Session 9: The Knock-Down, Drag-Out Fight for Co-Regulation
What happens when a couple survives a major crisis, only to be thrown back into their negative cycle by a simple text message? This week, after Bethany recounts a traumatic car accident and Brian's initial, supportive response, a seemingly small conflict about a baby monitor spirals into a "knock-down, drag-out" fight.
We dive deep into the difficult work of co-regulation when both partners are hurting. We explore the raw hurt behind Brian's sarcasm—his pain of feeling controlled, questioned as a parent, and like a "second-class citizen." We also uncover why Bethany's instinct to explain and rationalize, a lifelong strategy to manage overwhelming emotions, lands as a dismissal and keeps them stuck.
This extended session highlights the essential, messy process of learning to attend to one partner's pain at a time, even when you're drowning in your own. Can you put your hurt aside, just for a moment, to truly see the person across from you? It's hard, but necessary work if healing is the goal.
This week's prompt: Reflect on your last conflict. When you felt hurt, what was your go-to protective move (sarcasm, explaining, silence)? What feeling were you trying to communicate underneath that defense?
Send your responses to this prompt or any questions/comments you have about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecurerelationship.com.
Your submission might be featured on a future episode.
Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.
For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast
Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course
Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime
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Session 8: Why Do We Lie?
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a couples therapist and author of the book Secure Love, and today we're diving headfirst into the following questions. Why do we choose to be dishonest? Why do we lie, especially to the people that we love. So in today's episodes we're, we're gonna dive right into those questions and this conversation will build on last week's session where we listened to Brian and Bethany talk about their attachment wounds.
Julie: These are not the everyday ruptures, which are bad too, if they're, you know, if they're chronic and unrepaired. And on top of that, they're very likely to turn into behaviors that cause attachment wounds. But attachment wounds are major betrayals, major breaches of trust that you know, for Brian, this was Bethany's Financial infidelity.
Julie: And for Bethany it was Brian just not showing up emotionally at all when their daughter was born in the months after that. So Bethany's Financial infidelity has really left Brian questioning [00:01:00] everything. Even though she's admitted to lying, he can't help but wonder, you know, what else might she be hiding?
Julie: That's what lying does it. It breeds mistrust. So there is truth to the fact that some of Brian's trust issues do stem from childhood, a lot of them. But in this relationship, he also has very real reasons to feel uneasy. He fears being taken advantage of. And after months of dishonesty, you know, even small things like remember her behavior earlier in the season around the wifi password.
Julie: You know, these things feel much more suspicious. And just for context about where we are in this process of therapy, you know, we have more safety built up. They were able to talk about the wounds without breaking into a big
fight last week in a way that helped them better see each other. Of course, I was there to facilitate this largely non escalated conversation, but one of the ideas of this work is that eventually they can show up for each other similarly to how I show up for them.
Julie: So as trust [00:02:00] builds fear decreases nervous systems open up and we can get to the deeper work. And it's a two steps forward, one step back process, exactly how this work is at home. You know, the work you do when you're consistent, it builds trust. Fears and protections go down with trust.
Nervous systems open up and deeper bonding becomes more possible, which builds more trust and on and on it goes.
Julie: And it's very much a two steps forward, one step back process. Alright, so back to the question, why do people lie? Well, people lie either to protect themselves from, you know, some sort of, um, emotional pain or to get unmet emotional needs met. People lie because they want to feel respected or not empty or secure, or to get a sense of power to offset feelings of powerlessness.
Julie: People even lie because they're motivated by empathy and there's always an emotional motivation to lying. And it's really useful to know this because when you can better understand what [00:03:00] emotions you're trying to meet or avoid, it becomes easier to find healthier ways to accomplish these things that you're hoping for in a way that doesn't leave you having to face the consequences of lying, which.
Julie: We'll find you at some point. So today we're going to hear more about Bethany, the real Bethany, underneath the lies. What was Bethany needing? Who is she really? Is she just a callous, selfish liar? Not at all. Dishonesty doesn't come out of nowhere. And while we're not here to excuse it, understanding it is essential if we want to heal from it and stop doing it.
Julie: So we're going to get to the heart of that today. And at the end of the episode, I'll leave you with some reflection questions so you can take this further in your own life. Alright, and speaking of you, the listener, it's time to hear a few of your submissions and you all had a lot to say from last week's episode.
Julie: So we're going to start with Chris, who has some timely comments on Bethany and her role in the negative cycle.
Listener Comment #1: Hi Chris here. Um, after listening to this, uh, episode seven, [00:04:00] I came to a realization, I think the first few episodes Bethany really presented as. A very emotionally hardworking and innocent sort of participant in this relationship, and really trying with bewilderment to be good enough and to, um, be recognized for what she's doing.
Listener Comment #1: And in episode seven, I think the table's turned for me a little bit. I, and for the first half, as she was describing what Brian did with, with the birth of their child, I could see, I mean, it, it looked really bad for him and I couldn't imagine how he could have just ignored their, their baby and, and really disregarded her needs, um, as well as Bethany's.
Listener Comment #1: And, and then when I heard him describe the experiences that he'd had up until that point, I understood more why he's suspicious of her and doesn't trust her and has, you know, [00:05:00] really, really deep wounds. I get the sense more and more that she's actually. Much better at presenting herself as innocent and all of the things she's trying to do.
Listener Comment #1: She's a very good marketer of herself selling her her story. And to me it's, it's starting to feel very manipulative based on what actually happened in their early relationship. And I feel like she's, um, maybe this is my stuff coming into it, but it feels like she's duped him in some really deep ways that are traumatizing or would be for, for him.
Listener Comment #1: So I don't think he's, uh, like I, clearly some of his stuff is, you know, is, is big and some of the things he does don't make a lot of sense to me either. Um, and they're pretty, pretty big. But I'm also starting to see the other side. So, um, I guess I have a little bit more compassion for him now.
Julie: Okay. So first of all, thank you so much, Chris for, for calling in.
Julie: Um. I really appreciate that and a [00:06:00] great point that you're bringing up. And you know, this kind of really circles back to this idea that it's really hard to take sides in a couple's therapy because if you do take sides, you're gonna find yourself flip flopping back and forth. Um, because you start to see that, you know, these behaviors and these thoughts and these feelings in the context of the relationship, they're not isolated, they're not random.
