Session 7: The Original Wounds of the Negative Cycle

Oct 14

In this episode

Julie Menanno goes back to the beginning to uncover the origin stories of Bethany and Brian's core wounds—the first major hurts that set their painful cycle in motion. We see how their survival strategies collide: Bethany uses logic and explanation to stay safe, while Brian uses anger to be heard. Healing begins not with tallying wrongs, but with learning to see each other's wounds and to speak from the pain instead of the defense.

Key takeaways

Recurring fights often trace back to origin wounds—the first major hurts in each partner's story.
Bethany uses logic and explanation to stay safe from overwhelming emotion.
Brian uses anger as a desperate attempt to be seen and heard.
Healing doesn't start with tallying wrongs or proving who was right.
The turning point is learning to speak from the pain instead of the defense.

Session 7: The Original Wounds of the Negative Cycle
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno, licensed marriage and family therapist and author of Secure Love. And this session is a big one. It's raw, it's revealing, and for anyone wondering why they keep hitting the same wall in their relationship, this episode is really essential listening.
Julie: So you might've noticed that we didn't start this season at the beginning of their, you know, relationship with the first major hurts, I should say. Um, and that's intentional. You know, I'm, I'm making sure that my timing's good here. The work isn't really about chronologically recounting a relationship's history.
Julie: It's about building the skills too. Navigate the present, but sometimes the past is so alive in the room that it has to be spoken. So today is one of those times where we're finally going to hear the origin stories of their deepest wounds. I've known about these attachment wounds from my [00:01:00] initial individual sessions with them.
Julie: Bethany and Brian still aren't ready to talk about these wounds on their own with each other without me there to provide structure. They'll just go into negative cycles, which it actually makes the wounds even worse. They do, however, now have more capacity to hold their triggers as the other one speaks, they're interrupting less.
Julie: And you know, these wounds are crying for relief, which is what unhealed wounds do. And. This week they started to cry even louder. So we're going to go ahead and get this conversation started. So, but before we get to the details, I just want to once again put this out there that some of you will listen and have a lot of judgment about the objectively destructive behaviors we're going to hear about.
Julie: And it is true that some behaviors are more destructive than others. There's no doubt about it. I urge you though, to just not get stuck in this behavior layer. And I don't mean ignore the behavior layer, it's as real as [00:02:00] anything else here. But the problem is, is not getting stuck there. So for this episode, we need to utilize the emotional need lens because the behaviors that we're going to hear about today are big and.
Julie: For lack of better word, big and ugly, and I'd like for you to just spend all the time you need, judging the behaviors that we're going to hear about. Go ahead and get all the judgment out of your system. You have my permission
because these behaviors are worthy of judgment. They aren't good. Not bonding with your baby and leaving your wife alone.
Julie: Postpartum is not good. Financial infidelity is not good. Being mean and spiteful is not good. You know, you can even categorize their behaviors if, and use labels that fit for you, if it helps you make more sense of things. There's always value in making sense to the degree that it leads to healing, but after you're done judging and categorizing, [00:03:00] it's time to put the judgment to the side.
Julie: Not get rid of it, but put it to the side and join me in trying to better understand the people behind the behaviors. People who are not bad. Just like you aren't bad in spite of your failings and mismanagement of your feelings, we all fail and do bad things when our needs aren't met, and we just don't know yet how to get them met.
Julie: So the behaviors that you're going to hear today are coming from people who are desperately trying to get emotional needs met, that they just haven't learned how to get met in any other way. They aren't even super clear about what the emotions are to begin with, much less about what needs to happen to get them met.
Julie: So, you know, my job isn't to stay in judgment. My job is to help the humans behind the behaviors understand what's said behind behaviors trying to do in service of changing the behavior. So as a couple's therapist, you know, I'm in the business of behavior change. That's what I do. I create behavior change and as I've said [00:04:00] before, um, the type of work I do, EFT, it doesn't get behavior change by telling people what to do differently or how bad they are and leave it at that.
Julie: That approach either doesn't work at all or only works temporarily because it doesn't address the root problem. Instead, we create behavior change by helping people see what their bad behavior is trying to do, so we can give them better options to achieve the results that they're hoping for, instead of just endlessly spinning their wheels, not achieving the results they're hoping for.
Julie: A lot of times people, when they're behaving badly, they, they have no idea what they're actually hoping for. They just want know they're trying to change their partner or feel better. Um, so research on EFT and I mean quality, EFT, the skill level of the therapist using the tool does matter, but research on EFT is not just that it's effective when the therapy ends, but that its effectiveness holds years later.[00:05:00]
Julie: The, the statistics are that 90% of couples will improve and 75% will. Heal and go from an insecure attachment with each other to a secure attachment. And, you know, EFT has the most research backing of any type of couple's work. But again, the skill level of the therapist does matter because it's also the most difficult type of couple's work, and it takes a massive amount of commitment and training to do it well.
Julie: So if you are looking for your own EFT therapist, you know, really do some research on how much experience they have because obvi obviously with, you know, like everything else, experience, you know, matters. So, I'd never come across a relationship behavior in my work that wasn't trying to get an emotional need met, no matter how good the behavior, no matter how bad the behavior.
Julie: All the behavior is trying to get an emotional need met. Humans are so driven by emotional needs that they'll resort to just about anything, to feel first emotionally safe and comfortable, and second [00:06:00] emotionally close to others. It's, it's as strong of a desire as the need to eat, and no matter how disconnected a person is from their emotional needs, they still have them and they're still driven by them.
Julie: And no matter how rational and intellectual a person is, the reason and intellectualizing their doing are still a means to met emotional needs. You know, the, the most rational thing in existence, let's say math or science in and of themselves, aren't so emotional that humans study them and do them, not randomly, they study them and they do them because it satisfies them to do so.
Julie: Or the results of doing it satisfies them. And, and satisfaction is a feeling. So if someone is, is staying really stoic and reasonable during an argument, they're doing so because maybe one thing is they don't like the feeling of chaos and uncontained conflict, so they're trying to avoid a feeling so they don't have to feel bad, [00:07:00] and they, the opposite of bad is better.
Julie: So just as much, and, and this is true for them just as much as the person who is getting more emotionally escalated doesn't like the feeling of being unheard. They both want to feel emotionally safe, but they just show up very differently on the surface. Okay. That said, today we're going to get grounded in their stories around their attachment wounds.
Julie: They both have them attachment wounds, sometimes called attachment injuries are. Major experiences of betrayal and breaches of trust, they are still very much alive in the relationship and until they're healed, will continue to
create problems no matter how much health we bring to the relationship in the present until these wounds are healed, trust and closeness, it just can't be fully restored.
Julie: And all I'm really going to do is be a secure base for each them of them today as they share, I'll be curious. I'll reflect their experiences and [00:08:00] validate their feelings around their experiences, because today I'm just here. To get familiar with these wounds, to build safety around the conversation, and we're going to need to dive more deeply into it later so we can eventually get the ball rolling on healing the wounds and doing what we need to do to prevent more wounds from happening in the future.
Julie: Most couples do come to me with wounds, and you have to be very, very careful because if you get. Too far out in front of them when the couple ha doesn't have the communication skills. Even around the smaller issues, you really do, like I said earlier, you really do risk making them worse. But for whatever reasons, these wounds have been kind of dormant up until now and have decided to start crying louder for healing.
Julie: So the first thing for me is just to give space to the crying and go from there and like I said, as a secure base until they can be each other's secure base around these topics. Alright, now we're getting into one of my favorite parts of the show, which is hearing directly from you, [00:09:00] the listeners. Um, also just a quick reminder, while we've really been loving all the emails, seriously keep them coming.
Julie: We'd really love to hear your voices too. So, um, if you wanna send a voice note. Just try to keep it under 90 seconds so we can feature it right here on the show. Okay. Let's kick things off with Jessica who wrote in to share her thoughts. So Jessica says, hi. I'm listening to season two, episode six and have an observation question.
