Session 7: The Original Wounds of the Negative Cycle

Season 2
Written By Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

For anyone wondering why they keep hitting the same wall in their relationship, this session is essential listening. This week, we go back to the beginning to uncover the origin stories of Bethany and Brian’s core wounds—the first major hurts that set their painful cycle in motion and are still alive in their conflict today.

We explore how their survival strategies collide when old pain is triggered. Bethany uses logic and explanation to stay safe from overwhelming emotion, while Brian uses anger as a desperate attempt to be seen and heard. We hear the story of Bethany’s hidden grief over feeling alone and the story of Brian’s broken trust.

This episode reveals that healing doesn't start with tallying wrongs or proving who was right. It begins with building the capacity to finally see the wound in the person across from you. The turning point comes not from winning the fight, but from learning how to speak from the pain instead of the defense.

This week’s prompt: What is your go-to emotional defense when you feel hurt? Do you tend to explain and rationalize, or do you get loud to demand being heard?

Send your responses to this prompt or any questions or comments about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecurerelationship.com. Your submission might be featured on a future episode.

  • Session 7: The Original Wounds of the Negative Cycle  

    Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast.  I'm your host, Julie Menanno, licensed marriage and family therapist and author  of Secure Love. And this session is a big one. It's raw, it's revealing, and for  anyone wondering why they keep hitting the same wall in their relationship, this  episode is really essential listening.  

    Julie: So you might've noticed that we didn't start this season at the beginning  of their, you know, relationship with the first major hurts, I should say. Um, and  that's intentional. You know, I'm, I'm making sure that my timing's good here.  The work isn't really about chronologically recounting a relationship's history.  

    Julie: It's about building the skills too. Navigate the present, but sometimes the  past is so alive in the room that it has to be spoken. So today is one of those  times where we're finally going to hear the origin stories of their deepest  wounds. I've known about these attachment wounds from my [00:01:00] initial  individual sessions with them.  

    Julie: Bethany and Brian still aren't ready to talk about these wounds on their  own with each other without me there to provide structure. They'll just go into  negative cycles, which it actually makes the wounds even worse. They do,  however, now have more capacity to hold their triggers as the other one speaks,  they're interrupting less.  

    Julie: And you know, these wounds are crying for relief, which is what  unhealed wounds do. And. This week they started to cry even louder. So we're  going to go ahead and get this conversation started. So, but before we get to the  details, I just want to once again put this out there that some of you will listen  and have a lot of judgment about the objectively destructive behaviors we're  going to hear about.  

    Julie: And it is true that some behaviors are more destructive than others.  There's no doubt about it. I urge you though, to just not get stuck in this  behavior layer. And I don't mean ignore the behavior layer, it's as real as  [00:02:00] anything else here. But the problem is, is not getting stuck there. So  for this episode, we need to utilize the emotional need lens because the  behaviors that we're going to hear about today are big and.  

    Julie: For lack of better word, big and ugly, and I'd like for you to just spend all  the time you need, judging the behaviors that we're going to hear about. Go  ahead and get all the judgment out of your system. You have my permission 

    because these behaviors are worthy of judgment. They aren't good. Not bonding  with your baby and leaving your wife alone.  

    Julie: Postpartum is not good. Financial infidelity is not good. Being mean and  spiteful is not good. You know, you can even categorize their behaviors if, and  use labels that fit for you, if it helps you make more sense of things. There's  always value in making sense to the degree that it leads to healing, but after  you're done judging and categorizing, [00:03:00] it's time to put the judgment to  the side.  

    Julie: Not get rid of it, but put it to the side and join me in trying to better  understand the people behind the behaviors. People who are not bad. Just like  you aren't bad in spite of your failings and mismanagement of your feelings, we  all fail and do bad things when our needs aren't met, and we just don't know yet  how to get them met.  

    Julie: So the behaviors that you're going to hear today are coming from people  who are desperately trying to get emotional needs met, that they just haven't  learned how to get met in any other way. They aren't even super clear about  what the emotions are to begin with, much less about what needs to happen to  get them met.  

    Julie: So, you know, my job isn't to stay in judgment. My job is to help the  humans behind the behaviors understand what's said behind behaviors trying to  do in service of changing the behavior. So as a couple's therapist, you know, I'm  in the business of behavior change. That's what I do. I create behavior change  and as I've said [00:04:00] before, um, the type of work I do, EFT, it doesn't get  behavior change by telling people what to do differently or how bad they are  and leave it at that.  

    Julie: That approach either doesn't work at all or only works temporarily  because it doesn't address the root problem. Instead, we create behavior change  by helping people see what their bad behavior is trying to do, so we can give  them better options to achieve the results that they're hoping for, instead of just  endlessly spinning their wheels, not achieving the results they're hoping for.  

    Julie: A lot of times people, when they're behaving badly, they, they have no  idea what they're actually hoping for. They just want know they're trying to  change their partner or feel better. Um, so research on EFT and I mean quality,  EFT, the skill level of the therapist using the tool does matter, but research on  EFT is not just that it's effective when the therapy ends, but that its effectiveness  holds years later.[00:05:00] 

    Julie: The, the statistics are that 90% of couples will improve and 75% will.  Heal and go from an insecure attachment with each other to a secure  attachment. And, you know, EFT has the most research backing of any type of  couple's work. But again, the skill level of the therapist does matter because it's  also the most difficult type of couple's work, and it takes a massive amount of  commitment and training to do it well.  

    Julie: So if you are looking for your own EFT therapist, you know, really do  some research on how much experience they have because obvi obviously with,  you know, like everything else, experience, you know, matters. So, I'd never  come across a relationship behavior in my work that wasn't trying to get an  emotional need met, no matter how good the behavior, no matter how bad the  behavior.  

    Julie: All the behavior is trying to get an emotional need met. Humans are so  driven by emotional needs that they'll resort to just about anything, to feel first  emotionally safe and comfortable, and second [00:06:00] emotionally close to  others. It's, it's as strong of a desire as the need to eat, and no matter how  disconnected a person is from their emotional needs, they still have them and  they're still driven by them.  

    Julie: And no matter how rational and intellectual a person is, the reason and  intellectualizing their doing are still a means to met emotional needs. You know,  the, the most rational thing in existence, let's say math or science in and of  themselves, aren't so emotional that humans study them and do them, not  randomly, they study them and they do them because it satisfies them to do so.  

    Julie: Or the results of doing it satisfies them. And, and satisfaction is a feeling.  So if someone is, is staying really stoic and reasonable during an argument,  they're doing so because maybe one thing is they don't like the feeling of chaos  and uncontained conflict, so they're trying to avoid a feeling so they don't have  to feel bad, [00:07:00] and they, the opposite of bad is better.  

    Julie: So just as much, and, and this is true for them just as much as the person  who is getting more emotionally escalated doesn't like the feeling of being  unheard. They both want to feel emotionally safe, but they just show up very  differently on the surface. Okay. That said, today we're going to get grounded in  their stories around their attachment wounds.  

    Julie: They both have them attachment wounds, sometimes called attachment  injuries are. Major experiences of betrayal and breaches of trust, they are still  very much alive in the relationship and until they're healed, will continue to 

    create problems no matter how much health we bring to the relationship in the  present until these wounds are healed, trust and closeness, it just can't be fully  restored.  

    Julie: And all I'm really going to do is be a secure base for each them of them  today as they share, I'll be curious. I'll reflect their experiences and [00:08:00] validate their feelings around their experiences, because today I'm just here. To  get familiar with these wounds, to build safety around the conversation, and  we're going to need to dive more deeply into it later so we can eventually get  the ball rolling on healing the wounds and doing what we need to do to prevent  more wounds from happening in the future.  

    Julie: Most couples do come to me with wounds, and you have to be very, very  careful because if you get. Too far out in front of them when the couple ha  doesn't have the communication skills. Even around the smaller issues, you  really do, like I said earlier, you really do risk making them worse. But for  whatever reasons, these wounds have been kind of dormant up until now and  have decided to start crying louder for healing.  

    Julie: So the first thing for me is just to give space to the crying and go from  there and like I said, as a secure base until they can be each other's secure base  around these topics. Alright, now we're getting into one of my favorite parts of  the show, which is hearing directly from you, [00:09:00] the listeners. Um, also  just a quick reminder, while we've really been loving all the emails, seriously  keep them coming.  

    Julie: We'd really love to hear your voices too. So, um, if you wanna send a  voice note. Just try to keep it under 90 seconds so we can feature it right here on  the show. Okay. Let's kick things off with Jessica who wrote in to share her  thoughts. So Jessica says, hi. I'm listening to season two, episode six and have  an observation question.  

