Session 4: Why Does Leaving Feel Better Than Staying?

What happens when the fear of being hurt makes leaving feel safer than staying? This week, we dive deep into Brian and Bethany’s journey as Brian shares a distressing dream and a painful childhood memory that reveal the roots of his mistrust and his instinct to detach when he feels trapped.

We explore how Brian’s nervous system drives him to make empty threats to leave, leaving Bethany hurt and confused, while underneath, his fear of abandonment and betrayal runs deep. This session highlights how these reactive moments aren’t attempts to hurt each other, but survival strategies masking vulnerabilities that need healing.

This episode is a powerful reminder that the fears and wounds beneath conflict don’t create new problems—they expose the ones already there. The central challenge becomes clear: can Brian and Bethany learn to turn toward each other’s fear, instead of letting it drive them apart?

This week’s prompt: Reflect on a time when fear made you want to pull away from your partner. What was the deeper need or vulnerability underneath that fear?

Send your responses to this prompt or any questions or comments about the podcast via email or voice note to support@thesecurerelationship.com. Your submission might be featured on a future episode.

• Follow Julie Menanno on social media @thesecurerelationship.

• For weekly homework assignments visit our website: The Secure Relationship Podcast

• Take Julie's Anxious Attachment Course: Anxious Attachment: Self-Work Course

• Purchase Julie's book Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime

• Transcript

  Session 4: Why Does Leaving Feel  Better Than Staying?

  [00:00:00] Julie: Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast.  I'm your host, Julie Mennano. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and  author of the book, secure Love Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime. So  we're working here with Bethany and Brian, a struggling couple, trying to work  through their insecurely attached relationship.  

  [00:00:23] Julie: They're showing up with bravery and a willingness to be  vulnerable, and I'm taking it from there by using emotionally focused therapy  for couples, which is an attachment based therapy to help them navigate from  insecure to secure. So today we're exploring one of the most painful questions  in a struggling relationship.  

  [00:00:43] Julie: When does leaving feel safer than staying? For so many of us,  when the fear of being hurt, misunderstood, or abandoned becomes too great,  the instinct to detach and impulsively say things like, well, I'm just done with  this, can be very overwhelming. It's a [00:01:00] survival strategy to make  impulsive threats, but they come at the cost of the very connection that we're  longing for.  

  [00:01:07] Julie: So in today's session, Brian shares a distressing dream that can  be seen as a metaphor for his real world experience. He's trying to squeeze  through a tight space to escape and only to find Bethany blocking his way. So  this dream becomes the gateway to unpacking a core injury that fuels his  mistrust. A painful memory involving a physical accident with a refrigerator  door, a friend he calls the adulterer calling the police, and Brian's profound  sense of being betrayed and criminalized by those closest to him.  

  [00:01:41] Julie: This might sound like bigger issues than what you are facing  in your relationship, but the themes will be the same misunderstandings,  especially those that involve friends or extended family relationships that fuel  feelings of betrayal and resentment that aren't getting the healing that they  [00:02:00] need. So all of these threads weave together in this episode to reveal  Brian's deepest pattern when the pressure builds and he feels trapped, his  nervous system tells him to run, and then he starts making empty, or at least  partially empty threats.  

  [00:02:15] Julie: This, of course leaves Bethany confused and hurt. And so  we're gonna help Brian learn a better way to manage the vulnerabilities 

  underlying his reactive words. When I talk to Brian about his deepest fears, a lot  of them surround the potential loss he faces and how much he fears how  horrible it will be for him if it plays out like that.  

  [00:02:37] Julie: So try not to say to yourself, well, I'm not fearing loss. That's  not relatable. And instead, focus on what you do. Fear all triggers are rooted in a  deepest fear. Your fear might just be, you know, underneath this anger and  resentment that I feel about how things are, is the fear that things will never  change and that I'll just continue walking [00:03:00] around the relationship and  definitely feeling my, like my needs aren't getting met.  

  [00:03:05] Julie: That means I'll just keep circling back to a sad, lonely place  over and over, and maybe those times are few enough and the good outweighs  the bad, but still those moments are awful and I just don't wanna keep going  there, and so I protest or I shut down, or I push away my partner's concerns, or  whatever it is you do when a need goes unmet and that fear comes to find you.  

  [00:03:26] Julie: So just pay attention to this. As you listen, what is your  deepest fear? And that brings us to one of my favorite parts of the show where  we get to hear from you, the listener. So first up we have a voice note where our  listener asks about what I like to call moving target, a moving target response  from Brian.  

  [00:03:46] Julie: So let's hear from Lana.  

  [00:03:48] Listener Voice Note: Hi Julie. I just listened to the third episode,  and again, it was extremely interesting. I wanted to point out when Brian said, I  don't think so when you ask whether her [00:04:00] anxiety triggers him, but  earlier, oh, that he said pointed towards a yes. So I wonder what happened there.  And then another thing I wanted to ask is at the end, you asked us a question  about expressing a need in our relationship and what stops us from doing that.  

  [00:04:16] Listener Voice Note: And I often think that it's almost like if I  express what I need from this person, that they have to do something because I  said so. And it feels like they're not authentic. I've got that as a response. When  I've expressed how something makes me feel, let's say they do something that  hurts me and I say, Hey, I feel hurt by that.  

  [00:04:37] Listener Voice Note: The response I get from the other person is  something along the lines of, you know, I understand if they're understanding of  it, I understand, and all that. But now what? Like, I'm not, I'm not going to like, 

  I want to be authentic with you. And it's almost like if I expect them to change  that behavior, they feel like they're going to be inauthentic with me.  

  [00:04:59] Listener Voice Note: They don't [00:05:00] want to do that change.  So how do we find that balance?  

  [00:05:03] Julie: Okay. So again, in regard to Brian, I call this a moving target  where someone says they feel something and then they turn around and deny  feeling it. And it's not done on purpose. It means it's because that he's  disorganized around his own inner experience and all the different layers that of  that experience.  

  [00:05:22] Julie: And he doesn't yet know how to hold multiple truths at once.  And he's not supposed to know how to do that coming into therapy. That's why  he's here. And my job is to help him do that. And it's not at all uncommon. And  in the example that you're using, I did. Choose to not address it right then  

  because, you know, I, I didn't, I had basically, I had a different direction I was  trying to take him and I didn't wanna get derailed.  

  [00:05:49] Julie: Um, but, you know, if, if this is a pattern that kind of, you  know, he keeps circling back to this moving target. And with some people it is,  it is a real big problem. And if it is a pattern that's [00:06:00] blocking our work,  then that would be something eventually I would need to address. And then for  your next question about your, your partner's openness to your vulnerability,  um, well, we do need for your partner to be able to show up for your  vulnerability when you express it.  

  [00:06:15] Julie: And it's good that you're doing it anyway, but it's not a lasting  solution if you aren't getting held in that place. If people aren't getting held in  their vulnerability, it only makes sense that they're going to stop being  vulnerable. So part of that is their work. You know, they need to learn how to  hold that and more importantly, they need to understand what their emotional  blocks are that are getting in the way of them being able to do that, to show up  with support.  

  [00:06:44] Julie: So you said the word inauthentic. What I would wanna know,  you know, what exactly feels inauthentic. For example, you know, if it feels  inauthentic for them to validate your emotions, um, that's probably because they  aren't [00:07:00] in touch with their own emotions and it's hard to see and  validate in others what we can't feel within ourselves. 

  [00:07:08] Julie: So, you know, putting words. To validation when there's no  felt sense is, is inauthentic. And it makes sense to me that they don't want to say  words that they don't mean. And of course that doesn't work because it leaves  you feeling alone with your feelings. And so the solution and this example is for  your partner to learn to emotionally ga engage with self so they can more fully  emotionally engage with you.  

  [00:07:41] Julie: And that's what builds authenticity. So to reach them with this,  you might try saying, you know, it makes a lot of sense to me that you don't  want to say words you can't feel. And I appreciate that this is something that is  important to you, that authenticity is important to you because it shows your  [00:08:00] integrity.  

  [00:08:01] Julie: You know, at the same time, when I don't feel emotionally  held, I end up feeling alone. And that doesn't work either. So are you open to  working on this so you don't have to feel inauthentic and I don't have to feel  

  alone? And now we're going to read an email from C who has a very thoughtful  question about negative cycles and their relationship and how to find this right  balance between self-regulation and co-regulation.  

  [00:08:29] Julie: So C asks, as an anxiously attached partner, how much should  I lean towards one attempts at partner soothing when it can feel like self-denial  and allowing myself to be misrepresented and unfairly treated? Or two, asking  for support for my own free fall anxiety or restating my views standing my  ground at the risk of escalating the tension.  

  [00:08:58] Julie: So this is a timing issue. [00:09:00] If one partner brings  something up to the other partner and the receiving partner can't be open to that  because they get so triggered around their own feelings that come up by what  their partner brought up, and they can't at least be open to the feelings of their  partner and validating their partners emotional experience around what they're  bringing up.  