Julie: I typically relate to the anxious partner and found myself relating to Melissa last season. This season I find myself very frustrated with Brian and the way he interacts with Bethany, who has been indicated as the more avoidant partner. It makes me question two things. Does the intersection of gender and attachment styles change the way each attachment styles approaches the negative cycle?
Julie: For example, the protest behavior of an anxious woman being different than an anxious male. Let me go ahead and answer that. I do believe so. Yeah, I think that of avoidant females [00:10:00] can look very anxious on the surface
and anxious males can have more of a distancing from their emotions than anxious females.
Julie: So yeah, truth to that, not all the time, but definitely true. Um, let me go on here. Um, so two, how does gender influence how each attachment style is perceived by others? It was impossible to get through the episode on 50 50 without Brian articulating feeling taken advantage of for being the only one mowing the lawn without reconciling the dynamic that Bethany did most of the child rearing, which is stereotypical in a heteronormative relationship.
Julie: Well, they are in a heteronormative relationship, so their behaviors and the way they structure their life is going to be heteronormative. Uh, if we really just look underneath the behavior and we. Clarify why he is the anxious one, and she's the avoidant one is because he's in the blame role, um, and he's blaming her for taking advantage.
Julie: [00:11:00] He's blaming her for all, all the things that she's doing wrong, and she is playing more of the defense role. And that doesn't mean that there aren't times where she's in blame and there aren't times that he's in defense. But predominantly we're just gonna hear Brian doing the complaining and Bethany doing the defending.
Julie: And I need to work with the avoidant partner first to get them emotionally engaged, which is why you're gonna see me doing a little more work with Bethany as we go forward, because they need to be emotionally engaged. You know, if the anxious partner is going to get vulnerable later and get out of blame, we need the avoidant partner to be able to hold them.
Julie: Um, I do wanna say about Brian. I mean, you know, Brian is. Is very anxious. He's based on behavior and his real difficulty seeing his own role, like, you know, it's pretty big. His, his difficulty seeing his role and we will really head on address that later. And it's gonna, there's gonna be some assertiveness from me around that.
Julie: I'm not ready to go there yet. It, it's [00:12:00] still kind of me getting some money in the bank with them and letting them know, Hey, I'm safe. I'm here to help you. I'm not just gonna lead in with, you know, blame. And, but his, his behavior is objectively, I, I would say objectively worse as far as the level of destruction and the way the, the things he's saying.
Julie: And, um, he, he probably, you know, he kind of hovers on that line between. Really kind of extreme anxious attachment and disorganized
attachment. Um, not enough for me to call him a disorganized attachment because there are times when he can really step in and have a lot of insight into himself and really kind of settle in.
Julie: Um, for sure. He's objectively, his behaviors are objectively worse and more damaging to the relationship. But again, we just can't stay stuck in the behavior because both of them, communication wise are contributing to the problem. Behaviorally, one partner sometimes does show up in a worst way, but [00:13:00] they're both still at the end of the day doing behaviors that are getting in the way of behavior change.
Julie: And so I've gotta figure out how are you, if I, if I just get stuck on, well, your behavior is worse, or whose behavior is worse, first of all, that game will never end because, you know, then I'll be in the role of the judge and that doesn't work. So I've gotta figure out, look, how are you both behaving regardless of who's worse.
Julie: In ways that keep the cycle going and whatever that is, I've gotta shift it. And if a couple comes to me and one is actually abusive in the sense that there's a power. Imbalance or one is just get, especially getting abusive when the first partner is being vulnerable, then there's, that's a different story.
Julie: Um, so anyway, now let's hear from Carly who also sent in an email. So Carly says, hi there. I listened to the first season of the podcast and I'm listening now to the second season, and my boyfriend and I have been dating for nearly two [00:14:00] years and official for about a year and eight months. We do not live together yet, and I don't have any of the added stressors that the couple.
Julie: In this season feature do. But by listening and applying what I've been learning, it's allowed me to have a more empathetic and patient experience with him. I would say I'm the partner with a lot more of the protesting behaviors. A lot of that protest for me is driven by being afraid that when my needs don't get met, it's because I'm not good enough, don't deserve to have those needs met.
Julie: And it's only been recently that alternatively my boyfriend and I have been able to try and see each other through different perspectives. He really tried to connect with me recently, he texted me even when I want my alone
time, I think about you and am excited to be with you. Oh, it's so sweet. Um, this made me cry.
Julie: I thought anyone could make me. If, if anyone could make me feel as seen, um, as this, I can really see this becoming a pattern. Absolutely those
small [00:15:00] little messages like that there, it, it builds, it builds safety. And when you feel safe, you're going to show up better too. Um, I know it's so early in the relationship, but I'm hoping that by trying to establish these communication patterns and methods to identify and validate needs, we will be able to take on future dynamic changes and have the tools readily available to continue.
Julie: Meeting each other's needs. So thank you so much for that. That's beautiful. You're doing such a great job and there's just no reason to think, I mean, clearly both of you are open and willing to do the work and it's, that's all you need is you need to know the skills and you need the openness and willingness to trial and error and just jump in and, um, you know, grow as you go.
Julie: Alright, um, finally, let's go to Sean. It's always, I just wanna add this, you know, it's always great to hear from the men who listen. I know the majority of the audience is women, but guys, we see you, we hear you and we want you in this conversation too. So, Sean, thank you [00:16:00] for writing in and he says in the latest episode, you told Brian and Bethany that you wanted them, them to learn to sit with their experiences rather than getting stuck in the back and forth just before that, when they were stuck in the back and forth.
Julie: I felt anxiety rising me. It was the same anxiety I had when I was trying to save my marriage. That feeling of I need you to hear what I'm going through, coupled with the fear that what I was feeling was just going to be ignored by my wife. And it was such a strong feeling that I just had a hard time hearing what my wife was sharing.
Julie: And yes, that if you're afraid that you're not going to be heard, that fear is going to block you from being open. So on one hand, we've got to be able to put that fear to the side and, and stay in there. You know, we don't, we don't learn to trust if we're not shifting our behaviors. But on the other hand, the more you
guys experience taking these turns, hearing each other, the more you [00:17:00] trust it and the easier it is to lean in and hear your partner.
Julie: You know, it doesn't, at that point, it's not really waiting. It's just, you know, letting the process unfold because you trust and in the moment, this is really hard, but I, I'm going back to Sean here in the moment. This is really hard. But I know that me wanting to share my own experience is a better way to navigate this.
Julie: Because when both people try to be heard at the same time, neither one ends up being heard and it's so true. Um, so thank you Sean, for that input and big thanks and shout out to everyone who shared their thoughts this week. Um, I, I, again, I love hearing how the podcast is landing with you and how it's challenging your thinking and really helping you reflect on your current or even your past relationships or even just making you feel seen.
Julie: Alright, now let's get into our session with Bethany and Brian. I think Bethany will just kind of start with you and just, I think, you know, we had communicated through email and you said that you had. [00:18:00] Quite a bit to say, quite bit. So I wanna give you that space, but also know that, you know, I, I might need to kind of move us in a, in a direction with that, if you don't mind.
Bethany: Yeah. I just felt really lost after a couple of days. Um, you know, we had a, I was here staying with him, um, and, and our daughter for a few days, and we switched like his sole custody day to, to Wednesday. And, and, which was fine. I didn't really wanna leave her, but I understand the reason that he wanted some alone time with her too.
Bethany: And then I, you know, I made them dinner, I left and then I didn't hear from him the rest of the night really. And then. I go to pick her up Friday, Thursday morning. And I thought I was doing a solid by saying like, I'll come and, you know, I'll just come to the house and pick her up so you don't have to put her in the car.
Bethany: I was already out that morning and by, and he was like, no, just [00:19:00] meet me. And then I met him and I was like, what's wrong with you? And he was like, you're aggravating. And I didn't even understand what I did that was aggravating. So I was like, that set me off. Right. And then he calls later, we call to talk about it and he goes on, I felt like for like 50 minutes we were on the phone for 50 minutes and, and you called me, you called me a sadistic fuck.
