Session 10: Does it Get Worse Before It Gets Better?

Season 2Repair

Nov 11

In this episode

After a long holiday break, Bethany and Brian return having lost momentum, and Julie Menanno helps them make sense of a discouraging stretch. Brian feels checked out and wonders if the whole effort is insanity, while Bethany describes walking on eggshells, afraid to trigger him. The session normalizes how healing can feel worse before it gets better, and focuses on the repair work that keeps a discouraged couple moving forward instead of giving up.

Key takeaways

Progress in couples work is rarely linear; a low stretch doesn't mean the relationship is failing.
Long breaks can drain hard-won momentum—re-entry often feels clumsy and discouraging.
'Walking on eggshells' signals a nervous system stuck in threat mode, not genuine calm.
Feeling checked out is often self-protection, not true indifference.
Naming a hard patch as part of the healing process helps couples stay the course instead of quitting.

Session 10: Does it Get Worse Before It Gets Better?
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed couples therapist and author of the book Secure Love. So, I wanna start with a question, is there an expiration date
on old wounds? And what happens when you see your partner getting the comfort and care and empathy that you needed during your own crisis, which was, you know, could have been months or even years ago?
Julie: Well, that's exactly where we're going in this session today. So after Bethany's car accident and after I, during our session last week, really showed up for Bethany with emotional support, Brian really struggled with that. It was hard for him to see Bethany get the sympathy that she was getting for her trauma.
Julie: And it wasn't like he didn't want to see that. But what happened is it triggered. His unmet needs that he experienced months ago when he was this victim of this terrible, random, violent attack that left him with a torn bicep and [00:01:00] unable to work and really just feeling completely useless. So this situation for him wasn't just physically hard.
Julie: It crushed his heart, and he really felt alone with it. All then messages that he was getting from Bethany during this time, which of course Bethany sees it differently, but the messages that he was picking up were, well, you just have to keep going and just taking care of everything. You're on your own buddy, kind of a thing.
Julie: On top of that, his beloved grandmother, who was really the secure attachment figure for him, his whole life passed away, and then on top of that, he and Bethany were heading toward a, a divorce at this time. So as you'll hear this period of time is what started this pattern for him where he just so often goes to, I'm done, I'm leaving.
Julie: So this session is about what happens when that unspoken hurt finally comes to the surface. Alright, so before we get into our session, let's go to our listener segment for this week, and we're going to start with a voice note from [00:02:00] Tanya.
Listener Segment: Hi Julie. Thank you for everything you do on the podcast. I have really found it helpful and a way to understand what I go through in my relationship with my husband, but I have to give this piece of feedback because it really has bothered me throughout season two.
Listener Segment: And to a degree, it made me feel kind of bad. Um. I think in the commentary you've made in the few first few episodes, it, it was almost like a trigger warning of like, you know, things are gonna be said that are absolutely terrible and you might not relate, but you know, still, like, find a way to, to see
the relevancy of the discussion in your lives.
Listener Segment: And then I heard the sessions and was like, well, you know, this is on the one hand kind of similar to what I go through. And on the other hand, like, not even that bad. And, [00:03:00] and in the last commentary that you made in, I think it's episode eight, you were responding to a listener question and saying that you were looking for a highly distressed couple and that you thought it was important for people to hear, you know, what's possible for them because then maybe it'll give them hope.
Listener Segment: And then you did acknowledge that some people might be actually that. And, uh, I think just like that. Characterization of the couple that you're talking to. It just, it just ma I don't know. Like, it makes me, it rubs me the wrong way because it makes me feel like, wow, I guess I am that distress. Like, I guess my husband and I are, you know, this bad or, you know, like this distressed.
Listener Segment: And I just feel like it's, it's bringing up kind of like unnecessary judgment to the couple and, and it, and [00:04:00] to a degree like, it, it makes someone like me, a listener, it just feel like, whoa, like, um, not, not really great. Um, so I'm not sure if I was. Clear in what I'm trying to communicate. I hope I was. Uh, but just the feedback of like, maybe, you know, not doing those characterizations would be better because again, some of us do relate, like some of us are going through exactly what they're going through.
Listener Segment: Um, in my case, for example, we had in infidelity both ways, and we are working through it and we've come a long way. But, you know, it's pretty bad. It was pretty bad. And to, to hear like, like those comments being made, it just really feels like a put down. Um, so, you know, I hope that, that this doesn't. You know, I hope that this is actually helpful and doesn't just feel like I'm coming at you 'cause I'm not.
Listener Segment: I really do enjoy your content and your podcast and have found it tremendously helpful. Um, so I thought I'd share [00:05:00] this. Have a great rest of your week.
Julie: Alright, well thank you Tanya, so much for your voice note. I completely understand how, you know, things that I have said, um, especially when I'm
kind of speaking from my clinical hat have left you and maybe other people feeling put down or judged or characterized in a negative way or leaving you feeling like you're hopeless.
Julie: I apologize for my part in that. And just to zoom out a little bit, for the first season with Melissa and Drew. I'll, I'll be the first to admit they were less complicated couple to work with because they had fewer triggers happening in the session and in their home and their home life. And you know what creates more complication with a a couple is how many triggers are they trying to field?
Julie: How much nervous system dysregulation from these? Triggers are they trying to constantly field and the couples who have more of that are going to spend more time in a reactive, protective place. So when it was, when it came to season two, it just felt really [00:06:00] important to me to work with a couple like that because I know so many people out there can relate.
Julie: I've worked with many, many couples who on the surface they look like they're doing really well to their friends and family. Um, but behind closed doors, there's a lot of this really painful stuff happening and I really just wanted to reach to those of you who are in that situation and let you know it's not hopeless.
Julie: And, you know, you really raise a good point. Um, Bethany and Brian and their issues and their cycles, um, are, like I said. More common than most people realize. And we, me, nobody should characterize these behaviors that, that leave anybody feeling othered or put down. And, you know, it's, it's a tricky dance to at play for me to balance because I also don't wanna leave listeners feeling like I'm, I'm, you know, just sort of giving permission to some of this stuff.
Julie: So, um, I don't wanna normalize the behaviors is what I'm saying, um, because they really aren't healthy or ideal. But in the world we live in, they are common and people respond this way [00:07:00] when they're under stress or in pain. And without the tools to respond to that pain differently. And, you know, understanding that can really help us reduce shame and work towards the change that we're hoping for.
Julie: And that type of message is the, is one that I've been. Intentional about throughout the season. In previous episodes, you know, I've made a tried to make a point to remind listeners, listeners, to suspend judgment when we're listening to Bethany and Brian's negative cycles. And just for some insight, a lot
of my commentary this season has been in response to listeners who don't relate to Bethany and Brian.
Julie: So for you to listen and say that you do relate to them is really helpful for me. Um, so I do welcome more comments from folks out there who see themselves in this journey. Like I said, you know, Bethany and Brian re represent more, probably more couples than Melissa and do and Drew do. Um. So again, thank you Tanya for tuning in and thank you for, you know, still [00:08:00] getting something valuable from the podcast.
Julie: I hope you continue to listen and definitely send us any more questions, comments, feedback you might have, and I'm grateful to have you as part of this community and on this journey. And I hope, you know, really isn't ever judgment on my end when I'm speaking on the couples that I work with or, or just anyone who, who's listening.
Julie: My, my job is to just go below the surface to all of the common ground for everyone regardless of how the behaviors look, which is unmet attachment needs, and the emotional pain that those unmet needs create. Alright, well thank you so much for that question. And now we're going to go to Jasmine does. The patriarchy ever come up in EFT, or do you find that it isn't helpful to the process of healing negative cycles?
Julie: I couldn't help but wonder about that when Bethany described Brian demanding lunch and then criticizing the way that she made the sandwich. Okay. So [00:09:00] patriarchy and EFT. So yeah, we could address patriarchy if it comes up for them. You know, if that word has meaning for them or if some of the behaviors going on in their relationship, they're making sense of as patriarchy, I would need to address that for them.
Julie: You know, patriarchy is one of those words that. Can, you know, um, has, has different meanings for different cultures. Some cultures, the way that they're living, we might, in our Western world, describe as patriarchal, but that isn't the case for them. It's not a problem for them in the sense that it is not causing them to getting in the way of their emotional safety and closeness.
Julie: So let's say we are working with a couple and Matt. Is a problem, then I need to unpack that. What does that mean to you and what, what is are some behaviors that are examples of patriarchy for you? And in those behaviors, I'm always going to be going to the same places, which is what are the unmet attachment needs around this?
Julie: So when [00:10:00] Brian says, why didn't you make me the sandwich? And we're over here going, well, that sounds pretty patriarchal. I'm gonna under, you know, maybe say to Bethany, okay, so you're, you're describing this as this patriarchal stuff doesn't feel good for you. What is the message that you're getting when he's showing up in this way?