  [00:09:18] Julie: And I don't mean necessarily, you know, taking accountability  for exactly what their partner is saying they did or didn't do, but at least making  an attempt to find the grain of truth in what they're saying. Or maybe just seeing  a pattern that their partner might be trying to address that's bigger than just this  

  one moment.  

  [00:09:41] Julie: And if the receiving partner can't do that, and instead they just  sort of, without even thinking, they use this as an opportunity to jump in with  their own hurts. And then the delivering partner, the one who is reaching, is not 

  going to get the [00:10:00] understanding and support that they're needing to be  co-regulate.  

  [00:10:04] Julie: So does that mean that you just ignore your own needs to be  understood around this event too? Not at all. Later, you know, maybe hours later  after the other partner has had time to get their needs met and kind of savor that,  you might need to go back in and say, you know, I have some feelings around  this too, and it doesn't take away from yours, but it does feel important to me to  get some support around this also.  

  [00:10:31] Julie: And if you, if they have felt supported and held, there's a  really good chance that they're going to be able to give that back. And if  partners can consistently put their own stuff to the side temporarily. When their  partner brings something to them, which does require the ability to self-regulate  and manage your own urges, to jump in and take the mic.  

  [00:10:54] Julie: And if partners can do this consistently, they will naturally  begin to trust [00:11:00] and say to themselves, I can hear and soothe my  partner and that doesn't mean my needs will just never get met. And then co regulating becomes less forced over time and more natural because that's what  trust does. Trust is co-regulating.  

  [00:11:16] Julie: Alright, well thank you to everyone from the bottom of my  heart who sent us a voice note, email or comment on social media. Uh, you  know, unfortunately we can't get to all of them, but we truly appreciate the time  that you take to engage in this conversation. And with that said, let's dive into  session four with Bethany and Brian.  

  [00:11:38] Julie: Alright, so I have just a few things I wanna say to kind of  follow up on our. Last, uh, session and that, but first lemme kinda check in with  you guys. Where are you guys at  

  [00:11:49] Brian: We're. So, so we're probably better than we were Monday.  [00:11:52] Julie: Okay. What, um, what helped, what shifted?  

  [00:11:56] Brian: Um, I sort of went off the rails about a couple [00:12:00] things on Monday afterwards and into Monday night.  

  [00:12:02] Brian: And then, you know, we just sort of gravitated towards being  back together. And, um, we went to breakfast this morning and, uh, it wasn't  too, too bad, so. 

  [00:12:20] Julie: All right. Well, you know, the most important thing to me, like  it's going off the rails is, is not really the problem at this point. I mean, of course  we wanna move away from that.  

  [00:12:30] Julie: What is important is that we're able to kind of understand why  you were kneading. What's that very good reason that you went off the rails?  'cause when we can understand these things, then we can work toward shifting  them. But before we, we go there. Um, and I'm not saying, Brian, that you are  all at fault here.  

  [00:12:50] Julie: I mean, this is a cycle that you guys have, right? Yeah. And  you know, I just want to kind of say like, this is, you know, this therapy's a long  game. Okay. [00:13:00] I don't expect to see any real significant changes, um,  for a few sessions. So just know that like, I, I can't, you know, this isn't the type  of therapy where I kind of say, Hey, go do this, and then you go do that, and it  just magically works.  

  [00:13:15] Julie: So we're really kind of working from the bottom up  [00:13:20] Julie: ish.  

  [00:13:20] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:13:20] Julie: You  

  [00:13:20] Julie: know,  

  [00:13:21] Julie: um, although it, there's, you know, there's something to be  said for working from, you know, with behaviors too. But the, you know, when  we're just working on behavior change, you know, it's not really, it doesn't really  stick basically. Um, and then.  

  [00:13:37] Julie: You know, I, I have some things I wrote down here. You  know, the work comes first and then the closeness and the easier conversations  you want to have. That comes later. Everything I'm doing in here is to help you  guys really, you know, own your own behaviors. And I need to know what the  other person did because I need to know what the trigger was, right?  

  [00:13:59] Julie: So [00:14:00] I wanna talk about what the other person did to  the, to the, um, degree that I understand really what was, what triggered you.  But then we gotta move into looking at your own responses to those triggers. 

  And that, you know, involves understanding more of the feelings and beliefs  and all the stuff underneath the responses.  

  [00:14:20] Julie: And so we gotta own like, Hey, in this cycle some of these  responses aren't healthy. And, and, you know, we have to not just own them, but  really explore them and understand how they're impacting each other and  yourselves and the relationship. And so I just need to know that, you know  enough, I trust that if three, these three things are happening with any couple I  work with, that will, you know, we will, you will see these problematic  behaviors decrease.  

  [00:14:49] Julie: You know, is it gonna be enough to save the relationship? I  don't know. But I do trust that this process will make things better. You know, if  if not totally saving the [00:15:00] relationship, you'll, you'll get so much out of  it as individuals. So really is worth the effort. Um, and then the last thing is, is I  just need permission here.  

  [00:15:11] Julie: When you guys are going into a cycle in the session, or, you  know, when I wanna kind of pull out of talking about the trigger, some people  just get stuck in the trigger. They just wanna keep restating what triggered, what  triggered. And so I just need some permission to redirect us back into, you  know, what, what happened for you when you got triggered, and then what your  response to that was.  

  [00:15:35] Julie: So when I see you guys kind of moving out of that, do I have  your permission to kind of circle us back to where kind of I need to be? So I, I  like to think of it as like, I really wanna honor your needs to be understood and  

  validated because you deserve that in here. Um, but then I have to also honor  my need to take us in the healing direction when I see that we're kind of getting  stuck out of that place.  

  [00:15:58] Julie: So, are we good? [00:16:00] Yes. Yeah. Alright. So why don't  you kind of, you know, I know that we were in a really bad spot last time we  met and, um, so just kind of, I don't know, just jump in anywhere. Uh, you  know, sometimes I just need to just kind of dive in and then see what emerges.  

  [00:16:17] Brian: Um, stemming from last session, I just like, I just, uh, it felt  like we, we were getting somewhere, but we weren't getting somewhere.  

  [00:16:25] Brian: Now we sort of got hung up on some triggers or some things  that. I don't know if you saw something in it that we didn't, but at the end of,  um, our session, we both sort of said that really wasn't like the, the fulcrum of 

  where it went to the, to the negative side for either of us. And it was hard to pull  something out of me 'cause I just didn't feel it or see it.  

  [00:16:49] Brian: Um, but where do you wanna start?  

  [00:16:52] Julie: Well, you were, I mean, you were really, you know, you were,  you were really in a lot of pain, honestly. And when people are in a lot of pain,  it makes it much more [00:17:00] difficult for them to kind of settle in and start  looking at their part.  

  [00:17:04] Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Understood.  

  [00:17:05] Julie: And that's  

  [00:17:05] Julie: understandable to me.  

  [00:17:06] Julie: And, you know, it's my job to help you kind of get out of that  pain and the session help move you out of it and get you down into the, the  deeper layers and help you get settled.  

  [00:17:19] Brian: Thank you. Thank you. Uh, that's what I'm looking for as  well. Um, so, uh, I don't, I don't know if we just totally start anew like.  

  [00:17:27] Brian: I just, uh,  

  [00:17:28] Julie: no, we don't have  

  [00:17:28] Julie: to start anew.  

  [00:17:29] Julie: Let, let's just talk, let's just keep going with what you said, and  I don't quite understand what you mean by fulcrum. I'm not sure I know what  that word means. Sorry.  

  [00:17:39] Brian: It  

  [00:17:39] Brian: was like tipping over,  

  [00:17:40] Brian: like we were talking about some, some different things that  were,  

  [00:17:45] Bethany: you're talking about my anxiety and it being 

  [00:17:49] Brian: catastrophic.  

  [00:17:49] Bethany: Catastrophic.  

  [00:17:50] Julie: What's  

  [00:17:51] Julie: so threatening to  

  [00:17:52] Julie: you about her anxiety? What's gonna happen if she gets  anxious?  

  [00:17:56] Brian: She just goes to a negative place where it's just like the worst  [00:18:00] thing is going to happen.  

  [00:18:01] Julie: So she starts to get really scared and catastrophizing.  [00:18:05] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:18:07] Bethany: And I think, I think you went to a place of like, I don't  know.  

  [00:18:10] Bethany: I, I, I think we, he had something in mind and I was  thinking like, wow. I, I didn't really think I reacted that way. And I think we  both agreed that that wasn't the situation that like our daughter coming outta  surgery was, was very traumatizing to see. I don't think I went to a place of  anxiousness and catastrophic.  

  [00:18:31] Bethany: It was just, yeah, I cried because it was hard to watch. And  he agrees with that. Like, I, neither one of us were in a bad place at that point.  

  [00:18:39] Brian: Yeah. And, and I, I think if you, I think you said to me that  like, she's in this catastrophic place and, you know, where do you go? And I, I  just didn't really feel like it was a, a extremely emotional time for either one of  us.  

