Session 8: Why Do We Lie?
Why do we lie to the people we love? This week, we dive into that question by exploring the roots of Bethany’s financial dishonesty—a betrayal that has broken Brian’s trust and left him questioning everything.
This session moves beyond blame to understand the fears and unmet needs that often drive dishonest behavior. It’s a powerful look at why healing mistrust is an essential first step before a couple can begin to repair their negative cycle, reminding us that while we can't excuse the behavior, understanding its origin is essential for healing.
This week’s prompt: Reflect on a time you've experienced dishonesty. If you were the one being dishonest, what fear or unmet need was driving your actions? If you were on the receiving end, what did that moment teach you about trust, healing, and boundaries?
Send your responses to this prompt or any questions/comments about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecurerelationship.com. Your submission might be featured in a future episode.
Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.
For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast
Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course
Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime
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Session 6: Can a Relationship Ever Really Be 50-50?
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno, licensed marriage and family therapist and author of Secure Love. So I want you to raise your hand or just not along if you're driving, if you've ever gotten caught up in the 50 50 debate in your relationship. The idea that everything from chores to finances to emotional effort should just be split right down the middle.
Julie: It's a nice idea. But today we're going to explore the messy emotional reality that lives underneath that debate. We see this dynamic play out with Bethany and Brian today. Brian feels that he's carrying an unequal share of the load, working long hours at his business, then coming home to hang the Christmas lights or cut the grass, and he wants Bethany to share the burden to understand the weight he carries.
Julie: But some of [00:01:00] his requests are things Bethany physically can't do. Like, you know, lifting a 40 pound tub of Christmas decorations. But as we'll soon discover this really isn't about the chores for Brian. It's a desperate cry to be seen and valued for his contributions. When he feels unappreciated, his hurt comes out as anger and protest, what he calls going off the rails.
Julie: And at the start of our session, I let them go, you know, just for a moment so we can all witness how quickly they spiral into that cycle of explaining, defending, and ultimately disconnecting. What follows, however, is a powerful shift. We move from the logistics of doing to the vulnerability of feeling.
Julie: This episode is about what happens when the person we love can't meet our demands until we finally soften and show them our pain. This feeling of being unseen is, is something many of you have shared with us and that brings [00:02:00] us to our listener segment for this week. Listeners, you've been sending us so many amazing emails and voice note messages and it just warms my heart to know that this work is really resonating with you all.
Julie: So thank you so much for that. To those of you who are taking the time to do that. Alright, well let's start with Karen. Hi Julie. You really hit the nail on the head when you talked about a. Pain off that sometimes occurs between partners to determine who's in the most pain or whose more pain is more deserving of attention at that moment in time.
Julie: And that brought up the following comments and questions for me. What about when the second partner consistently is responding to the first partner's vulnerability with defensiveness and a raised tone? How are both partners supposed to navigate that? Um, can you also shed some light on when one partner views the second partner's attempt to co-regulate through a negative cycle is just controlling.
Julie: And finally, when I tell my partner that his tone is defensive and [00:03:00] hurtful, I get responded with something like, well, that sounds like it's your problem since that is how you. And I don't think I sounded defensive. So this sounds off base to me, um, considering everything I've learned listening to your podcast and reading your book.
Julie: So thoughts on that? Alright, well, Karen, um, long answer, uh, I'll go ahead and dive in here. So if you're doing everything you can, being vulnerable, trying to co-regulate, and you're still met with defensiveness and reactivity, that's a really, really tough place to be because it's hard to take risks and do new things at all.
Julie: And then to be dropped in that, you know, it's just, it's devastating. It's angering, it's, it's just awful. So what that means, well, first of all, let me say this, for a relationship to successfully do vulnerability, um, both partners, you know, have to work on their role. And it's not a just, it's not just how about how a partner delivers that information, it's [00:04:00] also about how the.
Julie: Receiving partner is receiving that information, and we have to work on both sides of that equation because we can't expect someone to just indefinitely be vulnerable if they're not having any success with that. So in these sessions, you know, I have the privilege of having Bethany and Brian here to work with, so I can work on both sides of that equation to help them uncover their blocks to good deliveries.
Julie: And good receptions. And as they do all these rounds, they're gonna start doing it more and more at home. But you don't have that luxury. And I'm, I wish I could just give that to everyone out there. But since, and not everybody can do therapy. We need other options to make. That work. And you know, the options really depend on what's blocking your partner, what happens inside of your partner when you get vulnerable and you try to do healthy new things, that's, that's so bad for him that he has to push it away.
Julie: Um, [00:05:00] this is happening subconsciously. I mean, people get these triggers even by our, our partner's healthiest moves so fast that, you know, it happens in their body so fast, they don't even have time to think about it. You know, some options. Does he get scared that if he holds you there, then his needs will just vanish?
Julie: Or does he not know what to do with your vulnerability and he just doesn't wanna feel like a failure? So he just, it's easier to just push it away. Um, so since. You know, I don't know exactly what it is and you probably don't know exactly what it is and they probably don't know exactly what it is, that this is the time to get curious, like maybe outside of the moment and just say, Hey, you know, I'm trying these new things so we can feel better, but I see something about that isn't, doesn't work for you.
Julie: You know, just open up that conversation. See if you can get him to, or them, I don't know if it's a him. To just explore that a little bit more and understand more about what's going on [00:06:00] inside. Um, and then if you are able to get to that place of understanding, then you wanna validate that, right? Instead of saying, okay, well, you know, you need to change that, you know, we wanna lead with, all right, it makes sense.
Julie: You know, of course if you think that you, you know, leaning into me is just going to make your needs vanish, um, it, it only makes sense that you would push it away. Um, but then of course you're gonna have to add, you know, either right then or later, you're gonna have to add, you know, at the same time, if I can't get in with new things, then I'm just going to feel rejected, and that's not gonna work either.
Julie: Another thing is, like I said last week, is to put some structure into place about who is in the giving and receiving role at. Any given moment, you know, maybe let your partner go first and just lean in to what they have to say. Give them an experience of being fully heard, fully understood, validated for their experience.
Julie: And then the idea is, is that they're able to get [00:07:00] regulated from that space and be more open to hearing you and doing the same for you. You know, these blocks are really, really hard, um, in some relationships and sometimes it does take professional help to work through it all. I always say just. Keep doing your side of things.
Julie: Um, keep showing up in the healthiest way that you can. Um, and if, if at some point, you know, your vulnerability just isn't being held, no matter what you do, and it's just too painful to keep getting dropped and you know, you might need to move away from that and instead just focus on healthy assertion
without necessarily getting so vulnerable, you know, you can still be healthy without exposing yourself to hurt over and over.
Julie: And of course, the cost of this is closeness and you can say that to your partner, you know, I'm doing my best over here. I'm sharing my deepest self, but if I can't get through, it's really going to get in my way of feeling safe and close. I am putting [00:08:00] together some self-help. Info on this, um, for my online and social media resources to help people have, you know, some options and try out some things and kind of explain what might be going on when they're doing their best and their partner isn't able to respond to that.
