Session 1: Wifi Passwords & The Corny Suit of Vulnerability
In this episode
In the Season 2 premiere, Julie Menanno meets Bethany and Brian, a couple stuck in a painful cycle of conflict fueled by their anxious and avoidant attachment styles. A fight over a Wi-Fi password activates Brian's deep trust issues, while Bethany rationalizes to avoid his reaction. The session ends in a breakthrough as Brian steps into vulnerability for the first time, describing it as wearing a 'corny suit.'
Key takeaways
- Brian's anxious patterns and Bethany's avoidant retreat drive their painful cycle of conflict.
- A small fight over a Wi-Fi password activates Brian's deep-seated trust issues.
- Bethany copes by rationalizing her actions to avoid Brian's reaction, feeling cast as the 'bad guy.'
- Brian's first step into vulnerability—the 'corny suit'—begins to change their entire dynamic.
- Understanding your triggers is the groundwork for interrupting a negative cycle.
Keep going deeper
Hand-picked for this episode: Attachment Styles
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Wifi Passwords and The Corny Suit of Vulnerablity
[00:00:00] Julie: Hello everybody and welcome to season two of the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Manano, licensed therapist and author of Secure Love, and this season we're working with Bethany and Brian, a couple navigating intense emotional disconnection, unresolved hurt, and the question of whether they can even stay together.
[00:00:24] Julie: So imagine you and your partner are separated. Living apart, unsure if your marriage can survive. That's where Bethany and Brian find themselves after years of challenges. They're on the brink of divorce. They've been separated for a year, and this therapy is their last attempt to save their relationship.
[00:00:44] Julie: Bethany and Brian have been together for several years. Brian has an older daughter from a previous relationship, and Bethany is a very involved stepmother together. They also have a 4-year-old daughter. They both work full-time and Brian manages the [00:01:00] added pressure of owning his own business, and much of this season will focus on whether or not they can or should find their way back to each other.
[00:01:09] Julie: So unlike our season one couple, Melissa and Drew, Bethany and Brian's emotional cycles are more escalated, more chaotic, and often harder to interrupt. Things weren't always this difficult for Bethany and Brian. For the first few years, they were managing well enough, but after their daughter was born, their relationship really began to unravel.
[00:01:31] Julie: Tensions escalated, and about a year ago, they separated and started divorce proceedings. Then Brian had a change of heart deciding he wasn't ready to give up, and Bethany agreed to try again. Their journey is complicated by deep attachment wounds. For Brian Bethany's Past dishonesty about money created significant mistrust, and for Bethany, Brian's emotional absence during the postpartum period felt like [00:02:00] a profound betrayal to her.
[00:02:02] Julie: And these unresolved wounds feed into their current negative cycles where even small events can ignite big reactions. In this season, Brian is the anxious partner who shows up with a lot of protest and angry accusations in a desperate attempt to be heard. So if you have an anxious attachment, you will probably relate to some of Brian's behaviors when you become triggered and feel abandoned or betrayed.
[00:02:30] Julie: Bethany, on the other hand, is clearly the avoidant partner who often shuts down, overly relies on rationalizations explanations, and sometimes even secretive behavior in a misguided attempt to get Brian to not be mad. If you have an avoidant attachment, you'll no doubt rely on those strategies when feeling misunderstood and overwhelmed by conflict.
[00:02:56] Julie: Brian often says he's done and a part of him is done, [00:03:00] but some of his threats to leave are less about wanting to end the relationship and more about not knowing how to stay in it without continuing to hurt. Bethany meanwhile is still trying. She wants to repair the relationship, but finds herself repeatedly cast as the bad guy and it's wearing her down.
[00:03:18] Julie: Brian's work this season is primarily about learning to reach for Bethany with clarity to express his needs, fears, and longings directly without constantly circling back to anger and blame, and to make more space for Bethany's needs. Bethany's growth is primarily about reclaiming her voice, learning to assert her needs with confidence and authenticity, while also learning how to be more emotionally responsive to Brian's needs.
[00:03:48] Julie: At its core, this season asks a question many couples face, but few know how to navigate. What does it take to come back together when both [00:04:00] partners feel like giving up and go from an insecure attachment to a secure attachment? Now, you might think, this doesn't sound like my relationship, but if you've ever felt disconnected, lonely, rejected, or stuck in patterns of frustration and helplessness, you will definitely see yourself in the work we're about to do.
[00:04:22] Julie: Relationship struggles may take different forms, but the underlying emotions and needs are often universal. In fact, I always say that underneath all the surface details, I work with the same couple over and over again. So if you've ever felt done with the pain, the fights and feelings of disconnection, you will relate to Brian and Bethany.
[00:04:45] Julie: So here's the process we're working toward, and it applies to all relationships. One fewer negative cycles to begin with. Two, the ability to interrupt the negative cycles when they happen. And three, [00:05:00] making full repairs to restore connection when cycles can't be prevented. And all couples will go into cycles, sometimes even the healthiest of couples.
[00:05:09] Julie: And four, using all this background work to find lasting resolution to the foreground issues, couples struggle with, such as common ones, money, parenting, power, struggles, where to live, what to eat, and on the list goes. What I found over and over again in working with thousands of people is that when couples start communicating with vulnerability and safety and healthy assertion, the relationship symptoms will begin to resolve.
[00:05:39] Julie: But that doesn't mean it's easy to get there, which is why I'm walking you through the process slowly with Bethany and Brian explaining their process and my process as we go. So today I'm going to be focusing on understanding Bethany and Brian's negative cycle, just like we did with Melissa and Drew last season, the repetitive pattern of [00:06:00] conflict that keeps them stuck.
[00:06:02] Julie: So this first episode is a bit different from our previous season's opener as we're gonna be spending equal time exploring how both Bethany and Brian move within this negative cycle. Every couple has one, maybe one partner protests while the other defends or one shuts down while the other tries harder to bridge the distance.
[00:06:23] Julie: Recognizing and breaking these patterns is the first step toward healing. When couples achieve these goals, their relationship truly transforms. Negative cycles lose their power and connection becomes the default state. It's not a quick fix. It takes commitment, understanding, and new behaviors from both partners.
[00:06:43] Julie: So this season I'm also going to be inviting you, the listener, to reflect in real time when we work with somatic awareness in session, I'll invite you to check in with your own body. Where do these emotions live in you? When do you shut down? When do you [00:07:00] lash out? How might your own attachment style be playing out in ways that you don't even realize?
[00:07:06] Julie: At the end of each episode, including today, we'll offer a takeaway or homework assignment, something small but meaningful. Whether you are in a relationship healing from one or preparing for your next one, you're going to get something tangible to work with. So let's begin with a couple starting in the dark.
[00:07:25] Julie: Can they survive the brink of divorce and get past their own emotional blocks? All right let's dive in. And we're gonna start with Brian.
[00:07:34] Bethany: We've been in a bad spot since like Sunday afternoon.
[00:07:39] Julie: Okay. All right. Maybe we, that's an important thing to talk about then what happened? Sat Sunday afternoon.
[00:07:45] Bethany: I'll try to make the summary pretty short. So we have been living separately for nine months. We've been separated,
[00:07:53] Bethany: which
[00:07:53] Bethany: and. So I was here this weekend with our [00:08:00] daughter just Saturday night. Had a little family night and then, spent the night and then Sunday everything was fine.