Julie: What is the message that you're getting when he says you didn't make the sandwich right? You know, that that leads you to this patriarchal place. Does it, do you feel like you're not an equal in his eyes? Yeah, I do. I don't like that. All right. Well, of course you don't. So what happens in your body when you really just sit with, with that and what's, you know, where does that go?
Julie: What's the emotional experience there? And then I'm gonna help her. I'm just doing the same processing. I'm just assembling all of that pain and, and organizing it for her and helping her put words to it. Um, so that, the idea is, is to pull Brian into that with her a, you know, activate his empathy response so he can see whether we call it patriarchy or not, how some of [00:11:00] his behaviors and words are landing on her and hurting her heart.
Julie: And then I might go over to Brian and I might say, what was going on with you with the sandwich? And meet him where he is at, meet him where that, the meanings that, you know, what trigger was he dealing with, that he felt the need to say that about the sandwich and unpack that and, you know. He might say, look, everybody else got a sandwich and I didn't get a sandwich and it hurt my feelings.
Julie: And kind of go in there and then help him put words to that. And then I'm maybe, you know, if this is a word they're using, I might say, is this one of those moments where kind of the way you're delivering the information might be coming from this sort of patriarchal place, or you're sending messages that you know, she's less than you see how she might be picking that up.
Julie: And of course, I give him the opportunity to say yes or no to that. Um, but it's just all continuing to unpack and explore it all so that they're all feeling heard and understood and validated and met. [00:12:00] And when that happens, people, you know, the symptoms of, of relationship problems, which is all the stuff you see on the surface and all these triggers, it starts to resolve because we're dealing with the root of the problem.
Julie: Alright, well thank you Jasmine for that. Wonderful, or those two wonderful questions. And now let's go to Rachel. Hi Julie. I've enjoyed listening to the podcast and thank you for what you do. I had a question regarding
learning the skills that you teach couples on fostering emotional safety. My husband and I have been together for five years and we have one daughter and one baby on the way.
Julie: My husband is wonderful, but does lean avoidant and I've been going to therapy for years to work on my anxious, disorganized tendencies and I've seen a lot of progress on my side. My husband is uninterested in therapy at the moment, but our relationship is US usually wonderful, simply because I've learned to regulate myself throughout the years and therefore I cause less conflict.
Julie: However, I don't think we've gotten much better at conflict when it [00:13:00] does happen because there just aren't many opportunities to practice it. I'm not sure if our relationship has truly improved or we've just gotten better at avoiding conflict. I almost. I'm always the one to initiate hard conversations, so I hesitate now to bring things up if there is an issue, and I know that most of the time my husband is content to shrug things off, change what he thinks needs to be changed and continue on with a positive attitude.
Julie: So my question is, how do you practice these skills if you don't experience conflict enough? Hard conversations, or me trying to find out his emotions on a subject don't often go well because he feels interrogated and doesn't know what his emotions are in the first place. How do you support someone and hold space for their emotions when they never show their emotions or know what they're feeling?
Julie: We have a good routine in our lives that works for us and, but I know there are good things that could be better. I just don't wanna try and dig them out and cause more harm than good. Thank you so much for what you do here. It's truly changed my life and I look forward to following [00:14:00] along with the rest of the seasons, Rachel.
Julie: Alright, Rachel. Well first I wanna say that this is extremely hard when only one partner is actively doing the work, you know, on their side and their own emotions, and the other one is not ready or is resistant to that. Um, very
painful. Um, you know, I'll just kind of address part of your question here, you said, so my question is, how do you practice these skills if you don't experience conflict enough?
Julie: And then moving into that 'cause of, it's kind of the same two parts of the same answer, which is how do you support someone and hold space for their emotions when they aren't showing their emotions or know what they're
feeling? So first of all, when you say hard conversations. Me trying to find out his emotions don't go well because he feels interrogated.
Julie: That is the conflict. So, um, that, that conversation, when you say we're not experiencing conflict enough, sometimes it's, it's hard to see conflict when it actually is there. The conflict being [00:15:00] you needing to feel more safety and emotional closeness to your husband, and he's not able to show up for that.
Julie: So, you know, one thing that I have a, a little, you know, um, tip here is that you can, you know, even if he's not sh fully sharing his emotions, you can kind of assume that. You know, we don't wanna put things onto people, so he always has the opportunity to say, no, that doesn't feel right. But we can assume, okay, you know, maybe there's something to this, that when he gets interrogated, what feels so bad for him, right?
Julie: There's the emotion. We just need to get words to it, which is, it feels overwhelming. I feel like maybe I won't give you the right answer, or I don't even know what's there. And it's, it's frustrating and you can kind of assume
maybe some of that stuff is happening, and that's where you can come in and do what I might do with a client, which is, is is this overwhelming for you?
Julie: Like, I, I get it. I see how bad this feels, that, you know, to be interrogated. Now [00:16:00] you're validating. Now you're helping him feel more seen and understood. And he might actually think, wow, that feels really good for her to see why this is so painful and, and help me put some words to that. And then he might be able to say, yeah, it does feel really.
Julie: Overwhelming. It does feel like I'm failing you and that is one of the reasons why I wanna pull back. And so there, you know, just maybe take that tip and, and see what you can do with it. See if that kind of opens up a little more space for everybody getting more in touch with their emotions. Alright, well thank you everyone for sending in your emails and your voice notes.
Julie: And please continue to just keep them coming. I'm really looking forward to reading more next week. All right. Well, let's hop into our session with Bethany and Brian. Well, how are you doing Bethany, after the event?
Bethany: Um, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm much better. I'm, I'm sleeping now. Good, good. After the weekend, so I'm, I'm sleeping.
Bethany: [00:17:00] Um, yeah, I'm not nearly as sore. My arm still hurts, but otherwise I'm okay.
Julie: Okay. All right. Well good. Hopefully that's behind you. Um. Well, you know, just to kind of reiterate, the, the whole goal of this work is to get each of you doing new things when you get triggered. You know, instead of going into
those places where you might get blaming or defensive or explaining or sarcastic, you know, we need you to get three things.
Julie: I would say clear, more clear, more authentic, and more vulnerable. And so I'm just checking in. Did anything come up, um, in the last couple days that we noticed something new happening?
Bethany: Well, in some ways I feel like I tried something new and maybe it was shut down a little bit, but [00:18:00] when we. When we were done last time, um, Brian had said several weeks ago, you know, it would be nice to be able to talk about these sessions after we're, you know, after we finish, assuming we had time.
Bethany: But, you know, for like two weeks we had our daughter home with us and so we just didn't have the ability to do that. So Monday we did, and I said, we have some time. Do you wanna talk about the session? And he said, for what? And I was like, I don't know. You, you brought this up before, like you would like to have time to talk about it.
Bethany: And I feel like we both have time, so do you want to? And he said, I'll be honest, I was a little aggravated at the beginning of the session for all of the sympathy you received around what you're laughing around your accident. He was like, I worked. In the summer when I had COVID twice, and I didn't get any sympathy for that.
Bethany: And that just like, it made me shut down immediately. Um, okay, what you said that you said, I worked in the summer with COVID twice, and I didn't get any [00:19:00] sympathy for that. And I do all of this other stuff and I don't get any sympathy for that. Um, and then, you know, you get sympathy. So we, we tried to carry on the conversation and I, I wasn't participating.
Bethany: Um, and he brought up some other, you know, old things trying to get me to answer him. Um, and at that point, I, I shut down. I did. Yeah. Um, and then like later that, or the next day yesterday, um, he had asked me about having more time with our daughter since we kind of had this like, interim custody agreement.
Bethany: And I'm not opposed, I'm not opposed to it. Um, but right now, you know, he, he's pushing for like a. Somewhat of a divorce agreement in place
should our marriage not work out. He talked about having a marriage agreement in place, should our marriage work out. And I, you know, he's like, you haven't responded to that divorce agreement.
Bethany: And I said, I just feel all this pressure, like, I, I have to respond because [00:20:00] you're ready to just pull the trigger should the counseling not work. And that causes fear in me. And I opened up about, you know, the, the, the custody piece given all of the past hurts regarding our daughter anyhow. And when I tried to, we talked on the phone last night for about an hour, and when I tried to explain to him, like, I put my, I put all of my feelings out there for you.
Bethany: And he said, well, that's irrelevant at this point. Like, forget those feelings. Forget those emotions. Their past we're talking about the present. And I said, yeah, but those past hurts. Like I'm, I'm trying to work through them with you and you're just negating them. So I, I tried, but I felt like they were.
Bethany: Shut down. You look like you have a different perspective.
