Session 17: Understanding the Anxious Partner - The Path to Accountability (Pt. 1)

Jan 6

In this episode

Brian shares a breakthrough with his daughter—helping her process bullying rather than telling her to 'toughen up'—and breaks a generational cycle. Julie then traces the 'very good reasons' behind his perfectionism and hard outer shell to a critical teacher and early abandonment. Together they unpack 'running on empty': Brian's short fuse is the cost of a lifetime of over-functioning. Part one closes with a pivot toward accountability, as Brian owns 50% of the negative cycle.

Key takeaways

Breaking generational cycles can start with how you coach a child through pain.
Perfectionism and a 'hard outer shell' usually have very good, protective origins.
'Running on empty' turns a short fuse into a predictable pattern.
Over-functioning is a survival strategy that can quietly sabotage a marriage.
Real change begins when you own your 50% of the negative cycle.

Session 17: Understanding the Anxious Partner - The Path to Accountability (Pt. 1)
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book, secure Love. So today we're gonna start with a breakthrough that happened outside of the couple dynamic between Bethany and Brian. So Brian is going to share about something that happened after our last session, and he took a drive with his oldest daughter and sadly she was being bullied at school and uh.
Instead of telling her just to toughen up, which is what he learned growing up, he was able to do something really new and just stay with her emotionally. And they were able to talk about her pain, not just around that event, but her fears around, you know, the potential divorce between Bethany and Brian, and even how all of this felt in her body.
And what he noticed is that she felt lighter the next day. And this is a really clear [00:01:00] example of how this work doesn't just affect the relationship, it changes things in the whole family and for the kids too. Um, when we, when we learn how to start showing up with our, for ourselves in new ways and for our partner in new ways.
Really starts to bleed out into lots of different relationships. So from there, we're going to look at where Brian's hard outer shell came from, and we're gonna come back to music, as you know, his only emotional outlet growing up. And then we'll go into the roots of his perfectionism. So today he'll share a really formative memory from fifth grade where a teacher actually told him he'd never amount to anything, and along with the pain of being dropped by his uncle, he experienced these messages even at school.
And these experiences really shaped a deep belief in him that he really just has to over perform to [00:02:00] have any worth at all. So we're going to put a lot of words also to this pattern of feeling dropped by key women in his life and how he had to become the emotional caretaker for his mother, which set him up for running on empty.
His short fuse in the marriage isn't just him randomly trying to be cruel, um, which is a problem. Um, but it's not random. It's a nervous system that has been exhausted for a very long time. So we're going to go to all those places, but then we're going to hit a stuck point because we're at a point in the therapy where we're getting down to the line here, and we really need to unpack Brian's shame underneath all of this.
Uh, but it's going to take me a while to get us there. And today's session is the start of that. Um, but for those of you who are interested in understanding more about where we are in the big picture of the work, um, so at this point in [00:03:00] the therapy, we have a few boxes checked. First, both Bethany and Brian feel safe with me.
They know I'm not here just to jump in and tell them what they're doing wrong without really trying to understand them first. And for Brian, this safety, you know, trust building has been a longer process because of his history. And, you know, he's said this himself, he doesn't trust anyone with, he has learned to do is trust himself only.
That includes trusting his way of making sense of his problems. So it's a longer process ultimately getting him to buy into this new way of making sense of things that I'm trying to sell him. But we have made a lot of headway there. And the next box we checked was the work with Bethany. So she trusted early on that made it easier for her to fully own her part of the problem, not just in their daily cycle, but in the bigger picture of, [00:04:00] you know, the, the financial infidelity and her ability to take ownership really opened the door to understanding why and how she did what she did and what painful feelings she was trying to manage.
By doing what she did. This, this helped her access and sit with the feelings so they could move through, she could move through the feelings and. Her ownership and awareness. It moved her out of defense defensiveness, which really helped her validate and show up for Brian's pain. And she apologized in a more meaningful way, and she also, as we worked, got clearer about what she needs from Brian to feel safer and closer instead of just doing her old move, which is just trying to keep the peace by getting small.
And so Bethany's vulnerability, ownership, and clarity, invited Brian in it, put them on the same team, it eased his nervous system and started opening the door to his deeper work, [00:05:00] which is about a lot of unprocessed grief and shame from childhood. And we've touched this pain. We've named it and we've talked about how it shows up in their cycle, but we still have some work to do.
And part of that work is for him to learn to reach to Bethany Vulnerably and ask her for help too, instead of just showing his pain with anger. But for that to happen, we have to get him into his shame. Just like we got into Bethany's Shame. And it's going to take a couple of sessions to get there, but if we don't get to the shame and help it in the way it needs, we can never expect to really see full behavior change.
So what you're going to see in this session is me trying to get to that work too soon, and I'm not going to be very successful today. Um, but it's still going to open up a really important conversation about whether or not Brian is going to be able to truly and fully own his part in the negative cycle.
But before we go there with Brian, of course we have to [00:06:00] turn it to you, the listeners, and we're going to start with an email from Angel. So Angel says, hi Julie. My name is Angel, and I've been listening to the awesome work you're doing with Bethany and Brian. I just wanna say I first found you on Instagram because I was in desperate need to figure out how to fix my marriage.
I've listened to your book and loved it, but was still unsure about how to implement what I heard when I came across your podcast. Gold was struck in these sessions. This one has really landed well. I honestly see a lot of the emotional issues are the same in my marriage. This episode has made it just a little bit easier to put words to my feelings and needs.
I feel just like Bethany on the inside, and I found myself found making myself small throughout the whole marriage. So feeling like my hurts just aren't as big as his from his childhood trauma to the hurts he's done to me versus the ones I've done to him. I just cannot express myself to him because I feel like it won't matter [00:07:00] anyway, or it's not going to matter because his hurt was worse.
I know that I need to stand up for me and my hurts in order to show up for him, and he needs me to show up for him and I really needed to hear this today and I thank you for the work that you do. Alright, well, you're so welcome, angel. I appreciate you sharing this struggle and I just encourage you to keep up the good work.
You know what, what I have or what, what I'm offering you and all listeners isn't so much a prescription, but a model. And what I have found is that when you keep operating from the model, the model of emotional safety building and using this model to address the roadblocks that will inevitably come up, the growth will keep happening.
And one day you'll look back and you'll see that you are able to hold each other's pain more fully without it having to keep going to well who gets to hurt worse. Okay, well thanks again, angel for listening and sending us a message. And [00:08:00] now we're going to hear a voice note from Robin.
Robin: Hi Julie. Thank you so much for this episode.