    Julie: I typically relate to the anxious partner and found myself relating to  Melissa last season. This season I find myself very frustrated with Brian and the  way he interacts with Bethany, who has been indicated as the more avoidant  partner. It makes me question two things. Does the intersection of gender and  attachment styles change the way each attachment styles approaches the  negative cycle?  

    Julie: For example, the protest behavior of an anxious woman being different  than an anxious male. Let me go ahead and answer that. I do believe so. Yeah, I  think that of avoidant females [00:10:00] can look very anxious on the surface 

    and anxious males can have more of a distancing from their emotions than  anxious females.  

    Julie: So yeah, truth to that, not all the time, but definitely true. Um, let me go  on here. Um, so two, how does gender influence how each attachment style is  perceived by others? It was impossible to get through the episode on 50 50  without Brian articulating feeling taken advantage of for being the only one  mowing the lawn without reconciling the dynamic that Bethany did most of the  child rearing, which is stereotypical in a heteronormative relationship.  

    Julie: Well, they are in a heteronormative relationship, so their behaviors and  the way they structure their life is going to be heteronormative. Uh, if we really  just look underneath the behavior and we. Clarify why he is the anxious one,  and she's the avoidant one is because he's in the blame role, um, and he's  blaming her for taking advantage.  

    Julie: [00:11:00] He's blaming her for all, all the things that she's doing wrong,  and she is playing more of the defense role. And that doesn't mean that there  aren't times where she's in blame and there aren't times that he's in defense. But  predominantly we're just gonna hear Brian doing the complaining and Bethany  doing the defending.  

    Julie: And I need to work with the avoidant partner first to get them  emotionally engaged, which is why you're gonna see me doing a little more  work with Bethany as we go forward, because they need to be emotionally  engaged. You know, if the anxious partner is going to get vulnerable later and  get out of blame, we need the avoidant partner to be able to hold them.  

    Julie: Um, I do wanna say about Brian. I mean, you know, Brian is. Is very  anxious. He's based on behavior and his real difficulty seeing his own role, like,  you know, it's pretty big. His, his difficulty seeing his role and we will really  head on address that later. And it's gonna, there's gonna be some assertiveness  from me around that.  

    Julie: I'm not ready to go there yet. It, it's [00:12:00] still kind of me getting  some money in the bank with them and letting them know, Hey, I'm safe. I'm  here to help you. I'm not just gonna lead in with, you know, blame. And, but his,  his behavior is objectively, I, I would say objectively worse as far as the level of  destruction and the way the, the things he's saying.  

    Julie: And, um, he, he probably, you know, he kind of hovers on that line  between. Really kind of extreme anxious attachment and disorganized 

    attachment. Um, not enough for me to call him a disorganized attachment  because there are times when he can really step in and have a lot of insight into  himself and really kind of settle in.  

    Julie: Um, for sure. He's objectively, his behaviors are objectively worse and  more damaging to the relationship. But again, we just can't stay stuck in the  behavior because both of them, communication wise are contributing to the  problem. Behaviorally, one partner sometimes does show up in a worst way, but  [00:13:00] they're both still at the end of the day doing behaviors that are  getting in the way of behavior change.  

    Julie: And so I've gotta figure out how are you, if I, if I just get stuck on, well,  your behavior is worse, or whose behavior is worse, first of all, that game will  never end because, you know, then I'll be in the role of the judge and that  doesn't work. So I've gotta figure out, look, how are you both behaving  regardless of who's worse.  

    Julie: In ways that keep the cycle going and whatever that is, I've gotta shift it.  And if a couple comes to me and one is actually abusive in the sense that there's  a power. Imbalance or one is just get, especially getting abusive when the first  partner is being vulnerable, then there's, that's a different story.  

    Julie: Um, so anyway, now let's hear from Carly who also sent in an email. So  Carly says, hi there. I listened to the first season of the podcast and I'm listening  now to the second season, and my boyfriend and I have been dating for nearly  two [00:14:00] years and official for about a year and eight months. We do not  live together yet, and I don't have any of the added stressors that the couple.  

    Julie: In this season feature do. But by listening and applying what I've been  learning, it's allowed me to have a more empathetic and patient experience with  him. I would say I'm the partner with a lot more of the protesting behaviors. A  lot of that protest for me is driven by being afraid that when my needs don't get  met, it's because I'm not good enough, don't deserve to have those needs met.  

    Julie: And it's only been recently that alternatively my boyfriend and I have  been able to try and see each other through different perspectives. He really  tried to connect with me recently, he texted me even when I want my alone  

    time, I think about you and am excited to be with you. Oh, it's so sweet. Um,  this made me cry.  

    Julie: I thought anyone could make me. If, if anyone could make me feel as  seen, um, as this, I can really see this becoming a pattern. Absolutely those 

    small [00:15:00] little messages like that there, it, it builds, it builds safety. And  when you feel safe, you're going to show up better too. Um, I know it's so early  in the relationship, but I'm hoping that by trying to establish these  communication patterns and methods to identify and validate needs, we will be  able to take on future dynamic changes and have the tools readily available to  continue.  

    Julie: Meeting each other's needs. So thank you so much for that. That's  beautiful. You're doing such a great job and there's just no reason to think, I  mean, clearly both of you are open and willing to do the work and it's, that's all  you need is you need to know the skills and you need the openness and  willingness to trial and error and just jump in and, um, you know, grow as you  go.  

    Julie: Alright, um, finally, let's go to Sean. It's always, I just wanna add this,  you know, it's always great to hear from the men who listen. I know the  majority of the audience is women, but guys, we see you, we hear you and we  want you in this conversation too. So, Sean, thank you [00:16:00] for writing in  and he says in the latest episode, you told Brian and Bethany that you wanted  them, them to learn to sit with their experiences rather than getting stuck in the  back and forth just before that, when they were stuck in the back and forth.  

    Julie: I felt anxiety rising me. It was the same anxiety I had when I was trying  to save my marriage. That feeling of I need you to hear what I'm going through,  coupled with the fear that what I was feeling was just going to be ignored by my  wife. And it was such a strong feeling that I just had a hard time hearing what  my wife was sharing.  

    Julie: And yes, that if you're afraid that you're not going to be heard, that fear is  going to block you from being open. So on one hand, we've got to be able to put  that fear to the side and, and stay in there. You know, we don't, we don't learn to  trust if we're not shifting our behaviors. But on the other hand, the more you  

    guys experience taking these turns, hearing each other, the more you [00:17:00] trust it and the easier it is to lean in and hear your partner.  

    Julie: You know, it doesn't, at that point, it's not really waiting. It's just, you  know, letting the process unfold because you trust and in the moment, this is  really hard, but I, I'm going back to Sean here in the moment. This is really  hard. But I know that me wanting to share my own experience is a better way to  navigate this. 

    Julie: Because when both people try to be heard at the same time, neither one  ends up being heard and it's so true. Um, so thank you Sean, for that input and  big thanks and shout out to everyone who shared their thoughts this week. Um,  I, I, again, I love hearing how the podcast is landing with you and how it's  challenging your thinking and really helping you reflect on your current or even  your past relationships or even just making you feel seen.  

    Julie: Alright, now let's get into our session with Bethany and Brian. I think  Bethany will just kind of start with you and just, I think, you know, we had  communicated through email and you said that you had. [00:18:00] Quite a bit  to say, quite bit. So I wanna give you that space, but also know that, you know,  I, I might need to kind of move us in a, in a direction with that, if you don't  mind.  

    Bethany: Yeah. I just felt really lost after a couple of days. Um, you know, we  had a, I was here staying with him, um, and, and our daughter for a few days,  and we switched like his sole custody day to, to Wednesday. And, and, which  was fine. I didn't really wanna leave her, but I understand the reason that he  wanted some alone time with her too.  

    Bethany: And then I, you know, I made them dinner, I left and then I didn't hear  from him the rest of the night really. And then. I go to pick her up Friday,  Thursday morning. And I thought I was doing a solid by saying like, I'll come  and, you know, I'll just come to the house and pick her up so you don't have to  put her in the car.  

    Bethany: I was already out that morning and by, and he was like, no, just  [00:19:00] meet me. And then I met him and I was like, what's wrong with you?  And he was like, you're aggravating. And I didn't even understand what I did  that was aggravating. So I was like, that set me off. Right. And then he calls  later, we call to talk about it and he goes on, I felt like for like 50 minutes we  were on the phone for 50 minutes and, and you called me, you called me a  sadistic fuck.  

    Bethany: Which really set me off, um, because I don't think I'm sadistic. Um,  and, and just like, I just feel like he thinks everything I'm doing is like out to get  him and is like evil intent and I'm not an evil person and that's very frustrating  to work through. And then I'll just try to skip to, you know, we, I tried to plan a  nice date night for us.  