Bethany: Which really set me off, um, because I don't think I'm sadistic. Um, and, and just like, I just feel like he thinks everything I'm doing is like out to get him and is like evil intent and I'm not an evil person and that's very frustrating to work through. And then I'll just try to skip to, you know, we, I tried to plan a nice date night for us.
Bethany: He seemed like he didn't care whether we went one way or the other, which I feel like it's, it would've been our only second date since what
September, where it was just he and I, because a lot of times we're sharing the time with our daughter. So, you know, it was [00:20:00] my weekend with our daughter, my parents, I asked them to watch her overnight so that we could go on a date.
Bethany: I just wasn't feeling a good vibe. It was kind of like, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. And then we get back here and it was just quiet. He was just quiet. I thought he just wanted to watch the game. But apparently, you know, he had said, well, let me, let me chime in real quick that I think I had told you, and maybe he had told you two in our one-on-ones that when we were separated, like he ended up having like a, a relation, not a relationship, but like a, I don't know, I guess a one night stand with somebody.
Bethany: And then I had, I wouldn't even call it a relationship, but like I reconnected with one of my exes from like 15 years ago. Okay. So we both know that full disclosure. And so he's been real hung up on the fact that that particular night that I went out with that gentleman, I gave him my undivided attention where I wasn't FaceTiming our daughter.
Bethany: I wasn't, you know, calling to check in. Did she make it to bed? I wasn't watching a baby monitor on my phone. And I got a [00:21:00] hotel with this person. And so that was just like, I, I gave him my undivided attention, and that's what Brian has wanted for so, so long. And so that sparked conversation Saturday night about how he wanted my undivided attention.
Bethany: And I was like, I did that. Right? Like, and then there's the financial, like I, I paid for dinner, I drove, and I, I gave him my undivided attention, but it still didn't feel like it was good enough. And he was like, we're just here sitting
on our couch, and like, it's just boring. And I'm like, I don't know. I thought I checked all of the boxes for you to have a good date night.
Bethany: And it wasn't. And he felt like I didn't
Julie: wait. I'm, I'm a little bit confused.
Julie: Um, yeah. How, how did we go from date night? To
Julie: back to this, these relationships you had.
Bethany: 'cause because I said you had been asking for undivided attention and he, the ex that I had a fling with when we were separated, got my undivided attention right on the night that, that we hooked up.
Bethany: And [00:22:00] he went back to that place of, that person can get your undivided attention and you can want them a lot, but you don't want me like that, or I can't get my, I can't get your undivided attention. And so, so he's saying this, this, this weekend. Yes. This weekend. But I felt like I did all of those things. I planned the date, took care of everything, and then here we are.
Bethany: And then it, it just, it just tanked. And he just started blaming me for all the things that went wrong in our marriage. And I told him, yeah, he didn't get undivided attention. Or any attention really when he wanted it, because of
all of the things that I felt and I saw, or his lack of interaction with our, our newborn, how there wasn't any interaction with her.
Bethany: So like there was, I didn't take, there, there was no emotional [00:23:00] connection for me to even wanna connect with him during postpartum because there was no connection from my perspective between him and our baby. And that like, wore me down to a point where I didn't care to spend time with him. Like if he didn't care to give our daughter the time of day or talk to her infant or not, or acknowledge her presence or, you know, make us not be present, um, in the same space as him.
Bethany: Why would I want to do that? And so he was like, so you on purpose, didn't you purposefully like, shut me out? And so in turn, that led to I sabotaged our marriage. Okay? Then he goes down a rabbit hole of like, I sabotaged a trip we were supposed to go on and all this stuff. And it [00:24:00] just, it was just
an awful, awful night.
Julie: Okay? So the, the cycle
Julie: is, is that you, you go back right to this period of time when your baby was a newborn and you're just feeling really alone with it all. And you're getting messages from him somehow that he's not really wanting to have any involvement or connect with her. And that's devastating.
Julie: And so the way your body handled that devastation is you just detached. That's how you survived it is you just detached. And then now we're in this place where, you know, no matter you're trying to get back that attachment or you have gotten back the attachment and yet you can't reach him consistently because it feels like no matter what you do, the past just keeps coming back to haunt you.
Julie: And you have all these things Yes. Kind of brought up [00:25:00] and thrown back in your face. But you're saying, look, I had re good reasons to go to
that detached place anyway. And I know there's other stuff that keeps coming back too. Right. But yes. Okay. But you're saying, look, this doesn't always feel fair because anything I've done, you know, either I've, you know, profusely apologized for, or I had my own reasons for kind of going into that place.
Bethany: Yes.
Julie: The detachment place. Okay.
Bethany: Yeah. And
Bethany: I, I just wonder like. Can we ever get through this? Can we ever get, and he even said, I don't know if I will ever, or can ever get past any of this. And some of the things, and I recognize and I've owned, um, you know, the, the financial piece that bothers him so much from, you know, nine years ago or,
Julie: and let's just, just go ahead and, and
Julie: remind me about the details around that.
Bethany: Yeah. Well there's a couple things from, like, before we got [00:26:00] married, there were two people that I casually dated before. Like he and I contacted each other and then I kind of fell off and we didn't contact each other or we, we weren't, not that we were dating, we were just like communicating through Facebook, I think at that point.
Bethany: And just the timing was off. And he lived in one place. I lived in another and I was fixed up with people in between talking to him and actually. Connecting with him to like have the point of a date. And those people didn't really mean much to me. They weren't long relationships. I wouldn't even call them like boyfriends.
Bethany: Right. It was like they were somewhat short lived. And it, I just, he was like, why didn't we date sooner? And I was like, I don't know, just like circumstances, life, whatever. And I didn't say that I was date, I had dated this person or that person because they were so insignificant to me. Mm-hmm. And then like we were having another conversation, I don't even know after, but [00:27:00] married
Julie: these
Julie: events, these, this situation keeps coming back up.
Bethany: Yes, yes. And then the financial,
Julie: but you're
Julie: saying is,
Julie: look, Brian and I were not committed. And on top of that. I wasn't really even committed to these other guys. But still the narrative is like, somehow you cheated on him, or
Bethany: it wasn't even that We weren't even talking at that time. Julie: No, I'm saying the narrative from that.
Bethany: The narrative is that he's third fiddle, that's what he says. Okay. He feels like he was the third option on a list of options that weren't even existing.
Julie: . But just, just speaking for you, it's, it's like, whoa, wait a minute. That doesn't feel right. That doesn't feel like I'm being understood. That doesn't feel super fair.
Bethany: Right.
Julie: Because you have, you know, you weren't committed with him and then these two weren't really serious anyway. Right. Okay. So that's one of, one of the issues. And then that keeps popping back up. And then we have this other guy that you were having some sort of inner communication with when you guys split up.
Julie: And then [00:28:00] tell me more about the financial piece and w would you say those are the three?
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The, the financial piece is. Um, I sold a condo, my condo, um, and my proceeds for it, we had agreed that we would keep them. And then I spent quite a bit, I ended up spending quite a bit of them on our wedding.
Bethany: Um, and so when we went to sign the prenup, not all of the money that I had initially kept or received from the house sale was obviously on the, on the assets and liabilities of the prenup. So there was that. And then we had never really talked about like how much debt we were in before we were married.
Bethany: It wasn't like I have this much or I have that much. So like when he saw it, what I, when he like saw it in writing, I had school loans, I had a personal loan, I had a car loan, and I had a couple credit cards. So it was more debt than I think he expected. [00:29:00] Um, and so those were the, the two big things. And we got out of debt.
Bethany: And then a couple years after that, like. There were, I don't know, $4,000 that like I had on a credit card that he, um, that
Brian: didn't know
Brian: about.
Bethany: Didn't know about. Right.
Julie: Alright, let's just pause on this because what Bethany is describing is the foundational rupture in Brian's trust. For an anxious partner like Brian's, safety is paramount.
Julie: To be blindsided by this level of secrecy, especially at a moment of ultimate commitment, like a wedding, is not just a financial issue, it's a catastrophic attachment injury. It sends the message, you are not safe with me. I am not looking out for you. This is the moment where Brian's nervous system initially learned that he had to be constantly guarded and alert with Bethany and.