[00:08:07] Bethany: Did the normal family Costco stuff. And then later on in the afternoon I wanted to, I'm very much a planner, like a prepper, right? .
[00:08:16] Bethany: So
[00:08:17] Bethany: thinking about this podcast, we had the microphones to be set up. He has since changed the wifi password since I don't live here anymore. And that's fine. I don't care about that.
[00:08:28] Bethany: But in setting this stuff up with your producer, I have. I asked is this something we should do on an iPad, on a laptop? Because I have a laptop and I'm thinking with two microphones, I have two ports. The iPad that we have been using for other things only has one. And so I said, we need to set this up.
[00:08:45] Bethany: Like I just wanna make sure it's going to work. I don't wanna feel rushed coming from work to the house to get all of this set up in a matter of maybe 10 minutes if it doesn't work. It's just how I function. And then in conjunction with that, I have to be back at work for [00:09:00] around 1 1 15. Okay.
[00:09:02] Bethany: Today, right now. So I was thinking on Sunday afternoon, how am I gonna swing this because I'm 12 minutes away from the office, I have a meeting with my boss, can I stay here and work is what I asked him. And I've asked him this on multiple occasions leading up to knowing that we were starting this today.
[00:09:20] Bethany: And he took that as you just want my wifi password. I don't know what you're gonna do with that information. I don't know what you're gonna do when I'm not here. And it was very triggering to him. And I kept trying to explain, I'm not trying to steal any information. I'm not an it pro. I simply wanna know how can I make my one o'clock meeting happen without either A, having to cancel it or B delay it.
[00:09:47] Bethany: And I didn't think at the time I do have a wifi thing where I'm staying right now. Like a portable one that I can pretty much take anywhere. So I, at the time, I didn't think I could bring it with me or should bring it with me, whatever. Starbucks down the [00:10:00] street isn't an option.
[00:10:00] Bethany: It's very loud. It's very small. How can I make all of this work because I'm squeezing this into my work as is he. But and it just spun it and it, and I think it, I know that it triggered him because. Leading up to our separation. I was preparing for divorce, I was, gathering documents, gathering information. And
[00:10:23] Bethany: he takes that as me trying to bury him in a divorce, which I wasn't trying to do. But as I also explained in this morning, like prepping for that was, I felt the need I needed to protect myself in some way, which I think people do when they're going through divorce. So that's started the negative cycle.
[00:10:39] Bethany: On Sunday, we had the opportunity, my daughter and I, to go back to my parents' house to have family dinner. I said when she wakes up from her nap, we're just gonna go have family dinner. And that in turn bothered him because he thinks that we have family dinners all the time and we really don't.
[00:10:54] Bethany: But yet, I'm pulling us away from what our own little family unit is. And we haven't had that much time [00:11:00] together. But I truly felt I needed an escape because I felt like nothing was going to get resolved in the conversation on Sunday night. So it was just best. That I took our daughter and I left for the night.
[00:11:11] Bethany: So as not to have things escalate. Okay. And
[00:11:15] Julie: okay, so lemme see if I'm getting
[00:11:17] Julie: this right. Yeah. Okay. All right. So lemme see if I'm getting this right on your end. So you're saying, look I'm overwhelmed. I'm trying to ke keep everything, stay on top of everything and I gotta get this mic set up on top of, all the other things in life you're doing.
[00:11:32] Julie: And, one layer of this is, this relationship is important to you. So you're, working hard for the relationship and now you're getting all these messages. You're just saying, I want the password, and now you're getting all these messages, you're trying to hurt me. You're trying to be sneaky and you're actually the bad guy here.
[00:11:52] Julie: And then that takes you to a bad place. Yeah. Okay. And then you go to a bad place and then you wanna just take your [00:12:00] daughter and then get just for this dinner and then you get messages. You're bad for doing that.
[00:12:05] Bethany: Yeah.
[00:12:06] Julie: And is that a place that you think you go to often is, he's seeing me as letting him down or the bad guy or, yeah.
[00:12:16] Julie: Okay. All right. So do you mind if I check out over here with him? I, you said something important, which is, I guess I'm curious about Brian, is what was happening for you? Something important was happening for you that your mind goes to. She just wants my password, so
[00:12:33] Brian: she's very calculated it to me.
[00:12:35] Brian: It comes off as sneaky. Like in, in our one-on-one meeting last week, or I'm sorry, not our one-on-one, but our group meeting together for the sound. She throws in there the apple products and setting up the mic and it's already on her mind as if she can get in to be the front runner of getting some [00:13:00] info.
[00:13:00] Brian: And I just, there's a lot of elements of trust with her because she can stare at you straight in the face and be completely boldfaced lying to you. And she's really good at that because that's what she does for a living. She withholds the truth in order to gain and that's her job.
[00:13:26] Brian: And I felt like I was So
[00:13:29] Julie: what did you think in this moment? What is the lie in your mind when she says, what's the password? What do you think she's withholding from you?
[00:13:38] Brian: She could. Go through the router, check out websites, check out whatever I'm doing. She's gone through my phone figured out my passwords for iPads or phone.
[00:13:51] Julie: And if she does this stuff,
[00:13:52] Julie: like if she does this stuff, what's gonna happen? Is she gonna hold it against you? Is she gonna,
[00:13:58] Brian: yeah, absolutely. [00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Julie: And then if she holds it against you, like, how's that gonna impact you? If she holds things against you, is that gonna hurt you in a, is this kind of circling back to the divorce situation where she's trying to get a leg up on that or,
[00:14:15] Brian: I think so to a certain extent and I'm sure, okay, she has her own reasons as to why, she made those moves as well.
[00:14:25] Brian: From my behavior.
[00:14:26] Julie: Sure. And
[00:14:26] Julie: it's not always
[00:14:27] Julie: gonna be, you guys aren't always gonna have the same perspective and I appreciate you recognizing that, but just if we kind of stick with your nervous system perspective here, it's like when you hear that she wants that password, your body goes into alarm bell somehow this feels threatening, this doesn't feel safe for me.
[00:14:45] Brian: Yeah.
[00:14:47] Julie: Okay. And so again if you give her that password and like this is all true and what you fear is gonna happen is all true, then she's going to find all this information to use [00:15:00] against you. Use against you.
[00:15:01] Brian: I'm not exactly sure what she would find but I just feel
[00:15:05] Julie: but
[00:15:06] Julie: maybe what
[00:15:06] Julie: it is that she's trying to find something.
[00:15:10] Brian: Yeah,
[00:15:10] Brian: I,
[00:15:10] Julie: whether there's something there or not. It, I'm guessing it doesn't feel very good for you to think that she's actually trying to find things to hurt me or to use against me.
[00:15:20] Brian: Yeah. I feel like she just looks for the negatives in me. Shades of negatives to exploit for whatever reason.
[00:15:32] Julie: So it's like in this part of you, and I don't, this doesn't have to define the relationship or your feelings about the relationship, but there's this part that says she's just looking for the negatives because she just wants to exploit me.
