S3 | Session 5: What Does Your Fear Need?
Have you ever fought so hard for a connection that one day, you simply run out of energy? You stop yelling. You stop protesting. You just… go quiet.
That is exactly where we find Rachel today. Exhausted from years of feeling emotionally dropped, Rachel's nervous system is so overloaded that she has shifted from anxious pursuit into complete emotional numbing. She is grappling with a dark, heavy belief that she is fundamentally 'too much' to be loved. In this episode, we gently unpack that heavy suitcase of grief. We trace Rachel's fear of rejection all the way back to her childhood, to a little girl who was teased and left entirely alone to manage her pain.
We explore what happens when we use "distractions"—focusing on the thousands of little problems we have to solve throughout the day—as a way to control the dark, horrible place of feelings inside of us. You will hear how those early experiences of emotional abandonment built the invisible walls Rachel is hiding behind right now, and what happens when we finally slow down to ask the body: What is your fear fearing? What does your fear need?
This Week's Homework: I want you to think about how you manage your own overwhelming feelings. When you feel deeply sad or rejected, do you try to intellectualize it? Do you obsessively try to solve the 'problem' to make the pain go away? Or do you just busy yourself with tasks to numb out completely? Notice your own escape routes this week. The next time you feel the urge to run, ask yourself what it would look like to simply sit with the feeling for one extra minute instead of trying to outrun it.
We would love to hear what you discover. Send us a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and your story might be featured in a future episode.
Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.
For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast
Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course
Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime
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S3 | Session 5: What Does Your Fear Need?
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno, licensed therapist and author of the book, secure Love Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime Now out on paperback. So have you ever fought so hard for a connection? Not one day. You just simply run out of energy.
You, you stop yelling, you stop. Protesting. You just go quiet. Well, this is exactly where we find Rachel today as we drop into our next session. If you've been following their journey, you know that Rachel, our anxious partner, has spent years feeling like she's fighting a lonely battle to be a priority in Mike's life, especially when it comes to his family.
But the exhaustion has finally set in. Today, we aren't looking at a loud argument. We are looking at a silent retreat. Rachel's nervous system is so overloaded by the feeling of being emotionally dropped, that she's just [00:01:00] shifted from this anxious pursuit into just an a complete emotional numbing. She's grappling with this dark, heavy belief that she's just fundamentally too much to be loved.
This part of her is carrying that belief around. So in this episode, we're going to gently unpack this heavy suitcase of grief. We're gonna, uh, trace her fear of rejection all the way back to its origin, which was long before she ever even met Mike. And we're we're gonna go back to her childhood, to this little girl who was teased and left entirely alone to manage her pain.
So you're going to hear how those early experiences of emotional abandonment built the invisible walls that she's still hiding behind today. So this is an episode about what happens when the people who are supposed, supposed to protect us don't, and how we carry that survival instinct into our marriages.
So let's go ahead and step into this session. Alright, [00:02:00] well, let's go ahead and jump in. We, we end it. Well, first of all, let me just check in with you guys. Are at today, since our last session.
Mike: I think we're in a pretty good spot trying to, just trying to stay above water at work. That's the, it's the biggest thing I think that's been, and obviously we, you know, we work together, so that's, we always have so much to talk about there.
Um, but yeah, I think, you know,
Rachel: I don't know that we really debriefed too much after the last session. I think we're, obviously he had a lot of mental work and emotional work. Last time, time. Um, we talked about it a little bit, but not, not really in depth about anything.
Julie: Okay. And I know you had mentioned, you know, that difficulty kind of debriefing after sessions in the past.
Did you have that experience of feeling like unprocessed or there was something that you couldn't unresolved? I guess maybe was the feeling that I think you described. [00:03:00]
Rachel: I think I'm always looking for a debrief with Mike, after a session it, and I, you know, I think it stems from just for so long longing to know where he's at with things and wanting to know what's going on with him.
But I also know that he needs more time to process and obviously after an intent session, like the last one was for him. The last thing I wanna do is pile on and try to pull more out of him. Um. I think it's just too quick. So I'm trying to, I think, figure out maybe what a, a good cadence is for us to be able to try and debrief and talk about things.
Um, and I think the last session was interesting in that it's very much what I had observed going on family dynamic, but I did not realize how heavy it was on him.
Julie: Sure.
Rachel: And it makes a lot of [00:04:00] sense for why he's behaved the way that he has his whole life and in our marriage. But it's definitely had an impact on the marriage.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: And I, I don't know that he obviously just didn't recognize it the first several years.