    Bethany: He seemed like he didn't care whether we went one way or the other,  which I feel like it's, it would've been our only second date since what 

    September, where it was just he and I, because a lot of times we're sharing the  time with our daughter. So, you know, it was [00:20:00] my weekend with our  daughter, my parents, I asked them to watch her overnight so that we could go  on a date.  

    Bethany: I just wasn't feeling a good vibe. It was kind of like, it wasn't bad, but  it wasn't good. And then we get back here and it was just quiet. He was just  quiet. I thought he just wanted to watch the game. But apparently, you know, he  had said, well, let me, let me chime in real quick that I think I had told you, and  maybe he had told you two in our one-on-ones that when we were separated,  like he ended up having like a, a relation, not a relationship, but like a, I don't  know, I guess a one night stand with somebody.  

    Bethany: And then I had, I wouldn't even call it a relationship, but like I  reconnected with one of my exes from like 15 years ago. Okay. So we both  know that full disclosure. And so he's been real hung up on the fact that that  particular night that I went out with that gentleman, I gave him my undivided  attention where I wasn't FaceTiming our daughter.  

    Bethany: I wasn't, you know, calling to check in. Did she make it to bed? I  wasn't watching a baby monitor on my phone. And I got a [00:21:00] hotel with  this person. And so that was just like, I, I gave him my undivided attention, and  that's what Brian has wanted for so, so long. And so that sparked conversation  Saturday night about how he wanted my undivided attention.  

    Bethany: And I was like, I did that. Right? Like, and then there's the financial,  like I, I paid for dinner, I drove, and I, I gave him my undivided attention, but it  still didn't feel like it was good enough. And he was like, we're just here sitting  

    on our couch, and like, it's just boring. And I'm like, I don't know. I thought I  checked all of the boxes for you to have a good date night.  

    Bethany: And it wasn't. And he felt like I didn't  

    Julie: wait. I'm, I'm a little bit confused.  

    Julie: Um, yeah. How, how did we go from date night? To  

    Julie: back to this, these relationships you had.  

    Bethany: 'cause because I said you had been asking for undivided attention and  he, the ex that I had a fling with when we were separated, got my undivided  attention right on the night that, that we hooked up. 

    Bethany: And [00:22:00] he went back to that place of, that person can get your  undivided attention and you can want them a lot, but you don't want me like  that, or I can't get my, I can't get your undivided attention. And so, so he's  saying this, this, this weekend. Yes. This weekend. But I felt like I did all of  those things. I planned the date, took care of everything, and then here we are.  

    Bethany: And then it, it just, it just tanked. And he just started blaming me for  all the things that went wrong in our marriage. And I told him, yeah, he didn't  get undivided attention. Or any attention really when he wanted it, because of  

    all of the things that I felt and I saw, or his lack of interaction with our, our  newborn, how there wasn't any interaction with her.  

    Bethany: So like there was, I didn't take, there, there was no emotional  [00:23:00] connection for me to even wanna connect with him during  postpartum because there was no connection from my perspective between him  and our baby. And that like, wore me down to a point where I didn't care to  spend time with him. Like if he didn't care to give our daughter the time of day  or talk to her infant or not, or acknowledge her presence or, you know, make us  not be present, um, in the same space as him.  

    Bethany: Why would I want to do that? And so he was like, so you on purpose,  didn't you purposefully like, shut me out? And so in turn, that led to I sabotaged  our marriage. Okay? Then he goes down a rabbit hole of like, I sabotaged a trip  we were supposed to go on and all this stuff. And it [00:24:00] just, it was just  

    an awful, awful night.  

    Julie: Okay? So the, the cycle  

    Julie: is, is that you, you go back right to this period of time when your baby  was a newborn and you're just feeling really alone with it all. And you're getting  messages from him somehow that he's not really wanting to have any  involvement or connect with her. And that's devastating.  

    Julie: And so the way your body handled that devastation is you just detached.  That's how you survived it is you just detached. And then now we're in this  place where, you know, no matter you're trying to get back that attachment or  you have gotten back the attachment and yet you can't reach him consistently  because it feels like no matter what you do, the past just keeps coming back to  haunt you.  

    Julie: And you have all these things Yes. Kind of brought up [00:25:00] and  thrown back in your face. But you're saying, look, I had re good reasons to go to 

    that detached place anyway. And I know there's other stuff that keeps coming  back too. Right. But yes. Okay. But you're saying, look, this doesn't always feel  fair because anything I've done, you know, either I've, you know, profusely  apologized for, or I had my own reasons for kind of going into that place.  

    Bethany: Yes.  

    Julie: The detachment place. Okay.  

    Bethany: Yeah. And  

    Bethany: I, I just wonder like. Can we ever get through this? Can we ever get,  and he even said, I don't know if I will ever, or can ever get past any of this.  And some of the things, and I recognize and I've owned, um, you know, the, the  financial piece that bothers him so much from, you know, nine years ago or,  

    Julie: and let's just, just go ahead and, and  

    Julie: remind me about the details around that.  

    Bethany: Yeah. Well there's a couple things from, like, before we got  [00:26:00] married, there were two people that I casually dated before. Like he  and I contacted each other and then I kind of fell off and we didn't contact each  other or we, we weren't, not that we were dating, we were just like  communicating through Facebook, I think at that point.  

    Bethany: And just the timing was off. And he lived in one place. I lived in  another and I was fixed up with people in between talking to him and actually.  Connecting with him to like have the point of a date. And those people didn't  really mean much to me. They weren't long relationships. I wouldn't even call  them like boyfriends.  

    Bethany: Right. It was like they were somewhat short lived. And it, I just, he  was like, why didn't we date sooner? And I was like, I don't know, just like  circumstances, life, whatever. And I didn't say that I was date, I had dated this  person or that person because they were so insignificant to me. Mm-hmm. And  then like we were having another conversation, I don't even know after, but  [00:27:00] married  

    Julie: these  

    Julie: events, these, this situation keeps coming back up. 

    Bethany: Yes, yes. And then the financial,  

    Julie: but you're  

    Julie: saying is,  

    Julie: look, Brian and I were not committed. And on top of that. I wasn't really  even committed to these other guys. But still the narrative is like, somehow you  cheated on him, or  

    Bethany: it wasn't even that We weren't even talking at that time.  Julie: No, I'm saying the narrative from that.  

    Bethany: The narrative is that he's third fiddle, that's what he says. Okay. He  feels like he was the third option on a list of options that weren't even existing.  

    Julie: . But just, just speaking for you, it's, it's like, whoa, wait a minute. That  doesn't feel right. That doesn't feel like I'm being understood. That doesn't feel  super fair.  

    Bethany: Right.  

    Julie: Because you have, you know, you weren't committed with him and then  these two weren't really serious anyway. Right. Okay. So that's one of, one of  the issues. And then that keeps popping back up. And then we have this other  guy that you were having some sort of inner communication with when you  guys split up.  

    Julie: And then [00:28:00] tell me more about the financial piece and w would  you say those are the three?  

    Bethany: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The, the financial piece is. Um, I sold a condo, my  condo, um, and my proceeds for it, we had agreed that we would keep them.  And then I spent quite a bit, I ended up spending quite a bit of them on our  wedding.  

    Bethany: Um, and so when we went to sign the prenup, not all of the money  that I had initially kept or received from the house sale was obviously on the, on  the assets and liabilities of the prenup. So there was that. And then we had never  really talked about like how much debt we were in before we were married. 

    Bethany: It wasn't like I have this much or I have that much. So like when he  saw it, what I, when he like saw it in writing, I had school loans, I had a  personal loan, I had a car loan, and I had a couple credit cards. So it was more  debt than I think he expected. [00:29:00] Um, and so those were the, the two big  things. And we got out of debt.  

    Bethany: And then a couple years after that, like. There were, I don't know,  $4,000 that like I had on a credit card that he, um, that  

    Brian: didn't know  

    Brian: about.  

    Bethany: Didn't know about. Right.  

    Julie: Alright, let's just pause on this because what Bethany is describing is the  foundational rupture in Brian's trust. For an anxious partner like Brian's, safety  is paramount.  

    Julie: To be blindsided by this level of secrecy, especially at a moment of  ultimate commitment, like a wedding, is not just a financial issue, it's a  catastrophic attachment injury. It sends the message, you are not safe with me. I  am not looking out for you. This is the moment where Brian's nervous system  initially learned that he had to be constantly guarded and alert with Bethany  and.  

