Session 16: "Full Breathable Lungs": The Power of Vulnerability
In this episode
Riding a wave of progress with zero negative cycles, Bethany and Brian confront the perfectionism driving Brian's impossibly high standards. A small conflict about mulch exposes his childhood history of feeling 'less than' his peers. Julie challenges Brian's belief—learned from a stoic grandfather and volatile mother—that vulnerability is weakness. When he risks sharing his fear, Bethany connects instead of rejecting him, and Brian describes the somatic shift as feeling liberated, with 'full breathable lungs.'
Key takeaways
- Perfectionism is often a shield against an old feeling of being 'less than.'
- Small conflicts—even one about mulch—can reveal deep attachment wounds.
- Beliefs about vulnerability are frequently inherited from caregivers.
- Sharing a fear as a confession, not a complaint, invites connection rather than rejection.
- Emotional risk can produce a real somatic release—'full breathable lungs.'
Keep going deeper
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Session 16: "Full Breathable Lungs": The Power of Vulnerability
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a couple's therapist and author of the book Secure Love. So we're continuing to ride a wave of progress with Bethany and Brian today. They'll report that there have been no negative cycles since our last session, which is amazing and a very good sign that things are really starting to soften and feel a lot more stable for them.
They're building safety around doing new things. They're starting to trust, hey, these new things might actually get us further than the old ways. So today you're going to hear about a moment where Bethany really came through in the clutch for Brian's oldest daughter, which really helped him manage this, you know, chaotic situation with the school performance.
And his ex-wife was sick, and it's really a beautiful bounce back from last week's session where Brian. Felt that his daughter had [00:01:00] been kind of dropped by Bethany. So after we talk about that, we'll turn our attention to some deeper wounds that are still lurking beneath the surface here. And specifically we'll explore Brian's just intense perfectionism and that conversation will start with something that might seem small on the surface, which is a story about mulch in the yard.
Um, but what seems so small is going to open a door into Brian's childhood and we'll hear him share about how when he was growing up, he had less money and fewer nice things than the other kids in his neighborhood. And that ongoing experience of just feeling less than drove him to hold himself and Bethany to unrealistic standards, um, around.
His nervous system said, I never wanna feel like that again. And I like to say that we fear what our bodies have experienced in. [00:02:00] People who spend a lot of time growing up feeling less than and don't have a supportive family to balance that out, will naturally want to spend a lot of energy in adulthood trying to offset those feelings to find ways to feel enough or sometimes even more than, and that drive can be motivating, which isn't bad in itself, but it doesn't work when a drive for success ends up getting in the way of real happiness and real healthy relationships.
So the core of this session is about vulnerability. Brian admits that showing the softer side feels like a weakness to him, which is a lesson that he learned from his very stoic grandfather. Um, and his, what he will describe as emotional train wreck of a mother. But when he risks sharing this, something really incredible happens.
It taps directly into Bethany's caregiving system, [00:03:00] her empathy system. Instead of having this material just push her further away. So by the end of this session, Brian will describe feeling liberated like he finally has in his word, full breathable lungs. But before we get into Brian's breakthrough, we have a couple of submissions from you, the listeners, and today we're going to start with an email from Steph.
So Steph says, Hey, Julie. I can so relate to Bethany and her need to practice healthy assertion. I had no idea this issue was also mine until this season with Brian and Bethany. So many light bulb moments along the way. It's crazy how blind we can be to our own issues unless we have a safe person to walk us through things.
So thanks for being that person, indirectly. Anyway, my question is how do I begin putting assertion into practice when just the thought of it turns on an uh, alarm inside of my body? The feeling is almost [00:04:00] unbearable, like an override on my mouth. My brain knows what knows and wants, but my body says, stop immediately.
The slightest tent that my requests are not being received makes me back down and retreat. I hate it. Help. Thanks again, Steph. Okay, Steph. Um, first of all, thank you for the feedback. I'm just. Thrilled and honored to hear that this work is helping you grow. Um, so to answer your question, the first thing is, is really getting in touch with your own personal fears around assertion.
You know, asking yourself questions like, where did these fears originate? Where did you learn to be so afraid of assertion? And. The more important question is what do your fears need to, to dissipate? You know, what are you needing to know? What kind of reassurances are you needing? And the first step of this is a self parenting process where you become your own inner parent and [00:05:00] you're able to reassure these parts of you that are so scared of the consequences of assertion and, and be able to say, you know, you deserve to, you deserve to assert yourself.
And asserting yourself might be hard in the moment, but it actually does lead ultimately to better things because the only alternative to asserting yourself is. Continuing to be triggered and have these bad feelings that are gonna get acted out in another way. Um, and then, and then we want you to be able to go to your partner and seek help from your partner around this.
And so, you know, outside of, of triggered moments when you and your partner are both regulated and things feel safe, this is a time to tell them, you know, um,
I, I need some reassurance here that. This part of me that sometimes needs to assert my needs and feelings. You, you're okay with that? Um, that part's not just gonna trigger you and, you know, take you to a place where we start to go into those [00:06:00] competing needs and, and let's work together here.
And wouldn't it be nice if we both can make space for our really normal relationship needs? And then say, you know, the value in this is that if we can get this right, we won't need to go into those negative cycles all the time because the, the important things aren't getting talked about. They're instead getting acted out and this, you know, this kind of conversation is ongoing.
It's, it's part of a growth process. These conversations are never one and done. You know, sometimes we have them and there are some triggers around them and we don't do so well, but we both, you know, go away from that and kind of process it and think about it. And it does. You know, eventually lead to continued levels of growth.
So thank you, Stephanie. I really appreciate your comment. And now we'll go to Annette. So Annette says, hi Julie. I'm an avid follower of your book podcasts and have taken some of your courses about attachment theory, as it has [00:07:00] been a real struggle all of my life. I've recently come to understand and learn that I am on the spectrum for autism and as a female have been masking it all my life to find some connection and belonging.