  [00:18:55] Brian: And I just, um, so I just wanted to redirect that. [00:19:00]  

  [00:19:00] Julie: Okay. Let me hop in here for just a second. I wanna say two  things. One, I'm always working with perceptions. Two, I, I, I must have  misheard something because I thought, I heard you say, you know, her anxieties  through the roof, and so I maybe added that word catastrophic and if that was  my Yeah, yeah. 

  [00:19:21] Julie: Issue. And I apologize for that.  

  [00:19:22] Brian: No worries. Um, so just, um, to circle back, you know, I, I, I  think really when it, it, it triggered and went off the rails, I think for us over the  weekend was the talking of expectations. And, you know, Bethany explained  that, um, just felt attacked and she couldn't get anything.  

  [00:19:45] Brian: Right. And, um, you know, I was looking for more of  togetherness and then just, she said something and I said something, and it, it  goes back to, you know, what you just said a couple minutes ago [00:20:00] is  just we stay in this cycle and we keep just repeating these negative things  towards each other and it goes nowhere.  

  [00:20:09] Brian: And that's when you need to come in and sort of, you know,  separate the fight or the negative cycle. And, um, yeah, I. I, I think if we go  back there, I just, I sort of just felt let down that it, you know, it was, it wasn't  just us. And I think,  

  [00:20:30] Julie: are you talking  

  [00:20:31] Julie: about the session or are you talking about the weekend or  [00:20:34] Julie: The weekend?  

  [00:20:35] Brian: The weekend.  

  [00:20:35] Julie: Okay.  

  [00:20:36] Julie: Okay. Got it.  

  [00:20:37] Brian: Yeah. And I, I think she felt let down, um, you know, because  she felt like she can't do anything. Right. And if we get back into that spot and  dig into our emotions to, so that, you know, when she feels that way and I feel  the opposite way or a different way, that it can be okay for the both of us to feel  that way.[00:21:00]  

  [00:21:00] Brian: But then how do we power through that situation to turn it  into a positive time when we're both feeling negative and, and completely  different sets of emotions of feeling negative. 

  [00:21:13] Julie: So two things. Two things. One is the work in here is, is  designed to help you understand each other better. So in those moments, it  doesn't feel like they're the enemy.  

  [00:21:27] Julie: Look, all they're doing is accusing, here we go again. They're  accusing me of getting it wrong. They're accusing me, or she doesn't even care.  She doesn't even wanna connect with me. She, I don't even matter. I need in  here to shift those perspectives. And that's what I do, is I help you get a little  more clear with yourselves and each other, what's really happening in these  moments and how you're impacting each other.  

  [00:21:49] Julie: And then two, we have to see you start outside of here to do  new things in these moments. And somebody's gotta be, I mean, both of you  have a [00:22:00] responsibility to do something new so that, you know, in that  situation, it may have sounded like, uh, when the first, you know. Moment of a  trigger came when you noticed either in your own body, oh my gosh, I'm going  to that place where I'm gonna start getting reactive.  

  [00:22:15] Julie: Um, you're able to kind of step in and, okay, what's going on  with me? What's going on with her? And deliver your concern in a new way,  right? I don't know what that new way is. There's a thousand op, well, I don't  wanna say a thousand, but there's, there's different options. In a moment you  might dive into her, okay, what's going on with her?  

  [00:22:33] Julie: You might stay with you and be vulnerable with yourself.  Okay? Let me kind of share what's happening with me. Maybe we can take this  in a different direction. And then I need the other partner, you know, Bethany, in  that case, I would need for you to be receptive to that vulnerability. You know,  if, if we're not receptive to the vulnerability, that's gonna just encourage the  other person to go back into reactivity, which they don't have to choose to do,  but we're just increasing the odds here.  

  [00:22:59] Julie: And [00:23:00] then, you know, same thing on your end,  Bethany. You know, you might need to be the kind of initial co-regulation. If  over the course of time, only one partner is willing to be the one to, to be  vulnerable and, and, you know, um, offer the olive branch, that's a problem. But  we also have the reality that, you know, sometimes our partner is more  resourced, sometimes we're more resourced, sometimes someone's more hungry  or tired or some old trauma is bigger that's coming up with them.  

  [00:23:29] Julie: And, and you know, we have to be willing and understanding  that, that someone has got to come in with co-regulation. Ideally both. But 

  again, if that someone comes in with co-regulation, then the other person needs  to be consistently responsive to that. So that's what we're doing. That's, that's the  end game.  

  [00:23:50] Julie: So the end game is that, and that's why I'm, I'm really kind of  going, Hey, where's this trigger? Where's this trigger? Where does this start?  Where is a moment where we can [00:24:00] shift the dialogue? Okay. And that  I'm always looking, I work with moments. I don't work with the whole  relationship in this big, kind of cloudy, vague way that doesn't get us anywhere.  

  [00:24:11] Julie: I work with, let's talk about this moment. I might take a  moment and well, I will take a moment. I'll spend the entire session on that  moment, because embedded in that moment is the entire relationship problem.  You know, there's lots and lots of layers. We might not even get to all the layers  of it. There's the, you know, the vulnerability, the sadness, the loneliness.  

  [00:24:34] Julie: There's, you know, the, the bodily response, there's the  reactive feeling, the madness and the anger that comes up because of the hurt.  There's the way that you view yourself and some shame issues. There's, you  know, past trauma that comes up. So there's so many layers. So what I have to  do going from there, is I, I have to have someone kind of own a behavior.  

  [00:24:56] Julie: And I don't care who it is either of you, I'm gonna [00:25:00] need to do equal parts of that for both of you. But I gotta get a behavior own  that hey, this is a point at which maybe I could have done something different.  You know, maybe just trying to convince him with a text wasn't the best  approach. Or maybe just hanging up the phone wasn't the best approach and I  have to work backwards from there and get that dialogue in a new way.  

  [00:25:21] Julie: So I just would like, you know, I invite one of you to kind of  say, Hey, I'm willing to start here. Alright. So why don't we jump in, like who,  who would like to start? And what I'm gonna try to do is hit both of you in this  session. And what I'm gonna really try to do is, instead of, I'm not gonna do so  much of a deep dive, I'm really just trying to understand right now what's going  

  on that you're needing to, what did you say?  

  [00:25:47] Julie: You said, I went, I, you're needing to go off the rails. You're  not bad for going off the rails. Something really important happened,  

  [00:25:55] Julie: and I wanna know  

  [00:25:55] Julie: what that is. 

  [00:25:57] Bethany: I don't know if this'll help. Um, and [00:26:00] this is what  I walked into this morning, but it stems from things that I've done in the past.  Okay? So yesterday, I, I left here because, you know, we, we are living apart  right now.  

  [00:26:13] Bethany: It was his night for our daughter. So I, I dropped her off.  We decided that we were gonna spend the day together today because, you  know, we, we had this session, um, we were gonna go to breakfast, do the  session, and then hang out. And I'm gonna take our daughter to a movie later. So  when I, when I went to bed, goodnight, I love you.  

  [00:26:33] Bethany: Or he asked about my friend friends of ours, or friends of  mine who recently got divorced and what happened. So I texted all that to him  last night. He was like, wow, okay. So then he said, I didn't expect you to say all  of that. I, I had withheld information about another set of friends from years ago  who were going through a tough spot.  

  [00:26:55] Bethany: And I didn't tell him about the incident that I knew about  because he wasn't really [00:27:00] that, that good of friends with them. They  were like more my friends. And so he was put off by the fact that like, I  withheld information, but I, you know, he wasn't friends with them. I knew it  would somewhat be a trigger for him at the time.  

  [00:27:11] Bethany: So I, I just didn't tell him. Um, and he found out like we,  we were on vacation and it, so when I explained the entire divorce situation  about my friend that recently got divorced, I, he was like, I didn't expect you to  tell me all that. And I said, well, I learned from before. Like, you would, you  wanna know the whole story, right?  

  [00:27:31] Bethany: So I, I told him the whole story. So then this morning I  walk in, or last night I said, goodnight. Love you. Looking forward to spending  the day together. He said, love you too, me too. And this morning I walk in and,  and I was like, how are you? He was like, not good. I'm like, what's wrong? And  he was like, I just don't know about this whole thing.  

  [00:27:45] Bethany: I don't know if this whole thing is gonna work. I don't  know if it's gonna be worth it in terms of the counseling, the marriage, the  whole nine yards. And I said, I, what, what did I do wrong? And he said, you  didn't do anything wrong. And I said, what happened?  

  [00:27:57] Julie: Hold on, hold on one second. Let me 

  [00:27:59] Julie: clarify.  

  [00:27:59] Julie: [00:28:00] This happened today,  

  [00:28:01] Bethany: today, today.  

  [00:28:02] Bethany: So I walk in this morning and he's in this place of like, I  don't know if this is gonna work. Um, I don't know if it's worth it. And I said,  what did I do wrong? Like, that's immediately where I went. And I said, what  happened last night? Nothing. Well, what, what did I do this morning? Nothing.  