Julie: Okay. So I, here, this is the place where I just wanna kind of, I, I can only do one at a time, right. Otherwise I have too much coming at me and I get confused. Um, and so what I'm hearing is that, you know, you tried to do something new, you wanted to talk about it, [00:21:00] and then what you heard back was, well, you know, I didn't get enough sympathy and I'm aggravated about that.
Julie: Yeah. And then that did what to you?
Julie: That closed you off? Yeah, it closed. It closed me off. And, 'cause what's the message you're getting in that place?
Bethany: That my, that it, that I don't matter. And I thought about it over the past two days too, and I thought back to like all the times where I've feel like I've tried to bring things up. Like, you know, whether they were work things or family things, um, and they were very quickly dismissed or not sat with.
Bethany: Um, and,
Julie: but this
Julie: is your, this is your way of reaching. You're trying to reach, and it seems like when you reach, you're met with some kind of rejection or
Bethany: Yes.
Julie: Not [00:22:00] openness, right?
Bethany: Yes, yes. And, and in some ways I feel like everything's, at times can be a competition, right? Like both of our, for instance, both of our jobs are stressful, but in different ways.
Bethany: I don't own a business I, or two businesses, I don't have employees who are on a, my own payroll. I will never know what it's like to, to have that responsibility. I know what it's like from his perspective being his wife all these years, but I, I will never walk in his shoes. And he had told me, you. Put the shoe on the other foot, or you will never walk in my shoes, so you will never fully understand.
Bethany: And like, you know, if I brought a work stress, it would be like, yeah, well my day was this, that and the other thing, or, and so it was just always like dismissed. So I just stopped sharing. And I think thinking back too, that's like where that no emotion comes into play that we talked about last week where I just felt like I'd be met with invalidation or rejection or whatever.
Bethany: So I just,
Julie: okay, [00:23:00] so showing
Julie: emotion won't really get you anywhere. So why would you, um, this whole thing about, you know, and for you it's like, I've got responsibility too. I don't necessarily see it as having more or less responsibility. Um, I do wanna empathize with him, but yeah, I can't fully walk in his shoes.
Julie: That's not really possible. Am I getting that okay? And so it doesn't really feel fair to you that it keeps circling back to something's not fair, something's not fair.
Bethany: Yeah. Like it, like it has to be a competition or it has to be, he has to have, you know, like I, I have, he has to go back and get sympathy for working when it was 95 degrees and having COVID, but at the same time I was pregnant and have COVID.
Bethany: Like, it's that stuff. Like, and, and the fact that it was, it just really hurt my feelings on Monday when he saw what I went through. I knew what I went through. Yes, all of that trauma will pass, but it just, [00:24:00] it really,
Bethany: really hurt.
Julie: Why can't we just, just kind of stick with this? Well, we can talk more about, you know, your feelings of unfairness around whatever that COVID experience was too.
Julie: But let's kind of give some space for this thing that we just went through
Bethany: a little bit. And I, and I'm like, you know, I, you could have said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. That's a lot. Right? But given the nature of your work, you probed a little bit more and you asked me some questions around it. And so it was like I got a little bit of attention, which I wasn't necessarily seeking.
Bethany: But I don't know. I don't, I'm just like, really? That, Bethany: that just really my,
Julie: well, it's something, I mean, it's, it's a big thing that would naturally warrant some attention. Right. You know? Right. Rolling in your car three times, having this level of an accident. I mean, we're not talking about like a, you know, fender bender or something like that.
Julie: So it makes sense to me that, that, you know, would warrant some attention. And so you're saying, look, I don't mind if we go over and talk about the [00:25:00] COVID thing. We can give that attention too. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say, but it also makes sense that given the context of the circumstance, that's kind of where we went.
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: All right. So let me check in. Can I check in over here? Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And figure out what, okay. So what is, what is coming up? You know, Brian, just as, as you hear her saying these things,
Brian: um. To be honest with you, I was, I was wondering if we were in the same conversation because I felt like it just turned a lot of details missed, but I'll, I'll, you know, give attention to it. Uh, it, it was, there was no jealousy. I think on my end of her getting sympathy for what she endured, it was, it was merely just like a, a memory lane for me of like, there were some times where,
you know, like last year I, I tore my bicep [00:26:00] and, you know, there was no sympathy empathy for anything I went through when that's all I really wanted was just something like you said to her from her in that situation.
Bethany: I feel like I did that. I'm not gonna jump in, but I
Bethany: feel like I did that in some ways.
Julie: Alright, so this is an example of one of those thousand live triggers that can come up in a session. And when, when Bethany jumps in here, and I have some choices, um, of what I can do with this, you know, I might say, hold on, Brian, something's coming up for Bethany that she needs to jump in and, and
leave him and go explore with her.
Julie: Um, the downside of that approach is that now I'm leaving Brian. And that's exactly what couples do at home. They, they get into a conversation and they jump into every trigger that's happening and every trigger that's happened in the past and the subject changes a thousand times and they just never really get to the heart of the matter, which is their unmet attachment needs.
Julie: And then they're leaving each other, feeling abandoned, nervous systems escalate and nobody feels hurt. Um, the [00:27:00] second option with that is I can. Just point it out to Bethany and just kind of gently say, you know, notice that, urge to dive in. And do you mind if, if you kind of hold that for now and we come back to it later?
Julie: And most likely Bethany is a more regulated client and she's going to be okay with that. She knows the drill, she trusts that I will come back to her if, if that, if she's needing that. Um, and then the third option is, is what I did, which is just kind of overlook it, um, bookmark it in my head and assume that it might,
she might settle herself and just keep going with Brian, which is what happened.
Julie: Um. Another thing is if it didn't go away, if, if she really couldn't hold that, um, and stay open to him because her nervous system is too escalated, then I would just gently pause Brian and say, Hey, you're doing a great job. I am going to hear everything that you're, you have to say you deserve this space, but something's coming up for her that she can't be open.
Julie: And do you mind if I pause you for a second and [00:28:00] kind of go explore what's, you know, how I can get her helped with whatever's going on with her so she can stay open to you. And then I'll go to Bethany and I'll say,
okay, what's happening for you that you're just having this hard time kind of holding this and your body just wants to jump in?
Julie: Um, and again, we're always dealing with the same thing, unmet attachment needs and all the pain. And that when Bethany is fighting to jump in, what she's really saying is, I'm not feeling seen right now. And that activates my nervous system and makes me wanna do. Anything I can to just get him to see me.
Julie: And since this is a strong pattern in their relationship, whether I grab it now or don't, it's gonna keep coming back up in these triggers over and over until it's healed. Um, and you can do this at home, you can also, you know, recognize when there's, someone's bringing in new information and you're gonna lose track of what you were talking about.
Julie: And you might just say, Hey, look, I wanna hear everything that you [00:29:00] have to say, but if I pause what I'm saying and lean into that, then I'm gonna feel like, you know, I'm unheard and alone with it. And that's not gonna feel good. Can we, I, I can do that, but can we come back to me or can we stay with me right now and then I promise to hear you later.
Julie: All right, so let's go back in.
Brian: It was,
Brian: you know, a traumatic experience or whatever for me, but it, you know, given the nature of our relationship at the time, it just, I, there was nothing really. To me in, in that, in that sense.
Julie: And what was she not doing that you were needing to feel supported? You, you're, you're telling me I needed to feel a little more support around that.
Julie: So I want to know what does a lack of support look like? Brian: Uh, just sort of like thrown out to face it all on my own. Julie: Mm-hmm. So can you give me like an example of that? Brian: In that current [00:30:00] situation or that situation we're talking about? Julie: Yeah. I'm trying to understand what you needed. That wasn't happening.
Julie: That's still, you're kind of still carrying around here because I trust that there's a good reason you're still carrying that around.
Brian: Well, I, I think when it happened, it was like, it was like last Christmas, everybody was sick, so we, we were planning to meet up with, uh, you know, friends and, and stuff to, you know, just to.
Brian: Have a drink or grab something to eat, everyone got sick. So it, it, it moved on. And then when I left the restaurant, I was attacked by somebody hit with brass knuckles in the eye and in the struggle. I didn't know this until a couple hours later, but I tore my bicep muscle, like wrestling this guy to the ground and like,
Julie: can you remind me who, who this guy was?
Julie: You don't know?
Brian: No, I mean, I, we eventually found out, [00:31:00] but Julie: I
Julie: see. Okay. But it was just, it was completely random.
Brian: Very, yeah. I, I've never met the guy before. Never was seen him. It was just like, I, I was just preyed upon, like they saw him in the camera. He was like waiting and, and, um,
Julie: and this was about a year ago?
Bethany: This was last January.
Julie: Okay. Yeah,
Brian: about 11 months ago. And, um. Immediately, I can't work. Um, I gotta go to the er, I gotta go get x-rays, all this stuff. And, you know, we weren't in a good place at all. Like we were just sort of going through the motions to keep
Christmas together for the kids. And, you know, immediately I'm, I'm outta work at like, like four months, you know what I mean?