Julie: It's the wound [00:30:00] that gets reactivated every time he perceives dishonesty or feels that his needs are being ignored. So I want you to reflect for a moment, what does betrayal feel like in your body? Is it a sharp shock, a cold dread, a hot anger? Understanding our physical response to a breach of trust helps us understand why these wounds can be so difficult to heal.
Julie: Alright, and so these three things it feels like to you, like no matter how much progress we make here and now in the present, these three things just keep coming back. Keep coming back every day. Okay. And you're starting to lose hope that we'll ever actually get through this. You're not really sure what we need to do to heal some of this or heal it
Julie: and,
Bethany: yeah.
Bethany: Yeah. I mean, I just think like I get, I've owned it, I've apologized, I have fixed things. And no [00:31:00] matter what, anytime this comes up, it's just like, I'm, we're here like nine years later and like, it's for me. And, and I, I
tell him like, it's just exhausting to hear about it. And I know that makes it seem like it's insignificant to me and it isn't, but it's like, how long, how, like, I don't wanna spend the rest of my life with him hearing about this.
Bethany: I don't, I don't wanna have our 50th wedding anniversary and have him come up.
Julie: Could you spend, could you spend the rest of your life hearing about this?
Bethany: I
Bethany: don't, I don't want to. No.
Julie: Okay. So I just want you to say that out loud. Like, I, I couldn't spend the rest of my life in this place where these things keep coming back at me.
Julie: It's not workable for me.
Bethany: I just don't, I don't think it's fair. I don't think, it just sounds exhausting. It sounds exhausting to constantly hear about all of these.
Julie: Okay. So can we, can
Julie: we agree then? That this stuff has to get worked [00:32:00] through, because if it doesn't get worked through, we don't get some healing around it, then it'll just keep popping back up over and over and over in these negative cycles.
Julie: It'll never go away. You'll never escape it. Yeah. And that would be intolerable. And so I just wanna get to a place where we can all agree that, you know, if the, the, the therapy is going to keep you guys together, which, you know, that's still undetermined, but that has a piece of, that has to be that this is healed because otherwise the relationship can't really go forward.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And that's my opinion is that it won't be able to go forward with closeness and what you're both hoping for. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So do you
mind then, if, if, you know, I, I wanna make sure that you feel understood, so let me kind of. Summarize what you told me, and then I'll, if, if you're okay with that, I wanna go over to him and kind of understand more about what, what might be blocking him from being able to heal here.
Julie: [00:33:00] So you went out, something happened over the weekend, you planned a date that did not go well. And you know, the, the theme was, is that this stuff kept coming back at you. It was like, well now you're not giving him enough attention. And that relates to this one guy that you gave attention to.
Bethany: Yes.
Julie: And so he's being distant.
Julie: So again, here comes the past, haunting us in the present. Bethany: Right
Julie: and how are we supposed to get through this if we're s you know, we need to have these ex, these positive experiences with spending time together, but how on earth are we supposed to do that when we've always got this elephant in the room?
Bethany: Right.
Bethany: And he has said,
Julie: that's not really an
Julie: elephant 'cause you're talking about it, but go ahead.
Bethany: Right, right. And, and he had said, you know, when we were still together, you know, when you leave here, I guarantee you that the first person that gives you any attention, you'll just give them everything that I've been begging for for so long.
Bethany: Um, and he has said that, [00:34:00] and he was like, I told you that was gonna be true. I told you that was gonna be true. You know, you had all that attention. I was giving you that attention from me. But it wasn't, I didn't, I didn't feel, it wasn't just about the attention. It, it, it was, it didn't feel that what he was giving me at that time or giving me and the baby at that time was what I needed at that time.
Julie: Okay. So again, it's like your reasons for detaching didn't just come from nowhere.
Bethany: Correct.
Julie: Okay. And so it doesn't really feel fair when you're getting blamed for, uh, handling your feelings in a way that you're trying to get your needs met.
Bethany: Right, right. And I,
Bethany: I feel like it was like, I, I had to pick between taking care of the baby and taking care of his needs.
Bethany: Like when I, that's, that's how I felt. That's how I felt, and that's [00:35:00] how I still feel now. Like, you know, and, and he has said, you know, I have to prove to him that I'm in this undoubtedly, and he's not gonna be number two anymore. And I'm like, how does that work moving forward? Like, does that mean, you know, I have to be in fear of another negative cycle if our baby's sick and I have to take care of her, or, you know.
Julie: Well, that's what
Julie: I was gonna, I was gonna say too, it sounds like you also have unresolved wounds around this, the wounds that created your detachment and, okay. Yeah. Those, that time period when the baby was born. And even, you know, the experience, the event of giving birth was also a major wound for you.
Julie: .
Julie: Do you wanna go ahead and tell me those details? Just so, Bethany: yeah.
Bethany: Um, so I went into labor three weeks early. Um, he had had a pretty significant, um, I, what is the word I wanna use? Setback [00:36:00] with, with the business? The, with the, with the business. Very significant. I don't even wanna say pretty big. I wanna say very significant setback with the business.
Julie: Okay. So he's not in a good place and then you go into it,
Bethany: he's not in a good place. Right. Okay. So understandably so. I get that. Right. So he went out a little bit after work, had some drinks. We had, like, we
were eating dinner, having a decent night. He had been drinking my water broke and. I had to drive myself to the hospital, um, you know, wrapped in a towel.
Bethany: Fortunately I wasn't in any pain, but I had to drive myself. And then we pull in the parking garage because he been, because he had been drinking, because he had been drinking, pull into the parking garage and he didn't wanna get out of the car. Like he was like, I'll carry your bags, but I'm gonna come back to the car.
Bethany: And I recognized that he has like a fear of hospitals and all medical things and it just grosses him out. I get it. But I was like, are you kidding me? You're gonna just take me in and drop my bags and come back to the [00:37:00] car? Like, so that was that. And then I knew, I really knew going again, that he likely wouldn't be able to be there for the birth of our daughter, knowing that he wouldn't be able to tolerate it probably without passing out.
Bethany: So, you know, I'm like up all night. This was like, I went into labor at like nine 30 or something. So I'm up most of the night. He's passed out on the crappy couch. And you know, when it came time to. To push. And, and I remember like, they bring out all this stuff, the scissors, knives, whatever, and he's like, cringing now.
Bethany: He was like, I gotta go, I gotta go. Sorry. And so my mom and my sister had to, had to be there and that, and that was fine, right? I was fine with that because I would rather him not pass out on the floor in the middle of me trying to give birth. Um, and I understand that it was traumatic for him. He said afterwards, like listening to me [00:38:00] scream when he was like in the hallway with my dad and I pushed for three hours.
Bethany: Three hours. Um, and then, and then I don't even think he held her after she was born. I think he looked at her in like the bassinet and like I was holding her and he came in and he was like, all right, I'm gonna go. I don't have any pictures of, of him holding her after she was born. He left because I know that the dog was home or the dog had been with a sitter.
Bethany: Like I have pictures of me holding her. My mom, my sister, my dad, and none of him.
Julie: Okay. Julie, here. So the image Bethany just painted of having no photos of Brian holding their baby is heartbreaking, and it's a perfect metaphor for the emotional wound that she sustained. This is the moment her nervous system learned that in her time of greatest need, she would be left alone For a
[00:39:00] more avoidant partner who already struggles to ask for help, this experience of abandonment is deeply traumatizing.
Julie: It forced her into a state of survival where her only option was to shut down emotionally and become entirely self-sufficient just to care for her child. This is the root of detachment that Brian struggles with today. It began as a necessary shield to protect her from unbearable pain. Alright, so take a moment to think about a time where you felt profoundly alone.
Julie: When you expected support, how did you cope? Did you retreat into yourself? Did you decide in that moment that it was just safer to rely only on yourself? That is a protective strategy, and it is born from deep hurt and I can just feel the pain right now. And just that this brings up for you.
Bethany: And then she had to go to the NICU for nothing [00:40:00] serious.