  And I said, well, help me understand like what happened in less than 12 hours  that all of a sudden, you know, we left in a good place.  

  [00:28:24] Bethany: I walk into a bad place. And then it came out that he was  dreaming about us. And then he started thinking about all of these other things,  like, you know, the way we started through the divorce process and flushing out  the financials and then. How I, I didn't tell him about our, our friend who, you  know, had an affair on his wife and or not our friend, my friend who had an  affair outside of his marriage.  

  [00:28:49] Bethany: And, and all of these things are like coming up for him,  and all of a sudden I walk into this bad place that I didn't expect this morning.  And so it's, it hasn't, it hasn't been a bad morning. [00:29:00] It's been a little  off. Um, but all I'm like, I triggered him some way.  

  [00:29:07] Julie: Okay. And so let  

  [00:29:09] Julie: me, okay, so you have this conversation last night about the  friend.  

  [00:29:15] Julie: You leave out this information for you. It doesn't seem that,  um, important. That was like four years ago. Okay. So you're kinda updating  him on their divorce.  

  [00:29:25] Bethany: This is two separate couples. Yeah. This is two separate  couples. So, okay. We ended up on vacation with the couple, the husband had an  affair. His wife's best friend.  

  [00:29:37] Bethany: And I didn't tell him about it, but I knew about it going  into us meeting up with them on vacation and it came out and he was like, you  didn't tell me this. And I was like, well, this guy's really not your friend. I'm the  one who graduated with him. They're friends with my sister. But he was mad 

  that I didn't tell him about it, but I just didn't really think it was relevant to our  relationship or really anything.  

  [00:29:59] Bethany: It's not [00:30:00] like he hangs out with them. Um, and I,  [00:30:04] Julie: okay, so  

  [00:30:04] Julie: lemme let  

  [00:30:05] Julie: me slow you down. So, so he's mad that you didn't tell him  about this affair?  

  [00:30:09] Bethany: This was  

  [00:30:09] Bethany: like five years ago. Yeah.  

  [00:30:10] Bethany: Okay. Yeah. And then circle back to the present. When I  have another set, I have friends who are going through a divorce. She was in our  wedding and he asked what happened with that marriage and why it dissolved.  

  [00:30:24] Bethany: And so I, I texted him the whole thing as much as I, I  could. Um, and, and it like. So summarized it very well, and he was like, I didn't  expect to, for you to tell me all of that. And I said, well, I learned from the past  time that, you know, you want, you want the full story. Right? So I gave you the  full story, and then it just got like, and I thought I triggered him with something  there.  

  [00:30:51] Bethany: Um, but it seemed to be okay when I went to bed. And  then I walk into not a good place this morning.  

  [00:31:00] Julie: Okay. So,  

  [00:31:02] Julie: so you, you  

  [00:31:02] Julie: think right now that there might be something that you said in  the context of this story that triggered him, but you don't know?  

  [00:31:09] Bethany: Yeah, I mean, I kind of know because he explained it this  morning that it just brought up all of these things, um, and going to a place of, I  don't know, it was just a bunch of things that came up. 

  [00:31:20] Bethany: It was like the divorce process that we had started. It was.  How could anybody be friends with that guy who cheated on his wife with his  wife's best friend? I don't know how you all still hang out with him. And I'm  like, I don't hang out with him. You know, he is friends with my sister's group of  friends.  

  [00:31:35] Bethany: Like it was all of these things. And I'm like, I don't, I, I  hear what he's saying and that it's very bothersome and it's, you know, not a,  that person didn't, was clearly wrong in what he did. Um, but he is like bringing  it into to us. And, and I just don't think it's relevant to the situation in that like,  neither one of us had an affair.  

  [00:31:58] Bethany: Neither one of us did [00:32:00] anything like that. But  like, I'm being at fault or I'm shamed for my, a group of friends who supported  this, this person. I don't know. It was just a weird place and I, I can't piece it all  together. I can't piece it all together to make sense.  

  [00:32:13] Julie: Okay, so you're  

  [00:32:14] Julie: working hard,  

  [00:32:14] Julie: you're working hard to piece it all together.  

  [00:32:17] Julie: You know, I'm gonna have to learn more. I don't quite  understand what, you know, clearly it was something important for him, right.  So, um, so, but, but for you, the message that you're getting, this isn't fair, right?  His, his stuff, his anxiety, whatever it is, his past traumas between the two of  you is sending you this message that what?  

  [00:32:38] Julie: Okay, Julie, jumping in here. So I just asked Bethany twice,  what is the message that you received? And this is so important and I'll explain  why. So we can think of relationships as a series of interactions that either meet  or unmet attachment needs. So what are attachment needs? Those are the needs  that [00:33:00] must be met for a partner to feel emotionally safe and close to  the other partner and vice versa.  

  [00:33:07] Julie: Examples include, I need to know I'm valuable to you. I need  to know I'm lovable to you. I need to know I'm acceptable and worthy in your  eyes. I need to know I'm respected by you. I need to know my needs matter to  you. Securely attached couples, and those aren't all of them. There are a few  more, but securely attached couples have their attachment needs met in the vast  majority of their inter interactions. 

  [00:33:33] Julie: They feel loved, they feel accepted, they feel valuable. They  feel like an equal and. When attachment needs go unmet in an interaction, this is  an attachment rupture and insecurely attached. Couples have a lot of them, and  then on top of that, they go unrepaired, and then they just start to really pile on  top of each other.  

  [00:33:53] Julie: Sometimes to the point where I'm walking around the  relationship feeling like I'm not really valuable. [00:34:00] And it's these unmet  attachment needs or just kind of overall state of not having attachment needs  met. And then on top of that, the emotional pain they create when they're unmet.  This is what causes negative cycles and then negative cycles create more of  them and less, of course, the couple knows how to just kind of immediately  jump in and repair the rupture with a positive cycle, which is always the work  I'm doing is getting couples to that point.  

  [00:34:27] Julie: So back to the message attachment ruptures start with the  message. They don't come from thin air. One partner gets the message from  their partners words or behaviors and. They get the message, you know, I don't,  I don't really respect you right now. Right? And then from there we have, I feel  small. I feel like my needs don't matter here.  

  [00:34:51] Julie: And to feel safe and close, I need to know that my needs  matter to my partner. And then it goes to, and that leaves me feeling alone. And  then it might even go to, [00:35:00] and what is it about me that's so not  respectable? And this really hurts. So when I keep circling Bethany, back to the  message that she received from Brian, not his direct words, but the implicit  message.  

  [00:35:13] Julie: The attachment meaning, and sometimes it's a perceived  message. Okay? I'm not even saying, it always comes from the person.  Regardless. This is the message that their nervous system picks up based on the  reality of the moment or maybe past wounds. And so I'm always searching for  this unmet attachment need because when I know what's unmet, I can work  toward getting that unmet need met.  

  [00:35:38] Julie: You can see how healing is shifting each and every one of  their interactions from unmet needs to met needs, and making that define the  relationship. And when the vast majority of interactions have met attachment  

  needs, or they can repair back when there's a rupture, now the relationship  becomes securely attached. 

  [00:35:58] Julie: And of course, that's what I'm doing with Bethany [00:36:00] and Brian. But to do that I have to understand a lot about the unmet needs and  more importantly, help them understand that all of what they're doing can be  still down into unmet needs. So think about your relationship. What unmet  attachment needs are you most vulnerable to usually?  

  [00:36:17] Julie: This will have to do what? Uh, with both, uh, what needs were  unmet during your childhood most of the time. And so if you felt chronically  unseen, this will be a big one for you. And when you get the message, your  partner isn't seeing you, it's going to sting more than say, I, I don't know. Feeling  appreciated For your efforts, maybe that's less important to you.  

  [00:36:39] Julie: Um, everybody's different. And what attachment needs is your  partner most vulnerable to? And I'll have more about this in homework. And for  those of you who didn't see the homework up for last session, we did have a  technical issue, but it is up as of now. Alright, for now. So, back to Bethany,  when I ask her, [00:37:00] what message are you getting with Brian's  

  [00:37:03] Julie: constant.  

  [00:37:05] Julie: I'm leaving.  

  [00:37:06] Bethany: He wants to quit again. He wants to quit. He wants to quit  on us. He doesn't think it's gonna work. Um, doesn't know if it's gonna. Put in  the work, and this is,  

  [00:37:15] Julie: but you don't know what you  

  [00:37:16] Julie: did between last night and this morning today.  [00:37:19] Bethany: Right, right.  

  [00:37:20] Julie: Okay. You're kind of, you're left in the dark over here about  what's really happening with him.  

  [00:37:25] Julie: And so I think what's gonna be most important is I need to  kind of check in with what's going on with I'm done and I wanna leave the  relationship. Is that, first of all, is that true or is that just kind of, you know,  Brian, you being reactive and, and telling us about how painful this all is for  you?  

  [00:37:45] Brian: Yeah, it, it's, it's painful and it's not even happening to me. 