Um, that was really helpful to me because I feel like I go through a very similar negative cycle where I, my need, my attachment need is to feel chosen and, um, I get very triggered when I see my boyfriend jump in to help somebody else, like specifically another woman. I know, I get a little bit jealous and I wanna feel chosen, and I understand that a lot of this comes from my childhood and I try really hard to regulate myself and to go to him for support after I've regulated myself and tell him, you know, this is what I think I was needing in that moment.
But. He loves helping people and that's just who he is. And, um, I get a little bit confused sometimes because I'm like, okay, am I gonna keep getting triggered over and over again? Is is it self work? Is [00:09:00] it, do we need a compromise on the situation? And that's where I think I get a little bit confused because I'm not really sure which direction to take it once I see the trigger happening, um, frequently.
And then he starts to obviously feel like he has to compromise who he is if I'm getting triggered and it, we get a little bit stuck. So I hope that makes sense. Um, I just get a little bit confused once I identify what the core need was and bring it up to him and he meets that need in that moment. Um, and I feel like he'll consistently be there for me when I have those needs.
But the triggers. Do something crazy in my body. I just like my nervous system freaks out immediately. Um, if you have any insight, I would love to hear it and thank you so much for these episodes.
Julie: Alright Robin, so this is a great question. Um, and you started with, um, I think asking is [00:10:00] this self work? Yes, it does start with self-work here.
Okay. So there, the, the, the first piece is the self-work around what you describe as a freak out. So we need for you to get really clear about what the fear is. You know, when we say freak out, that means there is a fear there. So you, you said, you know, it's something around not being chosen. So I need for you to be able to get really clear with yourself about what's so scary about not being chosen.
Where does that take you? What feeling does that take you to? My guess is that there have been moments in life. In your past, um, where you haven't felt chosen growing up and you developed wounds around that and every time you experienced not feeling prioritized or not feeling important enough to be chosen there, there was grief and loss in that moment.
And you know that there's grief work to do there, to just put [00:11:00] your back, self back in that situation and, and feel some of those feelings that you didn't get to feel because nobody was there to support you through them. And you know, this isn't just the grief work for you on your own, you know, that can be enormously helpful just to let yourself feel that sadness, but it's also about seeking comfort and support around those feelings.
Just saying to your partner, look, you know, there is a lot of grief around this for me. You know, I did get a lot of messages growing up that I wasn't a priority and there was a lot of sadness. You know, kids get sad when they get those messages. And you know, this, this work can be done outside of these situations where it all gets triggered and then there might be some shame there.
You know, is there a part of you that thinks that maybe you aren't worthy of being chosen first, and that belief is so painful to go there to face that, that you, you then need your partner to work overtime and maybe compromise their own sense of self to avoid touching that shame in you. So that, [00:12:00] that needs to be looked at too.
That shame if it's there, it needs space and it needs words. And then we need to look at, you know, like you said, um. You know, how has your partner impacted, you know, their feelings matter to your partner's, feelings matter too. And they, your partner needs space to, to share, you know, what it means for them to help other people.
And what does it bring up for your partner when he feels like he has to compromise himself? You know, he probably has pain and shame and grief around there too. And he gets messages that, you know, his needs don't matter. And he probably had experiences growing up around this where he got those messages.
And if not, at the very least, what he's saying to you is, you know, to feel safe and close, I need to know. You can acknowledge my needs too. Otherwise, I just feel really alone. And if you hear it in that way from that place of vulnerability, it might help you open up and want to help him too. [00:13:00] And so once you've kind of met each other in all of this and you've done some of this emotional work and really gotten down to the core of the pain that you guys are trying to manage through this, you know, surface issue, then we go into problem solving.
And if we've done this vulnerability work, you know what will probably happen is you both will be able to kind of see each other a little more clearly and
empathize a, a little more deeply with the feelings going on here and come from a come at it from a place of, you know, how can we help each other here?
How can I help my partner know that, you know, he, he doesn't have to compromise his sense of self just to help me manage all my bad feelings. How can he see that, Hey, you've got a lot of pain around this and how can I help lessen that burden? And if, if you can do that work and just try to meet each other in the vulnerability, then you can expect that eventually this will kind of naturally sort [00:14:00] itself out.
So again, thank you Robin for that. It was a very, um, very good question and thank you for your, your vulnerability and just putting words to that. Alright, well now let's dive into session 17 with Bethany and Brian. Well jumping in. I wanted to kind of continue our work over here with you, Brian, if you're okay with that.
Um, but first I'll check in. Did anything come up for you guys? Brian: No.
Julie: Anything come up? Any insights or anything come up for you, Brian? Just after our work, last time
Brian: I had a, an episode with my older daughter.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: And I think, uh, doing this work with you, I was able to. Extract all of this stuff out of her.
Yeah. And um, she had, uh, she's in sixth grade and she has a, a boy that I, I guess has been calling her [00:15:00] fat like throughout like maybe five or six times throughout the school year so far. And, um, she just was upset about it. And so we took like a long drive and talked about it. And then she, you know, went to dance, did her stuff through the night, and then we, we dug in deep and we, we, I got her to sort of gi give me her true emotions about Bethany and I's relationship and how that makes her feel and, you know, what's going on with her as far as like being that child that's like in between like the two families.
Yeah. It was like, it was a lot of stuff that, like we talked about on Monday that, that she was feeling. So it was like, it was really easy for me because it was so
fresh for me to sort of dig back into those, those thoughts and, um, and it was like exactly what she was [00:16:00] going through.
Julie: All right, so I wanna pause here.
Uh, just to celebrate this moment, you know, this is what we call the ripple effect of attachment work. Brian came to therapy to save his marriage, but look at what is happening. He's changing the way he parents, you know, he grew up with a grandfather who was enormously helpful to him in life in many ways, but also taught him, you know, just to dust yourself off and keep going.
And there is value in that sometimes, but there's also times when that approach isn't the emotional nurturing approach that a child might need. And so here he is breaking that cycle and he's offering his daughter the emotional safety he never had. So when we do the hard work of facing our own feelings, we automatically create space for the people We love to feel theirs.
We realize, hey, this isn't so bad. There's actually value in this. And the somatic release that his daughter felt, that refreshed feeling, [00:17:00] that's the power of really, really truly being heard. So how did that feel for you to be able to give her that gift?
Brian: Pretty good because me and Bethany talked, um, a little bit Monday night, and I, I was giving her some of like the, you know, stuff that was going on, the conversations and stuff.
And it wasn't until like later on, like maybe 10 o'clock that we really like dug in deep. But, um, I, you had said to me, um, like, who protected you in those times? And if I was to like think back, I, I, music was, um, was sort of my go-to because like I could feel the pain and connect with the pain and the lyrics of, of, you know, different songs and artists [00:18:00] and stuff like that.
