S3 | Session 3: He Probably Wishes He Hadn't Chosen Me
If you listened to our previous episode, you know Rachel and Mike ended their first session with a beautiful breakthrough. But in the real world of relationships, progress is rarely linear. In this episode, we drop into the next session to find Rachel fighting a powerful urge to detach. Exhausted from years of feeling emotionally dropped despite providing him with a "roadmap" to her heart, her nervous system is sending her a painful, familiar message: she is fundamentally flawed, and her emotional needs are just "too much" for him.
On the other side of the couch, Mike is equally exhausted. He desperately wants to comfort Rachel but hits an absolute wall when faced with her deep sadness. To understand why, we trace Mike's emotional avoidance all the way back to its roots—uncovering a painful history of childhood bullying and a family culture where heavy emotions were minimized with baked goods and phrases like "don't sweat the small stuff." Together, we discover that Mike isn't being intentionally dismissive of his wife's pain; he is simply using the only emotional survival strategy he was ever taught.
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S3 | Session 3: He Probably Wishes He Hadn't Chosen Me
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed couples therapist and author of the book, secure Love Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime, which is now out on paperback. So if you listen to our previous episodes, you know that Rachel and Mike ended their first session with a beautiful connecting breakthrough, but in the real world of relationships, progress is rarely linear.
So as we drop into our next session with them today, you're going to hear the reality of what happens when a longstanding negative cycle tries to pull a couple back in. So one good moment doesn't erase years of pain. Today we're going to find Rachel fighting a powerful urge to detach. Her nervous system is just exhausted from years of feeling emotionally dropped, and it's sending her a very painful, very familiar message, which is, I'm [00:01:00] just too much for him.
This can't work. And then on the other side of the couch, we have Mike, who's also exhausted. So he desperately wants to comfort her, but he hits an absolute wall when faced with her deep sadness. And in this episode, we're going to explore exactly why that happens. We're going to trace Mike's emotional avoidance all the way back to its roots.
Uncovering a painful history of childhood bullying and a family culture where heavy emotions were just met with baked goods and phrases like, well, don't sweat the small stuff. You know, is there anything wrong with cookies and life advice? Not at all. As long as those things are happening alongside emotional support, not as a substitute for it.
So in this episode, we're gonna take a look at how the ways we were comforted or not comforted in our youth will directly dictate how we show up for ourselves and our partners as adults. Alright, so before we [00:02:00] dive into today's episode, we have a voice note here from Michael.
Michael / Listener Segment: Hi, my name is Michael. I, um, wanna thank you for your podcast.
It's been such a breath of fresh air in terms of showing how couples can co regulate each other and how. Beneficial E ft is, um, I'm a mental health professional and I'm actually looking to specialize in, in sex therapy and, um,
sexual support. And so I was curious on some of your thoughts around the role of sex and the anxious and avoidance attachment dynamic.
I, we haven't been able to hear a little bit of it beyond, uh, just a quick mention of it in the last season, but I know some of your Instagram posts have touched on it. Um, it's such a huge part of romantic and emotional communication and
yet it's not very, it's rarely talked about. Um, so I'm just curious if you could maybe touch on it, see, you know, what your, some of.
Experiences have been and, and maybe if this couple will be able to [00:03:00] share some of their own experiences as well, because I think that'll be helpful for myself and for other listeners as well. So thank you so much for what you do.
Julie: Okay, Michael, well that's a great, great thoughts and questions. I really appreciate you bringing it up.
You know, I have a few things to say about sex and this work. Um, so the first thing is that couples will have a sex cycle that is very similar to their emotional cycle and the way that it plays out in the pattern. But a lot of the time it's, it's the opposite. The with emotionally withdrawing partner will be the sexual pursuing partner and the emotional pursuing partner will be the sexual.
Not always the case, but that's very common. Um, one of the reasons for that is those with avoidant attachment tend to get a lot of their emotional needs met through sex. That's where they feel valued, that's where they feel wanted, uh, feel. Feel cared [00:04:00] for, feel like they have access to connection. And so it can be very traumatizing and traumatic for them to not feel that they have access to that.
And then of course, you know, when they get into emotional cycles and the anxious, a partner feels emotionally abandoned, that of course makes them want to shut down to sex. So now we, we can have a lot of complications around that and. My work is always about balance. So I need for someone who, you know, if they're, if they're leaning too heavily into the only emotional connection they, they can experience is physically, I need to move them toward, we gotta get you doing emotional connection verbally.
Also, when I work with a couple, you know, I'm always going to be curious about that sex cycle, uh, with the couples that we have had up to this point. That hasn't been the big predominant issue, but it would've been something that we
would eventually had to address, had the therapy, you know, gone on long enough.
And here's why, because what I have found over and over [00:05:00] again is that the first, the, the starting point is almost always going to be the emotional relationship. We really need to get that stabilized because if we don't, they're gonna have a hard time even talking about sex outside of a negative cycle.
So it's not really going to get anywhere. Um. But with that, with that said, there are some couples that sex is the biggest issue on the table. And until we get some help around that, they're not going to be able to get anywhere emotionally. And in that case, yes, we do have to place more of a focus on that.
Um, and you know, traditionally in EFT, the type of work, this is the, the focus has been heav more heavy on the emotional side with the idea being we get that stabilized and the sexual part will start to improve on its own. And a lot of times that does, but it doesn't always. And so there are a lot of, um, people in the EFT community now that are really starting to put more of a [00:06:00] focus on, we need to start talking about that sex cycle right away.
So anyway, it's not something that can ever be ignored. Thank you for the comment and good luck on your journey as a therapist. And for now, let's go ahead and dive into today. We ended on a, a good note. You know, we had kind of a bonding experience. We talked about the negative cycle, and then something really important came up, which is exactly what I would expect why we're here, which is, Rachel, you said this is good, my nervous system is able to take it in, but there is still some block there because I don't completely trust it.
And when I hear someone say that, where I go is that most likely, uh, it feels good, but I don't trust I'm gonna get more of it. Or I don't know that this is gonna be consistent. So can we just kind of start there and dive into that?
Rachel: Sure.
Julie: All right. Well, I'll, I'll let you start talking
unless you [00:07:00] want me to ask you questions, which I can do.
Rachel: Um, I mean, I think it's just based on our, you know, past history of negative cycles and having, at the time what I thought were good talks and momentum towards change.
And it would be that feel good in the moment and then days would pass and there wouldn't be a change. And so that's what I and my nervous system are used to right now.
And there hasn't been, you know, enough consistent new behavior for me to feel fully safe in it yet.