Julie: I mean, they're really feeding off of each other. And yes, Bethany came to the relationship with some stuff, you know, and, and that is getting acted out. And then of course, Brian, you know, he's reacting to that and, and like with a lot of. Anxious attachment situations that he can kind of start looking like he's crazy.
Julie: Right. But he's not crazy. I mean, the way he's responding to what Bethany's doing to trigger him is not effective. And I gotta help him, you know, do new things with that. But no, he's not, he's not crazy. He's been walking around the relationship, like you said, feeling [00:07:00] duped. And, uh, on the flip side of that, you know.
Julie: We can't lean too heavily into will. Bethany is the problem here because then we'll start to see more of her and we'll start to empathize more with her. Um, so we really have to, you know, maintain this idea that they both brought stuff to the relationship and they both have created this negative cycle between
them because they have not known how to deal with their own feelings and help their own feelings and then be vulnerable and use healthy assertion with each other.
Julie: You know, if there is a situation which is so rare where a couple comes to me and I can really say, Hey, you are way more at fault for this relationship, then I, you know, it's gonna be hard for me to even treat that couple. And sure, some people come, you know, to relationships with more baggage, but, um, when, when we're talking about these negative cycles, you know, they are both.
Julie: Contributing some, like I said last time, some behaviors are objectively worse than others, but they're all behaviors that are, are crying for [00:08:00] help in some way. And the, you know, the cure is always the same, which is let's get you dealing with your own emotions in a healthier way so you can communicate in a healthier way and so you can help each other in a healthier way.
Julie: Alright, now let's go to Kim, who also has some pretty relevant questions here on where we stand in the therapeutic process with Bethany and Brian.
Listener Comment #2: Hi Julie. I just finished season two, episode seven and I'm really struggling to find possibility in this relationship. There's so much betrayal and mistrust.
Listener Comment #2: How do you even recover? Not only has Brian expressed betrayal and pain before he said I do. He's having incredible regrets about getting married, and Bethany is experiencing so much betrayal and loneliness from his lack of attention over time. They have a difficult time hearing each other and holding empathy for each other.
Listener Comment #2: And Brian in particular sounds apathetic about the desire to really try. It feels like the betrayal is just [00:09:00] so embedded in the dance they do and the codependency they have with each other. How do you break a code like that when it's just such a major part of the relationship? DNA, what do you do if the foundation of your relationship is built from mistrust and negative cycles?
Listener Comment #2: And if you don't know any other way, how do you navigate? And how do you as a therapist, hold onto hope that there will reach common ground and that a transformation will occur. Thanks for your thoughts.
Julie: Okay, Kim, great questions. Um, thank you for, for commenting that in. I know a lot of people are thinking the same things.
Julie: Um, there's a lot of layers to my, my answer here. So, just to start, I mean, Bethany and Brian are objectively more distressed than, you know, last season with Melissa and Drew. Um, they both came to the relationship with some more stuff and they both, you know, obviously they have these huge wounds between them.
Julie: Um, combined [00:10:00] with the lack of communication skills and the lack of connection with self that they would need to, a, not all, not. Kind of do those behaviors that cause the wounds to begin with, and B, heal and communicate through those wounds. So I'm giving them what they need to do that I'm giving them a new relationship with self so they can show up more vulnerably and with healthy assertion.
Julie: And I'm giving the ability to lean into each other and you know that that is the work and that's how you work through attachment wounds. I mean, attachment wounds can be healed even when they're big, even when they're huge. Um, we can use them as opportunities to. You know, really understand why we got to this place to begin with.
Julie: Use them as opportunities to really see and hear each other and really lean into how each of them were impacted and create enormous empathy that wasn't there before around these wounds. Um, and we can certainly use them to prevent all the behavior going forward that, you know, created the wounds to [00:11:00] begin with.
Julie: I, I chose them. I chose Bethany and Brian. You know, I had many couples reach out to me. I interviewed many couples and, um, for this season it felt really important to me to pick a couple that was highly. Distressed as highly distressed as I possibly could find. Um, because, you know, because I want you guys, the listeners to see the possibility.
Julie: Because if I take a couple that's really highly distressed and I let you see what's possible with them, and maybe your relationship isn't that distressed, you can see how look, if they can do it, we can do it. And, and also some of you out there are that distressed, right? And so that felt important to me.
Julie: Um, I know it's been really anxiety provoking for a lot of people because they are so distressed and they're bringing so much to the table, and that's the nature of. You know, they're your ref, your body, the anxiety that you're feeling
around them is a reflection of what they're experiencing. And so then how do we unlock all of this?
Julie: How do we heal? Well, [00:12:00] you're gonna see that. You're gonna see as these sessions play out, you're gonna see Exactly. You know, that's why I'm here doing this to show you all what is possible. You're gonna see some shifts taking place pretty soon here. I don't remember exactly where. Um, but within the next few sessions, you're going to see the, the shift start to take place.
Julie: Um, and you know, even with that shift, and they're gonna. The growth that they experience. You know, there, there're a couple that needs ongoing sessions after we end with them, which I think is like maybe 23 sessions is what we end up with. Um, you, you know, they're, they're the type of couple for this really, really to becomes a sustainable shift and, and help them when they have their two steps back or their one step back.
Julie: Um, we need, you know, they're gonna need help navigating through that. So this is a couple who typically would need, at the very least 40 sessions and, um, probably more like 60 sessions. And, um, you know, I'm gonna do my initial work with them and then [00:13:00] we'll talk in the intro here, um, with them as you, you'll hear me have a conversation with them.
Julie: About, um, what we do after, you know, after this kind of ending point with me. So anyway, though, just, just stay tuned because you know, you are going to really, really see what healing looks like as we go forward. Alright, well thank you to both Chris and Kim for your voice notes and listeners just continue to keep them coming.
Julie: And without further ado, let's hop into session eight with Bethany. And Brian, do you think that the fact that this is kind of, you know, at least theoretically limited to 20 sessions, do you think that's interfering with your ability to feel hopeful or safe, um, here because, you know, if, if that's the case, maybe we can, you know, I'm, I'm always, my number one goal is, is you guys, and of course that's, you know, within reason I can't commit [00:14:00] to, I can't over commit myself, but, um.
Julie: If, if it does help you settle in to think, okay, we can keep going past 20 if we need to. Like if I have, let's say we get to session, you know, 15, 16, 17, and I'm like, Hey, there's so much hope here. Things are really progressing, but we need more space after the 20, then I would, I would keep going. Now if we get to that stage and I'm like, okay, it really doesn't seem like things are shifting, then that would be more of an argument to stick with the plan.
