A Year Later with Melissa & Drew (Season 1 Update)
This week, we take a special mid-season break to catch up with our Season 1 couple, Melissa and Drew. It's been a year since we last heard from them, and they're back to share an honest update. We revisit their old anxious-avoidant cycle—Melissa's fear of Drew's shutdowns and their struggles with parenting differences—and hear how they are navigating those triggers today.
Melissa and Drew share that while they've made "tremendous strides" in co-regulation, their work isn't over; in fact, they're continuing their journey with another therapist. Their update is a powerful, real-world look at what comes after the initial breakthroughs and serves as a vital reminder that healing is an ongoing process, not a final destination.
This check-in provides crucial context for our current season. Melissa and Drew's journey shows that even a less-escalated couple requires time, highlighting the patience needed for a highly-escalated couple like Bethany and Brian. This episode is a testament that growth is not linear, but a messy, courageous, and long-term journey.
This week's prompt: Reflect on your own healing journey. Where have you made "tremendous strides," and what parts of your old cycle do you still have to work on?
Send your responses to this prompt or any questions or comments about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecureelationship.com. Your submission might be featured on a future episode.
Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.
For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast
Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course
Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime
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A Year Later with Melissa & Drew (Season 1 Update)
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed couples therapist and author of the book Secure Love, and Actually Secure Love is coming out on paperback in February, so I'm getting ready to do a big push for that. So today we're gonna do something a little different.
Julie: We're going to take a mid-season break here with Bethany and Brian, and we're going to do something really special. We're catching up with our season one couple, Melissa and Drew. So it's been about a year since we wrapped up with them last December, I believe. And so we're going to check in to see how they're doing and you'll remember their journey probably, which is navigating parenting differences and that classic anxious avoidance cycle where Melissa really struggled with Drew's shutdowns and he.
Julie: To meet her emotionally and they [00:01:00] both worked on. Improving their relationship with self so they could improve the way that they showed up with each other with more vulnerability and learned how to be emotionally safe. And that was really made a big difference in their relationship. So I, I just wanna thank them again for joining us and you know, their honesty about where they are in their journey.
Julie: You'll see they've made tremendous strides, but their work isn't over and they've had a year here to put this work into practice and, you know, their transformation. Just continues to unfold like it does in all relationships. You know, we're all a work in progress and they were also, you know, in the last year, really able to get clear about their blind spots, and they're actually ready to pick back up and do a few follow-up sessions, which is very normal.
Julie: So they'll be working with one of the therapists in my practice, and, you know, again, they're, they're making so much progress and they really see the value in [00:02:00] continuing this work. So this check-in with Melissa and Drew feels very timely because it brings me to a reflection on. Season two. So if a, as you're listening to Bethany and Brian, and I know it's raw, it's messy, it's, it's stressful.
Julie: You know, you're hearing the early realtime struggles of a very distressed couple couples are in varying levels of distress when they come to therapy. And, you know, Bethany and Brian have been separated for a year. And, and so they're, they're hurting a little more than other couples. So you're hearing their dysregulation and just how quickly they go into their negative cycles.
Julie: And this is that, you know, a really clear example of one step forward, two steps back. And I do understand that a lot of you are feeling. Frustration and anxiety as you listen. Uh, but I, I do just wanna level set our [00:03:00] expectations here. You know, this is what it really looks like. This is raw therapy, and it, it's still very, very early in their process.
Julie: Um, again, Bethany and Brian are, are just more distressed than Melissa and Drew were, and. This, this type of work with more escalated couples that are just more sensitive to these cycles and are honestly less safe with each other, which is what's driving it. Um, a lot of times this, a couple like this will take years of therapy to really, you know, get where they want to be the very least many months.
Julie: And I, I really believe that that's what makes this work we're doing in this podcast so special because it, this podcast isn't like some of the other therapy shows that you might see where things are, you know, cut and edited to show this clean breakthrough, which, that type of setup can be useful too.
Julie: But this is different. You know, we don't fast forward three weeks to just showing the success story. [00:04:00] You're really getting the raw, unfiltered, moment by moment, minute by minute account of their struggle and. It only stands to reason that some nervous systems start off with more of this rewiring process that they need to do.
Julie: And of course, the starting point defines the overall distance of really any journey. So that's why this check-in with Melissa and Drews is just really perfect for now. Even they who a couple who were, you know, less emotionally charged are still continuing their work a year later. So I just wanna urge us all to really have patience and grace for Bethany and Brian and, you know, if you can find a place for patience and grace within you while still holding your own value system and your own boundaries, which is not an easy balance to strike, that's actually a, a strong sign of emotional maturity to be able to kind of hold all of it at once.
Julie: So, alright. Well, before we jump into our session with Melissa and Drew, [00:05:00] let's get to some of your questions and comments and. We'll start off here with Jeff. So this is from Jeff. Julie. Season two is so great. I see my marriage relationship issues so much in Bethany and Brian. I'm very much anxious and my spouse is avoidant.
Julie: We are struggling, and at the point of almost breaking, my spouse has threatened me with the D word and it has crushed my soul. I've been working
on myself individually, read your book, attending lots of therapy, talked with pastors, et cetera. My spouse won't even sit down to talk. She frames every attempt I make at trying to connect and share my feelings and what's bothering me as an attack.
Julie: The results usually with the entire conversation being about everything I get wrong and my lack of giving her space and time. My biggest fear right now is that she is using this so-called space to secretly plan her exit. She recently told me [00:06:00] I need to learn to regulate my emotions and just trust her more, and I do agree and I will continue to do my own inner work, but it's very hard to trust her when she flat out avoids me and gives me absolutely nothing to have a sense of trust.