Bethany: Nothing serious. It was just a precaution. Um, and so that was like, you know, that was, I wouldn't say it was traumatic for me because I knew it was nothing serious. It was just precautionary. Um, but that was like. That was hard. Like I didn't get to bring my baby home. I got to come home, sleep in my bed, which in some ways I think was good because I did leave her at night because I knew that I needed to, to get my rest, and I knew that I wouldn't probably get the best rest in hospital.
Bethany: So I was, I made the decision to come home every night, but I would go there for, you know, like 12 to 14 hours a day. And he came to visit I think once or twice, but he had to be here to take care of his older daughter, which again, was fine. Right. I knew that he doesn't, like, I know that he doesn't like hospitals and that was fine, but it was like, you know, a week it was, she was in there a week and then it was, and then we came home and, [00:41:00] you know, he had to go back to work on Monday, like his week off was taking care of his older daughter while our baby was in the nicu.
Bethany: And that was fine. We, we divided and conquered, but like he went back to work. I was here by myself, which was probably better, but it was, I don't, I can't describe it. And then like, because he was in such a bad place, you know, he didn't really want to have anything to do with the baby. I'm not saying, you know, just like I would tell him to talk to her and he'd be like, what do I say?
Bethany: She can't understand. He would walk, like if she was in a swing or in a bassinet, he would walk by and like, not touch her, not kiss her. I had to like,
you know, he never really willingly picked her up. And, and I know that he also isn't necessarily a baby person, but like, I'm not asking you to hold her all the time.
Bethany: I'm just asking you to acknowledge her presence. And at the time, even the other day, I brought this up and I was like, you walked by her. Like she was in her swing and he was like, she had a swing. I don't remember a [00:42:00] swing. So like, it's just that stuff.
Julie: Okay. All right. And so there's just so much pain in this place that you're talking about right now.
Julie: There's a lot of betrayal in in there.
Bethany: Yeah. I don't
Bethany: think he understands how much
Bethany: that affected so many things, and I don't know what I expected. I mean, I knew that he didn't want another baby. I knew that, but he said he wanted to do it for me because I wanted one. But know we had the 9-year-old at the time, and that was like, that's a big
Bethany: setback.
Julie: And
Julie: you
Julie: can, you can come up with,
Julie: you know, a lot of, a lot of good reasons why it, it ended up like this, why you guys found yourself in this place. Right. You know, you say, look, he has a fear of blood and hospital stuff. And then you say, look, I know he's not a baby person. And I think what we have talked about before when I met with you individually is that he shows up now.
Julie: Right, right. And so, but at the time you [00:43:00] didn't really know that, and so you're just kind of observing all this as this, you know, you're connected to the baby and you want, of course you want. Her dad to be connected to her and also now you're alone in all of this.
Bethany: Yeah. And I couldn't, I couldn't leave the house because we Bethany: had a puppy and the dog had to go again.
Julie: You can
Julie: have, again,
Julie: you can, you can name all these good reasons. Yeah. Why life happens and he's in his own bad spot. But at the end of the day, there's just a lot of pain around this. There's so much pain and it's in you and it's not out of you and it's not healed. And you know, I know in this relationship you're playing defense a lot, right?
Julie: You're kind of fielding his complaints about you. Do you, when do you kind of put words to the fact that you've got these wounds to I've tried. Okay. So you have tried and then what are you met with in this cycle? Right.
Bethany: Um,
Bethany: I met with, I [00:44:00] created a segregation,
Bethany: um. And the, the, the house became me and the baby and him and the older daughter.
Bethany: Um, you know, I didn't realize how much work he was picking up because I wasn't doing enough. Um,
Julie: so when
Julie: you try to reach
Julie: and you try to get some comfort around this and some healing around this, then you're just met with blame.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. Like, it's your fault. It's your fault. And what's that like?
Bethany: It's hard because I don't think he understands how much that hurt me, how much that hurt me. And I, I, I guess I truly thought that maybe seeing our
baby's face would, would make him soften because it was like made out of love. You know, a baby who was made out of love, out of a marriage, not out of wedlock in a different situation than, you know, his older daughter.
Bethany: But it, but it didn't, [00:45:00] and I just felt like, is this the way that this is gonna be forever? Like, is he never gonna bond with this baby? And you know, I had a, I had a dad who stayed home with me starting at six weeks when my mom went back to work. It's just circumstances played out where I had that, and I'm not asking for him to be my dad.
Bethany: I fully knew that was not gonna be the case.
Julie: I mean, even,
Julie: even, let's just say you had the,
Julie: you know, worst relationship with your dad. Possible. Like everybody wants the father of their child to bond with the child. That's just a normal human thing. Right?
Bethany: Right, right.
Julie: But, but then on top of that, you did actually have a very good relationship with your dad, and that was your experience.
Julie: And of course you would want that to be duplicated.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And so again, we have all these good reasons why this period of time you're just feeling completely alone with it all. And that takes you to a really bad place when you start remembering all of that. Yeah. And so when he brings up [00:46:00] his pains, then you're over here going, wait, what about my pains that were, you know, kind of partially contributed to all the stuff that he's upset about?
Julie: Some of, I mean, I know the financial stuff is a different topic, but Bethany: Right, right.
Julie: And so then you're over here scrambling around trying to heal him, but you're also raw yourself. Yeah. And just like we, you know, we need to make
this agreement that, you know, we are able to bring some healing to his wounds. I wonder if we can also make an agreement that we need to create some willing healing for your wounds.
Bethany: Yeah, absolutely.
Julie: Okay.
Bethany: Absolutely.
Julie: And if you didn't get that healing, I'm assuming it would be almost impossible for you to ever fully feel close. And trust because you're, you're also kind of walking around waiting for the next moment, or a afraid of the next moment where you might see an interaction with him and the baby, and that's gonna trigger all this stuff.
Bethany: [00:47:00] Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. And so there's a lot of mistrust built up here.
Bethany: Yeah. And I, and I, I, I really feel that if some of those things had existed, we probably wouldn't be where we are. If what things had existed, like a, a, a bonding with the baby or an understanding of what it was like to be stuck at home in the winter with a, a, a, a puppy and a newborn, and not being able to leave the house and, you know.
Bethany: I, I don't him just not under, like, being banished from the living room because the baby was fussing because he wanted peace after work or things like, you know, isn't that why you have a nursery so that you can breastfeed in there? Or, you know, the baby sleeps next to the bed so the mom doesn't have to get up at night.
Bethany: But yes, we did that, but I still had to get up at night because he was sleeping right. And didn't wanna be disturbed with the whole thing. So the baby would wake [00:48:00] up, I would walk to her room, I would nurse her, and then I would come back.
Julie: It wasn't just you felt
Julie: alone. You actually felt rejected.
Bethany: Yes.
Julie: Okay.
Julie: And you're saying to me, look, if if none of that would've happened and I didn't have all these abandonment wounds around that, then maybe we'd be in a different place now. Yeah. What would be different? Because I know we'd still have some of his stuff,
Julie: right?
Bethany: For sure.
Bethany: For sure. Yeah. I think that he wouldn't feel as though.
Bethany: I was neglecting him, or I neglected him because I would've actually wanted to spend time with him. Or if he had just even understood that if he, if he could have just understood that, you know, sometimes babies don't fall asleep as easily as, as we want them to. Or I've fell asleep holding her in the chair because I'm [00:49:00] exhausted too.
Bethany: And that left him waiting in the living room for, you know, two hours when I didn't even know I fell asleep for two hours, you know, and there's, there was no understanding for those situations. It was all just, I picked the baby over him and I left him to his own devices and I left him out there. By himself to
hang out and to be alone, where he felt isolated and he felt abandoned and he felt neglected.
Julie: What
Julie: would've happened though, if you didn't disconnect?
Julie: If you didn't find a place of emotional disconnection? I wanna know what, what the purpose, what the function of that disconnection was for you. You're walking around, you're feeling alone with it, you're feeling rejected. I mean, it's a devastating place.