Julie: And when you say behavior, help me understand what you mean.
Rachel: Uh, because we would talk about, you know, in these talks when we were trying to come out. Me being the anxious, I would share all my feelings and how that made me feel and what I was looking for and what would [00:08:00] be helpful to have from Mike in those instances to, you know, bring what I thought would bring me closer to him or us closer together.
And so by me clearly stating those things and him acknowledging it in those discussions, logically I thought that behavior would change or the effort would be different or something. And it, and I could never make sense of why, why it wasn't happening after we would have those discussions. And so,
It, and I think that's also why we talked a little bit yesterday about how my behavior has changed in that I've become less reactive, which is good.
But throughout the past several months, I've also become more easily detached. And so. It's kind of a dangerous place and then a really uncomfortable spot for me to be in that feeling because I want to be able to trust the new [00:09:00] behavior and I don't want to so easily slide into disconnection. And that's what I noticed after this last negative cycle is how quickly I am easily disconnected and detached now.
Julie: Okay. So what, what you're saying is I'm still not getting emotional safety and connection. I have an idea about what that looks like and what I'm needing in these interactions. Um, but, and we talk about it and for you it seems really clear.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And what are those things that are so clear, like,
Rachel: um. I mean, I had gone through an exercise at the beginning of this year where I was just trying to get clear about what I needed and wanted for myself, and had made this list of what I need to feel loved.
And that was just me kind of getting my thoughts on paper. And then I shared it [00:10:00] with Mike, and obviously I was thinking like, this is a roadmap to my heart. Right? Um, and he even asked for a copy of it. And so again, I'm thinking like, here he has the roadmap. Here's an like an easy itemization of things that would make me feel loved and things that would make me feel connected to him.
And then there were some things on there that he, um, put effort into for sure. But it was almost like, it was like the low hanging fruit, the real easy ones. And that's where I noticed like, yes, I am looking for these things, but what's really missing for me is the deep connection beyond surface level discussions.
But that was also at a time where I didn't, you know, fully understand the avoidant tendencies and, and his behaviors and stuff. So I'm sure like, yes, it's a roadmap, but at the same time it was probably really overwhelming for him to get. [00:11:00]
Julie: So the words were there and the effort was there, and his heart was there, but that connection wasn't there that you were looking for.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Okay. And then, so the way that you make sense of the disconnection is what,
Rachel: I mean the, probably the subconscious script in my mind is, I'm not worth it. Like he's, he's truly not happy in this relationship. So he's not willing to or want to. Put in the effort.
Julie: Okay. And what comes up as you just put words to that, that there's this part of you that questions, you know, whether or not you're worth it.
Rachel: It's hard to say it out loud, but I also know that's been my mo my whole life is what I've always questioned.
Julie: Yeah.
And so what's coming up right now as you, [00:12:00] is it, do I see tears? Is this sadness?
Rachel: Oh yeah.
Julie: Yeah.
It is really sad to have a part that really does question. Am I even worth loving? Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And I appreciate you, um, being here in this space with that and letting me see this pain.
So how, how do you, how do you deal with this pain? How do you manage this? Because every time, you know, you get triggered, it goes here, right?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: I mean, we can all make sense of our relationship problems as what they're not doing, but then this other part comes in so fast that says, well, maybe they're not doing it because I'm not [00:13:00] really worth it.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: And then what do you, what do you do when all this gets touched, Rachel: catastrophize, and look for my own way out.
Julie: Okay. So you go into your head and you start kind of mulling over the fears and, and the escape roots. Okay.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And then what do you, what do you say. To him when you're in that place? Or what does he see?
Um, kind of in the cycle, you know, or here,
Rachel: I think now that's probably where I'm at the point of disconnection. That's what I'm dealing with in the disconnected state.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: Not leaning in.
Julie: Mm-hmm. So he sees on the outside, he just sees disconnection. Rachel: I assume so,
Julie: but underneath that, what he's seeing is all this [00:14:00] pain. Rachel: I don't know that he sees,
Julie: oh, I'm sorry. Did I say he sees it? Yeah, yeah. No, underneath it, what he doesn't see is he doesn't see the pain. So just so I can, I'm just kind of organizing this cycle here, is you get a message that you're not being supported. Right. Whatever it is you're talking about. And then.
You know, that goes to, to some fear. And the fear underneath. The fear is this part of you that makes sense of this as I must not be worth it. That's why I'm not getting these needs met here. If he could do it, he would.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: And then there's so much pain there. Your body doesn't wanna go to that pain, so your body just goes into that kind of spinning place, how do I get out of this?
But in [00:15:00] that you pull away from him because you've stopped expecting that he can help you there.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Yeah. You used to fight to be helped there.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And so, um, how, how do you help yourself like. I mean, do you, I guess I, I've already asked that. So a better question would be do you ever sit with the, the sadness here and, and sit with, make some space for the pain around wherever you picked up these ideas that you're not really worth it?
Rachel: Usually skip the sadness and it's more probably a feeling of shame for even feeling that way about myself to begin with. Like, why, why can't I just believe that I'm worth it?
Julie: Okay. So then shame comes up, um, in, on top of shame? Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. I don't know that, [00:16:00] um, I don't know that any of this is, is new to Mike.
H how often do you share this with him? Just this deeper part. How often does he get to see that?
Rachel: Um, I think I may have mentioned yesterday in that in the beginning I was, I was sharing, I was telling him like, I have, I have this struggle. I know it comes from, you know, childhood and this and that. And, and again, thinking that by me explaining all that it would help him understand me.
Uh, but I've also come to know that he prefers the optimistic view of life. And so my realistic view of seeing all the, the hurt, the challenges, the struggles, um, it left me feeling [00:17:00] unsupported. And so I just haven't shared like I used to.
Julie: Okay. And. That makes sense to me. You know, you did share the pain, like you said, you know, your last relationship, you weren't, you definitely weren't able to do that.
And the relationship wasn't safe. You didn't know how. And so you learned how to do that and came into this relationship thinking things are going to be different and it wasn't. And so, you know, there's this part of you that explains your pain and your dis and the disconnection in the relationship is, well maybe I'm not worth it.
Tell me about the part that explains it as him, what is it about him that's not getting it right, is it, why is he in your mind, why is he not getting it right?
Rachel: Um, I think I've a [00:18:00] little bit of a challenge because, and I think I may have mentioned this in our one-on-one, early on in our relationship. He was, it seemed like he was very in tune to my struggles.