Julie: The silence is poison and is only growing my resentment. How do I navigate this situation? I want our marriage to grow, but I feel that she has one foot out the door. I'm so interested in doing season three with you. I would love to be your next. Brian and Bethany, thank you for your exemplary work. Help me, help us, Jeff.
Julie: Well, hi Jeff. First of all, I just want to, you know, express my. Apologies and regrets that you're going through this. It is truly really, really awful and painful to have to be going through this in your relationship where not only are you experiencing this disconnection in the here and now, but then you also, your nervous system has to be [00:07:00] afraid of what's gonna happen in the future.
Julie: And I just really empathize with that. And, you know, the, the reality is, is that you can't do this work alone. Um, one of the things that is a contraindication to the type of work that I do, emotionally focused therapy is in. If a partner has, has a secret agenda, or even if their agendas don't line up at all.
Julie: And you know, if you're, if you're worried that your partner has this agenda of an exit strategy and you have plenty of evidence to believe that's true, it will be impossible for your nervous system to settle and trust. So, you know, that is a very real problem, that it's impossible not to hurt and be scared around that.
Julie: And, you know, if, if that is the case, right, where your partner is just really kind of checked out of the relationship, the only other option is, is to do the inner work and like you're doing and, and, [00:08:00] but it's not just to show up differently in the relationship, it's to find. Ways, healthier ways to deal with your pain around this so you don't just have to get stuck in it.
Julie: So often, you know, operationally what that looks like is every time you feel let down in the relationship, every time you reach and you try to get a response and you don't, um, there's some some grief work to do there. It's not just grief from your past, it's grief from re the reality in this moment that my partner isn't there for me and I'm alone with this.
Julie: And you might have to just sit with those feelings and allow the pain to be and. After that, maybe reach out to someone else who might be able to be there for you and, and just join you in that so you don't have to be alone with it. And then we have this other piece, which is sometimes the healthiest thing to do is detach from the expectations that our partner is going to be able [00:09:00] to show up for us right here and now, and maybe they might not be able to show up for us in the future.
Julie: And, you know, I, I can never say that's how it will be because I'm not working with this situation. But I do know that sometimes the only thing that we can do is accept that pain and learn to manage it and learn to heal it in the best way possible. And then not keep having these expectations. Because
continuing to have these expectations when you keep getting let down is really, really hard for your nervous system.
Julie: And the only alternative from really being able to grieve. These moments? Moments is, is just staying stuck in anxiety and anger. Anxiety and anger are our emotions that drive us to do something to get a new response. And if that isn't happening, sometimes we have to get below that and just really dive into the fear and put words to it in grief.
Julie: I wish I had a better answer for you. [00:10:00] Um, but you know, it, it doesn't mean the situation's hopeless sometimes when we can do that work, it, it does kind of take some of the energy out of the system and, and sometimes that, um, deescalation of, of emotion in the system can kind create some space for everybody to start reflecting a little more on what they want and what they might be doing to contribute to the problem.
Julie: Thank you Jeff for that. I appreciate you writing in. And um, you mentioned season three. Uh, so we do have a couple lined up for season three, but we will be having a season four after that. So please, you know, go ahead and, and send us an email and we will give you some consideration. Alright, so this is from Ross.
Julie: Hi. I've learned a lot about attachment styles and how they affect security in a relationship, but I was wondering whether protest behaviors. Followed had
their own independent set of patterns [00:11:00] that organized into their own categories the same way as insecure attachment styles generally organize into anxious and avoidant.
Julie: I noticed that when Brian is able to speak to his feelings from a place of vulnerability, I really relate to his experience, especially his feelings of being a second class citizen or his fear of being taken advantage of. But when he is relating his protest behaviors, they're completely unlike the protest behaviors I find myself drawn to, even to the point of resembling protest behaviors I've seen from avoidant partners.
Julie: I'm really curious about what other factors go into the choice of a particular protest behavior that can lead people who are coming from very similar emotional wounds to protest in such different ways. Thank you so much for this podcast. It has been an amazing resource, Ross. All right. Well, thank you Ross for writing in.
Julie: Great question. Um, you know, protest behaviors are broad. Yes, there can be kind of subcategories. You know, not every [00:12:00] anxious attachment is going to show up in the same way as another anxious attachment. Um, and same for avoidant, um, protest behaviors are all, all have the same hope and goal. They're all a way to show hurt and motivate change.
Julie: And they're almost always outer focused, meaning, um, they're trying to motivate change and the other, and just to address, you know. Second class citizen, um, feelings of being a second class citizen aren't protest, which I think that you, you know, from your question, those are belief systems based on real or perceived messages from a partner.
Julie: And then the feelings that come from those beliefs, and the broad belief here is, do my needs matter? Am I seen? And so attachment style is defined by, by what you're most sensitive to, what fears you're most sensitive to in the relationship, and then what you do with those fears. And sometimes it's not so [00:13:00] black and white and you know, because Brian does lead lean into that more disorganized sometimes, not all the time.
Julie: You will see some shifting around in the way that he shows up. And at the end of the day, you know, predominantly anxious attachment is going to fall back on change them and avoidant attachment is going to fall back on, help myself feel better, do the work myself. But some avoidance are more protesting than others in certain situations.
Julie: Um, but usually broadly speaking, they're playing defense. Alright, well thank you so much Ross, for that question. I hope that helps you understand a bit. Okay. And now we will move into our voice notes and we'll start with Isabelle.
Listener Segment: Hello Julie. My name's Isabelle. I'm, as you can hear from the uk. I just wanted to thank you for your podcast.
Listener Segment: It's been really informative and interesting listening to the work that you do with your brave couples. My question relates specifically to EFT [00:14:00] therapy and. Um, whether it is something that, or whether it's a model of therapy that can be useful for a single person, I've come to understand that, uh, a lot of the difficulties that I've had in relationships have been because of attachment difficulties.