Julie: No. Or his, or his whole life.
Rachel: Right, right. And that's even, I think when I started poking into it with him, with our other therapist and things, I think, I think it was surprising to you to learn how much the family dynamics and family expectations impacted you.
Mike: Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely. Uh, yeah. Initially a lot of resistance around it.
Rachel: Yeah,
Mike: for sure. Admittingly. So,
Julie: um, yeah, that's a good topic for today. Um, but [00:05:00] first when you don't know how heavy it is on him, and we have lots of good reasons. You don't know that. Right? Um, none of which include, he was just trying to kind of deliberately withhold from you.
And we're seeing this, um, when you don't know. How heavy it was on him. What is your mind fill in the blanks with whenever you see this behavior of him? You know, kind of what you describe as deprioritizing you and prioritizing the family.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And you've had some ideas in your mind that this is some fear that he's carrying around and what you've described as en mesh.
So, um. What happens to you when you aren't hearing from him? How heavy it is on you?
Rachel: On him or,
Julie: yeah, on, I'm sorry. When you're not hearing from him. When he is not able to say, Hey, this is really heavy on me. Here's, here's what's going on. And [00:06:00] Mike, again, you've had really good reasons to not be able to do that, but I just wanna highlight how this has a cycle when we're not able to share what's really going on, the fears and the deeper pain around.
These behaviors that we just see on the surface.
Rachel: Yeah, and it definitely was part of the cycle because I would bring things up and again, highlighting it, talking about it, how it made me feel. And so again, if there weren't changes, then in my mind I made sense of it as it was a willing choice that he was making sure to behave that way.
Julie: Right. And that's what cycles do. Because if we're not getting any information to the contrary, our brains are gonna fall back on, you know, what
the way that we've learned to make sense of things. And one of those ways is it's, he's doing it. He must be doing it on purpose.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: Right. [00:07:00] And then, and then it's not, now it's, it's more than just the pain of the disconnection around the actual issue.
Now it's. Why on earth would he be wanting to do this on purpose to me? And then Right.
Rachel: And, and that feeds into what we talked about last time for me is he must not really want me.
Julie: Yeah. So just to kind of map this out here, um. There's a lot, a lot going on with you, and I don't know which piece of this I would like to explore a little more because I, I do think there's some value in getting some wor more words to it on your side, but the one, the first thing that's hard is just the disconnection of it all, of not knowing that you have a say here you have a, your priority, at least your words will have as much weight as his family's words and needs.
Right?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: I don't know.
You know, you just need to know that you're an equal and we're the priority. And then on top of [00:08:00] that is the abandonment experience of why doesn't he want to show up for me?
Rachel: Right
Julie: and then on top of that is the shame experience that says, and it's my fault. Maybe it's, maybe some of this is my fault.
He if I were better or whatever. And we'll get into that later. He would wanna show up for me.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: And then on top of that is the fear that this won't end.
Rachel: Definitely.
Julie: No wonder you've been struggling
a lot. Yeah. So let's just kind of sit here in this place because I, I don't know if, I mean, how often do you kind of organize it as all of these things happening at once? Every time these triggers come in, or every time you even think about this?
Rachel: I would say in the past there used to [00:09:00] be a lot of rumination on some of those things. I don't know that I have ever taken it down to layer by layer by layer and realized how much is stacked on there. Um, but I mean. There were a lot of nights where I was awake from, you know, one to 4:00 AM or two to 4:00 AM and it would just be constant rumination about all of that.
Julie: When you were in that rumination place, um, was that like just a lot of thinking, trying to sort it all out? Or was that actually kind of sitting with the pain? How did that look?
Rachel: No, I think rumination for me is like, it, it's the intellectual piece of. This is what's happening. It, it feels this way. It's awful.
What do I do to get out of it? It was never sitting with the emotion or the pain because that [00:10:00] felt shameful. Like, like, I shouldn't be feeling this way. He is a good guy, a great guy, and so many ways you, this is a me problem, just being too much and needing and wanting too much.
Julie: So I'm actually bad for even feeling all of this pain.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yet the pain is still there. And so how, how do you even reconcile all of that?
Rachel: Right.
And so and so, I think that's kind of where the shift came to is like, that was exhausting. Not having decent sleep because of it was exhausting. And so then shifting from, you know, the earlier behaviors in my, in the cycle.
It was easier to detach and just not, not pick up the rumination. You know, detaching allowed me to just like leave that behavior behind. But still, there's, I mean, detaching is such an emptiness and [00:11:00] loneliness too.
