Session 12: The Very Good Reasons Why The Avoidant Partner Avoids

Nov 25

In this episode

Julie Menanno turns the lens around to understand the experience of the avoidant partner. Through a conflict over picking up their sick daughter from daycare, she shows how Bethany's genuine attempt to help gets misread as control, leaving her feeling like the bad guy. The session unpacks the protective logic behind avoidant attachment—why withdrawal can feel safer than engagement—and builds empathy for the fears and past wounds driving a partner who so often looks like they simply don't care.

Key takeaways

Avoidance is a protective strategy with real origins—not a character flaw or a lack of love.
An avoidant partner's attempt to help can be misread as control, deepening the cycle.
Withdrawal often feels safer to the avoidant nervous system than staying engaged in conflict.
Understanding the 'very good reasons' behind avoidance builds the empathy needed to change it.
Being cast as the 'bad guy' reinforces an avoidant partner's shame and pulls them further away.

Session 12: The Very Good Reasons Why The Avoidant Partner Avoids
Julie: [00:00:00] All right, well, let's go ahead and jump in. So, you know, just to kind of, to reiterate here, what I do is work with triggers. The, the what's gonna make or break the relationship is gonna be how we're dealing with these triggers. Um, and how we deal with the triggers is going to A, help us not damage the relationship by going into these negative cycles.
And b, it's going to help strengthen the relationship so you have fewer triggers to begin with. So we can jump into anything that may have happened in, you know, the last couple days since we met, or we can just see what happens in here, see if any triggers come up in here that we can kind of understand better and do new things with, you know, new moves when we have these triggers.
And, or we can try to kind of talk about some of these old wounds and, um, to the, you know, to the point that we have a trigger and then we have to kind of pause. 'cause if I let you go forward. Into a negative cycle, then obviously that
doesn't really get us anywhere. [00:01:00] So, and I know, you know, Brian, we spent this session last time with you, so maybe there's some space here to work with Bethany.
Yeah,
Bethany: yeah. And I, coming into today, I, I had a, a thought because, you know, you had, we had talked about the Christmas Eve or the Christmas thing with him yesterday. Um, and like his perception and how there's only like one way to think about things, right. Where it's like malicious, I'm out to get him. I think that there's, there's truth to that from, from his perspective.
Um, but I think that there are, I, I'm not being malicious and something came up yesterday, and this is like another thing that, that we fight about is like, he thinks I need to have control of like everything, or more specifically our, our daughter together and. Oftentimes I'm, I'm actually trying to help him, but he doesn't see it [00:02:00] that way.
Um, so yesterday I got a call from daycare. She was coughing a lot. Wasn't eating, holding her stomach and her chest because like it was hurting her to cough. And they were about to go down for a nap. They're like, you don't have to come and get her, but if you want to, that's fine. Like, I knew had I had, if I would've had my own house, I would've stayed home yesterday.
Okay. And like worked from home or stayed home with her, but it was gonna be his custody night. And custody switches are easier if he picks her up at school. There's like no tears or whatever. And it's just really hard for me to work at my parents' house. So I took her knowing that there wasn't a fever and it was just a cough.
So anyhow, long story short, I went to get her, but I got the call from them. They left a voicemail. I called him to tell him this was what was going on, and he said, do you have to go get her? And I said, no, but I just don't think it's fair for her. She's three to be uncomfortable coughing at school and then moving into nap time.
You know, her coughing during her nap, affecting the other kids, or being other around the other kids. Like, I'm [00:03:00] happy to go get her now. You don't have to leave. I can sit at your house and wait for you to get home from work. Or I can take her back to my parents and then bring her back to you. I was like, but who?
You know, who's coming to get the older daughter after the school? And he said, you know, the neighbor. And I didn't really wanna have to have interactions with the neighbor, so I said, I'll just take her back to my parents and then bring her back to you. And then I, I'm. Get her out of the car. I come back here, he swings through the driveway and he was like, forget it.
Just take her to your parents. You get what you want. You can, you have control. You only want control, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like for me, I'm like, I'm, I'm legitimately trying to do something to save his day from being turned upside down another leave early. I have more flexibility where I don't have to be at work to do my work.
He does. You know, he wouldn't have to stop to do anything. And, and so he's, and then he was like, just keep her overnight. Like, that's fine. That's what you want. And then also in my head, I was thinking like, if she is sick, I can miss work. It's harder for him to miss work. So I would likely have to come back [00:04:00] here in the morning to get her assess the situation.
Do I have to take her to the doctor? Do I not? So I just felt like it was just easier for everybody, all the way around. And I wasn't trying to control the situation. I was truly trying to help him while also helping her. And it's, it's really frustrating because he, he feels, it's like this control thing when I'm.
Really trying to do what I think is right for our daughter, plus for the whole situation. And then the Christmas thing was a whole other thing. I went back to look at all of that, like all those messages. And it was just like miscommunication. I really think it was miscommunication
Julie: and some of that miscommunication, you know, seems to stem from this go-to that you are, you know, trying to control, trying to harm like these mal malicious and intents or at least
Bethany: Right.