Julie: Um, so I'll let everybody know when and where they can find that. So thank you again, Karen, for your questions and comments. Best of luck to you and your relationship. I hope this helped out just a little bit. And now we're going to hear from a return listener. Heidi is back with another comment. So. Here's what Heidi says.
Julie: She says, okay, wow. I'm fired up about this episode. I listened to season one, read your book, and now all in on season two. I definitely understand the anxious and avoidant attachments and what behaviors we see. I'm so confused about this episode. Previously, we got to see Brian's anxious response to not having his need met, feeling like a second class citizen not being considered.
Julie: And last week was a deep dive [00:09:00] into his feelings and fears. Why in this week's episode, are we diving into Bethany's response to his response? Why wasn't the episode about diving into why she doesn't meet his needs? Consider his feelings, respond to him in a way that makes him feel seen, heard, and understood.
Julie: Why didn't we look into why she is avoidant and stay silent and just waits it out for him to come back around and seek connection? Um. And then she kind of goes in to say, well, of course that's hurtful for him. You know, what all, what about all his other attempts to communicate his needs? Um, I feel like the avoidant partner is the roadblock.
Julie: These are the ones that drive the bus, in my opinion. Um, that's not true, but I, you know, I that get that a lot. I won't go into detail about why that's not true. Um, but I will go ahead and answer your question. Um, so why, why are we doing [00:10:00] that, right? Why did I dive into Bethany's response to his response instead of confronting her own role in the cycle that contributed CRI contributes to his behavior?
Julie: Um, so the answer is about timing. You know, at this stage in the therapy, which is about a quarter of the way in, actually I think I ended up doing. Maybe 23 sessions with him. So it's, we're not even a quarter of the way in. Um, as we go, we're really going to see the work, take hold in bigger shifts, around sessions 10 to 13.
Julie: But for now, I'm just slowly helping them hear each other, do new things, create safety. You know, I tell couples, look, you guys are used to going so fast with all this, bringing a thousand topics to the table at once, talking over each other, going on tangents. And we don't do that here because the slower we go in here, the faster your relationship will improve.
Julie: We only have one hour each session, and I gotta. I have to pick a focus and go with that. And if you go too [00:11:00] fast too soon with a couple, they're not going to be able to tolerate it and things will go off the rails. Um, so a lot of this work I'm doing, even though it doesn't necessarily look like I'm staying kinda linear, um, it isn't just about content information.
Julie: I'm actually installing new ways of reaching and responding and new ways of communicating into their nervous system so they're better able to take accountability for their roles, and I need to get them just communicating in a healthy way. Um, and so if you push too hard, you know, for too much too soon, their nervous systems are just gonna double down on what they've been doing that hasn't been working.
Julie: Um, that aside, that's kind of the broad idea of this work. But let me answer your question more directly. Why did I choose last week to explore the impact of Brian's threats on Bethany? That was strategic. So. The relationship cannot be safe. If every time Brian gets triggered, he just threatens to leave.
Julie: So [00:12:00] I targeted that behavior, but I didn't finish the work last week to make it more likely that I'm going to get this shift. I need to do a few things. I need to, one, understand why he's doing this to begin with, what feelings are underlying this anger and fear that he's trying to manage that he's not talking about.
Julie: So that's the first part of the conversation. And then I need for him to understand the impact of this behavior on himself, on the relationship on Bethany and. Then I need for Bethany to be able to say how this impacts her on a vulnerable level because I want to activate Brian's empathy system. Empathy creates change more than anything else, but I can't get Bethany to share vulnerably about how she's impacted without her understanding her own vulnerability around the topic.
Julie: And so that's what last week was about, getting Bethany to share more deeply and getting Brian to see more deeply. Um, you know, the [00:13:00] change that you, Heidi, are wanting to see in Bethany actually just happened. She showed up for him. She showed her real self. She leaned away from protest and anger and towards softness and connection, which is what Brian's wanting.
Julie: And if I didn't complete that process, and instead just jumped right into exploring Bethany's behavior that contributes to his threats, which we will get to, don't worry. Um, and her, you know, if I just. Left all that and explored her role in the problem. You know, there could have been some success in that work, but I would've missed the opportunity to have them, you know, understand more about the heart impact of this behavior.
Julie: And I would've left that work complete. Uh, I'm sorry. Incomplete. And it's funny because, you know, half of the people write in and say, I'm not being fair to Bethany. And the other half of the people write in and say, I'm not being fair to Brian. So, um, don't worry everyone, we'll get, we're not gonna get to every detail, but we are going [00:14:00] to get to every pattern.
Julie: Um. And you know, the result last week of getting Brian to more fully understand his need to threaten, to leave and share more, be, you know, with Bethany about that and hear how Bethany is impacted and have this connecting experience in the process of talking about it, um, that is going to contribute to him doing a lot less of it at home, which makes the whole system healthier and makes change for both of them more likely.
Julie: All right. Thank you for your question, Heidi. I appreciate you tuning in again and sending another email. And lastly, we're going to Allie. She says, I certainly appreciate you guiding b, Brian and Bethany to understand and vulnerably express their emotional pain and help them land in an empathic, softer place.
Julie: However, there is a part of me that thinks Brian is giving his power away by continuing to believe and say my needs don't matter to her. Same for Bethany saying he makes me feel as if [00:15:00] I'm failing and constantly getting wrong. Will your coaching guide them to recognize they have the power to turn inwards and do the inner work?
Julie: Um, you know, for example, Brian's external experiences, my needs don't matter to her, but if he investigated where he's proving it by not letting his own needs matter to himself and take his power back and focus on making his own needs matter to himself, then it would shift the dynamic a bit and not place all the pressure on Pa Bethany to show Brian his needs matter to her.
Julie: Um, does that make sense? Yes, it does make sense. I did that. You know, I, I always do that work. I did it last, um, season with Drew. I, I remember very specifically that was a very, um, dramatic shift for Melissa when we did that work. Um, and that, you know. W we get deeper into the self work as we go. Right now we're really in the first stage of the therapy where our focus is more on understanding and stabilizing the negative cycle.
Julie: And then in later in [00:16:00] stage two, again, we're gonna go into this, um. Deeper work. You know, Melissa, last season, if you wanna hear some of that, learned how to speak to herself in a way that reversed some of her negative self beliefs and gave herself some self reassurance. We did some childhood work around that, some parts work around that.
Julie: And then when she was able to start better showing up for herself, which she was doing outside of session, it did help her feel more grounded. And that, of course, made her triggers less intense, and it wasn't just all Drew's work. Um, so we're doing some self work, even in this first stage. You know, I am helping them learn to dive into self every time I have them sit with feelings and understand and change their reaction to feelings.
Julie: You know, again, this work is so much about sitting in feelings and so it's not just. Cognitive conceptual, here's how you need to show up for yourself. It's installing the work into the nervous system. Um, and it really is all about [00:17:00] timing. You have to just be, you know, really taking this slow. If you leave the stage one work and complete and jump to soon into the stage two work, the stage two work isn't gonna hold because it's gonna continue to get hijacked by negative cycles that they don't understand.
Julie: And we're gonna need to go back to stage and, uh, one anyway. So to avoid that, I, I make sure my stage one is solid before moving on, and even then I sometimes have to go back. So it's not always. So black or white. All right. Well once again, reading and hearing these reflections is a really powerful reminder that we're never alone in this journey towards secure attachment.