  [00:37:49] Brian: Um, but there's other layers to the story. Um, the,  [00:37:56] Julie: I  

  [00:37:56] Julie: wanna talk right now,  

  [00:37:57] Julie: I wanna focus on [00:38:00] saying this morning that you're  leaving and, and understand more about that. 'cause that's a big piece here,  right? If you're truly going to leave the relationship, that's gonna, I impact how  we go forward with this session.  

  [00:38:13] Julie: I mean, I, and first of all, Bethany, are you okay? I kinda left  you over there hanging.  

  [00:38:19] Bethany: Yeah.  

  [00:38:20] Julie: Okay.  

  [00:38:21] Bethany: Yeah.  

  [00:38:21] Bethany: I, I, I think another piece too is that any, I, I feel like  anytime when the, when the going gets tough, when I make mistakes, big  mistakes that have hurt him, whether it's financially or otherwise, it's always  like, this needs to be done right.  

  [00:38:37] Bethany: This needs to be done. You need to go, this marriage isn't  gonna work. Like time to go. Do you feel like he has one foot, one foot out the  door all the time for like, for a long time? And I recognize that I've made  mistakes, I recognize, but there's always been like, anytime there's been a  mistake, a big mistake and, and they have been big, um, I, I, I, I will own  [00:39:00] that, that it's always like, let's just quit it.  

  [00:39:03] Bethany: Like it's just not working. Let's quit.  

  [00:39:05] Julie: Okay. And then where does that  

  [00:39:06] Julie: leave your nervous system? When, you know, you get these  messages over and over again. He is got one foot out the door and actually he  has had two feet out the door. Um, well you have two, but like, what is that like,  just kind of walking around the relationship, Al,  

  [00:39:24] Julie: is it kind of like always a little bit 

  [00:39:25] Julie: anxious?  

  [00:39:26] Julie: Is it always on guard?  

  [00:39:28] Bethany: Always on guard. Anxious, like walking on eggshells. Um,  afraid that, like what is, you know, what is gonna be the straw that breaks the  camel's back in, in his eyes? Um, is he, what is he ever going to, are we ever  gonna get to a place where like, I can make a mistake or I can not make the best  decision and, and he's gonna not support me, but, but not wanna run away.  

  [00:39:58] Julie: Okay. All [00:40:00] right. So you, this  

  [00:40:01] Julie: is a pretty, you know,  

  [00:40:02] Julie: you're describing a pretty hard situation, right? This is pretty  bad. I mean, it doesn't get a whole lot worse in a relationship than, like, never  really being able to feel safe. Right. What I would like to do is, is go over to  him. I think it, what feels the most important for me right now is to kind of  understand what's going on with him, that he's keeps going back to this place.  

  [00:40:24] Julie: Can, can we agree that, that Yeah. Like you, do you I do keep  going back to over and over again. Like, I'm leaving. I'm leaving.  

  [00:40:33] Brian: Yes, I do. Okay.  

  [00:40:34] Julie: And where are you right now at this moment? Are you going,  is are you in it or are you done?  

  [00:40:43] Brian: No, I, I, I'm engaged.  

  [00:40:45] Julie: No, no. In the relationship, are you?  

  [00:40:48] Brian: Yeah. I, I'm, I'm engaged in, in working on it.  [00:40:50] Brian: I'm, I'm, I don't plan to quit. Um,  

  [00:40:54] Julie: but this morning that, that was, you were actually planning to  quit. So this shift's pretty [00:41:00] fast, right?  

  [00:41:00] Brian: I didn't say that. I'm done. I said that, um. Uh, 

  [00:41:05] Bethany: Monday you said you were done though.  

  [00:41:06] Brian: I, I, I, I, I've been trending towards like this weekend, then it  compounds into, you know, Monday and then it, it, I, I had some dreams last  night and it just sort of didn't get back to sleep.  

  [00:41:21] Brian: And I just started thinking about all the negativity of, you  know, what was happening, uh, when we were sitting in front of attorneys and  like losing my family, losing my kid. And it's just like all the weight of, and the  pressure of everything that's like in the balance here, it just becomes a little bit  too much and Right.  

  [00:41:43] Brian: That probably stems from, you know, childhood. Um, you  know, like I'm somewhat of a runner. I, I run away from the negative stuff in my  life to find positive experiences and, [00:42:00] um. It's, it's so strange too.  'cause the most people would view me as like, I work hard to the end. You know  what I mean? Uh, I don't, I don't let, I don't start a project and, and quit a quarter  way through.  

  [00:42:14] Brian: I, I see it through like, what if it's, I gotta work at two in the  morning to do it. I, I do it. And, but the what? That stuck.  

  [00:42:22] Julie: So let me,  

  [00:42:23] Julie: let me jump  

  [00:42:23] Julie: in here just so I can make sure that I'm, I'm following you  here. So, you know, you said a lot of important things. You said the divorce  proceedings, that was kind of traumatic.  

  [00:42:33] Julie: There's also all this other stuff that's happened in the  relationship that's been traumatic for you. Um, you're distressed about losing  your family. You're distressed about the prospect of staying with the family and  always feeling like crap. And you are, you know, you've got work stress. I  mean, sure there's a lot, you know, there's definitely childhood issues  compounding on this, but that is enough to make it super painful.  

  [00:42:58] Julie: Just what you've described in the [00:43:00] here and now.  Yeah, it's hard. That's a lot on your shoulders. And you know, the, it's, it speaks  to who you are as a person and your resilience that even in spite of all this stuff,  and even in spite of the hard stuff you went through in childhood, you're still the  kind of guy that's gonna get the job done. 

  [00:43:21] Julie: Right. And, and that's a part of your life where we don't really  have to do any work. But sometimes in relationships, the ga the game is a bit  different. You know, the stakes are different. This is an emotional realm, right?  

  [00:43:35] Brian: Yeah. Yeah.  

  [00:43:36] Julie: And, and let me just balance that out with the fact that you're  still here, that that's not something to ignore.  

  [00:43:41] Julie: You are still here, you are doing this work.  [00:43:44] Brian: Yeah. Thank you.  

  [00:43:46] Julie: You're welcome. So keep going.  

  [00:43:50] Brian: So, you know, I, I feel like where I just get to the end of my  rope so many times is just like the, the pressure builds for me. [00:44:00] I start  thinking, I like to think to the furthest negative degree so that I know how hard  I'll fall in whatever situation.  

  [00:44:10] Brian: And then anything above and beyond that can be a win for  me in my own head. Um, and you know, in, in the divorce proceedings, like,  yeah, I mean, there's a ton of things that we've done and said to each other and  had fights or whatever, but I feel like ultimately I always had my family and her  in my best interests.  

  [00:44:36] Brian: And there's been so many things that have just been  emotionally crushing to me and a letdown and it's, it's not necessarily about the  money, um, but it's just like the act or you know, what took place that just said  like, I don't value you, I don't appreciate you. You're just gonna keep taking my  shit [00:45:00] until you can't anymore.  

  [00:45:02] Brian: And then I get to the point where it's like, I can't, and then I  feel like she manipulates my thinking to, to like go back to her, to like continue  the punishment, so to speak. And it could be the emotional punishment, it could  be the financial punishment. And I don't really get answers out of it from her,  but tomorrow's coming and next week's coming and whatever.  

  [00:45:33] Brian: So I just get back out there and just keep grinding.  

  [00:45:37] Julie: All right, so let, let's see if we can get somewhere where you  can stick, stick in this, but it doesn't have to. Eventually we can get to a place 

  where it just doesn't have to be such a grind, right? Because I agree it's better to  get out of this than it is to stay indefinitely in a grind.  

  [00:45:54] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:45:55] Julie: And so I wanna know, like you're giving me all these good  reasons that the pressure builds, [00:46:00] you know, again, the past, the  divorce proceedings, the money stuff, um, even now sometimes it feels like you  get messages that she's manipulating you and you know, the loss of your family.  I mean, and, and so when did this come to a head?  

  [00:46:14] Julie: Like, what happens last night you had this dream. What was  the happening in this dream?  

  [00:46:19] Brian: I remember being on like a third floor apartment and just sort  of like trying to squeeze through a tight space. And then she was doing  something to prevent me to like get through there. And then like within a minute  or two, it was 3:00 AM my alarm was going off to, to give our daughter  medicine.  

  [00:46:41] Brian: And then I couldn't get back to sleep because I started  thinking about our last conversation through text, um, with this, this friend from  four or five years ago. That, you know, cheated on his wife. And, um, there's a  big part [00:47:00] that that guy has played in our relationship because when we  split up, he called the police on me.  

  [00:47:07] Julie: Okay, Julie, jumping in. So, what's happening right now is a  perfect example of why dreams can be so powerful in therapy. When Brian is  awake and talking about their conflicts, he often gets stuck in the details of who  did what. But his dream bypasses all of that. It's a pure, unfiltered metaphor for  his deepest emotional truth.  

  [00:47:29] Julie: He feels trapped and in his most vulnerable state, his mind  casts Bethany as the one who is blocking him from getting to safety. My work  here is not to interpret the dream, literally, but to use the feelings. It brings up  the fear, the powerlessness, as a gateway to the unprocessed pain from real life  events like the police incident he's about to share.  