    Julie: It's the wound [00:30:00] that gets reactivated every time he perceives  dishonesty or feels that his needs are being ignored. So I want you to reflect for  a moment, what does betrayal feel like in your body? Is it a sharp shock, a cold  dread, a hot anger? Understanding our physical response to a breach of trust  helps us understand why these wounds can be so difficult to heal.  

    Julie: Alright, and so these three things it feels like to you, like no matter how  much progress we make here and now in the present, these three things just  keep coming back. Keep coming back every day. Okay. And you're starting to  lose hope that we'll ever actually get through this. You're not really sure what  we need to do to heal some of this or heal it  

    Julie: and,  

    Bethany: yeah. 

    Bethany: Yeah. I mean, I just think like I get, I've owned it, I've apologized, I  have fixed things. And no [00:31:00] matter what, anytime this comes up, it's  just like, I'm, we're here like nine years later and like, it's for me. And, and I, I  

    tell him like, it's just exhausting to hear about it. And I know that makes it seem  like it's insignificant to me and it isn't, but it's like, how long, how, like, I don't  wanna spend the rest of my life with him hearing about this.  

    Bethany: I don't, I don't wanna have our 50th wedding anniversary and have  him come up.  

    Julie: Could you spend, could you spend the rest of your life hearing about  this?  

    Bethany: I  

    Bethany: don't, I don't want to. No.  

    Julie: Okay. So I just want you to say that out loud. Like, I, I couldn't spend the  rest of my life in this place where these things keep coming back at me.  

    Julie: It's not workable for me.  

    Bethany: I just don't, I don't think it's fair. I don't think, it just sounds  exhausting. It sounds exhausting to constantly hear about all of these.  

    Julie: Okay. So can we, can  

    Julie: we agree then? That this stuff has to get worked [00:32:00] through,  because if it doesn't get worked through, we don't get some healing around it,  then it'll just keep popping back up over and over and over in these negative  cycles.  

    Julie: It'll never go away. You'll never escape it. Yeah. And that would be  intolerable. And so I just wanna get to a place where we can all agree that, you  know, if the, the, the therapy is going to keep you guys together, which, you  know, that's still undetermined, but that has a piece of, that has to be that this is  healed because otherwise the relationship can't really go forward.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: And that's my opinion is that it won't be able to go forward with  closeness and what you're both hoping for. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So do you 

    mind then, if, if, you know, I, I wanna make sure that you feel understood, so let  me kind of. Summarize what you told me, and then I'll, if, if you're okay with  that, I wanna go over to him and kind of understand more about what, what  might be blocking him from being able to heal here.  

    Julie: [00:33:00] So you went out, something happened over the weekend, you  planned a date that did not go well. And you know, the, the theme was, is that  this stuff kept coming back at you. It was like, well now you're not giving him  enough attention. And that relates to this one guy that you gave attention to.  

    Bethany: Yes.  

    Julie: And so he's being distant.  

    Julie: So again, here comes the past, haunting us in the present.  Bethany: Right  

    Julie: and how are we supposed to get through this if we're s you know, we  need to have these ex, these positive experiences with spending time together,  but how on earth are we supposed to do that when we've always got this  elephant in the room?  

    Bethany: Right.  

    Bethany: And he has said,  

    Julie: that's not really an  

    Julie: elephant 'cause you're talking about it, but go ahead.  

    Bethany: Right, right. And, and he had said, you know, when we were still  together, you know, when you leave here, I guarantee you that the first person  that gives you any attention, you'll just give them everything that I've been  begging for for so long.  

    Bethany: Um, and he has said that, [00:34:00] and he was like, I told you that  was gonna be true. I told you that was gonna be true. You know, you had all that  attention. I was giving you that attention from me. But it wasn't, I didn't, I didn't  feel, it wasn't just about the attention. It, it, it was, it didn't feel that what he was  giving me at that time or giving me and the baby at that time was what I needed  at that time. 

    Julie: Okay. So again, it's like your reasons for detaching didn't just come from  nowhere.  

    Bethany: Correct.  

    Julie: Okay. And so it doesn't really feel fair when you're getting blamed for,  uh, handling your feelings in a way that you're trying to get your needs met.  

    Bethany: Right, right. And I,  

    Bethany: I feel like it was like, I, I had to pick between taking care of the baby  and taking care of his needs.  

    Bethany: Like when I, that's, that's how I felt. That's how I felt, and that's  [00:35:00] how I still feel now. Like, you know, and, and he has said, you know,  I have to prove to him that I'm in this undoubtedly, and he's not gonna be  number two anymore. And I'm like, how does that work moving forward? Like,  does that mean, you know, I have to be in fear of another negative cycle if our  baby's sick and I have to take care of her, or, you know.  

    Julie: Well, that's what  

    Julie: I was gonna, I was gonna say too, it sounds like you also have unresolved  wounds around this, the wounds that created your detachment and, okay. Yeah.  Those, that time period when the baby was born. And even, you know, the  experience, the event of giving birth was also a major wound for you.  

    Julie: .  

    Julie: Do you wanna go ahead and tell me those details? Just so,  Bethany: yeah.  

    Bethany: Um, so I went into labor three weeks early. Um, he had had a pretty  significant, um, I, what is the word I wanna use? Setback [00:36:00] with, with  the business? The, with the, with the business. Very significant. I don't even  wanna say pretty big. I wanna say very significant setback with the business.  

    Julie: Okay. So he's not in a good place and then you go into it,  

    Bethany: he's not in a good place. Right. Okay. So understandably so. I get that.  Right. So he went out a little bit after work, had some drinks. We had, like, we 

    were eating dinner, having a decent night. He had been drinking my water broke  and. I had to drive myself to the hospital, um, you know, wrapped in a towel.  

    Bethany: Fortunately I wasn't in any pain, but I had to drive myself. And then  we pull in the parking garage because he been, because he had been drinking,  because he had been drinking, pull into the parking garage and he didn't wanna  get out of the car. Like he was like, I'll carry your bags, but I'm gonna come  back to the car.  

    Bethany: And I recognized that he has like a fear of hospitals and all medical  things and it just grosses him out. I get it. But I was like, are you kidding me?  You're gonna just take me in and drop my bags and come back to the [00:37:00] car? Like, so that was that. And then I knew, I really knew going again, that he  likely wouldn't be able to be there for the birth of our daughter, knowing that he  wouldn't be able to tolerate it probably without passing out.  

    Bethany: So, you know, I'm like up all night. This was like, I went into labor at  like nine 30 or something. So I'm up most of the night. He's passed out on the  crappy couch. And you know, when it came time to. To push. And, and I  remember like, they bring out all this stuff, the scissors, knives, whatever, and  he's like, cringing now.  

    Bethany: He was like, I gotta go, I gotta go. Sorry. And so my mom and my  sister had to, had to be there and that, and that was fine, right? I was fine with  that because I would rather him not pass out on the floor in the middle of me  trying to give birth. Um, and I understand that it was traumatic for him. He said  afterwards, like listening to me [00:38:00] scream when he was like in the  hallway with my dad and I pushed for three hours.  

    Bethany: Three hours. Um, and then, and then I don't even think he held her  after she was born. I think he looked at her in like the bassinet and like I was  holding her and he came in and he was like, all right, I'm gonna go. I don't have  any pictures of, of him holding her after she was born. He left because I know  that the dog was home or the dog had been with a sitter.  

    Bethany: Like I have pictures of me holding her. My mom, my sister, my dad,  and none of him.  

    Julie: Okay. Julie, here. So the image Bethany just painted of having no photos  of Brian holding their baby is heartbreaking, and it's a perfect metaphor for the  emotional wound that she sustained. This is the moment her nervous system  learned that in her time of greatest need, she would be left alone For a 

    [00:39:00] more avoidant partner who already struggles to ask for help, this  experience of abandonment is deeply traumatizing.  

    Julie: It forced her into a state of survival where her only option was to shut  down emotionally and become entirely self-sufficient just to care for her child.  This is the root of detachment that Brian struggles with today. It began as a  necessary shield to protect her from unbearable pain. Alright, so take a moment  to think about a time where you felt profoundly alone.  

    Julie: When you expected support, how did you cope? Did you retreat into  yourself? Did you decide in that moment that it was just safer to rely only on  yourself? That is a protective strategy, and it is born from deep hurt and I can  just feel the pain right now. And just that this brings up for you.  

    Bethany: And then she had to go to the NICU for nothing [00:40:00] serious.  

    Bethany: Nothing serious. It was just a precaution. Um, and so that was like,  you know, that was, I wouldn't say it was traumatic for me because I knew it  was nothing serious. It was just precautionary. Um, but that was like. That was  hard. Like I didn't get to bring my baby home. I got to come home, sleep in my  bed, which in some ways I think was good because I did leave her at night  because I knew that I needed to, to get my rest, and I knew that I wouldn't  probably get the best rest in hospital.  