Julie: There are so many people out there navigating similar struggles, and I'm just truly grateful that so many of you have chosen to trust me and this podcast by sharing a piece of your story with us. So, with that said, let's go ahead and dive into session six with Bethany and Brian. Alright, well, how are you guys doing?
Bethany: Good. How are you?
Julie: I'm good. [00:18:00] Open up my notes. Um, I kind of have an idea of where I'd like to go today, but how, how was the last couple days for you?
Brian: It was fun.
Bethany: I think it was good.
Julie: Any, um, interaction with each other?
Brian: Yeah, we've been together since Monday.
Julie: Oh, have you?
Bethany: I've been staying here, yeah.
Julie: Okay. And that's different right?
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Um, noticing anything different? I mean, I'm not exactly expecting that at this point, but I'm just curious if something feels different in the air emotionally.
Brian: I would say we, we talked last night a little bit and it wasn't like any animosity or anything like that. It was just seeing where we're at.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: And, um, you know, I thought Monday [00:19:00] was probably like, probably the best session we've had with you since we started.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: Um, it felt like you actually like getting somewhere instead of just, you know, talking through these episodes 'cause
Julie: mm-hmm.
Brian: I feel like with her, it's nothing gets resolved talking to her and then. We dissect such little sample sizes of what goes on.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: And sometimes we talk about it afterwards. Sometimes we just let it go. Okay. And, um, but I, I felt like, at least for me personally, like I felt like it was going in a direction that I would like to get solved.
Bethany: Okay. One of the things we talked about last night when we were just chatting was, you know, we talked, you talked about the blockers and the ways to handle the situations and, and how you can approach it. And, you know, he said historically, I [00:20:00] haven't handled them the way that he wanted to, and he doesn't like my approach to try to resolve things.
Bethany: And I said, well, what, what do you want? What do you, what works best for you? What do you want out of these situations? How would you like me to approach it? And he said he didn't know. So I feel like until he's able to tell me or communicate what I said, I knew. You said, well, yes, the other day you said ownership and stuff, but I'm like, what,
Bethany: what is that?
Julie: So I wanna, both of you have, both of you have something really important to say. Let me just kind of finish with you, Bethany, and then I'll, so you're saying from your perspective, you were kind of trying to be like, Hey, what can I do here to be better for you to get it right? And then maybe it's not as straightforward for you, Brian, but what you hear Bethany is, I, I, he says, I don't know.
Julie: So go on from there.
Bethany: Yeah. So, you know, he had said on Monday, you know, he wants me to take ownership and, and acknowledge my wrongs. And so I feel like in some ways I have done that. Not always, [00:21:00] not consistently, but I have, I have, I, I said last night, I need to know what that looks like for you. Like how can we get over these hurdles or these constant things that keep coming up and have been coming up for eight or 7, 8, 9 years.
Bethany: We're still talking about them, like how can we get over them? Because that's a lot of like what we're hanging onto, and I know the communication cycle and the attachment styles is all very important on how we work through this, but like we need to get over those because I, I really don't wanna spend the rest of my life talking about things that happen nine years ago.
Julie: Okay. Exactly. I don't want that to happen either. That's not workable. So my question is, how are you talking about it? What happens when you start talking about it? Then? My guess is that's when you kind of go into that negative cycle and then of course, you're not gonna be able to get through it if you're in a cycle.
Julie: And so it just gonna keep coming up over and over and not really get healed resolved. Right. Et [00:22:00] cetera.
Bethany: You know, we, we had a conversation the other day about, we were definitely in a negative cycle. This was just through text, but, or maybe it was on the phone, maybe, I think it was through text or on the phone, I'm not sure, but.
Bethany: You know, it it, I'll summarize it by, you know him saying you don't, you don't ever understand what it's like to do at all. You don't ever understand what it's like to work outside for 12 hours, come home and cut the grass or work outside or work for 12 hours and then come home and, you know, hang Christmas lights on the weekend.
Bethany: And I'm like, what would make you understand, or what would make you essentially boil down to, he was like, I'll take all the Christmas lights down, I'll get you a ladder. You put 'em all back up and that's the way it'll prove to me that you'll have an understanding of what it's like to do that work.
Julie: Okay.
Julie: So you start, so you start talking about it and he says, he starts to kind of talk about his burdens. How he doesn't feel seen for his burdens. And then you're over there going, wait a minute, how, [00:23:00] how do I help you feel seen? And then he says, well, the way that I can feel seen, and I'm not sure you mean this, literally, Brian, although maybe you do, but the way I can feel seen is if you do this work, you, you step in my shoes.
Julie: You walk in my shoes, then maybe you'll be able to see, yeah, yeah. But then you're over here, Bethany going, well, that, that really can't happen. So what's that? That's not possible really for, you know, that's kind of a metaphor. So now, now what? Right? So now you're kind of left with nothing, right? There's no real answer there.
Bethany: Right. Like literally, you know, wanted me to lift a 40 pound tub off my head, last over my head last Christmas out of the garage so I could decorate. Like I physically can't do that. Like mow the grass. Like Yeah, I, I can, I've never really have, I didn't have to, growing up, I had, you know, a lawn service where when I had my own house, like, I,
Bethany: I guess I could do it.
Bethany: [00:24:00] That's fine.
Julie: No, no, I know. And even if you could do it in this situation, there's not, that's not really possible for you to entirely step, step into his world like that. Right. Right. So we gotta figure out a new way to do this. Right. We gotta figure out a, a different way that he can actually be heard. And you can be heard because you probably have some wounds of your own
Julie: that you don't talk about. Right. Because he has all these unresolved wounds and you're over here just thinking, well, if I can just deal with his wounds and just put mine to the side, maybe we'll be okay. Right. It wouldn't be nice if we could have space to talk about all of it. Right, right. But you can't talk about all of it.
Julie: 'cause then you guys get stuck in these cycles. Right, right. So I want to understand the cycle. In this cycle we're gonna find the blocks and, um. I'm, let me, let me just sit for a minute. 'cause I want to, there's, there's multiple different things I can do with this. I'm gonna decide what I think is the best thing.
Julie: Um, you know, I think what I'm gonna do is this, I think [00:25:00] I'm gonna have you guys, I'm just gonna sit back for a couple minutes and have you guys try to talk about it and let me see what happens. Try to talk about something like, like Brian, you said, I want you to own some of the things you've done. What, can you gimme an example of one thing that you're feeling like, I need some ownership here.
Julie: For me to feel safe in this relationship? I need to know that that thing was seen.
Brian: I mean, just if we keep on the tasks as far as, you know, what I have to do day to day and then still be expected to take care of the house and take care of, you know, helping with the dishes and the laundry and the kids and it like, it just. You know, in the past I felt like it's just boiled down to like, what do you do?
Brian: Like, is is your only thing to do is to work five or six hours and then pick our daughter up [00:26:00] and then I have to take care of the home with you. I have to pay the bills by myself. I have to take care of the outside by myself. And then I'm expected to join you halfway on your duties. But I don't feel that you'd join me halfway at all.