Brian: I gotta do pt, I gotta do surgery. And, you know, along came with that like, you know, depression and just uncertainty and, you know, [00:32:00] being like having to pay all the bills. Like, it just sort of like things just compounded
for me mentally. And I've never had an experience where I felt like I was just completely helpless, you know?
Brian: And I was relying on others to basically make money for our family at this point. And thankfully I was in a position and it was just like. There was, there was, again, no contribution, really no sympathy, empathy. It was just like, I'm just, Bethany just basically was status quo. Like, I'm just gonna take care of our daughter and I'm gonna do as minimal as I possibly can for you.
Brian: And I felt like what you had shared with her at the end of our session, like, I thought I should have got something like that from my own wife.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: And instead, like, you know, it just eventually turned into, like we talked about, you know, her calling the police on me, you know, and I'm, I'm, [00:33:00] I'm in a pretty low point and she just kept piling it on.
Brian: That's basically sums it up. You know, that comment that we took from that conversation with you. But there was a lot more that we talked about. We were basically using. I thought last session was a good session and I thought we were using your tools and applying to some of the gray area that we had over the weekend.
Brian: And if I could be completely transparent about it, we started dissecting things and trying to be vulnerable, and she was the one who shut down. She walked out of the room, then I walked out of the room, then she got her purse or shoes and her coat, and it was like, she was like, I'm not answering any of this stuff.
Brian: And we, we moved on. So I remember saying [00:34:00] like, thank you for letting me share my feelings to you so I could just lay in them again while you, leave me here. Unresolved.
Brian: You know, they were touchy subjects, you know, and it's your, your voice was echoing with me of like, if you say this next time and she doesn't respond to it, like, let me know so we can keep working on it. And that's how I ended up feeling as we parted on Monday.
Julie: All right. Well, I think I have a, a decent idea of how, how this went down.
Julie: Um, this situation with the accident brought up a lot for you. You had an accident, you had a, you know, similar type of trauma, and you didn't feel supported. You guys were in a bad spot. You didn't feel supported. You felt like you just had to keep going forward. You didn't feel sympathy, you didn't [00:35:00] feel empathy.
Julie: And so to sit here and hear, you know, her, get this response from me, brought all of that up. That makes sense to me.
Brian: I, I did, you know, I, I wished exactly how you said it, like, very eloquently, very passionately. I, I, we stopped and I said, I'm jealous of that. I, I, I wanted that from you in that time.
Brian: And I think it was like misconstrued as like, like, let's push her out of the way. Let's take the spotlight off of her. Let's go back. To me, it wa it wasn't like that. It was just like those were some of the hurts and the pain, you know, that like in the very end of the demise of our relationship. That, that just struck a chord with me.
Julie: Alright, so here's where overall emotional safety comes in. [00:36:00] Brian's jealousy, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It, it exists in the context of their struggling, unsafe relationship that they both have contributed to. Um, you know, in healthy relationships where everyone's needs are generally met, jealousy has no reason to be there.
Julie: So what the jealousy is trying to say is, I'm not feeling seen, I'm not feeling comforted in my pain. And when I see you get comfort, it triggers that, it triggers my longing and that pain wells up. And I don't know how to talk about it just yet. You know, jealousy is, again, always about unmet needs. And so, um, he's saying, I, I just, I just don't know.
Julie: How to, how to express this to you. So when he's talking about jealousy, just remember the jealousy, like all painful feelings, is crying for some need that needs to be met. And we need to listen to that jealousy and not judge it and figure out how to get this unmet need met. So the jealousy goes away, and then here's how the [00:37:00] negative cycle plays out around this.
Julie: So my response to Bethany is the trigger. It reminds Brian of his unmet needs. His, and then that takes him to feeling unseen and not showed up for. And then these unmet needs are also have to do with these attachment injuries between the, you know, between the two of them in the past, which makes it all bigger and even worse.
Julie: And then that takes his nervous system to triggered and, and underneath the trigger is sad and hopeless and alone. And, you know, these, these feelings of hurt, they turn into attention in his body that say, say something, bring attention to this, maybe she'll hear you and, and your needs will get met.
Julie: Protest. And then we call this protective feeling, jealousy. The jealousy is urging him to take action to get the need met. And so he reaches out to her and he thinks he's being vulnerable. And [00:38:00] to some degree he is. Because even admitting to jealousy, especially given these circumstances, is a vulnerable thing to do.
Julie: Um, but he doesn't talk about the deeper pain. It's not really vulnerability 'cause he is not talking about the pain because their relationship is still learning how to do that. So he just say, says the word jealous and the cycle. And, and of
course that triggers Bethany's nervous system. That doesn't feel safe for her because now she feels alone with her need to be supported.
Julie: And it's like, well, if my need for support is just a threat to him and is gonna bring up his jealousy, where does that leave me? And then that takes her into her pain, lonely, sad. And then that turns into frustration and she says, wait, defend this. Get him to see differently so I don't have to stand here feeling alone and like my needs are just getting overshadowed.
Julie: And, and Brian said, you know, I think this was misconstrued. Well, it wasn't misconstrued. You know what he's saying wasn't [00:39:00] misconstrued that he just wants to take over. It was delivered as that, but it wasn't really what he was trying to say. And I hope you can see how this really isn't vulnerability. It's not likely a phrasing that is going to put her nervous system into openness and relaxation.
Julie: It's a cry for help, but it comes across as, and I'm jealous because how you've failed me not. And I'm jealous because we have created a relationship where neither of our needs are getting met. And so there's so much loneliness there for me, and how can we work together to get out of this so we can both feel safe and supported.
Julie: Again, he just doesn't know how to do that yet. Alright, well let's go to Brian. Back into Brian. I wanna give him some space to understand more about what's really going on with him and get more words to all of his feelings around this. Okay. So, you know, I wanna, I wanna always [00:40:00] work with when we're talking about these cycles here, when things don't land, right?
Julie: When someone brings up something, some pain or some kind of concern or some kind of need and it doesn't go well, I always wanna say, okay, well is it an issue of delivery? Is it an issue of reception or is it some of both? Because I
do want you to be able to reach to each other and find each other and feel held and supported in that place.
Julie: Um, but we do, so, you know, the only way we get there is to work on both sides of it. So can I just take a little bit of time to understand. About how maybe you brought this up and how we can possibly clean up the way that you reached for her if, if that's relevant. Sometimes we think we're reaching in a safe way, but we actually aren't.
Julie: And I don't know the answer to that question 'cause I haven't investigated it yet, but, sure. [00:41:00] Okay. So what, what did you say to her when you, you're, you're over here, you got all this stuff coming up, right? You're feeling, you know, let me, let me actually, before I understand how you, how you reach to her for help.
Julie: 'cause that's what's happening is you're feeling distressed and you're reaching to her for help. Um, tell me a little bit more about how this event affected you. You're getting this coldness from her, right? You're not in, in this moment. Back in the past, you're not getting support, you're getting indifference.
Julie: I mean, help me understand what message you're getting from her. She doesn't care. She, she just is concerned about her own self or,
Brian: yeah. I, I, I, I think all of those come into play. Um, you know, I'm trying to like gather my thoughts like currently, but also put me back where I was, you know, 13 [00:42:00] months ago.
Julie: So let, if we just kind of stay with, in the past, I'll, I'll get us back into the present. But if we just kind of stay with the past, what's the message that you're getting here?
Julie: You are, you know, you've gone through this physical trauma and an emotional trauma. I mean, that's terrible to be randomly attacked. I can't even imagine. And. You're not, you're not getting this message that, Hey, I'm here. How can I help you? How can I help you carry this burden? And Bethany, I know it's not a straightforward for you, but you know, this is the perception at that time.
Julie: And you're, you're not getting a message of, I'm here, I'm, how can I help? How can we bear this burden together? You're getting what message?
Brian: Just basically, you know, figure it out on your own and, and, you know, in the, in the meantime, you know, please keep taking care of me and our, our child.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: And figure it out.
Julie: [00:43:00] So it's
Julie: like, not just figure it out on your own, but you also need to keep up with all your responsibilities here.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, you just sort of, you feel like you're
Julie: on your own, right?
Brian: Devalue.
Brian: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm just like a walking at m or a mule. If, if I can't carry the load, then what good are you? You know?
Julie: All right. So just as you put words to that, what good are you? I'm just a mule. Figure it out on your own, just as you say those words to me. What happens inside?
Brian: Just, you know, just like an empty feeling,
Julie: you know? Where does that empty sit inside you?
Brian: Probably my head and my heart.