And that's sort of like, you know, always been my connection it was, was to music and going to concerts and stuff like that. Um, I wasn't able to put words to it, but they were, and I could connect with that, that feeling and, you know, I could play it over and over again to sort of like heal, I guess, or to feel, you know, what they were going through.
Julie: Yep. So music was kind of like, became like an attachment figure for you.
Brian: Oh, big time.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: Yeah, if you, if you walk around my house, it's decorated with lithographs and art. Art and all kind of stuff everywhere. .
Julie: Well, I mean, I think it, it speaks to that, that it was a song that kind of re motivated you in the relationship.
Bethany: I was just thinking that.
Julie: Yeah.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: It's pretty powerful.
Brian: [00:19:00] Yeah, I think so. It has been from, you know, most of my life.
Julie: Well, let's, let's kind of jump in. First of all, just, I, I commend you and I celebrate with you the fact that you were able to have that with your daughter and give that, I mean, I think we can all agree that it feels as good to provide that, especially to our kids, um, as it does to get It was healing.
Yeah,
Brian: yeah, yeah. Like we both cried and, you know, it was good for her to get it out and, um, it was a good moment. Even though it was a, like a somewhat of a negative moment, it was, it was a good moment. So thank you.
Julie: I'm sure it was extremely helpful, healing and relieving for her too. I'm, I'm sure that yeah.
It's crazy how those kinds of conversations will impact the way that she's affected by this, you know, terrible situation at school. It just give, provides so much resilience to that [00:20:00] stuff. At least they don't have to be alone with it, you know?
Brian: Yeah. I, I, um, we were up pretty late, so I told her, you know, don't worry about waking up and going to school.
Like, you'll just be sick tomorrow. Sleep as long as you want. And when I called her in the morning, I was already at work and I said, you know, how do you feel? And she said, like, so refreshed Wow. To get, to get like that load off of her and get it out. 'cause I think she had been pushing it down for like.
Like three to five years, you know, because that's like when you know, her siblings started multiplying and, um, it, it was good. Like I, I'm surprised that we didn't notice it sooner. But you know, like when you said that like my, um, what is the word I'm looking for? Like the two extremes between my mom and my grandfather.
Like, I probably adopted more of my grandfather's side and for [00:21:00] her she sees me as tough and strong. And then maybe her mom is like, you know, a little bit more emotional than me. So maybe she couldn't, you know, be comfortable unloading that on me. 'cause maybe I wouldn't be as receptive to it. But, um, it was, it just, it was a good experience.
I think it was, it was nice to let it go for her and to know it for me, and. I even, you know, I even told Bethany about, like, we got into some of her true feelings about, you know, us being separated and, uh, for a while she kept on saying like, I like it how it is. You know, I'm, I, I, I like it like this. I don't want Bethany back.
And I asked her truthfully about that, you know, once we, once I got somewhere and she's, she's, she does want that. Yeah, she does want us [00:22:00] back. She wants a female figure in her life here as opposed to when she goes back and forth. Yeah. So, you know, that was very telling. I thought,
Bethany: I think the message would've been like, if we hadn't had you, Julie, to work through some of this, I think that conversation with her would've been really different.
Then it was yesterday or two days ago.
Brian: Yeah.
Bethany: It wouldn't, it wouldn't have come off, I don't think as, as good as it did. Or may not even, may not have even happened at all.
Brian: Yeah. Possibly.
Bethany: Um, or, or just a different tone to it. Right. Where it's like, don't worry about it. I'm not discounting you, but I'm just saying like, it, it may have been more like, don't worry about it, don't let this kid get to you.
It's not a big deal. Versus [00:23:00] digging deep,
Julie: what we usually do is help people in the way that we've learned to help ourselves. Yeah. Good or bad. Right. And so what you're learning and hear is how to really see yourself and, and in that you're getting to really see her and really you're learning to show up for you.
And it's so much easier to see. These parts of others when we can see it in ourselves. So you're doing just incredible work. It's gonna change the whole trajectory of your kids' lives. And, you know, forget about your own. That's great too. But isn't it really great to know that you can break these cycles with your kids?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Um, and then, and then on top of that, you know, now she knows you're, you're giving her a taste of what to look for in relationships going forward. I like feeling seen. I like feeling understood. I like feeling, you know, all these, getting all these attachment you needs met. [00:24:00] And that will help her choose a partner later.
That's healthy.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So, all right, well, let's kind of go forward here. I wanna, you know, we talked about. Just your experiences with your uncle and not, not getting protected from the pain of kind of feeling dropped and how you had to learn to, you know, work overtime to keep everything perfect. And, um, I wanna take that to, to a bit of a deeper place.
So if we could just kind of go, go back to, you know, some of the stuff you said about, you know, the very good reasons that you had to learn to really overfocus on the external things to help you with the internal things. Alright, Julie here. So
since there's no fire to put out today, I'm going to try and, like I said earlier, do some deeper work with Brian because we are getting close to the end of our work and if we [00:25:00] don't get to the shame, it will keep coming out in negative cycles.
His body will just keep trying to avoid the shame with behaviors that are trying to manage it. End up getting in the way of safety and closeness in his relationship. So that's where I'm going today. But like I mentioned earlier, you'll see that I'm going to get blocked by what is ultimately Brian's difficulty taking full responsibility for his role in the relationship problems.
I can't get to the shame if he's not yet willing to take ownership of his failures in the relationship as his own, not just as unavoidable reactions to Bethany's failures. And he's not experiencing this block on purpose. He's just had this really rigid way of making sense of their problems as all on her for so long that it's hard for him to see it any other way.
Um, what comes up for you? Just as I say that, [00:26:00] as I say, you know, my whole life I had to be a perfectionist and. Work over time and kind of be driven by anxiety, um, just to kind of feel a sense of worth. And I, and I understand, you know, when I, when I say these things, I always wanna counterbalance it with, it's not all bad.
There's a lot of strength on that. You know, we all need to develop skills to make it in the world. And the world can be a, you know, cruel place. Right? Um, and this doesn't define you, right? But if we're just talking to that part of you that has sort of had to be driven by anxiety your whole life,
Brian: I think it's more of like my, like adult professional life more than it was, um, childhood or like, you know, teenager years.
Julie: So if we can just kind of look back and say, well, we know that, you know, this, [00:27:00] these experiences with your uncle impacted you. In some way, like how did you deal with that? How did you manage to be resilient in spite of the pain that that would cause any child on some level?
Brian: I mean, I was very involved. I played a bunch of sports. I had a lot of friends. I girlfriends, you know, it's, you know, I, I think I had a pretty good life in, in that regard. But there was like another time in the, this always stuck with me that like, I think I was in fifth grade and we had a substitute teacher and I, I got like kicked outta class, or I, you know, was asked to leave for whatever reason and.
