S3 | Session 4: Building a Positive Cycle from the Fear of Disappointment
Leading up to this week's session, we have established a new foundation of vulnerability and we tackle one of the biggest challenges in their relationship: Mike's family. For Rachel, the family dynamic is an environment where she feels constantly pushed to the side. But for Mike, stepping out of line with his parents triggers a profound, physical alarm response in his nervous system. In this episode, we dive deep into the agonizing tension Mike feels being wedged between his wife and his family, and how the intense fear of disappointing others drives his avoidance.
By staying grounded in his body instead of escaping into his head to "fix" the problem, Mike is able to show Rachel his true emotional state. He admits that his avoidance isn't a lack of care, but a desperate attempt to regulate his own overwhelming fear. The moment he shares this vulnerability, everything changes. Rachel doesn't feel abandoned; she feels safe and co-regulated. Together, they take their first steps out of their negative loop and begin building a new, positive cycle.
This Week's Homework: Think about the word disappointment. What actually happens in your body when you know you have to let someone down? Do you rush to over explain? Do you agree to things you don't wanna do? Or do you just avoid the conversation entirely? Notice your own strategies for managing your fear of disappointing others and ask yourself, what is this avoidance costing my primary relationship? And if you want more structured homework, please visit my website at thesecurerelationship.com.
Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.
For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast
Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course
Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime
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S3 | Session 4: Building a Positive Cycle from the Fear of Disappointment
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed couples therapist and author of the book, secure Love Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime Now out on paperback. So today we're jumping right back into our session with Rachel and Mike, and in our last episode, Mike had a major emotional breakthrough.
He realized that his lifelong habit of minimizing Rachel's feelings wasn't because he didn't care, but because it was the exact way his own pain was handled when he was growing up, which is exactly how he learned to deal with his own pain. So the reality is, is that we typically try to manage others' pain in the same way we try to manage our own.
And with avoidant attachment, that looks like minimizing or just trying to make these feelings go away. Even getting defensive is a way of avoiding one's own feelings because it says. What you are saying is bringing up feelings in me I don't know how to face, so I'm going to convince you to see the situation [00:01:00] differently so I don't have to hurt.
So now that we've established a new foundation of vulnerability and safety between Rachel and Mike, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to bring up the biggest surface problem that these two, as a couple are facing in life, which is the complicated relationship they have with Mike's. Family with his parents and siblings.
So for Rachel, the dynamic with Mike's family feels incredibly unsafe. It's an environment where she feels constantly deprioritized and pushed to the side. But for Mike, the dynamic is vastly different. For one, he truly enjoys his family. But then there's this other side of it we'll get more clear about today.
He's received clear messages from the system, from the family system that stepping out of line with them or saying no to them doesn't just feel like the normal disappointment of sometimes having to let people down, that we all feel it actually triggers a profound physical alarm [00:02:00] response in his nervous system.
So in this episode, we're going to dive deep into the psychology of the people pleaser. People pleaser personality and explore this pretty agonizing tension that Mike feels being wedged between his family and his wife, and the intense fear of disappointment that drives his avoidance. Alright, well let's dive in.
Alright, so where I wanna really try to guide us right now is, you know, your comfort zone is to. Explain her her response and talk about her response, but I wanna know what her response to you as she leans in, because this is something that you didn't get a lot of in life, right? And just as she leans in and, and goes into that pain with you, what happens in your body?
I wanna see how your nervous system is responding to that, because she needs to be able to come into you too. And so if there's some [00:03:00] anyway, you just. Tell me and you might not know the answer, and that's okay. That's why we're here.
Mike: I, I, I guess a sense of, just a sense of calmness. I'm not sure how to, how to,
Julie: okay.