Brian: Yeah. Um, I, I think that, um, we'll, we'll trust the process through the 20. Um, I was very surprised. I listened to the q and a the other day from Drew and Melissa.
Bethany: Me too. I listened to it last night.
Brian: And, uh, I was very surprised that you extended yourself to, you know, past the q and a and, and you know, you, in your eyes you felt like they had graduated.
Brian: Uh, your, your program and I was just very surprised, like, you [00:15:00] know, all, all of this is just. Like a blessing to, to be able to do this with you. So, um, I, I think you said something too, like you, you'll continue to reach out like, you know, not every week or every month, but like, just to make sure that everything is going well and I can't project myself into, you know, what date that will be when we, when we wrap this up, but
Julie: Sure.
Brian: I, I think, um, you know, knowing that we have that in our back pocket if need be, and we're not quite there at 20, that's a really good feeling for you to, you know, extend yourself to us.
Bethany: I, I appreciate that too. Um, because I, in my head it's like a, a safety net, right? Because sometimes I think like, okay, at the end of 20, like, you know, he drafted the other day, he wanted to draft up, um, plans for what, uh, you know, a divorce settlement would look like in addition to like.
Bethany: What our, you know, if we were to salvage our marriage, what that would look like. So [00:16:00] like I have, we have what a custody agreement would be like, what a settlement would look like. Like, and that's just like scary to me. Yeah. Um, we haven't done the marriage part yet, but it's, it's nice to know that safety net.
Bethany: And I even made a, I even made a joke last night that I said, your tagline for season three is gonna be Can't win 'em all, so go join us for season three.
Julie: Right.
Julie: Oh my gosh. That's funny. Alright, well, yeah, I mean, if, if, yeah, I just wanna, I'm new to this too, right? This is only the second time I've ever done
this and I, I don't know that I've ever started with a couple and said, Hey, we're only gonna do this number of sessions.
Julie: Um, and so I don't, you know, I wanna just, if that's creating anxiety that blocks the work, then I wanna clear that out.
Bethany: I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I. Blocking the work? I think it's, I mean, I think for me there's anxiety with that, but I don't think it's blocking the work. Okay. Like, I'm in it for, I mean, I'm personally in it for the [00:17:00] work, but for me, that deadline of 20, like, like it's a make or break, you know, that's kind of how I feel like he's communicated that to me.
Julie: Okay. Right, right. I see.
Julie: Okay. Yeah. So, and then, and then in that case, you know, it would be anxiety provoking and that would probably impact the therapy maybe in ways that you don't even recognize. And, you know, just to, just to Brian, just kind of honor where you're coming from. I, I also do recognize not wanting to do this indefinitely.
Julie: Like we're in pain. Right. We do want some kind of closure at some point.
Brian: Yeah. And it's, and it's, we're also embarking on the one year anniversary of this stuff. So like, I, I just would like to have, uh, like a direction of where I'm going. Like, you know. Where to spend money, what you know, what transactions to do, what's, what's my life look like?
Brian: I can't keep going on in just this gray space, you know?
Bethany: I agree. And it's frustrating to me. I called it like [00:18:00] marriage purgatory, because
Julie: Absolutely.
Bethany: Yeah. We aren't living together. We're separat,
Brian: we're still married.
Bethany: We're still married. We're sort of separated, but we're doing, doing marriage counseling, and I think that's hard too, is to like live in, live in this purgatory.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: All right. Well, I'll know more as we proceed. You know, I'll be able to make a better call about, Hey guys, I, I really don't think this is gonna work. And, or, Hey, we're, we're, we are seeing some progress and we're seeing enough progress that I have some hope that if we keep going forward, you can count on more growth.
Bethany: Okay
Brian: okay.
Julie: And, and so let me just ask you this, how, how was, whoa, we'd met yesterday, didn't we?
Bethany: Two days ago.
Julie: How, how was, how were the last
Julie: two days?
Bethany: He didn't really talk that much. Um, Monday, we sprinted outta here so fast. Like we were, you know, we were just so late. So it, like, we didn't even say goodbye to each other.
Bethany: Like, he ran one way, I ran the other, [00:19:00] um, we did text, like I checked in with him later and texted and said, are just checking in on you. Are you okay? And he said, I was gonna call you later, just wanted you to get settled in. So he actually thanked me for reaching out to you. And I hadn't told him that yet.
Bethany: I wasn't, I was going to tell him after, like, if we would've finished on time, I was gonna explain to him why I emailed you the other day, but we rushed out of here so quickly. So it wasn't an intention. It, it wasn't me withholding intentionally. Right. I was gonna tell him, I just want you to know that, like on the trust part.
Bethany: Um, and so he thanked me for that because I think that's like we're finally maybe getting to the root of where all this is stemming from. Um, and we texted back and forth a lot. Think a lot. I don't know. I feel like Monday night was a blur, but I was like, my house was crazy. My nephews were there. You know, our little, our little one was there.
Bethany: It was just hectic. So I, I don't think we talked too much, but then yesterday was just another busy day and, and he had the baby [00:20:00] himself with his older daughter. So we haven't talked a lot.
Julie: All right. Well, it does, you know, I, I am feeling a little more lightness in the air than maybe the last couple times we've met.
Julie: So I don't know, you know, how much that's related to the work, but just an observation on my end. Um, so just kind of jumping in then. What, what are your thoughts? You know, I wanna kind of get your thoughts. Ideas about what I said about, Hey, you know, this really hinges on how much we can heal those wounds and build back the trust.
Julie: Get the trust back. And you know, there are situations where we don't get the trust back, right? Where the wounds have been so big that our nervous systems like just can't relax and to trust again. And, um, you know, obviously that's worst case scenario, but, um, I just wanna get your idea. Like, Brian, do you feel like that you, there is hope that it, there is something [00:21:00] that could happen here that could help you get past these things?
Brian: Yeah, I, I, I think there is, there is hope that we can get past them. Um, just not, you know, nothing comes to mind. Um, I, I've, I've thought about this for probably seven years, you know, on and off as these times come, you know, come up. But it's, I guess it's sort of still the fear of. Even if I can get past these things, am I, am I always gonna peg her as untruthful?
Brian: And there's just a lot of things that, you know, that she says that I just end up sort of investigating in my own head. And I just don't, I just don't trust her that you know, that that's the truth.