I [00:28:00] was accused of like flipping off the, the teacher as I left and I didn't, and I got sent to the principal's office. And then when our real teacher came back, he pulls me outside and he said to me like, you know, son, you can look in, look me in the face and you know, when you get older I'm gonna look
at you and you're gonna look at me and you're gonna put your head down because you're gonna know that I was right about you or something like that.
Oh God. And it just seemed like I was like a, like a troublemaker or I was gonna be some kind of a loser or something like that. And, you know, that, I guess that drove me a little bit. It wasn't like my, I didn't wake up thinking that every day, but, you know, just like, sort of like the, the. The [00:29:00] aura around you that like, feels like you're not gonna be successful, I think drove me to, to do those things.
And then I've said this a few times in like my plight into, you know, my business and rentals and whatever else I'm involved in. It's, uh, every time I, I accomplish something that I set out to do, I, I would get to that point where it's like, I'd be smiling, I'd be happy that I, I got to this point, or I bought this, or I own this.
Um, but like every time that I, I accomplished it, it was like I felt like I was gonna go to like the center of the building or the engine of the car and, and open it up and be like, here's happiness. And, and it just, like, I realized that like, I just wasn't happy with all of, [00:30:00] you know, those accomplishments.
There was like something sort of missing and I, I don't, I don't know exactly what, but, um,
Julie: well, you got a taste of what was missing yesterday with your daughter, which is deep connection.
Brian: Yeah. And it's not like I didn't have that, it just wasn't from mm-hmm. The people that I expected it from.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: You know, um, it was easy
Julie: to get it, like in maybe like friendships or
Brian: Yeah.
Friendships. Like, you know, I had, I had like second moms and, you know Yeah. Families that I was really close with and, um, you know, my, my relationship with my grandparents, right. Um, or mentors, things like that.
Julie: All right. I wanna focus on here, you know, there's a lot of important stuff that you're saying and we can get to that, but I really wanna focus [00:31:00] on this event.
'cause it, it was important enough to bring it up and it was a driving force for you that you won't be successful, right? You got this message that you won't be successful. And just in that moment, do you remember what that felt like?
Brian: It was, you know, it was pretty horrible. It was, you felt less than, or like, you're not good enough, you know?
And, um, you know, some of those messages that I got, I felt like my daughter was getting, you know, in her own life. And, and it was, I don't know, it just sort of opened up a safe space to tell her that. You can tell me like your feelings about it. Because I was there at one point.
Julie: And is, are there other times when you have been [00:32:00] there, other than this, like, do you remember other moments where you got messages that you, that took you to I'm not, not good enough, less than,
Brian: you know, there's, there's a connection that me and Bethany spoke of like a week or two ago that was like, you know, Bethany calling the police on me and everything surrounding that.
Um, be before we were gonna get married, my mom tried to like, blow up the wedding. Um, not for something that we did, it was just, you know, her whole agenda. And then I had like a best friend growing up. That like, I would go, I
was like, you know, another son to them. And that relationship blew up like maybe two or three years [00:33:00] ago.
And it was like, like three main women in my life that just sort of like betrayed me, you know, like just dropped me for whatever reason.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And so the, I was gonna say, you know, the, the common commonality between all these offense is, is an emotional abandonment, a betrayal.
Brian: And it's me, you know,
Julie: I know we'll talk about that, but I just, I just wanna, you know, highlight the fact that however we get there, you get taken to this place multiple times in
your life and you remember them, where you get messages, you're less in, you're not good enough, you're betray able.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Right. And just. I just want you to kind of close your eyes and see what comes up when, when I say, you know, throughout your life you have had to struggle with [00:34:00] messages that you're less than and you're not good enough. And those messages certainly don't define the feedback that you've gotten, but they did impact you.
So if we could just close your eyes and see what comes up less than not good enough, betrayal.
Those are some pretty big words.
Brian: Yeah. There's just a lot of pain behind it.
Julie: Yeah. And we know, you know, one of the ways that you've been trying to regulate that pain is, is getting it right, being perfect, you know, somehow being successful. And again, there's strength in that, but
that's one of the ways. You know, there hasn't been a lot of words to this place, and you know that for your daughter, yes, you want her to try to be successful in the world, but isn't it nice when she can have some help and put some words to those feelings?
Brian: Yeah. [00:35:00]
Julie: Right. And just talking to, to the part, I mean, it's easy.
Like you, you said a minute ago, you know, I had a part two, it's, it's easy to look at the part where it's like, yeah, I mean, clearly the people that send those messages had something going on with them, right? They weren't able, they didn't have the skills, whatever, to be like, Hey, you know, this isn't okay and help, help me understand more.
But you know, just let me protect you from going to a place where you're less than or not good enough as we have this conversation, however that would've sounded. But I wanna know in these moments. What you told yourself about why you were getting these messages? Like did you, how did you make sense of it as you getting it wrong?
Like, I'm not trying hard enough. I actually, I mean, the police incident, like, let's just do that one since that's related to the two of you. Was there a part of you that believed Yeah, [00:36:00] there's something I did to bring this on
Brian: for the police incident? You know, I'm, I'm not gonna say that I was completely innocent leading up to it, but I was never that malicious in my pursuit of the end of this relationship.
Julie: What was, what was not innocent?
Brian: You, you know, the things that, that are done and said to each other. You know, the negative cycles, you know, all the, the name calling or the arguments like leading up to it.
Julie: Okay. So all na name calling, you know, not showing up as your best self in arguments
Brian: for the both
of us. Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: I, I get it and I, I do wanna talk to her, but right now I just wanna kind of focus on you, you're saying to me, look, as much as I understand that [00:37:00] a lot of this wasn't deserved, I, I can also recognize, you know, I wasn't necessarily innocent in the situation.
I had participated in some things that weren't so healthy for our relationship. And I, I wanna know, like,
and you know, again, I'm, I'm just talking to a part of you that might be lingering around in there. So we can get some words to it, but what do you tell yourself about the fact that you weren't able to be more innocent, that you weren't able to not name, call or not have a part
in, in the negative stuff here?
Brian: I mean, as I look back at some of the, the incidents or stances that I took, it was, [00:38:00] I, I felt like I, I was somewhat vulnerable and I would voice my opinions about things. They just sort of fell on deaf ears, you know? And
Julie: Right. We can, you know, we can all always make sense of it as she had her limitations too.
Right. And we can, we can talk more about her limitations and her deaf ears, but I wanna know. How you made sense of it is what you were getting wrong.
And I'm talking to that insecure part.
Brian: Oh, you're saying what we were just discussing, um,
Julie: like were you not trying hard enough? Were you not able, like what, what kind of about you led to this name calling? What was it about you, you know, what shortcoming in you was driving the stuff that you were [00:39:00] getting wrong again? Were you not trying hard enough? Were you too selfish? Were you too, I don't, I'm trying to think of all the things people tell themselves around this.
