanna hang out? Like  I'm still not working. You don't have your older daughter.  

    I can send our baby to daycare. Like we can do things or we can hang out the  three of us in the evenings, whatever. And he was like, Nope, I'm starting this  big job. I'm starting this big job. I'm gonna be tired when I come home. I'm just  gonna wanna rest. It's gonna be hard. And so the intent was that I wasn't gonna  see him all week, but I recognize, or I know that that was part of, because we  were in a negative cycle.  

    He was pushing me away. And as it turns out, like you didn't even start that job  for whatever reason. So that didn't take place. Whether that was coincidence or,  or circumstance or whatever, that's fine. But then it's like we were able to repair  somewhat and then hang out a little bit. And then we went into another negative  cycle.  

    And then it was like, you were supposed to stay for two nights, [00:44:00] but  now you're only staying for one and you have to leave in the morning. And then  it's like, I don't, I don't hear from him all day. Right. And then I walk in here, he  comes in today and, and I was like, how was your morning? Fine. Does it feel,  you know, and I, I forget what else I said, and he was like, I don't have anything  to say to you.  

    And like, that's hard. That's really, really hard. And the other night I was trying  to repair what I was trying to repair. Like I went to lay down with the baby,  came back. So here's some, so just I can anger and I'm, then I met with anger,  right? And then he says like, really mean things. Why are you laughing?  

    Brian: Because I didn't talk to you.  

    Julie: See, that's what this, this is the si  

    this is the cycle, right?  

    Bethany: This is the  

    cycle.  

    Julie: Here's what I can do, I can help you understand. This is all I've got, you  know, for the next several minutes of the session is to help you understand what 

    happens. That you go down the road, you just went on where we're laughing and  you know, why are you doing that?  

    That instead of having a conversation about [00:45:00] that trigger, whatever  happened, something came up for you, Brian, when she said something. And in  a way that can. Help you guys. Let me just say this. Maybe not help you guys if  there's too much stuff built up from the past that can help you get there, but to  help a theoretical couple meet each other instead of going in, diving into the  triggers and then, you know, all this miscommunication flow going back and  forth.  

    I don't know if you guys can do it, but what I can help you do is understand why  you can't do it. Because if you go into the next relationship with these same  behaviors, when you get triggered, you are, you're gonna build up the same  wounds over time. So maybe we can just spend the rest of our time trying to  understand, Hey, this happened in this moment.  

    I, I trust that both of you could have done some different things in the moment  to help it go in a different direction. And we can understand [00:46:00] why that  didn't happen in the service of. Doing something different in the future, either  with the two of you or in a, in a future relationship.  

    Bethany: I, I really, really want this to work.  

    I do. And I'm not saying that I'm quitting. Like, I don't wanna quit at all. And  when we are at this place I just feel like if we didn't have you or the  commitment to this, like we would be done. Because I, I think he just reaches a  threshold and he just wants to quit. And I recognize that this has been going on  for such a long time and it's, it's been a long time of hurt and stress and like,  marriage, purgatory and, all right, well, you're both, it can be exhausting.  

    It can be [00:47:00] exhausting.  

    Julie: It's, I mean, it's brutal. It's absolutely no way around it. Brutal for both of  you.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: And you know, you're, you're still here and that says something, I do  think it's a good idea to, to give it until the end of our journey, just to say, I  mean, if nothing else, to walk away and say, Hey, we, we did what we could.  And 

    Bethany: I feel like that's what  

    he's gonna do no matter what.  

    That's what I'm sitting with.  

    Julie: Well, so first of all, I, I need to figure out who I'm gonna work with. You  know, I have to go back and forth one at a time, and I need, the only way this  works, the only way relationships work is when there's some big kind of  problem that we're taking turns, sharing our perspective, and being, one person  being in the, the needy role and the other person being [00:48:00] in the  supportive role.  

    And you know, because of the level of pain that both of you are in, it's, it's, uh,  it's difficult for me to know who gets to be supported first. I want it to feel fair  and safe for both of you. So, my goal is to try to get to both of you right now,  but, and it, it doesn't, we, we can address like either one of these cycles that  happened outside of here, or we can address whatever's happening right now.  

    I, I need right now, more than anything, to train you guys to be supportive of  each other's hurt and or figure out why. The very good reason that you just can't  do it because there's, there's been too much that's happened in the past. Trust is  so low.  

    Bethany: I don't care who you start with. I feel like I'm always the one hurting  him versus the other way around. Or maybe I just have more [00:49:00] tolerance. I don't know. Or less triggers. I have no idea.  

    Julie: Alright, so Julie here, this is a classic avoidant attachment thing to say be,  which is, I'm always the one upsetting him.  

    Because those with avoidant attachments spend so much time playing defense.  And the idea with that is I would be fine if they would just stop getting upset  and be okay. And it's because of the way the anxious avoidant relationship is in  balance. The anxious partner is fighting to resolve the problems and the  avoidant partner is fighting to maintain some level of stability.  

    Both are ways of fighting to protect the relationship and they don't work. And  balance is when both partners bring things up equally when there are problems.  But they both also on top of, you know, in addition to that, the second piece is  they also know how to communicate in a way. When problems are brought up  equally by both of [00:50:00] them, that maintains stability. 

