Session 4: Why Does Leaving Feel Better Than Staying?

Sep 23

In this episode

What happens when the fear of being hurt makes leaving feel safer than staying? Julie Menanno digs into the roots of Brian's mistrust as he shares a distressing dream and a painful childhood memory. We explore how his nervous system drives him to make empty threats to leave, while underneath his fear of abandonment and betrayal runs deep. These reactive moments aren't attempts to hurt Bethany—they're survival strategies masking wounds that still need healing.

Key takeaways

Brian's instinct to detach traces back to a childhood memory and a distressing dream.
The fear of being hurt or trapped can make leaving feel safer than staying.
His nervous system drives empty threats to leave, masking a deep fear of abandonment and betrayal.
Reactive threats aren't attempts to wound—they're survival strategies protecting old vulnerabilities.
Conflict doesn't create new problems; it exposes the wounds already there.

Session 4: Why Does Leaving Feel Better Than Staying?
[00:00:00] Julie: Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Mennano. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book, secure Love Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime. So we're working here with Bethany and Brian, a struggling couple, trying to work through their insecurely attached relationship.
[00:00:23] Julie: They're showing up with bravery and a willingness to be vulnerable, and I'm taking it from there by using emotionally focused therapy for couples, which is an attachment based therapy to help them navigate from insecure to secure. So today we're exploring one of the most painful questions in a struggling relationship.
[00:00:43] Julie: When does leaving feel safer than staying? For so many of us, when the fear of being hurt, misunderstood, or abandoned becomes too great, the instinct to detach and impulsively say things like, well, I'm just done with this, can be very overwhelming. It's a [00:01:00] survival strategy to make impulsive threats, but they come at the cost of the very connection that we're longing for.
[00:01:07] Julie: So in today's session, Brian shares a distressing dream that can be seen as a metaphor for his real world experience. He's trying to squeeze through a tight space to escape and only to find Bethany blocking his way. So this dream becomes the gateway to unpacking a core injury that fuels his mistrust. A painful memory involving a physical accident with a refrigerator door, a friend he calls the adulterer calling the police, and Brian's profound sense of being betrayed and criminalized by those closest to him.
[00:01:41] Julie: This might sound like bigger issues than what you are facing in your relationship, but the themes will be the same misunderstandings, especially those that involve friends or extended family relationships that fuel feelings of betrayal and resentment that aren't getting the healing that they [00:02:00] need. So all of these threads weave together in this episode to reveal Brian's deepest pattern when the pressure builds and he feels trapped, his nervous system tells him to run, and then he starts making empty, or at least partially empty threats.
[00:02:15] Julie: This, of course leaves Bethany confused and hurt. And so we're gonna help Brian learn a better way to manage the vulnerabilities
underlying his reactive words. When I talk to Brian about his deepest fears, a lot of them surround the potential loss he faces and how much he fears how horrible it will be for him if it plays out like that.
[00:02:37] Julie: So try not to say to yourself, well, I'm not fearing loss. That's not relatable. And instead, focus on what you do. Fear all triggers are rooted in a deepest fear. Your fear might just be, you know, underneath this anger and resentment that I feel about how things are, is the fear that things will never change and that I'll just continue walking [00:03:00] around the relationship and definitely feeling my, like my needs aren't getting met.
[00:03:05] Julie: That means I'll just keep circling back to a sad, lonely place over and over, and maybe those times are few enough and the good outweighs the bad, but still those moments are awful and I just don't wanna keep going there, and so I protest or I shut down, or I push away my partner's concerns, or whatever it is you do when a need goes unmet and that fear comes to find you.
[00:03:26] Julie: So just pay attention to this. As you listen, what is your deepest fear? And that brings us to one of my favorite parts of the show where we get to hear from you, the listener. So first up we have a voice note where our listener asks about what I like to call moving target, a moving target response from Brian.
[00:03:46] Julie: So let's hear from Lana.
[00:03:48] Listener Voice Note: Hi Julie. I just listened to the third episode, and again, it was extremely interesting. I wanted to point out when Brian said, I don't think so when you ask whether her [00:04:00] anxiety triggers him, but earlier, oh, that he said pointed towards a yes. So I wonder what happened there. And then another thing I wanted to ask is at the end, you asked us a question about expressing a need in our relationship and what stops us from doing that.
[00:04:16] Listener Voice Note: And I often think that it's almost like if I express what I need from this person, that they have to do something because I said so. And it feels like they're not authentic. I've got that as a response. When I've expressed how something makes me feel, let's say they do something that hurts me and I say, Hey, I feel hurt by that.
[00:04:37] Listener Voice Note: The response I get from the other person is something along the lines of, you know, I understand if they're understanding of it, I understand, and all that. But now what? Like, I'm not, I'm not going to like,
I want to be authentic with you. And it's almost like if I expect them to change that behavior, they feel like they're going to be inauthentic with me.
[00:04:59] Listener Voice Note: They don't [00:05:00] want to do that change. So how do we find that balance?
[00:05:03] Julie: Okay. So again, in regard to Brian, I call this a moving target where someone says they feel something and then they turn around and deny feeling it. And it's not done on purpose. It means it's because that he's disorganized around his own inner experience and all the different layers that of that experience.
[00:05:22] Julie: And he doesn't yet know how to hold multiple truths at once. And he's not supposed to know how to do that coming into therapy. That's why he's here. And my job is to help him do that. And it's not at all uncommon. And in the example that you're using, I did. Choose to not address it right then
because, you know, I, I didn't, I had basically, I had a different direction I was trying to take him and I didn't wanna get derailed.
[00:05:49] Julie: Um, but, you know, if, if this is a pattern that kind of, you know, he keeps circling back to this moving target. And with some people it is, it is a real big problem. And if it is a pattern that's [00:06:00] blocking our work, then that would be something eventually I would need to address. And then for your next question about your, your partner's openness to your vulnerability, um, well, we do need for your partner to be able to show up for your vulnerability when you express it.
[00:06:15] Julie: And it's good that you're doing it anyway, but it's not a lasting solution if you aren't getting held in that place. If people aren't getting held in their vulnerability, it only makes sense that they're going to stop being vulnerable. So part of that is their work. You know, they need to learn how to hold that and more importantly, they need to understand what their emotional blocks are that are getting in the way of them being able to do that, to show up with support.
[00:06:44] Julie: So you said the word inauthentic. What I would wanna know, you know, what exactly feels inauthentic. For example, you know, if it feels inauthentic for them to validate your emotions, um, that's probably because they aren't [00:07:00] in touch with their own emotions and it's hard to see and validate in others what we can't feel within ourselves.
[00:07:08] Julie: So, you know, putting words. To validation when there's no felt sense is, is inauthentic. And it makes sense to me that they don't want to say words that they don't mean. And of course that doesn't work because it leaves you feeling alone with your feelings. And so the solution and this example is for your partner to learn to emotionally ga engage with self so they can more fully emotionally engage with you.
[00:07:41] Julie: And that's what builds authenticity. So to reach them with this, you might try saying, you know, it makes a lot of sense to me that you don't want to say words you can't feel. And I appreciate that this is something that is important to you, that authenticity is important to you because it shows your [00:08:00] integrity.
[00:08:01] Julie: You know, at the same time, when I don't feel emotionally held, I end up feeling alone. And that doesn't work either. So are you open to working on this so you don't have to feel inauthentic and I don't have to feel
alone? And now we're going to read an email from C who has a very thoughtful question about negative cycles and their relationship and how to find this right balance between self-regulation and co-regulation.
[00:08:29] Julie: So C asks, as an anxiously attached partner, how much should I lean towards one attempts at partner soothing when it can feel like self-denial and allowing myself to be misrepresented and unfairly treated? Or two, asking for support for my own free fall anxiety or restating my views standing my ground at the risk of escalating the tension.