Brian: If I could think back, I, I felt like I couldn't do much more. Mm-hmm. Uh, I felt like I was juggling way too many things. And then on top of hurting. Being, you know, forced to perform constantly. I just felt pulled in a bunch of
different directions and then when, you know, I, I tore my, my arm up, then I just was even lower than, you know, than I could have ever been.
And I, I just was, you know, driven by fear of like the unknown or like, what, what's my business gonna be like, you [00:40:00] know, what's my, when will I be able to, to work again? When will I able to be doing the normal things that I could do? And then, then when that incident happened, it was just like, like complete and utter shock.
Like, I can't believe that I could be this low. And you could maliciously. Kick me down further.
Julie: Alright, so notice here how Brian can't see the police incident in a broader context as part of an ongoing dynamic. When, when I asked him to be more specific and put words to his role, it just keeps circling back to this idea I was only trying to get my needs met and Bethany kept failing me.
So when someone is so heavily leaning into blame like Brian, it's because it protects them from what they think are intolerable feelings of shame and powerlessness. [00:41:00] Those feelings aren't actually intolerable. They just never had anyone help them move through them. So they learned to avoid them. And this is, this is all happening subconsciously.
And anyway, the shame is saying, again, out of awareness. If I really have a part here, then I'm the problem. And if I'm the problem, maybe I'm not safe. Maybe
I've been wrong the whole time, maybe I am asking for too much. Maybe I don't deserve what I'm asking for. Maybe I am just this loser that this teacher told me I would be.
And then we have the powerlessness that says, well, it doesn't really matter how much I change, it won't matter because my change isn't enough to get them to change. I have to just keep focusing on getting them to change. So when someone is fighting so hard to not feel shame and to not feel powerless, it becomes very hard for them to see their role at all.
So I'm going to start being more [00:42:00] explicit with Brian here because when he keeps circling back to Bethany as the problem, we're missing the full picture. And it leaves Bethany feeling misunderstood and alone, which makes closeness impossible and fuels the cycle. So you can just see it happen over and over.
I try, try to bring the focus back to him, and it slides right back to, I had to do that because Bethany wasn't getting it right for me. So you're, you're also going to see, it's going to shift into this narrative that he's just too giving, again, the conversation about his problematic role just can't be held.
Alright, so let's go back in. So see, see how your nervous system just want it, it happens so fast that it wants to keep going back to her part. Her part, her part. And we started out with, I know I wasn't innocent, but I still don't know what wasn't innocent is, and when I try to [00:43:00] get more clear about not innocent, we go back to I tried, I tried.
She wasn't there. She wasn't there.
So I wanna, I wanna just that there is truth to all of that. There is absolutely truth to, even if I showed up in the most perfect way possible, she has her own stuff that would get in the way. That's what happens in these cycles is both of you're bringing this, these blocks to the table. But if we could just stick for a while with this part that says, I wasn't innocent.
'cause I wanna know more about what's not innocent because right now you can rationally say to me, name calling isn't a good idea, right?
Brian: No.
Julie: Okay. So what is it about you? What were you, what kind of caused you like other, other people might, and, and again, I'm just talking to a [00:44:00]
part and I'm trying to put words to these beliefs in you, not project these beliefs onto you.
Right? And so what is different about you than people who don't go to name calling, that don't regulate their feelings with name calling? Was it that you didn't learn? How was it that? You didn't try hard enough. You didn't have a aware, I don't know.
Brian: I, I don't, I don't know.
Julie: We all make sense of our failures. We all have a part of us that makes sense of our failures as our own fault. We all have a part of us that makes sense of it as, yeah, they weren't being their best self either. I wanna talk to that part of you, part of that. If you, if this relationship does not work out and you do have [00:45:00] to with for the rest of your life, which I hope this doesn't happen, but for the rest of your life, like question your own part, what is that part?
What are you gonna walk away thinking you should have done better?
Brian: Um. I, I think I shared this with you in our, our one-on-one was like the whole time that I said that I couldn't do much more. I had no other choice but to do much more at that point when, when we separated, because I have two, two
girls to take care of and I have laundry, I have cleaning, you know, on top of the tasks that I've already done in somehow some way I was able to manage it.
You know, I wasn't falling apart. So I looked at it as, you know, I could have done more,
Julie: what's more, [00:46:00]
Brian: it could have been more tasks, you know, that meant, that had more intrinsic value than just the task itself. You know, it could have been, you know. Unloading the dishwasher every night of the week or doing laundry once a week, you know, just to alleviate some of the stress that she was going through.
Julie: Okay. I wanna hold there. I wanna hold there for a minute. You're, you're, you're doing great. A great job here. It's like, I, I did walk away from it going, maybe I could have done better, maybe I could have just helped out more.
Brian: Not initially. Probably took me two, three months to get to the point where I felt I could have done more.
'cause I was doing it. It was, I was realizing it.
Julie: Okay. So this, this is helpful. This is, this is going somewhere, you know, I wanna take this to one more level, which is [00:47:00] what stopped you from doing that to begin with? What got in the way? What would've been different? That you wouldn't, what would you have done differently if you didn't have to go to, maybe
Brian: I should have helped more,
um, because I felt like I was already doing enough to begin with. So it wasn't an, it wasn't a partnership. It was, I was being taken advantage of.
Julie: Okay. So see how we shift back over to her part? And I wanna stay with your part. I just wanna stay with this part that says maybe I could have helped out more.
I wanna understand what got in the way in your mind of not helping out more. Did you say, well, maybe I was just too selfish. Maybe I was just too oblivious. Maybe
Brian: I, I think I gave too much
and, and I [00:48:00] think all of, in all of those situations, like. The best friend's mother in that relationship, her and my mother. It was, was that I, I've always done everything and anything to make them happy, except I, when I realized that I wasn't making myself happy.
Julie: So let me, let me go with that then. With you.
You're saying to me, look, here I am in life. I'm trying to give, give, give. I'm trying to be the best person I can be. I'm trying to succeed, I'm trying to work hard to keep this ship afloat. And yet here I find myself back in these situations where no matter how much I give, I keep feeling dropped.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
And, and I guess what I wanna know is,
was there a part of you [00:49:00] that said. What am I getting wrong that I keep finding myself dropped? We can make sense of it as the people had their blocks to, right? We can easily go, okay, here's what they were getting wrong. I wanna know what you told yourself about you, that you ke kept finding yourself back in the situation.
The same tape playing over and over, that you're overgiving and here you are dropped again.
You know when your daughter has this person bullying her at school, right? Everybody can easily make sense of it as well. This kid has issues. Nobody bullies people unless they've got their just mean or whatever, you know, whatever it is that we make sense of it as. But do you think there's also a little voice inside of her that says Something must be wrong [00:50:00] with me?
That I'm getting treated like this.
Brian: I do, you know, I, I've, I've, I've said that to her and like when we spoke of this, like there's, there's gotta be something wrong with me that I keep ending up in this situation.