Or if I wanted to be responses. Okay. Right, right. Or if I wanted to be here, I would be here. And I do wanna be here. Like, [00:05:00] going back to Christmas, I, I reread the messages and it was like, what's the plan for later? He was like, I don't think anything. And I was like, oh, 'cause that's not what you said the other day.
And he said, you know, he went into this whole thing like, I thought you were kidding about coming back. And I'm like, I would love to come back. But like, she hasn't napped. I don't think she's gonna last very long. And then he like, he like, shut down. And I was like, you know, I would love to, you know, cuddle with you tonight.
Whatever. He's like, I got my time with, with her, I wanted time with you. But at that point, it, it was like five o'clock, I don't know. And then he just went radio silent and like for me to pack up a 3-year-old on Christmas day, who's tired to drive, you know, 25 or 30 minutes. I just seemed like that wasn't also the right thing to do for her either.
Julie: All right. So what is it like for you to get, because the, what happens is, is you know, you're just trying to kind of, you know, if I'm just reflecting what you're telling me, you're trying to manage this situation in the best way possible, right? Manage [00:06:00] all the moving parts. Um, it sounds to me like in your mind you have his.
His needs, and they're also, but you know, the, the priority is, is getting your daughter taken care of and then bam, you get this message again that I'm doing something wrong. I'm kind of just trying to be controlling here. I'm, you know, what is that like for you? It's frustrating
Bethany: because I know my intent and I also know like how he functions too, in, in certain ways.
And so I'm, I'm just trying to eliminate aggravations and annoyances from him, which are, you know, interruptions to his workday. Crying babies, whiny babies, sick babies, you know, being up all night when he has to go and work, you know, with his hands and in a labor environment the next day. It, it's frustrating and it's sad because also in past practice.
Anytime any either of the girls were sick, I was always the one to [00:07:00] stay home because I have that flexibility because I still get paid if I don't go to work or because I can work from home. That's always been past practice and now it's like coming back to haunt me or, or be flipped, be flipped on me when like, that's always what we did.
Julie: Always. Okay. What do you mean? That's always what we did. Tell me. I don't understand. Like,
Bethany: when we were married together in the same house or we, we were still married. I see. Okay. When the older one was sick, I would stay home with her. Um, or when the little one was sick, I would stay home with her. So we, even before our little one, I would stay home with his daughter if she couldn't go to school.
Julie: So how do you make sense of this? How do you make sense of, of always kind of circling back to, I don't know, what are we gonna call it? Like I'm the bad guy here. Like I'm not caring about him. I'm not. I'm actually trying to hurt him. I know you don't believe that, but I'm trying to [00:08:00] understand how you make sense of where he's at.
Like if he would just understand me, if he would just see my good intentions and everything would be okay here,
Bethany: I feel like if he saw my good intentions, he would just say, thanks for, you know, considering my work and, and it's harder for me to have interruptions than you to have interruptions.
Julie: Okay. So I wanna know more then about what it's like for you, okay.
To not have your intention, your real intention, scrap the word good, but your real intentions. Yeah. Like, what is that like for you? It
Bethany: hurts, it makes me sad. It makes me feel defeated. It makes me frustrated. I wouldn't say it makes me angry, but I'll also say it's like I'm, I'm kind of numb to it at this point, where it's just like, oh, okay.
That's not anything new, so I'm just gonna, you know, carry on with my day. So as you, as
Julie: [00:09:00] you put all this to words, right, what comes up, how, you know, all these words that you just gave me, you frustrated, you feel sad, you feel resigned. I mean, I,
Bethany: I think because it's not new, it's hard to even get like a physical feeling's not attached to it.
It's not new. This, this.
Julie: Rhetoric is not new. All right. So I want you to just kind of close your eyes. You're, you're not used to, to checking in with the physical, you're used to just reacting so fast right. To the trigger. Right, right, right. You, your, your go to is trigger, bam. I'm threatened. Of course, I'm threatened.
There's no way I can feel safe in a relationship where I'm always going back to every, every, I never know. I'm always circling back to being the, the bad guy here and not being seen and understood. You can't possibly feel safe. So every time that you get that message, [00:10:00] bam, unsafe. And then your go-to is try to explain, try to explain.
It's not working. Something is, is not happening, that that's happening. That you're feeling understood. And so I want you to close your eyes and just as I say that and I map out this experience for you, like what happens in your body in these moments when Pam, here I am again, back in the box.
I mean, it, it, it feels def
Bethany: defeating and it makes me hurts. Go back. Hurts. You're, hurts, Julie: hurts. You're back into your head, right? Yeah. I wanna know
Bethany: you're saying, look, it hurts. It, it's, I don't have any, I don't have any physical and I think that that's because it's like con conditioned almost anymore. So there's not anything physically that takes place other than just
Julie: like, oh, something is physically taking place.
'cause I can hear your voice changing. I can, you know, it sounds like you're starting [00:11:00] to feel a little choked up. Yeah. So I just want you to close
your eyes and, you know, what would you give, what would you name that? Do you feel the choked up anywhere inside of you? In your throat, in your eyes, and in my throat.