  [00:47:54] Julie: So let's just take a moment to reflect. Think about a recurring  dream or a powerful [00:48:00] image that has stayed with you without getting  lost in the details. What is the core feeling of that dream? Often our 

  subconscious mind gives us pictures for the emotions that we don't yet have.  Words for  

  [00:48:13] Julie: This guy  

  [00:48:14] Julie: that  

  [00:48:15] Brian: the adulterer called the police on me, and the very next day I  called my attorney to have Bethany removed from the house or to  

  [00:48:27] Julie: why did he call, what, what, what caused him to call the  police?  

  [00:48:31] Brian: Um, I had. Had surgery like about a week or so before, and I  did not, I elected not to take my prescription, but I elected to drink alcohol  instead. And I went to the fridge to fill up my ice. She opened it up, I thought on  purpose to just disengage the ice maker.  

  [00:48:56] Brian: So I, I had one bum arm and [00:49:00] one arm that I took  the top of the fridge and slammed it, but she was holding onto it, so she fell  back. And next thing I know, this hero is calling the police. And, uh, I don't, I  don't know what their relationship is. I, I don't, I don't know if you know he has  an adulterous relationship with my wife.  

  [00:49:23] Brian: I know.  

  [00:49:24] Julie: Yeah.  

  [00:49:24] Brian: at face value. It's maybe a high school friend, but like their  reaction to. His actions back then to me just was, it was like, it was no big deal.  And I was like, that predator is hanging around the rest of your wives and he's  already sleeping with one of the wives. You just don't care. Like, I just find that  super strange that you just don't care.  

  [00:49:55] Brian: And  

  [00:49:56] Julie: okay, so you're giving me a lot of information. There's a lot of  [00:50:00] layers here, and I'm gonna kind of distill it down into the stream,  right? There's a lot of good reasons that that situation with the refrigerator, you  know, in any circumstance if someone's calling the police, that's traumatic,  right? So you're giving me all these good reasons that you're subconscious in 

  the middle of the night would go to this place and she's kind of blocking you  from, from saving yourself.  

  [00:50:24] Julie: What's the message? You know, I, I get it, it's a dream, but  like, what's the message you're getting from her? The dream when she's not  letting you through with some meaning there.  

  [00:50:41] Brian: If you couple it with the divorce proceedings or the, the  police being called, uh, it's, uh, I want you to fail and at all costs, I'm gonna  win. And  

  [00:50:52] Julie: okay. And so if she's saying to you, I'm going to win, where  does that leave you?  

  [00:50:58] Brian: In the loser's bracket. [00:51:00] And that's where I would be,  I would, I would lose time with my, my daughter.  

  [00:51:04] Brian: I would lose, you know, a portion of my house that I would  have to pay back. I'd, you know, I'd, I'd be really pushed to the limit. And I've,  I've already felt at the limit for the majority, if not all of our marriage.  

  [00:51:23] Julie: All right. So, you know, in this place, you know, the. The  messages that you're getting from her.  

  [00:51:32] Julie: And, you know, Bethany, I, I do understand it's not so  straightforward for you, but you're getting this message that I'm going to win.  I'm going to win. And that puts you in a loss, a major loss of everything you  care about. And I'm guessing on top of that, she doesn't really care about what  you're gonna lose.  

  [00:51:53] Julie: This is about her winning.  

  [00:51:56] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:51:57] Julie: Okay. And so we're gonna, we kind of circle back to  [00:52:00] this place again that we got to last week, last session, that she  doesn't, she doesn't really care about me. She doesn't really care about my  needs. Yeah. There is a part of you that really, really, really believes that. I think  there's another part of you that doesn't believe that, but there's enough of a part  and this part comes to haunt you and then you, something happens over there  and you keep getting this message over and over by, you know, the stuff she's  doing. 

  [00:52:28] Julie: She doesn't really care about me. And so you're kind of  walking around the relationship over and over getting that message right?  

  [00:52:35] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:52:36] Julie: Okay. And so I want you to just say that out loud that I, in this  relationship, I keep, you know, I keep getting the message over and over and  over that my needs really don't matter to her.  

  [00:52:52] Julie: Just say that to me. I'm sorry. Say that actually you're saying it  to you. I don't want you saying it to her yet.  

  [00:52:58] Brian: Yeah. I, I, I do [00:53:00] feel that, you know, my, my needs  don't matter and I'm not getting what I want out of it, and I feel taken advantage  of.  

  [00:53:10] Julie: Okay. And if we, if we circle all that back, I'm not getting  what I want And which is your needs to matter.  

  [00:53:16] Julie: And you feel taken advantage of that it's not just taken  advantage of. There's other triggers. And it, it all kind of circles back to my  needs don't really matter. And so I want you to just tell me like what comes up.  Just as you say those words, I'm not real sure that my needs actually matter to  my wife.  

  [00:53:35] Brian: I, I mean, again, it's a, it's a lonely feeling. Um, you, you just  don't feel worthy. And then you question, what, what could I do to, to, to get the  feelings of affirmation that I am worthy and what am I not?  

  [00:53:53] Julie: So there's where  

  [00:53:54] Julie: your brain,  

  [00:53:54] Julie: your brain, just really leaps from lonely to what do I do to get  out of this?[00:54:00]  

  [00:54:00] Julie: Right? See, see, that's that. What we're, we're dealing with  right now is the, how do I get myself out of this? But we skip over this really  important stuff that comes first. Before that you said, look, I, I wrote you  catastrophize the outcome. Okay. And how does that help you? What happens if  you don't Let yourself go to the worst case scenario? 

  [00:54:23] Brian: uh, I don't know. I don't know if I've ever tried it, uh, in a  healthy way. Um,  

  [00:54:34] Brian: I just get into like a survival mode. Um,  

  [00:54:38] Julie: I think there's something really safe about the worst case  scenario. I think that what it is is that's how you regulate. That's how you've  learned to regulate all this pain that comes up when you're saying to yourself  and you're getting these messages. She doesn't even care about my needs.  

  [00:54:56] Julie: I'm like, nothing. I'm a second class citizen over here.  Nobody's [00:55:00] gonna thrive in a relationship where they feel like that.  And I think you do have a role in that now. That's what help both of you. But  she's got a role too. And the reality is, is that nobody's gonna thrive when they  don't know that their needs matter to their partner.  

  [00:55:15] Julie: And you said that's a lonely, painful place, and then the way  you try to regulate that. You go to this worst case scenario because if I can take  it all the way out to the worst case scenario, then what? You don't get surprised  you don't get dropped.  

  [00:55:31] Brian: Things get better from there.  

  [00:55:33] Julie: So is it better to just kind of go to the worst case scenario than  it is to worry about the worst case scenario?  

  [00:55:38] Julie: Or is it like your way of detaching or, I just need to  understand why that's a safe place because that's the place that says I'm leaving.  

  [00:55:47] Brian: It's a way to detach. It's a way to move forward.  

  [00:55:50] Julie: What happens, Brian, if you don't detach, what happens?  What happens if you, are you gonna just stuck? Stay stuck. Feeling like my  needs aren't being met [00:56:00] and I'm all alone here.  

  [00:56:01] Julie: indefinitely  

  [00:56:03] Brian: I just keep pushing it down and, and I don't.  [00:56:06] Julie: You do.  

  [00:56:06] Julie: You do. 

  [00:56:07] Julie: You do keep pushing it down, but then when it can't stay  down, then you go to  

  [00:56:13] Brian: an  

  [00:56:14] Brian: outburst.  

  [00:56:14] Julie: Worst case scenario, detach. And then that's when you start  and you can. Agree with me, or you can correct me here. That's when you start  saying, I'm done.  

  [00:56:23] Julie: I'm leaving.  

  [00:56:25] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:56:26] Julie: That's your way of regulating how bad you feel. You, you're  not trying to just kind of keep her in this place of fear or make all these threats,  are you? I don't, I don't get that.  

  [00:56:38] Brian: I, I certainly don't find any enjoyment by stating these things  to her. I mean, it's, it, it comes from a, a place of pain whenever I do say it, and  it's never really,  

  [00:56:50] Julie: it's  

  [00:56:50] Julie: not.  

  [00:56:51] Julie: Yeah. And I just wanna add here,  

  [00:56:52] Julie: it's not just that it comes from a pace of place of pain, it's your  body's way of trying to stay safe [00:57:00] from what is the most painful thing  you've ever felt in your whole life. Yeah. Which is being in a relationship,  having a family, and being in a situation where you don't really feel like your  needs matter and your body's been there before.  

  [00:57:12] Julie: That's how you grew up, right?  

  [00:57:16] Brian: Yeah. Oh. These,  

  [00:57:17] Julie: when in 

  [00:57:18] Julie: your life have  

  [00:57:19] Julie: you felt like you're really with someone in a very close,  intimate way, and you just know for sure that your needs matter and that you're  important and that you're valuable in their eyes? When have you ever been able  to fully trust that?  