Julie: Okay. So I really wanna talk to that and I wanna understand more. I wanna, I want that part to have a voice right now.
Because when we can give voice to that part, it stops having power over us. And so what is it that you made sense that I'm getting? Was it again, circling back to I just give too much? Is that what you got? Is that what you've been getting wrong this whole time in your mind?
Brian: I, maybe I'm giving it the wrong way. I, I'm, I'm not exactly sure. Julie: Okay.[00:51:00]
What do you tell yourself you need to do different to not keep having to replay the same tape over and over.
Be protect yourself more. Not, not give so much pull back. I mean, that is what you did when things really got bad between the two of us, is you stopped giving, you stopped mowing the lawn. You stopped.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I, I was, I was going back there just now. I was like, you know, and then when I started taking things away, you know, at least, at least for her it was, you know, she tried to say that it backfired.
And I, and I was like
Julie: I wanna know more about how that helped you feel safer. Because what you're telling me is some important stuff you're saying, look, the way I ended up making sense of all this stuff, and there's probably truth to it, is I was overgiving, I wasn't kind of being mindful more of myself and, [00:52:00] you know, in these ways.
And so what felt safer was to pull back on the giving. Maybe if I don't give as much, then I'll be heard. Then I'll be actually seen. Then I won't have to get dropped again. I'll get respect. I don't know.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, I was, I think I was tired of, of taking on everybody else's stress. Um, you know, and like when my grandmother died and she made me the executor, a a couple people said to me that like, they picked you for a reason.
Is is because you can handle all of this stuff. All at once on top of everything else that you have going on. And that gets exhausting because it, it's just like you're constantly holding everybody else's piss bucket [00:53:00] and you just get all the garbage.
Julie: Yeah. So let's slow down with that. What you're saying is your whole life, you've taken it all on, even at the expense of your own wellbeing.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So I need to understand why taking it all on was the best option for you, why you weren't able to kind of step back and go, all right. I need to take on as much as I can to help the people I love, but I also can't run myself into the ground and cause myself to be resentful and all these things
Brian: because nobody steps up to do it.
Julie: Okay.
And if it doesn't get done,
Brian: I, I mean, for my, for my grandmother's, you know, will I, I, it, it'll be two years coming up. I still don't [00:54:00] think the estate would be settled if, if my other uncle was, was the executor,
Bethany: or he would've had to hold his hand, he would've ended up doing it anyhow. In that case, yeah,
Brian: I would, I would've had to walk him into every meeting, you know, explore all the, the different, and
Julie: if you didn't, let's say you didn't exist, who, what would've happened? Brian: Probably everything that I'm saying now.
Julie: So, so you've had to kind of, what you're telling me is I've had to pull it together and take it all on, because otherwise it doesn't get done.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And then. To take that a step further. What's it like for you when things don't get done? Do you take, do you feel like I could have stepped in, I could have done more?
Brian: No, I mean, I just burn the candle at both ends, you know, I lose [00:55:00] sleep, you know, my body physically breaks down physically and mentally. And then when
Julie: did you start burning the candle at both ends? How old were you when this started?
What I'm trying to do here and, and you don't have to have the answers, you're not supposed to, that's why we're working together, is I'm trying to understand why burning the candle at both ends was an option for you. Why it became a safe thing. It, it was somehow, there's, there's lots of layers to this stuff, right?
Nobody wants to see bad things happen. But there's also this part of it that there was some emotional need for you here to burn the candle at both ends. And I wanna help you get that need met in a healthier way than having to keep exhausting yourself. I need to know what the need is though.
It's, I [00:56:00] guess it's to stay safe. To stay safe from disappointment, to stay safe from seeing the people that you love be not taken care of.
Brian: I, yeah, I guess so. Um, you know, like we talked about this before, it's like the, you know, I'm, I'm fear driven or, um, anxious about, you know, the worst of things happening. Um, you know, I, I, I think back to growing up, it was like. When I did, I didn't have the abilities to do all these things as a kid. And like my parents were split up and my mom got a new boyfriend that it was like, you know, so many things in life were better.
And then it was all hinged on that relationship. And then when that would fall back, it was [00:57:00] crisis mode and trying to keep things together. And then,
Julie: and what was crisis mode like for you? Do you remember that? Can you paint me a picture of everything? Chaos in your life?
Brian: I mean, like my mom would fall apart.
It was, you know, then I'd have to like be there emotionally for her and then put like my, I like I wasn't able to be like a kid, you know what I mean?
Julie: All right. So you learned, you learned at an early age that you have to take on more than you're capable of taking on to keep things afloat. And, and there's truth to it, things would've fallen apart.
You didn't have an adult, at least in your mom, taking care of things, protecting you from feeling this burden.
Brian: Yeah, like, I mean, it was, you know, I'm the, I'm the oldest, so I, you know, take care of my brother and, and when she gets home, she [00:58:00] just downloads all of her emotions onto me. And then it wasn't until she got married and like, or remarried and like, I think I was like maybe 12 or 13, and then I got to be like a kid for a little bit, you know?
And then I think they, they split up like my senior year and it was like, oh, here we go again. Like, you know, we gonna have to move.
Julie: So there's
another abandonment.
Brian: No, not
really. You know, we, we, we actually still have a relationship with him.
Julie: But still in, I guess what I'm saying is still, you found yourself back in the role I've now, you know, this guy isn't here to help take care of her.
And now I gotta go back into that. So you, what you're telling me is I got about three or four years to actual have like a carefree childhood. I mean, it, it's all clicking together for me. Why you had to learn to take care of [00:59:00] everything. Because if you didn't take care of everything, things would've truly fallen apart.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm. You didn't have your mom in the, the adult in your home day in and day out helping you. Right. And so I'm thinking what happens is, is that you, you have to carry, you know, your, your body was trained to, to have that approach. That's how you stay safe. And, and so then. Your whole life, you've, you've exhausted yourself.
You said, I don't sleep, I don't, you know, all these bad things happen. So it makes a lot of sense to me that when you know, the stress gets peaks, that's when your body just kind of falls apart and falls back into calling names or whatever. You're tapped, your resources are gone.
Brian: Yeah. I mean, I, I think I tried to work to the point to have [01:00:00] so much that if, if another like blow to the family would happen, that we were able to absorb it.
And even if we got taken down a peg, it wasn't the end of the world. Whereas like if we only had one home and that was threatened, like then you could, you wouldn't have nothing anymore. You would still have. You know, more chances to absorb these types of blows. 'cause that, you know, just gonna, that's life.
It's gonna happen.
Julie: Okay. So, so this is really helpful. What you're saying is, is I, I not only pushed myself physically, but then I, I don't know if maybe what you're saying is we overextended financially and that put more stress on us because we had more to keep up with.
Brian: I wouldn't say I was overextended.
Julie: Mm-hmm. What are you saying then? 'cause you're [01:01:00] saying, look, if we wouldn't have had two houses, then what would've been different
Brian: if we wouldn't have had two houses?