    So they're working as a team instead of each of them just rigidly fighting for  parts of the whole. This is integrated. We're both fighting equally for all the  parts of the relationship. And so nobody's having to be so exhausted. You know,  there's a phrase that I like the anxious partner is asking, but not getting, the  avoidant partner is not asking and not getting, and you know, just as a preview  to next week's session, I am going to be moving Bethany from her defense  position and not to an offense position because that's the other extreme, but to  this sweet spot in the middle, which is called healthy assertion of self.  

    So that's to come, but for now, let's go back in.  

    Bethany: But if you want her to hear, if you wanna  

    hear things from me,  

    Brian: I mean, I just I feel like my threshold has just been, I. It's just way we're  way past it. It's, I just, I, I just sort of [00:51:00] can't deal with it anymore. It,  and it goes back to the insanity part.  

    You know, I hear Bethany and, and the fear and the sorrow attached to, you  know, the, the possibility of it ending. And, we're coming up, this is, this past  couple weeks sort of hit home to me that like, I've basically wasted another year  of my entire life. Christmas has come, the new year has come, and I am not one  single foot past or like in, in any type of growth whatsoever.  

    I'm in, I'm in the same spot. My marriage is un is uncertain. My custody  schedule is uncertain, my life is uncertain and it just sort of flashed before me.  And. The session that we had before Christmas, uh, which was canceled. We  were sort of sitting here and then took the time afterwards to [00:52:00] maybe  try, even though we don't have the tools to try to hear each other out about our  situations and what had happened in the past negative cycle, like the weekend  before Christmas.  

    And something sort of triggered me in the, in the conversation. And I remember  talking about, or telling you about that she had called the police on me. And  since that night I've always had a hunch of how things really played out. And  she was truthful and honest with me. I couldn't, couldn't really quite believe it,  but she had admitted to me that the calling the police.  

    Was all premeditated and she had had conversations with this friend, policeman  prior to, so that when the stars would align, [00:53:00] then he would be the 9 1  1 call, not the actual 9 1 1. 

    Bethany: That  

    part was not premeditated.  

    Brian: Okay. Okay. That's how I heard it and that that doesn't make me feel safe  in, in any relationship. If someone is willing to just completely maliciously take  me out in some form or fashion, like I don't see how you come back from that  really. And then  

    Julie: so, and I agree. I agree with that. If you really, really, truly do believe that  she is maliciously out to get you, that's unworkable.  

    It's a, a complete, that's sort of how I, it can't work. But, so I need to, I guess  with you, what I would need to understand this, I think this could be helpful for  you is to understand how much reality there is to that. Like, is there, is there a  part of you that maybe there's another way to explain it, they can see there's  maybe another way [00:54:00] to explain it, that maybe she isn't just out to get  me, maybe she just gets hurt too, and that's her way of protecting herself.  

    Kind of like you get hurt and that's your way of, you have your own little  strategies for, you know, trying to protect yourself. Yeah. I think, 'cause I do, I  do wonder if there might be a part of you that co comes to the relationship with  a tendency to think when something goes wrong, someone's out to get you.  

    Brian: Yeah, I mean, I, I am sort of like a lone wolf type of personality, like  mm-hmm. Because I don't have a, a big circle, so I have to be, the eyes behind  in the back of my head in some ways. I, I'm try, I try to be cognizant of all my  surroundings whether, if I'm in a different country or a new situation, you know,  I, I just yeah.  

    Julie: So is the  

    de is the default, like to keep you safe and there's a lot of strength to this  because [00:55:00] it, some people need to need more of this, right? But I, is  there is that the default? Like you kind of go in assuming that someone wants to  hurt you? Okay.  

    Brian: No.  

    Julie: Okay. 

    Brian: I think when I was, when Bethany and I first started dating, I was  completely open and full of love and ready to give love and ready to receive it.  And it wasn't until she started I, I don't know if it was malicious, but she started  doing things that were hurting my feelings. And then I was just expected to get  over them, like as if they were nothing.  

    And they have,  

    Julie: okay, so it, and then so what happened is, is this kept happening, kept  happening, and then so your brain starts making sense [00:56:00] of it as well.  She's just trying to hurt me. I'm being hurt. I'm, I'm trying so hard to  communicate what's hurting and it's still happening. And so the way that you  made sense of it was.  

    She's, she just wants to hurt me. This is malicious. And maybe that's not how,  how all of you made sense of it, but enough of you made sense of it in that way.  

    Brian: Yeah. I mean, it just, it just keeps happening so frequently anymore that  it's, it's it's almost like it's intentional.  

    Julie: And so then let's talk about then how that impacts you because it is very  different in, in a negative cycle. If you're getting the message that, Hey, I'm  hurting and I'm, I'm trying to protect myself and I'm trying to, you know, stay  safe with you, it is gonna be easier to be vulnerable than if you're getting the  message.  

    I actually just wanna hurt you. I have no respect for you. I have no care for your  [00:57:00] feelings. I mean, that is going to massively impact. How willing and  able your body is to be vulnerable. Nobody's gonna be vulnerable when they  think the other person genuinely wants to harm them.  

    Brian: I don't, I just don't think that she really cares about me, my daughter, my  dog.  