Bethany: And I, I wanna add real quick that I think a, prior to us having a child, it wasn't like this as much. Would you agree ?
Brian: To some extent
Bethany: yeah. Um, go ahead. Sorry.
Brian: No, I was just looking for an answer. Like, I feel like if it's a 50 50 partnership. If I'm supposed to join your half, then I'm doing 75 and you're doing 25.
Brian: And then on the finance side, I'm doing like 90% and you're doing 10. Like you keep [00:27:00] leaving me in this negative space, like on, on the finances, on the tasks, and emotionally there needs to, we need to bridge the gap here. I mean, I, I just, I feel slighted and taken advantage of and yeah, you may not be able to pick up a ladder or cut the grass or manhandle 40 pounds over your head, but like, do you even appreciate what I bring to the table or to the family?
Brian: 'cause I, I really feel extremely unappreciated on so many levels.
Julie: Okay, go ahead. Bethany respond. I'm, I'm gonna jump in here in a minute. I just, I'm kind of wanting to see how this goes so I can know where to help. Right.
Bethany: I think
Bethany: a lot of this started to, like during maternity leave, um, when he was in a really bad place.
Bethany: But [00:28:00] I, I do appreciate him and where I felt, and he has handled most of the finances I have contributed in, in ways, but certainly not as much as, as he has. Um, but during that time, you know, it's, and I've tried to explain it like it's trying to get your feet wet as a new mom and it's, you know, every three hours you're either, you know, breastfeeding or pumping or washing parts or trying to do a nap.
Bethany: And our baby was a crap napper where it was like 30 minutes at a time. And so I just never felt like I could get anything. Accomplished. Um, and yes, he would go to work, but also when he came home, like I was the one who was solely responsible for taking care of our daughter. Yes, I was her lifeline because I was the one who was feeding her.
Bethany: But I did everything else, bedtime, bathtime, feedings, changings holdings, cryings, you know, nighttime [00:29:00] stuff. Like, so there wasn't, there wasn't any help. It wasn't like he came home from work and was like, you know what? You've been here all day. Let me hold her for 20 minutes while you, you know, take a shower or whatever.
Bethany: Okay. So I didn't get any of that. Okay. And I do appreciate what he does. I pr, I'm sure I didn't say it at the time because I also felt very alone at that time, but up until we separated, I was still the only one who was solely responsible for taking. Physically taking care of our daughter. Okay. Um, you know, and my day, I have flexibility in my day where, yeah, some days I did only maybe work six hours or cut out early, but that cutting out of work early for me was to, wasn't to like come home and binge watch a show.
Bethany: It was like to come home while she was at daycare when I had the [00:30:00] house to myself to be able to empty the dishwasher, run the vacuum, throw in a load of laundry, do some things around here, or even spend 20 minutes on myself, like getting in a quick workout because I knew that when she came home I wasn't gonna have that opportunity to do those things because it was like hands-on for her the whole time.
Julie: So, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna slow you both down here. You both have been, um, I think you both have had some kind of equal time here to kind of explain your, your sides to me here. And so. There's a couple different ways that, you know, a couple's therapists might handle this situation, right? First. Some, some approaches might be, Hey, let's make a chart right, where, you
know, we have our, our responsibilities super organized and delineated, and a way that feels fair to both of us.
Julie: Um, but I wanna do something different. I wanna try to, do you notice what happens in the cycle is, is [00:31:00] you both are just bouncing back and forth with your perspectives and needs. I don't know that anybody's really hearing the other person, and neither of you are really being vulnerable. You're kind of up in that, you know, explaining your position place.
Julie: But we're not really getting down into some of the deeper issues here. So I would like to see if we could maybe move away from going back and forth and really make some space to just really help me understand each of you very deeply and sit with that and sit with each other's. You know, experience for a bit before bouncing back out into your own.
Julie: Can we try that? Mm-hmm. Okay. Julie, jumping in here. So don't get me wrong. In a situation like this where there's a real logistical problem, there's always room for partners to shift their perspective of the problem and see things through the eyes of the other. And there's always room for making a plan going forward.
Julie: Maybe at some point it will be helpful for them to get more clear and [00:32:00] organized about who does what around the house, but before we can ever expect to get there, I'm meeting for them to lead with something new. Vulnerability, getting to the root of the issue before trying to deal with the branches. Now, vulnerability isn't meant to come at the expense of any warranted perspective, shifts or clarity of roles.
Julie: It's meant to lay the foundation so that when couples do go there, if necessary, later they go there feeling in tune with their own emotions and needs, and in tune with each others feeling, seen, heard, understood, safe. And from there they start to meet each other instead of having to just keep digging their heels in to stay safe.
Julie: Okay, so let's start with you Brian. You, you said some really important things. You said, you know, I'm, I feel like this is unfair. I feel taken advantage of. Like, when was the last time this happened that [00:33:00] you, that you got that, that message that you're being taken advantage of?
Brian: I don't know, almost every day for like the last seven years. Julie: Can you gimme an example?
Brian: Um,
Julie: I'd like to know what she says or does that, that that's where you go. I, wow. This is it. Bam. I feel, once again, I'm feeling taken advantage of.
Brian: I mean, probably the most recent, like financially was when we sat down to, you know, AMIC amicably or collaboratively get divorced.
Brian: It was, I, I made a lot of moves, um, financially in the, in the marriage and we had a prenup. And because I made some of the moves that [00:34:00] messed with the marital residence, she felt that she was entitled to everything that I, I worked for on the side. That was part of the prenup that was. Co mingled and, and it was like everything stays intact for her.
Brian: She gets to get out of debt, she gets to take care of the baby and be uninterrupted and unaffected. And I, I have to get blindsided. You know, I, I just felt like it was very unfair and it was, I felt like she didn't contribute for the seven years or most of the seven years. So I lose that. I lose time with my daughter, I lose my family, I lose money.
Brian: I have to pay her. And
Julie: okay, so there's all these downsides, right? There's all these consequences of it not being fair, of being [00:35:00] taken advantage of.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: What happens when you just say those words, I, you know, you get these messages that she just wants to take advantage of you. I'm like, what happens when you just say those words?
Julie: I feel very taken advantage of. Does that, does that create some anger? Brian: Oh, very much so.
Julie: Okay.
Julie: And where does that anger sit in your body?
Brian: Probably at the time, in my stomach, um, in my throat, um, my head would just start racing of
Julie: mm-hmm.
Brian: You know, thinking about the past and it's like, it, it's almost like you were preyed on, you know, like you're just like some. We get [00:36:00] linked in the food chain and you're just, you know, someone's got the, the sights in on you.
Brian: And
Julie: so in that, in those places where you feel preyed on, you feel taken advantage of. Mm-hmm. That's, you know, is that your anger? Is that your body's way of saying, this isn't how I want it to be? I can't do this. I don't, I can't, I, this isn't how I want it to be. Like, what is that anger trying to tell us?
Brian: Yeah. I, I, I don't want that to happen to me personally. If, should we move forward and get divorced? I don't think that it's fair. And I think ultimately I, I didn't really want, I really didn't want to get divorced in the first place. I wouldn't have made the moves that I did for our family for the greater good of our family.