However, with menopause and the drop of estro estrogen, it has become more difficult to mask and participate in a more normal social life. So my question is, how does EFT and attachment theory intersect with neurodivergent people? Will they still benefit from emotionally focused therapy or will they have a harder time accessing somatic experiencing and hence make it more difficult to affect any real lasting change?
I much appreciate all you do and the insights you share. Sincerely, Annette. So thank you so much, Annette. This is a, a great question. Um, so to emotionally connect, you know, with others, we do need to be able to have some contact and connection to our own emotions. Um, so my [00:08:00] job is to help people, you know, first self connect and then share that connection with their partner.
And through the self connection also be able to better see the emotional. Parts of their partner. Um, but some people will have extenuating circumstances and might need more specific help with that connection to self part. So, um, you know, and one example is, is what you're describing, which is some
neurodivergence that can come in and make that more difficult, not impossible, but more difficult.
Um, and then sometimes people are in the opposite part of the spectrum where connecting to their emotions becomes so flooding that it's not actually safe for them to be able to do that. So in both of these cases, we need to just find some more specific resources, someone who specializes. Um, so for you, that would be someone who, you know, they specialize in helping people with
Neurodivergence.
Um. Connect to their own emotional [00:09:00] experience, um, and those people are out there. And then for, you know, just to put this out there too, on the other extreme, someone who gets more flooded, you know, they need probably some, some help, some trauma work to help them be able to. You know, titrate their emotions and, and learn how to tolerate them in their body, which would be someone who is specializes in either trauma or somatic therapy.
On the note of somatic therapy, I also do recommend that you maybe seek that out because again, these somatic therapists, they're trained to help people connect with their emotions no matter what their specific blocks are. Um, and then some EFT therapists who are particularly skillful in this part of the work can, can maybe get you there too, just by using some of the same techniques that we use with people who might be neurotypical, but have other significant blocks to accessing themselves.
Um, but ultimately, once you're able to, you know, be better at accessing your [00:10:00] own emotions and you don't have to be perfect at it, you know, any growth is growth. Um, but ultimately when you are feeling more comfortable with that, the EF. Therapist, we'll do the same work with you that we do with
everyone, which is, you know, just helping you organize these feelings into your communication cycles with your partners.
So I, I just commend your openness to do this work, um, even though you know you have some, some blocks and you're willing to, you know, really put the effort into trying to work through those. That's really beautiful. So just keep up the good work. All right, so lastly, we're going to listen to a voice note from Andrea who can relate quite a bit to Bethany and Brian's negative cycle.
Andrea: Hi Julie. Thank you so much for your work. It has really made a huge difference for me personally and in my relationship. Um, my partner and I have been together for about three years. The first year was, um, pretty tricky, um, because I had a lot of trauma-based behaviors and I didn't [00:11:00] really
validate him or listen to him, and it was kind of just death of a thousand paper cuts.
Um, basically anytime he would try to bring something up, I'd be like, oh my gosh, why am I in trouble again? And like, why are you making such a big deal about this? So basically anytime we get into an issue and I'm like, please don't get so angry, like, please don't speak to me disrespectfully. Like, I would never talk to a loved one that way.
Please don't do that to me. He'll basically say, well, I'm only like this because you made me like this. So in the spring. We almost split up. We went to couples counseling, which was not very helpful. What was helpful was listening to your podcasts and reading your content. And when I saw the part about, uh, protest behaviors, I was like, oh, he's not a jerk.
He's in a lot of pain and he needs someone to be on his side. So I totally switched gears and I have completely been on his side. I've been his ally. I've been learning lots about him, and I feel like I totally get him. And so that's pretty successful. And a lot of [00:12:00] what's led to that is I kind of stepped into my own badass a few months ago realizing that I am allowed to bring things up too, and I can express my hurt and pain.
And he actually shockingly listened. Acknowledges his part in it. Um, but basically what happens is we kind of fight about the fight and then he'll make some type of a comment, kind of similar to what Brian does about, like, you don't care. You never listen, you were just trying to push your own agenda, or whatever it is.
It's something about he's assuming my intention and I'm not okay with that. So I guess what I'm asking is what do I do from here? Do I pause and say, tell me more about this. Do I let it go and then bring it up another time? I have done that, and when I bring it up another time, it's still very much, you know, I'm behaving like this because of what you did to me.
And if you didn't do that to me, then I wouldn't be behaving this way. And I'm thinking at the same time though, [00:13:00] I deserve to not be interrupted and spoken over and spoken to disrespectfully, so it's not working for me. Overall, it's a lot more peaceful than it was last year, but I feel like we're still kind of stuck on fighting about the fighting.
So what do you think we should do from here? Thank you.
Julie: Okay. So Andrea, you know there's a a lot of layers to, to this question, and I'm gonna start with this. It sounds like your partner has some unhealed wounds around the past in your relationship where. He wasn't being heard and bringing things up to you, you know, led you to a place that scared you and threatened you, which you've been able to, um, you know, resolve some of that, but in a way that it led you to being dysregulated and not able to hold him.
So there could be some old wounds around that because he keeps bringing it up over and over. Um, saying things like, you never listen. So, you know, you might need to have a conversation with him that's like, Hey, you [00:14:00] know, this keep come, keeps coming up. Maybe you, you need some more healing around this.
Maybe we need to have more conversations where I just really lean in and try to understand how you were impacted all those years. Um, when, and give you some space to share the impact all those years when you. Got the message that things weren't really safe for you. Another piece of this is he could have some personal issues around this and personal un healed wounds.