Julie: So the detaching protected you from the anxiety of the rumination or the anxiety that caused the rumination was leading to the rumination.
But then again, what's the downside to this detachment? Because the detachment wasn't just from him, it was also, it sounds like from yourself.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And so what comes up is as we, you know, again, let me just bring this to life. There's the disconnection of the event there. There's the abandonment in it that says he's leaving me, he's not there for me.
There's then the shame that says, and it's my fault, and I know there's blame in there too, right? There always is, but then there's the fear. This is never gonna end.
And then, so what would happen is, is this would get hit in these moments [00:12:00] when just the text come, comes through from his mom or however it happens. Right? And then this all gets hit. And what you're telling me is that your brain just defaults into, was defaulting into rumination, rumination, rumination.
But the anxiety of that just became too much to bear.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Anxiety that is required for rumination
Rachel: yeah, I mean, I think as we had been working with our other therapists, you know, when we were trying to do things differently, I was certainly attempting to like catch that stuff sooner and differently. But you know, sometimes you get traction and can do that and sometimes you don't have the traction and you just kind of spin out and go.
Julie: Okay. And so you're saying you were trying to kind of [00:13:00] get into those feelings and sit with them a bit more than you had in the past?
Rachel: Yeah. I would use the tempo,
Julie: yes. Okay.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And that was really helpful, but sometimes you couldn't, you couldn't get there. And then, so in those moments, you, you, this one strategy is just keep ruminating, but that got, that strategy expired and then, then you went into just this like less of I think a detachment and more of a numbing out.
That's what I'm hearing.
Rachel: Okay. Okay. Yeah,
Julie: that's, am I right? You tell me you're,
Rachel: I don't, I guess I don't really know what the difference would be between the two.
Julie: Well, a detachment is where you're still attached to your own pain, but you're detaching from the, in the context, I'm using this word, but you're detaching from the expectation of him, which also brings up pain, but you're actually grieving and feeling that pain numb is when you're really just kind of like shutting it all down and just going about life in a [00:14:00] kind of, I don't know, slightly dissociated way.
Rachel: So it's probably more or
Julie: very dissociated. Okay.
that would be accurate? okay
Rachel: yeah.
Julie: Okay. And then when he sees you in the numb place, then what, in, in just looking at the cycle, what goes through his mind from your perspective?
Rachel: Here we go again.
Julie: And so were you ever able to say, and maybe you have again, I'm. Trying to find stuff here. Um, were you able to say, my body, I am not just randomly
trying to give you the silent treatment, like my body actually goes numb because it doesn't know what else to do with all of this pain?
Rachel: I don't know that I was able to be that clear, but there have been moments in the past several months where.
Depending on the situation that came up I in, it was kind of [00:15:00] like in that split second where I knew that I could, either the trigger hit me and I could stay silent about something, or it was the moment to hop up and say something to him. And so I had started practicing that, I think particularly, and just coming to him and saying, Hey, I know this is, you know, something that we typically struggle with or that this is.
Of those things where we're not gonna be sure how to handle it. And I'm feeling this way. Um, and I, I might even throw in there like, I'm not even sure exactly how I feel about it yet, but I know it's something that we're gonna need to talk about or work our way through and we need to circle back to it here.
Julie: Okay. So you're, you're able to communicate that way. Um, I'm just wondering, I guess a better question is when does he see. This heaviness. When you're detached. When you're numb, when does he see the [00:16:00] heaviness?
Rachel: I don't know that I've been willing to share it anymore. . Mike: I think I see it physically though, pretty quick.
Yeah.
Rachel: In my demeanor. Definitely, yeah, because I just withdraw and I'm quiet.
Julie: When you did share the heaviness, again, I know I'm maybe doing being repetitive here, but when you did share the heaviness, 'cause you're telling me like again, like. The pain and the disconnection, the pain and the abandonment, the pain and the shame, the pain and the fear.
When you did share that, what were those words like? Not that you did anything wrong, I'm just trying to get him to better understand your heaviness and better see your heaviness just like you're able to see his last time.
Rachel: That's a good question. Um.
I'm trying to think of some of the last instances where this would've happened, and I don't, if you can think of something, [00:17:00] I don't know what kind of words I use. Like maybe it's more like I'm uncomfortable or this hurts because, or I don't know.
Mike: It was, it was honestly probably around the job stuff maybe. Rachel: But I don't remember what words I would've used.
Julie: Okay, so here's, here's kind of where I'm, here's kind of where I'm going with this is that, you know, in the future when this stuff gets hit, right, I need for you guys to be able to support each other. And the more clear you are about what's really happening inside of you, the more opportunity he's gonna have to support that, because we're gonna try to understand what that's needing.