    It's just she's in her own survival mode of just her and our daughter. And she  just wants to protect her and our daughter and how whatever else happens.  

    Julie: So when was the la when was the last time that you, this came up that  you got this message that, here we go again. She does not care about us at all.  

    She cares about herself and she cares about our daughter. Did this happen in this  cycle that you were ta 

    Brian: it ha it happened on Christmas Day, it happened on New Year's Eve.  

    Julie: Can you [00:58:00] tell me what, what was said or done that that took  you there?  

    Brian: Yeah, like Christmas Eve, I had both girls and her family had, has really  no traditions. Uh, her friends didn't have anything going on and she was just, by  herself on Christmas Eve. And, and I, I went to, took the girls to a party and  came home, you know, read, read stories, filled the Christmas tree up and I was  gonna we had talked throughout the night of just like, how painful, like you,  you have like these.  

    Grandiose ideas of Christmas and family and the, the whole setting. And then  when you actually get to the, the day, it just feels really empty because I don't  really have any family anymore. And [00:59:00] we were very vulnerable with  each other that night. And I, I expressed a lot of my feelings, like through the  years and I really wanted to change the Chris Christmas tradition moving  forward, but I just don't have the numbers to do so.  

    And then I felt sorry for her and I, I felt empathetic and I, I wanted to make sure  that she didn't feel that type of hurt for the holidays that was so familiar to me.  And I felt like,  

    Julie: say that, say that last part again. Um,  

    Brian: I didn't want her like, knowing that she was gonna be alone. For  Christmas, I didn't want her to feel the hurt that was so familiar to me and other  holidays.  

    So I extended myself or was planning to extend myself to have her come over to  see like, the little kid early, [01:00:00] early morning magic of Christmas, like  on our daughter's face and just like, sort of feel like it was like a family type of  setting. Again, and I just felt like maybe it was in a text message, so it came off  differently.  

    But I just felt like it, she came off as tough. Like, I can, I can deal with it. I'm, I  can handle it. So I didn't invite her, but I, I ended up  

    Julie: Is that the first place where this kind of, this got triggered where  

    Brian: No, I, I, I felt fine. I felt fine going into Christmas Eve. Got it. And  Christmas day. And I knew that the shoe was gonna be on the other foot. 

    Soon enough because both girls were gonna leave at noon. And then I knew that  like she would've been okay because now she's gonna take our daughter to, her  family stuff. And then I just sort of felt like forgotten. You know what I mean?  Where it's just like, now I have what I really wanted, so I'll just leave you on the  shelf.  

    Julie: And what did she do that [01:01:00] left you? Feeling forgotten?  

    Brian: You know, she didn't come back down for Christmas and, you know, I, I  watched, the football games and stuff like that and then I just sort of came home  and watched more games and sat in a massage chair and relaxed, fell asleep a  couple times.  

    Julie: Wait, I kind of missed a piece here. Where were you when you were  watching before you came home?  

    Brian: Uh, I was at a friend's house.  

    Julie: You  

    were at a friend's house? Okay. So she didn't come to the friend's house.  

    Brian: I wasn't expecting her to, I was expecting her to, open presents and, have  a dinner or something like that.  

    But I, I thought like once that was over, then she would come back over with  our daughter.  

    Julie: Okay. And she didn't come? She didn't come back?  

    Brian: No. I mean, it just seemed like she just made some excuses. Like her  daughter was going to be in bed [01:02:00] early and, I don't know, just sort of  him around.  

    Alright.  

    Julie: So you had, so if I'm just trying to piece all this together, you had already  told her at some point before this, like, this is so important to me. I wanna have,  you know, these special family involved Christmases and how empty that felt  for you to not, and then, so the very next day or whatever, she, she could have  helped you with that. 

    She could have shown up, but she didn't show up.  

    Brian: Yeah, I felt like it was, it was clearly communicated between the two of  us. Like, and I, I would've expected her to, to really let that sink in. That like,  not only did you not like the feeling, but I've explained to you that I don't like  the feeling. And then when the time came, it just she just didn't show up.  

    All right. You know?  

    Julie: And so then the way that you make sense of her not showing up is that  she just doesn't care.[01:03:00]  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay.  

    Brian: I question like the motivation going into these sessions is that she just  doesn't want to give up time with her daughter. And that's sort of the sole  purpose of working on us.  

    Julie: And so she has all these kind of ulterior motives. You know, she might  actually be out to harm you and she doesn't care.  

    That's really what you're sitting with here all the time. All the time this gets  triggered.  

    Brian: I don't know if it's all the time, but it's, it's recently, it seems  

    Julie: like every negative cycle. This is where you go, right? When things get  bad, this is, your brain goes to one, she doesn't care. Two, she wants to hurt me,  or she has these ulterior motives.  

    She's not really in this for me. You know, either way, we, we [01:04:00] circle  back too. She wants to hurt me here.  

    No wonder you're having a hard time feeling close. I'm not here to judge the  narrative, but I am here to say, look, if that's the narrative, how could you be  close to someone? No, nobody could be close to anyone if they deep down  inside of them, believe that that person wants to harm them.  

    Brian: Yeah, I could see that. Okay. 