And I would, I would really be curious, like when in his life, um, did he feel like someone just kind of intentionally wanted to hurt him? Um, and, you know, what, what was that like for him that he needed to develop a hyperawareness around this and that Hyperawareness might be showing up in your relationship where he just kind of has these old wounds and, and assumes that maybe that's what you are doing, um, to him.
So I would, you know, just be curious about that and [00:15:00] say, look, you know, I understand there have been plenty of times in our relationship where, um, you know, it, it understandably came across as I just wanted to ignore you and hurt you. Um, but, but I also wonder, you know, were there other times in life where you got these messages that must have been really hard and just.
The um. Conversation in that way. Um, when he's really triggered and he's going into that place, it's probably not a good time to try to come in with your, your perspective and say, you know, that's not really what's happening. I would, I would pause that and, you know, maybe just try to lean in and, and say, Hey, I know this is one of those times where these fears come and find you and I'm right here.
Um, and then, you know, later. Come in and say, you know, listen, I, I am recognizing that I really wanna be there for you and I really wanna hear you, but sometimes I'm, I'm a little concerned that I'm not able to show up with what I'm
needing. [00:16:00] And can we just talk about that? And I wouldn't go into necessarily the, what you're needing at that moment.
I would just open the conversation about, you know, what are some blocks that come up for you when I kind of start to show up with my needs? Let's just talk about that and get him, you know, try, hopefully kind of voicing some of his fears around that. And it, it sounds like things are balancing out, like, it sounds like at first, you know, you were kind of the fire that needed to be put out and now you know that.
And, and he was kind of, um, balancing out your fire by getting small maybe. And now that you are feeling more balanced, um, it's making more space for his stuff to come up and it might take some time, you know, for more safety to develop around him and him to work through some of his big feelings, um, as things start to balance out between the two of you.
So good luck. I know this is a lot, but it does sound like you are on the right track and you guys are, are growing together and things [00:17:00] have really improved. So, um, you know, again, keep up the good work. Alright, well thank you everyone for sending in your comments and voice notes. Now it's time to get into session 16 with Bethany and Brian.
All right, let's go ahead and jump in. How are you guys doing? Good. Good. Okay. Well, you know, my next question is gonna be what's good
Bethany: I. I don't think we've had any negative cycles. .
Brian: Yeah. ,
Julie: That's
good. Good news. Something to be proud of.
Brian: Friday. Um, my daughter was in musical and we were leading up to opening night and her mother got really, got the stomach bug and had to go to the er. And I
just got slammed with this news like 45 minutes before she was supposed to get off the bus [00:18:00] and I had to get shoe laces and get makeup and all this other stuff.
And I just like, felt super overwhelmed because I had to get our other, you know, my, the little girl and I called Bethany and she came and got shoe laces and got makeup and did her makeup and mm-hmm. You know, we were able to sort of. Tag team, that disaster zone. 'cause I just had too many tasks and too short of a time to accomplish.
Julie: Well what did, what message did you get from the fact that, you know, she really showed up for you?
Brian: You know, that, that she was there to support me. So it hasn't been like that in a, in a while. So it was, it was good that we were able to tag team some dilemmas and, you know, get through it quickly. [00:19:00]
Julie: Is there anything, Bethany, that kind of was new about that for you? Or that helped you show up in that way? I'm just,
Bethany: no, I don't, I don't think so. 'cause I think sometimes in times of imminent crisis, if you wanna a crisis, we've been able to do things like that day that that thing fell on your head and you split your head open. Mm-hmm. I came to help you that day. Um, he came to help me when I wrecked my car.
So it was just like, he wasn't even necessarily asking for help. He never said, can you help me? He was like, I have this amount of time. I don't know how I'm gonna do this, do that, do that. Like, I don't even know where to go get shoe laces. And I was like, in 10 seconds already on the, you know, the Walmart app, out which aisle, you know, I could find black shoe laces.
And I was like, listen, I don't have any other meetings. I'll just leave now. It was like 3 55. I'll just leave now. I'll go get the shoe laces, I'll get the makeup. I was like, ask her what she needs for her makeup. And I, 'cause [00:20:00] he wouldn
wouldn't have known. Right. So it was like, does she need this? Does she need that?
So I just went to Walmart and bought all of it. And just brought it here and took care of it.
Julie: All right. Well I am just kind of trying to understand. I'm so glad that you had that experience. Um, I guess I'm just trying to understand a little bit about. Why this went so well when you haven't had any of this, you know, we haven't been having this happen.
It sounds like maybe there was just like a baseline more positive energy between the two of you and somehow that just manifested as this just kind of working smoothly.
Bethany: Yeah, I think so. I think even coming into here, I've been feeling like before I've come here, it hasn't felt like doom and gloom and I haven't had a pit in my stomach because we've been in a positive space for so many days.
So that's felt good. Um, and I could hear how he was trying to navigate all of [00:21:00] these things, and I get it. Like I, I know what it's like to try to run around like crazy with a little toddler and then all the places that you have to be. Um, so I, I, I get it. And he wasn't saying like, I need you to do this.
Right. And he also wasn't saying, I want you to do, to do this. It was just like. How, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. And, and he was like, somewhat like, paralyzed and like, I have all of these things to do, but I don't know how I'm gonna do them. So I just removed it from his plate.
Julie: Yeah. So he's in distress and you're good at that.
That's your, you're good at crisis mode, right? .
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And so you were able to just kind of come through with that?
Bethany: Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the outcome would've been been if I was like, stuck at work where I had, you know, another meeting. I don't know if it would've gone the same. So I feel like all the stars kind of aligned in that way where I was able to leave.
Um, but yeah, it went pretty smoothly.
Julie: All right. Well, I'm really glad to hear that and I'm [00:22:00] really glad that you guys, you're not feeling such a sense of doom and gloom coming into this space. That's great. That's movement. Um, you're not going, I mean, I think it's probably been a while since you guys have interacted with each other and not gone into negative cycles.