Listener Segment: And I've spent a lot of time and money and therapy, uh, over the last decade or so trying to make sense of things. And I've made some progress, but at times felt that I've got lost in, in the therapy process, um, and not made the progress that I've wanted to make. And so listening to your podcast, I've felt that EFT therapy is more focused and something that I'd be really keen to explore myself.
Listener Segment: But I guess I'm wondering whether it's a therapy process that is better suited to couples or whether it could also be used, uh, or helpful for a single person in therapy. I look forward to hearing the rest of the podcast and learning more as I listen. [00:15:00] Thank you. Bye.
Julie: Well, hi Isabel. Thank you for joining us all the way from uk.
Julie: You have a great question. Uh, yes. There is a version of EFT for individuals and it's very successful. It's called iFit, so it's emotionally focused individual therapy. What you said is a great way to describe it. I got lost in the therapy and. This is one of the things that really makes this emotionally focused model stand out, which is it's, it's meant to really organize your experience, um, consistently organize your experience over and over again during the sessions, meaning that.
Julie: You are always going to start with a trigger relationships and your life in general. And moments when things aren't working for you are always going to start with some sort of trigger that activates your nervous system because there's some sort of threat. And then we're gonna go from the threat [00:16:00] to kind of diving into the bodily experience of that threat.
Julie: And then we're gonna go into what are the fears around this threat and what are the consequences of this fear? It doesn't end with a fear, it's it's where does this fear go? You know, if this fear is actually true, and then that's gonna lead us into, and how painful will that be if these things come true?
Julie: You know, if you really do lose the relationship, um, there's, there's a ton of pain in that and a lot of times people are really not able to put words to these fears and these. Pains, they're either feeling in the present or feeling from a long time ago, or afraid of feeling in the future. Usually it's some of all three.
Julie: And then, you know, we wanna bring in how is your, you know, kind of shame and some of these self beliefs that we carry around impacting all of this stuff and making it even worse. And then we wanna link it to how are you managing all of that? How are you managing all of these feelings? Because we're either going [00:17:00] to manage all of this stuff in a healthy way or a not so healthy way.
Julie: And so. With EFT, we're doing all of that work, but then we're looking at, you know, how are you showing up in your relationship with your partner when all of this gets tapped into, and how can we help you, help yourself there and help you reach to your partner and, and partners help each other in these places.
Julie: Um, when you're doing the individual work, it's more about helping yourself in these places. Um, and then also, you know, part of helping yourself in these places is seeking out people who can also help you in these places. But it's more of that self-work of how can I show up for self, um, without adding that piece in of how can you communicate this to your partner and help each other?
Julie: And it is, it is profoundly transformational. Uh, you know, I like this kind of phrase that I got from my mentor, George Fowler, that I talk about a lot, which is cocoa and, and, and so EFT is always doing. [00:18:00] Co-regulation and co meaning. It's not just the emotional work, which is the co-regulation part between the therapist and the client, between the partners, but it's also Coan organizing all of this and seeing it very clearly how we can sort of scaffold all this in our experience and then plug it into these negative cycles in the relationship.
Julie: And just to add into this, Isabel and anybody else who's looking for help with this, I do have a workshop on my website to specifically for anxious attachment. I haven't made the avoidant one yet, but it's specifically to help those with anxious attachment do all of this inner work. It's once you, you
know, as you're going through it, it's a sev several hours long workshop because it repeats this process over and over to really get in there and install the work into your nervous system.
Julie: And it's really meant to walk you through this scaffolding process and start showing up for yourself in new ways in the service of. Just feeling more comfortable in your own [00:19:00] skin and in the service of showing up in
healthier ways in your relationships and the way that you reach and respond to the people in your life, whether they're a partner or not.
Julie: Alright, well, thank you, Isabelle. Excellent question. So glad to have you here joining us in this journey with Bethany and Brian, and today, Melissa and Drew. Alright. So, you know, we get emails all the time because, you know, the podcast is still out there, so people are still listening. Um, even now, you know, people are just, some people are just starting, right?
Julie: So, um, we get emails all the time just wanting to check in with you guys. So I just wanted to, you know, give you guys the opportunity to talk about how the experience has helped you and anything that you can, any insight you can ha um, offer to the listeners. Um, I'd like to know. I can ask you some questions as we go because I, I have obviously a thousand questions for [00:20:00] you, but why don't you guys just start and kind of, you know, brief flow about what you got out of this and how you guys are doing more importantly.
Melissa: Do you want me to start? Um, oh gosh. I, so when we, I think, um, really reflecting on the whole experience, I mean, it was, it was life changing. I think what an incredible experience that it was. And, and you're in it, you're doing the work. Um, but I, I think really once we're, we completed it and we looked back, it was then that we really realized, uh, I don't know if we realized how bad of a place we were in prior to, to starting that.
Melissa: And, um, I mean, I don't know. That we would be okay had we not com completed that work, um, individually and together. I think we didn't know what to expect going in, [00:21:00] um, because we hadn't done a lot of pre reading or, you know, anything leading up to that. So we just blindly came in and I think really in a raw place doing that work, I think we needed it individually and together.
Melissa: And I think it's really given us a roadmap. Now, I'm not gonna say that things are perfect, but things are less. Um. Hopeless and less terrifying. So when those cycles come up or when, um, those triggers or, or different things
are happening, we just have a different toolkit and a different lens that we are approaching it with.
Melissa: And so it's still hard. Um, life is still life and, and it still feels challenging or frustrating at times, but we're much quicker to reach a safer place, um, in, in the way that we approach it, which [00:22:00] has been incredible. Um, it's very hopeful, very peaceful, very, it's, it's changed our whole life, I think.
Julie: Wow.