And we would have long talks about it and he would offer and say, you know, in text messages or our phone calls, like any, any reassurance you need, just let me know. Like, I'm here for you. I understand that this is part of your past, it's a struggle for you, and I'm here to support you through that. And so I had all that, what I thought was the support on the front end so that when we came together
in marriage, um, that it was going to continue inwards and in person, you know, and so it, it, it took me a long time just to [00:19:00] realize, like, why, why is it different?
Why does it feel different? Than early on in the relationship. He offered up, you know, the words. But I think maybe that was us coming together and living together physically was different.
Julie: Yeah.
Rachel: For him.
Julie: okay. So, okay. That, that's, that makes sense to me. Um, again, you know, you felt like you were getting some of those needs met and something happens when we come together physically.
Uh, I don't quite understand that. I do wanna understand that, but I wanna book that book, bookmark that for a bit, and, and just explore more about how you make sense of his. What is it about him that is causing him in your mind to not be able to show up in the way you like? Is he not trying hard enough?
Is [00:20:00] he, uh. You know, not really in love with you. Like what do you say to yourself?
Rachel: I mean, I think probably both of those things, because I, I don't, you know, up until I started learning more about just avoidant behaviors and the challenges and struggles and being emotionally closed off, I, I couldn't make sense of it.
So it was easy to tell myself those things that, you know, maybe, maybe this is way more than he bargained for. And he is regretting the decision. He doesn't really want this, he is trying at a basic level, but I couldn't understand why he couldn't go deeper. And now how do you understand that? I mean, finding out that he's detached and numb explains a lot.
[00:21:00] I mean, and like you said, if he, if he can't do it for himself, he, he's not gonna be able to do it for me.
Julie: Okay. So there is, there is a part of you that says, well, he can't do this. Right. But I wanna know more about the part that says he can't do this because do, because he is not trying hard enough to learn.
Um, you know, you, you've done the work, right?
So how do you make sense of the fact that he hasn't, or, or isn't there yet? And I know, Mike, this is not so straightforward for you. I'm gonna, and I'm, I'm trying to understand in the cycle. What happens when he gets messages that maybe he's just not trying hard enough, or if that's coming from you, and I'm trying to find the part of you that, that might be sending those messages.
If I wanna know if there's a part of you that believes that, that believes, that believes that this is him, [00:22:00] you know, just not giving it enough effort or is, I don't know, just broken or doesn't really want to change, would rather just, you know, be with someone who is less needy or something along those lines.
Rachel: Yes, I've said that.
Julie: Okay.
So, so there is a part of you that thinks that maybe he just sees you as too much. Rachel: Yes.
Julie: And I know there's a part of you that believes that too, but there's also a part of you that doesn't believe that, and that's the part that says, well, he just sees me as too much.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: what do you do with that?
Because that's a, that's a hard place to be. Right?
What do you say to him? What do you, how does, how does he might maybe get that message?
Rachel: I mean, I've straight told him, he probably wishes that he wouldn't have chosen me because I'm a [00:23:00] lot.
Julie: So you say that
Rachel: mm-hmm.
Julie: Sometimes.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Okay.
Rachel: Yeah, I've given him an off-ramp multiple times.
Julie: So, and there is a part of you that does, does believe that? Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. What does it feel like to just say, there is a part of me that believes that maybe I am too much for him?
Rachel: Embarrassed.
Julie: Okay. Why? What's embarrassing?
Rachel: I don't want to be too much. I don't wanna have all this baggage and stuff that I carry around that makes me too much for someone.
Julie: Yeah.
What are the tears saying right now?
Rachel: It's just a lot of years of feeling that way about myself.[00:24:00] and not the message that it's different.
Julie: So part of what makes it so easy to go there is that there's a part of you that believes that you're too much, so it becomes really easy for you to believe that he must see you as too much, too.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: And then when he's not able to show up and in these ways that are what you're needing to feel connected, then it just reinforces that narrative.
Yeah. Is this something that you talk about to him ever?
Rachel: Not anymore.
Julie: Okay. I'm just trying to figure out where we are. So you're saying Yeah, there were, there were times in the past when I would share that. Yeah.
Rachel: I, and I think, I mean, I'll a lot of times early on not recognizing anything that, you know, that we didn't understand it was a negative cycle at the time, but it was like a [00:25:00] lot of times I would say stuff and spitball things to try and get a response or a reaction or like, what is his truth?
And that's, he alluded to that yesterday when I said like, I, I feel like there's more, and I, I just felt like, you know, after a few years of negative cycles and I still asked you like, what can I do better? Or, you know. How can I make things better? And it's the, oh no, everything's fine. Everything's fine.
You're perfect. And it's like, that is not true in any relationship. And so then that made it hard to trust when he did tell me, no, you're not too much. No, this is, you know? Mm-hmm. This is relationship I wanna be in. It's like, I, I just couldn't trust it.
Julie: All right. So he is over there saying the words, you're not too much, you're not too much, but you're still feeling disconnected and alone.
And alone. And not always safe to bring things up, [00:26:00] um, without ending up feeling more alone and unsafe and, um, disconnected. And so then that narrative or his, the disconnection ties into. Your own narrative that you has been with you for a while that says, well, maybe I'm just not worth it. Maybe I am actually too much.
Okay. Julie, jumping in here. So I wanna highlight what Rachel is doing right now because this is so common for the anxiously attached partner. When an anxious partner experiences distance or a lack of emotional response from their partner, their brain doesn't just say, oh, my partner is distracted. It goes straight to this core wound.
I am defective. I am too much. I'm not worth the effort, and the shame is one of the engines of the negative cycle. So if we don't heal this underlying belief that she's too much, she'll never be able to fully advocate [00:27:00] for her needs or fully trust the new healthy behaviors that Mike is trying to build, and we're not gonna try to heal that.
Now. We're too early in the work, but it's really important that this self-work does happen. And those of you with anxious attachment, I can't stress how important doing the self-work is in order to be confident on a nervous system level, not just in your head that your needs really do matter. Then for a while, and I know I'm being repetitive here, but I'm really just trying to map this out, then for a while you would reach and reach and it didn't work, and so now you just pull away.
Rachel: Right,
Julie: so I just kind of wanna see what would happen if, um, you shared some of this with him right now. I just wanna see, you know, how this might play out in front of me. So maybe just tell him there is, you know, this part of me that makes sense of this problem that we're in [00:28:00] as I'm just not enough for you.
Rachel: Yeah. Often when we're in the cycles, I feel like I'm too much for you and that you'd rather be somewhere else.
Julie: So how, how is it to, to put some words there,
Rachel: painful.