And of course, then I need to go over here and get him able to support that. And then I need to get him able to share more, which is what he did last time, so that you can support him. So I wanna get a little bit more [00:18:00] detailed with you so you can have a better, better understanding of what your pain is needing.
And so I wanna know, like I. Of these things that I've listed, the disconnection, you know, tell me about that. Just that piece, the disconnection that you feel when you don't know that you're a priority.
Rachel: It's painful. It hurts. Mm-hmm.
Julie: What's the pain about What, when you say hurts? What's hurt? Rachel: Like even now?
It just feels like a tightness in my chest. My heart hurts.
Julie: Okay, so is that, is that just like a sad
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Let's just hold here. This is the place that needs more space and your body has known this place of disconnection, not knowing your needs matter, not feeling like a priority. You've known this
Rachel: my whole life.
Julie: Yeah. [00:19:00] What has it been like your whole life for you to not know that your a priority. Is that the pain?
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, it's made me question why I'm here.
Julie: Yeah. Alright. That's the part that goes in and says, should I even be here? You know, just, just notice your brain just so fast goes into making sense of the pain, right?
It wants to get out of the pain.
And if you can say to yourself, I shouldn't even be here. I, I wonder how does that, in a, in that even question to yourself, how does that maybe even help you with that pain? That place that you go is designed to help. Right? How does asking the question, should I even be here help?
Does that give you an out?.
Rachel: I mean, I think it, it's just a way to try and find some logical [00:20:00] reason. And if you can find the logical reason, it's like some sort of certainty. Like if there's an answer, it is what it's,
Julie: yeah.
Rachel: And that's something I realized just with the anxious attached behaviors is I'm, I'm always looking for certainty for safety.
Julie: So it's better to be able to make sense of the lack of safety in a way that has a solution than to not be able to make sense of it at all.
Rachel: Right
Julie: right. And so the way that you make sense of it is I must just not belong here.
And then if that's true, then what can you do to help yourself? Rachel: My reaction is just that I want to escape.
Julie: Yeah, exactly. And what happens is, is that, you know, before we get to [00:21:00] how can I make sense of this? What's the solution? We're missing
that piece of just sitting with the feelings and trying to kind of understand better what these feelings are actually needing from you and from him.
Rachel: And that's a, it's a weird spot to be in because
Julie: I don't know, like it's hard to sit there if I don't know what to do exactly. Because no one's ever taught you how to sit with your feelings and just kind of listen to them and listen to the wisdom in them and try to understand better what they're needing.
And, and has this come up in other parts of life where you can't really make sense of it, your pain, you don't know how to go into the pain and be with it and process it and hear it. And so you just go up to, well, how can I make sense of this? And find a solution. [00:22:00]
Rachel: All areas. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Give, can you gimme an example?
Rachel: Even losing my first husband, it's like there was no sitting with emotions or trying to understand them, or
it was, you know, I have to survive each day. That's where my energy went. Julie: Mm-hmm. And how did you survive each day?
Rachel: Put one foot in front of the other
Julie: focus on, you know, the thousands of little problems we have to solve throughout the day. Right. What for breakfast, what to wear, what to, you know, which work to start first.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And [00:23:00] you know, there, there are. Good feelings that we get from having these little experiences of success throughout the day, getting the job done, checking the box, you know,
Rachel: good distractions.
Julie: Those solutions are,
Rachel: they're good distractions.
Julie: Yeah. They're distracting because they, again, they allow us to have these little successes. These little feelings of, of being, having something to be in control of.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: When you can't, when you don't know how to control this dark, horrible place of feelings inside of you.
'cause nobody ever taught you, you were left alone with that place your whole life.
Rachel: Yep.
Julie: Yeah. And, and so what we're kind of seeing here is that. In a way that looks very different on the surface. You've been trying to manage your own [00:24:00] feelings in the same way that he often tries to manage his own feelings, right?
Which is solution oriented.
Okay, Julie, jumping in here. So this is a fascinating moment. You know, we typically think of the avoidant partner as the one who runs from emotions into problem solving mode. But here we see that Rachel, our anxious partner, does the exact same thing internally. She was never taught how to safely sit with her own sadness.
She just learned to escape it by either obsessively ruminating on finding a solution or just completely numbing out. And it's a, a powerful reminder that underneath these anxious and avoidant. Labels. Both partners are often utilizing the exact same survival mechanisms trying to just escape unmanageable pain.