Julie: Is it like a what, what's going on in your heart?[00:44:00] Brian: Uh, it's a little, you
Brian: know, your heart breaks a little bit. It's like when you're, you're at such a vulnerable state at that time. You know, you would expect the, the people that
you think love you would, no matter what, would, would pick up the slack and. And try to take care of you in some way.
Julie: So even as you put words to that right now, that sadness that you felt in that moment, in this period of time and the emptiness and the loneliness starts to come alive. Yeah,
Julie: there's, you know, these are some, some wounds in here that I don't know what they need for healing, but we do know that they're there and they're not healed and they got tapped into the other day.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, that was like the cherry on top for the year, you know, [00:45:00] even though it happened in 2024, it was like my grandmother dying, being the executor, dealing with family fights, running my business through this, you know, the busy months.
Brian: Buying and flipping my, my grandmother's house, all the things that happened with it, all the bickering between us eventually, you know, deciding that separation divorce is like the, the route we're gonna take. And then, like, that was it. It was just like, how much more could one person possibly deal with in a calendar year?
Brian: And it wasn't even a calendar year at that point. It was like nine months. You know, I, I felt like the pain of all of it was on my face, uh, in my body language. Um, the stress of it all was in my, you know, in my body language, in my, on my face. And it [00:46:00] just, she just couldn't connect the dots to come to come meet me, you know, to alleviate some of the stresses or, you know.
Brian: Soften me a little bit to the point where it's like, I'm here for you no matter what. It was just, I was just like on my own doing things and I do realize that some things that she couldn't have possibly helped me with, but if I could have just had the feeling that she was there with me no matter what, it probably would've done some good.
Brian: But,
Julie: so this sounds pretty, pretty intense and pretty terrible to me to go through this year and what you went through. And it wasn't just the year, it was a couple of years. It was three years of building up and then to have this thing happen. I mean, that's a lot.
Brian: Yeah. I just couldn't [00:47:00] get past. It's very similar to how our relationship.
Brian: Is this, when I, when I said like, there's one thing to deal with, then something new happens. Like for instance, with say last week, you know, we're working through our sessions, you know, trying to build back better with her and or us. And then that takes a back seat to the, the car accident. It's just, it's just con like constant events and that is life.
Brian: But for me it was just too many blows consecutively, too close together that just put me into like mentally, physically, and emotionally and a tailspin. And it's just like you get into survival mode. Um, trying to juggle everything and just was a really, it was a really tough year.
Julie: So let's just sit with that for a minute.[00:48:00]
Julie: Like I said, it sounds pretty awful to have to deal with all of that. And then, and then it sounds an, another piece of it is, you know, I could be wrong here, you can correct me, but the person that has been in your life to help you with all of this, the whole time is now gone. Your grandma.
Brian: Yeah. It, it really wasn't until, um, that I was home alone in recovery, like post-surgery, that everything that was going on finally slowed down and there was just so much noise and nonsense.
Brian: And I realized like for those nine months, I never got a chance to grieve her death. And then like maybe three weeks after surgery, um, be, and Bethany and I split up. So then I had another, you know, huge hold to fix and I had a new [00:49:00] set of, um, responsibilities and it just compounded. And then I like physically not able to be able to pick up my baby, put her in the car seat, you know, it, everything just compounded to, you know, to like, almost like the brink of insanity, you know?
Brian: And, and then like the one person I wanted to call to soften me or, or empathize with me, wasn't I, it was like, it was over, it was final. Like, it, it made me really realize that like there's no more, you know what I mean? Like, there, I'm never gonna get a chance to call her. I'm never gonna get a chance to go back up to her house and, you know, just spend an hour or two just unloading, you know, my emotions and thoughts.
Brian: And after dealing with that whole nine month period, you know, then I, I'm [00:50:00] separated. Divorce is looming, custody is, is in front of us. I'm,
I'm still having to be a constant for my other daughter and make sure that she's, you know, her, her emotions take a front seat to mine and it just was, it just was really tough, you know?
Julie: Yeah. It sound, it sounds like these things in isolation, like you may be able to have been able to handle, you're a fighter, right? You're a survivor, but then all of a sudden they start just piling up. Piling up. And if I'm walking in your shoes, I, I imagine I would finally get to the end of my rope too.
Brian: Yeah. You know, like, you just, you just get tired of fighting all the time. Like, and, and being strong. Like, whether it be for yourself or your kids or your business, or your daughter or your wife, you know, it's, it's just
Julie: Was that a scary time for you? [00:51:00] I mean, in addition to feeling alone and dropped and all these other, you know, out of control, like, was it also scary, like not knowing?
Brian: Yeah, very
Brian: scary. You know, it was very uncomfortable to be in the unknown of like, is my arm going to be a hundred percent in four months? Is it gonna be 50%? Is it gonna be a year? Is it gonna be never the same? You know? Mm
hmm. And when I rely on my body to work all the time and, and live the lifestyle that I live, that's pretty scary when it's sort of taken away from you.
Brian: And I never experienced anything like that, you know, like you got aches and pains and, and things of that nature, but.
Julie: So on top of all this stuff that's happening in the present, now you have to worry about what's the future gonna look like, because what happens if your arm doesn't get back [00:52:00] to normal?
Julie: What would that, what would that mean for your life?
Brian: A lot of changes. I would, I would think, you know, I would have to like shift my focus to being solely managerial instead of, you know, being like a mixed use in my, you know, my ventures.
Julie: What would, what, what would be, you know, I think what I hear, and you can correct me, is part of you is saying, well, I guess I would adapt, but what, what would still, there must be a downside for you to fear that, right? What would be the downside of having to just be the manager?
Brian: I just enjoy that. I, I enjoy the grind.
Brian: I enjoy the, you know, like the getting sweaty, getting dirty, you know, being in the mix [00:53:00] of everything. Like I just feel, I would feel like less of a
Brian: man I would
Brian: think.
Julie: Okay. Yeah. Okay. So
Julie: there's a lot on the line there. A lot on the line in this. I mean, you're telling me like, look, it was affecting my relationship with my daughter. I know I have to show up for her. It was scaring me because it could have potentially affected my quality of life, what I enjoy doing. And on top of that, I would've felt like less of a man.
Julie: And on top of that, you were probably in pain. And on top of that, you guys are struggling and you lost your grandma and you have to take care of all that. Yeah. And then on top of everything else, you're entirely alone with it. Like, who's helping you emotionally? Who's
Brian: No, nobody was, you know, she wasn't, I, I, I didn't wanna bestow that [00:54:00] kind of responsibility on my, at the time, 11-year-old daughter, you know, she doesn't, I need to be strong for her.
Brian: She doesn't need to be, you know, vulnerable for me. You know, like, I have to make her feel safe. Um, you know, take, take care of all her obligations, you know, it, it just was tough that the time of it, you know, you can't even shovel the snow on your own walkway. You know, you have to like, call people and I couldn't run like the most I could do for my surgeon.
Brian: He said I could buy a recumbent bike and that's it, you know. And I, I tried to be involved managerially, but by the time like 2, 3, 4 o'clock came around, like the pain of just like, you know, hitting speed bumps and stuff like that was just became so overwhelming [00:55:00] that it, like I'd go home and just sit, sit on with ice for two, three hours and, you know, I just, I just wanted to be numb, you know?
Brian: So I, I started drinking, uh, alcohol more and just like escaping mentally from
Julie: you were trying, uh, that was your way of trying to help yourself with all this. I mean, we know it wasn't healthy and, but
Brian: No, I know it wasn't,
Julie: but it was still, that was the way you knew to cope with all of it. That tells me how much pain you were in.
Julie: You were just scrambling around trying to find any kind of relief.
Julie: Nobody thrives when their plate is that full. And on top of that, they're really just feeling alone and unsupported. And you know, for whatever reason, getting these messages that you have to keep going. You have to keep going. [00:56:00]
Julie: Your, your value is, is solely in your ability to provide and you can't provide. And was there a part of you that was telling yourself your soul value is in providing, is there a part of you that believes that?
Brian: Yeah, there was,
Brian: there was a lot of signs, you know, that things became more clear to me that, like, I think Bethany's dad said to me like, when, you know, I was the executor of the estate. Um, you know, she picked you out of six siblings because you're the strongest, you're the strongest out of all of them. And like, I looked at them like, you know, I didn't see that, I didn't read between those lines, but like, I, I look back [00:57:00] in life and it's just like, I just, I've, I've always had to be that strong person when I would probably prefer to be vulnerable and maybe cry in the situation or just give up in the situation.
Brian: But like, I, I have, I have this like, I feel like I have this duty bestowed upon me to like, keep going for everybody else that isn't strong enough to do it. It ends up sacrificing sort of who I, who I really am. Sure.