Julie: Are you, are you worried right now that maybe he won't be able to hold that?
Rachel: I know that he wants to.
Julie: All right. Well, let me, let me go over there.
Um. And kind of check it out with him and see if I can help him show up maybe in a new way right now.
So, Mike, what is coming up for you right now?
Mike: I think it's a lot of, [00:29:00] just a lot of sadness, I guess, is the best way of putting it. Just for, it's, it's hard to see and hard to hear in a sense. Um, just, just knowing that, you know, Rachel believes that she's, she is too much or she is not enough or, you know, all those things that are, you know, it's, um. I think it's, yeah, it's, it's, I kind of, it's like easy labels to slap on somebody.
Right. And I think there's, you know, there, it, it's,
you know, I, I, and I think it's, you know, I, I guess in where, where I kind in, me [00:30:00] being me, like, I, I go in my head, right? Like, I, I wanna try and fix it. I'm like, well, what, you know, just kind of, you know what I've, what I've, what I try and do is understand, you know, where, where she's coming from. Why, why do you have these feelings?
But then it's the, it's the same exact stuff we talk about. Like, I, I straight drop dropper. Like, I, I'm like, ugh. Okay, you, you like I don't, I I'm at a loss of, of what to say in these exact, you know,
Julie: Okay. So lemme
Mike: yeah,
Julie: lemme jump in here and, and give you guys some help because you need, you need some help right now from me.
So let, let me pause you for just a sec, Mike, you're doing a great job. I just wanna go back over here and check in and kind of organize what I just did so I could see some of the problem coming to life, right? So. You know, Rachel, you're in a really vulnerable spot right now. You put some really deep stuff out there, you went right down into your [00:31:00] feelings, which is exactly what I would need you to do in here.
I'm having a hard time finding really any, um, blocks for you other than this shame that you're carrying around. Maybe I'm not enough, maybe this is me, but I'm not really seeing right now that you're necessarily bringing that into cycles in a reactive way. Um, what I see is that you are doing something that anyone would do, which is you, you were trying to be vulnerable that wasn't working, and so now you've kind of started this process of detachment.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Again, I, I know I'm being repetitive, but I'm just trying to get a good grip on it. We're, we're new to this, but, so, um, for lack of more eloquent way to say this, [00:32:00] um, I think that you're in a really good spot, Rachel, other than we need to get into that shame at some point, but we don't wanna go there when he's not ready to hold you there.
Right. So. I need to go work with him on getting more engaged, emotionally engaged here. Um, because obviously that is not something that he learned to do. Mike, I hope I'm not pathologizing you or blaming you as the problem,
because that's not the case at all. Um, you know, it is, it can be a lot harder for someone with an avoidant attachment to get to this stuff because your survival strategy has been to put it away.
Right. So, if you don't mind, Rachel, um, I'm gonna go over here and just kind of do some work with him and try to get him, um, more emotionally engaged with himself so that he can show up for you better. And then Mike, you get to feel better too, right?
Mike: Great. Great. Yeah.
Julie: Does that, does that [00:33:00] sound awful? Am I missing anything? Or like, Rachel, what are your thoughts on that?
Rachel: No,
I mean, I think. What he talked about is how, when he would go into his head, when I would share something vulnerable like that, and he would come back with, well, why do you feel that way? And it just made me feel worse because it's like, I don't exactly know why I feel that way, but I, you know, I, I can't give you a good reason for it.
I'm just telling you that's how I feel. And so then I felt defeated in that vulnerability.
Julie: Right? And so what you're saying is, is that, you know, I didn't feel co co I was in an emotionally painful space. I didn't feel co-regulate. I, I know that there is some, um, you know, there's value to someone wanting to show up for you, and that's what's really kind of working here, right?
Is that he really does want to show up for you and he's here to show up for you. And I need to help him understand that [00:34:00] he's also, you know, there's value in showing up for himself, but. I know it, it's tricky because this, you know, you're able to see, wow, he's here, he's investing, but at the same time, I'm still not feeling the connection that I'm needing and I'm not feeling the co regulation that I'm needing in those moments.
And neither is he. And you're asking and not getting, and he's not asking and not getting, and both of you end up in those moments feeling really bad and unsafe. And so I just don't want, I don't feel at this moment, I have really anywhere to
go with you. Um, and if I do see that, I'll definitely scoot over there and go with you.
But I don't wanna leave you hanging in this raw place. So how can, do you feel a little, um, better right now? Maybe a little more grounded. I don't wanna just like, leave you hanging and then go over and work with him and ignore.
Rachel: No, you're fine. You're fine. I appreciate that. I'm, I'm [00:35:00] feeling okay.
Julie: Okay. Do you, I just, 'cause I, I wanna make sure that you feel understood and validated and supported in this place right now by me, is what I'm saying.
Rachel: I do,
yeah.
Julie: Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm gonna put you on pause. Go ahead. I know. We'll figure out how to work with my stuff at the right time, so. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for that understanding. Okay, so, um, so let's go back over here, Mike, I just, I, I first just wanna check out how's this landing on you to kind of hear me say, uh oh Mike, you're the problem.
I mean, it's horrible, but, uh, it's really not where my heart is. My heart isn't helping you guys. So how does that land for you?
Mike: Yeah, it's, uh, nothing I didn't know, let's put it that way. Um, and I think that's kind of what I, you know, kind of said, you know, we're. We're in this kind of emotional based therapy, and when you don't have emotions, it's a little, it's [00:36:00] a little, it's a little uncomfortable and just tough to, to figure out.
I mean, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a missing. As we've done this work thus far, it's very clear that it's, it's a missing piece. Um, you know, a pretty big one. So, yeah, I think there's, there's definitely, I, I understand that I absolutely play, play the, you know, my part and I, and I do want to figure out how to, how to, how to do this, how to support Rachel and just, you know, be a, be coregulated.
I mean, that's, that's definitely because it, yeah, it's, it's, and I think, you know, being, being an avoidant like you, it's, it's obvious, right? You, you do what you can to avoid these, these conversations. And when I get the sense, Rachel is. Um, being vulnerable. It's like y [00:37:00] yeah. It's like, well, I, I don't know what to do with it.
Oftentimes to make her, you know, you know, feel supported or feel heard and give her the, you know, the reassurance and just everything that she's looking for in a partner, because it's, you know, I'm kind of, you know, stumble and fumble around. It's, is, is, uh, yeah. Kind of the, the mo so,
Julie: okay. So you, you guys have done enough work to kind of recognize here that, you know, this is a cycle.