So that's okay. Stay with me here. We're just gonna go with calm. We're just gonna stay with calm. And I, and I wanna know. What you think if her reaction would have been different would've been maybe something like. Well, you're an adult now. It's a good thing. You don't have to worry about that now or, well, probably some of those kids ended up with bad lives and look how successful you are now, or I don't know any, any number of responses that are kind of trying to build you up or fix the problem, like do you [00:04:00] think that would've done something different to your nervous system?
Mike: Probably would've amped it up, I would say in a,
Julie: okay, so, so this is good because what we found, and I want you to be really honest with me, and here, what we found is that when she leaned in it, it did calm you. That's what leaning one does, is it is. It calms us. It coregulates us.
Mike: Yeah. I can see that, not only see it, but feel it.
Julie: Okay. So I just want you to share that with her that Yeah, it, I'm really experiencing that co-regulation right now here and now.
Mike: Yeah. I'm just experiencing that. Co-regulation. Co-regulation, and just calmness and connectedness. Pretty awesome. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Let's just kind of linger in this [00:05:00] for a minute.
So if, you know, let's say
outside of here, you know, sometimes she is talking about her pain and her sadness and all the, the things she feels around disconnection, um, which. You were going through as a child, you know, you just learned to minimize it right when you were really struggling. I mean, getting teased like that is a state of disconnection from your peers and then having your family respond to you by not really acknowledging the pain is also a form of disconnection.
So we know what we know. Disconnection hurts, right?
Mike: Right.
Julie: What might get in the way of you kind of being able to just lean in with her and say, you know, [00:06:00] I get it. I see you here.
Mike: I think it's, I think, and it, what's always kind of, again, wanting, wanting to instantly wanting to understand more intellectually, like what I always do.
It's always my default of. Well, wait a minute. Why, why are you, why are you here? Like, that's, it's never, it, that's always the first, the first reaction before even, you know, just considering the emotions and, and sitting with her where she's at. It's, it's always like a need to like understand, understand question.
Yeah. Yeah. She'll. As she says, I'll always dive into a bunch of different questions.
Julie: So it happens, it, it happens just so fast that you don't really even have time to think. Right,
Mike: right. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And so when was the last time this [00:07:00] happened that she came to you and she was hurting? Um, maybe we were talk, you know, the situation with the dinner, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm. That would've been it.
Julie: And how did she come to you with that?
Mike: Yeah. Um, so I think we, if I'm trying to replay this correctly, you know, we had, we had this dinner to go to, um, family dinner and for a birthday party,
and just the family wanted to know if they're invited and some texts were flying back and forth throughout the day.
And then that evening. You know, when we got home to talk about it and, you know, try and figure out what are we actually doing for this birthday. Um, she had voiced her, you know, kind of her, her desires of, to just have it be the immediate family, um, rather than, you know, the, the full family. And
Julie: so what happens [00:08:00] to you just right there when she says, I, I really don't wanna do it that way.
What happens in you? Or what goes through your mind maybe is a better question.
Mike: Uh oh, this is different. it't not what we usually do usually do, do I, how do I respond to the larger family?.
Julie: Okay, so, so the, the trigger is, is I wanna do something d different and then in, or I wanna have a different event. And then in your mind it goes, uhoh, this is different. And then is there any bodily sensation that comes with that?
Mike: I think in situations like this where it feels like I need to let somebody down
Julie: mm-hmm.
Mike: There's, there's always, you know, that's basically where. The tight chest feeling comes from.
Julie: Okay. The tight [00:09:00] chest. Okay, so I want you to close your eyes. Let's see if we can find some of that. And I wanna just imagine your mom saying, wait, what's going on? We always do it this way. Just kind of close your eyes and tell me what happens in your chest.
As I say those words, is that, does the tightening come up?
Mike: It It does. Yeah. I think it's, it's. It's, it's knowing that whether, you know, in a, in a, in a case like this, it's, um,
Julie: alright, slow, slow down with me here. I wanna take this. Remember we've gotta slow this down to really understand what's going on. So you said I get, I get scared.