Bethany: You said if we would've only had one house. I think that's what you said.
Brian: Yeah. So, I mean, if you have one house then and, and you know, the marriage dissolves then, then if you don't have enough money to, to. Absorb that, then what's your next step? You go to your parents' house or, or your grandparents' house or an apartment?
You know, I mean, I wasn't go, I wasn't gonna downgrade in life. I, my trajectory was, you know, constantly going up.
Julie: Mm-hmm. And what, what has been the cost of that? There's some, there's some upsides to it, but what has been the cost?
Brian: Um, definitely my happiness, you know.
Julie: Okay.[01:02:00]
And what do you mean by happiness? Do you mean peace, do you mean? Yeah, peace. Stressed. Okay.
Brian: Stress.
Julie: Okay. And so how has that shown up in this negative cycle between the two of you? If we just look at your part over here where some, for some good reason, you know, that we're really learning about and putting some words to, you had to learn to take it all on, you know, kind of have to keep up with this pace that doesn't really sound like it, it's been sustainable for you.
And the cost of that was some peace of mind and some happiness. And I, I'm curious how that all
impacted the relationship.
Brian: I mean, are we [01:03:00] reflecting internally for me, or are we projecting,
Julie: I'm talking maybe about the behaviors that came from this that weren't working on your end.
Brian: I mean, it's probably just the stress of it all. You know, just taking too much on, you know. It's like a lot of, so
Julie: stress is, is the problem, right? I mean there's, there's all the stress and chaos in our bodies.
I still don't know what you would say or do in these cycles because of the stress. There's layers to this, right? There's also things that she's doing to trigger this.
If we're gonna see Bethany's behaviors in these cycles that haven't been working, and if we wanna shift those, we also have to start shifting your behaviors. And I need to understand the link between some of those behaviors and the stress you were feeling. Like if you wouldn't have been so stressed, [01:04:00] is there anything you would've maybe done differently in the relationship?
Would you have had more space to help out? I don't know. In this way you're saying maybe I should have helped out. Would that have helped you help out more?
Brian: It, it, it would've, you know, if I didn't have so much on my plate, but
I don't, like, I couldn't predict that my grandmother was gonna pass away. I, I guess from her perspective, I didn't have to buy the house and spend four months working on it. But, you know, it was something I wanted to do. And, you know, you get these opportunities in life and at, at my age, like, I can, I can do them.
So I don't wanna miss that opportunity. 'cause I don't wanna look back at 50, 60, 80 and go, well, I, I should have done that, or I wish I would've done that, but it [01:05:00] just wasn't the right time.
And like with my business, it's always been like a be careful what you wish for. I can see how paralleled that it, that's how my childhood brought me to be this, you know, entrepreneur person is that you can like hunker down and take more on, you know, because as, as things grasp people depend on you more.
And I've, I've often said like, you know, as early as like maybe 10 years ago, that I always say yes to the people that don't matter. And I always say no to the people that do matter. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, I got that recognition of, you know, my behavior and, [01:06:00] you know, it was, I was ashamed of that a little bit.
Julie: What behavior I need to know that, what I'm really trying to narrow down here is. You know, there is some value to getting clear about your moves in the cycle that aren't working. 'cause what happens if we don't, what happens if we don't really get clear about how we can help you deal with your
feelings and in healthier ways?
Brian: It's a real catch 22 in my head because it's,
if I give into those fears and, and, and accept them and say it's okay to have, you know, one house or it's okay to, you know, have, like,
Julie: I still don't know what the downside is to the relationship of having two houses. [01:07:00] I haven't figured that out yet. I hear you saying, I, I, this did add some stress to the pl, to the plate and there was some things would've maybe been better had we not purchased two houses.
But I don't understand, 'cause I know it added more stress to you. I don't understand how the stress showed up in the relationship. I, I'm, I'm guessing that there's a few things here. One is maybe you wouldn't have blown up so much or got your nervous system wouldn't have gotten to that place of pressure.
Uh, maybe you would've been a little more open to helping, which would've minimized the fights. I mean, I think there's another part of you that comes in so fast that can't kind of hold your part of the problem. Because all these things come in, in your nervous system that [01:08:00] say, well, I was doing the best I can, or, well, I, even if I didn't do it right, she wouldn't have been there for me.
Or, well, you know, it's like in all, and there's, and there's truth to all that, but we're not kind of just sitting with for a bit your role here.
And then what happens is that then Bethany gets messages, well, he sees it as all my fault, and then that takes her to a bad place. And then, you know, so we gotta, we gotta do something different here. We gotta, we gotta really narrow
down your moves so we can fix that and help you not have to do that over and over.
Is it, is there a fear? Like, if I take some responsibility here, like, like more explicit responsibility, then that gets her off the hook?
Brian: How so?
Julie: Like if, like, if, if I'm, if I have some responsibility in the cycle, then she's [01:09:00] gonna just blame you. It's gonna be like, well see, I'm right. He's the bad guy over here. It's gonna make you the bad guy. It's gonna,
Brian: no, I mean, I'm not trying to deflect, you know, my many blame, I, I'll only accept about 50% of it, and that's mm-hmm. The most of it because, you know, that's,
Julie: I still don't understand what that 50% is though. I'm getting like kind of some global answers that yeah, there's 50%. I still don't know what that 50% is.
Brian: It's me, and it's me and her being whole. So if she's 50 and I'm 50, then we're one.
Julie: What are the behaviors that comprise that 50% that you would like to work on?
Brian: Ooh.
Maybe like. A, a short fuse.
Julie: Okay.
How has the short [01:10:00] fuse, what has the function of that short fuse been? Why is that short fuse? Why does your nervous system go back to it?
Brian: It's, it's probably stress and too many things to deal with.
Julie: Alright, there we go. So, what you're saying to me is really important. You're saying, you know, there, there's all these good reasons that you took on the stress, the timing was right with your grandma's house. Like you can't pass that up. You know, you have, your brain was wired around taking on a lot of stress.
'cause you had to, because if you didn't, your family life would've fallen apart as a kid and you wouldn't have been safe. Right? So there's all these really good reasons that you've taken on all this stress that at the same time. Two truths. You're also saying, and the stress has had a major impact on my internal world and my internal piece.
And so in this cycle, when you're just kind of walking around [01:11:00] chronically on the edge, failure is just right, right there. Right? It's just so close
at all times to everything kind of falling at the ho house of cards falling. Then what happens is, is when you get in these cycles, it's harder for you to kind of regulate and that
that fuse just gets short.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: So what would be different if you had a longer fuse?
Brian: I, I would have more patience.
Julie: Okay. And how would more patients maybe help you out here with Bethany?
Brian: I, I'm, I'm sure she'd be more receptive to it.
Julie: Okay. We need, and, and again, I need to work with her and make sure she is receptive to it, but we also have to [01:12:00] stick with, Hey, what's your part here? And you're saying, yeah, I can recognize there, there would be some value in a longer fuse. But, but I really, my, what's more important to me is why the short fuse has been there to begin with.
I wanna understand more about the short fuse, and I think I'm, I'm getting a clear picture, which is the short fuse has been a byproduct of the stress that has been my way of keeping my head above water my whole life.