Julie: Okay. All right. So let me, let me explore that a little bit. You know, of course she has a role in that. I mean, there has been [00:22:00] dishonesty and that that really has happened.
Julie: Um, or maybe just withholding information, maybe it's that word dishonest isn't, isn't exactly right for both of you, but there has been withholding information and, but, but is there, is there another piece of it that might be that you have a hard time trusting in general? Like if you were with a different partner, some of that would be there.
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, we dig through these, these issues and you've, you've dug pretty deep and I've been forthcoming with, you know,
what my childhood is like, and you know, I, I, I do have some trust issues stemming from that. So, you know, I, I, I feel like I show up to the game wearing those, those badges, but it's just, it's not that I'm looking for negativity in her, it's just once it's [00:23:00] come about, it's just like, I, I get guarded about it and I, I, I just don't want to be taken advantage of.
Brian: And, you know, some, some of those lies, it was just, they've gone on for so long. Like when we talk about like. The second credit card, and I said this to her in the past, like, it's not just, I found out about the credit card, like it had a balance for, is it 12 months? Is it seven months? So like, if it's seven months, then it's like eight lies to me because you didn't tell me all seven months.
Brian: And then I had to find out like sort of behind your back, I guess. Then it's like, then that's presents it all and it's like, you've been withholding this for me for this long. And then you second guess like, what else are you withholding for me?
Brian: And you know, I think that [00:24:00] that's the, the foundation of a marriage is trust. I don't think she's, um, had any infidelity or anything like that. It's just.
Brian: If she's capable of just little white lies, what else is she capable of?
Julie: Right. And so when you found out this information, what happened to you? What was that like for you? The moment that you found out that this has been going on for eight months?
Brian: Just extremely let down.
Brian: Like, I'm not, I'm not perfect, but I feel like, um, most of these things up to that point, like, I just wouldn't do that to her because I felt a certain way towards her. Um, I wouldn't be deceitful, you know, [00:25:00] I, I try to be as transparent as possible with her. Um. And I just, I just wouldn't treat her like she has treated me in those circumstances.
Julie: All right. So when you find out that this happened and it's a blow, right? You feel dropped, you feel let down, you feel abandoned.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: We've
Julie: talked about those words, right? It's a major blow. And then you're saying to yourself, look, I wouldn't, I wouldn't try to, I wouldn't hurt her. I wouldn't put her through this.
Brian: No.
Julie: So then
Julie: on top of that, it feels there's another abandonment 'cause it feels unfair. Like she just doesn't care or she just is, you know, callous to you.
Brian: Yeah. Like when I bring these things up to her, I have this, this blank, I'm looking at this blank look where she has no [00:26:00] explanation, um, no feelings of empathy.
Brian: There's no groveling, there's no like,
Julie: okay, so then that's where I was gonna go with it next, is that when you, you're, you're trying to get some help for these feelings, right? You're trying to get some help, you're trying to get some empathy, you're trying to get some reassurance that, hey, you're not gonna keep finding yourself back in this place over and over.
Julie: That instead of this is the part where you want that, those messages, but instead you're getting just, you don't even know what, just blank. Nothing.
Brian: Yeah. It almost appears to me like it, it's just like, I'm gonna keep doing this to you and
Julie: Okay, so the messages, when the messages aren't empathic and aren't understanding, then you're, you're gonna kind of fill in the blanks and say, look, that's just what I'm hearing is I'm just gonna keep doing it over and over if I'm not sorry, I'm not gonna change.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Then that takes you to a worse place. And then that does [00:27:00] understandably put your nervous system in mistrust. You know, what the hurt feels like, you know, from, from this relationship and your childhood before that, you know, what it feels like to be dropped. It's a terrible place to go. So you're trying to reach her, you're trying to get help.
Julie: The help isn't there?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Then you have more reasons to mistrust. So I kind of wanna switch over here and understand a little bit more about what was happening for her over here. Do you mind?
Brian: No, I, I would appreciate it.
Julie: All right. So I think where I wanna start with you, Bethany, is first of all, you know, you, you've owned this, right?
Julie: You've owned that. Yes. I was dishonest about money. And so I guess I wanna know more about why you were needing to be dishonest. Like where, how did this happen that you got to that place?
Bethany: Yeah. I, I mean, I'm, I'm ashamed of it, so I, I wanna. Say that.
Julie: Um, [00:28:00] and let me just, let me just normalize this. You know, people do things it, I'm not saying I want you to keep doing it.
Julie: Obviously it's harming has harmed your relationship, right? Sure. I know people behave in ways that they're vulnerable too when we're, whatever bad feelings we're trying to manage by doing it, so
Bethany: Right.
Julie: Okay. Go forward.
Bethany: So
Bethany: in the instance that he is talking about, um,
Bethany: we were, and I I I will be honest, I don't know like what, uh, we were paying down my debt, right? So like at the end of, I don't, he works.
Julie: Well, let's go back to the
Julie: original like thing that you guys weren't communicating about how much to spend on the wedding, right? And there's no,
Bethany: oh yeah. Okay.
Julie: There's really no right or wrong here, right?
Julie: Some people, it is important for them to celebrate that day and to go into debt responsibly to do that. That's not wrong. It's also not wrong to not wanna do that. Right. [00:29:00] What's wrong is not being on the same page.
Bethany: Right. Right.
Bethany: I, well, I mean, I think every little girl, or every girl or woman dreams of, you know, a, a big wedding.
Bethany: . And I believe we had talked about what a smaller wedding would look like, but I have way more family than he does. So I feel like, I think we, I think this is how it went. I don't know. I, it was nine years, seven years ago, eight years ago, I think. What,
Brian: there's barely seven
Bethany: No. Like planning the wedding.
Bethany: So, yeah. Before that, so eight years ago, so.
Julie: I just wanna jump
Julie: in here really, really quick and just notice this, and we're not gonna go down . This road, but just notice that not every girl plans a big wedding. You planned a big, you dreamt of a big, a big wedding.
Bethany: Right. And we, we, I had dreamt of a big wedding.
Bethany: Yes, yes. And we had talked about what it would look like to have a small wedding. And so my [00:30:00] immediate family is very big in terms of like first cousins and aunts and uncles and whatever. He doesn't have many, I mean, he would have, like, if we stuck to just immediate family, it would've been like 20 for me and eight for him.