And in my heart? Okay. So close your eyes. We're gonna hold there. You just wanna talk and explain it, but right now we're gonna sit with it.
And this is the place of pain, right? This is the, this is the heartbreak. Yeah.
Bethany: It's like, I, I need this like huge, like, it's like bubbling up. Like I need a, a
Julie: release of all of it. Right? So the release of all of it right now, just in this moment is sitting with it.
Bethany: [00:12:00] Yeah.
Julie: And, and giving it some space to be so we can take some breaths with it and we can listen to a little bit more about what it's needing.
Because if you're avoiding the pain in your body, you're avoiding the solution to the pain.
So what does your body do? We're getting more familiar with this, right? You're not used to sitting with this, right? So what does your body do to try to regulate this pain? Is that when you start trying to frantically share, tell him what your actual intentions are. Trying to convince him?
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, okay, so we know in the cycle, right? Yeah. That doesn't work. That's what you do so fast. That's your way of trying to regulate what we're sitting with right now. It's not working because instead it lands on him as, you know, hi. His experience that is driving [00:13:00] his behavior is not being validated.
I I, right. And I, and I'm not saying, you know, look, that's not that you're doing anything wrong. I'm just saying like, that isn't working. Right, right. He has work to do too with that. His work is to not go to the, go to these reactive places to begin with, but regardless, you guys are missing each other. And I wanna know when you stand up for that pain and say, Hey, this isn't okay for me.
It's not okay for me to constantly walk around feeling misunderstood and like unseen and, and put in this box as the bad guy. When do you just say that you're, you're just used to convincing him to see it differently. When do you stand up for that? This is too painful.
Bethany: I don't usually, I can't [00:14:00] remember if I texted you yesterday and said it, it hurts.
Did I say that or did you not read it? I don't know. I know this morning I texted him and I, I said that I, I feel dismissed and it hurts. Like my concerns or my gut instincts around our daughter or my thought processes on how to try to help him feel dismissed and it hurts and he is not seeing my intention.
So I, I did say that in some capacity today.
Julie: Okay.
And what happens when you say that? From my perspective, what happens? Mm-hmm.
Bethany: I mean, it, it feels good to say it, but then there, there's no
Julie: response. Okay. So you're reaching to him with your pain. This is hurt, hurts you, but something's going on with him. He's in a [00:15:00] state of threat. He's not able to hold your pain, right? So he's over here going, she can't hold my pain. He puts words to it.
You're over here feeling as if he can't put, hold your pain, but you don't put words to it.
And what comes up, just as you know, we kind of highlight that, that you, this isn't something that you
kind of share assertively, right? There's, there's, there's vulnerability that we need to do. You're trying to be vulnerable, but vulnerable doesn't work. And then there's also assertive, more assertive. And you know, what's not vulnerable or assertive is just trying, trying to stay stuck in this loop of convincing him to see it differently.
So what does healthy assertion sound like here?[00:16:00]
I mean, I, I I, I feel like I tried to be vulnerable
Bethany: and that's still that, you know, that that didn't work, right? So we know it's not working and I wanna explore more about, and like that's what he wants from me, right? Is, is for me to be vulnerable. And I, and I was, and it still fell flat and so I felt right was if you're vulnerable
Julie: and you don't get any response, I mean, it's, it's, you know what typically happens when we don't get a response to that is it's gonna do what?
Push you back into just trying to explain. Yeah. And I wanna try a third option here with, which is more of that healthy assertion. He gets assertive. He, he talks a lot about what you're doing wrong and how that's not working for him. And his assertion is more reactive. But I wanna, your assertion isn't happening at all.
I never heard you say, I'm not okay with this because I just quit. 'cause it doesn't matter.
Have you ever said, I'm not okay with this? Yes.[00:17:00]
And and it didn't, it didn't change the situation? No. Okay. But there's also some value, I think, to speaking your truth, because can we agree that this is a really disempowered place for you? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what would it be like right now to take some of that power back and just be really clear, this is too much, it's too painful.
I'm not, I'm not okay with constantly feeling like I'm put in this box of the bad guy or misunderstood, however you wanna word it. What is the wording that feels right for you?
I'll tell you, protest comes up actually. You're used to playing defense, and I don't want you to play [00:18:00] offense, I want you to play assertion right now.
Bethany: Yeah. But I, I mean, I guess protest means like, it, what I would wanna say would come out
Julie: very angry. Right? Right. You're used to, you know, there's either being defensive or there's going into blame and attacking, and I want you to instead do something different, which is just taking some ownership for your own kind of, I don't know, boundaries or limits in the world and limits in this relationship.
It would feel good to, to
Bethany: get it out there because I feel like I've been bottling that up for so long because he is, yeah. Like I, I, I don't feel a sense of, of power or what control or whatever when it comes to standing up for myself because.
Julie: Right. And so what happens is, is you're just scrambling around trying to make it work for him, trying to get him to be happy, trying to get him to see [00:19:00] it in a different way.
Correct. But we're not really talking about the fact that some of this isn't workable for you either. You need some shifts from him too. Correct.