I get scared, I'm gonna let them down. Is that the fear? I'm gonna let them down. Somebody's gonna get let down.
Mike: I think that's in a nutshell. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Julie, jumping in. So I want you to notice how I'm keeping Mike focused on the physical [00:10:00] sensations in his body, the tightness in his chest. This is the way we ground out of our heads when we have this tendency to just go up and start thinking of solutions and getting out of our feelings.
We ground ourselves in the physical body and for him. Again, it's this tightness in his chest. And for an avoidant partner, accessing the actual emotion is really difficult because they're so used to living in their heads and intellectualizing the problem, and that's not wrong. It's okay to intellectualize problems.
We need to be able to do both. It just can't be at the expense of doing the feeling work too, and, and the body doesn't lie. You know that tightness in his chest is his nervous system screaming danger. By helping him identify this physical sensation as fear, we are building a bridge for him to finally connect with his deeper emotions rather than just analyzing the logistics of family dinner.
And again, the value in this is [00:11:00] that when he can connect with these deeper feelings, well for one, they become less powerful because they aren't getting ignored. And two, it will help him learn new ways to manage these feelings because you can't intentionally manage what you can't name and feel. And then three, feeling his own feelings will help him have more empathy with Rachel's feelings and more ability to give them the space that they need for support.
So he won't have to keep running away from himself or her when he learns to do emotions, when he learns to do vulnerability. So wins all the way around and by doing this vulnerability work, he's going to feel so much better in his own skin. So, so much more empowered and so much more successful as a partner.
Alright, back in. Okay. And so. Some people might say, well, you know, that's part of life is letting people down. We can't please everyone all the time. Um, and, and have some peace that, you know, it's uncomfortable, but they [00:12:00] have some peace around it. What's different for you? Like what, what is so threatening about letting someone down?
What are the consequences to letting someone down?
Mike: I think it's how, it's how, I guess to start it would be. What are they going to think?
Julie: What do you think they're, what's the fear that they'll think Mike: they're not being included because they did something wrong? Julie: Because they did something wrong?
Mike: Yeah. There's like, there's like a sense, there's like a sense of angst there almost for them.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Like it sends a signal that, yeah, something, something's off, something's wrong. Yeah, I guess that's
Julie: okay. So that's what happens, that that's when that alarm bell goes off and you say to yourself, oh no, they're gonna be angsty.
[00:13:00] And they're gonna be angsty because they're gonna take it on and think something's wrong. And, and then what happens if they do think something's wrong? Where does that go? Like, what, what's so bad about? Is it just they're going to suffer? Or, you know, what's so bad for you about them thinking something's wrong?
Is this gonna come back on you? Is it gonna make you the one that's hurting them? Or,
Mike: I think it, it's probably gonna end up in questioning, um, you know, down the road from point, um, you know what, what? What, what were the plans, what changed, um, you know, all those types of things.
Julie: Okay. All right. So you anticipate that this is going to lead into some sort of like interrogation?
Mike: Yeah, I think just, just to kind of, uh, yeah. The, the way the family is, it's, yeah. I think [00:14:00] if, if something's off, there will be questions around it.
Julie: Okay. And what is that? What is, what is it like for you? Like, what's so bad about these questions that your body would actually go into kind of a, an alarm state?
Just thinking about it going there,
where do these questions take you?
Mike: I think to a place of trying to, you know, explain a situation in the case of, you know, this one, you know, the, the particular, you know, I guess issue I would've had is not, I don't feel like I would've been able to give them an acceptable answer.
Julie: And if you can't,
Mike: then tension comes within.
the [00:15:00] relationship.
Julie: Is tension, like anger. They're going to be mad at you.
Mike: And I wouldn't say mad, just, um, whether it's, well, you know, I guess it would be a sense whether they're mad, whether they're hurt, whether they're feeling left out.