It's just that on the surface, we usually see them doing that in very different ways. I can escape the pain by figuring out how to fix the external problem that's causing the pain, which there is truth to that. I.[00:25:00]
Little feelings of control and success to avoid the other stuff. Rachel: Definitely.
Julie: Yeah. And, and so what that has looked like here is one way that you manage the pain of the disconnection. Every time these triggers come at you is your brain goes to, well, maybe I shouldn't be here, maybe I should leave.
Rachel: Yeah.
Yeah.
Julie: And then what do, what do you think, just so we understand the cycle here, like, 'cause this isn't the message, the real message, but what's the message that then he's getting when you're of the, in this place of, I should maybe just go
and maybe I should ask him that. Yeah.
Rachel: I don't know. I mean, I assume it's just that I'm not happy [00:26:00] and I'm not committed.
Julie: Right, and, and what he is not seeing is he is not seeing the more nuanced version of that, the deeper version of that. The heavier version of that. No. So why don't you just share that with him, that, you know, I have never known what to do with my sadness either, and part of my.
You know, saying, I need to just leave. This is my solution. The way that I've learned to deal with pain is find solutions. That's just another solution to help me regulate this hurt inside of me that I don't know what else to do with. Can you just share that with him Right now,
Rachel: my whole life, I've never known what to do with this sadness. The only solution I've had is to run from it and leave.
Julie: Sometimes it's leave the present. [00:27:00] Focus on, I mean, leave the, leave the pain by focusing on life. Sometimes it's leave the pain by just leaving the situation. Am I getting it?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. What's coming up as you, as you put words here, what are these tears about?
Rachel: Just remembering all the different stages of life and how that looked for me as a kid. It was running to the bathroom to escaping, teased as a teenager, it was. Hopping in my car and driving off and listening to music and in relationship it was just saying, I must need to leave.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Physically or emotionally.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.[00:28:00]
It makes me sad for,
Julie: it's sad. Yeah.
Rachel: Every stage of life.
Julie: Mm-hmm. So if you, you know, had to learn to run away from it, um, to regulate it, what do you think it was really needing? What do you think this sad, sad place has really been needing this whole time? That it wasn't getting
Rachel: belief that I was entitled to what I was feeling.
Julie: Okay.
If you believed that you were entitled to what you were feeling, what would've been different?
Rachel: There wouldn't have been shame around it or a need to escape. Okay.
Julie: So if you were [00:29:00] able to own it, right, and say, Hey, it's so valid that I'm here.
That would've been a, the first step in helping.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, it makes sense for a kid who's being teased and nobody's stepping in, it makes sense that they're going to be sad and hurt and in pain.
Julie: Right. But nobody was telling you that. No. So you had to tell yourself, I don't deserve to feel this pain.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: I should, what did you say? I should just get over it.
I should have thicker skin, like
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Yeah.
Rachel: That was like the first evidence of that I can remember of feeling like I was too much.
Julie: So what, what we're learning here is that one thing that this paint is really, really needing is just validation.
Rachel: Yeah.[00:30:00]
Julie: Yeah, and it, it's, it's two levels of validation. One is the validation just from yourself, which says, of course I'm hurting. Of course, it hurts when I'm getting these messages that my voice isn't as valuable to him as his family's voice. Regardless of how we get there, that hurts. That's gonna hurt anyone.
Right. Right. And, and you need to be able to say that to yourself. Right. But to be safe and close to Mike, you, you also need validation from him that he can lean into that and see why that sadness is there and see that that sadness makes sense.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: To join you there.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: And so what we're learning here is your whole life that [00:31:00] sadness has been longing for validation.
That's one of the things that's been needing.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: And I want you to share that with him. Not asking for it. We're not gonna do that just yet, but I just want you to share with him that this sadness is really longing for validation. It's one of the things that can really help it.
Rachel: The sadness that I've experienced and shared has needed validation. Oh, that's so uncomfortable in my body Julie.
Julie: Is it? Okay I appreciate you.
Yeah,
Rachel: like a flurry of nervousness.
Julie: Okay. So what we're just figuring out, and let me, let me pause you for one second. I just wanna go in here to you, Mike. I mean, does that.
Make some sense to you that her pain is needing some, her sadness is needing some validation. You might not know how to do that just yet, but can you take in that? [00:32:00]
Mike: Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's, it's, it's sad and heavy for me to, to, to hear, you know, everything that she's saying and just knowing that there's, you know, so much.
Hurt. You know, hurt and just needing that validation. But I think, I think you just said it like, I, I dunno how to do that.