[00:08:58] Julie: So this is a timing issue. [00:09:00] If one partner brings something up to the other partner and the receiving partner can't be open to that because they get so triggered around their own feelings that come up by what their partner brought up, and they can't at least be open to the feelings of their partner and validating their partners emotional experience around what they're bringing up.
[00:09:18] Julie: And I don't mean necessarily, you know, taking accountability for exactly what their partner is saying they did or didn't do, but at least making an attempt to find the grain of truth in what they're saying. Or maybe just seeing a pattern that their partner might be trying to address that's bigger than just this
one moment.
[00:09:41] Julie: And if the receiving partner can't do that, and instead they just sort of, without even thinking, they use this as an opportunity to jump in with their own hurts. And then the delivering partner, the one who is reaching, is not
going to get the [00:10:00] understanding and support that they're needing to be co-regulate.
[00:10:04] Julie: So does that mean that you just ignore your own needs to be understood around this event too? Not at all. Later, you know, maybe hours later after the other partner has had time to get their needs met and kind of savor that, you might need to go back in and say, you know, I have some feelings around this too, and it doesn't take away from yours, but it does feel important to me to get some support around this also.
[00:10:31] Julie: And if you, if they have felt supported and held, there's a really good chance that they're going to be able to give that back. And if partners can consistently put their own stuff to the side temporarily. When their partner brings something to them, which does require the ability to self-regulate and manage your own urges, to jump in and take the mic.
[00:10:54] Julie: And if partners can do this consistently, they will naturally begin to trust [00:11:00] and say to themselves, I can hear and soothe my partner and that doesn't mean my needs will just never get met. And then co regulating becomes less forced over time and more natural because that's what trust does. Trust is co-regulating.
[00:11:16] Julie: Alright, well thank you to everyone from the bottom of my heart who sent us a voice note, email or comment on social media. Uh, you know, unfortunately we can't get to all of them, but we truly appreciate the time that you take to engage in this conversation. And with that said, let's dive into session four with Bethany and Brian.
[00:11:38] Julie: Alright, so I have just a few things I wanna say to kind of follow up on our. Last, uh, session and that, but first lemme kinda check in with you guys. Where are you guys at
[00:11:49] Brian: We're. So, so we're probably better than we were Monday. [00:11:52] Julie: Okay. What, um, what helped, what shifted?
[00:11:56] Brian: Um, I sort of went off the rails about a couple [00:12:00] things on Monday afterwards and into Monday night.
[00:12:02] Brian: And then, you know, we just sort of gravitated towards being back together. And, um, we went to breakfast this morning and, uh, it wasn't too, too bad, so.
[00:12:20] Julie: All right. Well, you know, the most important thing to me, like it's going off the rails is, is not really the problem at this point. I mean, of course we wanna move away from that.
[00:12:30] Julie: What is important is that we're able to kind of understand why you were kneading. What's that very good reason that you went off the rails? 'cause when we can understand these things, then we can work toward shifting them. But before we, we go there. Um, and I'm not saying, Brian, that you are all at fault here.
[00:12:50] Julie: I mean, this is a cycle that you guys have, right? Yeah. And you know, I just want to kind of say like, this is, you know, this therapy's a long game. Okay. [00:13:00] I don't expect to see any real significant changes, um, for a few sessions. So just know that like, I, I can't, you know, this isn't the type of therapy where I kind of say, Hey, go do this, and then you go do that, and it just magically works.
[00:13:15] Julie: So we're really kind of working from the bottom up [00:13:20] Julie: ish.
[00:13:20] Brian: Yeah.
[00:13:20] Julie: You
[00:13:20] Julie: know,
[00:13:21] Julie: um, although it, there's, you know, there's something to be said for working from, you know, with behaviors too. But the, you know, when we're just working on behavior change, you know, it's not really, it doesn't really stick basically. Um, and then.
[00:13:37] Julie: You know, I, I have some things I wrote down here. You know, the work comes first and then the closeness and the easier conversations you want to have. That comes later. Everything I'm doing in here is to help you guys really, you know, own your own behaviors. And I need to know what the other person did because I need to know what the trigger was, right?
[00:13:59] Julie: So [00:14:00] I wanna talk about what the other person did to the, to the, um, degree that I understand really what was, what triggered you. But then we gotta move into looking at your own responses to those triggers.
And that, you know, involves understanding more of the feelings and beliefs and all the stuff underneath the responses.
[00:14:20] Julie: And so we gotta own like, Hey, in this cycle some of these responses aren't healthy. And, and, you know, we have to not just own them, but really explore them and understand how they're impacting each other and yourselves and the relationship. And so I just need to know that, you know enough, I trust that if three, these three things are happening with any couple I work with, that will, you know, we will, you will see these problematic behaviors decrease.
[00:14:49] Julie: You know, is it gonna be enough to save the relationship? I don't know. But I do trust that this process will make things better. You know, if if not totally saving the [00:15:00] relationship, you'll, you'll get so much out of it as individuals. So really is worth the effort. Um, and then the last thing is, is I just need permission here.
[00:15:11] Julie: When you guys are going into a cycle in the session, or, you know, when I wanna kind of pull out of talking about the trigger, some people just get stuck in the trigger. They just wanna keep restating what triggered, what triggered. And so I just need some permission to redirect us back into, you know, what, what happened for you when you got triggered, and then what your response to that was.
[00:15:35] Julie: So when I see you guys kind of moving out of that, do I have your permission to kind of circle us back to where kind of I need to be? So I, I like to think of it as like, I really wanna honor your needs to be understood and
validated because you deserve that in here. Um, but then I have to also honor my need to take us in the healing direction when I see that we're kind of getting stuck out of that place.
[00:15:58] Julie: So, are we good? [00:16:00] Yes. Yeah. Alright. So why don't you kind of, you know, I know that we were in a really bad spot last time we met and, um, so just kind of, I don't know, just jump in anywhere. Uh, you know, sometimes I just need to just kind of dive in and then see what emerges.
[00:16:17] Brian: Um, stemming from last session, I just like, I just, uh, it felt like we, we were getting somewhere, but we weren't getting somewhere.
[00:16:25] Brian: Now we sort of got hung up on some triggers or some things that. I don't know if you saw something in it that we didn't, but at the end of, um, our session, we both sort of said that really wasn't like the, the fulcrum of
where it went to the, to the negative side for either of us. And it was hard to pull something out of me 'cause I just didn't feel it or see it.
[00:16:49] Brian: Um, but where do you wanna start?
[00:16:52] Julie: Well, you were, I mean, you were really, you know, you were, you were really in a lot of pain, honestly. And when people are in a lot of pain, it makes it much more [00:17:00] difficult for them to kind of settle in and start looking at their part.
[00:17:04] Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Understood.
[00:17:05] Julie: And that's
[00:17:05] Julie: understandable to me.
[00:17:06] Julie: And, you know, it's my job to help you kind of get out of that pain and the session help move you out of it and get you down into the, the deeper layers and help you get settled.
[00:17:19] Brian: Thank you. Thank you. Uh, that's what I'm looking for as well. Um, so, uh, I don't, I don't know if we just totally start anew like.
[00:17:27] Brian: I just, uh,
[00:17:28] Julie: no, we don't have
[00:17:28] Julie: to start anew.
[00:17:29] Julie: Let, let's just talk, let's just keep going with what you said, and I don't quite understand what you mean by fulcrum. I'm not sure I know what that word means. Sorry.
[00:17:39] Brian: It
[00:17:39] Brian: was like tipping over,
[00:17:40] Brian: like we were talking about some, some different things that were,
[00:17:45] Bethany: you're talking about my anxiety and it being
[00:17:49] Brian: catastrophic.
[00:17:49] Bethany: Catastrophic.
[00:17:50] Julie: What's
[00:17:51] Julie: so threatening to
[00:17:52] Julie: you about her anxiety? What's gonna happen if she gets anxious?
[00:17:56] Brian: She just goes to a negative place where it's just like the worst [00:18:00] thing is going to happen.
[00:18:01] Julie: So she starts to get really scared and catastrophizing. [00:18:05] Brian: Yeah.
[00:18:07] Bethany: And I think, I think you went to a place of like, I don't know.
[00:18:10] Bethany: I, I, I think we, he had something in mind and I was thinking like, wow. I, I didn't really think I reacted that way. And I think we both agreed that that wasn't the situation that like our daughter coming outta surgery was, was very traumatizing to see. I don't think I went to a place of anxiousness and catastrophic.
[00:18:31] Bethany: It was just, yeah, I cried because it was hard to watch. And he agrees with that. Like, I, neither one of us were in a bad place at that point.