We're not, we're not enemies of each other. Um, we, we just came together and we had these emotional blocks. Somehow, Rachel, you, you know, with a combination of self-help and therapy and some things that you mentioned, you have been able to get emotionally engaged and, but Mike, you're just, you, you haven't quite gotten there, but you recognize this is, uh, [00:38:00] um, where you want to go, right?
And so let's, again, let's just dive into that. Um, I'm kind of babbling right now and I'll tell you why, because I'm still trying to figure out, like you guys are coming to me at, at, at, at like a more advanced state than I'm used to seeing with couples. So I'm trying to, I'm a in a little bit unfamiliar territory, so I'm just gonna do what I do right now.
So, Mike, why don't you tell me what is happening in your nervous system? As you talk to me or as I'm taking her into this really painful place, I just wanna know, you know, I'm going to have to assume that there is some alarm bells going off in your body when this starts to, when we start down to go down this road.
Mike: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think just, just talking about it, it's kind of, you know, kind of the, the, just the [00:39:00] vulnerableness and the, the, the rawness is, you know, it's, um, it's an uncomfortable spot because I always feel like and want to say the right thing, and that's kind of my, you know, where I stumble, fumble, just flail around, you know, and, and wanting to, and wanting to get it right and wanting to show up for her, you know?
And. It's been kind of eyeopening too. It's like, well, I've been entirely off base. You know, I, I, I felt like I was, you know, trying to, to show up. But I think, you know, that, that's ultimately what I feel is like, I, you know, I, I always, you know, I obviously love Rachel, so it's like I want to show up for her, but it's, and, and say, and do the right things.
But when you can't do that, or if I, if [00:40:00] if I leave her dropped, it's kind of, it's, um, it's a defeating feeling for me. Right. So it's like sometimes that's
where it's like I, I start to, to pull away, shy away. I don't know what you wanna say. Um, in a sense because Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I guess, yeah, I dunno, it's um.
Julie: No, it, it's making sense to me. So as she's talking, I'm taking her to this vulnerable place. You know, this dance, you know, you've done it at home and it doesn't really end up going well. You know, she's upset, she's sad, she's in her pain. Your heart wants to help her, but you don't know how. No, no matter what you say, it, it's not enough to bring that connection in.
So, you know, here and now that you know, here, here we go down this road, and I just really wanna know if you can tell me anything about what's going on in your body as she's talking. Do you [00:41:00] feel that, you know, we talked yesterday about the tension coming up. Do you, do you feel some of that?
Mike: Not, yeah. Not really.
Any tension? No. It's
Julie: okay. You don't, okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: No. Does your heart start beating faster or
Mike: no? No.
Julie: Okay. I noticed that you're kind of holding your neck a bit. Mike: Yeah, I
Julie: Maybe there's some, yeah,
Mike: it's, it's, yeah, I mean, I think it's, if anything, it's probably more of a nervousness. Um,
Julie: okay. All right. Let's just hold there. Okay. So I just want you, and you might not be able to gimme an answer. That's okay.
That's what we're here for, but I want you to just close your eyes and see if you can find anywhere in your body that, that nervous might be sitting. Usually, you
know, nervous would like, another question is, how do you know the [00:42:00] nervousness? Is there, where is it sitting?
Mike: I don't know how to say it besides just like, feeling on, on alert. Julie: On alert. Okay.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're, you're not at ease with what's, what's, you know, um. Yeah. If that makes sense. You kind of just, he heightened, I dunno what you wanna say it, but you're not Yeah. You're not just, um,
Julie: it's like not a calm, relaxed place.
Mike: Yes. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I just want to hold there because this is part of emotional engagement, is getting in touch with what's going on in your body when you're not emotionally safe, because this is not emotional safety. Right. Feeling nervous and it, it feels bad if it's unsafe [00:43:00] because it doesn't feel good.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And how often do you just linger here and just allow this to be
Mike: Not very often. I'll usually try and do, do something too. And Rachel will probably tell you like if I know, you know, she's. You know, kind of feeling down or whatever. I'll, I'll usually, you know, sometimes I'll try and do something goofy or I'll just do, be playful or just kinda, it's, it's all that, everything besides going into the emotions and it's kind of, yeah, that's, that is the common.
Julie: So if you, um, if you didn't get goofy or playful, what might you be feeling? What might you have to sit with?
Mike: I think just, yeah, just the, the uncomfortableness and kind of sense of heaviness, sadness.
Julie: What you're telling me is, yeah, underneath that nervousness is some [00:44:00] heaviness and sadness and it, it doesn't feel good.
You don't wanna go there. So what you do is you try to get some, you know, do you do, do you do some different things? A few different things. One of them is, you might start. You know, going into problem solving, one of them is you might get goofy and playful and kind of try to, is that your way of kind of trying to turn down the heat?
Mike: Yeah, I, I do it with our son a lot. Um, I think it's, it's always, it's super effective with him and it's just, it's kind of who, you know, I am at heart. I'm a, you know, kind of a big playful kid, you know, when it's, it's fun. I mean, it, it's, yeah, if there's a, if there's a way to make a serious situation lighthearted, that's what I'll do.
Um, you know, it's just the, yeah, kind of how I've, how I've protected myself over the years. It's one of the things I've done.
Julie: So tell me what the strength is in that. Why, why that [00:45:00] is, is actually a strength of yours. I mean, I understand we need to bring some balance here and maybe do some new things in the relationship when it needs new, different things, but help me.
Understand how this works for you.
Mike: I think it's a, it's a way to bring myself kind of instant calmness, um, by doing that. It's definitely like a self-regulation thing. Like if I can get, if I know somebody sad and I can get like a laugh or a smile out them, like I, I, it's, it's like, okay, that's, that gives me instant comfort and gratification.
Okay. We, we've, we've fixed the situation. You know, it's kind of going back to that place. Um, and I think that's where, that's how I've, I guess, in a sense have found, you know, those, you know, kind of characteristics, whatever you wanna call 'em is being successful is you, you is seeing, quickly seeing the situation
deescalate.
And I'm, [00:46:00] I'm not saying it's always been like that for, you know, Rachel and I, because you know, sometimes if we're down that's not gonna work. But, you know, and I also know where that line is. Like I'm not gonna be a kind of a, a goofball and, and knowing that, you know, she should, but
Julie: I bet there, I bet there are times when that goofy place does really help the two of you.
Rachel: Yes.
Mike: Yeah,
Rachel: that's true.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And I'm sure it really, really helps in parenting to be able to have a lot of different ways to diffuse a situation. ,
Mike: Yeah. That, that's, yeah, definitely
Rachel: you much more fun than I am.