[00:15:47] Julie: There's a part that it sounds like, that part of you really does fear that or believe that maybe you've had some experiences where you felt exploited
[00:15:59] Brian: [00:16:00] 100%. When you are in a relationship or a friendship or a partnership. Whether it be platonic or business there's a lot of information that is exchanged that is near and dear to your heart, or a strategy or whatever it may be.
[00:16:21] Brian: And when you let somebody into that space and then they take advantage of that information on the backend, there's a humongous, like breach of trust to me.
[00:16:34] Julie: And so what you're worried about is that, you have had these experiences where you have felt that your trust was breached.
[00:16:45] Brian: I don't have enough fingers and toes to count.
[00:16:48] Julie: And so in this situation, what happens is you hear her say, I want the password, and then bam, you go back to this feels, this doesn't feel safe. I have had these experiences [00:17:00] where I've felt exploited. Your nervous system just doesn't trust.
[00:17:04] Brian: I would agree with that statement.
[00:17:07] Julie: Okay. And is that when you start to feel uncared for
[00:17:10] Brian: Very much
[00:17:11] Julie: and so I want you to just, say that out loud and just to yourself here is just, yeah, I do, end up in these moments feeling uncared for my, my needs don't matter so much.
[00:17:26] Julie: And just put words to that and see what comes up.
[00:17:30] Brian: Having a hard time finding the words. But I,
[00:17:33] Julie: can we just be
[00:17:33] Julie: simple and say,
[00:17:35] Julie: Could we just be simple and say, yeah, there are times when I don't know that my needs really matter to her.
[00:17:43] Brian: I do feel that way. I feel especially as our,
[00:17:47] Julie: I want you
[00:17:48] Julie: to say that.
[00:17:50] Julie: I want you
[00:17:50] Julie: to say that to me right now. Not so much to her. I just wanna see what happens when you really just put some words with that.
[00:17:58] Brian: I feel like since our [00:18:00] family has grown my needs do not matter. I've fallen out of rank.
[00:18:08] Julie: Okay. So slow down with me there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna slow you down here.
[00:18:12] Julie: I want you to just, close your eyes and I want you to see what comes up. Just as I say, I've fallen out of rank. Just as I say those words, I've fallen out of rank and I want you to tell me what comes up. What's it like for you to feel that you were at the top of the list and then you lost it and you fell out of rank.
[00:18:36] Julie: Does that bring up anything for you?
[00:18:40] Brian: I felt like throughout these last three years that. I just wanted to connect with her, like the way that we used to connect. And there always seems to be so something.
[00:18:53] Julie: So you're
[00:18:53] Julie: telling me, you're telling
[00:18:55] Julie: me right now what you do when you feel disconnected and when you feel out of [00:19:00] rank.
[00:19:00] Julie: I wanna know what it's like for you to feel out of rank. Is that like a sad place? Is that a place of loss? Does it feel like a loss?
[00:19:10] Brian: It feels like a loss. It feels lonely. It feels okay. Empty. Okay. It feels like you don't have a purpose.
[00:19:23] Julie: Okay. So those are some pretty big words, right?
[00:19:28] Julie: That's a loss. It's lonely, it's empty, it's purposeless.
[00:19:35] Brian: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Julie: How often do you put words to those places?
[00:19:45] Julie: Is this something that you ever really talk about these places in you?
[00:19:51] Brian: No. Yeah. I don't. I don't normally become vulnerable. When I [00:20:00] feel like I'm getting taken advantage of or my needs are not being met I probably just get this tougher, calloused, thicker skin.
[00:20:13] Julie: So the way that what you're telling me is really important, and you're doing such a great job here, is you're saying, look, when that vulnerability in me gets touched in these moments, even if she wants the wifi password, I go to all these places that I get scared because it's I don't know if my needs matter to her right now.
[00:20:29] Julie: If she's just wanting to use all this against me, of course you don't think your needs matter. That's like the worst thing someone can do is try to get information to use against you. That takes you to a devastating place of loss, of loneliness, of emptiness, of purposelessness. And then what you're saying is the way that you've learned to regulate those places is to get tough.
[00:20:51] Julie: Something about getting tough has been safe for you. What is so safe about getting tough? Is that your way of not having to hurt? [00:21:00]
[00:21:01] Brian: Yeah. I, and I have, I think I have a history in my life personally going to that place. Because there's been so much hurt and unfortunate circumstances that if I just get up, dust myself off, act like it doesn't matter and work harder or get something in front of me to pass the time, then I don't really have to confront, the emptiness, the loneliness, the no purpose, feelings, and, but it, in the end it's a no win situation be for me personally, because those feelings are. Thousand miles behind me and I still haven't dealt with them.
[00:21:57] Julie: Okay, Julie here. So this is such a [00:22:00] critical moment in our session with Brian, what you're hearing is the origin story of his protective shell from an attachment perspective, his pattern of getting angry or shutting down, it isn't random. It's a learned survival strategy that is rooted in a deep fear of vulnerability.
[00:22:19] Julie: And so when he feels the slightest tent of his needs not mattering to Bethany, it triggers this profound sense of loss and loneliness that he is just carried around his whole life. So my goal here is to slow him down and help him connect with the vulnerable part of himself that he has just learned to push away with hard work and a tough exterior.
[00:22:43] Julie: So instead of letting him stay in the story of his anger, I'm guiding him to feel the underlying emotion. The loneliness, the emptiness, and locate this in his body. This is the first step to healing him and helping him express his core needs [00:23:00] directly rather than just, staying stuck in protesting with anger.
[00:23:04] Julie: Okay, so pause for a moment and reflect on your own life. What is your go-to strategy? When you feel hurt or vulnerable, do you, like Brian, get tough and work harder? Do you withdraw or do you try to fix it? Or do you go into these kind of angry blaming protests where you're just trying to get your partner to change so you don't have to hurt?
[00:23:28] Julie: Recognizing your own protective pattern is the first step toward change. All right, so what you're telling me then, and you can correct me if I'm not getting it right, but you have in your life had to deal with some pretty big feelings of loss and loneliness and purpose. Lessness, those are places that you know, but you haven't really had a ton of help in that place.
[00:23:53] Julie: And so you just had to learn. And thank God you did because it's helped you in life to get tough, [00:24:00] work harder, push it away. And it sounds like in some ways that's been pretty useful for you.
[00:24:08] Brian: It's been a big motivator.
[00:24:10] Julie: What does it motivate you to do,
[00:24:14] Brian: succeed?
[00:24:16] Julie: And if you can succeed, then you don't have to go to these painful places.
[00:24:24] Brian: Yeah, I can get to places that make me feel loved and comfortable and happy. And proud of what I've accomplished or what I've been through and still be able to make it to the other side. That's.
[00:24:43] Brian: That's I don't, that seems like where I always end up anyways. It just seems in some way or another I always get let down or hurt and instead of just laying there to die at that feeling of hurt. I just pick up the pieces and [00:25:00] keep moving.
[00:25:02] Julie: Okay. So it sound, it sounds like then, no matter how much you get it right, no matter how much you succeed you work, your whole life is dedicated to succeeding.
[00:25:17] Julie: But still band, this place comes back to find you sometimes where you end up with all this stuff being activated, the loss and the lonely and the empty. It does keep coming to find you. And in those situations that what you've learned to do is just pick yourself up and keep going because the only other option is death, is just living with it.