[00:18:39] Brian: Yeah. And, and I, I think if you, I think you said to me that like, she's in this catastrophic place and, you know, where do you go? And I, I just didn't really feel like it was a, a extremely emotional time for either one of us.
[00:18:55] Brian: And I just, um, so I just wanted to redirect that. [00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Julie: Okay. Let me hop in here for just a second. I wanna say two things. One, I'm always working with perceptions. Two, I, I, I must have misheard something because I thought, I heard you say, you know, her anxieties through the roof, and so I maybe added that word catastrophic and if that was my Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:21] Julie: Issue. And I apologize for that.
[00:19:22] Brian: No worries. Um, so just, um, to circle back, you know, I, I, I think really when it, it, it triggered and went off the rails, I think for us over the weekend was the talking of expectations. And, you know, Bethany explained that, um, just felt attacked and she couldn't get anything.
[00:19:45] Brian: Right. And, um, you know, I was looking for more of togetherness and then just, she said something and I said something, and it, it goes back to, you know, what you just said a couple minutes ago [00:20:00] is just we stay in this cycle and we keep just repeating these negative things towards each other and it goes nowhere.
[00:20:09] Brian: And that's when you need to come in and sort of, you know, separate the fight or the negative cycle. And, um, yeah, I. I, I think if we go back there, I just, I sort of just felt let down that it, you know, it was, it wasn't just us. And I think,
[00:20:30] Julie: are you talking
[00:20:31] Julie: about the session or are you talking about the weekend or [00:20:34] Julie: The weekend?
[00:20:35] Brian: The weekend.
[00:20:35] Julie: Okay.
[00:20:36] Julie: Okay. Got it.
[00:20:37] Brian: Yeah. And I, I think she felt let down, um, you know, because she felt like she can't do anything. Right. And if we get back into that spot and dig into our emotions to, so that, you know, when she feels that way and I feel the opposite way or a different way, that it can be okay for the both of us to feel that way.[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Brian: But then how do we power through that situation to turn it into a positive time when we're both feeling negative and, and completely different sets of emotions of feeling negative.
[00:21:13] Julie: So two things. Two things. One is the work in here is, is designed to help you understand each other better. So in those moments, it doesn't feel like they're the enemy.
[00:21:27] Julie: Look, all they're doing is accusing, here we go again. They're accusing me of getting it wrong. They're accusing me, or she doesn't even care. She doesn't even wanna connect with me. She, I don't even matter. I need in here to shift those perspectives. And that's what I do, is I help you get a little more clear with yourselves and each other, what's really happening in these moments and how you're impacting each other.
[00:21:49] Julie: And then two, we have to see you start outside of here to do new things in these moments. And somebody's gotta be, I mean, both of you have a [00:22:00] responsibility to do something new so that, you know, in that situation, it may have sounded like, uh, when the first, you know. Moment of a trigger came when you noticed either in your own body, oh my gosh, I'm going to that place where I'm gonna start getting reactive.
[00:22:15] Julie: Um, you're able to kind of step in and, okay, what's going on with me? What's going on with her? And deliver your concern in a new way, right? I don't know what that new way is. There's a thousand op, well, I don't wanna say a thousand, but there's, there's different options. In a moment you might dive into her, okay, what's going on with her?
[00:22:33] Julie: You might stay with you and be vulnerable with yourself. Okay? Let me kind of share what's happening with me. Maybe we can take this in a different direction. And then I need the other partner, you know, Bethany, in that case, I would need for you to be receptive to that vulnerability. You know, if, if we're not receptive to the vulnerability, that's gonna just encourage the other person to go back into reactivity, which they don't have to choose to do, but we're just increasing the odds here.
[00:22:59] Julie: And [00:23:00] then, you know, same thing on your end, Bethany. You know, you might need to be the kind of initial co-regulation. If over the course of time, only one partner is willing to be the one to, to be vulnerable and, and, you know, um, offer the olive branch, that's a problem. But we also have the reality that, you know, sometimes our partner is more resourced, sometimes we're more resourced, sometimes someone's more hungry or tired or some old trauma is bigger that's coming up with them.
[00:23:29] Julie: And, and you know, we have to be willing and understanding that, that someone has got to come in with co-regulation. Ideally both. But
again, if that someone comes in with co-regulation, then the other person needs to be consistently responsive to that. So that's what we're doing. That's, that's the end game.
[00:23:50] Julie: So the end game is that, and that's why I'm, I'm really kind of going, Hey, where's this trigger? Where's this trigger? Where does this start? Where is a moment where we can [00:24:00] shift the dialogue? Okay. And that I'm always looking, I work with moments. I don't work with the whole relationship in this big, kind of cloudy, vague way that doesn't get us anywhere.
[00:24:11] Julie: I work with, let's talk about this moment. I might take a moment and well, I will take a moment. I'll spend the entire session on that moment, because embedded in that moment is the entire relationship problem. You know, there's lots and lots of layers. We might not even get to all the layers of it. There's the, you know, the vulnerability, the sadness, the loneliness.
[00:24:34] Julie: There's, you know, the, the bodily response, there's the reactive feeling, the madness and the anger that comes up because of the hurt. There's the way that you view yourself and some shame issues. There's, you know, past trauma that comes up. So there's so many layers. So what I have to do going from there, is I, I have to have someone kind of own a behavior.
[00:24:56] Julie: And I don't care who it is either of you, I'm gonna [00:25:00] need to do equal parts of that for both of you. But I gotta get a behavior own that hey, this is a point at which maybe I could have done something different. You know, maybe just trying to convince him with a text wasn't the best approach. Or maybe just hanging up the phone wasn't the best approach and I have to work backwards from there and get that dialogue in a new way.
[00:25:21] Julie: So I just would like, you know, I invite one of you to kind of say, Hey, I'm willing to start here. Alright. So why don't we jump in, like who, who would like to start? And what I'm gonna try to do is hit both of you in this session. And what I'm gonna really try to do is, instead of, I'm not gonna do so much of a deep dive, I'm really just trying to understand right now what's going
on that you're needing to, what did you say?
[00:25:47] Julie: You said, I went, I, you're needing to go off the rails. You're not bad for going off the rails. Something really important happened,
[00:25:55] Julie: and I wanna know
[00:25:55] Julie: what that is.
[00:25:57] Bethany: I don't know if this'll help. Um, and [00:26:00] this is what I walked into this morning, but it stems from things that I've done in the past. Okay? So yesterday, I, I left here because, you know, we, we are living apart right now.
[00:26:13] Bethany: It was his night for our daughter. So I, I dropped her off. We decided that we were gonna spend the day together today because, you know, we, we had this session, um, we were gonna go to breakfast, do the session, and then hang out. And I'm gonna take our daughter to a movie later. So when I, when I went to bed, goodnight, I love you.
[00:26:33] Bethany: Or he asked about my friend friends of ours, or friends of mine who recently got divorced and what happened. So I texted all that to him last night. He was like, wow, okay. So then he said, I didn't expect you to say all of that. I, I had withheld information about another set of friends from years ago who were going through a tough spot.
[00:26:55] Bethany: And I didn't tell him about the incident that I knew about because he wasn't really [00:27:00] that, that good of friends with them. They were like more my friends. And so he was put off by the fact that like, I withheld information, but I, you know, he wasn't friends with them. I knew it would somewhat be a trigger for him at the time.
[00:27:11] Bethany: So I, I just didn't tell him. Um, and he found out like we, we were on vacation and it, so when I explained the entire divorce situation about my friend that recently got divorced, I, he was like, I didn't expect you to tell me all that. And I said, well, I learned from before. Like, you would, you wanna know the whole story, right?
[00:27:31] Bethany: So I, I told him the whole story. So then this morning I walk in, or last night I said, goodnight. Love you. Looking forward to spending the day together. He said, love you too, me too. And this morning I walk in and, and I was like, how are you? He was like, not good. I'm like, what's wrong? And he was like, I just don't know about this whole thing.
[00:27:45] Bethany: I don't know if this whole thing is gonna work. I don't know if it's gonna be worth it in terms of the counseling, the marriage, the whole nine yards. And I said, I, what, what did I do wrong? And he said, you didn't do anything wrong. And I said, what happened?
[00:27:57] Julie: Hold on, hold on one second. Let me
[00:27:59] Julie: clarify.
[00:27:59] Julie: [00:28:00] This happened today,
[00:28:01] Bethany: today, today.