Brian: To just have them all wiped clean like they never happened. [00:37:00]
Julie: Okay. And have you tried to just kind of overlook this? Have you tried to just be like, you know what, I'm gonna let it go. I'm gonna try not to be upset about this. I'm gonna try to just, you know, make peace with, make peace with it. Have you tried that?
Brian: I mean, I really don't have any other options.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: I mean, if it comes down to it, the law is the law and, you know, I, I won't,
Julie: okay, so,
Julie: so part of you can say the law is the law, but I'm guessing that over here on the other end, you're, the pressure does build around this. Every time you get a message, every time something comes along that kind of reminds you of.
Julie: Of unfair, the pressure built, right?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: Yeah. It, it goes back to the 90 10, the 75, 25, whatever the split is, it's, well, I'll have to work harder to get back [00:38:00] there. Mm-hmm. And Bethany will just sit there and kick her feet up your feet up and say, my 10 is now worth 40 more. Or however she sees it. It just,
Julie: right.
Julie: And then we're back to the, the trigger, which is taken advantage of. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And that's when your body, that's when the pressure builds. And that's your body saying, this isn't how I want it to be. And what does that pressure try tell you to do? What does it motivate you to do? Is that when you
Brian: run
Julie: kind of, well, we do know that there's a part of you that runs, but in these cycles, that's when you.
Julie: I don't know, protest. Is that when you're trying to, like, convince her or tell her or get her to see, get her to see where you're coming from?
Brian: Yeah, I do .
Julie: what are you trying to motivate? What is that anger? I'm sorry, what is that? Anger. Trying to motivate. There's health in that anger
Brian: for her to see the value [00:39:00] for her to wanna meet me halfway. Brian: Um, or
Julie: what if
Julie: she doesn't?
Julie: What if she doesn't see the value? What if she doesn't meet you halfway? Where does that leave you?
Brian: In the position that I'm have been in for the last 10 months,
Brian: it's isolation, separation, you know, moving forward in a, in a different direction.
Julie: So in, so when you get these messages from, you know. Bethany, I know it's not as straightforward for you, but for Brian, for you, you get these messages, I'm being taken advantage of. You got it. Around the prenup. And it can happen just in everyday life.
Julie: That's when that pressure starts to build and that anger saying, Hey, this isn't how I want it to be. And then that's when you kind of move into [00:40:00] trying to get her to hear you, trying to get her to see, trying to get her to see that you, you, you know, maybe if I can get her to see, then she'll meet me halfway and I'll get to feel valued here.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And what's that like for you to not feel valued? That sounds like a pretty awful place for you.
Brian: It's hard to put it into words.
Julie: What comes up in your body, just as we say that. Not feeling valued. What do you notice?
Brian: Like an emptiness, a loneliness? I think it, it somewhat starts to attack like my own self-esteem, you know? .
Julie: What do you say to yourself in that place where you're longing to feel connected? Longing to feel like a [00:41:00] team?
Brian: I guess it's, it's you. You're just, you're just not good enough. Um, you know, I think that somewhat stems from childhood.
Julie: So, so on top of the fact that, you know, it's, you're feeling kind of exhausted with the burden of it all. Then you get these messages that you're just being taken advantage of. She doesn't really see that.
Julie: She doesn't really care. Then that takes you to being feeling just really alone with it all. It sounds to me like you're really longing to feel like a team here. That's something that's so important to you, and when that's not happening, you feel alone. And then this other part comes in and says, what is it about me that,
Brian: yeah.
Brian: Yeah. I, you know, we just spoke a little last night of just, you know, like longing for like a family, like a big family Christmas or [00:42:00] a family holiday, and it's just like, it's just constantly being let down, you know? And that's, that's along the lines of how I feel in that situation where it's like, you know, whatever deficiencies you had, uh, as a kid, you know, I'm trying to gain control of that, rectify it, you know, make the changes so that.
Brian: Not only do I have what I didn't have, but you know, my family does as well. And it just keeps falling short. And I just like self-reflect and go, you know, maybe it's never gonna happen for me. Maybe it's, maybe I'm not worthy of it. You know, I, I, yeah. I just don't quite understand it and then I blame myself.
Julie: Yeah.
Brian: You know, maybe it's something [00:43:00] that I'm not doing that I just continue up, continually end up in these situations.
Julie: Wow.
Julie: So it all sounds pretty important to me. Your anger is fighting for something really, really important. Protest is fighting for something really important.
Brian: Yeah, very much so.
Julie: Yeah. And just kind of sit with that and see what comes up. You just gave me a lot. You said feel isolated, feel lonely. I'm, I'm trying so hard to create these connections that I long for and I've always longed for.
Julie: And then I even wonder, what is it about me that I can't get there? How often do you put words to that?[00:44:00]
Brian: Hardly ever.
Julie: Yeah.
Brian: I probably just pick up, I just sort of accept it and pick up the pieces and move to greener pastures, you know? And I think that that's somewhat of my problem is just I keep putting things in the trash compactor. And it just is, there's just, there's not enough room anymore. It's, it's coming out of the drain.
Brian: It's just, it ends up coming out out of me. It's a lot of stuff from the past, you know, be before I even met her, but it feels like it's continually happening with her.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Right. So some of these feelings are, are old, but even in this relationship, there are times when, you know, in this life you build together and these [00:45:00] cycles you've built together, that you get these messages that there's no space for you and you're being taken advantage of.
Julie: And that's when the pressure builds, the pressure build and, and we're really learning that underneath that pressure. Because when the pressure gets to a certain boiling point, that's when you might start kind of protesting or going to that place where you're trying to convince her. Right?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: You're saying, see me.
Julie: See me.
Brian: Yeah. As I've said, I just sort of go off the rails.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Well, that's what, you know, sometimes I'm not advocating for that, but that's sometimes what humans do when there's no safe outlet for all this pressure.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: I
Julie: mean,
Julie: it sounds like you've tried all these strategies to deal with it on your own, but that hasn't been working,
Julie: and then underneath this pressure is just [00:46:00] this really sad, dark place where you feel alone and you feel longing for this connection that it sounds like your whole life, you've longed for this connection. You got some of it from your grandma.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I, I feel with, with Bethany, like I probably was not going to get ever get married because of, you know, those reasons.
Brian: And then to find somebody like her, uh, at that time was really important and just gave me a new outlook on life. Um, and it was really great for a lot of years. And then I, I don't under don't quite understand how it got so bad so quickly, but in, in our, in our separation, um, I said to her that [00:47:00] I would be naive to think that I could replicate or find something better that I actually feel felt like loved.
Brian: Than what I felt like whenever we were at our best.
Julie: Okay. Okay. So it's not just that you have these feelings, it's that you know what it was like to get all those needs met. You know what it was like to feel connected with her.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And then to lose it all. That's a whole other level of pain. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And tell me more about the pain of losing it all.
Julie: What did you lose?
Brian: I mean, what wouldn't I lose? I would lose money. I would, I would lose my family. I would lose my wife, you know, all the [00:48:00] loves surrounding it. I would lose in-laws, nieces, nephews, you know, just a lot, you know. I wouldn't say that it'd be like ground zero, but there'd be a gaping hole in my life.