So again, that's commendable. It's something to be proud of. Um, and so I guess what we can do then is just since we don't have anything imminent, maybe we
can just work on some of these wounds that keep popping back up over and over in the relationship. And so, Brian, I I wanna check in over on your side.
You know, we have talked about the, you know, some of the stuff for you, the financial stuff. Does that feel better for you, or do you have some more to say about that?
Brian: Um, it's, it's not really, you know, been in our, our mix at this point since we're still separated. So I don't know what that looks like. You know, if we were to move.. ,
Julie: Lemme ask you like a hypothetical, if it does come up in the future, how do you think it might come up?
[00:23:00] Anything that might be kind of unhealed around this, what might trigger it? Because that's what these wounds do, right? They just kind of lurk around in there and then they get tapped by these even small events in life that if you didn't have the wound, it wouldn't be a big deal. You'd just kinda, you know, go forward.
But when these wounds are there, these little things can really feel like very big things. 'cause they're touching something very big.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I, I can sort of see how, you know, the, the finance piece has like, sort of tied into a lot of these traumas that we've had. Like, um, you know, e even as, you know, the, the topic of conversation of the Disney World and my uncle and that type of stuff, you know, it just.
And just realizing that these reoccurring themes, like of my feelings, how, how [00:24:00] they sort of touch the same sort of baseline. I, I guess I really wasn't aware of that until probably you said it out loud to me a few times. Um, you know, just sort of like left abandoned, you know, like me to pick up the pieces, you know, and it, it just seems like a recurring theme.
So like, you know, the finance piece of it, it's, I mean, it's, it's the money part of it, but it's sort of just being left to my own devices to figure it out. Is, is more of the hurt of it.
Julie: Yeah. So a lot of times growing up, you were actually left to your own devices.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: That's a place that you know well and you did actually experience an [00:25:00] abandonment, you know, it's still with you to this day that you, you did feel like kind of the apple of your uncle's eye and then all of a sudden you get dropped.
And I, I'm curious, like when you were a kid and you don't have any way to make sense of this, like how did you make sense of it? Most kids aren't gonna go, well, they had another child and they, you know, that's kind of natural or whatever for them to, this isn't about me, this is more about them. Or, most kids don't do that.
Most kids are gonna figure out a way to make sense of it as like, what's wrong with me that I was so easy to move away from. Did I do, did you think maybe I did something wrong? Maybe I wasn't good enough. Maybe.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I've probably all of those things, you know, I've, I've discovered some of them in little bit of my self work that, um, Bethany and I, and I, over maybe around the holidays were [00:26:00] watching this, um, documentary on Netflix.
Like, just a lot of the stuff that he was saying was resonating with me. Um, like, there's like a lot of like self-loathing around that. And like, I sort of tied this into like, some of Bethany's behaviors because it was so, um, like evident to me. And like that I could feel those feelings. Maybe I couldn't put them into words, but, you know, I think there, there's, there came this like, uh, period of time where like.
Whether I realized it or not. There there's self-loathing where it's like things have to be perfect. Um, things have to look a certain way, have to be presented a certain way. And if it's not like to my standard, like it's just, it's not good enough and it's [00:27:00] not like,
Julie: can you gimme an
example of the last time this happened?
Brian: I dunno. It's, it's everything. It's, it's how I approach my work. It's how I approach like, the presentation of our home. Like if the mulch, uh, like it rains too much and like the mulch looks gray instead of like truly brown, it's like, well, I gotta go get more mulch. 'cause it's, I want it to look this way. I want my lawn to look this way.
Julie: Okay, so let's kind of, let's work with that because that's, there's probably a lot there that shows up in all these other areas. And so I just wanna know like, what's so bad about the mulch being gray. There's something really important about that for you. You have this cognitive awareness that, you know, this is attached to perfection and how you're viewed.
And there's strength in that too. I don't wanna take that away from you. I mean, it's, [00:28:00] there's a lot of strength in trying to do well in the world and present, put our best foot forward. But you're saying to me, look, if the mulch is gray, let me just ask you this, I'll, lemme switch gears here. The mulch is gray, right?
You see the gray mulch? What comes up? What does that do to you?
Brian: It's, it's just not good enough. You know, it's, it's supposed like I bought brown or I bought black and it's supposed to be black. It's not supposed to be gray. And it's like I was playing Play-Doh with our daughter the other day, and. There were like new jars of it and she just, she just got in it and started mixing blue and green and white.
And I was like, uh, like, I like wanted to vomit. Like, because it's, it just, it's not supposed to be that way. And like,
Julie: but when you say that, hold on. When you say I wanted to vomit, what comes up in your [00:29:00] body?
Is it like a fear? Does it feel like a fear feeling like,
Brian: no, I guess I feel anxious about it, you know?
Julie: I want you to close your eyes and I wanna see if you can find some of that anxious. You're just used to overriding that, and I don't know what you did in that situation, but I wanna see if we can kind of tap into some of that anxious and understand a little bit more about it so we can get to know more about what it's needing.
So you don't have to keep band-aiding it with perfectionism that, you know, on a level that you, it's probably exhausting for you.
Brian: It's, you know, there's a lot of racing thoughts around a lot of things. Uh, like at the start of this, I didn't think that I was as anxious as I am, but
[00:30:00] I'm realizing that, you know, it, it taps into like just a, a lot of, a lot of things.
Like
Julie: how could you have realized it if nobody ever helped you talk about that feeling and put some words to it and understand a little bit more. Right? Nobody helped you with that. So let's just kind of go there right now. I want you to just close your eyes and see if you can imagine this moment where you see the mulch is gray, or you see that the Play-Doh has all been mixed together.
It sounds like such a small thing. But it represents something really important to you, and I don't wanna ignore that.