And what do you think it'd be like to just say to him like, I, there are some things here that I'm not okay with. I can't keep going back to in these moments. I'm the bad guy. I'm the bad guy. It's not workable for me. It would feel good to say that It would feel like a, a relief. Okay.
Bethany: So why don't you try it and see what happens in these moments?
I can't always be the bad guy. I can't. It hurts. It's defeating and it's been going on for so. Long and there are things, there are things that [00:20:00] I'm not always the bad guy. Okay. And I, I think I push stuff down in terms of, of things that I'm not overly thrilled with you because it just has fallen on deaf ears for so long.
And so my, my goal has always been, as long as Ryan's happy, everybody's happy
Julie: and we can't do that anymore. It's, I balance and we can't do that that anymore. Okay. And so how does it feel right now just to, you know, I don't know what the reaction is gonna be from him, but just in your relationship with you, how is it to just speak your own truth?
Feels like a weight has been lifted.
You just showed up for your yourself and your own disappointments here and your own needs and your own unmet attachment stuff. Because to feel safe and close, you do have to feel [00:21:00] consistently seen and understood. You can't keep getting messages. You're, you're just out to get me. You're just don't care about me.
Like, that's not workable. We can find solutions to that stuff, but it's not gonna come from those messages. And Brian, you know, I'm curious to see how this is
landing on you. I mean, I know you can see the value in your own pain, but are you able right now to see the value in her pain?
Brian: Yeah, I, I certainly see the value in it.
Mm-hmm. Um,
sometimes I think in these situations. Where we go, like 1, 2, 3, 4. It's, it's protest standing up for myself, explaining the situations. It's sort of like, I would say tough for me to process
Julie: mm-hmm.
Brian: In, [00:22:00] in one breath because like, I don't, I don't know if I should play offense, defense, special teams in that situation.
I, it's, it's just so many emotions sort of coming out at once. I definitely see, um, I, I probably wish she was more able to show up like this in these situations as opposed to like telling me it's red when I'm staring at blue. You know what I mean? And, and that's sort of how I see like. Some of these explanations and so let
Julie: me, let me pause you here for a minute.
I'm gonna go back to all of this, but just in this moment, we are having a new way that she's communicating, and I wanna know if there's any success in that. Like, does that, how does that hit you? Just, you know, if [00:23:00] we just really narrow our focus down to her sharing how all this is impacting her, are you able to be open to that and kind of put your own stuff to the side a bit?
And if not, we need to talk
Brian: about that, that, that's exactly what I was thinking. Like if, if, if you just sort of like hit a stop sign with it and explained like how that's landing on you. I think, I, I don't wanna say it dismisses the approach to a negative cycle or the problem, but it's, it sort of makes you stop and go, okay, let's, let's deal with each other instead of deal with the problem.
Julie: Okay. So in the other way of doing it, when, you know, we know it's the same hurt she's experiencing, it's the same misunderstood, it's the same alone. And her other way of dealing with it is just to kind of tr try to convince you to see it differently. But right now she's sharing a little bit more about what's
happening [00:24:00] for her and right here and now that you, I think what I hear you saying is it does give me some hope that we could do this in the future.
'cause right here and now I can feel a difference.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so I want you to maybe just give her that feedback that, you know, I do see how this could be there. You are having some success here. You're reaching me. I'm getting it. I'm, I'm feeling you right now.
Brian: Yeah. I, I, I do feel that this way of communicating is more effective. Julie: Okay.
All right, so just, just again, to kind of, you know, organize this is that usually, you know, again, you guys are stuck in this place where Bethany, you're, you're kind of going into defense always, like trying to just convince 'em to see it differently, but we're missing a lot of your experience and this is your emotional engagement.
And sometimes emotional engagement is [00:25:00] vulnerable and sometimes it's more assertive. And we're doing the assertive approach right now and it's clear. It gives us something to work with. And that's, he is open to that right now. Wouldn't it be nice if we could do a little more of this outside of here? I don't, I don't know exactly what that would look like, but I know what it doesn't look like.
Bethany: Yeah. I'm just, I'm just sitting here thinking like of other. Instances or future instances where this would likely come up and what that would look like for me.
Julie: Okay. So what you're saying is, is look, you know, and, and in these moments, to be honest with you, I, I want the vulnerable approach to work. I want you to be able to, to not have to say, okay, hold on buddy.
This isn't working for me. Right. I [00:26:00] want you to be able to say, okay, hold on. This is one of those places where I go to misunderstood. Now I'm kind of feeling all alone with it. Let's just take a, let's just put a pause on this for one second. Kind of, both of us are going to, to the most threatened place possible, but you're saying to me, look, I have tried that and I have tried to talk about the hurt and it hasn't really helped.
Am I getting that?
Bethany: Yes. And maybe I didn't do it the best way. Mm-hmm. But I, I have,
Julie: I have expressed, so what's it like for you in these moments? Just, you know, just as you say, as we talk about, hey, I do try to get vulnerable, like, what's it like to get vulnerable and, and not have anything on the other end of that?