Melissa: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. Um. Building on that. I mean, I feel like we leveled up our marriage. Um, I think, you know, prior to coming in and working with you, Julie, it was a lot of uncertainty about what kind of lied ahead and, you know, I think being able to, you know, be vulnerable and open up through, you know, those, those, those, you know, more or less 20, 20 weeks of, of, of, of our discussions.
Drew: Um, you know, I think any, kinda like when I reflect back a lot of those cycles that would just really just break us, break us down that we weren't really able to ever work through. Uh, it just seems they, they seem so small now, um, when, when, when we kind of reflect back and, you know, it's really allowed us to come together and, and, you know, be able to kind of take on things that, that
like, like [00:23:00] parenting challenges and, and, and, you know, and like Mel said, um, you know, it's a lot of the, a lot of the struggles that that, that we, we used to have that.
Drew: You know, we're, we're able to work through those with a lot more clarity now and, and much more quickly. Um, I, I wouldn't say that like things are absolutely perfect and we never have a negative cycle like we used to, but, you know, we, we, we know exactly how to manage it, how to come together, you know, between the two of us and, and really just get to the root cause of it pretty quickly and, you know, be able to kind of talk through that, share how we're feeling, and, and, yeah.
Drew: On, on onto the next. So.
Julie: That's beautiful. I'm just so glad that you guys are able, we're, and you, you know, a testament to the work you were willing, willing to put in. 'cause I know it, it, some of those sessions were pretty tough. Yeah. Tough but good.
[00:24:00] Tough. Yes. Tough but very useful. They're not useful if they're not tough.
Julie: Right, right. All right. Well that's wonderful. So, you know, when we, when we think of the, kind of the trajectory of this work, the first step is just getting those negative cycles to where they're happening less often and they're less intense and you're repairing faster. And you know, definitely you guys have found that place.
Julie: And then the second part of the work is really more designed to help you guys build stronger relationships with self and kind of be able to do your own emotions as individuals. And it, you know, that's kind of the deep dive into that work. And then on top of that, to help you guys use what you find inside of yourselves to more deeply bond with each other.
Julie: So would you say that, you know, not only are you fighting less, but you're actually feeling more emotionally connected?
Melissa: Uh, I would say that process is, is definitely beginning. Um, that is. [00:25:00] That's definitely an area where, where we're still growing. I'll, I'll be honest about that. Um, I feel very aware of it, um, which is huge growth.
Melissa: Um, I, I feel very much more aware of myself. I can see Drew taking huge initiative in the things that he is aware of taking ownership over. Um, and so I think each of us working individually on those things has brought so much more closeness and safety between the two of us. And I think we both have
more goals and growth that, that we hope to achieve, um, individually so that we can continue to grow more together.
Melissa: I would say that's definitely the phase that we're in, that we, we want to continue in.
Julie: Yeah. At the very least, you feel that, [00:26:00] feel that you have more skills to keep practicing in a way that will help you keep growing. For sure. Drew, do you have anything to say about that?
Drew: Um, I, I think what comes to mind is, uh, probably a lot less defensive than I used to be.
Drew: Um, I, I would say I was very guilty of that, you know, prior to, prior to our, our work and, you know, I, I was always looking to kind of like point a finger or, or figure out an excuse as to why it was not my fault. And I think, you
know, I think really reflecting back, if I'm honest with even myself and honest with this conversation, you know, it's, it's more about really being patient and trying to really understand how, you know, Melissa feels about, you know, any of those particular cycles that we would find ourselves stuck in.
Drew: And, you know. Taking, taking how I feel out of it and really trying to [00:27:00] understand, you know, where she's coming from. And I think, you know, that's a huge takeaway and I think that's helped me tremendously. 'cause I've, I've kind of re rewired myself to really try to slow down and pick up on some of those, you know, some of that body language from, from Melissa when things might be going a little bit sideways and, and try to, try to dig in and really understand kind of what's going on, but not coming at it from, you know, a defensive posture.
Drew: Like I, like, I like I had before, but really trying to come at it from a more open and, and vulnerable kind of, uh, perspective. And that, that's, that's been going pretty well, I'd say.
Julie: I love it. It sounds like you're, you're able to lean in, right? You're able to lean into what's going on with her in those moments when in the past it would kind of trigger that fear place in you.
Drew: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And then, and then I'm assuming [00:28:00] the same is happening in reverse, Melissa, you're better able to lean in to where he's at when he's needing you.
Melissa: Yeah, I think we, I think we have a lot more empathy for, um, ourselves but also for each other in, in saying, okay, like this, I, I see your response and it, and it makes sense.
Melissa: And of course you're feeling that way. Um, let's try a different approach than, than traditionally we've done. And, and I think that has served us really, really well.
Julie: Beautiful. Beautiful. And I love how you said you have more empathy for self because that's such a huge part of this work is being able to see yourselves and empathize with self, which is really what helps you more fully do so for each other.
Julie: Yeah. So I do, I do have a couple more questions here. Um. Do you have any tips, you know, for all these listeners out there who [00:29:00] joined you in this journey, any, any kind of tips that have really been useful for the two of you now that you are, you know, an a plus couple? You guys are, you guys can write the book now, right?
Julie: Right.
Drew: I don't know about that. I,
Drew: I, I, I don't know if this is a tip more, I don't know if it's a tip as much as it is just, just, just some positive feedback, but, you know, I think kind of building on what, where I was going earlier with, you know, just opening up and being more vulnerable, I think really what comes to mind when I say, like, I, I would, you know, prior, prior to working with you, Julie, it was always kind of the defensive posture and I would say like, you know, we were really guilty and, you know, I contributed to kind of building resentment between the two of us and.