Brian: And, you know, it's, it's, it's tough. Like as, as we approach like the holidays, like me and Bethany have just spoken, just like I just want to be done. Like I'm, I'm done with this year, I'm done working, I'm done with the hustle bustle and standing on the gas, but I [00:58:00] have to be strong to get down to my shop, to get everybody, get the car started in the morning, get the guys going, deal with all the customers and emails and everything associated with it when I just want to stay up till two in the morning watching Christmas movies.
Brian: And I, I just want a break, you know? And I, and I essentially got that break last year, but it wasn't in a positive way. Sure. You know,
Julie: it, it came with a lot of anxiety and.
Brian: Physically I got the break, but it emotionally and, and mentally, it was just two threefold of what I'm normally dealing with.
Julie: And how often do you put words to this and feel supported with it?
Brian: It was a lot of discovery of myself by myself. You know, maybe I [00:59:00] shared it with my brother or some friends, but you know, by that time me and her weren't texting, we weren't speaking to each other, we weren't hanging out. Um, and if I did reiterate how much I brought to the family, it was met with, you know, a downplay of what I, what I did or what I do.
Brian: And it was always like pushed down to like, well, I took care of the, our baby and I did this and I did that, and. It, it was almost like, like I deserved it, at least from her perspective. Like whatever I was going through, it was like, I deserved it.
Julie: What, what was that? How did that come across? What would she say that would take you there?
Brian: She would just refute basically everything I said.
Julie: Okay. All right. So you, so you've got all this going on, right? I mean, it's layers upon layers of [01:00:00] bad, bad stuff, right? You're in a bad, bad place this whole year, 2024, it sounds like the whole year was a bad, bad place.
Brian: 2023 was, was the bad year, and then it, it rolled into, you know, us separating, which it got worse.
Julie: Right? So this is the bad place. You're in the darkest place of your life. I'm guessing. I'm guessing that you're longing to. Connect with her, get some empathy from her, get, get some sense that she's kind of joining you in this, there's no avoiding a lot of this. I mean, there's things here that you can't control.
Julie: Right. But what you are needing is to feel joined in it with her. By her.
Brian: Yeah. And, and, and I think there were, there were attempts, um, by her to, to join me in some form or [01:01:00] fashion. And I think that because of what happened for so long between us leading up to that time, I had completely detached. And I did not want her to join me in that.
Brian: Like I, I had just sort of given up and I checked her off as just like one less thing to deal with and I'll deal with the. Other stuff on my own because I, I'd already felt on my own.
Julie: So eventually you just detached from any kind of expectation that was the safest thing to do?
Brian: Yeah. I think there were so many hurts up until that point where I had just given up hope that we would ever get back to what was specifically, I, I remember this, it's summer of 2023.
Brian: My, my brother and my nephews and my uncle, [01:02:00] we all went to, to dinner and, you know, we're rarely all together, at least on my side of the family. And, um, my uncle tried to weasel out of it and I, and I, I said, look, I'll pay for your dinner. I'll pay you for whatever you want. Just, we're not gonna,
eh, we're not gonna get these opportunities, you know, anytime soon.
Brian: You know, my nephews are approaching college and I think. Just sort of made it all about her in order to leave the, the dinner. And that's sort of when I said in my heart, in my head that I was like, I'm, I'm done with you. Like I'll, I'll exist with you, but I'm,
Julie: so again, we kind of circle back to that message that's, she's not really there.
Julie: I'm on my own. I'm on my own. You're all alone in this desire. You have to build this connection or, I mean, something was important about that. And, and again, something is important [01:03:00] about feeling supported in this terrible time. And you keep circling back to finding yourself, getting these messages that your needs aren't really important here.
Julie: You're on your own.
Brian: Yeah, I think so.
Julie: And then, so. You know, again, you have a lot of good reasons to go there. I mean, you're telling me, let me just say this. You have a lot of good
reasons to be needing support. Anybody would need support, whether they were aware of it or not. They, anybody would need support in, in these places.
Julie: These are the places in life where we need the most. There's only so much we can do for ourselves.
Julie: It's like one thing to, to suffer and the, it's another thing to suffer and be alone. I, I guess what I wanna know is, so, so this all comes up the other day, right? You, you hear me? You know, really kind of sitting with her in this experience of around the [01:04:00] accident and this bam, it brings you to what you were needing.
Julie: It brought up what you were needing, that longing in this place that you were in, that unmet longing. Yeah. And so in that place, what did I, I wanna know, how did you reach to her for help?
Julie: Is that when you said I got aggravated, is that,
Julie: um,
Brian: I don't
Brian: really recall reaching for much help. Like after,
Julie: well, after the session, you know, when you brought up this topic, you were reaching for help, you were reaching for help with all this.
Brian: Yeah, I was, I was definitely reaching for her to explain like how you delivered it to her was, was just sort of what I was looking for, like the whole entire time.[01:05:00]
Brian: Like some empathy, um, you know, or just like a. I just don't really fa, I don't see how you're in a favorable position in it. I don't know how you're dealing with it all. And it's like, maybe it's remarkable to sit back and see, you know, you navigate through it. Um, it, it can't be easy, but somehow some way you're stacking wind and working through it and it's just, you know, it's just amazing to see.
Brian: I guess I, that's, I think that's what I was looking for or longing for. Julie: I see.
Julie: Yeah. It was that peace about, look at you, you're still going and you've been longing to have someone give you that message. You've been getting somehow, some way you've been getting these messages. Like your only value is in what you're doing to provide and [01:06:00] you're hanging on and then all of a sudden that gets threatened.
Julie: That's devastating and all these other things, and then you're just, you know, in so much emotional pain and on top of that, you're alone with it. So what you're trying to tell her the other day is you're saying, I need some help over here. I needed help with that. I need, I don't, you need some validation.
Julie: You need some emotional support. Do, do you think that she knows, knows that? I don't know if she could see that in that moment.
Brian: I, yeah. I, I can't, you know, and I've said this a few times, I'm probably guilty of having everything in my head be implied, and I'm not vulnerable enough to spew out everything that's on my plate and how it affects me, because there's [01:07:00] just so many things to deal with. I can't possibly take the time to do so.
Brian: You know, I, I can't take two hours.
Julie: Whoever has helped you put this stuff into words, into vulnerable words, who's ever done that for you? You know, this, this language isn't intuitive, right?
Brian: Probably nobody, you know, no.
Julie: You just grew up being told, suck it up, keep moving, you know, whatever. I mean,
Brian: yeah, yeah. I mean,
Julie: even your
Julie: grandma who was very, very supportive, I mean, she probably didn't know how to, most people don't know how to explicitly teach people to.
Brian: No, and you know, I've, I'm certainly guilty of this as well. Like my upbringing is sort of who brought me, you know, to what I am today. And like, even though I'm a 40-year-old man, like I, I feel like I'm. I've been brought up in like the sixties and the [01:08:00] seventies. Like I have that same value system
from before where it's like you don't cry, you get up, dust yourself off, keep going.
Brian: You know, life's gonna throw these things at you, but you just gotta keep going. And
Julie: so that's a pretty stuck place to know and have. So have a sense that you need emotional help, that you hit a wall, you got so good in your life at helping yourself, but all the, it hits a wall and you know you need it, but you don't know how to ask for it.
Julie: You don't know how to get it. That's a pretty stuck place to be. Brian: No, no. I don don't.
Julie: And is it your fault that you didn't know how to really put all this to words and ask for what you were needing? Is that your fault?
Brian: No. I, I don't, I don't think so.
Julie: Of course not. Of course. It's not your fault.
Julie: And I I, and I think when we, and it [01:09:00] shows me your resilience, that you're, even though you're saying, look, I, you know, this part of me wants this help, this other part of me thinks I'm not really supposed to want this help. It shows your resilience that you're here right now.
Brian: Sure.
Julie: And I want you to maybe share some of this with Bethany. 'cause I don't think she got to see that the other day. I think this is what you were trying to say.
Brian: Yeah. I was
Brian: definitely trying to be vulnerable, but I wasn't trying to steal your thunder or take the spotlight off of you because what you went through was, you know, it was pretty traumatic and it was, it was traumatic for me to even. Witness what you went through and, and survived and essentially came out unscathed.
Brian: And then to think about all the what ifs if [01:10:00] you know our daughter was in the car, you know, how different the day could have been and our lives could have been moving forward.
Julie: So Brian, I'm gonna, I'm gonna p I'm gonna put a pause on you. Everything you're saying is super, super important, but I wanna just stay on track here because I don't wanna miss what feels the most important to me, which is,
Julie: 'cause I think, I think after this conversation, she knows you weren't trying to steal her thunder. I think that's clear just for me talking to you. Um, but I want you to share with her that, you know, that was, that that situation brought up all, all this pain for you and you just didn't know how to talk about it.
Brian: Yeah, it, it,
Brian: it was a trigger. It was scarring for me, and I just didn't know how to reach you when I was
Brian: [01:11:00] just drowning in it.