Julie: So this all sounds pretty important to me because on one hand, staying in it means that you kind of keep having to walk around getting these messages
that you're, like I said before, second class citizen, you're being taken advantage of and that takes you to a bad spot.
Julie: Mm-hmm. But then walking away from the relationship, yeah, that'll get you out of all that. But then you have all this other pain to deal with.
Brian: Like, I, I feel like I just, I have to continuously climb Mount Everest all the time. Like, why is it so hard for me? And I think that, that, that sort of motivated me to think in a different [00:49:00] direction to actually work on this as opposed to throw it away.
Julie: And I really, really appreciate that about you. That's such a strength that you're willing to look at yourself and own some of this and self-reflect, but, but still, you, you haven't quite figured out how to deal with all this pain that comes up when you feel those that get those messages that somehow you're being taken advantage of.
Julie: It still hurts.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And let's go back again. Let's kind of see if we can go back into that, that pain underneath those messages, because I think that's the place that doesn't get a lot of attention.
Julie: Tell me more about the disconnected feeling. It's not just being taken advantage of. It's where that takes you emotionally. Why is that so painful for you?[00:50:00]
Julie: You'd figure out life without Bethany, you'd figure out how to put the work in. This isn't so much about the work. It's about feeling alone in the relationship.
Brian: It, it's probably the, the abandonment.
Julie: Okay. It feels abandoning.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. When, when you're, you're protesting and you're screaming out, why don't you love me?
Brian: Or Why won't you see what I, I bring to the table and, you know, whether I'm giving a hundred percent or I've completely, like, last year I just
backed off and did nothing. So from zero to a hundred, I'm still not being heard. So I, I don't see where the middle ground lays in order to be heard.
Julie: So you've tried to be [00:51:00] heard by words.
Julie: You tried to be heard by actions or non-action. None of that was getting through.
Brian: Yeah,
Brian: none of it.
Julie: And you keep finding yourself back in this place over and over no matter what you do, no matter how much protest is there, you keep finding yourself back in this painful place where you feel abandoned. And what else?
Julie: I wanna know a little bit more about that dark place for you. I want a little more words for that.
Brian: I mean, I don't, I don't know if we take it really deep and a long, long time ago, but, you know, when my parents got divorced, uh, I was just two. And it just like, I, I really feel like I'm reliving my life in like different 10 period or 10 [00:52:00] year, you know, decade periods.
Brian: Like I feel like. Now that I'm the age that I am now I get to experience, like looking at myself in my kids as, you know, maybe they don't say it or feel it, but I'm sure that they understand, you know, some somewhat what's going on, you know? And it's, it's a really like a almost like outer body experience, you know?
Brian: 'cause you know, when you're young, you don't understand all the little nuances as to why your parents split. But now with Bethany, I see it, but then how that plays into being a kid. And, and I see it in my older daughter, you know, over the past weekend with the holidays. Um, [00:53:00] and it's just,
Julie: what do you.
Julie: Would you imagine that she, that they will feel that you felt Julie: like that something isn't right
Brian: and you know that, that it's, it's maybe their fault and they feel indirectly like blamed for it.
Julie: Do you think that would be a pretty lonely place for them to go? Pretty sad, awful place for them to go?
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I, you know, I hate that for them.
Julie: And every time you get a message in this relationship that you're being taken advantage of, that's where you go. You go to that place and your body knows that place.
Julie: You've been there. You feel alone, you feel disconnected. It's a sad place. And then there's this part of you that says, maybe it's my fault. I'm here. [00:54:00]
Brian: Yeah, maybe, you know, I, I, I did say I, I somewhat blame myself, um, along the way,
Brian: but you know, at, at the time I, when I'm protesting, I feel like, how can't you see,
Julie: right. That protest is your way of trying to get out of all this. If I can just get her to see, if I can just convince her with the right words, then I don't have to feel taken advantage of. And I don't want you in this relationship feeling taken advantage of, trust me.
Julie: But then you don't have to feel that. And then underneath that, you don't have to go to the painful place. And I'm still trying to understand a little bit more about what that pain is like for you. That's the place you don't, you don't visit a lot. You're used to just staying up in the protest or the just running away from it.[00:55:00]
Julie: So I want you to just close your eyes and I want you to just see what happens when we really, really make that pain come alive. 'cause there's healing in this.
Julie: This is what's missing when we have these negative cycles. If you guys are going to be able to meet each other around this stuff, it's gonna come from this kind of conversation.
Julie: So when you just close your eyes and tell me what comes up when you just think about your kids feeling these feelings that you feel, feel every time you get hit with the message that you just don't matter.
Brian: Maybe I shouldn't be here. I, I don't know.
Brian: You know, if it's just continuously happening.
Julie: Okay, Julie, here again. So let's pause here because this is the most important moment of our session. [00:56:00] The phrase Brian just used, maybe I shouldn't be here, is the raw uncensored voice of his childhood wound. This isn't about the chores or the 50 50 debate anymore.
Julie: This is the pain of a little boy who in the chaos of his parents' divorce, came to believe that he was just not wanted or not good enough or not lovable for an anxious attached partner like Brian. A anger and protest are survival strategies used to protect this incredibly vulnerable place within him.
Julie: What you're witnessing right now is him finally letting that guard down and showing Bethany the profound pain that he's been carrying his whole life. So just take a moment here to reflect on your own protests. You know, when you get angry or critical, what is that softer, more vulnerable feeling [00:57:00] underneath?
Julie: Is it a fear of being abandoned, a feeling of being unseen, of being just nothing or invisible, or just wholly rejectable? Is it a sense that you too, are just not good enough or aren't lovable? Like all the other people around you are lovable? That is where the real story lives. I want you to close your eyes and I want you to say those words, maybe I shouldn't be here.
Julie: Close your eyes, see if you can feel into that. Those are big words.
Julie: You deserve some space in this place. You've always been left alone in this place your whole life.[00:58:00]
Julie: What's coming up?
Brian: Just I, I would say a lot of pain.
Julie: Okay.
Julie: So I want you to turn to Bethany and I want you to say underneath this anger and protest that you see is so much pain. Pain I've been living with for so long. It's like unbearable.
Brian: Yeah, it's been unbearable pain. Um.
Brian: Just carrying all this weight and, and pressure.
Julie: I'm gonna add to that, that in this place I feel so alone
Julie: and I even, there's even a part of me [00:59:00] that says, what is even wrong with me? That I'm here. Just those words.
Brian: I feel so alone in this and it's just, it's really difficult to decipher, you know, what it is about me. That I just keep ending up in this situation, not just with you, but you know, from a little kid till now.
Julie: What's it like to put some words to that place that you usually just don't show, you don't talk about.
Brian: I've talked about it, but I don't, I probably didn't go this far with it, but I felt like it's just, [01:00:00] I don't, I feel like if I say it, you could understand it, but it's just like the ladder, you know, until you live there or go there or pick it up, you'll just never understand.
Julie: Well, you know what? You're doing a great job right now of helping us understand you. This is, this is where we start with that, and Bethany, what's. What's coming up with you? You, you're clearly, your heart is clearly being touched. You're tearing up over here.