Drew: You know, I, I think just have, having awareness of that, that, you know, we we're, we're really trying to avoid, you know, building resentment, but it's not [00:30:00] about who's right or wrong. Right? It's about kind of coming together really. If, if you truly love your, your, your spouse and your partner, it's, it's really about just coming together because you need to be there for them.
Drew: Because one of us are struggling and, and I think part of it is just being, being. Able to, to open up and really share how you feel no matter who's right or wrong with it, because you're trying to get through that together. And I think that's really kind of what's grounded me coming out of those sessions over the last year.
Drew: And, and, and it's something, again, I don't know if I'm necessarily have, have perfected being able to do it exceptionally well every time, but it's something I like to reflect on. And I think it's really been able to help me, you know, as a husband, as a dad, um, you know, with, with the, the, all the stressors that exist, right?
Drew: It's, it's work, it's family, it's, it's, you know, friends and, and trying to balance all of it. Um, but at the end of the day, you [00:31:00] know, I, I try to. Fam, my family and, and the love for, you know, Melissa always comes first. And, you know, being able to recognize that and make sure that, you know, that we kind of stay emotionally connected all throughout the way.
Drew: And if, if something gets in the way of that, you know, it's being able to recognize some of those patterns and work through it.
Julie: Wow. That's must feel really good.
Drew: I, I would, I would say so. I mean, honestly it does.
Julie: Your face is lighting up, so Yeah. Yeah. So let me a ask you something. You know, a lot of, a lot of men out there, um, and some women too, you know, they, they hear this, okay, we, you know, we're gonna do this emotional work, right?
Julie: And it's time for you to learn to be more emotionally available. And, and there are people out there that, that is, feels really intimidating to them. And, and sometimes it just feels intimidating because we don't want to feel these [00:32:00] things that we're so used to stuffing down. What, why in the world would we wanna do that?
Julie: Right? Um, but, and then there's also men that don't wanna lose, like their sense of kind of like masculinity or their ability to put their feelings to the side when they need to get through something really hard. And have you noticed that, you know, what, what are your thoughts on that?
Drew: I, I think when I look back.
Drew: How I was raised, you know, it was from, from a father who was, while very caring, but, but very closed off from, from being able to effectively kind of show, show emotion and, you know, I, I, I have to. Kind of look in the mirror sometimes and and say to myself, like, am I be, am I, am I mimicking or mirroring that to to, to my, to my own children?
Drew: And, and in our case, right, my, my daughter and my twin boys. So, you know, do I want to be that person? Um, or, or do I, do I wanna be, do I wanna show that, that it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to [00:33:00] express emotions, good, bad, or otherwise? And, you know, and part of that is, you know, I know this is an overused, probably an overused term anymore, but it's like, you know, how do I start exercising some of that emotional intelligence and, and, and showing, showing my own children?
Drew: And it's okay to, to, you know, o open up and, and be vulnerable, right? It, it's, it's okay to say that I'm, I'm afraid, or that, that, that I'm scared. And, and that's, that's really important to me. And, you know, I think I'm, I'm kind of
working through how to do that better as a, uh, as, as obviously a a, a dad with young, young, younger kids.
Drew: But, uh, I think that's, that kind of stands out when I, when I wanna respond to that question a little bit, just, just thinking through kind of that, that topic area, um,
Julie: that, that might be a tough one. You can pass on that one if you'd like, but
Drew: No, that's okay. I'll, I'll, I'll do my best to respond to that. Um, I, I think [00:34:00] when I look back how I was raised, you know, it was from, from a father who was, while very caring, but, but very closed off from, from being able to effectively kind of show, show emotion and, you know, I, I, I have to.
Drew: Kind of look in the mirror sometimes and and say to myself, like, am I be, am I, am I mimicking or mirroring that to to, to my, to my own children? And, and in our case, right, my, my daughter and my twin boys. So, you know, do I want be that person? Um, or, or do I, do I wanna be, do I wanna show that, that it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to express emotions, good, bad, or otherwise?
Drew: And, you know, and part of that is, you know, I know this is an overused, probably an overused term anymore, but it's like, you know, how do I start exercising some of that emotional intelligence and, and, and showing, showing my own children that it's okay to, to, you know, o open up and, and be [00:35:00] vulnerable. Right?
Drew: It, it's, it's okay to say that I'm, I'm afraid, or that, that, that I'm scared. And, and that's, that's really important to me. And, you know, I think I'm, I'm kind of working through how to do that better as a, uh, as, as obviously a, a, a
dad with young, young, younger kids. But, uh, I think that's, that kind of stands out when I, when I wanna respond to that question a little bit, just, just thinking through kind of that, that topic area.
Drew: Um,
Melissa: and I, I'd like to build on that too, because I think being on, like the observing and the receiving end of it, I think that, you know, as, as a wife, there is a version of masculinity that you receive in a marriage that, like you hear a toxic max masculinity thrown around a lot, but the version of masculinity that I get to experience from Drew now.[00:36:00]
Melissa: It's night and day. It's, it's like leadership in our home, it's safety in our home. Like when he has, he has done this work and when he is vulnerable, like he can handle the big emotions in our 4-year-old boys and not get rattled and show them like, you're experiencing that and I've got it. Like he can handle my big emotions and just let them pass and be there for me.
Melissa: And it's like, it's not scary. Like he's got it. He's, he's okay. He can handle it like there's a tornado in the house and he's just not shaken by it.
Julie: I love it. I love it. That's so encouraging. 'cause I, what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, not only has this not taken his masculinity, but it's actually enhanced it.
Melissa: Absolutely.
Julie: And that's pretty amazing, right? Yeah. That we can, yeah. [00:37:00] I especially, I mean, it's amazing in the, in considering how, you know, how we've been conditioned to believe that emotional attune attunement to self and others is this feminine thing and it's just, you know, not okay for men. And I know those, those beliefs are shifting now, you know, but you know, just looking back, drew, when you were a kid, that was like not even part of the conversation whatsoever.