Bethany: Right. So like the, there's a major imbalance there. And then so how do you like break it down between friends and family and whatever and what does that look like? And I don't know if I don't, I, I truly don't remember how it came to be, where it was like, let's have a big wedding. But I know that his
brother prompted the idea of us having a band and his brother offered to pay for the band.
Bethany: So that is where I think at that point we made the decision to just, we can't have like a band from Nashville come for 35 people. Um, am I wrong in any of that? Like if we were to have a small wedding, but like his brother was the one who teed up this band. So that's, I think kind of where it like, may have gotten lot bigger.
Julie: So [00:31:00] what would been,
Julie: what, what is it about having the band from Nashville for only 35 people that would've been a problem for you?
Bethany: I don't think it would've been
Julie: no
Julie: judgment. I'm just curious.
Bethany: No, no, no. I don't even think it would've been a problem. I don't, I, am I piecing this together the right way? Like your brother teed that up?
Julie: However we, however we have to get there. Yeah. There wasn't, there was some dishonesty, there was some withholding of information. I am really trying to understand why it felt better for you to withhold the information than to be clear about it. Something. It wasn't random. You're, you're giving me, Hey, on one hand, you know, there would've been this imbalance of numbers.
Julie: On the other hand, we had this band, like, what does all that mean to you? How did that lead to not, not being honest,
Bethany: maybe I just wanted the appearance that we could, we could handle it or I could handle [00:32:00] it.
Julie: Okay.
Julie: Appearance by who? Who did you want?
Bethany: Like, like from For, for him. For him.
Julie: Okay. Okay. You wanted him to see you as being able to handle it all.
Bethany: We, I mean, he said, you know, we're not going to go into debt over this wedding, and I agreed to that and we were getting X amount of dollars from my parents.
Bethany: You, or we said we would contribute X amount of dollars together and then. I don't think your, your mom gave us anything, so I don't know. We would have to cover the rest. And that was, that was an argument, right? Like to not have a big wedding because he didn't have any family to contribute to the wedding.
Bethany: So it was my parents and then us collectively. Mm-hmm. Um, things were, were coming due and I, you know, out of my straight wages or pay didn't have the, the full amounts to pay. Mm-hmm. Um, to pay for it. And so, you know, we agreed we weren't gonna go into debt over it. And so I had the, the [00:33:00] proceeds from selling my house and
Bethany: paid for portion.
Julie: What would would've happened if you, if you would've said to him, Hey, look, I'm gonna use the money from selling the house to, to fund this. What would've happened? Or what do you think about doing that? What do you think, uh, I'm sorry. If you would've said, what are your thoughts on using this? What do you think would've happened?
Bethany: Um, he probably would've said no. . Um,
Julie: and then
Julie: what would've just slow down with me here. Yeah. Um, what, what would've been so bad about him saying, no,
Bethany: I probably wouldn't have gotten what I wanted.
Julie: Okay. And again, what you wanted was a bigger celebration, Bethany: right
Julie: of this day. You wanted the balance. You wanted to have a balance of people there that felt important.
Julie: Um, right. You wanted your loved [00:34:00] ones and friends to celebrate with you. You wanted this band to work out. There's nothing wrong with any of that, right? Those are all worthy, um, aspirations and, and desires for a big day. Um, but I wanna know. What it would've been like for you to not get those things, for those things to not have been,
Bethany: it would not have been devastating.
Bethany: It would not have been devastating.
Julie: Okay.
Bethany: We would've
Bethany: had to pivot.
Julie: Okay. So it wouldn't have been devastating. So, we'll, we'll cross that word off the list, but if we just talked to this part, that would've been disappointed.
Bethany: Right
Julie: what would've been disappointing?
Bethany: Um, probably my, my, probably my vision of
Bethany: what I wanted that day [00:35:00] to look like.
Julie: Okay. So you had a vision and, and that vision meant something to you and, right. Like, my sister had a really big wedding.
Bethany: Um.
Bethany: My family's weddings, um, have always been very big, very fun. Like every, I mean, I only have one sibling, but like cousins and whatever. And so like my family's weddings are, are just, they kind of go down in history as a lot of fun and everybody loves the weddings. Um, and so I, I wanted the same experience and I couldn't wait for everybody to come and celebrate us, but to have that experience with all of those people.
Julie: Okay. So it was, it was just, it was not just about you two, it was also about this extended family right thing. Okay. Yeah. And there's two girls, two of you girls.
Bethany: Why are you laughing? [00:36:00] Why
Bethany: are you laughing?
Brian: Um, it just got so ridiculous to the point where you were gonna invite a waitress at a restaurant that we, we, okay,
Julie: so
Bethany: I don't remember that but
Julie: All right, so Brian, I know that this, you know, there's, you have some things to say about this too, but if we just stick to the theme here. Yeah. There is something important. Even the waitress was, something about the waitress was important.
Bethany: I
Bethany: don't remember her, but, okay.
Julie: Okay. Something, if there was a waitress, some even, something about that was important.
Julie: My job is to understand what's important about that it meant something to you. There's a lot of meaning here. You, you wanted your, your friends and your family to have this experience for you. It's not just about the two of you. It's also about the bigger picture, the greater, the greater group experience for that day.
Bethany: Yes. Yeah.
Julie: And I know that the core of it is us. Maybe other days you celebrate holidays with your family. I mean, it's, this is a thing people do, [00:37:00] right? There's nothing wrong with this. What's wrong is I, I'm still trying to
understand. You know, you know, as much as you wanted those things, Brian had different ideas about how he wanted to do it.
Julie: And so something gets missed here that we're not communicating about each other's needs. And you're saying, I feel like it would've just been a hard no.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I'm gonna just kind of keep trying to organize here and go slowly with it. It would've been very disappointing. You're saying I wouldn't have been devastated.
Julie: That's too big. But I would've been really disappointed. And I'm guessing disappointed is like, like a let down, missing out on something important to you. Um, not missing out on a connection, a connected experience that is very important in your family.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. All right. So let's hold, hold there. You know, this is where the sadness [00:38:00] comes in.
Julie: What, what's sad right now just hearing me say.
Bethany: Yeah. And I guess I've never really talked about it and I can't. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It's not even just, I don't even know why I'm crying.
Julie: Well, let, let's try to slow down and figure out why you're crying, because this crying and this feeling is part of what contributed to that behavior.