[00:25:37] Julie: What would it be like to just live with it, to live in that place all the time? What do you think happens to people who get stuck there in the darkest place?
[00:25:47] Brian: I don't know. Maybe drug use, maybe some kind of escape, it could be suicide. It could be drug use, it could be, alcohol [00:26:00] use.
[00:26:00] Brian: It could be just feeling like you just wanna run away, I don't know where too, but,
[00:26:06] Julie: yeah. I'm wondering, when you get in these cycles, right? And, just to map it out here what you hear from her is. Your needs don't really matter to me. My need to get a leg up here is more important.
[00:26:18] Julie: I'm gonna actually like, use these things against you. That's a crappy place to go. And so with that, what happens is bam, that takes you to if that all, if all that's true, I'm just, I'm not loved. I'm alone. I'm, that's an empty place. That's a terrible place. And so then your body says, I don't wanna go there.
[00:26:40] Julie: And what you're used to doing is you're not used to talking about that and putting words to that place. You just get angry, right?
[00:26:49] Brian: Sometimes I'll get angry, sometimes I'll shut down. I feel that shutting down is probably the best solution. [00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Julie: Before you shut down, you said. You said a minute ago you said, yeah we say some really mean things to each other.
[00:27:06] Julie: So what do you think she sees when the mean words are coming? And I understand she goes to her mean place too, and that's a conversation that we have to have with her too. But right now, just sticking with you, do you think she sees that these mean words are your way of trying to get this situation changed to where you guys can feel actually close and connected?
[00:27:32] Brian: I don't feel that she sees that at all.
[00:27:34] Julie: No. What do you think she sees? She probably just sees that you're trying to hurt her and that you don't really care about her needs. I'm guessing that's what negative cycles do, right?
[00:27:45] Brian: Yeah. To a certain extent. Yeah.
[00:27:46] Julie: That, those hurtful words they have, they, they're really they're actually hoping and reaching for dis or for connection because the state of disconnection feels so bad.
[00:27:56] Julie: They're trying to reach her. Of course we know that doesn't work, [00:28:00] but that's what they're trying to do. But usually what people think and what they see when they see the hurtful words coming at them is that you're just trying to hurt me. But there's really a lot more going on with it than that. Do you think she knows that?
[00:28:14] Julie: Is this something that you tell her?
[00:28:19] Brian: Not in the way that you're stating it now.
[00:28:22] Julie: So what do you think it would be like if you said to her, when I'm in that place where, you see the anger and you see the hurtful words, it's, under, underneath that is some hope that we can get back to a place of connection. I know it doesn't work for you, but it's not actually just me randomly trying to hurt you
[00:28:47] Brian: In this situation.
[00:28:48] Brian: I felt like it was already implied. And somehow, some way in this altercation, it gets [00:29:00] twisted and turned into a direction that I didn't want it to be. But here we are. And she, in her response to it I feel like she just gives me like the upper management smile and a handshake walk down as to it doesn't really matter to me.
[00:29:24] Julie: No.
[00:29:24] Julie: So that's
[00:29:24] Julie: the trigger, right? You're talking right now about the trigger, which is any of these moments are gonna, are, the trigger is always gonna be about this message that your needs just don't matter. You're nothing. You're all on your own buddy.
[00:29:40] Brian: Yeah. And that's ultimately how, and then to just, how it ended up was I'll take our daughter and I will exit stage left, and you'll be here to think about what it is that you did or didn't do.
[00:29:55] Brian: And we will go to another place and our happy [00:30:00] place and you'll just be here alone.
[00:30:04] Julie: And again, that's the trigger, right? And where the trigger takes you. If we just really stick to you and what happens with you is that takes you to a pretty awful spot where you, like you said, you feel isolated and you feel alone.
[00:30:19] Julie: And that, is that where you wanna be in life? No. No. What would it be like to just live the rest of your life like that, where you just. You just always feel like these moments keep coming back to find you that leave you feeling isolated and empty.
[00:30:40] Brian: Just that empty, sad. .
[00:30:42] Julie: Yep.
[00:30:43] Brian: Unfulfilled.
[00:30:43] Julie: Yep.
[00:30:45] Julie: So it
[00:30:46] Julie: makes sense to me that's a fear. Anybody fears that? Everybody fears that. That's just a real human thing to fear. So your body says it, it gets angry, the anger builds up. Does the pressure [00:31:00] just build around that this isn't where I wanna be, this feels bad, this takes me to the painful place.
[00:31:05] Julie: How could you do this to me?
[00:31:08] Brian: Yeah. The pressure is immense constantly.
[00:31:11] Julie: And so at some point the pressure gets to a breaking point and at some point that's gonna show up as a fight, right?
[00:31:26] Brian: Yeah.
[00:31:27] Julie: And I think what I'm really trying to highlight here is that fight isn't random. The fight is a hope to get back to the state of connection so you don't have to go to the dark places. You think she sees the hope in the fight?
[00:31:50] Brian: No, I don't.
[00:31:52] Julie: Okay. So I want you to tell her that right now, that in that fight that you see, there is hope [00:32:00] there, that we can get back to a safe place for me, a safe place of connection.
[00:32:12] Julie: Can you just share that with her?
[00:32:15] Brian: Yeah. I feel a lot of my words or actions are misconstrued very negatively when. I'm just seeking peace in my life and peace amongst us.
[00:32:34] Julie: So I'm just gonna add, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause you here and I just want you to say this really simply because, of course they're getting perceived negatively 'cause they're coming at her negatively, right? That's what these cycles do because what she's not seeing is she's not seeing this tender part of you that has been in lonely before, that has been in empty before and does not wanna go back there.
[00:32:57] Julie: And you certainly don't wanna go back there. [00:33:00] And this relationship
[00:33:05] Julie: and this wounded part of you gets really scared. And then that fight is what you've done your whole life to feel safe. It lands on her negatively, of course, just like her fight lands on you negatively. But I want you to tell her in that fight is my hope that we can find each other
[00:33:29] Brian: in that hope is, or in that fight is my hope that we can get back to somewhere that we felt like we always were.
[00:33:40] Julie: How does it feel for you to put some new words to this instead of just instead going into the fight, you're sharing more about what that fight is needing?
[00:33:50] Brian: It feels different. It feels like I have a corny outfit on.
[00:33:54] Brian: Okay.
[00:33:55] Julie: Let me check in with her. And I appreciate you saying that because that's [00:34:00] what, vulnerability feels like for people who are new to it. And that actually really helps me know how important this relationship is for you, that you're willing to put a corny outfit on.
[00:34:14] Brian: Or
[00:34:14] Brian: a suit
[00:34:14] Julie: here that's commendable.
[00:34:16] Julie: Or a suit. A corny suit. I appreciate you putting that corny suit on, and I'm guessing that Bethany, you also appreciate that. Does this feel different for you? How does this hit your heart?
[00:34:31] Bethany: I'm a crier So sorry.
[00:34:32] Julie: No, that, this tears are just appropriate.
[00:34:37] Bethany: It feels good to hear it. I think. I think all along I've known that this. You articulated it way
[00:34:47] Bethany: better than
[00:34:47] Bethany: I could have ever.