Julie: Right? Yeah. Which is so sad, so sad. Um, alright, thank you for that. Let me ask you this. Um, this is, I don't know if I should be asking this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Um, do you guys notice, like, can you see, you know, in other couples around you that might be having some issues? Like, do, do you see things now more clearly?
Julie: Like, um, some of the challenges around you that Yeah, I'm just curious if you can.
Melissa: I'm just, I'm laughing because we, [00:38:00] we will talk about, like, we don't talk bad about other pe but our conversation the other night was like, we literally asked ourselves, or maybe it was just me asking the question of, is something wrong with us?
Melissa: I think I said to Drew, I feel like I'm going crazy because, you know, it's this relative, it's this neighbor, it's this friend and it's people we love. It's people we respect. It's people who are good people who are trying their best, but like, when you now possess this toolkit and the people around, you don't, you're
not gonna get in anybody's face and be like, you have to try this and you have to do this, but you.
Melissa: I don't know how to say what I'm trying to say. Like, you, you want to give people this same good thing that you now have, but you can see the struggles that people are having, and so you don't wanna get in their business and tell them what to do. Sure. But you're like, yeah.
Julie: It's not, it's not a
Julie: judgmental kind of thing.
Julie: It's, yeah.
Melissa: [00:39:00] Right. But we definitely notice in people around us, things we wish we could give the people that we love so much, um, because we, we care for them. But yeah, I mean, you just, it's all around us. I mean, we see all the time. Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. I think the challenge too with that is, you know, and, and, and Melissa kind of said it well, right?
Drew: It's, it's friends, relatives, it's, you know, neighbors, whatnot. You know, and, and you, you, you kind of look, you kind of self-reflect on, you know, how much, I guess, how much improvement there's been and, and the way that we are connected through love and that security of that. Um. And, and, and those around us, you can just see them, you know, and how they interact with one another, how they treat their children.
Drew: And, and it's just, it's, it's, it's different. Um, and I'm not gonna say it's like a negative, [00:40:00] right? Everybody, everybody kind of operates, you know, the way they, they, they, they best see fit. But, you know, I'm just, you know, I kind of look back and, and, and, and I say to myself, man, I'm just, it, it just makes me so grateful that we, we did, we did put in the time and put in the effort and the work and, and opened ourselves up, um, completely.
Drew: And, you know, through, through that vulnerability, just to be able to get to where we are today, to kind of, kind of rebuild that, that, that, that, you know, you wanna say that, that security between the two of us and, and trust. Um, and
I, I wish I, I wish that could be, I wish I could see the same for those that we care about that are all around us, but, you know, and it's, it's.
Melissa: Because that was us.
Drew: That was us. Yeah. And I'm, and I look back and I'm like, you know, I, I don't wanna say I'm glad that's not us, but, you know, I, I am, um, that question, Julius such a coincidence that, that, that this moment, because one of my very, very best friends that, that I've, I've known, known all [00:41:00] my life, um, reached out to me actually just yesterday and had had said, Hey, you know, I, I think you and Melissa kind of went through some, some, like, couples, couples therapy for a while and, you know, I'd, I'd love just to, and this is somebody who is, has, has, has been, you know, you know, kind of that persona of masculinity, right?
Drew: Ne never opens up, never wants to talk feelings. Kind of always laughs it off. And finally reached out to me yesterday and said, Hey, you know, I know that you guys went through this and you know, I, I'm kind of starting to notice some, some struggles, you know, in my life and would, would love just to get together and chat with you.
Drew: And I was totally caught off guard by that, but. You know, do I want to be there for him? Absolutely, yes. Do I wanna refer him? Absolutely.
Julie: Yeah. That's that's great. You know, that's how this, it just spreads. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm, I'm sure he, he's reaching for that because he sees the transformation in the two of you.
Drew: Yeah. And, you know, and that [00:42:00] individual, you know, he'll, he'll come over and, you know, hang out and, you know, play with the kids and, you know, we catch up. But, you know, I think probably what, what I don't realize is like, in the background, right? He's seeing how we are interacting as a family, um, and how Melissa and I kind of even speak to each other and how we're there for one another.
Drew: And, you know, those are some of the indirect things that we don't always kind of see day to day. Because, you know, we're, we're living this, living this on, on the daily too, but o others are noticing. And that, that's, that's a great thing. Um, it's, it,
Julie: I think it's. Yeah. Makes the world, makes the world a better place, for sure.
Julie: Um, so this is, this is a good, um, time to kind of point something out where what happens is, you know, over and over again, I've noticed that when
we get couples really stronger and, and more emotionally bonded and on the same team, that some of these symptoms, even in things that seem so seemingly unrelated, start to improve.
Julie: And so do you feel that because you guys feel more connected and [00:43:00] on the same team, it's much easier to navigate these extended family issues that may have in the past, you know, kind of got in between the two of you?
Melissa: I, I, I think so. I think even we have, man, I don't think we realized how rough of a place we were in prior to this work, but I think when you go into fight or flight mode, um, for us, we didn't even realize how much you just. Lean on these old habits even if they aren't serving you well. So like you just gravitate toward your family, not even because it's healthy, um, but just 'cause it's what you've always known.
Melissa: And it's always done. And we were in this weird place of like, okay, we've just started having children. There's super little, um, so we haven't, we hadn't fully transitioned into this. Like we are a family unit. There's us five and like [00:44:00] that's our identity. So all these really tough things happen. We lost Drew's dad and then it was COVID and then we moved back home and then we had twins and then all the hospital stuff with the twins.
