Session 15: Healing the Wound of "Not Mattering"
In this episode
A sarcastic comment becomes a moment of repair as Bethany and Brian turn conflict into connection. Digging beneath the surface, Julie uncovers the childhood wound fueling Brian's sarcasm—a fear that his daughter is being 'dropped,' echoing his own history as a 'test drive kid' who felt easily replaced. The breakthrough lands when Bethany reveals she is fighting the same battle: convinced that she and their baby simply don't matter. Two people, both aching to feel significant.
Key takeaways
- Turning a sarcastic jab into repair shows a couple learning to interrupt their cycle.
- Sarcasm often masks a deeper attachment wound—here, the fear of being dropped or replaced.
- Childhood experiences of feeling replaceable resurface inside adult conflict.
- Partners frequently fight for the same need—significance—while fighting against each other.
- Naming the feeling underneath (to be heard, chosen, or to matter) is the first step to healing.
Keep going deeper
Hand-picked for this episode: Trust & Wounds
Understanding Shame
Trace where shame and mistrust come from — and learn, step by step, how to heal the wound underneath.
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Session 15: Healing the Wound of "Not Mattering"
Julie: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Secure Love Podcast. I'm your host, Julie Menanno. I'm a couples therapist and author of the book Secure Love. Before we jump into today's session, I wanna give you a little context. We had a session prior to this one that we aren't going to be airing in full because a lot of the work that we did with Bethany in that session was kind of repetitive as part of her avoidant reengagement process where she really gets better at accessing and sharing her emotions.
So we continued to address the financial. Infidelity around their wedding. And one of the things we talked about there is, you know, and even in the worst relationship in the world, so the worst relationship in the world can't make someone be dishonest. But it's also true that emotionally safe environments make honesty much, much more likely because dishonesty is a way that people try to manage [00:01:00] bad feelings.
And in this case, Bethany's bad feelings were rooted in not really knowing for sure if Brian would take her needs into account. And so that certainly didn't make her be dishonest, but it's, it didn't help her be honest. So I need to work, you know, always from both sides of the equation. Like what do we need to do to get Bethany in into a position with herself where she doesn't be on be dishonest just to avoid conflict And what do we need to do on Brian's end to help him create a safer relationship?
So her. Honest reaches are met with receptiveness and openness to just hearing her. So what was important about that session was for Bethany going forward to be able to reach to him. Not so, you know, he will do just exactly what she wanted, but to at least create a moment for him to slow down and send a message that he sees her and cares about [00:02:00] what she wants to, and then share his feelings about.
His ideas vulnerably and then they find a way to connect and work out a decision from there. So in today's session, we're going to celebrate the continued progress that Bethany and Brian are making here, and they're really learning to navigate their negative cycles faster. So we open with a, a text exchange where Brian makes this sarcastic comment, which is, I highly doubt you would've done your share.
Talking about his older daughter and instead of reacting defensively, Bethany was able to pause and then Brian was able to catch himself and make amends there. Um, but we don't just stop at the win. You know, we dig into the very
good reasons behind Brian's sarcasm and snarky comments. Um, why was he needing to do that in the service of how can we get him to get those needs met in a way that doesn't require sarcasm and [00:03:00] snarky comments?
And so what we'll find is that this reveals a deep wound around Bethany's treatment of his oldest daughter, um, specifically in a time when. He felt that she was separating the kids when they were sick. And of course, Bethany has, um, her own way of viewing this situation. But today we're gonna dive into more into Brian's side.
And this, you know, this situation for Brian was really especially triggering. Um, it wasn't just about the situation at hand, which is. So often not the case around these triggers, but this, this brought up a profound childhood memory for him being, you know, starting off to this uncle in his life as the golden boy.
Um, and his uncle took him to Disney World and we'll talk about this Disney World situation. And then, you know, what happened is that Brian ended up getting just dropped and replaced when his uncle [00:04:00] had his own child. And so on the other side, you know, Bethany feels like in this situation, she just fails no matter what she does, damned if she stays damned if she leaves.
Um, and in, when I say stay or leave, I'm talking about this, um, situation with their sick children specifically. Um, and at the core, you know, beneath the sarcasm and the defensiveness, both of them are aching the same. Painful feeling and the unmet need that leads to this feeling and that unmet need is, I just don't matter.