[00:28:02] Bethany: So I walk in this morning and he's in this place of like, I don't know if this is gonna work. Um, I don't know if it's worth it. And I said, what did I do wrong? Like, that's immediately where I went. And I said, what happened last night? Nothing. Well, what, what did I do this morning? Nothing.
And I said, well, help me understand like what happened in less than 12 hours that all of a sudden, you know, we left in a good place.
[00:28:24] Bethany: I walk into a bad place. And then it came out that he was dreaming about us. And then he started thinking about all of these other things, like, you know, the way we started through the divorce process and flushing out the financials and then. How I, I didn't tell him about our, our friend who, you know, had an affair on his wife and or not our friend, my friend who had an affair outside of his marriage.
[00:28:49] Bethany: And, and all of these things are like coming up for him, and all of a sudden I walk into this bad place that I didn't expect this morning. And so it's, it hasn't, it hasn't been a bad morning. [00:29:00] It's been a little off. Um, but all I'm like, I triggered him some way.
[00:29:07] Julie: Okay. And so let
[00:29:09] Julie: me, okay, so you have this conversation last night about the friend.
[00:29:15] Julie: You leave out this information for you. It doesn't seem that, um, important. That was like four years ago. Okay. So you're kinda updating him on their divorce.
[00:29:25] Bethany: This is two separate couples. Yeah. This is two separate couples. So, okay. We ended up on vacation with the couple, the husband had an affair. His wife's best friend.
[00:29:37] Bethany: And I didn't tell him about it, but I knew about it going into us meeting up with them on vacation and it came out and he was like, you didn't tell me this. And I was like, well, this guy's really not your friend. I'm the one who graduated with him. They're friends with my sister. But he was mad
that I didn't tell him about it, but I just didn't really think it was relevant to our relationship or really anything.
[00:29:59] Bethany: It's not [00:30:00] like he hangs out with them. Um, and I, [00:30:04] Julie: okay, so
[00:30:04] Julie: lemme let
[00:30:05] Julie: me slow you down. So, so he's mad that you didn't tell him about this affair?
[00:30:09] Bethany: This was
[00:30:09] Bethany: like five years ago. Yeah.
[00:30:10] Bethany: Okay. Yeah. And then circle back to the present. When I have another set, I have friends who are going through a divorce. She was in our wedding and he asked what happened with that marriage and why it dissolved.
[00:30:24] Bethany: And so I, I texted him the whole thing as much as I, I could. Um, and, and it like. So summarized it very well, and he was like, I didn't expect to, for you to tell me all of that. And I said, well, I learned from the past time that, you know, you want, you want the full story. Right? So I gave you the full story, and then it just got like, and I thought I triggered him with something there.
[00:30:51] Bethany: Um, but it seemed to be okay when I went to bed. And then I walk into not a good place this morning.
[00:31:00] Julie: Okay. So,
[00:31:02] Julie: so you, you
[00:31:02] Julie: think right now that there might be something that you said in the context of this story that triggered him, but you don't know?
[00:31:09] Bethany: Yeah, I mean, I kind of know because he explained it this morning that it just brought up all of these things, um, and going to a place of, I don't know, it was just a bunch of things that came up.
[00:31:20] Bethany: It was like the divorce process that we had started. It was. How could anybody be friends with that guy who cheated on his wife with his wife's best friend? I don't know how you all still hang out with him. And I'm like, I don't hang out with him. You know, he is friends with my sister's group of friends.
[00:31:35] Bethany: Like it was all of these things. And I'm like, I don't, I, I hear what he's saying and that it's very bothersome and it's, you know, not a, that person didn't, was clearly wrong in what he did. Um, but he is like bringing it into to us. And, and I just don't think it's relevant to the situation in that like, neither one of us had an affair.
[00:31:58] Bethany: Neither one of us did [00:32:00] anything like that. But like, I'm being at fault or I'm shamed for my, a group of friends who supported this, this person. I don't know. It was just a weird place and I, I can't piece it all together. I can't piece it all together to make sense.
[00:32:13] Julie: Okay, so you're
[00:32:14] Julie: working hard,
[00:32:14] Julie: you're working hard to piece it all together.
[00:32:17] Julie: You know, I'm gonna have to learn more. I don't quite understand what, you know, clearly it was something important for him, right. So, um, so, but, but for you, the message that you're getting, this isn't fair, right? His, his stuff, his anxiety, whatever it is, his past traumas between the two of you is sending you this message that what?
[00:32:38] Julie: Okay, Julie, jumping in here. So I just asked Bethany twice, what is the message that you received? And this is so important and I'll explain why. So we can think of relationships as a series of interactions that either meet or unmet attachment needs. So what are attachment needs? Those are the needs that [00:33:00] must be met for a partner to feel emotionally safe and close to the other partner and vice versa.
[00:33:07] Julie: Examples include, I need to know I'm valuable to you. I need to know I'm lovable to you. I need to know I'm acceptable and worthy in your eyes. I need to know I'm respected by you. I need to know my needs matter to you. Securely attached couples, and those aren't all of them. There are a few more, but securely attached couples have their attachment needs met in the vast majority of their inter interactions.
[00:33:33] Julie: They feel loved, they feel accepted, they feel valuable. They feel like an equal and. When attachment needs go unmet in an interaction, this is an attachment rupture and insecurely attached. Couples have a lot of them, and then on top of that, they go unrepaired, and then they just start to really pile on top of each other.
[00:33:53] Julie: Sometimes to the point where I'm walking around the relationship feeling like I'm not really valuable. [00:34:00] And it's these unmet attachment needs or just kind of overall state of not having attachment needs met. And then on top of that, the emotional pain they create when they're unmet. This is what causes negative cycles and then negative cycles create more of them and less, of course, the couple knows how to just kind of immediately jump in and repair the rupture with a positive cycle, which is always the work I'm doing is getting couples to that point.
[00:34:27] Julie: So back to the message attachment ruptures start with the message. They don't come from thin air. One partner gets the message from their partners words or behaviors and. They get the message, you know, I don't, I don't really respect you right now. Right? And then from there we have, I feel small. I feel like my needs don't matter here.
[00:34:51] Julie: And to feel safe and close, I need to know that my needs matter to my partner. And then it goes to, and that leaves me feeling alone. And then it might even go to, [00:35:00] and what is it about me that's so not respectable? And this really hurts. So when I keep circling Bethany, back to the message that she received from Brian, not his direct words, but the implicit message.
[00:35:13] Julie: The attachment meaning, and sometimes it's a perceived message. Okay? I'm not even saying, it always comes from the person. Regardless. This is the message that their nervous system picks up based on the reality of the moment or maybe past wounds. And so I'm always searching for this unmet attachment need because when I know what's unmet, I can work toward getting that unmet need met.
[00:35:38] Julie: You can see how healing is shifting each and every one of their interactions from unmet needs to met needs, and making that define the relationship. And when the vast majority of interactions have met attachment
needs, or they can repair back when there's a rupture, now the relationship becomes securely attached.
[00:35:58] Julie: And of course, that's what I'm doing with Bethany [00:36:00] and Brian. But to do that I have to understand a lot about the unmet needs and more importantly, help them understand that all of what they're doing can be still down into unmet needs. So think about your relationship. What unmet attachment needs are you most vulnerable to usually?
[00:36:17] Julie: This will have to do what? Uh, with both, uh, what needs were unmet during your childhood most of the time. And so if you felt chronically unseen, this will be a big one for you. And when you get the message, your partner isn't seeing you, it's going to sting more than say, I, I don't know. Feeling appreciated For your efforts, maybe that's less important to you.
[00:36:39] Julie: Um, everybody's different. And what attachment needs is your partner most vulnerable to? And I'll have more about this in homework. And for those of you who didn't see the homework up for last session, we did have a technical issue, but it is up as of now. Alright, for now. So, back to Bethany, when I ask her, [00:37:00] what message are you getting with Brian's
[00:37:03] Julie: constant.
[00:37:05] Julie: I'm leaving.
[00:37:06] Bethany: He wants to quit again. He wants to quit. He wants to quit on us. He doesn't think it's gonna work. Um, doesn't know if it's gonna. Put in the work, and this is,
[00:37:15] Julie: but you don't know what you
[00:37:16] Julie: did between last night and this morning today. [00:37:19] Bethany: Right, right.
[00:37:20] Julie: Okay. You're kind of, you're left in the dark over here about what's really happening with him.