Julie: Okay. So part of it is they're going to be uncomfortable. Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: You don't want that. Right. And then another part of it is there, it it like, it's going to be awkward. This tension's going to be in the air. And I'm guessing that's gonna feel bad for your body when you're around them. Where like, is the tension in you that you're feeling from them?
Mike: Yeah, that's
Julie: okay.
And like, what is, how do you know the tension? Is there, are they more quiet? Are they, um, if like, you can't give the right answer.
Do they say less? Do they, are they passive aggressive? I'm just trying to understand how tension shows up.
Rachel: It depends on whether or not I'm around.
Mike: Yeah. [00:16:00] Yeah. I think it, it can, it can be, as Rachel said, it can depend on whether she's around. Um, it can be somewhat maybe passive aggressive at times.
Julie: Even to you.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. If I know there's been hurt. Yeah, absolutely.
Julie: Okay. Can you help me understand, um, what is passive aggressive look or sound like? Like what's a, an example of passive aggressive?
Mike: Like they, they don't get an answer by, you know, the, the time that they're looking for it. Then they'll just send, you know, send a text.
Like, okay, you know, you know what, forget about it, don't worry about it. Julie: Okay.
Mike: We're doing something else. So,
Julie: okay. And so when you see those texts come through, don't worry about it. That's loaded. Right? It's not really, don't [00:17:00] worry about it. It's loaded. Um, what happens to you inside when you see those texts?
Mike: Crap that pissed them off. Um, you know, I, you know, it's just kind of, there's, there's, uh, you, you just know that it's there. There's something's off and it,
Julie: yeah. So you know it is right. So your brain ha gets the information. I wanna know how your body reacts to, don't worry about it. Bam. Something's off threat.
Right then and there. What goes on in your body just as you think about it right now?
Mike: It, it would, it would again be that kind of the tightness in the chest and just that it's like a, it's a feeling of, it's, it's like stressful. Uh, that's how I,
Julie: do you recognize that feeling as fear? [00:18:00] Do you recognize that's fear?
Mike: Before this? No.
Julie: Okay. Yeah, so let's just get really clear about this. You get scared somehow in this pattern of the family relationships.
There's a message that you kind of have to do what we do, and I, I'm not even saying that's, that's a bad thing. It's wonderful that you have, you know, this closeness in your family. There's so many strengths in that, but, but there's still this thing where it's like you can't step outta line if you step outta line in this certain way.
There's consequences here, and the consequences to me sounds like first we're gonna question you, and if you can give us the right answer, then maybe everything will be okay. But if you can't give us the right answer, and in this case, there wasn't a right answer, so the consequences are. Tension and then eventually some, some kind of passive aggressive comment.
And you're gonna get this text and, and your body's gonna go into [00:19:00] fear. And what's, what's the fear about? What are you afraid of? If, are you afraid they're mad at you or, you know?
Mike: Yeah. Fear of disappointing them.
Julie: Okay. All right. So you, you get really, you learned a long time ago that it's, there's not a lot of room for disappointment here.
Mike: No, no.
Julie: Around is, is especially around certain things,
Mike: especially around the family.
Julie: Okay. And it's tricky because I know you like being around them. Right. Mike: Right.
Julie: And so I wanna put that over to the side. I mean, I, maybe there are some more things you have to say about that, but I know that you've mentioned that you really enjoy those times, so I don't wanna take away from that.
But this other problem is very real, that there's not a ton of volition here. Without these emotional, [00:20:00] this emotional stuff that is going to happen, it's going to feel bad at some point when you, when you let them down, you disappoint them. What does that do to you to think of disappointing them? What comes up?
As you say that I don't wanna disappoint them.
Mike: Yeah, I think there's, there, I mean, there's, and that's, I, you know, it's kind of the, that's kind of the funny thing, I guess is it's like, and I think we mentioned it, but there, it feels like there's all these unspoken expectations a lot of the time. And what's interesting is I, I don't really.