Julie: You weren't, there's no, there's nothing, no part of you that was trying to like, like you said, steal her thunder, steal the mic. Like it's just that it brought up a lot. You, you deserved help with that too, right? I mean, there's a timing issue here that we need to maybe work on, but you deserve help with this and bam, it all gets triggered by this pretty, kind of thematically similar event, right?
Julie: Someone out, out, completely out of your control. You kind of get, you know, violated by someone else's stuff and. On top of that, there's all this bad stuff going on. Right. And you do deserve help there. You just didn't quite know, you just haven't yet had the words, you haven't yet quite learned the words to, to say what you're needing, to be [01:12:00] clear about what you're needing.
Julie: And so then sometimes it comes out like, this isn't fair. Whatever. Right? Yeah. What is it like to just be really clear about that?
Brian: It feels good to get it off my chest. You know? I've felt like I've spent 10 or 11 months just talking to myself about it in my own head.
Julie: And wouldn't it be nice if the conversation you and I are having right now, the two of you can start to have as we move forward, it'd be really beneficial. Yeah. And, and Bethany, I'm just curious like.
Julie: What is, how, how is this hitting your heart?
Bethany: Um, there's a
Bethany: couple things. Um, it softens my heart. It does. I, I think if he would've led with, I didn't get [01:13:00] sympathy for, or I didn't feel like I got sympathy for his traumatic event last year, the attack, instead of saying, I didn't get sympathy for COVID, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation with you right now.
Bethany: Um, so, so I'll say that because I, it's so hard. I know, and I, I've always said he's the strongest person I know and the hardest working person I know, and I don't wanna see him struggle. And I want him to feel comfortable asking me for help, and I wanna be able to give him that help. I think in that time period.
Bethany: I was trying and he was shutting me down, like he said, like there were attempts to help, but I,
Julie: so this is one of those moments, right? I wanna, I wanna go in and I wanna understand you because everything you're saying is important and we need to get to it all, but it's a matter of timing. So this is one of those moments, right, where, you know, he's got the, the giving hat on and I need for you to have the receiving hat on.
Julie: And in order for that to happen, I [01:14:00] need for us to, you kind of put your stuff to the side and we'll go, we'll get back to it and then just kind of tell me like what comes up emotionally. 'cause this is what he is longing for, right? Is he is longing for some help in this place. I wanna do my best to support him no matter what.
Julie: And so this is an opportunity to do that, which is, I get it. I hear you. I hear how hard that period of time was for you. I watched it. I know how hard it was for you.
Julie: And if we just stay in this moment, right, if we just stay in this moment, Bethany: I could see it on your
Bethany: face and I don't, I don't want you to never to not feel supported by me. I wanna be here for you. I wanna give you all of that.
Bethany: I do.
Julie: Okay. So we're, you're going into the future. I wanna stay in the now. Okay.
Julie: What's ha you said that there's a softening [01:15:00] what's happening in your body that's that softening.
Bethany: It's it's empathy.
Julie: Okay,
Julie: so let's just stick there. Empathy. Where is that? Where does that empathy sit in you?
Bethany: In
Bethany: my heart and my soul.
Julie: Does empathy kind of take away some of that tension? That protective tension? Yeah. Okay. It does. And so it, it's an openness, right? You open up and I want you to say that. I want you to say, when I hear you sharing your pain in this way, my body opens up, the tension goes away, and empathy comes in. So he knows that there's success and how he just shared with you [01:16:00] and with me.
Bethany: When you share
Bethany: those things in that way,
Bethany: empathy happens to me and it softens me and it's received better and I can. Understand better where, where you're coming
Bethany: from and where you're sitting.
Julie: Okay. So Julie here, and I just wanna say that what I'm doing here is what I mentioned last week or one of the weeks in the past, which is. Called Coco Co-regulation Coan.
Julie: And so I'm co-regulating Brian by leaning into him and really deeply trying to understand him that he's not just being some sort of selfish narcissist
when he says I'm jealous. And I helped him tap into these deeper places of pain, and this helped him feel held and safe and not judged and seen and comforted.
Julie: That just takes his nervous system right down. And at the same [01:17:00] time, Bethany's body is going right down with him. And so I'm co regulating him. He's co-regulating her. And then when she's able to help him feel seen, she in turn, co-reg regulates him. And so that's the co-regulation part. And then the coan part is when I zoom out and organize them around what just happened.
Julie: So I say, look, this was the negative cycle pattern and here's what the negative cycle was really trying to say, and this is what I did to shift it. And eventually you are going to be doing this on your own. And it's going to be easier to do that because of the safety we're creating in this therapy space.
Julie: This is this meaning part is the cognitive part of the work, helping them see the pattern. And so, you know, this is why I work with couples because you get this momentum going with co-regulation and it's just magical what can happen. And so this is what you can do at home. You can start having these deeper conversations and leaning into each other and getting the momentum going on co-regulation.
Julie: And [01:18:00] it, it's really worth the effort. And I want you to add something to that, which is, and I'm right here with you and I'm right here with you.
Julie: So do you feel a difference there? 'cause we started out with you kind of saying, I don't want that. I was here, I was here, I, I, you know, you kind of go into that. You, you leave your own openness, right? And then we tried it this other way, which was just really staying in this moment and sharing in this moment what's happening for you as he shares.
Julie: And did that feel different for you? Okay. And Brian, did you note, did your body pick up a difference between those two?
Brian: Yeah, I, I think that
Brian: those are the words that I, I needed at the time. You know, that she's gonna stay with me in it and, and join me.
Julie: And what [01:19:00] about right here and now? Did your body pick up a difference between her kind of going into that place where she's telling you, I
don't want you to feel this way, or, I was trying, and then we have the second option, which was she just kind of, and maybe it didn't land so well, we'll work on it, but where she just said, look right here, and now I'm open up to you.
Julie: I can hear you. I can take this in. I'm empathizing. Yeah. What was the difference?
Brian: It feels, uh, I'd say welcoming.
Julie: Did you notice as she was going into I was there, I was seeing it. I was Did you notice a tension coming up in you?
Brian: Yeah. I mean, I, I think her outward emotions were probably what my internal emotions were, you know, at the time. So for [01:20:00] her to meet me in that place and, and somewhat match it, you know, felt
Brian: better.
Julie: Did the word softening and empathy land on you in any positive way? Brian: Yeah, I, I think all of it landed positively.
Julie: So I'm just looking to fine tune everything. Nobody's doing anything wrong. I'm just, you know, trying to pick up these little micro pieces where things can maybe start to go south. But you guys did a great job. And, and Bethany, you know, let me just kind of recap here.
Julie: What happens in this cycle, right, is that this is all very understandable that Brian, this stuff would come up for you when she's going through something very similar and your body starts going, wow, this kind of reminds me of when I was really suffering and I didn't really [01:21:00] feel like I, I felt so alone with it.
Julie: I didn't feel a lot of support. And then it whoosh, it all comes rushing back to you. And so somehow you try to reach for her to get some support around that and around the fact that it's showing up in a moment. And this is the part where you wanna hear, oh my gosh. Okay. Tell me more. Tell me more about that.
Julie: May I understand? It makes sense to me that this would remind you of that, you know, you kind of wanna hear how I kind of dive in and understand
you. That feels very healing. But instead you hear, wait a minute, that's not true. That's not how it went down. That's not, you know, am I right about that part?
Julie: Like, instead you get kind of that like protective place from her, right? Yeah. Okay. And so, but Bethany, on your end, you're not really getting to see his heart in that moment. Somehow what's getting sent to you [01:22:00] is like some kind of protesting or saying, you know, dropping, you dropped me. And kind of however it is, it's not, it's not really landing, right?
Julie: You're not getting his heart, you're getting more blame or whatever.
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah. I mean in, yeah, in that, in that instance, it was. I wouldn't say blame. Um, and, and what he led with it was just like, I didn't, I never thought anybody was stealing my thunder. It was just like, that wasn't apples to apples for me in my head.
Bethany: What the example that he led with, uh, in that moment.
Julie: All right. So I don't quite understand yet, 'cause I haven't talked to you about it. I don't quite understand yet what, how the, the lines got crossed, but somehow the lines get crossed. You're not your, your nervous system, your heart gets closed. Right.
Julie: Some of it is, I think, coming from you and your stuff, and some of it's coming [01:23:00] from his delivery, just like is always the case in these cycles. So your heart closes up and then you go into kind of arguing these details or whatever. Again, I don't know exactly what it is, but, and then when you're, you know, sending that back over, then Brian, now you're going, well, I tried to be vulnerable, now I'm being dropped.
Julie: Which is also what you were experiencing Bethany, and that's the negative cycle. So what I did in here is I shifted us out of a negative cycle into a positive cycle where I really just tried to dive in with you, I just worked with you, Brian today, and tried to understand what, why, how is this coming up?