    Julie: And so the cycle reframe is that it's not actually that she doesn't care or  wants to harm you, it's that she's somehow struggling with something and she's  trying to stay safe and, you know, there's more to it than that.  

    Brian: I would, I was hoping to have that kind of answer by now.  

    Julie: And so if you just think of, you know, some of the work we've done and,  and if you, if you don't, that's okay. I'm just assessing here and I [01:05:00] can  kind of go over to her and try to understand more about where she was coming  from. But I wanna know if you know, just based on the 10 sessions and what we  

    have learned, do you have any ideas of maybe an al alternate explanation of  why she might have not come after you had this conversation with her?  

    I wanna know if your brain is able to you know, maybe just come up with a  different possibility, even if it's at the end of the day, not accurate. Are you able  to kind of be flexible in that way? Like, Hey, maybe something different was  happening here. Maybe it's not the worst case. Most dangerous explanation.  

    Brian: No. I mean, she ex she explained that, you know, and I just sort of  stopped responding and, you know, she just wasn't. [01:06:00]  

    Julie: So she explained it, but you're better, you're not trusting it, you're, you're  not ready to trust that other explanation.  

    Brian: No, I, I am willing to trust it. It's like I, I just feel like for anything, like  everybody has a choice to show up and do something, and if you want it, you'll  be there.  

    You know what I mean? So if the whole narrative, the entire time is you want to  be back in this home, you wanna be back together in a marriage and in a family,  then you'll do whatever it takes to, to get there. And that's not the message that I  got.  

    Julie: So what you, what you trust again, and maybe not all of you, but in these  negative cycles, what you trust is that she's not really in it.  

    She doesn't really care about me.  

    Brian: I think that some of the messages that I get are that, yes.  

    Julie: Okay. So Julie here, so here's another version of that other focus, which  is, you know, I'm trying to [01:07:00] get Brian to own his mistrust, but he 

    keeps wanting to just shift it to her. I mistrust because those are the messages  she sends, which is a meaning that misses some big important pieces of this  puzzle.  

    It puts it all on her. It misses his role in these messages that are leaving him to  mistrust. It misses the self-work around his already existing tendency to  mistrust even in relationships outside of Bethany. And so if we have these three  pieces to the problem, one, the messages that Bethany does send that would lead  to mistrust, whether, you know that's accurate or not, she has a role in that too.  

    Two. His own predispositions based on past relationship experiences and  trauma that set him up to so quickly go to mistrust. And then three, his own  poor negative cycle behaviors that [01:08:00] contribute to Bethany's feelings  that manifest as messages that leave him mistrusting. So he only wants to work  on a third of that.  

    He only wants to work on the part that's on Bethany. That's why that small  phrasing was so important. It really shows where his headspace is. And I'm just  going to keep circling the wagons here to nudge him in to owning his mistrust.  And then I'm going to see if I can take them just a baby step further, which is, is  your brain at all open to the idea that maybe there's another two thirds of the  problem here to look at that you, you know, your, your resistance talking about  here?  

    Alright, so let's go back in, right? So when these things happen. When these  things happen, when you, when you feel let down, basically when you feel let  down, your brain just goes, your body and brain. They just trust that it goes  right to, she just doesn't care,  

    Brian: I guess. Yes.  

    Julie: Well, you tell me. That's what I'm hearing. I [01:09:00] don't know that  you would get so triggered if that wasn't the case. Right. I guess maybe in other  times when you're not going into cycles that you can kind of see it in a different  way. But if we're just talking about these cycled moments, it sounds like that's  the place you keep going back to.  

    It keeps going back to she doesn't care and to be honest with you, there have  been a lot of messages because that's what negative cycles do. They send wonky  messages.  

    Brian: Yeah. I mean, I think that's accurate. 

    Julie: Okay. And, and maybe let's just, you know, put, put some words to that.  Um, to get it, to get it out, which is, hey, you know, there, there is truth to the  fact that in, in these triggered moments, my brain in pretty quickly goes to you  just don't care.  

    Brian: Do you want me to say it out loud?  

    Julie: Yeah. [01:10:00]  

    Brian: When we get into these moments, I, I feel like your actions and words  just sort of exemplify that you just don't care.  

    Julie: So notice how you wanna, notice how you wanna shift it over to what  she's doing. And I'm trying to get you to just kind of stay with your own  experience.  

    Brian: Oh, I see.  

    So I jump the gun and say. That just, she just doesn't care. And that's my, my go to thought in these situations.  

    Julie: And here's the deal. I don't really believe this is true, but it might be true.  

    My job is just to help clarify what is true and what isn't true. And what is true  for you is [01:11:00] however it happens, that's where your brain goes. And of  course it's not, it's not safe for you if that's where your brain goes. What would  be so bad about her? Not really caring about you? Okay, Julie here. So now that  I have him taking some ownership of this kind of reactive meaning that he's  making, that probably isn't completely accurate.  

    You know, we're gonna learn now the next piece, which is what is so safe for  Brian about coming up with the scariest explanation possible to make sense of  all this, that Bethany just doesn't care or wants to hurt him. Now, if this is the  truth, that he's reading it right, that Bethany just really doesn't care, or doesn't  indeed just wanna hurt him, then it is safe for him to see this and get out.  