Julie: This isn't the place you talk about very often. You're used to just giving him the facts and saying, here's the numbers and here's why it made sense. I wanna talk more about the crying.
Bethany: Um, I think in some ways he just doesn't get it, like in terms of like the whole family thing because he doesn't have a big family.
Julie: Um, how could he get it? If you don't, how could he get it? If you don't talk about this part?
Bethany: You're right. You're right.
Julie: Yeah. So let's talk about it. Listen, instead of talking about him not getting it, let's figure out what he's, what you're wanting him to get. So you can share that [00:39:00] with him.
Bethany: Um, I think it's, it's the, and I've thought about this too, like in over the past, I don't know, year or more, like I, I don't think that he puts the value into family the way that I do.
Bethany: And maybe he does for immediate family, I don't know. But extended family, like outside of our own unit.
Julie: Notice how, just notice here. Yeah. How when you start talking about him Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And what he's doing or not doing, you move out of your own sadness, you abandon your own feelings around this. You, you, your body language changes.
Julie: Your voice changes. Right.
Bethany: Okay.
Julie: What would happen if we just kind of stay in getting to know a little bit more about what this meant to you?
Julie: Tell me more about the disappointment, the, the loss, the [00:40:00] family, the what family does mean to you.
Julie: I don't know about that.
Julie: You mentioned being, you know, you've mentioned many times being how close your family was, how close you were to your dad and
Bethany: so it, I think in some ways it, it scares me that we're not on the same page in that, in that area. Um, it's hurtful to me because there are times where. This is, I'm, I'm gonna get there.
Bethany: But like, he has said things that like, you know, my family's invasive, or, you know, everybody has to know everything, or they're always in everybody's business. And that's hurtful to me because they're all I have, like, if I don't have him, they're [00:41:00] all I have. Right. And they've done so much for me that like, I just can't imagine not having them.
Julie: Right. These relationships are so, so, so very important to you. You did grow up with a lot of closeness and that matters to you, and there's a sense of safety there. Right. And what your heart really wanted was to make this event celebratory for all of you and Right. That felt really important to you..
Bethany: And I, and I didn't, I, I didn't wanna look like I. Was failing and not being able to afford or provide a wedding. .
Julie: Right. So there's an, there's another layer on, on top of that. You, you, you know, want your family to view you and a, a light of being successful. You've taken a lot of pride and being a successful person, and that feels important to you.
Bethany: Right. Right.
Julie: And what, what is it, what would it be [00:42:00] like for, to think of them seeing you as failing and seeing you as not being able to afford this?
Bethany: I don't even
Bethany: think it, it was about them. It was about him. My family would've been fine, probably either way. They wouldn't have
Julie: Oh, you
Julie: were worried that he would see you as failing and not being able to afford it?
Bethany: Yes.
Julie: Okay. Okay.
Bethany: And honestly, if, if I had said that to my family, they probably would've said, well, we'll just, we'll just cover it, you know, or we'll figure out a way to make it work, because that's what. My family does .
Julie: what, what's so bad? What would, in your mind at the time, what would have been so bad about him seeing you as not being able to afford it?
Julie: What was that about?
Bethany: Um, I think so he has always put me on this pedestal that I'm absolutely [00:43:00] perfect. And he has said that to me. That's how he has, that's how he proposed to me, how he explained how he picked the diamond ring for me. So he had me on this pedestal and was completely honest by saying I'm not up on that pedestal anymore because of.
Bethany: You know, the, the things that I have done. And so that's a hard pill to swallow, and that hurts. That's disappointment, that's failure, that's shame.
Julie: Okay, Julie, here.
Julie: So let's just pause on this moment because this is really important. You know, for the entire session when, or actually for most of our season, um, when confronted Bethany's instinct has just been to rationalize and present a li a list of facts to defend her position.
Julie: And this is a classic protective move for an avoidant partner. Logic feels safer than emotion, but what we're hearing right now is, is the truth, the emotional truth that was hiding behind all these facts, which was [00:44:00] a deep seated fear of disappointing Brian and the shame of not being perfect in his eyes.
Julie: And of course, the. These fears conflicted with her own fears around not having the wedding that she was dreaming of. And I, I want you to think about a time when you weren't fully honest. What was the feeling that you were trying to avoid there? Was it fear of a partner's anger? Uh, or, you know, the shame of making a mistake, the pain of potential rejection, or maybe the pain of not getting an experience of something that you longed for, like the family togetherness or a family event that Bethany was needing.
Julie: Like I've said, understanding that underlying fear is the first step toward choosing a different path next time. That's not dishonesty because dishonesty, it just doesn't work.
Bethany: And so to say that to him or to tell him, I think it would've [00:45:00] been like, you know, knocking me down another peg or. He just has his mind made up, right?
Bethany: Like, that's just how he functions. And so I feel like no matter what I say, I, I, I, I can't
Bethany: get through to him to see any other perspective. And I know that that's another conversation, but I think that that's, there would've been no way for me to explain it to him, to get him to understand. It would've been, this is, this is how it's gonna be.
Julie: Right. We're getting ahead
Julie: of ourselves. We've got too much on the table here, so we're gonna just stick with this one piece of it.
Julie: Okay. It's just this one piece is, is you had this need, right? You had a, a very legitimate need and want to have a bigger wedding. It meant something to you. It wasn't just about the two of you, it was about the bigger experience for your family, honoring your family. I don't know, celebrating, we only get one, you know, one chance usually.
Bethany: Usually,
Julie: you know? Yeah. I mean, [00:46:00] yeah. Limited number, limited chances to have that kind of a celebration.
Bethany: Limited chances to have a first wedding.
Bethany: We'll only get one chance to have a first wedding.
Julie: There you go. You get one chance to have a first wedding. And of course, you are going into this like, this is it, right?
Julie: Nobody goes into it going, well, this is one of many, right? Okay. And so you're going into this, it does matter to you. It means something to you. And you somehow, you, your belief was, look, if I bring this to him, I'm not gonna be heard. It's just gonna get like a hard No. He's just, he, he doesn't value that.
Julie: He sees the value in being more responsible with money, uh, because that's what matters to him. I mean, not wholly. 'cause you did wanna have the celebration too, Brian. I get that. But, but he's not really able to see the value for me of making it a bigger celebration. And what, and has that been a [00:47:00] pattern too, where you, you don't really know that he is able to step into your world and value some of the things you value?
Bethany: A hundred percent.