Brian: Yeah. I guess it's like
my drive to do whatever task or succeed is just always like having a feeling of like, you're, you know, you're, you're scared, but, but it's like less than, you know, like, it, maybe it started with my [00:31:00] uncle. It's just I'm not good enough.
Julie: And so if you don't, if you don't succeed, right.
Just if we're, we're gonna really slow this down. If you don't succeed, you make sense of it as, I'm actually less than
Brian: in a sense. Like, you know, I think I remember like being a kid, like just, um, I don't know if it was mad, but just upset that I was born into what I was born into. So, like, we lived in a, the same town I live in now, but it's, it's a little uppity.
And I just remember like, just growing up, like not having the financial means to do some of the things that, you know, my peers did. So, like you, you know, you get that drive, I think from that.
Julie: And so let, let's just kind of say, Hey, you know, if [00:32:00] you can't keep up with this or, you know, going back to the mulch, if like someone sees the gray mulch, what, what's gonna happen for you?
How's that gonna feel for you? Or what are they gonna think?
Brian: See, the, this is the, the tough part that I've had a problem with is that. I don't necessarily care about other people's feelings towards me, it's just that I'm tough on myself. And it's not that I'm, it's not that I really hate myself, and it's not that I'm trying to benchmark myself to be as good or better than a certain person or a certain anything.
It's just, I'm just tough on myself. [00:33:00]
Julie: So you're saying to me, look it, it really isn't so much about what other people think. It's kind of about how I view myself here and I'm tough on myself. So can we talk about, just kind of, can we focus here on just that part that's tough on yourself? I wanna know, again, if we can just really kind of slow down the mulch.
What do you say to yourself about that mulch? Like what happens if you don't get new mulch?
Are you gonna think, you know, that's ugly? Are you gonna think the yard looks bad?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And what's so bad about that? What, for your nervous system? 'cause something happens, I still haven't gotten really clear about what goes on in your nervous system. But you see the mulch, you see it's gray, [00:34:00] bam, something goes off in your body, it doesn't feel comfortable.
It takes you to an uncomfortable place. And then, you know, the meaning is, is the yard looks bad. It's not the gray mulch, it's the yard looks bad. And I, I need to know a little bit more about what that brings up for you emotionally.
Is it an unsafe feeling?
Brian: A little bit. It's hard to put words to it. It's, I, I guess it's a little bit of shame, you know, that like I don't have the energy or I don't have the, the will to make it better.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: Or like, laziness, I guess.
Julie: And when you say make it better, is that, when, what, what is [00:35:00] making it better? Like getting the new mulch and then making it look Okay. Making it look up to your standard.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. So something about it looking okay and safe for you. Right. If, if it's, if it looks okay, then you get to go, oh, my yard looks good.
My la my yard looks like I want it to look. I'm pres. I'm putting my best foot forward here.
Brian: Yeah. It's, it's a sense of being proud,
Julie: When have you not felt proud in your life back when you were a kid and you couldn't keep up with what the other kids were being able to do?
Brian: Yeah, but I knew that it wasn't my fault, you know, I, I wasn't gonna go work a 40 hour work week at seven years old.
Julie: Okay. So there's a part of you that was more confident and could make sense of it as, this isn't my fault. Right. But can we [00:36:00] agree that there's also this part of you that. I didn't feel so good about it.
That was having struggled a bit, seeing all the other kids do stuff. I'm assuming it's, it was that part. Is there, 'cause you just talked about it.
Brian: Yeah. It's, it's, it's a feeling of, of less than I I think.
Julie: So what comes up, just as you say that, yes. I did feel that feeling and growing up I did feel less than some of the time and sometimes that I still go there.
Brian: Yeah, I do.
Julie: Mm-hmm. What comes up?
Just putting words to that.
Brian: There's, you know, there's hurt and pain behind it
Julie: is the, is the hurt and pain like a, like a rejected feeling? Uh, if I'm less than, then that's gonna lead to rejection and abandonment or [00:37:00] I can't possibly be respected. I don't know. You tell me less than is bad, but what's bad about it?
Brian: I, I don't, I guess it would be like love and acceptance maybe. Julie: Yeah. Okay.
So this part of you that we're just talking to this part, this part of you says, if I can't kind of keep up with the other kids, what, and all this stuff, and again, it's just a part doesn't define you, then that takes me to, I'm less than, and if I'm less than, how could I ever be accepted or really lovable?
And then that's, that's the painful place, right? Because no human thrives in that place where we have to question our own acceptability.
And so your whole life. You've tried to avoid [00:38:00] that place by just kind of getting, getting it going, look, making sure everything's perfect, measuring up. And again, this is just a part of you. It doesn't define you.
You've got these other competent parts that, you know, this is just human to wanna do well. But how often, like who gets to see this part of you that sometimes goes to this dark place of less than who sees, who sees that? Do you talk about that much?
Brian: No, I don't think so.
Julie: So I want, I wanna see if, you know, what do you think it'd be like to let Bethany in on some of this? That sometimes underneath all of this, there is this part of you that. Struggles with less than. Okay. Julie here. So I wanna pause here because this is a really important reframe. It's, you know, it can be so easy to look at a partner when they're being critical or [00:39:00] demanding.
Um, you know, someone who is, is just getting upset over gray mulch and just see them as controlling. You know, we all have these areas in life where somethings, you know, can seem really small, but carry some big importance to us. And what we're uncovering is that Brian's perfectionism is actually a shield and it's a defense mechanism that he built as a child to protect himself from this deep pain of feeling less than his peers.
And somehow that mulch represents this to him. And you know, in his mind, if everything is perfect, then he's just safe from judgment. If everything is perfect, he gets to feel worthy. This is his way of offsetting. The painful feelings of shame and understanding this, you know, it doesn't excuse the behavior.