    There's wisdom in that. But what if it's not true? So listener reflection here.  Think of your own scary explanations. Do you [01:12:00] have a tendency to  make sense of your relationship problems in the scariest way possible? Like  maybe your partner just doesn't care, or even maybe they just wanna hurt me.  And when you don't have any other way to make sense of it as maybe a pattern  we're stuck in, it just feels really easy to go there. 

    Alright, well let's go back in for now. Why is that painful? Why is that so  painful that you react?  

    Brian: I guess you, you sort of get made like a fool. Because if I feel like I'm  giving my 100% and whatever that looks like to not have reciprocity, you just  feel slighted.  

    Julie: And then what's it like for you to feel slighted and like a fool?  What's so bad about that?[01:13:00]  

    Brian: I guess you feel like taken advantage of or you're you're not worthy? I  don't know. Maybe even in some, maybe some instances like unlovable or  something like that I don't,  

    Julie: okay, so the, all of this, that, that sounds like a pretty painful place, right?  When you get, so if we're just organizing this, you get messages that whatever  she's doing or saying she doesn't really care about you, and there's layers of, of  heard around that.  

    But one of the layers is, I, I feel like a fool. I feel like I'm being taken advantage  of. And then that takes you to where alone. Um, what's so bad about that? If we  really kind of get to more of those deeper emotions,  

    humiliated, um.  

    Brian: Yeah. It's humiliated, you know, it's, it's past traumas too. It's, you know,  it's, it's all the above, you know.  

    Julie: So when,  

    you know, when in your life did you feel humiliated [01:14:00] and like a fool  and slighted?  

    Brian: Oh, I don't know. How much time do we have?  

    Julie: One example, we don't have to dive too far deep into it.  

    I'm just trying to understand when you did experience this in, in the past, what it  was like for you to sit in that it doesn't just end with, they see me as a fool, or  I'm being seen as a fool, or I'm being slighted. It, it ends with what that was like 

    for you in that moment, what the pain was. Nobody is gonna thrive in a moment  when they feel like a fool or taken advantage of.  

    Brian: Probably, probably the, you know, the issues that with my mom, you  know, like the, the demise of that relationship. You know, I, I felt like she  intentionally and purposely, you know, just tried to hurt me,  

    Julie: and whoever protected you from that.[01:15:00]  

    Brian: Um, my brother, my grandmother that wasn't the first time that my  mother did that to a family member. So I think my grandmother aided and, and  protected me in that because sh she had done it to her and my mother did it to  my grandmother. So, you know, she knew what it felt like and she could  understand it.  

    Julie: What did it feel like? What does it feel like for a little boy to feel that  their mother is intentionally wanting to hurt them? I mean, it doesn't get a, a lot  worse than that for a child.  

    Brian: It wasn't when I was a child. It was actually like right before we got  married. Okay. So Bethany, you know, understands like all the feelings and all  that behind that.  

    She was, she was there, which is just sort of like the [01:16:00] text messages  sent on Christmas Eve. It's just like you were there, we talked about it. How do  you not understand this and why do you, why did you do that?  

    Julie: Okay. So whatever these feelings are around getting dropped, getting  betrayed, getting feeling like, she's, you're intentionally being hurt by someone  you rely on for comfort and care, whatever these feelings are.  

    That's what gets tapped into when every time you get the message from her that  she doesn't care about you they, they stem from relationships in the past. They  stem from relationships with Bethany,  

    Brian: all the above.  

    Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.  

    And then that's a painful place. And so now I wanna know, you know, and the,  and then the way, again, the, the way you make sense of this pain is [01:17:00] they really do want to hurt me at the worst and the very least, they don't care. At 

    the very worst, they're actually actively trying to hurt me. Right. And then how  do you stay safe from that?  

    What is your reaction  

    there? What do you do?  

    Brian: I guess just isolate myself and  

    Julie: is that when you, you strike, strike out and say, or I, I should say, lash out  and say something mean or push her away, or get your stuff and go  

    Brian: I mean, I've definitely said mean things to people.  

    Julie: What, say that again.  

    Brian: I said, I've definitely said mean things to people when I've, you know,  felt those emotions.  

    Mm-hmm. Um,  

    Julie: I, I wanna know what you're, what you did in this cycle you know, when  this is happening. So you're saying whenever you find out she's not coming in  this moment, you didn't really lash out in this moment. You just, what kind of  [01:18:00] stewed on it and felt, sat in the pain?  

    Brian: Yeah, I would say.  

    Okay.  

    Julie: All right. And so I, I think probably that's when you go into, you know,  your, your thoughts just really. Start taking on momentum around the belief that,  look this, here we go again, this is just more proof that she doesn't love me, she  doesn't care about me, and I've just gotta get out of this.  

    Brian: Yeah. Okay.  

    Julie: And that's your safe  

    place. 

    That's what keeps you safe from feeling as if, in believing that she really does  wanna hurt you and how painful that is.  

    Brian: Yeah. And then it, it just compounds, you know, in this, you know, this  two week process, it's just been that, that thought has been validated probably  four times over [01:19:00] at this point.  