  [00:57:34] Brian: Uh, it was probably my grandmother.  

  [00:57:36] Julie: Tell me about that. I mean, I know we've talked about that at  your individual session, but just kind of put some more words to that.  

  [00:57:43] Brian: Yeah.  

  [00:57:45] Brian: She just had this like,  

  [00:57:47] Brian: like real loving way of, it could be something about business,  it could be a relationship. It just, any just normal stuff.  

  [00:57:56] Brian: She just had this way about her that [00:58:00] she could just  talk straight to my heart and, and just make it sorta, I, I always felt like it was  exactly what in my, in my body I wanted to hear.  

  [00:58:09] Julie: Yeah.  

  [00:58:10] Brian: And I don't know. She had, she had my back like. No other.  [00:58:16] Julie: It sounds like that was a really, really special connection.  

  [00:58:19] Brian: It was. When it was special. She was tough too, you know,  tough to deal with as an individual, but when you know, the night calmed down,  she just always was just special.  

  [00:58:33] Julie: Yeah. So she could be tough too, but at the end of the day, it  sounds like you knew that no matter what happens, she had your back no matter  what happens.  

  [00:58:46] Julie: And that that embedded in that is that your needs really did  matter to her. You were valuable to her. And I'm guessing that, you know, your  whole life you've been longing [00:59:00] to have that, you know, in this  relationship. 

  [00:59:06] Brian: Yeah, I've been longing for it to, to be replicated and you  know, pass the torch on on and.  

  [00:59:12] Julie: And maybe sometimes, you know, I don't know that all this  defines the relationship, but maybe sometimes you have felt that with Bethany  and that's felt really good.  

  [00:59:22] Brian: Absolutely.  

  [00:59:23] Julie: Yep. And so I'm gonna circle you back here to those times  when you don't have it, when you don't feel like she's got your back and you  don't feel like your needs matter. That's the pain place. Where does that take  you? Tell me again where that takes you.  

  [00:59:40] Brian: It's lonely. It's painful. You lose hope.  

  [00:59:43] Brian: Um, you know, you feel like you don't have a direction. You  know, you're not worthy.  

  [00:59:49] Julie: Okay. So that's some big stuff. That's some big stuff. I mean,  you just said it's, it's lonely. It's painful. It's hopeless. There's no direction. It's  unworthy. I mean, those are pretty much the [01:00:00] worst depths of pain  that humans can go to on top of that loss, you know, just to kind of.  

  [01:00:08] Julie: Keep organizing this here. It, it, you get these messages that  your needs don't matter to her. Again, it doesn't have to define the relationship,  but when it's happening, it's brutal. And it takes you to a bad, bad, dark place.  It's a lonely place. It's a lost place. It's, it's a scary place. And then the way that  you've learned to regulate that is to go into this safer place of detachment.  

  [01:00:32] Julie: At least you get to escape all those terrible feelings. Right.  And then that is that when you start to say, I'm done. I can't do this anymore.  

  [01:00:43] Brian: Yeah.  

  [01:00:43] Julie: Okay. And then, and then the message that she gets is, is  what?  

  [01:00:48] Brian: It's, it's over, it's, it's done. You know?  

  [01:00:51] Julie: Right. And then she gets anxious and that doesn't help her be  her best self, and then she goes into her stuff. 

  [01:00:57] Julie: But we're learning right now that you're not just [01:01:00] randomly trying to, you know, scare her or just threaten her to get her to change  or. You're just really trying to get yourself safe. You know, maybe there is some  pieces of it that, that's maybe your way of trying to motivate her to change. And  if there is that, we can talk about that too.  

  [01:01:19] Julie: But where, where my heart, where my heart is really feeling is  this is more about you really trying to get yourself out of this really dark,  painful place. Because if you go to that dark, painful place and you sit in it, how  are you gonna even go to work?  

  [01:01:35] Brian: I mean, I, I'll power through just about anything, but, 'cause I  have a lot of people depending on me, you know, my family and my employees  and stuff, and tenants and it's just, you know, you absorb all of their problems  and I just have to keep standing up to be strong.  

  [01:01:54] Brian: And there's times where I just feel like I could just collapse.  'cause I, yeah, I just [01:02:00] don't feel stable enough to, to go on.  

  [01:02:03] Julie: So  

  [01:02:05] Julie: it sounds to me.  

  [01:02:07] Julie: It, it really does sound to me like there's a lot, and I know this  is paradoxical because it, we don't want this to have to be the case, but there  actually is a lot of strength in going to that detachment place because that  detachment place helps you kind of keep going forward.  

  [01:02:25] Brian: Yeah.  

  [01:02:26] Julie: The problem, problem with the  

  [01:02:27] Julie: detachment places,  

  [01:02:28] Julie: then it just keeps coming out. As you know, you're not really  talking about all this stuff. You're, it just keeps coming out as, I'm leaving you,  I'm leaving you, I'm leaving you. And so then that's the messages that now she  is getting messages in this cycle that you don't care about her and you know,  

  she's not important to you and we, we know that, but right now I just want you  to kind of, you know, what do you think it, it would be like to tell her, like when  I'm telling you over and over again that [01:03:00] I'm leaving. 

  [01:03:01] Julie: It's actually my body's way of, of trying to regulate this  enormous pain inside of me. And I, and I get that doesn't work for you. I get that  has a bad impact on you, but that's really what's going on. What, what do you  think it'd be like to share that with her?  

  [01:03:16] Brian: It might be eye-opening. Uh, like I, I feel like sometimes I  have done that.  

  [01:03:22] Brian: . And I think probably not every time that I've said I'm done,  I'm, I'm leaving. I want divorce, I want this, there's been like the other guy on  the shoulder that says, dude, you don't want this. You know?  

  [01:03:37] Julie: Right. And we can talk more about that, but right now I'm just  taking this little slice of it, which is, you know, I don't know how clear she is  about what's really happening with you.  

  [01:03:49] Julie: I think that what she's seeing is just this one foot out the door  and you're just kind of, you know, she can't do anything. Right. If, if she even  messes up a little bit, you're gonna. Leave her, [01:04:00] but, but what's really  happening with you is that you're not necessarily trying to push her away. You're  trying to push how painful it feels to not know that your needs matter when you  get those messages.  

  [01:04:15] Brian: Yeah. I, I, I feel like for like about a year ago, like when I  moved out, like week on, week off, I stopped cutting the grass. I stopped doing  things around the house. I stopped going out to dinner with her or even  attempting to, and all of those things that I was taking away, I thought it would  bring her back into realization of like where, where I was at.  

  [01:04:44] Brian: And instead it just pushed, pushed her further away. And then  I was even more mystified that somebody is as, as intelligent as she is, could not  put the context clues together. I don't know if I was necessarily [01:05:00] vulnerable in all of those, um, moves, but. I felt that those moves would make  her realize like my worth or what I do around here or what I provide.  

  [01:05:16] Julie: Alright, Julie, back again. So this is a critical insight into the  anxious avoidant dance. What Brian is describing is something I call the protest  of absence from the outside, his behavior, you know, stopping his contributions,  withdrawing his care, can look like he's just avoiding, or just doesn't care, just  randomly doesn't care. 

  [01:05:36] Julie: But the motivation behind it is. Deeply anxious. He's so  desperate to be seen and valued, so wounded by feeling like his needs don't  matter, that he withdraws his presence in the hope that she will finally miss him  and recognize his importance. And it's a flawed strategy that almost always  backfires by creating more distance, but it comes from a [01:06:00] profound  longing to matter to his partner.  

  [01:06:03] Julie: So pause for a moment and think about your own patterns.  Have you ever withdrawn affection or stopped sending the text first or pulled  back your efforts, or secretly hoped that your partner would notice the void and  come chasing after you? Understanding the motivation behind that impulse is  key to learning how to open up the conversation with yourself and with your  partner about what feelings those behaviors are trying to communicate and what  those feelings are needing in order to heal.  

  [01:06:33] Julie: Sounds like that was your way of trying so hard. To feel like  you matter to her.  

  [01:06:38] Brian: Yeah. And, and it, it really, it just backfired, you know,  

  [01:06:43] Julie: well, what, what feels important to me? And we can talk more  about that. But what feels important to me is that you're in a place where you're  trying to, that's your way of motivating her to matter, to see how much you  matter.  

  [01:06:55] Julie: Yeah. That this whole thing is designed [01:07:00] to know  that you matter. This attachment need is unmet a lot of the time, and it feels  painful. And then you go to, you do all these things to regulate that pain, but  we're missing this piece of really sharing and talking to each other about the  pain. Somehow that gets missed.  

  [01:07:18] Julie: I don't, I don't know if you've tried and it just hasn't worked.  And that's my job to help that vulnerability land that I wanna see right now.  What happens when you tell her? 'cause maybe you have told her that. I haven't  seen you tell her. And so I wanna see what happens when you say, look. That it's  such a pain place for me when I don't know my needs matter.  