So before we dive into that, let's toss it to you, the listener, for a couple of your emails and voice notes from last week. So the first one comes from Ryan. So Ryan says, hi there. First of all, thank you for sharing your work with the world. I found so much meaning in reading your post and listening to your podcast.
Thank you for that, Ryan. Um, my question has to do with something I [00:05:00] haven't seen in a lot of your posts in Fidelity. My mother recently discovered that my father had been buying expensive gifts for female colleagues, which she considers cheating. What advice would you have for them, or in general, how is infidelity treated in the ft.
Thank you, Ryan. Okay, so first off, I just wanna say, Ryan, I'm really sorry that you and your family are going through this. Um, this is hard stuff and you know, I'm going to go ahead and use the word infidelity. I know some people
might not think that is the perfect word for this situation, but, um, it definitely is a situation where we have a competing attachment and dishonesty hiding things.
So this is not, this is not good. So what I'm going to do with that is I'm going to first start with, you know, what. What are the relationship conversations just around everyday things, um, looking like, you know, how are you guys communicating out of, [00:06:00] around less emo emotionally charged topics? Um, things like, uh, disagreements over, you know, who's going to vacuum the floor or disagreements over, are we going to go to that family event this weekend?
Um, and I'm gonna try to find out like, are, are we able to kind of, you know, hear each other and, and have emotional safety in the way that we're speaking to each other to begin with? Um, and then I'm gonna wanna know, okay, how is this situation with this, you know, infidelity that we're calling infidelity?
How is that. Coming in and making things even worse. Like, so we have the first layer, which is just the negative cycle around the little things. And then we have the second layer, which is how the wounds are creating, um, even more. Rupture in around these little moments. Now we have this added layer of fear and uncertainty.
Um, and so if I can kind of start to, in the session, get them [00:07:00] talking about all of this without, without fully diving into the details of the wound and trying to heal it. Um, and then get them just like leaning in and hearing each other and not getting defensive and, and communicating from a place of safety and health.
And so I, I would assume with that work, the safety will start to build between the two of them and they'll start being able to stay out of negative cycles. And at that point then we can have your mom start sharing more deeply about how she's been impacted by all of this and her hurts around this, and help your dad lean into that and be there for her and support her in that pain without, you know, going into his place of, well, I did this because I was hurt, or his own defensiveness.
Um, and even if he sees. Sees things a bit differently, he can still lean into her experience and show up for her there. Um, and then we will need to get more clear about what your mom's wound wounds around this are needing in order to heal. We wanna [00:08:00] heal this and what are her fears about the future that need to be healed?
What, what does she need to know about the future and his future behavior, um, is gonna change so she doesn't have to keep getting triggered with all of this stuff. And then we need to work on your dad's side to help understand, you know, what was going on with him. Um, what were some unresolved personal issues for him, that he was trying to get these needs met by having these outside relationships.
Um, and how can we set up the relationship to where he can start getting those needs met by himself and invite your mom in to help them with those. Hurts or whatever is there. Um, and then we have to explore the relationship environment, like what's going on the, in the relationship environment that is creating all these unmet needs.
So we bring more met needs and closeness and safety in. And the idea is, is that when we get the relationship really strong and healthy, [00:09:00] nobody's needing to give gifts to co female colleagues. Um, and again, I'm sorry that your parents are going through that, and I hope that that insight is somewhat helpful for you at least.
Um, all right. So thank you Ryan for that. Okay. And now we're going to go to a voice note from Kimberly.
Kimberly: Hi Julie. Thank you so much for this podcast, the sharing of this journey between Brittany and Brian. I just finished listening to episode 13 and there were definitely some real breakthroughs for both parties.
Around empathy and the capacity to listen first as a way to connect. But one question I have is regarding Brian's behavior. As someone who has personally experienced emotional abuse and unkind words from someone that I was very close to, I understand that words are something you can't take back and that they hurt terribly.
Do you ever address with Brian the [00:10:00] fact that verbal abuse is not okay ever? I get the fact that Britney is learning that this is maybe a coping mechanism for Brian, but I can't think of a single situation where demeaning someone or calling them terrible names is okay. So thanks so much for your thoughts on this topic.
Julie: Okay, Kimberly, well thank you for that comment slash question and I'll go ahead and address that, which is, you know, there's, there's two ways to, first of all, let me just say this, there, there is no space in a healthy relationship for, um, demeaning words. And, you know, of course. In healthy relationships.