    Julie: And this, and it, it does, you do believe that, you know, you have shared  some of this with her, right? That you've shared with her how painful it is for  you to not feel cared about.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. But have you shared with her about how in that pain, one of the  ways that your body tries to stay safe is by going to the narrative that she just  actually does wanna hurt me. That's your way of protecting how painful it feels,  

    because I think that what happens for her is that, you know, when she's getting  these messages from you, that's the way that you view her. I don't know if she  knows a whole lot about why you go there. I don't know that she really sees that  as a way that you're trying to keep your head above water and [01:20:00] stay  safe.  

    It's like that narrative has an easy solution. There's a real easy solution to this  person actually wants to hurt me and doesn't care about me. What is that very  easy solution  

    Brian: telling me, proving to me that it, that's not the case, you know?  Julie: No.  

    The solution is, is to get out for you. If that is the absolute truth, that is the truth,  that is the case, that she truly does not care about me.  

    The solution is very simple.  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. It's Right,  

    Julie: The problem is, is that we still haven't figured out how accurate that  explanation is.  

    Brian: You have me confused. 

    Julie: Okay. I'm sorry. Lemme tell. See if I can be a little bit more clear here.  When you get triggered  

    The narrative is clear in your brain.  

    She doesn't care about me and the reason that your brain goes there. [01:21:00] Because if that's true,  

    then what, what are you gonna do If that's true?  

    Brian: I guess try something different. Move on. Not, I guess quit putting  myself in that vulnerable spot to be hurt again, you know, hurt. And that's sorta,  

    Julie: it gives you, it, it gives you kind of like, it gives you permission to, to  stop it. It gives you permission to make the pain go away.  

    Brian: Yes.  

    Julie: And, and again, I'm, I'm, you know, I don't, I don't think that, I don't  know how much she's, how much of this she actually sees.  

    I think she gets different messages around this narrative. That she is bad and  doesn't care about you, and just doesn't love you and just wants to hurt you. I  don't think that message lands well on [01:22:00] her. But I also think that your  body has a good reason for trusting that narrative, and one of those reasons is  that it gives you permission to get out and get out of the pain.  

    Brian: Yeah. It's  

    Julie: your way of staying safe. And so I want you to share that with her, that  this is a, you know, a safety strategy for me is to, is it's not conscious. I don't  believe that you're deliberately doing this right. Which is making her the  uncaring, bad, bad guy here. It's not my job to. Tell you that's not true.  

    I can help you explore some other alternative options, but it is my job to help  me, to help us all understand the very good reason that narrative exists to begin  with. Because it's an [01:23:00] unworkable narrative. If you really, truly  believe that she doesn't love you and doesn't care about you, it the, the  relationship is unworkable. 

    And if she has to be in a relationship where she's seen as the bad guy and  unloving and in con constantly kind of interpreted through this lens, it's not  workable on her end.  

    Brian: Yeah, I can see that.  

    Julie: Okay. So I want you to share with her that this narrative isn't just random,  like, you know, you don't wanna take accountability or whatever. It's a safety  strategy.  

    Brian: Do you want me to say that out loud?  

    Julie: I want you to say it out loud because I want her to know a little bit more  because I'm, I'm pretty certain that's not what she sees in these moments. When  you're saying get yourself and get out, I don't think that she sees that you're  really just trying to keep yourself safe from this pain that you've been carrying  around for a very long time.[01:24:00]  

    Brian: Yeah. I would say that when I remove myself from the situation, it helps  me to heal and feel safe.  

    Julie: And part of removing yourself from the situation is assuming the worst  from her. Assuming the bad intentions.  

    Brian: I wouldn't say that I assumed anything. I, I heard them from my own  mouth or from her mouth, or.  

    Julie: You've heard her say very clearly, I don't care about you.  Brian: No, no, no. Okay. No.  

    Julie: Right. So if she's not saying that clearly, then we have to assume that  your brain is filling in the blanks. You're interpreting actions and words in that  way. I think what you're telling me is it's very difficult for you to interpret it in  any other way.  

    It just, it, it seems like that is the, a that has to be the truth. There's no other  explanation here.  

    Brian: [01:25:00] Yeah I, I would say it's maybe 80, 90% accurate. 

    Julie: And again, I, I trust that you have good reasons for trusting that message.  Your body trusts the message that she does not care. She just really, truly, at the  end of the day, she really just doesn't care about my heart, about my feelings.  

    I trust that you have good reasons for going there. That's what negative cycles  do. They communicate. I don't care about you, but I also trust that there might  be a different explanation  

    Brian: from within me.  

    Julie: No, I, I, I trust that there, that maybe there's an alternative explanation  that isn't, she just doesn't care.  

    I don't think you see that you're not, I don't think that [01:26:00] you have good  reason to buy into that idea. You trust your experience.  

    Brian: Yeah, very much so.  

    Julie: So you trust the  

    lens that you've always kind of viewed these things through. I mean, whoever  helped you kind of understand more about your feelings and trying to stay safe  from painful emotions, and that's why we go in and do these things in these  negative cycles.  

    Whoever helped you kind of see things through that lens. Nobody, so you  Brian: I was just  

    gonna say, just myself,  

    Julie: right? So what you've done is  

    you've done what humans do, which is we try to make sense of these things that  go wrong in a way that can help us feel safe. So when you can make sense of a  situation as this person just doesn't care, they want, they, they're out to get me.  