Um, I just wanna keep reiterating that because, you know, none of this work is, is excusing behavior. We're trying [00:40:00] to make sense of the behavior in the service, of finding better ways to get these needs met, so we have healthier
behaviors to replace them. Um, and so again, it's not understanding, it isn't excusing the behavior, but it does change the conversation from Why are you so controlling to, I do see that you're trying to feel safe here.
Brian: Am I saying that to you?
Julie: Well, yeah, I mean, we can, you can either say it or you can tell me what you think it'd be like to share that with her. Either way you think that might help her see, see you a little more.
Nobody deserves to be alone with this place. We all deserve help in this place that we all can go to, right? Yeah. We all can go there.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think a lot of, a lot of this [00:41:00] stuff goes back to feeling less than in my efforts to rectify that, I guess.
Julie: So what's it like to put words to this part that doesn't really get a lot of help and words. You're used to Just trying to make it go away by performing at a certain level. We're doing something new, we're showing up for that part.
Would you want your daughters to be able to talk about this painful place in them to, to get some help with it?
Brian: Yeah. If they felt that way,
Julie: They may or may not. We don't know, but we, we do know that there's value in helping people put some words to these places that [00:42:00] they've had your whole life.
You've had to just learn how to avoid going there.
Brian: I think it's hard to be vulnerable about it exposes you to like a, like, almost like a, like you have a weakness, you know? .
Julie: Okay. So we'll, we'll go there. I wanted, that's gonna be my next conversation, but, you know, what is the good part here of, of putting some words to this and letting her in on it?
Is there anything positive about that for you?
Brian: You know, maybe that you could understand it better? Um, .
Julie: Right, because what she sees is what in the cycle, when that part of you kind of starts to drive the car. I, I'm guessing, just from what I know about you guys, that then she sees it as like having to live up to some standard she doesn't know, or that you're just being hard on her or just like you're kind of randomly
hard on her or whatever.[00:43:00]
Brian: Do you think I'm hard on you ?
Bethany: Sometimes.
Julie: Yeah. So what do you think is more helpful to her? Not just for, you know, put the way that this is gonna be helpful to you ultimately on the side, but what do you think might be helpful for her and help her see you and understand you a little bit more to just think that you're just kind of randomly picking on her, or that there's, this goes to a deep, painful place for you.
This is a burden place for you.
Brian: Yeah, it is.
Julie: So I appreciate your bravery. I'm gonna shift over here like Bethany, does this help you understand a little bit more and
Bethany: Yeah. It, it does. I mean, I've known for so long his, his drive and, and the why behind his drive in terms of wanting things a certain way, but not, not knowing the painful place [00:44:00] and not knowing the place of perhaps not being accepted or not feeling lovable.
And I don't ever want him to not feel lovable or less than because he is, he's never been less than really, and I, I don't ever want him to think that he, he's not lovable for that place.
Julie: So your, your caretaking empathy place is being activated right now when you get to see more about him.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: He needs that.
Right. But he's helping you go there because he is sharing with you what is that part of him, the tender part that needs some help and that brings it up in you and when you guys are in this cycle that the opposite happens when he's just trying to manage and regulate this part by being good enough, good enough.
Sometimes that, and I, and I'm sure there are things that you love about that in him too, right? Right. There's a strengths, but Sure. And so can you just share that with him that, you know, when I [00:45:00] see this part of you it does, it does make me wanna come in and help you and the way that I know you need
Bethany: Yeah.
When you share that part of you, it makes me wanna come in and help you when it, when it's not shared, I feel like I'm, I'm the enemy and I'm on the, I'm just like on the, on the receiving end of, I don't even know what, so when you share the vulnerable place like that. I wanna help you and I don't want you to feel that way less than or abandoned
or not lovable.
Julie: And I, and I wanna know one more thing. Does it make sense to you that this is the way that he's been trying to regulate this painful place that he goes, that we all go sometimes. Does it make sense to you?
Bethany: It does make sense and I think in some way I've sort of known it, but yeah, it hasn't always outweighed like what's felt to be the punching bag at times.
Julie: Yeah. So just share that with him that, hey, it does make sense to [00:46:00] me. You come by this, honestly. And it does make sense to me. Thank you for sharing that. Is there, is there something maybe a little bit relatable to,
Bethany: from my perspective?
Julie: Mm-hmm. Um.
I mean, I know I've felt that before, like I've felt like, yeah, I kind have to scramble around and make sure that, you know, I don't go to the less than place or whatever. To me, it seems like just kind of a human place that a lot of people struggle with.
Bethany: Yeah, I think, I mean, bet between the two of us personality wise, there's a lot of similarities.
He is far more driven than I pro I probably am, but I think like the, the feeling like the, the less than or, or the need for perfection, um, and [00:47:00] whatever aspect or, or certain standards of things, um, we're, we're very relatable there.
Julie: Right. So you, you have some of that experience of your own, you know, again, we all kind of can go there for, to varying degrees, but that.
Is what love is, right? Is when you can feel some of what our person is feeling. And so I just want you to share that too. That I have. I know that place too. You're not alone in there.
Bethany: Yeah, I know that place too. We're not alone. And it's, it's funny to hear it, I guess, come out like this because we were both, or have both gone through the same thing.
We just haven't been able to articulate it appropriately or safely or have the words to put behind it.
Julie: All right, well let's, let's go back in Brian, so you said something so, so important to [00:48:00] me. You said it is really hard to be vulnerable because there's this part of you that I know is you're in this, you're doing a great job and you are being vulnerable and brave. But then there's this other part of you that understandably comes in and says, well, this is scary.
There's, and you said it's like a weakness. Can you tell me more about that? Brian: You had me more zoned in five minutes ago than I did do now, but Julie: Right.