Holding it. It's, it's
Bethany: defeating and I think that that's why I just go numb [00:27:00] to everything. Or I don't have expressions because, or comments or anything because I just, it's like there's this wall that just shuts down
Julie: everything because no matter what, what is numb, um, help me understand what Numb is protecting you from.
What happens if you, you get vulnerable and you don't get that response that you're needing, that vulnerability isn't held? How does Numb protect you? What would you have to feel if you didn't go numb?
Sadness. Okay. Defeat.
Bethany: Okay. Um, failure in some way. Like I, I've, I've, I've failed again in that, like I'm failing him somehow.
Julie: Okay. So this is a pretty, pretty bad place for you. It's not just about feeling [00:28:00] misunderstood, it doesn't end there. It's also, I try to do the right thing, what I'm supposed to be doing here, and share that, that hurts.
And then I, you know, either get dropped or there's nothing there to help me with that. And in that place I feel defeated and I feel like a failure. Yeah. And so then you said, I go numb.
'cause What does that numb do for you? No, there's no pain. There's no emotional pain. It helps you avoid the pain. Yeah. He just sees you kind of shutting down on him. Right. Or like, I have no emotion. Yeah. But I just have just learned to let those things not affect me. Right. It, [00:29:00] it's not no emotion, it's actually a lot of emotion that is so big and powerful that I'm having to go numb to, to not have to feel it and, and to not have to be alone with it.
It's one thing to feel it right. It's bad enough to feel it, but it's even worse to feel it and be all alone with it. Right.
Bethany: And I think, I think some of that, like when our, our baby was little and we would argue all the time about her, or not her, but like things with her or me, my approach to parenting versus his, and you know, when you're taking care of a kid all the time, like I, I also, you know, didn't want her to see that me be like the emotion, you know what I mean?
I don't wanna have a, I don't wanna be crying in front of her all the time or whatever. So that numbness just shut all of [00:30:00] that down so that I could be stoic and the best mom I could be for her without bringing her into all of this crap that
Julie: we have. So this numbness has, has a, has had a pretty important role here.
It has kind of protected you from having to feel things that are too much right? And the consequences of that. Which is just the bad feeling to begin with and the loneliness in that and how it might impact your daughter, and then how you're gonna feel if she's impacted. Right.
And do you think you know that Brian sees
the pain in this numbness, or do you think he just sees you, you know, being callous and not caring?
Bethany: I think that's exactly what he sees. Like, I don't care, but I care so much. [00:31:00]
Julie: So in this misunderstood place is a lot of pain.
And when you don't have help with that pain and you don't know how to help yourself with that pain, you, your body, your nervous system, without even thinking about it, it just happened so fast. You're, you've built this skill of just going numb.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: But then in avoiding the pain, we're avoiding the solution to the pain. Right? Right. And I, I, I, I think,
Bethany: I don't know if this is right to say or not. So before
Julie: we go, before we go forward, I, I just want you to share that with him. That in those, in those moments, I'm not shutting you out. I'm trying to avoid all the pain around this misunderstood place
in those moments. I'm not trying to avoid
Bethany: you, [00:32:00] and I, I don't not care. I'm just trying to shut out the pain. And
it's not just pertaining to like these logistical, miscommunication conversations. It's everything. It kills me when I think you don't care.
Julie: So I want you to just say, you know, my body has learned how to stay safe.
Bethany: My body has learned how to stay safe by, by me going numb, Brian: it's a familiar place for me as well.
Julie: So if nothing else, we have a little shared empathy here. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Bethany, how does it feel for you to put some more words to that? And[00:33:00]
I'll be honest, it, it feels better
Bethany: for it to come out and to put words to it. I don't, I don't know how it's really being received though. Just like observing body language and whatever from, from him. But it feels good for me to put words to it.
Julie: So it, so part of it, it feels good. At least you're speaking your truth and gaining some, you know, self understanding here and being clear with him.
But then there's this other part of you that says, well, maybe it's launching me back into the same spot where I'm alone with it, which is what happens in the cycle. And so let me check in over here, Brian. I mean, I do, you know, see your body language is maybe a little closed off. Am I reading that right?
No, I wouldn't say [00:34:00] so. Is your heart feeling open right now?
Brian: I feel like you know it, it's sort of a breakthrough because it seems like we're like. Two magnets just like repelling each other in these negative cycles. And if we could approach things like this, I think that we would both see that
we're hurting in certain ways and we both care about the situation, but when she goes to this, like we're, we're like two negative poles touching each other.
We, we won't come close because she's shutting down and I'm shutting down. And there's no space to like really explore feelings about it. We're just so focused on the issue at hand. And
Julie: yeah,
Brian: it, it sort of, you know, it, I feel like it's [00:35:00] sort of a breakthrough a little bit. Um, there's been many of times where I just, I feel like I stare into this blank face that's just emotionless.
Mm-hmm. That sends me to all these triggers that we talked about, you know, throughout these sessions is she doesn't care. She's out to get me. She's the bad guy. She's this because,
Julie: and what happens in your body when you see the numb, when you see, not necessarily the numb, but the, the blank face, what happens in your body?