Julie: What happens that this comes up? What was coming up? How are you reaching and trying to, you know, shift it around in a way that instead of us talking about it in a way that closes each other down, we're now talking about it in a way that opens each other up so we can start to support each other. And it really is all in the way that we're communicating it, how we're giving it, how we're receiving it.[01:24:00]
Julie: So I'm just looking for all the blocks here. And, and one of your blocks, Brian, is I don't quite, I still don't quite understand what that delivery was that caused her heart to close. I trust that. You know, I, we, we've said like, you haven't really had the words to go into that vulnerable place. And usually when we don't have the words for vulnerable, it's gonna come out reactively.
Julie: Right. But e but even just let me validate this, even if you would've delivered it in the most perfect way possible, I think her stuff would've gotten tapped into, and she would've gone into defensiveness anyway, because you guys haven't yet learned how to give and receive vulnerability. Yeah. That, I think that's key.
Julie: So I need you, I need to work on your delivery around this. I need to work on your perception, I mean, your reception, Bethany and I, you know, it's always me working both sides of the equation.
Brian: Yeah. My, my [01:25:00] delivery is probably nine times outta 10. Not the most receptive, but I don't Well, that's why we're here.
Brian: Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't have those words to. You know, kindly deliver it. I don't, I don't feel like it was loud or I was yelling or anything like that. No, no. Uh, I, I just, I think it was misconstrued.
Julie: Well, here's the thing. If you did have those skills, you wouldn't be here. That's why we keep showing up every week.
Julie: And that's again, I mean, that does show both of your resilience that you do this work. It's hard work.
Brian: It's very difficult. Es especially as we go on through these sessions and we keep getting in these negative cycles and you, you just feel like, [01:26:00] you're like, this is the definition of insanity and, and we keep working on these things.
Brian: When we, we actually tried to stop and say, all right, let's use our tools. And it went the other way. It, it becomes very difficult.
Bethany: It's almost
Bethany: like, does it get worse
Bethany: before it gets better?
Brian: Yeah,
Julie: I think it does in the sense that you start being aware of what's actually happening, but yet you still can't get a grip on it.
Julie: And that's really frustrating. It's like one thing to have it happen and not really have a lot of clarity about why, and just make sense of it as, oh, we're incompatible.
Bethany: Right. And I don't think we've had a positive cycle or like Yeah. A good experience and we're probably going on three weeks, you know? I feel like we've been in a constant negative cycle.
Julie: Yeah. We ha we just have to keep doing repetitions. Repetitions of, of the, the positive cycle in here. Know, it's like if I could just follow you around at home and every time it [01:27:00] happens, I dive in and like restructure it that
Brian: Yeah. Like the,
Julie: which is my
Julie: next TV show by the way. That's my dream is to follow a couple around.
Brian: Yeah, you could be like the office linebacker and like blow the whistle, be like all totally mute.
Julie: Totally.
Julie: So anyway, if I could do that, then we'd be moving faster, but, so we have to just come in and do it in here and you know, it's, if I don't work with one of you at a time, I don't have the space and time to really dive into what's going on.
Julie: So next time Bethany, just remind me that you get the mic. Okay. Okay.
Brian: Yeah, if we could just have a plan to expand on this conversation. Yeah, and, and keep going. Um, for me personally, I was thinking of this as, as we were and we had our three day break was. Some of the things that we left off, like I think of like the lying or the, the wedding.[01:28:00]
Brian: Like, I would like to continue building on some of that because I, I felt like I was getting closure or getting some answers as opposed to, Hey, what, what did you, how was your weekend? All right. Another negative cycle. You
know what I mean? Like, we, we're not, we're not progressing. I don't feel like I'm healing from some of these wounds when we just, you know, we have Monday, Wednesday work and then the car, car car wreck.
Brian: Then we go to the car wreck. Like we, we have unfinished business there.
Julie: I agree. There's ones that I have that you guys aren't ready yet to go too deep into the wounds. We gotta stabilize the cycle first. We, we, we can touch it, you know, but, um, what happens is, is we start, we stop having fires to put out every time we come back.
Julie: As you guys get stronger and stronger. So if I, if I start trying to dive into those wounds, um, you know, it's just gonna, well, I won't, I don't know how to explain [01:29:00] it, but it, it, we have to just, it's timing. It's a timing issue. Okay.
Brian: We have to trust the process.
Julie: You have to trust the process. And, you know, really at the end of the day, I'm not working with the events.
Julie: I'm working with the feelings and emotions that were triggered by the events, which is always gonna be the same feelings and emotions that are triggered. So we really are working with the same thing. And as you guys get this, this is a good way to explain it. As you get stronger at staying out of those cycles, one, we're gonna have less fires to put out when we come in.
Julie: And two, um, it will help you get through these healing conversations. Having those skills is what's gonna help us fully get into that and dive deep deeper into that. Okay. So, you know, yeah. Anyway, all right, I will, um, I'll see you guys. Alright, well let's just take a moment with the breakthrough that we just heard.
Julie: So, the turning point [01:30:00] today wasn't about deciding whose trauma was worse. The shift happened when Brian, for the first time, vulnerably shared the deep pain and loneliness that he felt after his attack. He'd never put words to that and Bethany was able to truly hear him. So we witnessed the power of co-regulation in this one power really powerful exchange.
Julie: And when Bethany was able to meet with his pain, with empathy, saying his vulnerability, she said his vulnerability softens me. Brian's response was,
those were the words I needed at the time. Those are the words I needed at the time. So, near the end of today's session, I really tried to hammer the point home that both of them.
Julie: Many of us have not yet learned how to give and receive vulnerably, you know, they haven't learned how to reach for, for each other and receive each other in those tender moments. And again, this is what the process of co regulation really looks like. [01:31:00] Brian also brought up a key frustration for him. So the feeling that these old wounds aren't getting resolved as they deal with new crises and he is right, you know that that is happening.
Julie: The problem is, is that I can't do that. I'm not really gonna dive in fully, fully, fully and keep diving into that as long as we have these new negative cycles popping up because we have to practice doing those, everything that comes up before they're really ready to even more fully dive in. And that's not so black and white.
Julie: You know, sometimes I'll go and touch it and come back, touch it and come back. But again, this work EFT, is really, really. Timing is so, so, so important. You know, when I first started doing this work and I was new and inexperienced with it, um, I, I made the mistake that many therapists do, which is going too fast too soon.
Julie: Now that I am more experienced, um, I probably err on the side of going too slow. Too slow, [01:32:00] if that makes any sense. Um, because what I have found is that if you go too fast too soon, you know, their, their relationship might not be in a place that they can hold that deeper work. Um, and it can backfire on you, or we don't do the s.
Julie: You know, foundational work before that and it just kind of messes things up and you end up having to go back anyway and clean up messes. And that's why really I'm doing this longer format because you can listen to therapy sessions, um, where, you know, they go really deep immediately, they start doing childhood trauma immediately.
Julie: Um, and that can be really cathartic in the moment and that can create some healing. But it isn't the same thing, uh, as a, a lengthy course of therapy that is. A much bigger context. And if you really want the work to be sustainable, um, you really do have to make sure that all of that deeper work is done with the right timing.
Julie: Some of you [01:33:00] have probably noticed that you've gone to therapy or individual or couples and you've had these kind of isolated sessions where you do this amazing work, but it isn't being integrated into the, um, into your life in a way where it's sustainable and really big picture healing, not just sessions here and there that have some healing aspects to them.
Julie: Alright, so for your homework this week, I want you to reflect on an old hurt that just still shows up in your current relationship. What is the feeling that gets triggered? What is the message that you get that triggers that feeling? What
is the unmet attachment need that takes you to that feeling? And what do you wish that your partner could see in that moment?
Julie: You know another one, have you ever felt resentful that your partner didn't show up for you, but then realize that you never actually told them what you needed? So what? What might be keeping you in that [01:34:00] situation from asking for it directly? So we would love to hear what comes up for you. Please send us a voice note or an email support@thesecurerelationship.com.
Julie: Just leave your comment or question on Spotify or please, you know, review on Apple. I really appreciate those Apple reviews and write into us and you might be featured on a future episode. Alright, so thank you for joining me today, everyone. And you know, what you heard again was the hard, beautiful work of choosing to be real over being right, and it's just a reminder that it's never too late to give voice to your pain.
Julie: So thank you to Bethany and Brian. Thank you to you listeners, and until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.

Negative CyclesRepairRegulation

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 10: Does it Get Worse Before It Gets Better?

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Healing Attachment Wounds

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

Session 11: I Just Don't Think She Really Cares About Me

A Year Later with Melissa & Drew (Season 1 Update)