Julie: What you're describing is, is a devastating, awful place to be. So what would've happened if I, if what if you didn't dis you are saying to me, look, I, I disconnected my body, disconnected from him. I don't know that it was a conscious choice, but it happened. [00:50:00] Right? And then that led to this kind of ev, these series of events where he's now feeling like on the outs and like you emotionally abandoned him.
Julie: But
Bethany: I think in some ways I tried to keep
Bethany: that connection a little bit.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Bethany: I did the best, I did the best that I could. Let's put it that way. Bethany: Right? So, you know,
Julie: So
Julie: you're trying not to let all this get you. You're down, right? You're trying, you're trying, you're trying. But no matter how hard you tried, still those, those feelings were terrible.
Julie: And still the disconnection came. And what my experience is, is that usually people don't kind of make a conscious choice to disconnect. They, they, their body gets to the point of so many hurts, so many let downs, so many disappointments that it just sort of, you stop expecting.
Bethany: Right
Julie: okay.
Bethany: Right.
Julie: And, and so I wanna know what would've happened if your body didn't just disconnect.
Julie: How would've that been in that period of time? Like, I'm, I'm trying to kind of, um, help us see [00:51:00] that that disconnection was, there's a, there was a good function of it, right?
Bethany: It was like a safety net. Um, yeah.
Julie: What
Julie: was safe about the disconnection?
Bethany: If I didn't disconnect, I don't, I don't know. I don't even know if there was any other option.
Julie: You would've just chronically been let down, you would've still had expectations. You would've, yeah. I mean, I, I like when you disconnected. Was that, did that help you just go, go into, okay, I'm on my own here. I'm just gonna have to go forward and,
Bethany: oh, yeah, because yeah. I mean, I, I had no choice, right? I had a, I had a,
Bethany: a
Bethany: new baby, right?
Julie: So the disconnection actually kept you going in some way. It helped you keep your head above water, so everything just didn't fall apart. Right? Because what would it have been like to take care of the baby, a newborn and continued to be let down and disappointed and devastated and feel alone? I guess what I'm
saying is sometimes it's better just to let go and
Bethany: Yeah, I [00:52:00] probably, if I
Bethany: would've focused on that too, I probably would've.
Bethany: I, and I don't know, like I probably would've ended up with postpartum depression, but I was truly like the happiest I had ever been because I had my baby and like I.
Julie: So you, you were able to get to survive and not only survive, but you know, thrive with this time with the baby and bond with the baby.
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: And if you hadn't, that could have been an even darker place that could have sent you
Julie: into a real black hole of depression.
Bethany: Yeah, she was keeping me going. She was the only thing that made me happy.
Julie: Right.
Julie: So he sees it as just,
Julie: you know, you randomly loving the baby more or just kind of choosing to give up on him, but that, that's really not what, what happened.
Julie: It sounds like there's only so much, you know, someone can, there's only so much pain [00:53:00] someone can take.
Bethany: Right. Right.
Julie: Does that feel new to you to see it in that way, that this was your body's way of. Keeping you safe and keeping your daughter safe from depression?
Bethany: Yes
Bethany: and no. But I think I saw it like that anyhow.
Bethany: I had no choice not to forge ahead.
Julie: You already knew that.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. But, but so what feels important is that you wish he could see it in that way.
Bethany: Right?
Julie: Because if he can't see it in that way, there's only one other alternative explanation that you're kind of just, you know, randomly ignoring him or doing all this on purpose.
Bethany: Right.
Julie: And that doesn't feel right.
Bethany: Right.
Julie: Okay. And so if you're feeling kind of heard around this I'd, I'd like to go over there and kind of understand a little bit more. You know, now that I know more about your wounds and what you're carrying around. [00:54:00] It sounds
to me like what you're needing around this, and we're not gonna process this right now.
Julie: We'll go into it later when the timing is right. But you're needing to, to know for your hurt to be seen here.
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And it sounds like you both are feeling some of very similar feelings around this.
Bethany: Yeah.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So do you mind if I switch over and just kind of understand more about what's kind of blocking him? Okay. All right. So Brian, I know you know, we've talked some about how you have these past wounds. Can we agree that these are past wounds that I'm, I'm guessing you do want to get past them too, but somehow they can just be coming back.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. . I really do.
Julie: Okay. And so let's just kind of. You know, do you agree that [00:55:00] there's kind of three main things here. One is the, um, the money issue, and two is, uh, her having whatever kind of relationship she was having with these two other guys that has left you feeling like you were just kind of the, the la third and then last option, the third fiddle.
Brian: Yeah. There, there's that piece. Okay.
Julie: And then we have,
Brian: I wouldn't even say it. The third one is really that much of an issue. I, I think the main,
Julie: what's
Julie: the third one?
Brian: Like when we were separated, we both, you know. Okay. Did lived her own lives. She linked up with an old boyfriend.
Julie: Okay. And do you, is it, is there some wounding around when the baby was born and you feeling like you got put on the back burner?
Brian: Yeah, big time.
Julie: Okay. All right. So, you know, I, I guess I just would like to start with, you know, there's a, [00:56:00] there's a lot of mistrust, right? Like
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: You're kind of always feeling like, when's, when am I gonna find myself back in this position again?
Brian: Um, yeah. It, it's just, it's sort of always there. Um, like, it was like just bam, bam, bam, all these things. It was a couple months before we were to get married, you know, I had just found out that like, the reason we didn't start dating, like the summer before we actually started dating was that she had these other, um, you know, flings, whatever you wanna call them.
Brian: And then it just seemed like when she took a job closer to me, then it was like, oh, it was like convenient. And then, but it was sort of like a, like a storyline behind all of it. Like she sort of like pounded it in my [00:57:00] head that it was like we were 2 33 35 year olds that like, we had like our own successes.
Brian: We had houses, cars, careers, whatever. And then we, the only thing that we didn't have was just like a significant other. And then like to sort of find out that it, that was like sort of a fallacy was concerning to me. Mm-hmm. And then
I think I found out like maybe two months before we were gonna get married, so like that put a damper on things.
Brian: And then like, you know, she mentioned like selling the condo and like at the time we were 35 years old. We didn't need to have some grandiose wedding. Like I, I, I was happy with just like friends and fa like small friends and family. And instead it was pitched at like, you know, we had a band and the, the whole, the whole day was like 35, $40,000.
Brian: And to me it was just [00:58:00] like frivolous spending. And, uh, there was a lot of arguments throughout that that I just sort of threw my hands up.
And, but the big kicker was the day before we got married, we had the prenup drafted and she blew all of her house money. And not even five months, like we're talking like nearly $30,000 and five months, just like gone.
Brian: And I thought we had agreed that we weren't gonna touch it and figure out what, you know, just let it sit. And then I had also thought that like, you know, she did. Kept with her finances and she had her stuff together. And then the, like I said, the day before we're supposed to get married, um, like $115,000 in like frivolous credit card bills, student loans, car, a personal loan to consolidate credit card [00:59:00] loans.
Brian: And
Julie: so you didn't, you had no idea about all of this,
Brian: no idea
Julie: this, so you're just kind of blindsided by it.
Brian: Blindside.
Brian: Completely blindsided. And, and we're supposed to get married like maybe 36 hours from this point. And I almost didn't show up to the wedding. Like, I, I literally thought, I don't wanna do this.
Brian: My gut told me like, this is bad. This, this is not gonna go well. And Julie: what was the fear that would happen? What did all of this mean to you?
Brian: Well, first, first and foremost, it was a tremendous breach of trust. Like about serious, serious stuff. Like, to me, it would've been no different than to find out that she had slept with someone the night before we got married.
Brian: Like it was a major breach of trust to me. And
Julie: so this is big for you.
Brian: Oh, it was huge,
Brian: you know, and, and we got two, 300 people showing up. They got suits, got hotel rooms, got gift cards, got everything. And like, [01:00:00] I'm
supposed to be the person that's gonna just rain down on the parade and be like, I, I just can't do this.
Brian: You know, I just can't do this. Um, but I think we were, we got married anyways and we were in counseling probably within two weeks of this all happening. Um, and then it was the, the first year of marriage was basically instead of like. Giddy and loving and, and like going on a honeymoon and just enjoying each other.