I have a whole lot really. I don't know if anything to hang onto of what it means to disappoint them. Um, I may have, you know, dis obviously have at some point in time have disappointed them, but it, it, it, there's nothing that, there's no clear like [00:21:00] result. Like if you know that I can say you.
Afraid of it's, it's, it's like I'm harder on myself than what they really are. Julie: When was the last time you got the text? Like, don't worry about it. Mike: Um,
Julie: well, we can we agree that those texts do come.
Mike: Yeah. No, for sure.
Julie: Okay, so that's the moment, right? That's the moment when you've disappointed them and that's the consequence,
Mike: right?
Julie: So we do know that something happens when they're disappointed. You get a, you don't get, Hey, no problem. You know, we love having you around, but we know sometimes things come up.
Can't wait for you to come next time, or, Hey, everything okay? Oh, Rachel wants to have a private thing. Okay, [00:22:00] cool. I get that. Sometimes we like to have private things too. Or no problem. I can accept that. Instead, you get rejection. That's real.
Mike: Yeah, and I think what, what you actually just said there is one of the things that I, I kind of get angst around is that text of, is everything okay?
Because that is a loaded one that feels like, oh boy, okay, there's an explanation needed here. Um,
Julie: this is not a real, they're not really asking if you're okay. They're, what are they, what's the message in that?
Mike: Right? Yeah. What, what's, what's going on? What, what, why, why are we, why, you know, what, what's going on, I guess is the, is the other way of.
Julie: Why are you stepping out one? Right? And so let's just kind of sit with that word. Let's see if that word brings anything up. It, it's, you end up getting [00:23:00] rejected if you assert something that's different from the way that they're needing it to be. For them to feel safe for something about this is safe for them and they get threatened.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Does that feel rejecting in that moment?
I'm just trying to help you get words to your experience so you can tell me if this doesn't feel right,
Mike: like, so is it re, is it, do I feel rejected if I know I disappoint them? Is that kind of the
Julie: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike: Uh, there might be a little bit of that, um, depending on what it is. Um. Julie: What we do know is that they're going to be disappointed.
Right. And I'm trying to understand how your body responds to them being [00:24:00] disappointed in you and how you make sense of that and what the pain is around that for you. Because whatever it is, it's so big. Let me just ask
this, um, before we try to. Push too hard to get more clear about the pain. How do you try to avoid this bad place?
We know it's a bad place, right?
Mike: Mm-hmm.
Julie: It's a bad, bad place for them to be disappointed for you. Mike: Yeah. And traditionally it's always explain and justify my way out of it.
Julie: But that takes so much energy and you may be successful with that and you might not be, and it might take a while. Right. So, so it sounds to me like you'd rather just avoid all of that.
Yeah. And is that when you maybe say to Rachel, we have to go anyway, or is that when you maybe try to [00:25:00] talk her out of it? Like how do you respond to her when all of this comes up in you?
Mike: I think exactly that. I think that's, that's what me knowing what the outcome could be or would be is, you know, kind of where I think I, you know,
Julie: so, so we're just thinking of like the function of that.
Right. Because what happens is, is she gets the message that she's not a priority. She gets the message that you just don't care. Right. But I'm not really hearing that. That's what this is all about. What I'm hearing is that there's some pain that comes up in you. It's overwhelming. It's a lot to think of letting them down and disappointing them.
And the way that you've learned to regulate this is to just try not to disappoint them. Just don't go there at all. And have you ever said this to Rachel that. You know, [00:26:00] I understand it's not working for you, that I'm not able to, um, respond in the way that you're needing. Whatever that looks like. It's not, it doesn't always mean doing what everything she wants you to do, right.
But you're not able to respond to those distress signals on her end because you are trying to regulate your own emotions around this. Like, look how emotional you are. Right?
Mike: Yeah. No, I think, I think that's very accurate. Yeah. I mean it's,
Julie: okay. So I want you to share that with her, that you understand that it's not working, but that's not really, you're not just randomly trying to not care about her or not prioritize her.