Brian: Yeah. It, it,
Julie: okay. There's, there's something commendable in that. Right. There is something to be said for that. You, there's strength in that. It has kept you being successful. It's kept you taking care of your family. It's kept you taking care of your grandma's estate. It's kept you, you know, you and your brother safe in, in childhood and your mom.
There's, there's so much to be said for that.
Brian: [01:13:00] Yeah.
Julie: But if we're gonna look at the benefit, we also have to look at the downside. And the downside is, yeah, it has had an impact on your, your inner
peace. And then when you don't have inner peace, it's harder to show up as your best self in the relationship.
It doesn't mean your needs go away. Right. It just means it's harder to kind of figure out a way to U to u use vulnerability or use healthy assertion with those needs. And then it just, this short fuses, just reactivity.
Brian: It certainly is re uh, reactivity to. A lot of stuff, and
Julie: so I have to hop off here, but what I want you to tell Bethany is, you know, I have had to keep my body in a state of tr of stress my whole life.
I, I did have to learn that to keep my head above water and to take care of all these [01:14:00] things, but I can also, you know, see how that ended up really keeping me from having more peace of mind in my life.
Brian: Yeah, it's, it's definitely been, uh, a big, a, a lot to carry, but
that's just sort of how I've conditioned myself to be comfortable, but I realized that it's not making me peaceful.
Julie: Yeah. And how is it to put some words to that and let her in on that? Brian: Repetitive.
Julie: Well let me check in with her. Bethany, I'm assuming that you already know this information intellectually, right? Have you ever, have you guys ever hashed it out this explicitly?
Bethany: [01:15:00] I don't think this explicitly and, and so much is swirling in my head that I wanna respond to him in a, in a certain way.
Like whether it's outside of here or next week or whatever. But there's just one particular thing that's like sticking out in my head. What about buying that other business? But, um,
Julie: well, lemme ask it's how does to hear it this?
Bethany: It's good to hear it this way. Yeah, I was getting there. It's good to hear it this way and we haven't talked about it this explicitly, but I have known that this is how he functions.
I do recognize that the short fuse is a byproduct of, of all of that. Um, so I'm, I'm definitely curious to hear, hear more. And it is better to receive it this way than to be on the end of the short fuse. .
Julie: I was gonna, I was gonna say that exact phrase. And so how does it hit your heart emotionally?
Like, do you feel open to him? Do you feel empathic of that little boy [01:16:00] he once was, that had to learn how to do all of this?
Bethany: I've certainly felt empathic about his childhood for, for a long time. Um, to see it all come together definitely makes it more open instead of, you know, in those buckets of reactivity that, that tend to happen.
Um, I think that's probably about all I can say right this minute.
Julie: Okay. All right. Well. Um, okay, well, we'll, we'll pick back up on this. Um, you know what, what I'm trying to do again is I'm trying to organize the stress into the negative cycle so we can understand more about the negative cycle, what's fueling it.
Because what we're saying is, is two things. One, mitigating the stress can be super helpful for the two of you in your relationship. [01:17:00] And two, learning how to respond to the stress between the two of you and the way you communicate with each other in a healthier way. There's, there's a lot of value in that also.
We can't always make all the stress go away, but we can learn new ways to manage the stress and find, try to reach each other. Mm-hmm. Alright, I'll see you guys next week.
Brian: Okay. Thank you.
Julie: Alright, so let's take a deep breath with that one. Today was about. You know, connecting the past survival strategy to the present conflict.
You know, what we learned is that Brian learned very early on through his uncle's abandonment and his teacher's cruelty and his mother's crises, that if he didn't take care of everything, his world would collapse, and he learned to function, but in this very specific way through doing, fixing, taking charge.
These physical types of giving and these ways of giving do [01:18:00] have real value. They are ways to love and care, but they alone aren't enough to create an emotionally safe and close relationship. When he's preoccupied with work and achievement and financial stability, which is how he learned to find safety and manage the shame, we'll learn more about in upcoming sessions.
He's also abandoning other parts of life, like emotional presence and connection, and then he is stressing himself to the point that he actually becomes neglectful and verbally abusive. But then he's packaging all of this as quote unquote overgiving, when what it really is is imbalanced giving. It's not bad, it's not wrong, but seriously imbalanced, and the imbalance isn't working because again, it's fueling really awful behavior on his part, like getting resentful and lashing out.
But he doesn't wanna stay very long with the lashing out itself, and [01:19:00] he doesn't wanna stay with the pain underneath it. He doesn't trust that approach. He's much more comfortable in the why of what he does. His childhood, his perfectionism being hurt by Bethany. All of that matters, and we do need to understand it.
This therapy and growth in general doesn't work if we don't create understanding and validation. But we've done that work and the time has come to move past it. But we're stuck. And we're stuck because he still can't fully own his behaviors and stay with them long enough to explore them and learn new ways to deal with him.
But if he's going to learn to manage his pain better, he has to fully own that. He is not managing it well right now, but the story he keeps drifting back to. Again is change needs to happen. On Bethany's side, this is the really common other focus position of anxious attachment. His self focus, it's coming and going.
Right now it's better than it was, um, but every time he [01:20:00] leaves himself, he leaves his own unresolved grief and shame the kind which existed long before he even met Bethany and that self abandonment. That not only leaves those feelings alone and unhealed, it prevents him from actually doing the work to change.
So next week, I'm going to need to lay this out more explicitly by saying, you know, Hey Brian, we have to get you more fully owning your part. Or This, you know, isn't gonna go anywhere. It's not gonna work. And the good news is that between sessions, he was able to reflect on some of this on his own and get closer to it without my help.
And this is so important. In fact, the success of the therapy will hinge on his level of ownership of his side of the problem here. So for your homework this week, I want you to look at your own, quote unquote, bad behavior in the relationship. And how often do you allow yourself to really sit, and this is mine, without drifting back into the [01:21:00] why the pain exists, or how the pain is triggered.
And understanding those things is important. It's not sitting with the actual pain, namely the unresolved grief and shame that these behaviors, that your, your behaviors that we're, we're referring to here are trying to manage. And I think, again, this is going to get more clear, um, in our next couple of sessions with Brian.
Alright, well we'd love to hear your insights, so please send us a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com. And your story might be featured in a future episode. So thank you for doing this work with us. It's heavy, but as Brian showed us today, you know, it really can change everything for the people that we love.
So until next time, take care of yourself and your [01:22:00] relationships.

Trust & WoundsAttachment Styles

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 17: Understanding the Anxious Partner - The Path to Accountability (Pt. 1)

In this episode

Key takeaways

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Attachment Theory 101

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

Work 1:1 with a coach

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Session 18: Understanding the Anxious Partner - The Path to Accountability (Pt. 2)

Session 16: "Full Breathable Lungs": The Power of Vulnerability