    Bethany: So I was, I made the decision to come home every night, but I would  go there for, you know, like 12 to 14 hours a day. And he came to visit I think  once or twice, but he had to be here to take care of his older daughter, which  again, was fine. Right. I knew that he doesn't, like, I know that he doesn't like  hospitals and that was fine, but it was like, you know, a week it was, she was in  there a week and then it was, and then we came home and, [00:41:00] you  know, he had to go back to work on Monday, like his week off was taking care  of his older daughter while our baby was in the nicu.  

    Bethany: And that was fine. We, we divided and conquered, but like he went  back to work. I was here by myself, which was probably better, but it was, I  don't, I can't describe it. And then like, because he was in such a bad place, you  know, he didn't really want to have anything to do with the baby. I'm not saying,  you know, just like I would tell him to talk to her and he'd be like, what do I  say?  

    Bethany: She can't understand. He would walk, like if she was in a swing or in  a bassinet, he would walk by and like, not touch her, not kiss her. I had to like, 

    you know, he never really willingly picked her up. And, and I know that he also  isn't necessarily a baby person, but like, I'm not asking you to hold her all the  time.  

    Bethany: I'm just asking you to acknowledge her presence. And at the time,  even the other day, I brought this up and I was like, you walked by her. Like she  was in her swing and he was like, she had a swing. I don't remember a  [00:42:00] swing. So like, it's just that stuff.  

    Julie: Okay. All right. And so there's just so much pain in this place that you're  talking about right now.  

    Julie: There's a lot of betrayal in in there.  

    Bethany: Yeah. I don't  

    Bethany: think he understands how much  

    Bethany: that affected so many things, and I don't know what I expected. I  mean, I knew that he didn't want another baby. I knew that, but he said he  wanted to do it for me because I wanted one. But know we had the 9-year-old at  the time, and that was like, that's a big  

    Bethany: setback.  

    Julie: And  

    Julie: you  

    Julie: can, you can come up with,  

    Julie: you know, a lot of, a lot of good reasons why it, it ended up like this, why  you guys found yourself in this place. Right. You know, you say, look, he has a  fear of blood and hospital stuff. And then you say, look, I know he's not a baby  person. And I think what we have talked about before when I met with you  individually is that he shows up now.  

    Julie: Right, right. And so, but at the time you [00:43:00] didn't really know  that, and so you're just kind of observing all this as this, you know, you're  connected to the baby and you want, of course you want. Her dad to be  connected to her and also now you're alone in all of this. 

    Bethany: Yeah. And I couldn't, I couldn't leave the house because we  Bethany: had a puppy and the dog had to go again.  

    Julie: You can  

    Julie: have, again,  

    Julie: you can, you can name all these good reasons. Yeah. Why life happens  and he's in his own bad spot. But at the end of the day, there's just a lot of pain  around this. There's so much pain and it's in you and it's not out of you and it's  not healed. And you know, I know in this relationship you're playing defense a  lot, right?  

    Julie: You're kind of fielding his complaints about you. Do you, when do you  kind of put words to the fact that you've got these wounds to I've tried. Okay. So  you have tried and then what are you met with in this cycle? Right.  

    Bethany: Um,  

    Bethany: I met with, I [00:44:00] created a segregation,  

    Bethany: um. And the, the, the house became me and the baby and him and the  older daughter.  

    Bethany: Um, you know, I didn't realize how much work he was picking up  because I wasn't doing enough. Um,  

    Julie: so when  

    Julie: you try to reach  

    Julie: and you try to get some comfort around this and some healing around  this, then you're just met with blame.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. Like, it's your fault. It's your fault. And what's that like?  

    Bethany: It's hard because I don't think he understands how much that hurt me,  how much that hurt me. And I, I, I guess I truly thought that maybe seeing our 

    baby's face would, would make him soften because it was like made out of love.  You know, a baby who was made out of love, out of a marriage, not out of  wedlock in a different situation than, you know, his older daughter.  

    Bethany: But it, but it didn't, [00:45:00] and I just felt like, is this the way that  this is gonna be forever? Like, is he never gonna bond with this baby? And you  know, I had a, I had a dad who stayed home with me starting at six weeks when  my mom went back to work. It's just circumstances played out where I had that,  and I'm not asking for him to be my dad.  

    Bethany: I fully knew that was not gonna be the case.  

    Julie: I mean, even,  

    Julie: even, let's just say you had the,  

    Julie: you know, worst relationship with your dad. Possible. Like everybody  wants the father of their child to bond with the child. That's just a normal human  thing. Right?  

    Bethany: Right, right.  

    Julie: But, but then on top of that, you did actually have a very good  relationship with your dad, and that was your experience.  

    Julie: And of course you would want that to be duplicated.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: And so again, we have all these good reasons why this period of time  you're just feeling completely alone with it all. And that takes you to a really  bad place when you start remembering all of that. Yeah. And so when he brings  up [00:46:00] his pains, then you're over here going, wait, what about my pains  that were, you know, kind of partially contributed to all the stuff that he's upset  about?  

    Julie: Some of, I mean, I know the financial stuff is a different topic, but  Bethany: Right, right.  

    Julie: And so then you're over here scrambling around trying to heal him, but  you're also raw yourself. Yeah. And just like we, you know, we need to make 

    this agreement that, you know, we are able to bring some healing to his wounds.  I wonder if we can also make an agreement that we need to create some willing  healing for your wounds.  

    Bethany: Yeah, absolutely.  

    Julie: Okay.  

    Bethany: Absolutely.  

    Julie: And if you didn't get that healing, I'm assuming it would be almost  impossible for you to ever fully feel close. And trust because you're, you're also  kind of walking around waiting for the next moment, or a afraid of the next  moment where you might see an interaction with him and the baby, and that's  gonna trigger all this stuff.  

    Bethany: [00:47:00] Yeah.  

    Julie: Yeah. Okay. And so there's a lot of mistrust built up here.  

    Bethany: Yeah. And I, and I, I, I really feel that if some of those things had  existed, we probably wouldn't be where we are. If what things had existed, like  a, a, a bonding with the baby or an understanding of what it was like to be stuck  at home in the winter with a, a, a, a puppy and a newborn, and not being able to  leave the house and, you know.  

    Bethany: I, I don't him just not under, like, being banished from the living room  because the baby was fussing because he wanted peace after work or things like,  you know, isn't that why you have a nursery so that you can breastfeed in there?  Or, you know, the baby sleeps next to the bed so the mom doesn't have to get up  at night.  

    Bethany: But yes, we did that, but I still had to get up at night because he was  sleeping right. And didn't wanna be disturbed with the whole thing. So the baby  would wake [00:48:00] up, I would walk to her room, I would nurse her, and  then I would come back.  

    Julie: It wasn't just you felt  

    Julie: alone. You actually felt rejected.  

    Bethany: Yes. 

    Julie: Okay.  

    Julie: And you're saying to me, look, if if none of that would've happened and I  didn't have all these abandonment wounds around that, then maybe we'd be in a  different place now. Yeah. What would be different? Because I know we'd still  have some of his stuff,  

    Julie: right?  

    Bethany: For sure.  

    Bethany: For sure. Yeah. I think that he wouldn't feel as though.  

    Bethany: I was neglecting him, or I neglected him because I would've actually  wanted to spend time with him. Or if he had just even understood that if he, if  he could have just understood that, you know, sometimes babies don't fall  asleep as easily as, as we want them to. Or I've fell asleep holding her in the  chair because I'm [00:49:00] exhausted too.  

    Bethany: And that left him waiting in the living room for, you know, two hours  when I didn't even know I fell asleep for two hours, you know, and there's, there  was no understanding for those situations. It was all just, I picked the baby over  him and I left him to his own devices and I left him out there. By himself to  

    hang out and to be alone, where he felt isolated and he felt abandoned and he  felt neglected.  

    Julie: What  

    Julie: would've happened though, if you didn't disconnect?  

    Julie: If you didn't find a place of emotional disconnection? I wanna know  what, what the purpose, what the function of that disconnection was for you.  You're walking around, you're feeling alone with it, you're feeling rejected. I  mean, it's a devastating place.  

    Julie: What you're describing is, is a devastating, awful place to be. So what  would've happened if I, if what if you didn't dis you are saying to me, look, I, I  disconnected my body, disconnected from him. I don't know that it was a  conscious choice, but it happened. [00:50:00] Right? And then that led to this  kind of ev, these series of events where he's now feeling like on the outs and  like you emotionally abandoned him. 