Julie: Okay. So I want you to just, right now, just look at her and say, I don't know how to do that yet, but I'm here to learn and you make so much sense to me.
Mike: Yeah. I don't know how to validate you yet, but I'm absolutely here to learn and figure it out.
So.
What you're saying. Everything you're saying, yeah. I mean it's, and it's true. Everything you're saying does make complete sense. So
Julie: thank you for that, Mike. So I'm gonna go back over here, um, [00:33:00] and stay with you. And I want you to, well, there's a couple things on the table
now. I don't like to ignore tears, so I think I'm gonna talk to that first, and then we're gonna go back to the flurry.
Um, did the flurry get replaced by more sadness when he was able to respond to you?
Rachel: Not more sadness. Just more of like, it's all I've wanted, ever wanted in my entire life is for someone to care.
Julie: Yeah. So this is, I think, part of the grief around the loss. Every single time you were left alone with your feelings, every single time you were told nobody cares about them or you're bad for having them, somehow you picked up those messages, then you, there was a a, a death there.
That was a loss, a loss of what you needed to feel safe in the world. An emotional loss, let's say. [00:34:00] And then on top of that, you had to experience one of the worst physical losses ever, which is losing a spouse.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Partner. Yeah. So let's just sit with the grief because this is part of what it's needing.
Just being with it right now is validating in and of itself.
Let me when you're ready to go on, because I don't wanna interrupt this experience for you.
Rachel: It's interesting to sit with it. I feel all this stuff going on inside my body because it's like there's a heaviness but there's a relief and then there's like a racist feeling probably because it's all new.[00:35:00]
Julie: Alright, let, let's do this then. Let, you just said it beautifully that you're in it and. You're processing it and the heaviness is dissipating, but then this racing feeling comes in so fast. Is that the flurry that you described a minute ago?
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And where does that sit in your body? That flurry?
Rachel: It's just like a flutter in my chest, like right through the middle of my body.
Julie: All right, let's, um, let's give that a name. Can we call, I'm going to assume that's fear. There's a fear that comes in.
Rachel: Okay.
Julie: That you tell me though. I
Rachel: It seems like a lot of stuff is fear, but I have different bodily sensations around it. I guess I, I wouldn't have known to look to that as sign of fear, but maybe it's fear of.
New and different.
Julie: Yeah. [00:36:00] That's what my assumption would be. Maybe we could call it anxiety. Um, at the end of the day, the, you know, the feelings are, there's a, there's a short list of feelings, fear, sad grief. Yeah, shame. It's usually what our bodies are trying to. Um, escape. So if that fear is, if it is fear, let's just say it is, um, what might it be?
Trying to, what is it afraid of? What is the fear fearing?
Rachel: I don't know.
Julie: Well, you don't have to know. That's what we're here to do. So let's just kind of hang here.
Is there anything that might be a little scary about going into these places that you're not used to staying with for a while?
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: [00:37:00] Yeah, so maybe that's one of the things the fear is fearing is just feeling all of this, understandably. So now we need to understand what's, what's scary, what might happen.
Why is that fear coming in and saying, no, no, no, no, no, not safe. Rachel: It's never been safe before.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
So if something's unsafe, that means we anticipate something bad happening, right? So what's this bad thing that might happen that we're calling unsafe?
There's a few different things that might happen, so let's just try to put words to them.
Rachel: I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is just that they would be dismissed. Okay.
Julie: And how are you gonna feel if [00:38:00] you are dismissed? Rachel: Like it wasn't worth. Exploring and sharing.
Julie: Right, because what is dismissed, like for you? What happens to you in moments where you shouldn't feel the way you do? Or just ignored what? What is that like for you emotionally?
Rachel: It's painful rejection. Mm-hmm.
Julie: So I just want you to imagine a moment in life where you have felt rejected and see what comes up. Can you describe a moment to me in this relationship or in your childhood or anywhere where you just felt rejected?
Rachel: I mean, there's different, plenty of different. Scenarios. It's, you know, from, as I mentioned with the childhood situation of being teased and [00:39:00] nobody coming to support me or anything that was a rejection in marriage.
Julie: What were you teased about?
Rachel: I honestly don't, I honestly don't know why I was the target.
Um, but it was just being teased about. Or a made up boyfriend or just being honest about it.
Julie: And what were the messages that you received around that? That teasing, Rachel: you're not worth anybody's attention.