    It's a, it's pretty easy to go. Yeah. So I just need to get away from this and go,  you know, find situations that are actually safe.  

    Brian: Yeah. 

    Julie: And so let me, let me check in with you, Bethany, like, what is this  bringing up in [01:27:00] you?  

    Bethany: His explanation, you mean?  

    Julie: Yeah, like just kind of seeing a little bit more around, you know, what  you see in the negative cycle is you're the bad guy, you're the bad one.  

    I mean, you've said that multiple times and he just sees you as like malicious  and is it, are you able to see something new here? Or, or, how's this hitting you?  

    Bethany: It makes sense that how he, it makes sense for him to feel safe that he,  exits stage left, whether that's me exiting and, and him being by himself or, or  vice versa.  

    So that, that part makes sense. I also think it makes sense that,  Julie: but I wanna know, I wanna add a layer to  

    Bethany: how is it hitting that? How is it hitting me?  

    Julie: It, no, no, no. I wanna add a layer to that. It's not just that it's helps him  stay safe to leave or to go to a place in his mind where he's leaving.  

    It's that before [01:28:00] that. It's the other person is the bad guy, the other  person is out to get me. Like, do you see the link between you being out to get  him in his mind and that kind of leading to a safety strategy for him? For sure.  Okay. And, and has that been apparent to you before now that I'm the bad guy  and he has to exit, that there's a good reason that there's some safety in making  you the bad guy?  

    Bethany: I think up until, up until our, up until these sessions? . No, it didn't.  Okay. Make sense. Okay. But going through these it has made sense and I've  recognized that when he becomes non-communicative or, makes me leave or  whatever, I, I recognize that that's his safe space.  

    Julie: Yeah. So let me just ask you this.  

    If you had like a, a person in [01:29:00] your life, a friend or, or a person, a co  a, you know, authority figure at work or something, and like you really truly  believe, like, you know, this person really is out to get me. They really, I mean 

    that, that happens in the world, right? People Yeah. Have reasons and they  wanna harm us.  

    What would you want to need to do to keep yourself safe in that situation? Sure.  You would wanna leave. Exactly. You'd wanna get out of there, right? And so  I'm not saying that you are that person, but I'm hoping that you can recognize  this Absolutely. Does make some sense here. It does. Yeah, it does. And I want  you to tell him that that does actually make some sense to me.  

    I can see that that make, that makes more sense than just, when you just see him  say, get your shit and leave.  

    Bethany: It makes sense to me that when you have that, that narrative, it's, it's a  safe space for you. To exit.  

    It makes sense to me. [01:30:00]  

    Julie: And I would like to see, I would like, you know, this, step two of this is to  figure out like what's happening on your end that, these messages are being  sent.  

    How can we tweak this? 'cause I really don't believe that that's where your heart  is. I just don't. Not but I also believe that in negative cycles, you know, when we  don't know how to communicate through this stuff, it does send the message.  

    Bethany: Sure.  

    Julie: And Brian, I also believe that you came to this relationship.  

    You know, I, I believe that there's plenty of things going on on her end that are  sending the messages. It's, you're not crazy. But I also believe that there is some  of that narrative is a bit of a default on your end that we might wanna look at.  

    Brian: I think in this relationship, yes. After a certain point, like once we were  about to be married, that's sort of when [01:31:00] I feel like if I could dig that  up, that would be when it started. Because it, every single time after that, after  that, it just seemed like too convenient to not be true in my own mind, that she  is out to get me in some way or she doesn't care in some way.  

    Julie: So some people might have this happen, right? This same exact scenario  and their brain might go to, look, they're just incapable of being of intimacy.  That's what's going on with them is they're just kind of emotionally broken and 

    they're not deliberately wanting to hurt me, but I still can't stay in this  relationship because they don't have the capacity to show up.  

    So I need to understand why your brain doesn't go there. Your brain goes to No,  they deliberately wanna hurt me. I wanna understand more about that.  

    Brian: No,  

    I, I do feel that the, what you just mentioned as well that they are in, that she  isn't incapable of recognizing [01:32:00] the hurtful things she said or have  done, whether it be actions or words, and she's just not able to see that it is  hurtful even when it's explained to her in plain words.  

    Julie: Right? And so the only other place you go after that, if, if, yes, if she can't  do it, then it goes to this place where she actually deliberately wants to hurt me.  And so I need for you to see that not everybody goes to that place when they're  being hurt. Not everybody makes sense of it as they deliberately wanna hurt me.  

    Some people do.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: And I  

    wanna understand why, why that is your end game. Why that's the ending place  for you. That okay, none of this makes sense to me in any other way. So the  only explanation is, and this is your nervous system in these tricky moments,  right? It's not even, it happened so fast, it's not even a [01:33:00] conscious  thought.  

    But where your nervous system always goes back to is, this is deliberate, this is  malicious, and I need to understand why we end there.  

    Brian: I think it's a condition response to the trauma. Um,  

    Julie: I believe that too. So I wanna, so going forward here, my goal with you is  to understand how we might shift that narrative a bit. Because if we can shift  that into a different perspective, then maybe that will help you feel a little more  safe because it's unworkable to think our, my partner deliberately wants to hurt  me. 