    Julie: But  

    Bethany: I think in some ways I tried to keep  

    Bethany: that connection a little bit.  

    Julie: Mm-hmm.  

    Bethany: I did the best, I did the best that I could. Let's put it that way.  Bethany: Right? So, you know,  

    Julie: So  

    Julie: you're trying not to let all this get you. You're down, right? You're trying,  you're trying, you're trying. But no matter how hard you tried, still those, those  feelings were terrible.  

    Julie: And still the disconnection came. And what my experience is, is that  usually people don't kind of make a conscious choice to disconnect. They, they,  their body gets to the point of so many hurts, so many let downs, so many  disappointments that it just sort of, you stop expecting.  

    Bethany: Right  

    Julie: okay.  

    Bethany: Right.  

    Julie: And, and so I wanna know what would've happened if your body didn't  just disconnect.  

    Julie: How would've that been in that period of time? Like, I'm, I'm trying to  kind of, um, help us see [00:51:00] that that disconnection was, there's a, there  was a good function of it, right?  

    Bethany: It was like a safety net. Um, yeah.  

    Julie: What  

    Julie: was safe about the disconnection? 

    Bethany: If I didn't disconnect, I don't, I don't know. I don't even know if there  was any other option.  

    Julie: You would've just chronically been let down, you would've still had  expectations. You would've, yeah. I mean, I, I like when you disconnected. Was  that, did that help you just go, go into, okay, I'm on my own here. I'm just gonna  have to go forward and,  

    Bethany: oh, yeah, because yeah. I mean, I, I had no choice, right? I had a, I  had a,  

    Bethany: a  

    Bethany: new baby, right?  

    Julie: So the disconnection actually kept you going in some way. It helped you  keep your head above water, so everything just didn't fall apart. Right? Because  what would it have been like to take care of the baby, a newborn and continued  to be let down and disappointed and devastated and feel alone? I guess what I'm  

    saying is sometimes it's better just to let go and  

    Bethany: Yeah, I [00:52:00] probably, if I  

    Bethany: would've focused on that too, I probably would've.  

    Bethany: I, and I don't know, like I probably would've ended up with  postpartum depression, but I was truly like the happiest I had ever been because  I had my baby and like I.  

    Julie: So you, you were able to get to survive and not only survive, but you  know, thrive with this time with the baby and bond with the baby.  

    Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.  

    Julie: And if you hadn't, that could have been an even darker place that could  have sent you  

    Julie: into a real black hole of depression.  

    Bethany: Yeah, she was keeping me going. She was the only thing that made  me happy. 

    Julie: Right.  

    Julie: So he sees it as just,  

    Julie: you know, you randomly loving the baby more or just kind of choosing to  give up on him, but that, that's really not what, what happened.  

    Julie: It sounds like there's only so much, you know, someone can, there's only  so much pain [00:53:00] someone can take.  

    Bethany: Right. Right.  

    Julie: Does that feel new to you to see it in that way, that this was your body's  way of. Keeping you safe and keeping your daughter safe from depression?  

    Bethany: Yes  

    Bethany: and no. But I think I saw it like that anyhow.  

    Bethany: I had no choice not to forge ahead.  

    Julie: You already knew that.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: Yeah. But, but so what feels important is that you wish he could see it in  that way.  

    Bethany: Right?  

    Julie: Because if he can't see it in that way, there's only one other alternative  explanation that you're kind of just, you know, randomly ignoring him or doing  all this on purpose.  

    Bethany: Right.  

    Julie: And that doesn't feel right.  

    Bethany: Right. 

    Julie: Okay. And so if you're feeling kind of heard around this I'd, I'd like to go  over there and kind of understand a little bit more. You know, now that I know  more about your wounds and what you're carrying around. [00:54:00] It sounds  

    to me like what you're needing around this, and we're not gonna process this  right now.  

    Julie: We'll go into it later when the timing is right. But you're needing to, to  know for your hurt to be seen here.  

    Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. And it sounds like you both are feeling some of very similar  feelings around this.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. So do you mind if I switch over and just kind of understand more  about what's kind of blocking him? Okay. All right. So Brian, I know you know,  we've talked some about how you have these past wounds. Can we agree that  these are past wounds that I'm, I'm guessing you do want to get past them too,  but somehow they can just be coming back.  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah. . I really do.  

    Julie: Okay. And so let's just kind of. You know, do you agree that [00:55:00] there's kind of three main things here. One is the, um, the money issue, and two  is, uh, her having whatever kind of relationship she was having with these two  other guys that has left you feeling like you were just kind of the, the la third  and then last option, the third fiddle.  

    Brian: Yeah. There, there's that piece. Okay.  

    Julie: And then we have,  

    Brian: I wouldn't even say it. The third one is really that much of an issue. I, I  think the main,  

    Julie: what's  

    Julie: the third one? 

    Brian: Like when we were separated, we both, you know. Okay. Did lived her  own lives. She linked up with an old boyfriend.  

    Julie: Okay. And do you, is it, is there some wounding around when the baby  was born and you feeling like you got put on the back burner?  

    Brian: Yeah, big time.  

    Julie: Okay. All right. So, you know, I, I guess I just would like to start with,  you know, there's a, [00:56:00] there's a lot of mistrust, right? Like  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: You're kind of always feeling like, when's, when am I gonna find myself  back in this position again?  

    Brian: Um, yeah. It, it's just, it's sort of always there. Um, like, it was like just  bam, bam, bam, all these things. It was a couple months before we were to get  married, you know, I had just found out that like, the reason we didn't start  dating, like the summer before we actually started dating was that she had these  other, um, you know, flings, whatever you wanna call them.  

    Brian: And then it just seemed like when she took a job closer to me, then it  was like, oh, it was like convenient. And then, but it was sort of like a, like a  storyline behind all of it. Like she sort of like pounded it in my [00:57:00] head  that it was like we were 2 33 35 year olds that like, we had like our own  successes.  

    Brian: We had houses, cars, careers, whatever. And then we, the only thing that  we didn't have was just like a significant other. And then like to sort of find out  that it, that was like sort of a fallacy was concerning to me. Mm-hmm. And then  

    I think I found out like maybe two months before we were gonna get married,  so like that put a damper on things.  

    Brian: And then like, you know, she mentioned like selling the condo and like  at the time we were 35 years old. We didn't need to have some grandiose  wedding. Like I, I, I was happy with just like friends and fa like small friends  and family. And instead it was pitched at like, you know, we had a band and the,  the whole, the whole day was like 35, $40,000.  

    Brian: And to me it was just [00:58:00] like frivolous spending. And, uh, there  was a lot of arguments throughout that that I just sort of threw my hands up. 

    And, but the big kicker was the day before we got married, we had the prenup  drafted and she blew all of her house money. And not even five months, like  we're talking like nearly $30,000 and five months, just like gone.  

    Brian: And I thought we had agreed that we weren't gonna touch it and figure  out what, you know, just let it sit. And then I had also thought that like, you  know, she did. Kept with her finances and she had her stuff together. And then  the, like I said, the day before we're supposed to get married, um, like $115,000  in like frivolous credit card bills, student loans, car, a personal loan to  consolidate credit card [00:59:00] loans.  

    Brian: And  

    Julie: so you didn't, you had no idea about all of this,  

    Brian: no idea  

    Julie: this, so you're just kind of blindsided by it.  

    Brian: Blindside.  

    Brian: Completely blindsided. And, and we're supposed to get married like  maybe 36 hours from this point. And I almost didn't show up to the wedding.  Like, I, I literally thought, I don't wanna do this.  

    Brian: My gut told me like, this is bad. This, this is not gonna go well. And  Julie: what was the fear that would happen? What did all of this mean to you?  

    Brian: Well, first, first and foremost, it was a tremendous breach of trust. Like  about serious, serious stuff. Like, to me, it would've been no different than to  find out that she had slept with someone the night before we got married.  

    Brian: Like it was a major breach of trust to me. And  

    Julie: so this is big for you.  

    Brian: Oh, it was huge,  

    Brian: you know, and, and we got two, 300 people showing up. They got suits,  got hotel rooms, got gift cards, got everything. And like, [01:00:00] I'm 

    supposed to be the person that's gonna just rain down on the parade and be like,  I, I just can't do this.  

    Brian: You know, I just can't do this. Um, but I think we were, we got married  anyways and we were in counseling probably within two weeks of this all  happening. Um, and then it was the, the first year of marriage was basically  instead of like. Giddy and loving and, and like going on a honeymoon and just  enjoying each other.  