Julie: Yeah.
Bethany: I don't know what that's like and it does hurt my heart Bethany: and I
Bethany: Go ahead.
Brian: But I think you do.
Julie: Hold on one sec, Brian. We're gonna take this in layers. Okay. Because [01:01:00] the, the goal here is to better understand and something is new about this situation.
Bethany: I, my heart hurts for him because I don't know what that's like in terms of feeling it from like a little kid till now. And, you know, I don't ever, ever want him to feel alone. I recognize that I've played a part in him feeling alone the past few years.
Julie: All right, so we'll talk, we're gonna talk all about that.
Julie: We're gonna talk all about that. But right now, I just really wanna stay in this place where we're really understanding him better. And so you, you see this protest, you see these accusations coming at you, right? And that, how does that
land on you? It doesn't land well, [01:02:00] right? It, it makes you feel misunderstood and you feel guarded and you put feel pushed away.
Julie: But right now he is able to show you a little bit more about what's going on underneath that. Yeah. And do you understand that the function of that protest is so he doesn't have to go to this horrible place. That's his way of trying to regulate all this pain that he is been carrying around and this relationship and before,
Bethany: yeah.
Bethany: To hear it like that, it.
Bethany: Makes more sense.
Bethany: It makes more sense and it's good to hear it in that way and not in the form of a, of a protest.
Julie: Okay. And when you hear it in that way, what happens to your nervous system when you're getting it like this instead of just the protest coming at you?
Bethany: It opens my heart
Bethany: and I just wanna love him more and I don't ever want him to [01:03:00] feel like he shouldn't be here.
Julie: Okay. And when you say it opens your heart, is there a difference in the way your body reacts, like between those two places, the protest and the vulnerability? I'm trying to bring success and vulnerability into this equation.
Julie: So I've gotta know that this, I have to know if this was successful or not. In this, in the co-regulating aspect of it.
Bethany: I just feel, I
Bethany: feel soft, like I, I wanna put my arms out and hug him and tell him I'll help him any way that I can.
Bethany: And I don't get that when there's a
Bethany: protest.
Julie: Okay, Julie, here. So, did you feel that shift?
Julie: This is everything. You know, for the last hour, Brian's protest we're just met with Bethany's explanations, and they were just stuck in the cycle of disconnection. But the instant that he [01:04:00] shared his raw pain, her nervous system relaxed, her heart opened. That's co-regulation. His vulnerability elicited her vulnerability and her instincts to care for him came online immediately.
Julie: And this is the magic of vulnerability. His pain didn't trigger her defensiveness, it triggered her empathy. And this isn't part of the new path forward for them. We're just gonna keep repeating these experiences over and over, and they're gonna keep learning how to do it outside of here. And it shows that, you know, the capacity for co-regulation and deep connection is still there for them.
Julie: It's just waiting underneath the cycle of the negative cycle of protest and defense. And as we go forward, don't worry, we're going to spend more time exploring Bethany's moves in this cycle quite a bit of time. Um, you know, Brian is more escalated right now and before he's going to settle in to being able to hold Bethany's work.
Julie: You know, he needs a little more [01:05:00] experience being held by her. So now reflect on your own relationship. Think of a time that your partner showed you their raw, vulnerable pain without anger or blame. You know, how
did that make you feel? Did, did you, did it soften you? Did it make you want to draw them closer?
Julie: Or, you know, did something about it trigger you? And if so, what was that trigger about that you weren't able to hold that with with them? So recognizing the pull in, or even the pull out is about recognizing your own innate capacity for secure connection. Okay? So I want you to look at him and say that, you know, when I hear it in this way, it does soften me.
Julie: It does open me up. So he knows that there is a way to reach you. The way he's been trying to reach you has not been working.
Bethany: When you put it in that way,
Bethany: it softens me and [01:06:00] I'm. I wanna reach you. And by giving the message that way, it, it makes me want to help you and to reach you.
Julie: Okay. And so, you know, I, I start, I started this conversation by saying, Hey, let me hear you guys talk about this, right? Let me hear you guys try to reach each over each other over these, you know, feelings of let down and taken advantage of. And, you know, Bethany, I'm sure you're struggling with some of that too, or your own version of being let down in the relationship.
Julie: And, uh, I saw you guys go into a negative cycle. You just kind of started arguing back and forth, and both of you started kind of fighting for your own needs. Nobody's really, you're in protective, react place instead of vulnerable connecting place. And. Uh, and so then I, I said, well, hey, let's [01:07:00] try to do this differently.
Julie: And I went into you, Brian, and tried to understand a little bit more about why you're needing to protest. Like what is that protest trying to protect you from? And you were able to share a lot about yourself. I got, I got you into a more vulnerable place. More, a more authentic place, a more direct place to be honest with you.
Julie: And that did open you up, Bethany. It did help you cure him. You, you didn't have the same urge to go into your stuff and protect yourself. I didn't change the content, I didn't do anything. I just changed the delivery. I just helped you change the delivery. Brian and I have a feeling, and we don't have time to go into it right now, but I have a feeling that there's probably a part of you saying, okay, great.
Julie: Now what? You know that what, what's gonna change here? And I understand that. Um, and to be honest with you, what I have found is that these kinds of vulnerable [01:08:00] conversations start to decrease the symptoms in the relationship on their own. And we're gonna have to see, we're gonna have to see if that happens, but we're giving it the best chance.
Julie: So I, I need for us all to agree that we just have to keep doing this work and let it simmer and see if it starts to take some effect outside of here. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, and are you Brian having some kind of thoughts like that? Am I reading that right?
Brian: Is it my face? Uh,
Julie: I don't know.
Julie: Intuition, I guess therapy, intuition, .
Brian: I understand what you're saying and I have two thoughts to that. Is, um, you know, every time we get into this spot and, and I have a protest, do I have to calmly deliver all this pain from [01:09:00] childhood in order to be heard? I, I just, I don't think I really need to reiterate that.
Julie: No,
Julie: that's too heavy.
Brian: No, and I think part of our,
Julie: I mean,
Julie: I mean, honestly, maybe
Julie: sometimes there could be, there could be space for that. I don't want it to have to be that way forever. No. I want you guys to work flexibly and openly with each other and not have to go there, but we have to have these conversations in here to lay the groundwork for that.
Brian: Yeah. And the other piece that I have to, that is very. Um, very early on when we started dating, I had lost my grandfather the year before and, and we connected through our grandfathers and her grandfather grew up very similar to me, if not worse. And that's how I felt like it was a somewhat of a safe space to, to go to.
Brian: And, and nine years later I, I [01:10:00] just don't quite understand why I have to explain that, uh, in order to be heard. Um, and, and for her, from her perspective, I don't feel like she would understand either of them 'cause she didn't live them. Um, but. You know, how, how do we move forward?
Julie: Alright, Julie, here. So we had this wonderful moment, but what Brian is saying here now is, you know, sure this feels really good now, but I can't fully trust it because what if it goes away?
Julie: What if later Bethany still won't hear me? Even though we had this beautiful conversation there, there's a lot of need for those with anxious attachment to get this kind of instant reassurance that there will never be a problem again. Otherwise they have a hard time staying motivated to do more of this work.