[00:34:49] Julie: Okay. Julie here. So what you just heard was Brian taking a huge risk. He was willing to put on what he called the corny suit of [00:35:00] vulnerability. And in doing so, he completely changed the emotional music of their conversation.
[00:35:07] Julie: Instead of his usual anger and threats, which are flawed bids for connection, he shared the hope underneath the fight. This is the heart of the work we do, getting beneath this reactive, protective place to the softer, more vulnerable emotions underneath. And you heard Bethany's immediate response, tears of relief for the first time.
[00:35:33] Julie: She's not seeing Brian as the aggressor, but as a partner, longing for connection. And this is exactly what we need to happen. This is co-regulation. Brian's show of vulnerability helped Bethany's nervous system relax. I co-regulate Brian by understanding him and helping be with his feelings in a new way.
[00:35:53] Julie: And he in turn was able to co-regulate Bethany. And over the course of the next several weeks, they're going to be learning to do [00:36:00] this on their own. But what you're also going to see here is how quickly Bethany leaves her emotions and goes back up into her head to just keep trying to make sense of the situation.
[00:36:12] Julie: And there's nothing wrong with making sense of a situation. That's why we have brains. That's why we think we need to be able to do that. But a big part of their work is going to be for each of them to learn how to stay in their feelings and with each other's feelings for longer periods of time than what they're used to really lingering there, taking it in before, just frantically going up into their heads.
[00:36:36] Julie: Nobody needs to get stuck in their emotions. That's not what we're trying to do here, but leaving them too soon is a form of emotional self abandonment and those who self abandon their own emotions, also self abandon their partner's emotions because we tend to help others in the same way we help ourselves.
[00:36:55] Julie: If I'm helping myself by leaving my emotions, I'm certainly gonna try to help you by [00:37:00] also trying to get you out of your emotions and we'll talk more about that as we go. But for now, just notice how quickly Bethany pivots. And she's not doing anything wrong. Every partner I treat has a hard time holding the emotional experience for very long before they just jump back into their heads.
[00:37:19] Julie: That's why she's here, and it's my job to teach her how to do it differently. Now we're going to shift our focus to Bethany's experience in this cycle. We know that when Brian escalates, Bethany tends to withdraw, rationalize, or shut down, and our work now is to understand the fear that drives her to that quiet, withdrawn place and help her reclaim the voice that she's just learned to silence.
[00:37:46] Bethany: I feel he's more easily triggered than I am.
[00:37:51] Julie: Okay.
[00:37:51] Bethany: So it's always me who's or who is causing him to be triggered. Yeah, I get an, I could get [00:38:00] annoyed with things from him, but it, in my opinion, unless it's a really big deal, I don't harp on it too much or I just let it go. But then sometimes if I do bring things up, it somehow circles back to me like, okay, like it's turned around on me.
[00:38:18] Bethany: For me. I feel like when he is triggered. No matter what I say, it's not the right answer. It's like a multiple choice question.
[00:38:24] Bethany: Or it's like an essay question. And no matter what you write, it's not the right answer. I can't get any points for it.
[00:38:29] Julie: You're already set up to lose a game that you didn't quite know you were playing.
[00:38:33] Julie: Yeah. And you don't know the rules too. Okay. All right, so when we talk about, both of you mentioned tit for tat, keeping score, deflecting each other's concerns. You're, what you're describing are moves in these cycles, right? They're things that both of you are doing to somehow stay protected, feel safe, get through to each other.
[00:38:56] Julie: So maybe just paint me a picture of the last [00:39:00] time this happened where you got stuck in tip for tat keeping score deflecting. No right answer. Do you wanna talk about the internet thing that.
[00:39:11] Brian: No, I feel like we're beating a dead horse with it. We talked,
[00:39:14] Julie: we're not beating a dead horse because what we're doing is we're getting to, we're using the horse to get to the emotional pattern.
[00:39:23] Julie: It, regardless of what topic we talk about, we're gonna go into tit for tat, keeping score deflect, and that's where I wanna work. So I just, I need just a weigh an inlet into that. Okay.
[00:39:35] Brian: We could talk about our daughter is going in for tonsil and adenoids surgery.
[00:39:41] Bethany: Friday,
[00:39:42] Brian: this is coming Friday, and I believe it was last Thursday or Friday Bethany had called me and just like in, in a manner that I felt was like trying to [00:40:00] connect with me and.
[00:40:02] Brian: Be on the same page, together, even though we're apart and just, to be able to co-parent our daughter through this situation. And I felt like she explained, they had this time available. We were on a cancellation list, and she's going through her schedule, and I got these days off and those days off, and then e eventually I just said, I'm pretty sure that you already made this appointment without even talking with me.
[00:40:34] Brian: And I just got upset and I just hung up the phone. Okay. And I feel like my feelings weren't considered, or my schedule wasn't considered. And then. Then if it plays out the way that she wants it to play out, then if I'm unavailable, then it's like like a mark against me. Like I wasn't there [00:41:00] for our daughter and but it's never taken into consideration like what I'm up against and in my world with work. Okay. But it's,
[00:41:10] Julie: so what happens when you get these messages? If it's this situation or any situation, like what happens to you when you get the message your needs don't matter. Is that when you get angry, like your body says this isn't right, this isn't how I wanna be, and then the anger comes.
[00:41:29] Brian: I don't know if I was necessarily angry. Okay. I was. I was feeling like just left out like my, my life or my needs are just, they just don't matter. It's just we're gonna march on with our agenda and you're just a sidecar in this journey.
[00:41:45] Julie: Okay. All right. And so you're feeling left out and alone, and then with all that, what you end up doing is just hanging up.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] Brian: Yeah.
[00:42:01] Julie: So Bethany, when he hangs up, what happens for you just in this cycle? What message do you get?
[00:42:12] Bethany: That I clearly did something wrong.
[00:42:15] Julie: Okay.
[00:42:16] Bethany: But I, in this instance, I didn't know what I did wrong because I've really been trying to be cognizant and aware. Of his feelings around this area. And making sure that he feels included and he feels needed.
[00:42:33] Bethany: And like the rationale in my head when I booked it, and yes, I did book it before calling him. But if you've ever been in that situation it's like a random scheduler who calls you. Okay. We're already on a high priority cancellation list. They gave us two more options the month before one, which would've interfered with our vacation that we took to Florida, in which our daughter wouldn't have been able [00:43:00] to get on an airplane or go swimming.
[00:43:03] Bethany: And then the other option was like, less than 24 hours notice, and my mental state just couldn't wouldn't handle preparing for being off for two weeks with less than 24 hours notice. Yeah. So in my head I'm like, okay, this is a week's advance notice. I've got the random scheduler on the phone.
[00:43:22] Bethany: I can book it. Given that I have a lot of time off next week, it's a really good time at work. So that's covered. There's the following week, which will likely still maybe be a little bit slow. So that's good for me. And historically, anytime one of the kids has been sick, I have always been the one to stay home because I can stay home and either work or get paid.
[00:43:52] Bethany: Because I have time off where that doesn't work for him. If he doesn't go to work. He doesn't get paid. Sure. So [00:44:00] that's just how we've always done things for years and years. So in my head, I'm booking with the scheduler, with the intent of calling him, going through all of these things.