Melissa: So I think you go into fight or flight mode and you just identify with these past versions of yourself that you can somewhat make familiar sense of and find some safety in. But it, again, it wasn't serving us really well. So I have noticed a shift to where even in thinking about our own family relations.
Melissa: We're less quick to be like, oh, I need to make this person happier. We have to, you know, do this or do that. And we're more, what a, the, the five of us, this is our family. This is our really establishing, this is our family unit here at home. Um, we love our extended family, but we're going to make this, this marriage, this family unit, our home, um, [00:45:00] our priority and we're gonna invest our focus here and then look outwards.
Melissa: And that's been a positive shift too. I don't know what you think, but
Drew: Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, our ability to better connect. Um, on a, on a level that we just weren't able to in the past has really given us the ability to kind of focus on what is best for our family. Right? And I think Melissa said that pretty well, is that, you know, in the prior, we would always have to make this person happy or this person happy and, you know, it would always drive a
wedge between us or, you know, we, we, we were so blinded by, you know, everybody, uh, you know, pleasing everyone else around us that maybe, maybe our kids suffered a little bit as a result of it.
Drew: We didn't give them the experience that we should have. Um, so. I definitely agree that, you know, our, our ability to kind of [00:46:00] be emotionally connected with one another gives us some com common like commonality in terms of like, what, what, what's our goal by, by doing this trip or you know, what are we striving for, you know, as a family, right at, at all costs to make sure that we, we, we give, we, we have this type of an experience.
Drew: Um, and, and that's, I I would say that that's again, probably an indirect result of, of, of, of, of kind of all this work. But it's a powerful one.
Melissa: It's shared purpose.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, all right, well, let me ask, let me ask you this, Melissa. So a lot of people kind of go into this work with this, with this idea, you know, we've got this more anxious partner, we've got this more avoidant partner with this idea that, you know, the goal here is for the avoidant partner to just be better at helping the anxious partner with their emotions.
Julie: And do you feel now that it's not just about Drew helping [00:47:00] you, but now you're feeling more led in to him and you have more opportunity to also help him? Which I'm, you know, is, is part of what feels really good in the world, isn't just getting all the help but giving and, you know, it's hard to give when we aren't being let in, and it's hard to give when our own nervous systems are blocking that.
Julie: So if, you know, if you just wanna kind of speak to that
Melissa: y Yeah, I think that, um, I think we've, we've talked a lot. About this kind of phenomenon that happened where like when we first got together, there was so much rich, authentic connection between the two of us. Um, and then all these things happen and, and they're tough and you respond how you respond.
Melissa: But it, I guess, drove a wedge between us because of the ways that, you know, over the years, so much defensiveness and so much disconnect and so much of that [00:48:00] armor goes up and that avoidant, um, tendency and, and you, you lack that closeness and that it would make me feel more anxious. But the more that I get an opportunity to, um, connect with him in a vulnerable way, it, it does just create more safety and more.
Melissa: Closeness between the two of us. More strength, more, um, even those things like we just talked about, there's more shared purpose between the two of us. There's more alignment in the things that we want for our life, for our home. Um, it's, it's, we're not operating separately. We're actually operating together.
Melissa: And, and again, I really wanna say to people who are listening, like, I don't wanna give this vision that it's like so perfect in our home because it isn't, we, um, [00:49:00] even just recently we had a negative cycle and it's like we get so frustrated about things and there is disconnect. And I do get super anxious still and he does get closed off still.
Melissa: But it's just the ability, like, so those things are gonna happen, right? And there are gonna be these tough moments, but it's just. There's safety in knowing that you can handle it and that your partner wants to handle it and wants to be connected and close to you. Like there's so much safety in that, and I do get to see this vulnerable side of him, and I think that's been a huge realization that that moves things along quicker for the two of us is, you know, uh, he, I think Drew has realized the more he shuts off, the worse it becomes for me.
Melissa: But the quicker he is to say, Hey, it's this, it's not all these other things that you're thinking, just let me be clear that this is what's going on. [00:50:00] That'll disrupt a cycle almost immediately. So,
Julie: yeah. In the past, it's so easy to see it as well. It's about me and like, we worked with you. I'm not enough.
Julie: And, and I wonder if it, you know, helps also for you to, you know, have you been able to kind of challenge those, sometimes those beliefs, and again, those beliefs never defined you, but it's always easy to go to this place where we're something's not going well and, and start going well, you know, part of me kind of believes that it's not going well 'cause there's just something wrong with me.
Julie: So are you able to, to be, to feel more empowered around that within yourself?
Melissa: I'll be totally honest. That's something that I still, I'm quicker to resolve it. I wouldn't, I still have work to do. Um, when we talk about working on our own selves, I think that's my biggest area of, of need and work. I think it's so [00:51:00] ingrained in my wiring.
Melissa: Um. And I, and I do continue very much to work on it, but I think what's new is that Drew is better able to understand it and more quickly support me, and I'm better able to be aware and recognize it and support myself. And so I think that is like, instead of just drowning in it by myself for an endless amount of time that is, it's, it's much quicker and it's new and it's,
Melissa: there's a lot of growth there.
Julie: That's amazing. So you're a, you're better able to resource yourself, not perfectly. But he's also better at coming in and resourcing you. And in that you are getting a message from him. Look, I love you. I'm here. And then that helps you feel better about you because you're getting messages that you're lovable, which then challenge those, some of those, you know, deep seated beliefs that you had to do all these [00:52:00] things and be all these things and get it all, check all the boxes to be, you know, worthy of that and you don't.
Julie: And, and again, that's, you know, that's that. This is gonna be really great for you guys because you did all this work and you had some time to. Um, practice and see how it all plays out and, and see where your challenges are. And now we go to that. Like I said, you'll get to go do, do, um, another bite at it.