[00:37:25] Julie: And so I think what's gonna be most important is I need to kind of check in with what's going on with I'm done and I wanna leave the relationship. Is that, first of all, is that true or is that just kind of, you know, Brian, you being reactive and, and telling us about how painful this all is for you?
[00:37:45] Brian: Yeah, it, it's, it's painful and it's not even happening to me.
[00:37:49] Brian: Um, but there's other layers to the story. Um, the, [00:37:56] Julie: I
[00:37:56] Julie: wanna talk right now,
[00:37:57] Julie: I wanna focus on [00:38:00] saying this morning that you're leaving and, and understand more about that. 'cause that's a big piece here, right? If you're truly going to leave the relationship, that's gonna, I impact how we go forward with this session.
[00:38:13] Julie: I mean, I, and first of all, Bethany, are you okay? I kinda left you over there hanging.
[00:38:19] Bethany: Yeah.
[00:38:20] Julie: Okay.
[00:38:21] Bethany: Yeah.
[00:38:21] Bethany: I, I, I think another piece too is that any, I, I feel like anytime when the, when the going gets tough, when I make mistakes, big mistakes that have hurt him, whether it's financially or otherwise, it's always like, this needs to be done right.
[00:38:37] Bethany: This needs to be done. You need to go, this marriage isn't gonna work. Like time to go. Do you feel like he has one foot, one foot out the door all the time for like, for a long time? And I recognize that I've made mistakes, I recognize, but there's always been like, anytime there's been a mistake, a big mistake and, and they have been big, um, I, I, I, I will own [00:39:00] that, that it's always like, let's just quit it.
[00:39:03] Bethany: Like it's just not working. Let's quit.
[00:39:05] Julie: Okay. And then where does that
[00:39:06] Julie: leave your nervous system? When, you know, you get these messages over and over again. He is got one foot out the door and actually he has had two feet out the door. Um, well you have two, but like, what is that like, just kind of walking around the relationship, Al,
[00:39:24] Julie: is it kind of like always a little bit
[00:39:25] Julie: anxious?
[00:39:26] Julie: Is it always on guard?
[00:39:28] Bethany: Always on guard. Anxious, like walking on eggshells. Um, afraid that, like what is, you know, what is gonna be the straw that breaks the camel's back in, in his eyes? Um, is he, what is he ever going to, are we ever gonna get to a place where like, I can make a mistake or I can not make the best decision and, and he's gonna not support me, but, but not wanna run away.
[00:39:58] Julie: Okay. All [00:40:00] right. So you, this
[00:40:01] Julie: is a pretty, you know,
[00:40:02] Julie: you're describing a pretty hard situation, right? This is pretty bad. I mean, it doesn't get a whole lot worse in a relationship than, like, never really being able to feel safe. Right. What I would like to do is, is go over to him. I think it, what feels the most important for me right now is to kind of understand what's going on with him, that he's keeps going back to this place.
[00:40:24] Julie: Can, can we agree that, that Yeah. Like you, do you I do keep going back to over and over again. Like, I'm leaving. I'm leaving.
[00:40:33] Brian: Yes, I do. Okay.
[00:40:34] Julie: And where are you right now at this moment? Are you going, is are you in it or are you done?
[00:40:43] Brian: No, I, I, I'm engaged.
[00:40:45] Julie: No, no. In the relationship, are you?
[00:40:48] Brian: Yeah. I, I'm, I'm engaged in, in working on it. [00:40:50] Brian: I'm, I'm, I don't plan to quit. Um,
[00:40:54] Julie: but this morning that, that was, you were actually planning to quit. So this shift's pretty [00:41:00] fast, right?
[00:41:00] Brian: I didn't say that. I'm done. I said that, um. Uh,
[00:41:05] Bethany: Monday you said you were done though.
[00:41:06] Brian: I, I, I, I, I've been trending towards like this weekend, then it compounds into, you know, Monday and then it, it, I, I had some dreams last night and it just sort of didn't get back to sleep.
[00:41:21] Brian: And I just started thinking about all the negativity of, you know, what was happening, uh, when we were sitting in front of attorneys and like losing my family, losing my kid. And it's just like all the weight of, and the pressure of everything that's like in the balance here, it just becomes a little bit too much and Right.
[00:41:43] Brian: That probably stems from, you know, childhood. Um, you know, like I'm somewhat of a runner. I, I run away from the negative stuff in my life to find positive experiences and, [00:42:00] um. It's, it's so strange too. 'cause the most people would view me as like, I work hard to the end. You know what I mean? Uh, I don't, I don't let, I don't start a project and, and quit a quarter way through.
[00:42:14] Brian: I, I see it through like, what if it's, I gotta work at two in the morning to do it. I, I do it. And, but the what? That stuck.
[00:42:22] Julie: So let me,
[00:42:23] Julie: let me jump
[00:42:23] Julie: in here just so I can make sure that I'm, I'm following you here. So, you know, you said a lot of important things. You said the divorce proceedings, that was kind of traumatic.
[00:42:33] Julie: There's also all this other stuff that's happened in the relationship that's been traumatic for you. Um, you're distressed about losing your family. You're distressed about the prospect of staying with the family and always feeling like crap. And you are, you know, you've got work stress. I mean, sure there's a lot, you know, there's definitely childhood issues compounding on this, but that is enough to make it super painful.
[00:42:58] Julie: Just what you've described in the [00:43:00] here and now. Yeah, it's hard. That's a lot on your shoulders. And you know, the, it's, it speaks to who you are as a person and your resilience that even in spite of all this stuff, and even in spite of the hard stuff you went through in childhood, you're still the kind of guy that's gonna get the job done.
[00:43:21] Julie: Right. And, and that's a part of your life where we don't really have to do any work. But sometimes in relationships, the ga the game is a bit different. You know, the stakes are different. This is an emotional realm, right?
[00:43:35] Brian: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:36] Julie: And, and let me just balance that out with the fact that you're still here, that that's not something to ignore.
[00:43:41] Julie: You are still here, you are doing this work. [00:43:44] Brian: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:43:46] Julie: You're welcome. So keep going.
[00:43:50] Brian: So, you know, I, I feel like where I just get to the end of my rope so many times is just like the, the pressure builds for me. [00:44:00] I start thinking, I like to think to the furthest negative degree so that I know how hard I'll fall in whatever situation.
[00:44:10] Brian: And then anything above and beyond that can be a win for me in my own head. Um, and you know, in, in the divorce proceedings, like, yeah, I mean, there's a ton of things that we've done and said to each other and had fights or whatever, but I feel like ultimately I always had my family and her in my best interests.
[00:44:36] Brian: And there's been so many things that have just been emotionally crushing to me and a letdown and it's, it's not necessarily about the money, um, but it's just like the act or you know, what took place that just said like, I don't value you, I don't appreciate you. You're just gonna keep taking my shit [00:45:00] until you can't anymore.
[00:45:02] Brian: And then I get to the point where it's like, I can't, and then I feel like she manipulates my thinking to, to like go back to her, to like continue the punishment, so to speak. And it could be the emotional punishment, it could be the financial punishment. And I don't really get answers out of it from her, but tomorrow's coming and next week's coming and whatever.
[00:45:33] Brian: So I just get back out there and just keep grinding.
[00:45:37] Julie: All right, so let, let's see if we can get somewhere where you can stick, stick in this, but it doesn't have to. Eventually we can get to a place
where it just doesn't have to be such a grind, right? Because I agree it's better to get out of this than it is to stay indefinitely in a grind.
[00:45:54] Brian: Yeah.
[00:45:55] Julie: And so I wanna know, like you're giving me all these good reasons that the pressure builds, [00:46:00] you know, again, the past, the divorce proceedings, the money stuff, um, even now sometimes it feels like you get messages that she's manipulating you and you know, the loss of your family. I mean, and, and so when did this come to a head?
[00:46:14] Julie: Like, what happens last night you had this dream. What was the happening in this dream?
[00:46:19] Brian: I remember being on like a third floor apartment and just sort of like trying to squeeze through a tight space. And then she was doing something to prevent me to like get through there. And then like within a minute or two, it was 3:00 AM my alarm was going off to, to give our daughter medicine.
[00:46:41] Brian: And then I couldn't get back to sleep because I started thinking about our last conversation through text, um, with this, this friend from four or five years ago. That, you know, cheated on his wife. And, um, there's a big part [00:47:00] that that guy has played in our relationship because when we split up, he called the police on me.
[00:47:07] Julie: Okay, Julie, jumping in. So, what's happening right now is a perfect example of why dreams can be so powerful in therapy. When Brian is awake and talking about their conflicts, he often gets stuck in the details of who did what. But his dream bypasses all of that. It's a pure, unfiltered metaphor for his deepest emotional truth.