Julie: Okay. So that's really the real issue here, right? And, and sometimes you can go along with it, but there are some things in your life that are, that are, it's not you, you can't go along with it. Something you know about it. A lot of family things like the baby and, and then this, this wedding was one of those things.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: So all this matters to you. You don't wanna face the loss of this opportunity. You know, there's a lot of meaning for here. For you. There would've been for. There already is pain around it, but there would've been pain for you around the loss of this opportunity to bring your family together.
Julie: And then on top of that, if you would've brought it to him, then you don't, not only would the hard [00:48:00] no have, you know, interfered with what you were, what your heart was wanting around this, but also the hard no would take
you to that place where, I don't know if he see if he's able to see the value in some of the things.
Julie: I see the value in here.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And so that's when it just made more sense for you to just kind of what, withhold the information and just hope it worked out, not say anything.
Bethany: Yeah. I, I guess, I guess I, I never thought about what it would look like after in terms of. Where did the money go? Maybe I thought I was gonna pay it back. Maybe I, I didn't, I don't know. Maybe he would've thought, okay, it was, it was spent, but we didn't go into debt, so that was a good thing. Or I understand.
Bethany: I don't, there could have been a million different scenarios and it could have a thousand percent blown up. Way worse than, than it did, you know?[00:49:00]
Julie: Okay. So, so somehow though this, this was a conscious choice, either to withhold it or It was,
Bethany: I think too, in, in my mind, and it probably wasn't the right thought process, and it, it's gonna come off sounding selfish, but like, it wasn't, it wasn't like a, it was, it, it was, it was my money. Okay. He renovated that space for me prior to me selling, and I offered to pay him for that, for, for his work, for materials.
Bethany: I think I did pay for materials. I don't know the labor of, of his workers. And he didn't, he didn't take it. But I offered to pay.
Julie: And so see
Julie: how, see how fast you go into kind of like, right, I know all these details and so I wanna move away from that and I wanna stick to something. [00:50:00] 'cause again, we circle back to all of these good reasons why it, it wasn't like you said, Hey, this is, this is my money, this is what I wanna do with it.
Julie: That would've been different, right? All this were true if all these facts were still true, but you said, Hey, but somehow this isn't getting communicated clearly.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And, and I wanna, you know, what I'm digging around here for really to be honest with you, is I'm digging around for, there was this element of not.
Julie: Presenting this information directly because I was afraid. I was afraid of what would happen. Yeah. On one hand I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to celebrate this day in the way that felt right for me. And on the other hand, I was afraid of being faced with the fact that maybe you don't care so much about how important that was to me.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And, and that's [00:51:00] when you, part of you, it sounds like some of you just tried to kind of push it away from your awareness and not think about what the outcome would be. But is there a part of you that kind of knew, maybe this is something I should say?
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And I want you to just s see, say that out loud and, and to yourself and just see what comes up when you say, yeah, there was this part of me that was dishonest.
Bethany: There was a part of me that was dishonest. Yeah.
Julie: What is it like to just say that to yourself? That you were scared? Bethany: Yeah, and I'm embarrassed.
Julie: I know. We'll talk about that later, but right now I'm just trying to understand the link between this dishonesty and like what's, there's some good reasons here. I don't want you to have to [00:52:00] keep, you know, repeating this, but there's some good reasons and we need to resolve the fact that, you know, you didn't feel that he was gonna be able to meet you in value no matter how you worked it out.
Julie: You didn't feel like he was gonna be able to kind of see the value in what that matters to you. So we need to work that out one, and we also need to work out why you needed to handle that in a way that then just kind of harmed the relationship.
Julie: So I want you to just turn to him and say, I was struggling with a lot of, um, with a, with some unmet needs and some fears, and I was, I did handle that with some dishonesty.
Bethany: I was struggling with unmet needs and fears that I handled it with dishonesty.
Julie: So is that new for you to kind of move away from [00:53:00] trying to convince him with facts and make all these rational arguments and just to be clear more about what was happening for you emotionally?
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And how does that feel to be more clear?
Bethany: Um, it
Bethany: feels good. It's scary too.
Julie: That's why it's brave. Right?
Bethany: Right.
Julie: So let me, let me check in over here. Brian, how's this hitting your heart?
Brian: This is good work. Um, there's things that I'm taking from it that, uh, are helpful. Uh, I probably, the biggest part that I appreciate the most is you bringing her back to the root instead [00:54:00] of dancing away to something else, because that has been another big issue is that she can't confront things.
Brian: She sort of muddies the waters with other stuff that in the heat of the moment, you can't really follow what you're even talking about after a while. And
Julie: okay. I wanna, I wanna hear all about that. It's so important, right? I'm gonna bookmark that. We're gonna come back to it, but I wanna know just kind of right here and right now as a new experience, right?
Julie: When you guys have tried to talk about this, that's what you've gotten as the mud water's getting muddied and you know, the details and Yeah. All trying to convince you. But now you're getting something a little new. And granted, I did help her get there, but what does it do to you to get it, to get her experience delivered to you in a real, more vulnerable, direct [00:55:00] way?
Brian: It's good. It's good.
Julie: How do you know It's good?
Brian: Like, I feel, I feel like we're getting back to seeing like eye to eye, like, you know, on a, on a level playing field instead of, you know, just harboring this uncertainty all the time. Okay. Second guessing. Um,
Julie: so it feels like there's some value in this and you know, just kind of tapping into your body.
Julie: Does that help you feel a little more relaxed around this topic as opposed to feeling unheard and going into that place where you just, you know, feel like the fight?
Brian: I do feel a little bit more relaxed.
Julie: Okay. Julie, here. So why does Brian feel more relaxed here? Because he isn't being met with a defensive wall of facts.
Julie: He's being met with Bethany's vulnerable heart. [00:56:00] This is the essence of healing a negative cycle. When we communicate from a place of just protest and defense, all we do is activate our partner's nervous system into a state of fight or flight. But then when we lead with our soft, vulnerable truth like fear and sadness or shame, it does have a profoundly calming effect because it presents the very connection everyone has been trying to find.
Julie: It invites empathy. Brian's body is literally relaxing because her vulnerability is signaling to him that he is safe. So think about a difficult conversation that you had with your partner. Can you feel the difference in your own body when a partner comes to you with an accusation versus when they come to you with vulnerability?