Julie: Yeah,
there's a lot of rejection in that. That is rejection. You are not worth attention. You're not worth being treated with care. Your feelings don't matter. I mean, that's heartbreaking. Yeah. I can only imagine what it would feel like [00:40:00] for you to imagine one of your kids feeling like that.
Rachel: That's why when my family intended to do it to my kids. I shut it down because I knew how painful it was.
Julie: Right.
Right. You, that's part of your resilience is that you knew to protect your kids from that.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: Because nobody was there to protect you.
Rachel: Right.
Julie: And you had to just learn to protect yourself from hurt. So your body just doesn't trust going to the hurt.
Okay, so Julie, here again, we just hit the core wound. When, when Rachel talks about being teased as a child with no adult stepping in to help her, she's describing profound emotional abandonment.
In order to survive that, she had to build massive walls. So today when Mike goes into his avoidance shell. Rachel's brain doesn't just see a distracted [00:41:00] husband. Her nervous system is transported straight back to being that helpless, unprotected little girl. No wonder she wants to run away. That level of vulnerability feels incredibly dangerous to a nervous system that is only ever known rejection.
Your body just trusts trying to, you know, ruminate and try to figure out how to escape more of it.
Rachel: Absolutely.
Julie: And so it makes sense to me that as you go in here and sit with it, your nervous system comes in and says, no, this isn't safe. This isn't safe.
Yeah. Because if I go here, not only am I going to have to sit in this awful stuff, but then on top of that, I'm going to feel rejected for it and dismissed in this place. And that's going to hurt even worse. My body knows that place too.
Yeah. What is that fear needing to not [00:42:00] have to come in and try to protect you from pain? What do you think that fear needs to know?
Rachel: I don't know. I feel stuck right now.
Julie: Okay. All right. Let's, let's back away then.
Rachel: Like stuck in that, like, my mind's not even quick enough to respond.
Julie: Okay, so let's just move out then. We, we won't go any further with this. I don't wanna overwhelm your nervous system. This is all very new. Your
body is telling us right now, Hey, let's back off.
Rachel: That makes sense because it feels like I just wanna backpedal, which I know we need to not do that so that we can go into it.
Julie: Well, we need to do it with, in a titrated way. So we need to, to go in and come out. To go in and come out. Um, [00:43:00] if you have a really bad experience here where you're getting just flooded and overwhelmed, your body will not let you go back into it.
So we need to do this really safely.
Rachel: Okay.
Julie: They, you have to be uncomfortable to grow, but you know, there's um, a way to do that incrementally.
Rachel: Okay.
Julie: Yeah.
So if we just kind of zoom out, right, and maybe just talk about this from the looking down on it instead of going into it like, what are you learning about your patterns here? If it feels safe for you to put words to that. If we go into that,
let's go into the intellectual part of ourselves right now where, where there is more safety from this stuff.
Rachel: I mean, it's just, it's wild to see how long ago the strategies [00:44:00] were implemented.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: And how they just built throughout the years. On changing life circumstance and growth aging. It's the same strategy from so long ago. Just to deal with new players and new situations. Yes.
Julie: And if we put a word to that strategy, what would that word be? Rachel: Protection.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Right? Just different ways of protecting. One, one of the ways is, um, don't go there. Another way is, is just try to distract from it, which is not go there. Another way is try to make sense of the problem and try to make sense
of the pain so we can find a solution. And if, if it feels safe, would you be willing to just let Mike in on some of this, just from that intellectual place in your brain, just, Hey, I'm really starting to [00:45:00] see this pattern here that my whole life I've been trying to not go to these really awful, painful places.
'cause it has not felt safe.
Rachel: Yeah. Unfortunately, what we see in our relationship was developed a long time ago.
As a way to keep myself safe, feeling some pretty bad pain.
Mike: Yeah, it makes, it makes complete sense.
Julie: Does anything happen for you to hear him say, that makes sense to me? You make sense to me. Does anything happen in your body?
Rachel: Yeah, it feels good that I know he wants to be able to support.
Julie: Yeah. So what I wanna know is did your body [00:46:00] experience that as support so we get a little more clear about what feels like support to you? And if your body did experience it that as support, what was the. What did your nervous system do? Did it calm?
Was there a release of tension? Anything?
Rachel: It's kind of a tricky spot because I think I mentioned before that in so many discussions early on, he would say that to me. Okay. And so right now I don't know the difference of whether he's just saying it to my nervous system, doesn't know the difference of him.
You know, a year ago saying that to me. It was just a way to smooth things over versus now where he's really trying to learn and grow and be supportive. Like it's the same words. So I hate, but my nervous system doesn't know how to trust it yet.