[00:44:09] Bethany: Saying, if you feel strongly about this, I will call back and schedule, but I didn't wanna lose the opportunity to get the appointment and then have to go back through pushing seven buttons to get to this person to book it again. Got it. And if he's busy at work and can't hear his phone ring, how long till he calls back?
[00:44:29] Bethany: What if he doesn't see the text message? I don't know the variables in his day at that point in time. And so I feel like I did all of the good things and then I'm still like, okay, I did something wrong and I can't figure out what it was.
[00:44:41] Julie: All right. So you've got all this to manage and you're not in your heart, isn't trying to leave him out.
[00:44:46] Julie: You're actually, your heart is trying to bring him in. But somehow you end up again with this message, I'm getting it wrong. And no matter what I do I'm still gonna be in this wrong role. [00:45:00] Yes. Okay. And then what happens for you right there? I know one thing is you get blindsided and then do you feel, what else comes up in your body?
[00:45:11] Julie: Just
[00:45:13] Bethany: It's just like I've thrown my hands in the air. Like I, this is just another example of I feel like I, I can't have the right answer. I don't never have the right answer. I don't do anything in his eyes that I'm failing his expectations yet again. But I didn't know the expectations going into it.
[00:45:32] Julie: Okay. And is that like a frustrated place? I know there's some vulnerability under there, but do you get frustrated? Okay. For sure. And understandably. Sure. And I wanna talk more about that. And then what do you, what did you do right there? What was your response?
[00:45:46] Bethany: I didn't have a chance to have a response because he just hung up the phone and I texted him I think I texted you after.
[00:45:52] Julie: Okay.
[00:45:53] Bethany: And listed. My entire thought process. So he could read it, right? And maybe have it resonate with him, [00:46:00] with the hope that he would come back and say, okay, I see that you were considering my thoughts and feelings.
[00:46:05] Julie: So you go in to try to get him to see, try to get him to see that I'm not a threat here.
[00:46:11] Julie: Okay.
[00:46:12] Bethany: So I gave him the out too, like again I reiterated if you feel strongly about this, I will call and cancel
[00:46:20] Julie: and Right. So you're going into let's solve the problem. Let's just solve the problem. But then there's still all this emotional stuff going on.
[00:46:27] Julie: Yeah. So if I just organize this cycle for you. Yep. And from an emotional perspective, it's okay, something happens. And Brian, you get the message that, here I am again, I'm on the outside. My needs really don't matter here. That's a message that you get a lot, and then that leaves you feeling really alone.
[00:46:45] Julie: Then I'm guessing since you hang up, that's frustrating for you and that doesn't feel good. So you hang up just to get yourself out of the situation. You're not in a place to keep talking. And then Beth and me, when he [00:47:00] hangs up, then you get blindsided and then you say to yourself, here we go again.
[00:47:05] Julie: Nothing I do is right. No matter how hard I'm spinning my wheels, getting the appointment going. I'm spinning my wheels trying to, keep deliver this in a way where he feels understood and seen. 'cause that's important to me. And then. He hangs up and the frustration rises in you. And so what you do is you try to address the problem by getting him to see the facts here.
[00:47:25] Julie: Look, this is where I'm coming from. You're trying to get him to see, trying to get him to see, but then Brian, that ends up leaving you feeling once again she's just in a selfish place. She's not seeing me. You're alone with it. And then you end up just going, throwing your hands up in the air and going, whatever.
[00:47:42] Julie: Just, let it go. Accept it. But that like still leaves you with tension in your body because you can't feel the close. And then all of a sudden there's this rupture in the air. In
[00:47:53] Julie: the
[00:47:54] Julie: air.
[00:47:54] Bethany: Yes,
[00:47:55] Julie: , Okay. Alright, so now what I wanna do is dive deeper into [00:48:00] that. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with you Bethany, and I wanna understand more about what's going on with you.
[00:48:09] Julie: We're gonna dive in a little bit more deep too. What happens in these moments when you get the message, you got it wrong again, you failed me once again. Just like what, what comes up in your body? Just as I maybe just say those words out loud. I failed again. I let 'em down again, no matter how hard I tried.
[00:48:34] Bethany: It's just exhaustion.
[00:48:36] Bethany: It's exhaustion. . Because it's like that in a lot of situations with us. . Yeah. I, I've never really, I've obviously never been married before, i've never been in really a relationship where that happens frequently. He's obviously the longest relationship I've ever had. I didn't. Grow up, like up feeling like I'm [00:49:00] failing. I didn't grow up like that either.
[00:49:02] Bethany: So it's all, while it's new, it's not new but it's not new because of him. Okay. And for no other reason I'm like I just, it's, and I told him the other day too, I, sometimes it's exhausting.
[00:49:14] Bethany: Because I don't know the right answer and I'm not look looking just for an answer to pacify him.
[00:49:21] Julie: So what's exhausting here, if I just can jump in, what's exhausting is how hard you're working to try to not keep getting it wrong for him.
[00:49:32] Julie: Okay. And so I wanna just really stick with these moments. When you get this message that you're getting it wrong what comes up in your body?
[00:49:43] Julie: Just. As you think about another message coming through that you got it wrong.
[00:49:55] Bethany: I don't internalize it so much that [00:50:00] I feel like a failure. Like I, I know that my intentions are true and good.
[00:50:08] Bethany: And my responses to whatever's going on are true and good. I feel that. . And
[00:50:14] Bethany: So you don't feel, go to the best word for me.
[00:50:18] Julie: Caution?
[00:50:19] Bethany: Exhaustion is like the only word that I can think of that comes to mind.
[00:50:24] Julie: Okay. And so in this moment when you just think about him hanging up on you. That moment, what happens in your body right here you're not saying to me, look, I feel like I'm a failure, but it's bad enough to just get these messages from your husband that you're a failure, that doesn't feel good in and of itself, whether you go to beating yourself up or not.
[00:50:47] Julie: And so you get that message when he hangs up. And so right at this moment is we just paint that picture what comes up in your body. Maybe it's exhaustion, maybe it's a tension. I just wanna know more about where it sits inside of [00:51:00] you.
[00:51:04] Bethany: I don't know. Failure's the word, but I feel like nothing I ever do is good enough for him.
[00:51:10] Julie: Yeah. And where does that sit in your body? Does your stomach get tense? Does, you're just thinking about Here we are again in this moment where nothing is good enough. What's happening in your body right now?
[00:51:23] Julie: I see tears. What are those tears saying?
[00:51:28] Bethany: It's just sad.
[00:51:29] Bethany: It's sad because I know I have a lot of good, and I know I do a lot of good, but I feel like it's never good enough.
[00:51:37] Julie: Yeah. So you, you get it about yourself, you have something good here to offer, but it's still really sad. It's a painful place that you go when you don't know that he can see that.
[00:51:48] Julie: And what would it be like if just the rest of your life, if you guys end up staying together if the rest of your life, you just keep getting these messages over and over again, you're not enough. [00:52:00] I couldn't do it. Why? What would be so painful about it? Is it a demoralized place? Is it is an invisible place?