Julie: And on top of that, um, the, the mistrust that they carry of [01:11:00] the future, what might happen in the future and what might go wrong in the future can block them from taking in the positive of whatever happened in the present. So his mind is saying, you know, well, great, but I've been vulnerable in the past and it didn't work.
Julie: Or, well, this is nice, but I can't have this conversation all the time to make her hear me, and I understand where he is coming from. Anxious partners have learned again and again in life that good things don't last. And so they stay 10 steps ahead, in their mind, 10 steps ahead in the future, trying to analyze anything that might go wrong, where they're just gonna end up once again, feeling abandoned, dropped, rejected loss, and then all their energy goes into preventing all of that from happening.
Julie: And bam, they're out of the present, just like that. And then what happens is that Bethany is over there going, well, what was the point of all that? I, I met him where he was, I empathized. I leaned in. I felt him. It was real. My heart [01:12:00] was open. But here we are again talking about what's wrong. Then that can lead Bethany right into her move in this cycle.
Julie: So if you're an anxious partner out there who can relate to this, your work is, is to just spend a little more time sitting with the positive feelings of a new experience before letting your mind wander into the what if. What if this doesn't last? What if? What if? And if you can recognize that your partner sometimes does this and you have an urge to say, see, no matter what I do, it's not enough.
Julie: Your work is to try saying something different. Like, Hey, you know, is this one of those moments when you're scared, you're just gonna lose the good stuff. I know it's been so hard for you to trust. Things will last. Let me just hold that with you right now, so at least you're not alone with it. Let me interrupt you here.
Julie: So just to kind of organize this, there's nothing that you did about explaining that helped you be heard. [01:13:00] What helped you be heard was talking more about you and your vulnerability and what's really happening to you emotionally. She can hear those explanations when she's getting to see the vulnerability and she has something to connect with.
Julie: There are no guarantees that this kind of conversation is going to make the, the ships outside of here that you need for the relationship to work. We're only increasing the odds. Okay. And in the we, we know what doesn't work, right? We know what doesn't work. What doesn't work is what you guys have been doing, which is going into these cycles where you're saying, look, I'm not, you know, I feel I'm being taken advantage of and, you know, listing your grievances.
Julie: And then she goes into, no, that's not true. Look at all I'm doing. I'm trying to be my best in listing all her grievances and listing all the ways that she actually is showing up for you. We know that doesn't work. Mm-hmm. So what I'm doing in these sessions is I'm getting out of us, out of that space and into [01:14:00] vulnerability, and we just have to wait and see how it plays out.
Julie: Now, I will tell you this, the, the more you can try to not go and, um, Bethany's got her stuff too, and I'll talk to her about that. But the more you can not go into that place of protest and instead pull yourself back and step in, do you, and go, okay, what's going on with me now, this is when I go to that painful place where.
Julie: I start to feel alone. I start, you know, underneath the, the anger and the, um, urge to kind of convince her and get her to see things clearly is this painful place I go to. Let me just be with that for a minute. And then you might say, you know, this is one of those places where I just wanna kind of start telling you what you're getting wrong, but I know that's not gonna get us anywhere.
Julie: Um, can you just hear me right now in a different way? I, there's, [01:15:00] we're early in the work, so I don't know exactly what those words would need to sound like, but it's better than just going into that place where
you're kind of telling her everything she's getting wrong. That's the protest. So the, the first step is to, is to be with your own pain first, right?
Julie: Instead of just, you know, kind of. Skipping that part and going right into the anger. I want you to get, get a little more familiar with sitting with your own pain first. Right? And then we're gonna start helping her come in and helping you with that. And no, I don't want it to be, you know, forever until the end of time that the only way you guys can deal with di Division of labor issues is for you to have to go in and talk about your childhood wounds.
Julie: That wouldn't work. I wanna get it to a place where we use that as much as we need it to get you guys softened to each other and understanding each other and seeing each other in a new way. Um, so that you don't have to [01:16:00] do that, you don't have to work so hard. This just becomes more of a, Hey, we both love each other.
Julie: We wanna show up for each other. We have empathy for each other, and it, it starts to flow and we get that through vulnerability. Does that make sense?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. All right. Well, I will, um. Bethany, how are you doing? Just to check in.
Bethany: I'm fine. I'm good. Okay.
Julie: Alright. Alright, well I will, um, I'll see you guys, uh, next week.
Julie: Alright. So let's just take a moment with what we heard today. The turning point in this session wasn't a logistical logical solution to dividing chores. The shift happened when Brian stopped protesting and with my guidance connected to the deep, unbearable pain underneath it all, a pain so profound that it led him to say the words, maybe I shouldn't be here.
Julie: The core insight [01:17:00] from our session is this. It, it was Brian's raw pain, not his anger that finally reached Bethany. His vulnerability instantly softened her, opened her heart, and made her want to, to just wrap her arms around him. Connection isn't born from strategy or proving a point. It's born from the courageous act of showing our wounds and, and being able to hold our partner's wounds when they show them.
Julie: And what we learned is that Bethany's relationship behaviors do play a big role in Brian's wounds. But still, his wounds didn't start with Bethany. He shared that he never thought he would even get married. He carried a deep seated feeling his whole life of being unworthy that stemmed from his childhood and his parents' divorce.
Julie: And so we need for two things to happen here for Brian to start healing. We need for Brian to learn how to help his own wounds, and we [01:18:00] need for Bethany to learn how to help his wounds and we need for the relationship between them to learn how to feel good and connecting and warm and safe. So that it too can help Brian with his wounds.
Julie: So think about that. You're carrying wounds too. Every one of you listening has wounds from somewhere. What if instead of those wounds just sitting there unhealed, they were getting the help they need from you in the way that you respond to them, but not just from you, from your partner, in the way that they behave and respond to you too, and from your relationship in the way that it consistently, day after day interaction after interaction helps you feel seen and heard and held and like a team and all those things that you longed for your whole life.
Julie: You would heal. You would heal. Okay, so for your homework this week, I want you to think about one of your [01:19:00] own protests. The next time you feel that angry, critical energy rising, pause and just ask yourself. What is the vulnerable feeling hiding beneath this? Is it sadness? Is it loneliness? Is it a fear of not being good enough?
Julie: Just try to name it for yourself. And if you're the partner of a partner who does a lot of protesting, I want you to do the opposite. I want you to pause and ask yourself when they maybe go to that critical place, what, what might the vulnerable feeling be hiding beneath? You know, just what I'm seeing on the surface.
Julie: Is it sadness? Is it loneliness? Or are they afraid? Maybe they're not good enough or they'll just be rejected. So just see to see if you can try to just step into their world and understand them a little better, and we'd love to hear what you discover. So please just, you know, send a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and we might just end up featuring your story in a future episode.
Julie: [01:20:00] Well, thank you for joining me today, and thank you again to Bethany and Brian for your bravery and vulnerability and willing to share yourselves here with us so that we can all learn and heal together. What you heard was the hard, beautiful work of choosing to be real over being right. It's a reminder that healing is possible, not when life is perfectly fair, but when two people are finally willing to meet each other in the mess.
Julie: So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your relationships.