Brian: It was like, we're we're strapped. You know what I mean? Because I gotta wipe out this debt and I don't like to have debt unless it's like good debt, like things that make you money or an apartment building or a rental or a house. You know, things like that. Like, I just don't think that people need to have $10,000 in credit cards for, uh, to get Kohl's cash.
Brian: You know? I, I just don't, I don't operate like that.
Julie: Okay. And so what did [01:01:00] you, you know, what is the fear there around money for you?
Brian: I mean, growing up poor, like, it's, it's always been tough. So like, everything you gotta work for, and I just don't take it for granted. And I just, I don't live my life like, I run my life like a business like.
Brian: You know, you, you make a hundred dollars a month, you don't spend 150 or 120. Like, it's just, it's common.
Julie: So part
Julie: of your, so part of your just feeling secure in life
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Is, you know, revolves around feeling safe financially. Yeah. It's just not in your vocabulary at all to spend money out you, you know, to spend a lot of money outside of investments or whatever.
Julie: Good, good debt as you
Julie: call it.
Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, if I don't have the money to buy something, I don't buy it.
Julie: And so you, you think [01:02:00] you guys are on the same page, right? Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And then all of a sudden, bam, right before the wedding, you get wind of this and that's where, is this where this betrayal, this first betrayal happened?
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that pretty much set the tone. It wasn't just the day before the wedding and the day after the wedding. It was, it was now the first year of combating, getting rid of this debt. So,
Julie: so, so for this whole year, every time you make a payment, you have to be reminded of this.
Brian: Yes.
Julie: And if, if we just stick with the emotional piece again, it just, it's, it's a betrayal.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So if you could just help me understand, like, the moment you found out this, you know, you get wind of this, what was that like for you?
Brian: It was horrible. I felt like a fool. Um, you know, I, I felt like with Bethany, I feel like I, if I'm a detective, I can [01:03:00] only, if I ask her a question, I have to hit all of the bullet points of the truth or the lie for her to confess and just shoot me straight.
Brian: She won't.
Julie: So
Julie: it seems like there's a lot of information being withheld. Brian: Yes.
Julie: And.
Julie: Then that takes you every time this happens, that takes your nervous system back to this major blow. Yeah, this major.
Brian: I, I've, I've felt, um, like I always have to be guarded and I have to be alert, uh, with what she's doing.
Brian: She's very secretive. Um, you know, with that credit card that came up like a year or two a or the, the winter or so after we got married, which is like anywhere from 12 to 14 months, she didn't tell me that she was back into credit card debt again. I had to find out the hard way again. And
Julie: okay, so you decide to go through with this and you [01:04:00] commit to, you know, getting through it even though it was extremely painful and then bam, you find yourself back in that spot.
Brian: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And, and so to this day, and, and there are some other things that have happened too, but to this day, you feel like you still get in these situations where she's withholding some information or she's being secretive.
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And it's not just about that moment, but it also goes back to this big event that happened in the past.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the, to the, the two guys. Like prior to, um, uh, us actually dating, you know, it's, it's, it's the, the money. Like, you know, why, why would you mislead me to have this grandiose wedding when you knew you didn't have the money and you knew you were gonna have to spend the money from the money pile that we said we weren't gonna touch until post marriage.[01:05:00]
Julie: Okay. So it all, it all really circles back to this dishonesty. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And then, okay. And so then you get messages from, you know what she's doing, that she's not being honest with you.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Then it keeps happening over and over and, or even if it doesn't really keep happening, you're still kind of always having to be alert for, you're always walking around afraid that it's gonna happen.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Right. So you can really kind of never feel at ease. And then,
Brian: because I always have to pick up the bill, because if she's in credit card debt, that means that she doesn't have the money to pay for the entire bill. So who has to pick it up? Me. And I'm just tired of,
Julie: I
Julie: think, I think if it was just about money, you could probably get past it.
Julie: But it's not just about money, it's about the emotional betrayal. It's, does she really care about my needs over here?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: And it's the communication, you know, [01:06:00]
Julie: can I, can I trust her to be honest with me? Yeah. Because what happens if you can't trust her?
Brian: Then there's no, there's no foundation for a marriage at that point.
Brian: I mean, and after the, the second credit card came up, I was ready to file for divorce, and this is before our, our baby was born. Uh, i, it, it was just fool me once, you know that, that adage, you know, she fooled me twice at that point and I should have just ended it right there.
Julie: Okay.
Julie: And so instead of ending it, you decided to keep, to keep going and try to make it work. And part of you really, really wants to do that. But what you're finding is, is you can't seem to get that trust back.
Brian: No.
Julie: And so then how, and then what happens is, is you're always kind of on alert and then you guys are trying to have a good time together.
Julie: And like even the littlest [01:07:00] thing might happen and bam, you go back to the bad place.
Brian: Sometimes Yes,
Julie: not always. That doesn't define the relationship, but it happens enough of the time.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, in, in light of talking about the birth of our daughter, um, you know, I, I feel that she tips the scales to that being so hard for her.
Brian: But like I had to bear the cross for, I think by the time that she was born, it was like maybe five years that we were married at that point, four years that we were married at that point. And I had to sit and do it by myself and figure it out, and then all of a sudden it goes back to second rate citizen, your feelings don't matter.
Brian: Like even though you've been doing this for four years and this is your behavior for two months, mine is more important. And it just, then [01:08:00] those things,
Julie: so kind of like, it's
Julie: kind of like what she's saying. She's saying, look, I had some pretty good reasons to go to this bad emotional place and detach and, and then
Brian: yeah,
Julie: you're saying, look, I've, same story, I have the same narrative.
Julie: I felt the same way. I felt betrayed, I felt detached, and it was hard for me to show up when I was in that place.
Brian: Yeah. She didn't, she wasn't empathetic whatsoever. She, she would go like cold stare whenever I would confront her about it. It was, it was emotionless. Okay. It it like, it didn't matter to her.
Julie: All right. So you didn't feel like you were getting any real support or help with your feelings around what had happened?
Brian: No, not really.
Julie: And that really impacted you. And
Julie: then we have this, the baby, and that was kind of still. You know, you were still in this really [01:09:00] difficult place and that impacted your ability to emotionally engage fully when the baby was born.
Brian: Well, I think in our one-on-one, we, we spoke of it, um, and she spoke of it today that the, the day that her water broke, um, I was building, uh, a building for my business and the state had come and shut it down, and then seven hours later we were at the hospital. And, um, you know, the state was threatening to sue me.
Brian: You know, and, and when you start thinking about that, I'm just, I'm just a little person, you know, and I'm, I'm trying at this point, I'm, I'm at the hospital about to bring another life into this world, and I'm realizing that I might not even have a life, you know, like. This might be all wiped out. Like all my apartments, all my business, like the [01:10:00] last 15 to 20 years of working hard to get to this point is just gone.
Brian: Like, I mean, devastating. And then then how much money is this gonna cost between surveys and contracts and, uh, blueprints and fines and lawyer fees? And am I gonna be able to keep up with this? And then, then on top of it, like we, we sit around and go through all this stuff that, that normal, like parents or, you know, adults that are about to have a baby.
Brian: And then you find out that like your baby isn't coming home with you. Like, and, and I had like all these questions, like it just seemed like somebody was. Not telling me the truth that something was really wrong, but they wanted to protect me from what could possibly happen. And [01:11:00] then it's like I
still have like my business going and my employees and, and I have now this huge mess with the state and, and then now it's my week with my other daughter and I'm having to take care of her.
Brian: And like my mind is just in 50 places I can't focus. And when, when, uh, she spoke of like not wanting to have another baby and me giving in, it was just, I was just to the point in my life and my business that like I really just didn't
have any more time to devote. Um, everything was so demanding between all the hats that I wear and.
Brian: Juggling it all to make everybody happy. And I realized that this was a happy moment, but like my world, and I would've thought our world was [01:12:00] collapsing or about to collapse, and she just was so caught up in
Julie: it's
Julie: easy to kind of now look back and go, yeah, this is supposed to be a happy moment. But it sounds like you were pretty overwhelmed and terrified about a lot of things, and on top of that, now you're a dad and you have another child to take care of and Yeah.