[00:47:29] Julie: He feels trapped and in his most vulnerable state, his mind casts Bethany as the one who is blocking him from getting to safety. My work here is not to interpret the dream, literally, but to use the feelings. It brings up the fear, the powerlessness, as a gateway to the unprocessed pain from real life events like the police incident he's about to share.
[00:47:54] Julie: So let's just take a moment to reflect. Think about a recurring dream or a powerful [00:48:00] image that has stayed with you without getting lost in the details. What is the core feeling of that dream? Often our
subconscious mind gives us pictures for the emotions that we don't yet have. Words for
[00:48:13] Julie: This guy
[00:48:14] Julie: that
[00:48:15] Brian: the adulterer called the police on me, and the very next day I called my attorney to have Bethany removed from the house or to
[00:48:27] Julie: why did he call, what, what, what caused him to call the police?
[00:48:31] Brian: Um, I had. Had surgery like about a week or so before, and I did not, I elected not to take my prescription, but I elected to drink alcohol instead. And I went to the fridge to fill up my ice. She opened it up, I thought on purpose to just disengage the ice maker.
[00:48:56] Brian: So I, I had one bum arm and [00:49:00] one arm that I took the top of the fridge and slammed it, but she was holding onto it, so she fell back. And next thing I know, this hero is calling the police. And, uh, I don't, I don't know what their relationship is. I, I don't, I don't know if you know he has an adulterous relationship with my wife.
[00:49:23] Brian: I know.
[00:49:24] Julie: Yeah.
[00:49:24] Brian: at face value. It's maybe a high school friend, but like their reaction to. His actions back then to me just was, it was like, it was no big deal. And I was like, that predator is hanging around the rest of your wives and he's already sleeping with one of the wives. You just don't care. Like, I just find that super strange that you just don't care.
[00:49:55] Brian: And
[00:49:56] Julie: okay, so you're giving me a lot of information. There's a lot of [00:50:00] layers here, and I'm gonna kind of distill it down into the stream, right? There's a lot of good reasons that that situation with the refrigerator, you know, in any circumstance if someone's calling the police, that's traumatic, right? So you're giving me all these good reasons that you're subconscious in
the middle of the night would go to this place and she's kind of blocking you from, from saving yourself.
[00:50:24] Julie: What's the message? You know, I, I get it, it's a dream, but like, what's the message you're getting from her? The dream when she's not letting you through with some meaning there.
[00:50:41] Brian: If you couple it with the divorce proceedings or the, the police being called, uh, it's, uh, I want you to fail and at all costs, I'm gonna win. And
[00:50:52] Julie: okay. And so if she's saying to you, I'm going to win, where does that leave you?
[00:50:58] Brian: In the loser's bracket. [00:51:00] And that's where I would be, I would, I would lose time with my, my daughter.
[00:51:04] Brian: I would lose, you know, a portion of my house that I would have to pay back. I'd, you know, I'd, I'd be really pushed to the limit. And I've, I've already felt at the limit for the majority, if not all of our marriage.
[00:51:23] Julie: All right. So, you know, in this place, you know, the. The messages that you're getting from her.
[00:51:32] Julie: And, you know, Bethany, I, I do understand it's not so straightforward for you, but you're getting this message that I'm going to win. I'm going to win. And that puts you in a loss, a major loss of everything you care about. And I'm guessing on top of that, she doesn't really care about what you're gonna lose.
[00:51:53] Julie: This is about her winning.
[00:51:56] Brian: Yeah.
[00:51:57] Julie: Okay. And so we're gonna, we kind of circle back to [00:52:00] this place again that we got to last week, last session, that she doesn't, she doesn't really care about me. She doesn't really care about my needs. Yeah. There is a part of you that really, really, really believes that. I think there's another part of you that doesn't believe that, but there's enough of a part and this part comes to haunt you and then you, something happens over there and you keep getting this message over and over by, you know, the stuff she's doing.
[00:52:28] Julie: She doesn't really care about me. And so you're kind of walking around the relationship over and over getting that message right?
[00:52:35] Brian: Yeah.
[00:52:36] Julie: Okay. And so I want you to just say that out loud that I, in this relationship, I keep, you know, I keep getting the message over and over and over that my needs really don't matter to her.
[00:52:52] Julie: Just say that to me. I'm sorry. Say that actually you're saying it to you. I don't want you saying it to her yet.
[00:52:58] Brian: Yeah. I, I, I do [00:53:00] feel that, you know, my, my needs don't matter and I'm not getting what I want out of it, and I feel taken advantage of.
[00:53:10] Julie: Okay. And if we, if we circle all that back, I'm not getting what I want And which is your needs to matter.
[00:53:16] Julie: And you feel taken advantage of that it's not just taken advantage of. There's other triggers. And it, it all kind of circles back to my needs don't really matter. And so I want you to just tell me like what comes up. Just as you say those words, I'm not real sure that my needs actually matter to my wife.
[00:53:35] Brian: I, I mean, again, it's a, it's a lonely feeling. Um, you, you just don't feel worthy. And then you question, what, what could I do to, to, to get the feelings of affirmation that I am worthy and what am I not?
[00:53:53] Julie: So there's where
[00:53:54] Julie: your brain,
[00:53:54] Julie: your brain, just really leaps from lonely to what do I do to get out of this?[00:54:00]
[00:54:00] Julie: Right? See, see, that's that. What we're, we're dealing with right now is the, how do I get myself out of this? But we skip over this really important stuff that comes first. Before that you said, look, I, I wrote you catastrophize the outcome. Okay. And how does that help you? What happens if you don't Let yourself go to the worst case scenario?
[00:54:23] Brian: uh, I don't know. I don't know if I've ever tried it, uh, in a healthy way. Um,
[00:54:34] Brian: I just get into like a survival mode. Um,
[00:54:38] Julie: I think there's something really safe about the worst case scenario. I think that what it is is that's how you regulate. That's how you've learned to regulate all this pain that comes up when you're saying to yourself and you're getting these messages. She doesn't even care about my needs.
[00:54:56] Julie: I'm like, nothing. I'm a second class citizen over here. Nobody's [00:55:00] gonna thrive in a relationship where they feel like that. And I think you do have a role in that now. That's what help both of you. But she's got a role too. And the reality is, is that nobody's gonna thrive when they don't know that their needs matter to their partner.
[00:55:15] Julie: And you said that's a lonely, painful place, and then the way you try to regulate that. You go to this worst case scenario because if I can take it all the way out to the worst case scenario, then what? You don't get surprised you don't get dropped.
[00:55:31] Brian: Things get better from there.
[00:55:33] Julie: So is it better to just kind of go to the worst case scenario than it is to worry about the worst case scenario?
[00:55:38] Julie: Or is it like your way of detaching or, I just need to understand why that's a safe place because that's the place that says I'm leaving.
[00:55:47] Brian: It's a way to detach. It's a way to move forward.
[00:55:50] Julie: What happens, Brian, if you don't detach, what happens? What happens if you, are you gonna just stuck? Stay stuck. Feeling like my needs aren't being met [00:56:00] and I'm all alone here.
[00:56:01] Julie: indefinitely
[00:56:03] Brian: I just keep pushing it down and, and I don't. [00:56:06] Julie: You do.
[00:56:06] Julie: You do.
[00:56:07] Julie: You do keep pushing it down, but then when it can't stay down, then you go to
[00:56:13] Brian: an
[00:56:14] Brian: outburst.
[00:56:14] Julie: Worst case scenario, detach. And then that's when you start and you can. Agree with me, or you can correct me here. That's when you start saying, I'm done.
[00:56:23] Julie: I'm leaving.
[00:56:25] Brian: Yeah.
[00:56:26] Julie: That's your way of regulating how bad you feel. You, you're not trying to just kind of keep her in this place of fear or make all these threats, are you? I don't, I don't get that.
[00:56:38] Brian: I, I certainly don't find any enjoyment by stating these things to her. I mean, it's, it, it comes from a, a place of pain whenever I do say it, and it's never really,
[00:56:50] Julie: it's
[00:56:50] Julie: not.
[00:56:51] Julie: Yeah. And I just wanna add here,
[00:56:52] Julie: it's not just that it comes from a pace of place of pain, it's your body's way of trying to stay safe [00:57:00] from what is the most painful thing you've ever felt in your whole life. Yeah. Which is being in a relationship, having a family, and being in a situation where you don't really feel like your needs matter and your body's been there before.
[00:57:12] Julie: That's how you grew up, right?
[00:57:16] Brian: Yeah. Oh. These,
[00:57:17] Julie: when in
[00:57:18] Julie: your life have
[00:57:19] Julie: you felt like you're really with someone in a very close, intimate way, and you just know for sure that your needs matter and that you're important and that you're valuable in their eyes? When have you ever been able to fully trust that?
[00:57:34] Brian: Uh, it was probably my grandmother.
[00:57:36] Julie: Tell me about that. I mean, I know we've talked about that at your individual session, but just kind of put some more words to that.
[00:57:43] Brian: Yeah.
[00:57:45] Brian: She just had this like,
[00:57:47] Brian: like real loving way of, it could be something about business, it could be a relationship. It just, any just normal stuff.