Julie: So I noticed that when we talk about this part of you, you know, your whole face just lights up, both of your faces just light up.
So this is a, a place of joy for the two of you. And I really like seeing that.
Mike: That. And that's, I mean, that's, like I said, I think, you know, yesterday is, is joyfulness and happiness is like, it's [00:47:00] always where I'm wanting, especially around the family, you know, being at home just wanting to be comfortable. I know if, you know, if the vibe is happy and joyful, it just, it brings me instant calmness.
It's like, I don't, I don't have somebody that's on tilt or what's, you know, I just, that's how I know the world's. Okay,
Julie: sure.
Yeah, that's where you, that's where you thrive is, is joy and success and the joy and or that's where you find success. And when you find success, you find calm.
Mike: Yeah. I think, and then, you know, in the situations, you know, like where that doesn't work. And, and I will say, you know, a lot of the times when. I know Rachel's on tilt or struggling or whatever the case is. I unfortunately recognize I
do pull [00:48:00] away. It's, it's like, um, I know exactly, you know, why it is besides just not knowing how to not, not knowing what to do, how to, how to fix it.
I mean,
Julie: that's what, it's a, it's a different, it's a different way to be successful and you just, you just haven't found that way yet. Right,
Mike: right, right, right.
Julie: I think Joy doesn't, bringing joy into this pain when we need to do pain doesn't really, you know, doesn't quite get there. And so what I'm hearing is that, that's one of your strategies and then fix it as another strategy that does work exceptionally well in lots of different contexts.
But what's it like to hear me say you haven't yet found a way to be successful in a different way? When we're doing pain, we're, we're doing the kind of pain that can't be, you know, joy. Joy isn't gonna be enough, and problem solving isn't gonna be enough. [00:49:00]
Mike: Yeah. I think that's, that's definitely the area I struggle is that that whole kind of, just,
Julie: so, so you said, um, I, when I'm in success, when my body's in success, I am, that's where I'm the calmest.
Right? So I'm going to assume that fail that, that place, like we talked yesterday, that place of failure is when you start to get activated. That's when the alert comes up. That's when the unease comes up. When you start to either be in failure or think failure's coming your way.
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah,
Julie: let's just kind of hold there and I, I just wanna see what, what comes up emotionally. Remember we're doing emotional work. What comes up emotionally as we put some words there? I don't think it's new information, [00:50:00]
but is there anything new right now happening? Just talking to me about it. Do you feel a little more at ease?
Mike: I think from the sense of just trying to understand and, and feel, it's like, it's almost like, in a sense it's like trying to feel all the emotions around what may seem like small topics that I would otherwise quickly just brush past.
Julie: I wanna bookmark that because I do wanna go back to that. But what I wanna check for right now is what I'm doing with you is really trying to be supportive and trying to better understand you. Um, I'm trying to kind of help you see, you know, that these coping strategies that you have to deal with your pain when she's needing for you to be there and [00:51:00] you don't know how have strengths in lots of different parts of life.
Um, they're not just failures, they're just, you know, strategies that work in some context and don't work in others. Um, I'm trying to help you feel trying kind of, uh, accepted for these parts of you and is your body taking that in as safety is what I'm looking for And, and please be honest with me. Okay.
Mike: Yeah, I think, I think that's. Yeah, I, I think I definitely recognize that it's safety because that's, that's all I've ever known, right? It's, it's how I've functioned, you know, by using those strategies and just, you know, it, it, it has worked for me, you know, obviously there's other, you know, um,
Julie: so I wanna know then what it is about what I am giving you right now, and what I'm saying is helping [00:52:00] you feel calm, and I think I know what it is.
I think I'm not phrasing this in a way that's leaving you feeling unsuccessful, like an object failure. I'm highlighting your strengths. Is that helping you?
Mike: Yeah, I think I, I, I think it does, but the other piece of me also knows that. There's, there's work to be done, right? Like those strategies only go so far.
Um, and that's, that's exactly why It's like, I, it's like, it's like the teacher telling you, you got, you got 80% right. But I'm like, wait, there's still 20%.
Julie: Okay, so, well, there's two ways to do it. I could be sitting here saying, you know, you're getting it all wrong. You should never try to move someone away from their emotions with being silly.
That's dismissive. Or, you know, I could be kind of presenting this in a shaming way, which would just be wholly unsuccessful. That would [00:53:00] just probably make you feel really bad. Right? But because I'm kind of phrasing it and, and it's authentic, I really do believe these things. Um, by the way, I'm not
just telling you that, um, you're saying, look, most of my nervous system is kind of able to relax there, even though there is this part of me that says, well, I've still got growth to do, but I just wanna kind of point out that.
What I'm helping you with right now, that your body is able to take it in. That's one of the ways that you try to help Rachel, right? Which is highlight her successes, pump her up, build her up. Is that something that you
Mike: Yeah, yeah, I probably quite a bit. Yeah.
Julie: And it makes sense to me because that's what helps you feel good.
Mike: Yeah. Rachel has, yeah, Rachel has told me that numerous times and in the various ways that I drop her and it's, she had an interesting way of putting it, but basically it's like [00:54:00] I show up for her in the ways I want her to show up for me
Julie: Exactly.
Mike: All the time. And it's like, I know like if somebody does this for me, I'm gonna feel great.
So if I do that for that person, they're gonna feel great. And that's not always the case,
Julie: so why wouldn't you do that? What it seems, you know, it makes so much sense. Right. It really does make sense. Yeah.
Mike: Yeah. And in my simple mind, yeah, that's, yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so again, we're not really dealing with any new information. You guys already know this. It's, seems like you've talked about it before you
Rachel: Yeah. And I don't know Julie, if you can see it through the camera just at the angle and stuff, but I can, what I can see is like he, in his nervousness, like he's more fidgety and Okay. Brought back and forth and like messing with his wedding ring and stuff.
So,
Julie: okay.
Rachel: There's nervousness and there, so when you're [00:55:00] asking about what's happening in his body, he may not recognize it, but I can see the, the fidgety.
Julie: Okay. I appreciate. I, I appreciate you telling me, you know, there are things that unfortunately technology causes us to miss. So that's one of the things that about, about technology that actually is kind of cool, is that partners, I can help them be more attuned to each other to help me know what's going on.
So thank you for that. Um, so Mike, we're gonna have to really lean into this nervousness. It, it's here, it's alive, and I really want to get really, really clear about what it is because I What would you be doing with this nervousness if, if I wasn't here kind of exploring it with you,
Mike: it was just Rachel and I or, .