    Brian: It was like, we're we're strapped. You know what I mean? Because I  gotta wipe out this debt and I don't like to have debt unless it's like good debt,  like things that make you money or an apartment building or a rental or a house.  You know, things like that. Like, I just don't think that people need to have  $10,000 in credit cards for, uh, to get Kohl's cash.  

    Brian: You know? I, I just don't, I don't operate like that.  

    Julie: Okay. And so what did [01:01:00] you, you know, what is the fear there  around money for you?  

    Brian: I mean, growing up poor, like, it's, it's always been tough. So like,  everything you gotta work for, and I just don't take it for granted. And I just, I  don't live my life like, I run my life like a business like.  

    Brian: You know, you, you make a hundred dollars a month, you don't spend  150 or 120. Like, it's just, it's common.  

    Julie: So part  

    Julie: of your, so part of your just feeling secure in life  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Is, you know, revolves around feeling safe financially. Yeah. It's just not  in your vocabulary at all to spend money out you, you know, to spend a lot of  money outside of investments or whatever.  

    Julie: Good, good debt as you  

    Julie: call it. 

    Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, if I don't have the money to buy something, I  don't buy it.  

    Julie: And so you, you think [01:02:00] you guys are on the same page, right?  Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: And then all of a sudden, bam, right before the wedding, you get wind of  this and that's where, is this where this betrayal, this first betrayal happened?  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that pretty much set the tone. It wasn't just the day  before the wedding and the day after the wedding. It was, it was now the first  year of combating, getting rid of this debt. So,  

    Julie: so, so for this whole year, every time you make a payment, you have to  be reminded of this.  

    Brian: Yes.  

    Julie: And if, if we just stick with the emotional piece again, it just, it's, it's a  betrayal.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: So if you could just help me understand, like, the moment you found out  this, you know, you get wind of this, what was that like for you?  

    Brian: It was horrible. I felt like a fool. Um, you know, I, I felt like with  Bethany, I feel like I, if I'm a detective, I can [01:03:00] only, if I ask her a  question, I have to hit all of the bullet points of the truth or the lie for her to  confess and just shoot me straight.  

    Brian: She won't.  

    Julie: So  

    Julie: it seems like there's a lot of information being withheld.  Brian: Yes.  

    Julie: And. 

    Julie: Then that takes you every time this happens, that takes your nervous  system back to this major blow. Yeah, this major.  

    Brian: I, I've, I've felt, um, like I always have to be guarded and I have to be  alert, uh, with what she's doing.  

    Brian: She's very secretive. Um, you know, with that credit card that came up  like a year or two a or the, the winter or so after we got married, which is like  anywhere from 12 to 14 months, she didn't tell me that she was back into credit  card debt again. I had to find out the hard way again. And  

    Julie: okay, so you decide to go through with this and you [01:04:00] commit  to, you know, getting through it even though it was extremely painful and then  bam, you find yourself back in that spot.  

    Brian: Yes.  

    Julie: Okay. And, and so to this day, and, and there are some other things that  have happened too, but to this day, you feel like you still get in these situations  where she's withholding some information or she's being secretive.  

    Brian: Mm-hmm.  

    Julie: And it's not just about that moment, but it also goes back to this big event  that happened in the past.  

    Brian: Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the, to the, the two guys. Like prior to, um,  uh, us actually dating, you know, it's, it's, it's the, the money. Like, you know,  why, why would you mislead me to have this grandiose wedding when you  knew you didn't have the money and you knew you were gonna have to spend  the money from the money pile that we said we weren't gonna touch until post  marriage.[01:05:00]  

    Julie: Okay. So it all, it all really circles back to this dishonesty.  Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: And then, okay. And so then you get messages from, you know what she's  doing, that she's not being honest with you.  

    Brian: Yeah. 

    Julie: Then it keeps happening over and over and, or even if it doesn't really  keep happening, you're still kind of always having to be alert for, you're always  walking around afraid that it's gonna happen.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Right. So you can really kind of never feel at ease. And then,  

    Brian: because I always have to pick up the bill, because if she's in credit card  debt, that means that she doesn't have the money to pay for the entire bill. So  who has to pick it up? Me. And I'm just tired of,  

    Julie: I  

    Julie: think, I think if it was just about money, you could probably get past it.  

    Julie: But it's not just about money, it's about the emotional betrayal. It's, does  she really care about my needs over here?  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Okay.  

    Brian: And it's the communication, you know, [01:06:00]  

    Julie: can I, can I trust her to be honest with me? Yeah. Because what happens  if you can't trust her?  

    Brian: Then there's no, there's no foundation for a marriage at that point.  

    Brian: I mean, and after the, the second credit card came up, I was ready to file  for divorce, and this is before our, our baby was born. Uh, i, it, it was just fool  me once, you know that, that adage, you know, she fooled me twice at that point  and I should have just ended it right there.  

    Julie: Okay.  

    Julie: And so instead of ending it, you decided to keep, to keep going and try to  make it work. And part of you really, really wants to do that. But what you're  finding is, is you can't seem to get that trust back. 

    Brian: No.  

    Julie: And so then how, and then what happens is, is you're always kind of on  alert and then you guys are trying to have a good time together.  

    Julie: And like even the littlest [01:07:00] thing might happen and bam, you go  back to the bad place.  

    Brian: Sometimes Yes,  

    Julie: not always. That doesn't define the relationship, but it happens enough of  the time.  

    Brian: Yeah. I mean, in, in light of talking about the birth of our daughter, um,  you know, I, I feel that she tips the scales to that being so hard for her.  

    Brian: But like I had to bear the cross for, I think by the time that she was born,  it was like maybe five years that we were married at that point, four years that  we were married at that point. And I had to sit and do it by myself and figure it  out, and then all of a sudden it goes back to second rate citizen, your feelings  don't matter.  

    Brian: Like even though you've been doing this for four years and this is your  behavior for two months, mine is more important. And it just, then [01:08:00] those things,  

    Julie: so kind of like, it's  

    Julie: kind of like what she's saying. She's saying, look, I had some pretty good  reasons to go to this bad emotional place and detach and, and then  

    Brian: yeah,  

    Julie: you're saying, look, I've, same story, I have the same narrative.  

    Julie: I felt the same way. I felt betrayed, I felt detached, and it was hard for me  to show up when I was in that place.  

    Brian: Yeah. She didn't, she wasn't empathetic whatsoever. She, she would go  like cold stare whenever I would confront her about it. It was, it was  emotionless. Okay. It it like, it didn't matter to her. 

    Julie: All right. So you didn't feel like you were getting any real support or help  with your feelings around what had happened?  

    Brian: No, not really.  

    Julie: And that really impacted you. And  

    Julie: then we have this, the baby, and that was kind of still. You know, you  were still in this really [01:09:00] difficult place and that impacted your ability  to emotionally engage fully when the baby was born.  

    Brian: Well, I think in our one-on-one, we, we spoke of it, um, and she spoke of  it today that the, the day that her water broke, um, I was building, uh, a building  for my business and the state had come and shut it down, and then seven hours  later we were at the hospital. And, um, you know, the state was threatening to  sue me.  

    Brian: You know, and, and when you start thinking about that, I'm just, I'm just  a little person, you know, and I'm, I'm trying at this point, I'm, I'm at the hospital  about to bring another life into this world, and I'm realizing that I might not  even have a life, you know, like. This might be all wiped out. Like all my  apartments, all my business, like the [01:10:00] last 15 to 20 years of working  hard to get to this point is just gone.  

    Brian: Like, I mean, devastating. And then then how much money is this gonna  cost between surveys and contracts and, uh, blueprints and fines and lawyer  fees? And am I gonna be able to keep up with this? And then, then on top of it,  like we, we sit around and go through all this stuff that, that normal, like parents  or, you know, adults that are about to have a baby.  

    Brian: And then you find out that like your baby isn't coming home with you.  Like, and, and I had like all these questions, like it just seemed like somebody  was. Not telling me the truth that something was really wrong, but they wanted  to protect me from what could possibly happen. And [01:11:00] then it's like I  

    still have like my business going and my employees and, and I have now this  huge mess with the state and, and then now it's my week with my other  daughter and I'm having to take care of her.  

    Brian: And like my mind is just in 50 places I can't focus. And when, when, uh,  she spoke of like not wanting to have another baby and me giving in, it was just,  I was just to the point in my life and my business that like I really just didn't 

    have any more time to devote. Um, everything was so demanding between all  the hats that I wear and.  

    Brian: Juggling it all to make everybody happy. And I realized that this was a  happy moment, but like my world, and I would've thought our world was  [01:12:00] collapsing or about to collapse, and she just was so caught up in  

    Julie: it's  

    Julie: easy to kind of now look back and go, yeah, this is supposed to be a  happy moment. But it sounds like you were pretty overwhelmed and terrified  about a lot of things, and on top of that, now you're a dad and you have another  child to take care of and Yeah.  