[00:57:56] Brian: She just had this way about her that [00:58:00] she could just talk straight to my heart and, and just make it sorta, I, I always felt like it was exactly what in my, in my body I wanted to hear.
[00:58:09] Julie: Yeah.
[00:58:10] Brian: And I don't know. She had, she had my back like. No other. [00:58:16] Julie: It sounds like that was a really, really special connection.
[00:58:19] Brian: It was. When it was special. She was tough too, you know, tough to deal with as an individual, but when you know, the night calmed down, she just always was just special.
[00:58:33] Julie: Yeah. So she could be tough too, but at the end of the day, it sounds like you knew that no matter what happens, she had your back no matter what happens.
[00:58:46] Julie: And that that embedded in that is that your needs really did matter to her. You were valuable to her. And I'm guessing that, you know, your whole life you've been longing [00:59:00] to have that, you know, in this relationship.
[00:59:06] Brian: Yeah, I've been longing for it to, to be replicated and you know, pass the torch on on and.
[00:59:12] Julie: And maybe sometimes, you know, I don't know that all this defines the relationship, but maybe sometimes you have felt that with Bethany and that's felt really good.
[00:59:22] Brian: Absolutely.
[00:59:23] Julie: Yep. And so I'm gonna circle you back here to those times when you don't have it, when you don't feel like she's got your back and you don't feel like your needs matter. That's the pain place. Where does that take you? Tell me again where that takes you.
[00:59:40] Brian: It's lonely. It's painful. You lose hope.
[00:59:43] Brian: Um, you know, you feel like you don't have a direction. You know, you're not worthy.
[00:59:49] Julie: Okay. So that's some big stuff. That's some big stuff. I mean, you just said it's, it's lonely. It's painful. It's hopeless. There's no direction. It's unworthy. I mean, those are pretty much the [01:00:00] worst depths of pain that humans can go to on top of that loss, you know, just to kind of.
[01:00:08] Julie: Keep organizing this here. It, it, you get these messages that your needs don't matter to her. Again, it doesn't have to define the relationship, but when it's happening, it's brutal. And it takes you to a bad, bad, dark place. It's a lonely place. It's a lost place. It's, it's a scary place. And then the way that you've learned to regulate that is to go into this safer place of detachment.
[01:00:32] Julie: At least you get to escape all those terrible feelings. Right. And then that is that when you start to say, I'm done. I can't do this anymore.
[01:00:43] Brian: Yeah.
[01:00:43] Julie: Okay. And then, and then the message that she gets is, is what?
[01:00:48] Brian: It's, it's over, it's, it's done. You know?
[01:00:51] Julie: Right. And then she gets anxious and that doesn't help her be her best self, and then she goes into her stuff.
[01:00:57] Julie: But we're learning right now that you're not just [01:01:00] randomly trying to, you know, scare her or just threaten her to get her to change or. You're just really trying to get yourself safe. You know, maybe there is some pieces of it that, that's maybe your way of trying to motivate her to change. And if there is that, we can talk about that too.
[01:01:19] Julie: But where, where my heart, where my heart is really feeling is this is more about you really trying to get yourself out of this really dark, painful place. Because if you go to that dark, painful place and you sit in it, how are you gonna even go to work?
[01:01:35] Brian: I mean, I, I'll power through just about anything, but, 'cause I have a lot of people depending on me, you know, my family and my employees and stuff, and tenants and it's just, you know, you absorb all of their problems and I just have to keep standing up to be strong.
[01:01:54] Brian: And there's times where I just feel like I could just collapse. 'cause I, yeah, I just [01:02:00] don't feel stable enough to, to go on.
[01:02:03] Julie: So
[01:02:05] Julie: it sounds to me.
[01:02:07] Julie: It, it really does sound to me like there's a lot, and I know this is paradoxical because it, we don't want this to have to be the case, but there actually is a lot of strength in going to that detachment place because that detachment place helps you kind of keep going forward.
[01:02:25] Brian: Yeah.
[01:02:26] Julie: The problem, problem with the
[01:02:27] Julie: detachment places,
[01:02:28] Julie: then it just keeps coming out. As you know, you're not really talking about all this stuff. You're, it just keeps coming out as, I'm leaving you, I'm leaving you, I'm leaving you. And so then that's the messages that now she is getting messages in this cycle that you don't care about her and you know,
she's not important to you and we, we know that, but right now I just want you to kind of, you know, what do you think it, it would be like to tell her, like when I'm telling you over and over again that [01:03:00] I'm leaving.
[01:03:01] Julie: It's actually my body's way of, of trying to regulate this enormous pain inside of me. And I, and I get that doesn't work for you. I get that has a bad impact on you, but that's really what's going on. What, what do you think it'd be like to share that with her?
[01:03:16] Brian: It might be eye-opening. Uh, like I, I feel like sometimes I have done that.
[01:03:22] Brian: . And I think probably not every time that I've said I'm done, I'm, I'm leaving. I want divorce, I want this, there's been like the other guy on the shoulder that says, dude, you don't want this. You know?
[01:03:37] Julie: Right. And we can talk more about that, but right now I'm just taking this little slice of it, which is, you know, I don't know how clear she is about what's really happening with you.
[01:03:49] Julie: I think that what she's seeing is just this one foot out the door and you're just kind of, you know, she can't do anything. Right. If, if she even messes up a little bit, you're gonna. Leave her, [01:04:00] but, but what's really happening with you is that you're not necessarily trying to push her away. You're trying to push how painful it feels to not know that your needs matter when you get those messages.
[01:04:15] Brian: Yeah. I, I, I feel like for like about a year ago, like when I moved out, like week on, week off, I stopped cutting the grass. I stopped doing things around the house. I stopped going out to dinner with her or even attempting to, and all of those things that I was taking away, I thought it would bring her back into realization of like where, where I was at.
[01:04:44] Brian: And instead it just pushed, pushed her further away. And then I was even more mystified that somebody is as, as intelligent as she is, could not put the context clues together. I don't know if I was necessarily [01:05:00] vulnerable in all of those, um, moves, but. I felt that those moves would make her realize like my worth or what I do around here or what I provide.
[01:05:16] Julie: Alright, Julie, back again. So this is a critical insight into the anxious avoidant dance. What Brian is describing is something I call the protest of absence from the outside, his behavior, you know, stopping his contributions, withdrawing his care, can look like he's just avoiding, or just doesn't care, just randomly doesn't care.
[01:05:36] Julie: But the motivation behind it is. Deeply anxious. He's so desperate to be seen and valued, so wounded by feeling like his needs don't matter, that he withdraws his presence in the hope that she will finally miss him and recognize his importance. And it's a flawed strategy that almost always backfires by creating more distance, but it comes from a [01:06:00] profound longing to matter to his partner.
[01:06:03] Julie: So pause for a moment and think about your own patterns. Have you ever withdrawn affection or stopped sending the text first or pulled back your efforts, or secretly hoped that your partner would notice the void and come chasing after you? Understanding the motivation behind that impulse is key to learning how to open up the conversation with yourself and with your partner about what feelings those behaviors are trying to communicate and what those feelings are needing in order to heal.
[01:06:33] Julie: Sounds like that was your way of trying so hard. To feel like you matter to her.
[01:06:38] Brian: Yeah. And, and it, it really, it just backfired, you know,
[01:06:43] Julie: well, what, what feels important to me? And we can talk more about that. But what feels important to me is that you're in a place where you're trying to, that's your way of motivating her to matter, to see how much you matter.
[01:06:55] Julie: Yeah. That this whole thing is designed [01:07:00] to know that you matter. This attachment need is unmet a lot of the time, and it feels painful. And then you go to, you do all these things to regulate that pain, but we're missing this piece of really sharing and talking to each other about the pain. Somehow that gets missed.
[01:07:18] Julie: I don't, I don't know if you've tried and it just hasn't worked. And that's my job to help that vulnerability land that I wanna see right now. What happens when you tell her? 'cause maybe you have told her that. I haven't seen you tell her. And so I wanna see what happens when you say, look. That it's such a pain place for me when I don't know my needs matter.
[01:07:38] Julie: It's, it takes me to this dark place and that's what ha what happens is I try to escape that by just telling, by, by trying to detach.
[01:07:48] Brian: Yeah. Sometimes like the, the weight of all my emotions going through these things with you. It's just, it's too much. And when I don't
feel supported and, [01:08:00] you know, like met halfway, then I just, I just spiral.
[01:08:09] Brian: I, I I, I just detach and I just try to get away from everything about all of, all of us, you know?