You're actually trying to manage these fears in the best way that you know how, it's how you've learned to regulate your own stuff.
Okay, Julie here. So this is the crucial reframe of the entire [00:27:00] negative cycle. For years, Rachel has interpreted Mike's avoidance of family convict flick as proof that he doesn't love her enough or prioritize her.
Right here we are rewriting that narrative. Mike isn't siding with his family against Rachel. He is drowning in an overwhelming fear of disappointing anyone. His avoidance isn't a lack of love. It's a desperate attempt to regulate his overloaded nervous system. When Rachel can hear it that way she doesn't have to take it personally and they can finally tackle this problem as a team.
Alright, let's jump back in.
Mike: Yeah. I think, you know, in these instances it's, it's definitely not that you're, you know, you don't matter or you know, that it's, it's, you know, not that I'm dropping you, it's, it's definitely, it's. Manage, [00:28:00] you know, the fears I have, the best way I'm able or knowhow.
Julie: So how is it to put some words to that, does that feel new?
Mike: It does, for sure. I think it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting to even identify that core fear of disappointment as. One of those foundational kind of, I think there's so much there that, you know, that there, there's, there's, there's just a lot of close people in my life that I don't wanna disappoint and there's, it's, it's, it's almost heavy in a sense that know you, I just don't want to , and that's what,
Julie: it's tricky because.
There's really no way to completely avoid that. Right. I know you know that. Mike: Right. [00:29:00] And I think that's what's, yeah.
Julie: And it sounds like you're, you're kind of exhausted. Sounds like you're a little exhausted trying to make everyone happy.
Mike: Yeah. I'd say that's, that's accurate. Yeah. And in particular, when points of Tension come up and there's disagreement and.
You know, I know somebody's gonna be disappointed that that is a, it's a tough place for me to be. And it, and it is. It's emotionally exhausting. It's, it's just, there's just, yeah.
Julie: Well, I just wanna say that I'm really sorry that you've been carrying that burden around for so long. Because it is a heavy load.
It is a heavy, heavy load. Somehow you had to learn to do that, to stay safe, and I'm really looking forward to unpacking more about what disappointment does to you, or what, I guess I should say, what feeling like a disappointment does to you, [00:30:00] because it sounds pretty bad.
Mike: It's pretty scary
Julie: that your whole life you've had to try to avoid that pain.
And, and won't it be nice when we figure out a way for you to, um, you know, do these relationships in a way that can make space for disappointment in, in maintaining connection at the same time it's possible.
Mike: Yeah. That's, it's definitely him. It'd be, it'd be, yeah. Very refreshing in a sense.
Julie: You think you might feel lighter?
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: So, so right now we're we're just talking about the value of emotional engagement just for you, right? Just for you as a person. You see that value? Yeah. [00:31:00] So I want you to share that with Rachel, that like I'm starting to see the value of this work just for me, not just for our relationship, but just for me.
Mike: Yeah. Starting to see the value. For sure. This, you know, the work for me and I know it'll fold into us and so yeah, it's. Yeah. And then, and you know, Julie too, like my, just to put a kind of a finer point on it, like one of the biggest areas I struggle with that disappointment is being wedged between disappointing the family and disappointing Rachel.
That is, that is a very, very tough spot that I find myself in a lot.
Julie: I don't envy you. I can just feel how hard that's been and I really, really hope that I can help you. Um, again, lighten that load so it doesn't have to be [00:32:00] like that forever, because you, you deserve more. Both of you do and I think we can get there.
Alright, well, Rachel, how, how is your heart doing? How are you taking this?
Rachel: It's nice. It's nice for. him to be able to put words to it and voice it himself. I've often asked those things and I think he was like, no, that's not, that's not, that's not accurate. That's not how I feel. That's not how, you know, and so, and it made me question, but I, it's, it gives me hope and it it's pieces of his heart that I want to know.