Brian: Um, is it a weakness,
Julie: you said, you know, we were talking about how yes, there is this part of you that does kind of go to, I, I either feel less than, or I wanna make sure I don't have to feel less than, and part of the way that you've regulated the pain around that place is to [00:49:00] get it right, be perfect, you know, live up to the standard that you have for yourself.
But then this other part comes in and says, well, I shouldn't have this, I shouldn't have to have this insecurity or whatever. There's weakness just in having that.
Brian: It's, it's probably come off the exact opposite is just toughness. You know, that I, I don't let things bother me or I push it down, or I say it doesn't matter or I don't care.
Or, um, you know, when it, it does, it does bother me. And I probably just, you know, I haven't let it out. I've just pushed it down. Like, you know, I, I can recall like watching, I don't know, like sad sappy movies and then like, when something would strike me, it was just like, I would just take a gulp and push it [00:50:00] down and like, not really. Let it out.
Julie: So when there's okay, you, when, when there's a bit of distance between you and the. The emotional thing that it, you can feel it more? Or are you saying like, even when that happens, I can't, I find myself wanting to move away from that.
Brian: Yeah. I, I, I do find myself moving away from it.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: Like, it's like I don't, I know that it's like a, maybe I perceive it as a weakness.
Julie: Okay. And so where, where did those messages come from, that, when, when did you have to learn that? You know, having too much painful emotion or vulnerability is just for weak people.
Brian: It's just, uh, it's how I was raised. You know, my, my grandparents were a [00:51:00] big part of my life. And back then, um. People like you didn't exist. There were that you weren't in the workforce, you know, like it was, it was get up and dust yourself off and keep going. And that's just how things were.
Julie: So Julie here, you know, this moment reveals the blueprint of Brian's emotional world.
He was presented with this false, you know, kind of binary growing up, that you can either be like his grandfather, stoic, and strong and silent, or the, the only other option is this opposite extreme. You can be like his mother, emotional, chaotic in this word. He uses train wreck. And given those options, of course he had to choose to shut down.
You know, he, he equates vulnerability with collapse. And our work here is to show him a third option, emotional strength, [00:52:00] and the strength and vulnerability. We're, we're teaching him that, sharing his feelings with Bethany. It isn't collapse. It's actually the strongest thing that he can do for his relationship and his self, his relationship with Bethany and his relationship with himself.
Brian: You know, we didn't grow up in a time where it was like, all right, everybody, let's sit down for cry time. And it wasn't like that. It was just be tough and get the job done and keep going. Nobody cares about your feelings. Just work harder.
Julie: So you didn't really get to see that kind of more human side of them where they struggled with something for you.
It was just like, they're just, they don't go there.
Bethany: I think all your stories about your grandparents in my head right now,
Brian: that's just what, that was the time. You know? Mm-hmm. Like, I know like.[00:53:00]
You know, I, I remember my grandfather worked his whole life, and then like in the eighties, the, the steel mills closed and you just, you lost everything and you just had to stare in the face and keep moving.
Julie: What do you think it would've happened to him if he just broke down and let the pain consume him?
And would he just have given up? Would he just have,
Brian: I don't think he would've given up. .
But it was,
Julie: what do you think the good reason was? That he just kind of put this stuff away and kept moving forward? You said that's just what you had to do then?
Brian: Yeah. Um, he, he just, I guess he put him, put everybody else in, in front of himself. I would say, you know, I, I, [00:54:00] I think by that time all of his kids would've been raised.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: But, um,
Julie: for whatever reason, you know, we don't have to completely understand it, but for whatever reason, good reason, what he had to do to survive this trauma Right. Of losing it all is he had to just keep going forward.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And he was, he was protecting from something, he was maybe partly protecting his own psychological, emotional health by avoiding these places that he were, he was afraid would maybe consume him.
I don't know. And then he was also trying to just protect his people, the, the people that were relying on him. And so what happens is is then that's what you observe. You don't see the part of him that struggles. And so then the message you get is strong. People don't, they don't show these parts. They [00:55:00] don't struggle.
They don't put words to these parts.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And for all I know, maybe he was, maybe they did talk to each other about that. I don't know. But I know that somehow you got the message that vulnerability is, is weak. There's no turning it on or off or whatever.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And so was it like not only is vulnerability a weakness, but like people who go there, like did you observe anybody that cried and carried on and got dramatic with their feelings?
Bethany: Your mom...
Brian: Yeah. My, my mom is a train wreck.
Julie: Yeah. Okay. So, so then not only do you not see the people that you have so much respect for, go into their be vulnerable, but then you see your mom getting just kind of overwhelmed with it all and not doing well in life.[00:56:00]
No wonder your brain had to learn not to go there.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Nobody was giving you that middle road, which is, hey, it's important to kind of have emotional health and talk about this stuff sometimes, but we also have to learn to turn it off and be strong to get, you know, through our daily activities or whatever. You just saw two extremes.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Julie: So how did you reconcile that with this part of you that did have all these feelings?
What did you say to that part of yourself?
Brian: I mean, in so many facets. It's just, I was just never going to be like that. I was never gonna live my life like that. Like financially or, you know, like [00:57:00] let things, emotions get in the way. Um,
Julie: what if you did, what would happen if you did?
Brian: I think I would just be like an emotional wreck like my mother was. Julie: And then how would your life have turned out?
Brian: Probably very similar to hers.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Like a train wreck.
Brian: Yeah. We used to call her like Mount St. Helen's. 'cause you just never knew when she was gonna erupt
and. It was sort of like just gaining control of your, of your life and prioritizing things. And you know, I shared a lot of this with Bethany, you know, along the
way. You know, I don't, I don't know if those [00:58:00] conversations, you know, tapped into these feelings or maybe she could see it clearer, but I think so.