Julie: That physical sensation of tension or relaxation is your nervous system telling you whether or not it feels safe to connect. Now [00:57:00] again, I'm a couple's therapist. It's not always so straightforward. Sometimes the other partner isn't able to hold even the most perfectly delivered vulnerability, and I've gotta work on that side too.
Julie: But we can't have it to work with if we're not doing it to begin with. Brian: But I feel like we're not at the finish line.
Julie: Okay. We're not, we are definitely not at the finish line. I'm looking for a little progress here around the topic.
Brian: Yeah. There's progress. I'm not, I'm just saying finish line of this subject. Julie: There's more to process. There's more to say.
Brian: Yeah. I could feel like it's, it's on the tip of her tongue that she wants to say some more stuff to uncover it. It's just. She needs to feel comfortable in that space to let it out.
Julie: Okay. All right. So, you know, just to kind of summarize this, what happens here is [00:58:00] that you guys are used to talking about this in a way that just takes you right into that negative cycle where Bethany, you're not really feeling seen for what matters to you.
Julie: And part of that is not, you know, able, you haven't really been able to share that and not really trusting it would be taken in anyway. I'm, I'm guessing is why you didn't bring this up in the first place. And then, you know, you have all these needs and emotions around this that are very important, but again, you don't really feel like you can reach him.
Julie: And so your way of dealing with that was not this healthy way, but it was to be dishonest. And we're understanding more about why that was your move there. But still it impacts Brian. And so then when you're trying to kind of
explain this to him, you, you just, your mind just goes up into logic and reason and get him to see why the numbers worked out.
Julie: But then Brian, you feel invalidated. That's not working for you because there's all this emotional stuff for you that's being missed. [00:59:00] You, you were having unmet needs and emotions and pain around this too.
Brian: Yes.
Julie: And so then when you're, you go to that place, then you, you show up reactively or tell her how, you know, ridiculous she's being or whatever, and then you guys are going back and forth.
Julie: And so we did it differently this time. We got down into more vulnerability. We got a little more ownership on the table. We got a little more clear communication and that did help us not to go to the most escalated place. Okay. And so. I wanna, I wanna talk more, Brian, about with you next time about kind of your, your experience over here.
Julie: Um, I have a, a couple of, you know, questions in my mind that I'd like to explore, but I wanna start with meeting you where you are because you said, you know, yeah, this has been a real problem for me with this muddying the waters kind of, kind of [01:00:00] stuff. And I wanna, I wanna know more about like, are you able, you know, we know you see the value in your need to be good with money and there's something commendable to be said for that.
Julie: But I also wanna explore if you're able to see the value and you know, her need to have these family connections. And we'll talk more about that. It's just something to think about for next time.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. All right. Um, we'll go ahead and stop there. Alright, so wrapping up today's episode. This one was a big step forward, especially for Bethany.
Julie: You know, you heard her avoidant attachment style show up in full force trying to rationalize her decisions, but, you know, struggling to really sit with why she chose to be dishonest in the first place. And listen, the lie was bad, but Bethany, you know, she's someone who values family and connection and bonding and [01:01:00] beauty, and all of this is a reflection of her good soul.
Julie: These values that are so important to her, so very important to her were under threat. And she didn't know how to reach vulnerably to Brian or advocate for those needs with healthy assertion. And even if she had, he probably wouldn't have been open to understanding and validating where she was coming from anyway, because his own fears would've taken center stage and blocked her need to not just get her way.
Julie: It's not really about getting her way, it's about being seen and, and then they can't even do the first part of making a big decision together, which is making space to just really see each other. And the consequence of that is negative cycles and the consequence of that. The negative cycles is a disruption of emotional safety and closeness, and the consequence of that is not being able to resolve problems.
Julie: So today was really about moving Bethany out of the facts and the details of the [01:02:00] story, and moving away from the way she intellectually makes sense of the situation because she's been swimming in that place for years. Nobody's confused about all the intellectual arguments that Bethany has around this.
Julie: So notice how I just kept circling her back to the part of the story which has never been told. The part that needs a voice more than any other part if for no other reason than Bethany doesn't deserve to be alone with that part. So when you hear me jumping in and redirecting her, you know, it wasn't me trying to be rude and just interrupt.
Julie: It was me needing to get us out of the context and into the therapy so she could truly sit with and understand the emotions behind her actions, not just the logic. So, big picture Bethany hasn't been needing to hear Brian say, oh, well I see why you spent the money. I agree big weddings are important.
Julie: Thank you for apologizing. I forgive you. Big picture. You know, maybe there's truth to some of that. But big picture, she needed to be known by him. [01:03:00] She needs to know that he can lean in and understand her feelings and that he values the meaning of her values. She needs to know that he can meet her there and not just say, no, you're wrong.
Julie: When they don't see eye to eye, that first he'll just see her. That's what healing is, and there is no hope for Bethany to be seen by Brian if Bethany can't first be seen by Bethany. And for those who are wondering, I just wanna address this. I, I do think there's truth to the fact that those with avoidant attachment are more likely to be dishonest as a way to try to get their needs met.
Julie: But everyone has work around strategies to get their needs met when they can't get them met directly. And your attachment style doesn't always define that, but it is more common to see avoidant partners being dishonest. And it's also more common to see anxious partners use more like emotional warfare as their workaround, like kind of like breaking their partner down to the point [01:04:00] that agreeing is just better than dealing with the heat.
Julie: What I found is that we can, when we can open up the lines of communication and start getting emotional needs met in the relationship, we dramatically increase the odds that those symptoms begin to just decrease on their own. So let's talk about you when you feel like you and your partner aren't on the same page.
Julie: You know when you desire something deeply and you're afraid that they won't understand or agree, and you're put in a position to tell the truth and risk conflict or be dishonest and try to get what you want. Another way, and I want
to invite you to reflect on both sides of this equation. If you've ever been dishonest with a partner, why?
Julie: What was going on underneath the surface? Was it a fear of rejection? A sense of unmet needs? A belief they wouldn't understand you? Was it attempting to protect something, even if the approach backfired? I. What about those of you who have been on the receiving end of [01:05:00] dishonesty, and many of you have been on both ends, how did you respond?
Julie: Were you able to give grace or understand their perspective or did it create a deep rupture? As always, we'd love to hear your reflection, so please do send us a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and we might just end up featuring your story in a future episode. And also, if you haven't already done so, please hop onto Apple and give us a review there.
Julie: That would be great. All right, well as always, thank you for listening. Take care of yourselves and take care of your relationships.