Julie: Does that, is it feeling, um, is it helping your nervous system calm when you hear him engage with himself more [00:33:00] fully?
Rachel: It's almost an excitement excited for, for him.
Julie: That's good. A positive. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. So I just want, I just want you to tell him that, that there. You know, we're looking for impacting each other's nervous system in a positive way.
Right? And he, he's over here saying, look, I, the, the worst thing in the world is to disappoint Rachel. And right now he's doing something which is just emotionally engaging with himself. That is really having a positive impact on your emotional state. Isn't there a success in that, Mike, to know that? We have another tool to help her feel good.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. So this is what we just wanna keep building on, is just these moments and, and that we can keep repeating and hearing [00:34:00] outside of here that build positive feelings. This is a positive cycle and
your nervous systems know it. Right. Your bodies feel it.
Mike: Yeah. So.
Rachel: It's foreign, but it, it, yeah, it feels good.
Julie: Well, good. Yeah. Hopefully it won't be so foreign. Hopefully it'll be the new, the new norm is what we're looking for is
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Calm, peaceful. I mean, life is life, but you know what I mean, between the two of you, I should say.
Mike: Yeah.
Rachel: And I guess so, um, I mean, it, it's super helpful to understand. The path that he is working down and through, like in that split second when the text comes in and it's like, are we doing this or not? And I know that he's feeling wedged between us, but I've not understood the [00:35:00] layers of the fear, the disappointment in all of that.
So in those moments. To be able to support him? Is it me identifying that and saying, you know, this is probably a moment where you're getting fearful about disappointing someone,
like I don't know how to put it into practice, to be able to support him in the moment, I guess.
Julie: Yeah, no, we, we have some work, work to do to really get that, um, where it needs to be to, to where it, you know, flows really easily. Part of that work is continuing to explore with him and understanding more about what, what's happening for him so we can listen to what's happening for him and understand what it's needing.
I need to figure out what the pain is about and what the pain is needing in these moments to not have to be [00:36:00] there. To heal. Heal and to not get triggered to begin with. And so we don't have to get so scared, right? So that's goal number one.
Rachel: Okay.
Julie: And then goal number two is when it happens anyway, he knows how to kind of help himself there and eng and find that place and put some words to it and reach to you for help there.
So he doesn't have to be alone with it,
Rachel: right
Julie: and so you. You know, he's gonna get more clear about what, what will help him feel Okay. What he's needing. Um, and then it also is very nice when we know our partner's triggers because we know them. So the times when maybe they're not able to put words to it and they're not resourced for whatever reason, sometimes we can come in and help them out, um, and say, Hey, I know this is one of those times when you're scared.
And that's you being that co co-regulating presence.
Yeah, but lets say it [00:37:00] happens.
Between now and tomorrow morning, which it probably won't, but um, yeah, I mean this could be one of those moments where you just kind of lean in and say, Hey, I know you're scared right now. Or Mike, even better, you lean in and say, this is one of, you know me. This is one of those moments when I get kind of scared and just I just do something, hold each other.
Um, anything that you can do to co-regulate, I mean, you don't really, to be honest with you, have the skills right now to navigate much past that. This is all very new. I mean, this is very new to Mike. Like I don't think he was lying to you when he said that's not what's happening. I don't think he had any idea that's what was happening.
So we're still new to this, but that's the end game is yes, that we can be able to talk about this freely and help each other out in these moments. And then of course. Heal to the point that they happen less to begin with. And it, it does [00:38:00] require, and I know this is gonna scare you, Mike, but um,
Mike: great.
Julie: I mean, it does, it's gonna require some healthy assertion on your side, you know, setting, setting some more clear boundaries and just being more confident with being able to say no. And, you know, um, ways that you can also come in. Uh, do it safely for your parents. I love you guys so much, but you know, here's what's going on.