Julie: Sure.
Rachel: As new [00:47:00] behavior.
Julie: Okay. So I think that that, you said it beautifully, so.
There is, correct me if I'm wrong, but was there any part of your body that was able to take it in before the mistrust comes on board?
Rachel: Yeah, and it's a, it's a lightening. Um,
Julie: okay.
Rachel: I guess just it, I feel lighter.
Julie: Okay. That's great because we know what this place needs. Right. This place that talks about pain, talks about your inner experience in this situation?
It was, yeah. My whole life I've had to learn these strategies and I'm really seeing. You know, making these connections right now. And so he comes in and says, yes, you make sense to me. I get that your nervous system does take it in. That's good 'cause we can build on that. But then understandably, this other fear comes in on top of it and says, but I don't know if I can trust it.
It feels so good. Like I, I've said before, it's like food insecurity. [00:48:00] It's not that the food doesn't taste good, right? When you're insecure about food. It tastes good, which is why you get so scared there might not be more of it.
Rachel: Right? Yeah. That's accurate.
Julie: Yeah. So of course your, your body, if you, if you didn't care, if you were indifferent to it, it, there would be no fear.
So that just tells me, you, you need more of this and you're open to more of this. And you're still invested here.
Rachel: Definitely.
Julie: Yeah. And so. You know, if we just kind of sit with this mistrust that comes in, um, that shows up in your body as what, how do you know when the mistrust comes in?
Rachel: I just noticed that in my chest.
Julie: I, I wonder if, if there's anything that this mistrust might need to help it. Because does a part of you come [00:49:00] in and And shame the mistrust?
Rachel: Yeah, for sure.
Julie: And then does a part of you come in and worry that the mistrust might push him away?
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Or him to stop trying? Okay.
Rachel: Yes.
Julie: Okay. What I would like for you to say to him, maybe if, if you think this would help is, um, can you be patient with my mistrust right now?
Can you accept my mistrust right now as we go through this together? Do you think that would be helpful for you to know?
Rachel: It would, but that instantly makes me anxious.
Julie: Okay. So, so then we need to do some work about around you. You accepting your own mistrust.
Rachel: Yeah.
Julie: So we need to talk about why there's a lot of wisdom in your mistrust. Rachel: Okay.[00:50:00]
Julie: Does that sound like a foreign concept?
Rachel: No.
Julie: Alright, let's go ahead and take our break and I'll think about the best direction for us here and, um, we'll come back.
Rachel: Okay.
Julie: Okay. I'll see you guys in a minute. Alright, we're gonna press pause right there for today. You know, this was a heavy, it was a beautiful, it was a really courageous piece of work that Rachel just did.
By slowing everything down in that room, we were able to look past the frustration of this current communication going on with her and Mike, and we were able to get to the root of the disconnect, which is a lifetime of being left alone with sadness. For so long, Rachel has carried this crushing belief that her pain makes her a burden.
Her ultimate survival strategy was to find a solution, distract herself, or just disappear [00:51:00] emotionally. But today we honored that little girl who had to endure rejection all by herself, and we started to rewrite the narrative that her pain is just too much. So we're teaching her nervous system that it's finally safe to feel her feelings and put words to them.
But this time, as Rachel breaks down those walls and exposes her deepest wounds, there's another person in the room experiencing this profound shift. So next week, all eyes will turn to Mike. What happens to the avoidant partner when they watch the person they love unpack this kind of lifelong agony?
Alright, so I want you to think about how you manage your own overwhelming feelings. When you feel deeply sad or rejected, do you try to intellectualize it? Do you just obsessively try to solve the problem to make the pain go away? Or do you just busy yourself with tasks to numb out completely? Notice your own
escape route this week, so the next time you feel the [00:52:00] urge to run, just ask yourself what would it look like to just simply sit with the feeling for one extra minute instead of trying to outrun it?
So we'd love to hear what you discover. Send us a voice note or an email to support at the secure relationship com, and your story might be featured in a future episode. So I'll see you next week. Thank you to Rachel and Mike for your vulnerability and for your bravery, and for helping us all see this work come to life by sharing your journey with us.
And until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.
If you feel sensitive in relationships, scan for signs of disconnection, or spiral into protest and panic when you don’t feel close, this course is your starting point for healing. In this self-paced course, Julie Menanno guides you through the deeper emotional work required to stop self-abandoning and start showing up for your own needs, so connection can feel safe again. You’ll learn how anxious attachment develops, how it shows up in adult relationships, and how to build secure self-support,