Brian: Yeah, it was, it was overwhelming. It was just unbelievably overwhelming and, and the fear of just losing it all, just, it made me detach from like the goodness that we just brought home. You know? It, it, it just like, I. I just looked at her
Julie: just in the way
Julie: that Bethany had to detach to stay, to keep her head above water with her responsibilities.
Julie: It sounds like you were in a similar position.
Brian: Very much so. We both agreed. We both agreed to that. It's just we, [01:13:00] she wouldn't help me and I wouldn't help her, and she couldn't see my perspective and I couldn't see hers. And like from my perspective, it was, it, yeah, she could give her a bottle and breastfeed and, and do bath time and so on and so forth.
Brian: But if we didn't have a home to do that in, then what did, what did any of this matter? Like, we couldn't do this in a parking lot or in the back of a Subaru. Like, like that was my job, was to provide a home. And with that being jeopardized, I, I just was in a really bad place, you know? And. It just was really tough.
Julie: Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot of layers here. There's a lot of really bad stuff that was going on in this moment. And again, I mean, [01:14:00] on top of all of this, on top of kind of the financial and trauma and fear and all this
stuff that you're going through when the baby's born, you also have all these kind of wounds from earlier on that you're having to deal with.
Brian: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It just, it, it hasn't been an easy run with us for these, these seven years. You know, it's, I'm not saying it's, it's the worst, but, you know, I'm sure a lot of people have it worse, but the timing of it all, it just, it was crippling, you know?
Julie: Right. So you guys have been through a lot together, more than, you know, more than your fair share, right?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And so you have all this emotional stuff going on, and now here you are and you're trying to work through it and you know, you're trying to reach each other and find each other. But there's all these blocks and partially these blocks are from all this, these past events. And, you know, I'm just curious, like, do you feel [01:15:00] that with the right kind of, you know, interactions with Bethany, do you feel you could ever heal from these things?
Brian: I hope to. I I really do. I mean, when, when things were good, um, it, it was the, it was the best I probably have ever experienced and
Julie: Okay. So we do have something that we can try to work back to. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Like we've said, that's not new, but so. I just wanna know right now, and I, and I know the answer's yes, but I just wanna make it abundantly clear.
Julie: Both of you recognize that these wounds are major blocks and they are driving negative cycles even, even just this weekend.
Bethany: Yeah.
Brian: Yeah. They come up almost constantly.
Julie: Right. These little things that happen or get said can bam, get so big and remind you of the [01:16:00] past.
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And if you hadn't had these wounds, I'm going to, um, assume here that you guys would be able to tolerate a little more imperfection.
Brian: Yeah. I, I think we did, you know? . For the most part, like prior to our daughter being born. .
Julie: Like if, like, for example, you know, when she had the surgery last weekend or two weekends ago, and. Brian, something you felt kind of dropped or you felt like your expectations were, um, you know, not, not lived up to, um, do you think that situation would've been more tolerable?
Julie: Like, oh, we can just get through the weekend and talk about it later if you weren't carrying around the burden of all these old wounds?
Brian: Yeah. Yeah, I do think so. But you know whose life is [01:17:00] perfect anyways. You know, I mean, everyone's gonna have wounds. It's,
Julie: well, these are some pretty big wounds and it really doesn't matter.
Julie: You know? A betrayal is a betrayal, right? Our bodies are designed to mistrust when we get betrayed.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: People might get betrayed over different things. Your betrayals might happen around, you know, money and someone else might not experience that at all around money, but they get be, you know, feel betrayed around some other circumstance.
Julie: But a betrayal is a betrayal. It causes your nervous system to go into a state of fear, right? Because you're always waiting for the, you know, the next time it might happen, you, it's a painful, painful place to be. You feel alone, you feel dropped, you feel abandoned.
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So understandably you're gonna be hypervigilant, um, of anything that comes along in the future that might remind you of those events and go, okay, here we are again, and you're gonna go into [01:18:00] some negative cycle move to try to prevent it from happening, to try to prevent some future pain in going back to that place.
Brian: Mm-hmm. Definitely.
Julie: And
Julie: these are the things that drive the protest and the defensiveness and all of it. And. So anyway, we, we have to get, you know, we're not gonna be able to heal this overnight. But, um, you know, that, that's probably one of our, you know, is our main goal I think of the therapy is see if we can work through this stuff together.
Julie: And I guess more than anything right now, like I said, I want you to recognize that these negative cycles are driven by, you know, to a large degree for you guys by all this stuff that happened in the past, you probably could survive the, the present day challenges much better. You'd be in a much better position to survive those and work through those.
Julie: Um, but they have, they have taken, they take on so much more meaning. And [01:19:00] then the other thing is, um, I want you to understand that both of your mistrust has a really important function that neither of you are choosing this mistrust. There's actually wisdom in the mistrust that mistrust is trying to keep you safe.
Julie: But the problem is, is the mistrust is also blocking connection. Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Does it feel at least that, you know, are you guys at least able to kind of have some shared empathy around the fact that you're both really stuck in this place of like wanting this connection but also having to experience this wall of mistrust within yourselves?
Julie: I mean, that's a pretty awful place to be for both of you. Bethany: I think so,
Brian: yeah.
Julie: Okay. Alright, well we'll go ahead and end there and we'll just pick back up and keep trying to forge through this together.
Bethany: Thank
Bethany: you.
Brian: Okay. Thank you so much. [01:20:00]
Julie: Alright, let's just take a moment to sit with everything we just heard.
Julie: The emotional truth of their history just came into the room. Bethany's hidden grief over feeling alone during one of life's most vulnerable moments. And we heard the story of Brian's broken trust, and these feelings are alive today. Contaminating. Every present moment between them. So we're not healing today, but getting the stories out is the beginning.
Julie: So you're probably wondering, what does healing all of this even look like? So four things. One, we need for them to be able to talk to each other outside of negative cycles about these wounds. That means you using vulnerability and healthy assertion instead of just blame and protest and defensiveness and constant interruptions.
Julie: And if they can do that, they'll get somewhere. Then two, they need to be able to lean into each other's experiences. You know, this is part of talking about it outside of negative cycles. To be outside of negative cycles, we do need to be [01:21:00] able to lean into each other's experiences. Um, and three, we need to create positive cycles around the event.
Julie: Meaning even though the pain is real, they can use it as an opportunity to hear and understand and validate each other and actually get a bonding experience outta it. Remember, the most painful events have the most emotional energy, um, to also be the most bonding. If we can get this right and get them, you know, communicating about this with health and four, you know, we need to do going forward, anything else that this, these wounds are needing to heal and rebuild trust.
Julie: Obviously this is whatever behavior change needs to happen to prevent it from happening again. And some wounds need other things, like maybe one partner needs to know that when the wound gets triggered by something they think about or see, or whatever, some reminder. It's safe to bring it up and get comfort that they aren't going to be told you should just get over [01:22:00] it.
Julie: And of course we don't want couples to have to keep talking about these wounds ad nauseum that's not healthy either, and is a sign that the wound is not healed and still is still crying to be healed. But healing isn't necessarily a one and done thing. And paradoxically, the more a partner feels, they can bring it up
and get support and that and that conversation will be successful, the less likely over time that they'll need to bring it up.
Julie: So in the homework, I'll have some explorative questions for you about any attachment wounds that you and your partner might be carrying in your relationship. As always, we'd love to hear your reflections, so please, you know, send a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and we might feature your story in a future episode.
Julie: So thank you for joining me today. Thank you to Bethany and Brian for their vulnerability and what you heard was the hard, messy, and you know, absolutely necessary work of bringing these old wounds into light. Until next time, take care of yourselves and your [01:23:00] relationships.

Negative CyclesTrust & Wounds

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 7: The Original Wounds of the Negative Cycle

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Mapping Your Negative Cycle

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

Session 8: Why Do We Lie?

Session 6: Can a Relationship Ever Really Be 50-50?