And then, um, it takes some a adjust. Sometimes when we start doing this with our families, it, it does take some adjustment. It kind of freaks them out at first
because it's new and scary. But they will settle in the new, new, new, but we don't have to go there right now. I know that's probably. No, not what you're needing to hear.
Yeah. It, it, it takes a bit. That's a process. I never want someone to go from, you know, zero to a hundred with that process because you have to do it to get used to, 'cause it's, you know, the [00:39:00] feelings that you have to deal with from doing it. Can be really big and overwhelming. So we have to kind of ease you into it.
We don't wanna just throw you into to the deep end and say swim because you'll, you'll never do it. You'll just fall right back on the old pattern. So we have to do it really titrated in safely.
Mike: Cool. Okay, that makes sense.
Julie: Hope that makes sense.
Mike: I think so we'll find out. I think,
Julie: well, let's just say this.
We, we still have, um, a lot of hours to go and a lot of unpacking of this to do, and you did a great job today and I think we're off to a really good start. So thank you for going there with me. I know it, it took me a while to weave around and kind of find where we needed to be, but we got there, right?
Mike: Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Rachel: Good work.
Mike: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Mike: Thank you
Julie: . Yeah. Good work, Mike. You're, you're so successful [00:40:00] and I mean that.
Mike: Are you? Are you sure that wasn't sarcastic Julie?
Julie: Take that in. Okay. I'll see you guys in the morning.
Alright, well that brings us to the close of this incredible session. So as you can see, Mike has been carrying a heavy burden for a long time, his whole life.
We saw so clearly today how the role of the fixer and the people pleaser is rarely a peaceful one. It takes a lot of anxiety to keep it going, and Mike didn't even know the anxiety was there because part of avoidant attachment is becoming so disconnected from it, and this is what we mean when we talk about getting disconnected from one's own body.
So when those text messages roll in from his family, questioning his choices, his body goes into full alarm mode. And because he never learned how to tolerate that fear of disappointing them, he just learned to emotionally survive by avoiding the conflict altogether. But the tragedy we [00:41:00] uncovered today is that by avoiding the fear of disappointing his family, he was actively abandoning his wife.
The turning point happened when he could finally own that reality. He was able to look at Rachel and validate her experience saying, I'm not dropping you because you don't matter to me. I'm dropping you because I don't know how to manage my own fear. That level of honesty is the exact ingredient needed to build secure attachment.
And I've said this before and I'll say it again. You know this family situation isn't the relationship problem itself. The fact that they can't navigate this together in a way that feels workable for each of them as individuals and for the relationship between them, meaning they keep slipping back into negative cycles around this issue.
The issue isn't the actual problem. The issue is a symptom of a much bigger problem, the emotional disconnection and safety, and when couples can learn to do vulnerability, both within themselves as [00:42:00] individuals and between each other. And by vulnerability, I meaning access, feeling, talking about deeper emotions, managing deeper emotions in new, in new ways.
When couples learn to do this, the symptoms like the family stuff really do start to work themselves out, and you'll see as this therapy progresses that we don't just have to keep talking about the family thing over and over because it heals
and it heals as they heal. For, for this week's homework, I want you to think about the word disappointment.
What actually happens in your body when you know you have to let someone down? Do you rush to over explain? Do you agree to things you don't wanna do, or do you just avoid the conversation entirely? Notice your own strategies for managing your fear of disappointing others, and ask yourself, what is this avoidance costing my primary relationship?
And if you want more structured homework, please [00:43:00] visit my website@thesecurerelationship.com. And as always, you know, we wanna hear from you. Please send your questions or voice notes, breakthroughs. Also love to hear those too. support@thesecurerelationship.com. Please take a minute to go to Apple or Spotify and leave us a review.
Helps me get the word out to couples in need of this information. And thank you for holding space for this work today. Thank you to Rachel and Mike for your vulnerability. And until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