Julie: Yeah. Or just, yeah.
Mike: I mean, I guess it would de kind of depends on the situation, but I, I would be trying to minimize it, let's put it that way. Okay. [00:56:00] And that's, that's one of the things I know is a big no-no, because that I've learned, you know, recently is it's like, oh, it's not that bad. Like, don't worry about it.
Like, and, and one of the things too, it's just that, and I've told Rachel recently is like, growing up the biggest, one of the biggest things my mom always said was, don't sweat the small stuff. And I've carried that through life and applied it to so many different things. And that is like, you know, a major avoidant tagline I would say.
Um, you know, because it's like, well, is it really small or is there actually something there? But that's, that's how I've managed is, is minimizing things that probably otherwise should be, you know, dealt with or is fairly serious. So,
Rachel: and you'll find easy ways to distract. It's easy to jump into work, it's easy to numb out on the phone.
Julie: Okay. And so again, we know in this cycle that, you know, when [00:57:00] she goes to her painful place, and we're needing to create emotional safety and connection, not 24 hours a day, but in those times when we need each other, um, you, your go-to is just to help her in the same way that you've always
helped you. And it helped me understand again, how you were helped with your pain growing up.
We did talk some about this at our individual session, but let's talk about it here too.
Mike: Yeah. I think, uh, well it was, it was always minimized. Um, if there was something kind of, you know, off, I think it was, you know, I guess always minimized from, you know, if, if somebody did something wrong, it's like, so I guess there's, there's, there's a lot to this, right?
It's. My, my circle is very small and it always has been, you know, never, never been one to have a, a huge circle of [00:58:00] friends or whatever the case is. And it's, you know, and I guess it's, it's like the, the, the people I have around me are like the closest and that's like, you know, and it, it's whenever there's like, was like an issue or anything like that, it's, it's always, you know, I guess I always had one way or another people sticking up for me and like, oh, it's their problem.
Don't worry about it. They're the idiot. You know, just move on. It. Like, there was always a sense of, I, I think as Rachel put it, like she's recognized, like everybody around me always has propped me up. Uh, whether it's, you know, been, you know, a legitimate issue or whatever's going on, but I think that's, that was always just.
That. And then, you know, and then as a young, as a young kid and as a teenager, I was, I was severely overweight, um, all through high [00:59:00] school. Um, and actually in high school and college, I, you know, lost a ton of weight. And, um, but that, that was something that impacted me too. And, you know, there was teasing and there was things like that in my early years, but that was probably, you know, a sense of where some of that numbness came from to some degree.
Um, it was my way to deal and, and to minimize what, you know, people were saying and things like that. But, um, you know, I also recognized that. Know it, it got to be overweight because I resorted to food a lot as a very young kid. And that's what, you know, my parents did. It's like, oh, hey, you're, you know, you're, you're sad.
Or it's like, okay. And then, you know, we come home from school and, you know, mom's got, you know, fresh baked cookies and all this stuff, and it's like, you know, that was like, it was comfort. So that was, I found a lot of comfort in
food. Um, but there was just, you know, lots of, I, I guess the, the, the, the, the, the high level or the, the overarching theme is [01:00:00] kind of like just minimizing of, you know, the emotions that, that very thing that I, that I do today to others is, is kind of how I was raised.
It's not that bad. We'll figure this out.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Again, that was the survival strategy. So let me, let me just, um, kind of talk about something that you mentioned, like. Do you remember, you know, just so I can understand how this affected you emotionally, did, do you remember an episode where you were being teased, like a memory of a moment that that happened?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's, there's, it not, you know, mostly in high school. I mean, I think that junior high, high school, you know, kids get downright mean in some instances, and I think that's, that's probably where a lot of those memories come from. Um, [01:01:00] but it was a, it was always it at that time in my life. It, it always made me resort to a lot of anger.
Um, and just that's how I, you know, I, I think those around me knew that the only way to call me and comfort me, whatever it was, was to. The situation. You're not the, you're not, you're not fat, you're strong and this, that, and the other thing. Like, you know, it was always that kind of stuff. But yeah, like, you know, and, and there was times like in, um, you know, some of the, some of the most vivid memories were like in high school, gym class.
You know, there was, I was, I was big and I was stout, and yes, I could, I could actually bench more than anybody in the class. 'cause I was, I was a burly dude. But there was also a lot of teasing that came with that. And it was, you know, there, there was a, you know, times in the, in the one kid actually tried pushing me down the stairs from behind one time and he, he, you [01:02:00] know, started telling me that I was, you know, overweight, this, that, and the other thing.
But there was just a lot of those memories were, you know, just came from, or didn't come from. But it was, at that time in my life, it was a lot of anger that I was dealing with.
Julie: Okay, so let's, let's explore that. Um, what, what was something someone would say like that would really hit
Mike: Just, I mean, you know, it, it was, you know, just the general stuff and now you're, you're a fat ass, you can't run, you know, this, this, that, and the other thing.
And like, and it was, you know, it was always on, you know, days when we had to go out and run track or whatever. It was always days that I would try to avoid. Um, but it was, you know, it was just a lot of,
Julie: so what, what would come up? Like, just as you say those words, and you go back and I apologize, I know this is hard, but I've gotta bring some emotion to [01:03:00] life here.
Um, what, what would happen to you? What would that do to you? I mean, to hear someone saying, you're a fat ass, you can't run, like
Mike: Yeah,
Julie: it sounds horrible.
Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think it was. It, it made me draw back into like a, you know,
Julie: I know what it made you do. Right. I, I understand that. I wanna know what it did to you, because I wonder if anybody has ever said, what was it like for you to stand there?
Having someone, the kids, and, and I'm sure other kids were around humiliating you. When, has anyone ever said that to you?
Mike: Yeah, I, I, I think that's, you know, exactly. It, it kind of, you know, for, I think the anger was largely around, you know,
Julie: well, lemme ask [01:04:00] you really just again, what, whoever asked you what it was like for you?
Mike: Nobody, because I never wanted to tell anybody. Yeah. If they weren't there and they didn't witness it, that wouldn't, there's nobody that would find out.
Julie: Okay. But even if you did tell someone, I, I wonder if anybody ever responded with wanting to help you put words to those feelings and understand them and hear you and lean into them with you?
Mike: No, no.
Julie: I think what you're, what I'm hearing is that you, you just got messages. Oh, that's not true. Oh. You know, people with the best of intentions wanting to help you, and that's how they were comforting you. So no wonder you don't know how to lean into her pain.