[00:52:09] Julie: Is
[00:52:09] Bethany: it's invisible in some ways. I'm not looking necessarily for praise. But maybe just acknowledgement. This is somewhat of a Yeah. Peace. We had a, this is like a sidebar moment, but we had a text conversation the other day. He had a really hard time with both of the girls around, like lunchtime, nap time. The dog was crazy, blah, blah, blah. And he was venting to me about it. And I felt like I feel like sometimes I have to preface things so that he knows they're coming from a good place. And so I responded with, I know you don't want to hear I hear you. I know it can be trying.
[00:52:46] Bethany: And I said, I know you don't wanna hear this, but that was how my entire maternity leave was, right? With a newborn, with a eight or 9-year-old at the time with a puppy who was off the walls. [00:53:00] That was my entire maternity leave. .
[00:53:02] Bethany: Just
[00:53:03] Bethany: pure chaos that you experienced for that one hour.
[00:53:06] Bethany: . And he said, I get it now. And I was like, I just felt like a sigh of relief.
[00:53:13] Julie: Okay, good. Let's use that. Okay. I want you to stick with that relief in your body. Just as you say that, that relief, what do you notice inside
[00:53:23] Bethany: Clarity maybe?
[00:53:26] Julie: Yeah. So that's a
[00:53:26] Julie: word I
[00:53:27] Julie: wanna know more about. Do your muscles relax?
[00:53:30] Julie: Do you feel more, does the tension dissipate? Okay, so close your eyes.
[00:53:35] Bethany: I think I was in
[00:53:35] Bethany: my car and
[00:53:36] Bethany: I remember like . Smiling huh? I exhale.
[00:53:40] Julie: Hold with
[00:53:40] Julie: me right there.
[00:53:40] Julie: Hold with me right there. Yep. Close your eyes.
[00:53:43] Bethany: Yep.
[00:53:43] Julie: And
[00:53:43] Julie: let
[00:53:43] Julie: bring that sigh of relief to life.
[00:53:46] Bethany: Okay?
[00:53:46] Julie: And I want
[00:53:47] Julie: you
[00:53:47] Julie: to just tell me if you notice anything in your body, if you notice a softening
[00:53:51] Bethany: for sure.
[00:53:53] Julie: Okay. So hold with me there. Hold with me there. Okay. We're just, used to talking through these places and I [00:54:00] wanna go slow here 'cause I want you to get to know your body. So now. And I appreciate you're doing a great job. Thank you for going there for me. Now, I want you to do something new and I want you to imagine, bam, the invalidation, the invisible, the, your getting it wrong.
[00:54:24] Julie: Just imagine his face when you're getting these messages, or imagine that moment when he hangs up. What? Now what comes up? It's like I get.
[00:54:36] Bethany: The nervous pit in my stomach.
[00:54:40] Julie: Okay, Julie, here. So this is a pivotal breakthrough for Bethany for much of our session. She's been describing her experience from an intellectual place using words like exhaustion, but by inviting her to check in with her own body, a practice that we call somatic awareness, [00:55:00] we were able to access the raw emotional truth.
[00:55:03] Julie: Living in that what she says, what she calls nervous pit her. Her fear isn't just about failing an expectation. It's the terrifying belief that one more misstep will lead her to the complete marriage breakdown and the loss of her family. This fear is the engine behind her pattern of overexplaining and trying to fix the problem.
[00:55:28] Julie: It's a desperate attempt to prevent abandonment. And when Brian sees her text as defensive, he's missing that. They are her way of trying to quote unquote, stay safe with us. So let's take a moment for you to reflect. When you feel misunderstood or fear you're not good enough in the relationship, where does that feeling live in your body?
[00:55:52] Julie: Is it a tightness in your chest, a pit in your stomach? What does that sensation trying to tell you about what you are [00:56:00] most afraid of? And then the next question, when all that wells up, the unnamed fear and the feeling it creates in your body, what do you typically do to regulate it? Do you like Brian with his anxious attachment tend to just get reactive and start protesting.
[00:56:19] Julie: It happens so fast, you don't even have time to think it's very subconscious. Or do you tend to respond to your fear more like Bethany by again without even have time, having time to think by getting reasonable and defending and providing evidence or telling your partner why they're just simply seeing it all wrong again.
[00:56:39] Julie: It happens so fast. So subconsciously, guess what? Learning to sit with these feelings before you start making your moves is the opposite of self abandonment. And in the sitting with, you can learn better ways to do with so that all that fear can [00:57:00] get the healing it needs to not have to keep showing up over and over again in these triggers.
[00:57:06] Julie: So just stay there. I want you to just put all your focus on that nervous pit. This is the part where you used to just wanna run away from that nervous pit, and I just want you to stay with it.
[00:57:19] Bethany: Am I supposed to be saying
[00:57:20] Bethany: something?
[00:57:21] Bethany: I was, I didn't know if I was waiting for you to say something.
[00:57:23] Julie: No.
[00:57:23] Julie: You're waiting for me. I'm just, what I'm doing is lingering, letting, giving some space to the nervous pit. 'cause it has something really important to say. Usually the nervous pit is a fear. What do you, if that nervous pit could tell us what it's afraid of? What is it afraid of?
[00:57:41] Bethany: I think given
[00:57:41] Bethany: our history,
[00:57:43] Bethany: is this the straw that breaks the camel's back and he's just going to give up on us,
[00:57:52] Julie: is that when you start trying to explain, trying to let him see how you're good, you're safe.
[00:57:59] Julie: You're not [00:58:00] trying to hurt him, you're not trying to say your needs don't matter. Is that what that text is trying to do? Yeah. What if you didn't text? What if you didn't try to
[00:58:14] Bethany: then we truly probably would not have spoken for the rest of the day or several days. Or if I reached out, it would be one word. Answers or, very passive aggressive.
[00:58:24] Bethany: Okay.
[00:58:27] Bethany: Hurtful comments.
[00:58:28] Julie: So if this, if you didn't, if you didn't exhaust yourself trying to explain, then it would actually be worse.
[00:58:39] Bethany: I would think that we probably wouldn't communicate. I would likely be the first one to reach out in an attempt to repair or communicate.
[00:58:48] Bethany: Do you wanna talk later? Nah. Can we talk about this? Nah. Not interested.
[00:58:53] Julie: Okay. Do you feel alone?
[00:58:56] Bethany: I don't think I necessarily feel alone. Or [00:59:00] lonely or I would say there's moments where I feel out of the loop or that there's intentional isolation from him in these types of cycles. When we don't speak. So I don't, I don't know where he is working. I don't know when we come home. Like just intentionally leaving things out.
[00:59:23] Bethany: I think purposefully, because he doesn't wanna communicate with me in these types when we're in these cycles.
[00:59:28] Julie: How is it for you to feel left on the, out what is not good
[00:59:32] Bethany: punishment.
[00:59:33] Julie: Okay.
[00:59:34] Bethany: And I feel like I'm, that's how I feel. I feel like I'm being punished.
[00:59:37] Julie: What's so bad about being punished?
[00:59:39] Julie: What feels so bad about being punished, belittled, ignored?
[00:59:44] Bethany: Yeah. I would
[00:59:45] Bethany: say belittled.