Julie: So your whole life you've been carrying around this kind of belief that emotional, talking about emotion, showing emotions are a bad, bad thing. It's a threat. It turns you into a train wreck. It turns you into this reactive person that gets called Mount St. Helens. Like it maybe hurts other people.
Brian: Yeah.
But I could see that the. The tough side has hurt people too. So, you know, it's, it's sort of two extremes as well.
Julie: So wouldn't it be nice to find a middle ground here?
Brian: Yeah, I, I agree with that.
Julie: That's what you're doing and that shows [00:59:00] your resilience that you're here in spite of these messages that you got your whole life.
A lot of people just stick with those messages and,
Brian: yeah. I, I, if you can remember back, um, you know, many sessions ago, like, the reason why I decided to do this with you was, you know, I could move on from this relationship and get divorced and I could then be vulnerable with myself about the things that I could have done better.
I decided for once instead of like taking the approach that I've been, you know, raised by, I'll try something different.
Julie: Yeah.
And that really does speak to your strength as a person and wisdom as a person. [01:00:00]
Brian: Thank you.
Julie: Something to be proud of that you have been able to face these fears, that doing this emotional work and being vulnerable and it's, it's weak on one hand and it's dangerous on the other. It's not just weak. If you, if you just had your
grandparents, you know, you might say, well, you know, emotional emotion, doing emotions is just weak.
But then you had this really bad example on top of that, of what emotional expression looked like.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And so your whole life, you've had to learn to kind of find this way to stay strong.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I would say the last couple years more so than ever.
Julie: Mm-hmm. [01:01:00] Right. That was like, you know, your grandfather having his job fall apart, your family was falling apart.
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And so I just want you to tell Bethany this, just kind of let her in on it. It sounds like some of this, the both of you already already know, but I wanna see what happens if you, if you just share with her that like there is a part of me that fears that. Vulnerability and emotional work is, is weak and actually dangerous.
Threatening, I guess is maybe a better word.
Brian: Um, I, I feel like the being vulnerable, like this is just showing weakness and doesn't, um, [01:02:00] I, I, I somewhat won't allow it in my head because it doesn't accomplish anything that I wanna accomplish.
Julie: How is it to put some words to that and be clear?
Brian: It, it feels good. It's, it's liberating.
Julie: Can you tell me like. Where in your body the goodness is, is it like a, a relaxing feeling? Is it, do you feel some tension? Go away? I'm, I'm saying this because I want you to know
where to find this place in your body when you need to know when you need to go there.
Brian: You feel like you just have like full, like breathable lungs. Like you can just let it out and it's like you don't have to take short breaths about it.
Julie: And in this place, does it, can we agree that [01:03:00] it's, you know, you can think more clearly here.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: I think all of this stuff has been obvious in my own mind, but I'd take a different exit ramp, you know, so to speak.
Julie: Yeah. Right, you've had to take an exit ramp, which hasn't really led to a relief, maybe for five minutes if the mulch looks better or something, but ultimately this place has not been cared for and put it to towards in and helped.
And you can see here, there is some value in doing it because it does cause your body to go into more relaxed state. And then that will give you the space to kind of step back and go, all right, what can I kind of do differently here? These feelings are coming up. Like, what can I,
and then Bethany, how is
this for [01:04:00] you?
Bethany: It feels good to hear it. Um, again, I think I've, I've sort of known it, but it just hasn't been delivered. Great. Um, and. I did have a thought and it completely escaped me. I was thinking what I was gonna say when you were talking to me. Um, oh, I know what it was. I'm glad you're here.
I'm glad you're doing this with me, if not for us, but for you too. Brian: Yeah. It's been rewarding.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: What you're saying to me when you say, I've kind of known both of you are saying Yeah, I, I know it's there. What we're doing right now is we're making the implicit, which you kind of have this big idea of explicit. We're just getting really clear about it so we know what we're working with here.
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And helping you guys connect over that. So, [01:05:00] alright, well, we're gonna keep going with this on, um, our next session. I think it's Wednesday, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Alright, well we'll go ahead and, and stop there and, alright, Julie here. So, wow, you know, what a powerful testament to this freedom that comes with vulnerability.
You know, for his entire life, Bryan has believed that showing emotions is just a weakness. It's a fast track to becoming a train wreck like his mother. But today he discovered that the opposite is true. You know, by pushing his feelings down, he was actually creating more pressure, more anxiety, and more distance.
And when he finally let Bethany see this part of him that feels less than, he didn't get rejected, he got connection, and Bethany was able to lean in and say, when you share this part of you, it makes me wanna come in and help you. And that is the magic of secure attachment, our vulnerability. It's [01:06:00] not a burden, it's a bridge.
And what I have seen time and time again is that when couples can start having these connection and this, these connecting conversations and vulnerability starts to become successful, a lot of their surface level problems just do start to resolve on their own. And notice the somatic shift here. Brian described this feeling of vulnerability as liberating, saying he had full, breathable lungs for the first time.
And that is the feeling of safety. It's not, I think I'm safe. It's my body knows that I'm safe. So for your homework this week, I want you to think about a part of yourself that you hide because you think it's a weakness. You know, do you hide your anxiety? Do you hide your need for reassurance? Do you hide your feelings of not being good enough?
What would happen if you shared that part with your partner? Not as a complaint, but as a confession. And when I say [01:07:00] what would happen, I want you to really explore what you fear would happen and the value in what might come of. If you do learn how to do that and you, your relationship does learn how to hold vulnerability.
So we'd love to hear what happens when you take that risk. Please send us a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com, and your story might be featured in a future episode. So thank you for joining me today. Thank
you to Brian and Bethany for your vulnerability. We're watching two people learn in real time that they don't have to be perfect to be loved.
So until next time, take care of yourself and your [01:08:00] relationships.