Is that a distressing place for you? The blank face?
Brian: Yeah, very, very much so.
Julie: Okay. And so just to highlight a difference here, I want you to just kind of check in with yourself right here and now. And you get some different messages from her. It's not actually blank, it's [00:36:00] actually engagement, understanding more, some more clarity around what's happening with her and her fears and what happens differently in your body.
Just right here and now.
Brian: I probably would feel in, in the, in a situation where it's going in a direction that if we would stop, I would be more empathetic towards her feelings and more open to, you know, solving them together as opposed to going in your room. And I go in my room like, it's just,
Julie: so this is useful.
I want, I mean, you're, you're, you're talking to me about hope for the future, but I wanna kind of move us just right now from the future to now.
Are you more open? Just right here and now. This present moment when she opens up to you emotionally, [00:37:00] does that open you up?
Brian: Absolutely, because Okay. That's, so
Julie: I want you to tell her that because I want her to have some success here that yes, when you open up to me like this, it does open me up and I wanna get better at, at, at us holding that in these moments.
Brian: I think if you would, you would open up to me more about your own feelings in this situation. It, it opens me up, one, to know that you care, um, two, that it, it, it bothers you. It, you have emotion, you have pain towards it, and you, you don't like the feeling and you wanna get back to a, a connecting like spark that we have.
Julie: Had, so Bethany, does that help that part of you, that kind of was worried that maybe this isn't gonna be successful, does that help you [00:38:00] feel a little more success here? It, it does, and there's not a but to this,
Bethany: I wanna know how to put it into practice where we, where like the Christmas day thing came up and yesterday came up.
Like, I wanna know how to put that into practice because, and maybe that falls on his end, like where, you know, well it falls on both
Julie: of your
Bethany: end and we're gonna, right. But I'm saying like, for him, not, like you said on Monday, like him not always going to the place of like, I don't care. That's what I meant by like his end.
And then, you know, my end
too. Like I, I'm in some certain situations like I'm logistical.
Julie: So let me ask, let me ask you this. What, right now, right? He, he is getting vulnerable because he's, he, it is vulnerable to put our own stuff to the
side and stay with each other. Yeah. And he's [00:39:00] doing that, right? He's, yeah. But your brain wants to leap away from that felt experience here in the moment and jump into, but the future, the future, the future.
And so what, what happens that it's hard to just kind of stay in this moment? 'cause that is what needs to happen in the future, is to stay in the moment, stay in the vulnerability. You, you get scared, right?
Bethany: I mean, I, I guess, I guess what I'm, when I, when I think about it, like I wanna go back to those two things and like know what we did wrong mm hmm.
So that we could fix those. So it's not like, I don't wanna stay in the vulnerability. It's almost like I wanna like a redo
Julie: of. Staying in the vulnerability is the answer. So why don't we just do it right now? Practice what you're wanting to do more of in the future. What is it like to hear him say, I'm open to this right now.
It does help me when you emotionally [00:40:00] engage with me, before you, your nervous system jumps out. What happens inside the part that can take that in?
The part that can take it in feels comforted and hopeful. Okay? And let's slow down with that because now you're getting a message from him that you're being understood. We start this off by not being understood. I wanna know what's different for you and your body when you get messages from him that he really is with you and understanding you.
It feels safe. Okay. So let's slow there and I want you to close your eyes and I just want you to tell me anything about safe in your body. I just generally feel
Bethany: calm and not on the defense like that heightened on the defense Julie: feel.
Bethany: Okay?
Julie: So I want you to [00:41:00] just tell me one thing, one thing in your body that feels calmer.
My chest doesn't feel tight. Okay?
Right? So let's just kind of sit with that lessening of tension, the relaxation in your chest. Just close your eyes and see if you can hang with that for a minute. So my question is for you now is like, what happens? 'cause once again, it's like, yeah, you jump out of the bad experiences in your body, but you also jump out of the good ones.
The fear comes in so fast. It's like lightning.
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: So he's over here giving you the experience that you're hoping for, which is to feel more understood and seen, and he's over there doing it. And then what happens that so fast you go into leaving the experience and savoring it here [00:42:00] and there's a good reason for it.
Right. I'm just trying to understand the very good reason that your nervous system goes out. What's scary? What's, what's scary about just staying with it in here? It won't, it won't matter. It won't do anything in to help the future or, yeah. I, I feel that way and I think that's why I went to like, how can we put this into practice?
Because what happens if you don't put it into practice later? If we just do it in here and it never translates outside of here, what happens?
Bethany: Then we stay in this spot and then, and then, and then we get divorced, and then we're sharing custody and then I lose my family,
Julie: all of that. Okay. So all the worst things happen.
And what's life like that there and what comes up as you just think of divorced and losing the family and all these horrible things?[00:43:00]
It's just sad. It's just sad. Okay. So instead of leaping out of the sad, I wanna sit with it for a minute and trying to kind of train you here to sit with your feelings. Your, your brain just wants to leap out of them so quickly.