  [01:07:38] Julie: It's, it takes me to this dark place and that's what ha what  happens is I try to escape that by just telling, by, by trying to detach.  

  [01:07:48] Brian: Yeah. Sometimes like the, the weight of all my emotions  going through these things with you. It's just, it's too much. And when I don't 

  feel supported and, [01:08:00] you know, like met halfway, then I just, I just  spiral.  

  [01:08:09] Brian: I, I I, I just detach and I just try to get away from everything  about all of, all of us, you know?  

  [01:08:18] Julie: That's beautiful. And I want, I want you to add to that, you  know, that that's, when I say the, that's when I say I am leaving and I, and I can  see how that, that hurts you when I say I am leaving all the time.  

  [01:08:35] Brian: I see that it hurts you in some and maybe a sick and twisted  way.  

  [01:08:41] Brian: It's, it's like a, it's a eye for an eye. It's like, you've hurt me so  bad that I'm gonna hurt you by leaving you.  

  [01:08:48] Julie: Right? And even that, Brian, even that is you trying to  motivate her. That's your way of bringing attention to the problem. That's your  way of trying to get her to see You gotta change. You [01:09:00] gotta change.  

  [01:09:00] Julie: So I, so we can get this better and I can know that my needs  matter to you, but we have two good reasons that you go there. One is, I say I'm  leaving because it's an eye for an eye. And that's my way of kind of motivating  you to get it together. So this can work 'cause I gotta know my needs matter.  And then two, it's the way that I regulate my pain to really convince myself that  I, I just have to run away from all this.  

  [01:09:29] Julie: It's too much. I can, I can respect that. Maybe at the end of the  day, that is what will need to happen. I'd rather see you detach than stay stuck in  all this pain indefinitely.  

  [01:09:45] Brian: Right. I don't, I don't know what's, what the end game will  be, but  

  [01:09:49] Julie: I don't either. And I would like to think that we don't have to  go there. That we have, this is the work is sharing more about this with her  instead of her [01:10:00] just seeing the move in the cycle. And I wanna check  in with you, Bethany, like how does it feel for you to just hear this conversation  and see a little bit more?  

  [01:10:12] Bethany: It's 

  [01:10:12] Bethany: very helpful.  

  [01:10:15] Bethany: Um, I think somewhere deep down, I suspected that was  probably the case, but it doesn't make hearing it any easier. So hearing that  there. There really isn't an intention of, of leaving or making me leave, however  it's phrased makes me feel more safe. Okay. And that I don't have to put my  head on my pillow wondering if, if tomorrow's the last day.  

  [01:10:42] Bethany: Um, so, so it's, it's helpful to hear and it, and it hurts my  heart to know that I have caused him that much pain to, to have to  

  [01:10:58] Bethany: go to that place. [01:11:00]  

  [01:11:00] Julie: Okay. I, I, I would probably rephrase that as the cycle that you  guys get stuck in. You really, I think at the end of the day you'll realize you're  really not enemies.  

  [01:11:09] Julie: You're both trying, you're both just drowning and trying to get  your needs met. But we'll get there. But what, what I hear you saying is that it's  still really hard in those moments and it, it, it's never gonna feel good to hear  your partner, say I'm, leaving. No matter how much you understand where  they're coming from.  

  [01:11:27] Julie: Right. But it also, your heart opens up when you can see more  of the pain that's going on that he's trying to regulate. He is really not just kind  of actively trying to push you away. Right. He's trying to motivate you. He is  trying to, if I can motivate her to get to get it together, then I don't have to feel  so hurt and Right.  

  [01:11:48] Julie: If I can just detach, then I don't have to feel so hurt. And I  would like to see you guys get better ways to not have to hurt going here, but I  think what, you know, if, if we're gonna really do the [01:12:00] work here.  Right. And you know, I, I only had time, sorry I only had time really to explore  with you, Brian and Bethany.  

  [01:12:07] Julie: I'll spend my time with you next time. But if we're really  gonna do the work here, we gotta move away from saying I'm leaving, I'm  leaving. Needs to come from a place of a lot of thought, a lot of discernment  and. It needs to come from a place where you really do mean it. Do you think  we could do that? Do you think we could try to work toward not just saying that  reactively when these feelings come up and instead maybe try to talk a little bit  more? 

  [01:12:39] Julie: Maybe you could say to her, this is one of those moments  where, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm hurting and I want, I wanna say I'm leaving. I  wanna say I'm leaving. I have this urge to say I'm leaving, but I wanna do  something different for us this time. Alright, Julie, back. So this moment is a  huge step [01:13:00] forward. We are moving from simply understanding the  cycle to actively trying to change it by setting a boundary around the leaving  language.  

  [01:13:09] Julie: We are taking away Brian's primary, yet very destructive tool  for regulating his pain. This is essential for creating safety for Bethany, whose  nervous systems just goes into high alert every time she hears those words. But  it also forces Brian to find a new, healthier way to communicate his distress.  

  [01:13:29] Julie: And so instead of threatening rupture, the new goal for him is  to say, I'm hurting and I have the urge to say I'm leaving, but I want to do  something new, something different. This is the first step toward building a new  pattern where vulnerability not detachment becomes the path back to  connection. So let's reflect on this.  

  [01:13:52] Julie: What is one rule of engagement that could make conflict feel  safer in your own relationship? [01:14:00] Could it be agreeing to not raise your  voices or taking a 20 minute time out when things get heated or just banning  words like always and never. So creating these containers is crucial for making  these difficult conversations possible.  

  [01:14:17] Julie: All right. And so that's gonna require that Yeah. That you, you  kind of step into yourself and you say, Hey, you know, this is one of those  moments where these feelings are coming up and I just wanna run away and I  wanna start saying I'm leaving, but I don't really think that's gonna help our  relationship.  

  [01:14:33] Julie: It's just gonna kind of reinforce that cycle and then, and then  maybe share and, and see what happens. I don't know if the relationship, I don't  know if you guys are ready to, you know, have a healing bonding conversation  

  about what's going on, but I do know this, we can at least do some damage  control and work on not going to that reactive place that doesn't really work. [01:15:00]  

  [01:15:00] Julie: Okay. And then Bethany, if he is willing and able to be  vulnerable with you, you know, and, and say, Hey, this is one of those urges,  you know, I don't know exactly what the words would be, but maybe it would  be nice to say, Hey, listen, I appreciate you sharing that with me. I see the effort, 

  I see the shift here, and it means to me, and it does actually help me feel more  settled.  

  [01:15:23] Bethany: It would make me, and I, I am, I would love to have the  opportunity to say that. . I would.  

  [01:15:29] Julie: All right. Well, let's see, um, how it goes. And we'll plan on  picking back up then next week. All right, well, there you go. So let's just all  take a breath together. Today's session was a journey into the heart of what it  means to feel unsafe in a relationship.  

  [01:15:51] Julie: We explored how Brian's instinct to leave to detach and  threaten divorce is not a calculated move to hurt [01:16:00] Bethany, but a  desperate attempt to regulate his own deep seated pain and fear of  abandonment. We saw how the memory of the refrigerator door incident  compounded by the involvement of the police and a person he deeply mistrust,  created a lasting wound.  

  [01:16:19] Julie: For Brian, it solidified his narrative that Bethany, in his most  vulnerable moments, will not protect him and may even be out to get him. Of  course, we know that's not the real truth. Bethany is truly on his team, but that's  what negative cycles do. They make partners believe they are the enemies of  each other.  

  [01:16:37] Julie: But that's not the truth here. The truth here. In this situation  and in many of your situations out there, is that it's the reactive words and  unspoken vulnerabilities of the cycle that are the real enemy. Brian's admission  that divorce feels like an easier path, is a sign of his deep hopelessness. In these  moments, it raises the stake for their work together and sets [01:17:00] the stage  for the central challenge of the season.  

  [01:17:03] Julie: Can they learn to turn toward each other's fear instead of  letting it just drive them apart? And next week, we'll see the other side of the  coin as our focus will shift primarily back to Bethany, and we'll explore how  Brian's repeated threats to leave impact her, and then reinforce her deepest fears  of not being good enough.  

  [01:17:24] Julie: Now, for your homework this week, I want you to gently  consider your own patterns. When you feel overwhelmed or hurt in your  relationship, what is your retreat strategy? Do you shut down? Do you get busy?  Do you pick a fight? Just notice without judgment. Alright, so as always, we'd  love to hear your reflection. 

  [01:17:44] Julie: So send us a voice note or an email to  

  support@thesecurerelationship.com and we may feature your story in a future  episode. Alright, well thank you for joining me today. Remember, healing isn't  about perfection. It's about showing up even [01:18:00] when it's messy. So if  today's session was helpful, please take a moment to leave a five star review and  subscribe wherever you get your podcast.  

  [01:18:08] Julie: It makes a huge difference in my ability to reach and help  struggling couples. And again, thank you to Bethany and Brian for being here  with us and letting us in on their world so that the three of us can help others  heal in the very same way they're healing. Until next time, take care of yourself  and your relationships.