Julie: Take another bite of it, um, and go to that deeper level. How do you feel all said and done? You know, I'm always pitching EFT therapy 'cause that's what I do. I'm obsessed with it. Um, I have everything I, I know to do is because I've put, you know, kind of dedicated my life to mastering this type of work, both with my professional and personal lives.
Julie: And so I'm just curious, what do you think about EFT therapy, emotion, emotion-focused therapy for couples, by the way?
Melissa: Yeah, I, I would recommend it to anybody. I think if [00:53:00] there's somebody out there who is on the fence about it, um, just do it. It's anything that is worth it is going to be hard, but. I mean, any positive, beneficial, successful thing is tough, but it always, um, has this, this amazing result.
Melissa: Um, I would take the hard moments, uh, a hundred times over because the result has just changed our lives. Um, I think that absolutely, yes, a hundred percent, um, worth it. Wonderful.
Drew: Yeah, I would say it's put in the time and the results will compound. Um, and, and you're gonna be so much better for it. And I don't, I don't know if there's much more than that because it's, it's, it's not easy, right?
Drew: I mean, you face some really hard truths as, as, as I think [00:54:00] we both did during our, during our time with you, but. Again, we're, we're, we're, we're seeing such positive results and we've, I mean, it's saved, it's saved us, right? It saved our marriage. It saved our family. Um, and, you know, we feel much better equipped to move forward and, you know, we know not every day is gonna be the perfect day.
Drew: But, you know, we're, we're, I'm, I'm hopeful that, that the results will continue just to, to grow and grow and grow and we'll be stronger for it.
Melissa: And we had tried, what was the other type of therapy? If you said the acronym, I would probably know.
Julie: Cognitive behavioral maybe, or
Melissa: that's it. Okay. So we had done, um, like we had done, I think we only made it like two or three weeks with that.
Melissa: Um, so we had, I think given B before finding you, like we had given that a try and it was super ineffective for us, um, [00:55:00] because really like. This work and I'm, and I'm, maybe if we tried that now, there would be some benefit to it because we're in such a different place. I don't know enough to know, but I think so.
Julie: Yeah. Because you've done the emotional work so that cognitive work is gonna stick. Yeah. Better.
Melissa: Yes.
Melissa: But I think until we had faced this emotional work, nothing was go like this is what was standing in the way and this was the hard, you know, mountain that we needed to climb and, and giant that we needed to face before we could have success in, in other areas.
Melissa: So, yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And that's the tricky part. 'cause all couples are where you are, where, you know, sometimes we go into these, these types of therapies and I don't wanna knock any other type of therapy 'cause they all have their value. And I integrate a lot of different types into the work I do. But it's like.
Julie: You don't have the emotional safety and when you don't have the emotional safety, sometimes that therapy, those more [00:56:00] cognitive based therapies can be ineffective at best and actually kind of make things worse at, you know, worse case scenario because you're trying to bring all of these skills in and then, you know, we talk about these negative cycles and the actual therapy now becomes part of negative cycles because now you're going, well, you're not doing it right.
Julie: Well, you're not doing it right. And that can get really tricky. So, yeah, I think, I think Sue Johnson said once she's the one who created this work is that, um, when, when you give couples these communication skills, they're not gonna be able to use it when they need it because their emotions and nervous systems are going to be, you know, kind of going haywire in there.
Julie: And so it's really hard to put these skills into place unless you're doing the emotional work, um, to create just enough safety in your own bodies and then with each other to really be able to use them.
Melissa: That's so true.
Julie: All right. Well thank you guys so much for coming. I, again, the audience is just gonna be thrilled.
Julie: You, you guys are so [00:57:00] articulate and, and have so much insight into this and, um, I just, again, wanna thank you and yeah.
Melissa: Thank you. I
Melissa: mean, we, you know where to find us anytime if you, if you need anything. We loved it so much.
Julie: Okay, great.
Melissa: Thank you.
Julie: Alright, well thank you guys.
Drew: Thanks.
Julie: Okay. Julie here. So let's just take a breath and sit with that.
Julie: How great was it to hear from Melissa and Drew? So my, my biggest takeaway from our conversation is their honesty about the reality of this. Journey and, you know, they've made incredible progress, but they showed us that healing isn't a one and done event. It's an ongoing practice. And their update is just such a powerful reminder of what we talked about in the intro, that this work takes time and growth is not linear.
Julie: And they're a beautiful example of what it looks like to stay committed to the [00:58:00] process long after the initial crisis has passed. And I, I do consider them at this point a securely attached couple. And here's why. You know, their, their negative cycles are fewer and far, they're between, but. Most importantly, they are repairing and they're growing, and that means that they're able to shift themselves out of negative cycles into positive cycles, and they, they just have built up general trust and, uh, greater capacity to be vulnerable.
Julie: It just goes to show you, you know, partners who have a secure attachment aren't, aren't perfect. They're just willing to grow. So for your reflection this week, I want you to look at your own journey and think about an area in your relationship where you've made real progress. Where do you feel more secure and what old patterns or triggers still show up for you?
Julie: What does it feel like to hold [00:59:00] both of those truths at once? The progress you've made and the pull of the old cycle. So just take a moment to honor the work that you've already done while being gentle with the work that remains the work of a lifetime. So as always, we'd love to hear from your reflection.
Julie: So please just send us a voice note or email at
support@thesecurerelationship.com. Leave a comment or question on Spotify or please review on Apple Podcast. You know, it really, these reviews really help me, uh, get the word out to couples who are really. Need and if we end up getting a voice note from you, we might feature you in a future episode.
Julie: And as a quick reminder, next week we're going to be returning to our sessions with Bethany and Brian. So we'll thank you for joining me today. And again to Melissa and Drew, thank you for sharing your journey with us. And so, until next time, take care of yourself and of your [01:00:00] relationships.