Bethany: Yeah,
Julie: it goes feelings, fear of the feelings. Try to escape the feelings. And in this situation, the way to escape. Is to kind of make a plan for the future.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: This is the plan for the future. 'cause you can't really share what's going on with you and find a solution to the pain unless you can stay with the pain for a bit. Not indefinitely. We, we, you and I both have the same goal, which is the solution. I just have a different way of getting there. [00:44:00] Um, so this is a sad place, right?
It's a sad, dark place. What life is gonna look like, at least until you, you know, if this does happen and you get through the transition and you get through the grief, it's gonna be terrible.
Yeah. And your way of staying safe from terrible is to do what? Go numb or well go numb. Or a minute ago, you, that's when you go into the problem solve, spin around in my head. Try to put, make sense of it all. I mean, that's the power of your brain and, and this power in your brain is really useful for you in a lot of circumstances in life.
But in this relationship, we're dealing with emotions and we gotta do emotions. [00:45:00] So what was your question? You told me to sit in the sad. Yeah. So we're just, just, let's just hang out in the sad because I just wanna spend some time hanging out in the sad and linking the sad to your moves in this cycle, which is to go up in your head and logic and words and information.
There's nothing wrong with that. Again, it's just that when we're dealing with emotions, we need to deal with emotions before we go to that place of logic and solutions. And
you can blame my career on that one. Um, no, I think we all can relate to that, right? We have to kind of go back and forth between these different parts of our brain and it, it's hard, it gets easier and the two become more integrated over time.[00:46:00]
You're really speaking to me today. Help me understand that. What do you mean?
Brian: Just what you're saying is sort of how I feel that I think is I, I lay in the emotions and. And when I, I reach out to her to get, you know, validation of mine or hers. It just doesn't connect. And, um, her just saying what she just said, you can blame my job for that, is sort of like my critical thinking of, of a lot of stuff that it's just like she's just walled off.
She doesn't feel this, she doesn't feel that, but on certain things she does. And, you know, our, our child is definitely one of them, but in this time [00:47:00]
since she's been born, it's like she's trained herself to like only have those emotions towards our daughter and not anybody else. You know, and it's, it's, it's been like talking to a wall for.
Three or four years. Like it has no emotions. It's the same color, it's just the same. And I feel like in all of these sessions,
like, I mean, I feel like I've been, I've talked a lot and we've dove into me a lot, but I feel that's what we talk about is my emotions, and we're not coming back to validate them and you're not sharing yours, so we just go opposite directions,
Julie: right? Yeah. So you're saying, look, I, this is what I've been longing for this whole [00:48:00] time, is more emotional engagement here.
Not only her emotional, engaging with herself so she can share more, but also her ability to help me with my emotions and join in mind. And it sounds to me like you want both of you to be able to join in each other's emotions, but you need to see hers before you can do that.
Brian: It, that's like absolutely perfect.
Julie: All right. And so, Bethany, let me check in over here with you. Is, is this one of those times when you might be getting the message? You're the bad guy. I am just checking in. I could see how that might be the case. Not the bad guy, but the broken one or
Bethany: yes and no. And when as he was talking, uh, my head immediately went to defense. I will say that like I had some thoughts come up for that.
Julie: Well, I think there's good, [00:49:00] I think there's good reasons for that because what I'm really trying to do is get you guys to reframe this as not one of us is at fault.
One of us is just emotionally shut down and broken, or one of us just gets emotionally dysregulated. But that, a big piece of that is because of the negative cycle that you guys have gotten stuck in. It's a co-creation, not just one of you.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And that both of you are contributing to that. And, and so Bethany, one of the ways that you're contributing is that for some, for probably reasons that you came into the relationship with to begin with, is you learned
somewhere along the way how to be good at overriding emotions and pushing forward.
And again, there's strength in that. And then two, you have a job where you're rewarded for that. And then three. In this negative cycle, you've been, the, the need to numb has been [00:50:00] reinforced 'cause there hasn't been any other options and nothing else has really worked. Even when you've tried to get vulnerable.
It hasn't, it hasn't worked. And we can tweak that delivery and all sorts of stuff. And then Brian, over here on your side, the same, same, same song and dance, right?
You, you've had good, you came to the relationship with some ways to deal with your emotions that maybe weren't so healthy. And then on top of that, you've had to learn how to function in the world. Um, and then on top of that, all this stuff comes together between the two of you and creates this negative, these negative cycles, which then reinforces some of your emotional strategies that aren't really working.
Brian: Yeah, I, I would say,
Julie: yeah. So I really need to keep focusing on what, on, on both the self work part for both of you. And how these relationship interactions have also fueled these behaviors. [00:51:00]
Brian: I, I can certainly say, you know, my job has contributed to that. Um, I think that I am very callous and have a lot of grit and toughness strength, um, just in like my work world and being a landlord, like you just sort of know, whether it be from body language or text messages or just communication in general.
Like when someone's gonna take advantage of you. So I, you know, I know in those situations my head just goes straight to, uh, well, maybe I should file at the magistrate, or maybe I should do this. You know, it's just like that negative
thinking. And I, I know that I, in some of these situations with her, I know that I'm guilty of [00:52:00] going to that place, you know, right out the gate.