[01:08:18] Julie: That's beautiful. And I want, I want you to add to that, you know, that that's, when I say the, that's when I say I am leaving and I, and I can see how that, that hurts you when I say I am leaving all the time.
[01:08:35] Brian: I see that it hurts you in some and maybe a sick and twisted way.
[01:08:41] Brian: It's, it's like a, it's a eye for an eye. It's like, you've hurt me so bad that I'm gonna hurt you by leaving you.
[01:08:48] Julie: Right? And even that, Brian, even that is you trying to motivate her. That's your way of bringing attention to the problem. That's your way of trying to get her to see You gotta change. You [01:09:00] gotta change.
[01:09:00] Julie: So I, so we can get this better and I can know that my needs matter to you, but we have two good reasons that you go there. One is, I say I'm leaving because it's an eye for an eye. And that's my way of kind of motivating you to get it together. So this can work 'cause I gotta know my needs matter. And then two, it's the way that I regulate my pain to really convince myself that I, I just have to run away from all this.
[01:09:29] Julie: It's too much. I can, I can respect that. Maybe at the end of the day, that is what will need to happen. I'd rather see you detach than stay stuck in all this pain indefinitely.
[01:09:45] Brian: Right. I don't, I don't know what's, what the end game will be, but
[01:09:49] Julie: I don't either. And I would like to think that we don't have to go there. That we have, this is the work is sharing more about this with her instead of her [01:10:00] just seeing the move in the cycle. And I wanna check in with you, Bethany, like how does it feel for you to just hear this conversation and see a little bit more?
[01:10:12] Bethany: It's
[01:10:12] Bethany: very helpful.
[01:10:15] Bethany: Um, I think somewhere deep down, I suspected that was probably the case, but it doesn't make hearing it any easier. So hearing that there. There really isn't an intention of, of leaving or making me leave, however it's phrased makes me feel more safe. Okay. And that I don't have to put my head on my pillow wondering if, if tomorrow's the last day.
[01:10:42] Bethany: Um, so, so it's, it's helpful to hear and it, and it hurts my heart to know that I have caused him that much pain to, to have to
[01:10:58] Bethany: go to that place. [01:11:00]
[01:11:00] Julie: Okay. I, I, I would probably rephrase that as the cycle that you guys get stuck in. You really, I think at the end of the day you'll realize you're really not enemies.
[01:11:09] Julie: You're both trying, you're both just drowning and trying to get your needs met. But we'll get there. But what, what I hear you saying is that it's still really hard in those moments and it, it, it's never gonna feel good to hear your partner, say I'm, leaving. No matter how much you understand where they're coming from.
[01:11:27] Julie: Right. But it also, your heart opens up when you can see more of the pain that's going on that he's trying to regulate. He is really not just kind of actively trying to push you away. Right. He's trying to motivate you. He is trying to, if I can motivate her to get to get it together, then I don't have to feel so hurt and Right.
[01:11:48] Julie: If I can just detach, then I don't have to feel so hurt. And I would like to see you guys get better ways to not have to hurt going here, but I think what, you know, if, if we're gonna really do the [01:12:00] work here. Right. And you know, I, I only had time, sorry I only had time really to explore with you, Brian and Bethany.
[01:12:07] Julie: I'll spend my time with you next time. But if we're really gonna do the work here, we gotta move away from saying I'm leaving, I'm leaving. Needs to come from a place of a lot of thought, a lot of discernment and. It needs to come from a place where you really do mean it. Do you think we could do that? Do you think we could try to work toward not just saying that reactively when these feelings come up and instead maybe try to talk a little bit more?
[01:12:39] Julie: Maybe you could say to her, this is one of those moments where, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm hurting and I want, I wanna say I'm leaving. I wanna say I'm leaving. I have this urge to say I'm leaving, but I wanna do something different for us this time. Alright, Julie, back. So this moment is a huge step [01:13:00] forward. We are moving from simply understanding the cycle to actively trying to change it by setting a boundary around the leaving language.
[01:13:09] Julie: We are taking away Brian's primary, yet very destructive tool for regulating his pain. This is essential for creating safety for Bethany, whose nervous systems just goes into high alert every time she hears those words. But it also forces Brian to find a new, healthier way to communicate his distress.
[01:13:29] Julie: And so instead of threatening rupture, the new goal for him is to say, I'm hurting and I have the urge to say I'm leaving, but I want to do something new, something different. This is the first step toward building a new pattern where vulnerability not detachment becomes the path back to connection. So let's reflect on this.
[01:13:52] Julie: What is one rule of engagement that could make conflict feel safer in your own relationship? [01:14:00] Could it be agreeing to not raise your voices or taking a 20 minute time out when things get heated or just banning words like always and never. So creating these containers is crucial for making these difficult conversations possible.
[01:14:17] Julie: All right. And so that's gonna require that Yeah. That you, you kind of step into yourself and you say, Hey, you know, this is one of those moments where these feelings are coming up and I just wanna run away and I wanna start saying I'm leaving, but I don't really think that's gonna help our relationship.
[01:14:33] Julie: It's just gonna kind of reinforce that cycle and then, and then maybe share and, and see what happens. I don't know if the relationship, I don't know if you guys are ready to, you know, have a healing bonding conversation
about what's going on, but I do know this, we can at least do some damage control and work on not going to that reactive place that doesn't really work. [01:15:00]
[01:15:00] Julie: Okay. And then Bethany, if he is willing and able to be vulnerable with you, you know, and, and say, Hey, this is one of those urges, you know, I don't know exactly what the words would be, but maybe it would be nice to say, Hey, listen, I appreciate you sharing that with me. I see the effort,
I see the shift here, and it means to me, and it does actually help me feel more settled.
[01:15:23] Bethany: It would make me, and I, I am, I would love to have the opportunity to say that. . I would.
[01:15:29] Julie: All right. Well, let's see, um, how it goes. And we'll plan on picking back up then next week. All right, well, there you go. So let's just all take a breath together. Today's session was a journey into the heart of what it means to feel unsafe in a relationship.
[01:15:51] Julie: We explored how Brian's instinct to leave to detach and threaten divorce is not a calculated move to hurt [01:16:00] Bethany, but a desperate attempt to regulate his own deep seated pain and fear of abandonment. We saw how the memory of the refrigerator door incident compounded by the involvement of the police and a person he deeply mistrust, created a lasting wound.
[01:16:19] Julie: For Brian, it solidified his narrative that Bethany, in his most vulnerable moments, will not protect him and may even be out to get him. Of course, we know that's not the real truth. Bethany is truly on his team, but that's what negative cycles do. They make partners believe they are the enemies of each other.
[01:16:37] Julie: But that's not the truth here. The truth here. In this situation and in many of your situations out there, is that it's the reactive words and unspoken vulnerabilities of the cycle that are the real enemy. Brian's admission that divorce feels like an easier path, is a sign of his deep hopelessness. In these moments, it raises the stake for their work together and sets [01:17:00] the stage for the central challenge of the season.
[01:17:03] Julie: Can they learn to turn toward each other's fear instead of letting it just drive them apart? And next week, we'll see the other side of the coin as our focus will shift primarily back to Bethany, and we'll explore how Brian's repeated threats to leave impact her, and then reinforce her deepest fears of not being good enough.
[01:17:24] Julie: Now, for your homework this week, I want you to gently consider your own patterns. When you feel overwhelmed or hurt in your relationship, what is your retreat strategy? Do you shut down? Do you get busy? Do you pick a fight? Just notice without judgment. Alright, so as always, we'd love to hear your reflection.
[01:17:44] Julie: So send us a voice note or an email to
support@thesecurerelationship.com and we may feature your story in a future episode. Alright, well thank you for joining me today. Remember, healing isn't about perfection. It's about showing up even [01:18:00] when it's messy. So if  today's session was helpful, please take a moment to leave a five star review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
[01:18:08] Julie: It makes a huge difference in my ability to reach and help struggling couples. And again, thank you to Bethany and Brian for being here with us and letting us in on their world so that the three of us can help others heal in the very same way they're healing. Until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.

Trust & WoundsAttachment Styles

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 4: Why Does Leaving Feel Better Than Staying?

In this episode

Key takeaways

Keep going deeper

Understanding Shame

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

Transcript

Session 5: I Didn't Get Married to Throw it All Away

Session 3: When You Get Scared, I Get Scared