    Brian: Yeah, it was, it was overwhelming. It was just unbelievably  overwhelming and, and the fear of just losing it all, just, it made me detach from  like the goodness that we just brought home. You know? It, it, it just like, I. I  just looked at her  

    Julie: just in the way  

    Julie: that Bethany had to detach to stay, to keep her head above water with her  responsibilities.  

    Julie: It sounds like you were in a similar position.  

    Brian: Very much so. We both agreed. We both agreed to that. It's just we,  [01:13:00] she wouldn't help me and I wouldn't help her, and she couldn't see  my perspective and I couldn't see hers. And like from my perspective, it was, it,  yeah, she could give her a bottle and breastfeed and, and do bath time and so on  and so forth.  

    Brian: But if we didn't have a home to do that in, then what did, what did any  of this matter? Like, we couldn't do this in a parking lot or in the back of a  Subaru. Like, like that was my job, was to provide a home. And with that being  jeopardized, I, I just was in a really bad place, you know? And. It just was really  tough.  

    Julie: Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot of layers here. There's a lot of really  bad stuff that was going on in this moment. And again, I mean, [01:14:00] on  top of all of this, on top of kind of the financial and trauma and fear and all this 

    stuff that you're going through when the baby's born, you also have all these  kind of wounds from earlier on that you're having to deal with.  

    Brian: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It just, it, it hasn't been an easy run with us for  these, these seven years. You know, it's, I'm not saying it's, it's the worst, but,  you know, I'm sure a lot of people have it worse, but the timing of it all, it just,  it was crippling, you know?  

    Julie: Right. So you guys have been through a lot together, more than, you  know, more than your fair share, right?  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Right. And so you have all this emotional stuff going on, and now here  you are and you're trying to work through it and you know, you're trying to  reach each other and find each other. But there's all these blocks and partially  these blocks are from all this, these past events. And, you know, I'm just  curious, like, do you feel [01:15:00] that with the right kind of, you know,  interactions with Bethany, do you feel you could ever heal from these things?  

    Brian: I hope to. I I really do. I mean, when, when things were good, um, it, it  was the, it was the best I probably have ever experienced and  

    Julie: Okay. So we do have something that we can try to work back to.  Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Like we've said, that's not new, but so. I just wanna know right now, and  I, and I know the answer's yes, but I just wanna make it abundantly clear.  

    Julie: Both of you recognize that these wounds are major blocks and they are  driving negative cycles even, even just this weekend.  

    Bethany: Yeah.  

    Brian: Yeah. They come up almost constantly.  

    Julie: Right. These little things that happen or get said can bam, get so big and  remind you of the [01:16:00] past.  

    Brian: Mm-hmm. 

    Julie: Mm-hmm. And if you hadn't had these wounds, I'm going to, um, assume  here that you guys would be able to tolerate a little more imperfection.  

    Brian: Yeah. I, I think we did, you know? . For the most part, like prior to our  daughter being born. .  

    Julie: Like if, like, for example, you know, when she had the surgery last  weekend or two weekends ago, and. Brian, something you felt kind of dropped  or you felt like your expectations were, um, you know, not, not lived up to, um,  do you think that situation would've been more tolerable?  

    Julie: Like, oh, we can just get through the weekend and talk about it later if  you weren't carrying around the burden of all these old wounds?  

    Brian: Yeah. Yeah, I do think so. But you know whose life is [01:17:00] perfect  anyways. You know, I mean, everyone's gonna have wounds. It's,  

    Julie: well, these are some pretty big wounds and it really doesn't matter.  

    Julie: You know? A betrayal is a betrayal, right? Our bodies are designed to  mistrust when we get betrayed.  

    Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: People might get betrayed over different things. Your betrayals might  happen around, you know, money and someone else might not experience that  at all around money, but they get be, you know, feel betrayed around some other  circumstance.  

    Julie: But a betrayal is a betrayal. It causes your nervous system to go into a  state of fear, right? Because you're always waiting for the, you know, the next  time it might happen, you, it's a painful, painful place to be. You feel alone, you  feel dropped, you feel abandoned.  

    Brian: Mm-hmm.  

    Julie: So understandably you're gonna be hypervigilant, um, of anything that  comes along in the future that might remind you of those events and go, okay,  here we are again, and you're gonna go into [01:18:00] some negative cycle  move to try to prevent it from happening, to try to prevent some future pain in  going back to that place. 

    Brian: Mm-hmm. Definitely.  

    Julie: And  

    Julie: these are the things that drive the protest and the defensiveness and all of  it. And. So anyway, we, we have to get, you know, we're not gonna be able to  heal this overnight. But, um, you know, that, that's probably one of our, you  know, is our main goal I think of the therapy is see if we can work through this  stuff together.  

    Julie: And I guess more than anything right now, like I said, I want you to  recognize that these negative cycles are driven by, you know, to a large degree  for you guys by all this stuff that happened in the past, you probably could  survive the, the present day challenges much better. You'd be in a much better  position to survive those and work through those.  

    Julie: Um, but they have, they have taken, they take on so much more meaning.  And [01:19:00] then the other thing is, um, I want you to understand that both  of your mistrust has a really important function that neither of you are choosing  this mistrust. There's actually wisdom in the mistrust that mistrust is trying to  keep you safe.  

    Julie: But the problem is, is the mistrust is also blocking connection.  Brian: Yeah.  

    Julie: Mm-hmm. Does it feel at least that, you know, are you guys at least able  to kind of have some shared empathy around the fact that you're both really  stuck in this place of like wanting this connection but also having to experience  this wall of mistrust within yourselves?  

    Julie: I mean, that's a pretty awful place to be for both of you.  Bethany: I think so,  

    Brian: yeah.  

    Julie: Okay. Alright, well we'll go ahead and end there and we'll just pick back  up and keep trying to forge through this together.  

    Bethany: Thank 

    Bethany: you.  

    Brian: Okay. Thank you so much. [01:20:00]  

    Julie: Alright, let's just take a moment to sit with everything we just heard.  

    Julie: The emotional truth of their history just came into the room. Bethany's  hidden grief over feeling alone during one of life's most vulnerable moments.  And we heard the story of Brian's broken trust, and these feelings are alive  today. Contaminating. Every present moment between them. So we're not  healing today, but getting the stories out is the beginning.  

    Julie: So you're probably wondering, what does healing all of this even look  like? So four things. One, we need for them to be able to talk to each other  outside of negative cycles about these wounds. That means you using  vulnerability and healthy assertion instead of just blame and protest and  defensiveness and constant interruptions.  

    Julie: And if they can do that, they'll get somewhere. Then two, they need to be  able to lean into each other's experiences. You know, this is part of talking about  it outside of negative cycles. To be outside of negative cycles, we do need to be  [01:21:00] able to lean into each other's experiences. Um, and three, we need to  create positive cycles around the event.  

    Julie: Meaning even though the pain is real, they can use it as an opportunity to  hear and understand and validate each other and actually get a bonding  experience outta it. Remember, the most painful events have the most emotional  energy, um, to also be the most bonding. If we can get this right and get them,  you know, communicating about this with health and four, you know, we need  to do going forward, anything else that this, these wounds are needing to heal  and rebuild trust.  

    Julie: Obviously this is whatever behavior change needs to happen to prevent it  from happening again. And some wounds need other things, like maybe one  partner needs to know that when the wound gets triggered by something they  think about or see, or whatever, some reminder. It's safe to bring it up and get  comfort that they aren't going to be told you should just get over [01:22:00] it.  

    Julie: And of course we don't want couples to have to keep talking about these  wounds ad nauseum that's not healthy either, and is a sign that the wound is not  healed and still is still crying to be healed. But healing isn't necessarily a one  and done thing. And paradoxically, the more a partner feels, they can bring it up 

    and get support and that and that conversation will be successful, the less likely  over time that they'll need to bring it up.  

    Julie: So in the homework, I'll have some explorative questions for you about  any attachment wounds that you and your partner might be carrying in your  relationship. As always, we'd love to hear your reflections, so please, you know,  send a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and we  might feature your story in a future episode.  

    Julie: So thank you for joining me today. Thank you to Bethany and Brian for  their vulnerability and what you heard was the hard, messy, and you know,  absolutely necessary work of bringing these old wounds into light. Until next  time, take care of yourselves and your [01:23:00] relationships.

 
Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/
Previous

Session 8: Why Do We Lie?
Next

Session 6: Can a Relationship Ever Really Be 50-50?