[00:59:46] Bethany: Like I'm not worthy of. A simple answer to a question like, when will you be home from work? What do you want for dinner? Or
[00:59:56] Bethany: Am I taking one of our kids to [01:00:00] dance or, like I'm not worthy of an answer.
[01:00:03] Bethany: Small moments like this, are they really that bad that I'm not worthy of talking, not talking to me for three days or three hours? Is it really that bad?
[01:00:13] Julie: Is it a sad
[01:00:14] Julie: place
[01:00:14] Bethany: because I know I'm worthy of all of these things.
[01:00:17] Julie: Okay.
[01:00:18] Julie: You know you're worthy, but the pain is around him not seeing you as worthy.
[01:00:22] Julie: That's where the pain is. Okay. So we have this pain. The pain is not worthy, the disconnected place. And in this moment. Your body when the hangup comes, this is where your body goes to this scary place that has happened over and over again where you might have to walk around feeling unworthy in his eyes.
[01:00:45] Julie: So when he hangs up the phone, it's not just the pain of the disconnection that's bad enough, but then this other voice comes in and says, if I keep getting it wrong, he's just gonna give up on us.
[01:00:57] Bethany: Yeah.
[01:00:58] Julie: What's that gonna be like? [01:01:00] How's life gonna be if he, if that really happens, he really gives up on you, on us, not just you, your family.
[01:01:08] Bethany: We're
[01:01:08] Bethany: We've been living that way for the last,
[01:01:11] Julie: how is that been? Is that the tears right now? That's a bad, dark place. It's a lot of pain in that spot.
[01:01:19] Bethany: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:20] Julie: Okay. And so how have you learned to regulate this pain?
[01:01:25] Bethany: It's. Fear. I think then of,
[01:01:31] Bethany: of the complete marriage breakdown, family breakdown.
[01:01:36] Julie: So when you send, when you get this hangup and you send this text, the way that he sees it is she doesn't, she's not really listening. She's not really understanding where I'm coming from. That's all he sees. He doesn't see that this is your desperate attempt to avoid this painful place.[01:02:00]
[01:02:00] Julie: He doesn't see that. It's your attempt to try to save the relationship in a way because it feels so bad to lose it.
[01:02:07] Bethany: I don't think he sees it that way.
[01:02:09] Julie: So why don't you just tell him, because again, this session is all about sharing with each other. This new conversation right now is what we're doing, which is in.
[01:02:21] Julie: In those texts where, or in those places when I'm trying to convince you it's something, the lines are crossed. It's not coming across right the way that you're hoping it will, but what you're doing is you're trying so hard to stay safe. Just that's it. You're, that's your way of trying to not be scared.
[01:02:42] Julie: And it's your way of trying to somehow protect the relationship to stay safe in this relationship that really, truly does matter to you.
[01:02:51] Bethany: Yeah.
[01:02:52] Julie: And so I want you to share that with him, just in those words that, in that place where I'm trying to convince you, [01:03:00] that's my way of trying to stay safe with us
[01:03:05] Bethany: in that place when I'm trying to convince you, it's my way of trying to stay safe with us.
[01:03:16] Bethany: I think.
[01:03:19] Bethany: Sometimes.
[01:03:19] Julie: So I don't want
[01:03:20] Julie: you to add to that. Alright. I just want you to hold there. Okay. Which, we're gonna start this really simple.
[01:03:25] Bethany: Okay.
[01:03:26] Julie: How does it feel to, to put some words to that?
[01:03:33] Bethany: It
[01:03:33] Bethany: feels good to put
[01:03:34] Bethany: words to it.
[01:03:35] Julie: Okay. Does it feel true?
[01:03:37] Bethany: Yes.
[01:03:39] Julie: Yeah. Okay. So Brian, like what's coming up for you? How is this hitting your heart to just understand a little bit more about these moves that she goes into in the cycle?
[01:03:50] Brian: It feels good. Okay. It feels validating. Seems like true intentions instead of [01:04:00] having them masked in my perception in a certain way.
[01:04:06] Julie: Okay.
[01:04:09] Julie: Okay.
[01:04:09] Brian: So it feels good.
[01:04:14] Julie: When you say feel good, is it, does something come up in your body that feels better than maybe just when she's, doing all this through this text? We're not changing her experience around the text, we're just delivering it in a different way?
[01:04:35] Brian: Yeah. I feel like it's when you put it like that, it's speaking the language that I understand as opposed to saying it, in a different way.
[01:04:52] Julie: Okay. So your, does your body feel like a sense of relaxation right now? Maybe not [01:05:00] fully, but
[01:05:01] Brian: Yeah, it's a sigh of relief. Okay.
[01:05:03] Julie: So what I want you to do, just to get some words to this, is I want you to just.
[01:05:09] Julie: Tell Bethany, this is a co-regulating experience to me. I'm seeing your heart right now, and this is co-regulating for me.
[01:05:18] Brian: This is co-regulating for me and see a side of you that I don't always hear
[01:05:26] Julie: Bethany does. Is that something that you can take in that, you're used to getting these messages, you're getting it wrong, and right now you're getting a message that, yeah, you just really helped me out here.
[01:05:38] Bethany: Yeah it feels good. To hear him say that he understands it this way. Okay.
[01:05:43] Julie: Okay.
[01:05:44] Bethany: I guess if I would've had words before, maybe it would've been a different outcome.
[01:05:49] Julie: That's why we're here, right? To get those words. That's what we're doing here. And what I have found is that when we can get couples and partners going to these vulnerable places in these [01:06:00] sessions, that the symptoms really do start to decrease outside of here.
[01:06:05] Julie: All right. That brings us to the end of our first episode with Bethany and Brian. Today we saw the negative cycle from both sides, so we saw how these protective moves, though well-intentioned, often end up deepening their disconnection rather than bridging the gap. For Brian, his fight for connection often comes out as anger and accusations.
[01:06:29] Julie: For Bethany, her drive to prevent further distance often looks like defensiveness or overexplaining. And we learned she has some anger that she also doesn't know how to express so well. Both of them are trying to stay safe and connected, but their current strategies are keeping them stuck. Both of them get stuck first, abandoning their own painful emotions by just ignoring them and going straight into their protective moves.
[01:06:57] Julie: And then from there they abandon each other's [01:07:00] emotions. Now, you may remember last season when I often asked Melissa and Drew to just put some words to the feelings they were expressing in the session to get to the root of their emotions and name them clearly. And this session, I wanna invite you, the listener, into that same process as we introduce a new segment called, just to put some words to this.
[01:07:24] Julie: So what came up for you today as you listened to episode one, please send us your thoughts or voice notes to support@thesecurerelationship.com and go ahead and answer the following props. How do you want to feel in conflict with your partner? Do you wanna know that you're being heard, understood, and connected?
[01:07:46] Julie: What happens when you don't know these things? When you don't know you're being heard or understood or connected? What emotions come up if these needs aren't being met? So think about the emotions [01:08:00] beneath your own protective responses. We'll play and read a few of these responses during next week's episode.
[01:08:09] Julie: Alright, thank you for tuning into the Secure Love Podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, please rate us five stars, subscribe and review on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere you get your podcast. We love getting the feedback. Season two has officially launched and we're so excited for you to join us on this journey.
[01:08:32] Julie: So bye everyone, and we'll be back next week.