And I think it's the same for her as well.
You know, like when you hit on a key, you hit on a key point where you said you're rewarded for that type of behavior. So if you get the reward, so many
times it's, it's sort of like your default, um, when you, when you're dealing with, not, not just work people, but you know, in your own personal relationships.
I, I feel like. It would have to transcend in into the personal relationships because it's like, you know, you're a good dog or you're a good boy, whatever. You know, you keep doing it thinking you're gonna get the treat. So
Julie: Yeah. What happens if you are, you know, too [00:53:00] trusting Yeah. Of business situations, what
Brian: happens?
I was just, just thinking that, you know mm-hmm. You get taken advantage of and Absolutely.
Bethany: And I deal with that too.
Brian: Yeah. Like, you know, some, when some somebody says like, you have a good business or you have this, it's because of the toughness, it's because of, you know, your planning and whatever. And, and when you take that approach and you, you finally get like words of affirmation about it, then you internalize it, and then you take it in, into the home, you know?
And
Julie: yeah.
You know, a lot, a lot of times the strengths that the, the very things that help us be successful in other parts of life actually get in our way in the relationships. And yeah, the opposite of that too, sometimes people, you know, try to do more relationship skills in the, in the business world and that gets in their way also.
Brian: Yeah, [00:54:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it's, it's sort of like the, you know, biting the hand that feeds, you know, it like within your head. Um, like you became successful this way. So if it works here, but it doesn't, like the carbon copy doesn't lay over on, on, on a relationship. It just doesn't work. And when we started out with you, like when you said you made the move for a, a, like a, a lesser busy life, you know, you simplify things and.
I'm in that mode right now where addition by subtraction is probably better because some things about my work world I realize are not really making me happy. Um, and there's some of that that's [00:55:00] seeping into our
relationship because of the stress of it all and the, the constant obligations of everything that just never seemed to end.
And I look towards a more simpler life, um, like whether it's in divorce or you know, us working out
Julie: well. Those are some pretty deep and insights and it just tells me that, you know, some, maybe some new things are opening up inside of you as we. Bring more.
Brian: Yeah, definitely.
Julie: Emotional safety to the equation.
Yeah. So what I would like to see is as we go forward is just to keep building it up between the two of you so you can, you know, get stronger and hone more of these relationship skills so you don't have to exhaust yourself. You know, it's a lot to have [00:56:00] to run your relationship in the same way that you're running your business.
I want you guys to find comfort and solace in each other and not have to have those, you know, protective armors on to get through the, the world outside of here. I want this to be the safe, warm place to come home to.
Brian: I said that so many times,
Julie: so let's keep chipping away at it then as we go forward.
Brian: Yeah, like I, I think through this work and the other work that I've been doing personally and.
Through, you know, our other sessions, there's been like a, like a real discovery of like true self instead of like, uh, I like ideal self, you know, like what others perceive of you. Right, right. I, I feel like, like more, I feel myself like screaming out more [00:57:00] inside of myself to gravitate towards that person more than I want to, um, continue, you know, the person that I am.
Julie: It's almost like a, a spiritual transformation kind of thing. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: It's, it's been pretty eye opening lately. Um. One of the things that I've talked with Bethany about for years is like starting like a, like a nonprofit, like LLC or something like that. And instead of chasing the dollar all the time and
getting aggravated about all the ingredients that make me get that dollar, um, trying to help somebody [00:58:00] and, and walking into it knowing that I'm not gonna receive anything and, and in fact I'm gonna lose money, but what, what I, what I will get out of g you know, helping that person is more than, than $10,000 or $50,000 or whatever.
And I'm like, that's, that's really who I am. Mm-hmm.
Julie: It's beautiful.
Brian: Thank you.
Julie: That's the real you. Right? And it's easy to see what Bethany, what you love in him.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: All right. Well, you, you're saying a lot of really important stuff, Brian and I wanna pick back up on that next time, because all of what you're saying about this nonprofit and this beautiful idea is also about your relationship. [00:59:00]
And I wanna explore a little bit more about the connection between those two.
So, we'll, we'll do that next, next week when we pick back up. Okay. So, thank you guys. And, and just to kind of answer that question about what the future looks like and how we can do this, this is it. It's like, you know, kind of. Stepping back in these triggered moments and checking in and going, what is really happening with me?
We gotta be able to sit with the feelings before we can share the feelings. If I don't get you sitting with the sadness and sitting with the pain and sitting with the, putting words to that unmet need of I, I need, need to feel understood right now and in not feeling understood, I feel pain. So we can get you better at being more clear and vulnerable with him.
And then Brian, of course, the work with you and just in, you know, and when the interactions going from her feelings to you is to be open to that and vice versa. [01:00:00] And once we can do that with ourselves, it really makes it a lot
easier to do, to show up for each other. So, alright, well great work today and I'll see you guys next week.

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 12: The Very Good Reasons Why The Avoidant Partner Avoids

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Attachment Theory 101

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

Session 13: From Bad Guy to Bad A**: The Avoidant Partner Reclaims Her Voice

Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me