Mike: Yeah. That's
Julie: Nobody ever leaned into yours.
Mike: Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's accurate.
Julie: Okay. Julie, here again. So notice what just happened. We just found the blueprint for Mike's avoidant behavior [01:05:00] when he was dealing with the intense pain and humiliation of being bullied as a kid, the adults in his life, with the best of intentions. Tried to comfort him by minimizing it.
Not because they didn't care, but because that's how they learned to deal with their own painful emotions. They brushed them off, told him he was fine, and you know, offered him distractions. So he learned that the only way to survive
painful emotions is to just minimize them and get away from them as fast as possible.
So of course, when Rachel brings her emotional pain today, he does the exact same thing to her. He isn't trying to be dismissive, he's literally using the only emotional survival strategy he was ever taught.
Mike: I mean, thinking back now, it's, and
Julie: is this something that the two of you have ever talked about? That you know, nobody, I was going through this really brutal stuff.
There's lots of different degrees of suffering, right? [01:06:00] Um, this is a big one. This is a big one. And nobody was there, um, to. To help you put words to it and comfort you and give you space to talk about those feelings. So what you
had to do is, you know, push them underground and get messages that it's not even acceptable to talk about them because nobody's inviting you two.
Right.
Mike: Yeah. And I, I, I think in, honestly, up until probably somewhat recently, you know, in, in coming together with Rachel is I would, I would downright refuse probably to talk about it if anybody tried to, you know, try to, to, to do exactly what we're doing to, to press on that topic. And I just, no, I'm not going there.
That's everything. Talking about high school was just high school was great. You know, that, that's, you know, that's. So I think [01:07:00] that's,
Julie: well, why would you talk about something that, you know, again, I'm not throwing your family under the bus. We all try to comfort our kids in the best way. We know how, I'm sure it was devastating for them too, but how could you ever learn how to talk about these things if nobody's inviting it?
And so on one hand, you know, you don't have the space to do it. And then on the other hand, you develop these beliefs that it's really not okay to talk about these things. Because every time I try, I, someone tries to talk me out of having them.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: And so I wanna know, is this something that you've ever put words to? Nobody leaned into my hurt ever.
Mike: No. No.
Julie: Okay. That's, that's what I want you to share right now with Rachel before you, before you go into thinking. I just wanna kind of stick that, I just wanna, hi, I just wanna take this bite and I just want you to share that with her. Because we now have [01:08:00] another way to understand this.
And this is really gonna help you learn how to, you're leaning into you right now, right? You're doing it just by putting words to this that you said, I don't put words to this. You're not alone with it. And you're showing so much courage. And so now I want you to share that with her.
Mike: Yeah. I think this is a lot of stuff that I, you know, never put words to, you know, how those, how those times impacted me and just those feelings that I had.
And it's something I've really never been open to or willing to talk about and tried to minimize. So,
Julie: and I want you to add, I wanna add something to that, which is, nobody ever leaned into my pain. I never learned how,
Mike: yeah. Nobody has leaned into my pain.[01:09:00]
Julie: Right. So I, I had to learn how to lean out of my own pain. I had to figure out ways, just add that to it.
Mike: Yeah. I had to figure out ways to lean out of my pain and deal with it one way or another.
Julie: Rachel, how's that hitting? What's, what's going on with your heart?
Rachel: Um, I love hearing his heart and just so much sadness for how hard that must have been and how painful it must have been, and to be aware and minimized.
Julie: It sounds to me like you're really here. You're really in this with him and you're leaning in with him.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Yeah.
Well, let me thank you for that. You know, I couldn't ask for a more [01:10:00] supportive response. Let me go over here and see if he, he is able to take that in. Like, how is that hitting you, Mike? I mean, are you able to feel her presence? Is it scary? Is it,
Mike: no, I mean, it, it feels really good. I mean, it's, it's one of the things that, you know, I, I do love about our, you know, relationship is that, you know, Rachel knows how to show up emotionally.
I mean, I think, you know, that's, that's something that is, is clear to me. Um, and it's, and it, it's something we've talked about is, you know, the raw, vulnerable conversations, you know, definitely bring us closer.
Julie: Okay. So I wanna, I wanna um, pause here for just a second. Let's, um, let's take a break. And I have a different direction.
I wanna take us down. So we'll take a a break for five minutes and then we'll come back. How's that? Okay.
Mike: Cool. That [01:11:00] works.
Julie: Alright, so we're going to press pause right there today and what a shift we just witnessed between them. We started this session with Rachel drowning in this belief that she was too much and Mike feeling completely paralyzed and just wanting to fix the problem, but having no idea how to hold her sadness.
But by slowing everything down, we were able to peel back the protective layers and find the little boy inside Mike who had to survive intense humiliation by just numbing out. And when Mike was finally able to drop his intellectual shield and look at Rachel and say, nobody ever leaned into my pain. So I had to learn to lean out of it.
The entire energy in this room changed and the tension evaporated. And Rachel no longer felt rejected or too much. Instead she felt compassion. And here's the thing, when [01:12:00] Mike was able to invite her in that invitation, actually sent the message to her nervous system, you are enough for me. I need you here.
Which is far better than just using the words. Of course you're enough for me. This is the essence of this work. It, it's like the difference between eating a bowl of ice cream and talking about ice cream. We're experiencing it. We're not ignoring the walls that people build up. We're just telling them, look, you have walls, don't have walls anymore.
We're meeting those walls where they are and turning them into the very bridges that actually connect us as humans. So for this week, I want you to reflect on the emotional culture of your childhood home. When you were sad, when you were
scared or humiliated as a child, were you allowed to sit in that paint with a comforting adult or were you just [01:13:00] quickly distracted or told to look at the bright side or told it wasn't a big deal?
So ask yourself, how is my family's emotional blueprint showing up and how I comfort not only my partner today, but myself today? And if you want more structured homework, you can visit my website, the secure relationship.com to find more. And please also check out my book, secure Love, which walks couples through this self-help version of the work I do with couples, uh, in my practice and here in this podcast, including learning how to recognize, prevent, interrupt, and repair these negative cycles so we can go on to have strong
emotional connection and bonds that will help us feel good and close in the relationship and navigate through our everyday problems.
So if you're enjoying the podcast, please take a moment to give us a review on Apple or Spotify. It really helps me get the word out to couples who are in need of more understanding of [01:14:00] what's happening in their relationship that's causing them to hurt and help with their relationships. So, I'll see you next week as we pick up with the second half of this session.
So until next time, take care of yourselves and your relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