    But then I also, on the other side of the equation, I've gotta shift her words and  behaviors. So those messages aren't coming through that trigger that place in  you to begin with. Yeah. Do you see how I'm working with both sides here?  

    Brian: Yeah, [01:34:00] absolutely. I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been looking forward to  that portion of it because I would like some kind of response instead of this  stone space.  

    Julie: I wanna help you with that but we can't forget the other piece of it, which  is maybe being able in these moments when you get triggered, getting to the  point where you might be able to step back and see it in a different way. It's  hard. Your nervous system so quickly goes to malicious, and I wanna see if we  can do some shifting here to get your nervous system to go somewhere different  in, in the service of creating new outcomes.  

    Not in the service of just explaining it and saying, oh, this is why it is, but you  know, we still continue doing it. I wanna do new things. But part of doing new  things is shifting some of your narrative around. It's, it's reframing the  [01:35:00] problem. We're gonna reframe it at from, she's malicious to, she gets  hurt and goes into protective and defensive mode.  

    I get hurt and go into protective and defensive mode, and then our wounds are  just bumping up against each other. Okay. All right. Well, we're gonna meet  again this week. Let's try to get some more momentum going. Again, I'm not  asking for anything more than 10 sessions. If after that 10 sessions you guys  say, Hey, I think we're getting somewhere, let's, you know, go for a couple more  or whatever, then we can be open to that.  

    But you're gonna benefit from it. Okay? So let's just take a breath with that one.  You know, what we heard today was the deep, powerful wound that can keep a  couple just permanently stuck, the narrative that my partner is out to get me. So  

    we explored how Brian's history from, you know, the childhood events that ha  have [01:36:00] happened in his life and the stuff that's happened between him  and Bethany.  

    It, it's conditioned him to interpret Bethany's actions as malicious. As I said in  the session, I had to level with him. Nobody can be vulnerable with someone  that they truly believe wants to harm them. This is truly unworkable if he  believes Bethany is out to get him. So I've gotta move him away from that  narrative if that's gonna happen, you know, ultimately I'm here to sell that  narrative and he's has to choose whether or not he wants to buy it. 

    Okay? So the real breakthrough today was understanding why his brain goes  there. It's a way that he is learned to stay safe. And then the way this shows up  and this version of their negative cycle, which is so common for them is, step  one of the cycle, Bethany as a function of already the unsafety in the  relationship, you know, says or does something to let him down, whether it's  intentionally or not.  

    And then [01:37:00] Brian's nervous system says, alarm and coming threat.  Which comes from this meaning that he is making, which sounds like this is it  dropped again, this is the proof. She doesn't care. Maybe she's just out to get me  and there's just so much pain for him around that meeting. His body knows that  place to be left alone in rejection and pain, and his body says, no, do not go  back there.  

    And even though it's a scary meaning, it does feel safe on some level because it  gives him really clear permission to run. There's a clear villain if someone does  wanna hurt you, of course you run and find safety. So that fear and anger urge  says Get out, escape. Then it comes out to Bethany, like, we'll just get your stuff  and leave in this aggressive way, which of course, doesn't land on Bethany.  

    Well, and even in here for the last hour, you know, he's not interested in talking  about any of his role here, that he doesn't trust that approach, yet his nervous  system just. Trust staying fixated on Bethany. And again, this is really  [01:38:00] unconscious. He's not doing this consciously, but his nervous system,  just trust, staying fixated on Bethany is the bad guy, and here's why I need to be  done with her.  

    And then of course, that terrifies Bethany and leaves her feeling misunderstood.  And then her next move in the cycle is she reacts with just trying to clarify  which matters. But they're both missing the root of the problem, which sounds  more like on Brian's end, my body goes so quickly to get scared that you don't  really want me.  

    And I have so much pain around that. Can you help me here? Can you see me  here? And of course, Bethany needs to be there and to hold that if he delivers it  in that way before she goes into explaining her intentions. Does need to happen,  but again, we have to hold each other one at a time. And then again, next week  we're going to move Bethany away from the place where she either just shuts  down or keeps trying to show Ames wrong about her and we're gonna move her  into a place where she NSAID speaks her truth with [01:39:00] clarity and  health, which is going to sound like I do understand your pain, but at the same  time, I'm not okay with this way. 

    You view me, I'm not okay Always being the bad guy in your eyes. It makes it  impossible to feel safe and close. Alright, so for your homework this week, I  want you to think about a time when you felt deeply hurt by your partner. What  was the story that you told yourself about their intentions? Did you, like Brian,  just assume they wanted to hurt you?  

    And if so, what did that story give you permission to do? Did it say, okay, it's  okay to leave or yell or shut down because they just wanna hurt you? Is there  another way to maybe make sense of that behavior, not just in that moment, but  in the bigger context of the relationship and what these negative cycles have  been communicating?  

    Alright, well, we would love to hear what comes up for you as you listen. So  please send us a voice note or an email to support at the secure relationship, and  your story might be featured [01:40:00] in a future episode. So thank you for  joining me today. Thank you to Bethany and Brian for your vulnerability. This  is the messy, difficult work of challenging the narrative that just keeps us safe,  but also keeps us lonely and in conflict.  

    Wouldn't it be nice to get out of that and start doing new things? So until next  time, take care of yourself and your relationships.

 
Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/
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