Sometimes that can happen when people get triggered, but, um, it needs to be rare and we need to be able to make full repairs and we need to be able to, um, work on the underlying issue so that behavior doesn't keep happening. Um, so
the goal here is 100% to get rid of that [00:11:00] behavior. If we get to the end of this work and that's still happening, then this work isn't successful and the relationship will not be safe and close.
That's the consequence here. Um, what couples choose to do with their relationship that isn't safe and close is up to them. Um, but the consequences is there. And, um, so there's two different ways of approaching bad behavior, right? One way. Is to, um, say, Brian, this behavior's really bad. It's really awful. Um, and to say just what you said, Kimberly, which is, I can't see any situation where this is healthy, Brian, and just hope that Brian says to that, oh, okay, you know, you're right.
Actually, this is really bad behavior and I'm going to just go ahead and stop that. And if that works amazing, like then we, we have no other work to do. If he just really didn't know that that wasn't a useful thing, um, then we don't do, we just tell him and move on. Right. Well then there's this other way of approaching it, which is what I do, which [00:12:00] is getting to the root of it, figuring out what is going on in Brian that is so painful that he's trying to manage it by, you know, he's trying to communicate and get his needs met by saying these mean things.
Um, and what is, what do those feelings really need? What do we, they really need from him? How can he invite Bethany in to help them too? Um, so that he can do those feelings in a different way without having to go into those mean words. That's the goal. That's the goal as I wanna deal with the root problem.
How can we help the root of the problem? So the symptoms, which are the mean words stop happening. That's my goal. It isn't just about understanding why or what the root problem is and putting words to it and saying, Hey, I'm in a lot of pain and I dunno what else to do. We also have to add in that piece of, and what can you do differently?
What can your relationship do differently? So we can actually get [00:13:00] these needs met and actually address this pain. And we no longer have to go to mean words. And that's the goal here. I work in that way because that's the way that I have experienced this work being effective. I have not had a lot of success and just going in and telling people what they're doing wrong and the words that they need to use differently and leave it at that, it's, you know, it's, it's more of the emotional process.
It's more of the, um, nervous system work here. So that's why I do it the way I do it. But there are other therapies out there, and there are other podcasts out there, and there are other books out there that, that address these problems differently than the way I do. But this, this, um, podcast is, you know, it's, it's emotion-focused therapy.
It's not, it's not cognitive behavioral therapy, it's emotion-focused therapy. So I'm doing that emotional work here. All right. Well thank you for that, Kimberly. All right. And on that note, let's jump into session 15 with Bethany and Brian. You know, I noticed some things at our last [00:14:00] session, and, but before I jump into that, I wanna just touch base and see if anything happened that I should know about.
Any thoughts, any cycles? We've been,
Bethany: it's only been a couple days.
Brian: Yeah, I think we've been okay.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: We've, uh, almost attempted a couple ne negative cycles, but pulled right back out, so,
Julie: okay.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we were cognizant of, you know, what each other were saying and just tried to avoid it.
Julie: Were you able to kind of stay in there a little bit longer and maybe pivot so it didn't go down that ugly road?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Good. Um, do you wanna just kind of briefly tell me what happened? I like to celebrate what works that that's important. I always like to say if we're talk, if we're gonna talk about what's going wrong, we also [00:15:00] need to celebrate what's going right.
Brian: Uh, we were texting the other night about the demand of my daughter's schedule over the last year and Okay.
I said something like, you know, you got out at the right time, you know, sort of like jokingly and mm-hmm. She's like, well, I, I would've definitely done my share. You would've had to chip in. And, and, um, I said like, you know, I, I don't have much faith in that statement. And then I'd let it fester for like five minutes and I was like, why did I say that?
Like, that was really outta line and I just sort of. I realized that that would've started a negative cycle. So her recognizing it as well, she didn't respond. Um, and then I was able to, you know, realize myself and then sort of make those amends quickly and then wow, we sort of, you know, thanked each other [00:16:00] for acknowledging that and, you know, not flying off the handle on her, her end.
And, um, then it just, you know, went on peacefully. I thought,
Bethany: yeah, I caught myself from going into the details of, you know, justifying or the things that like, well, I have done this, I have done that, I have done that, I have done that. And I just said, I just chose not to respond. And I let it, I let it sit.
Julie: Okay, beautiful. And I'm guessing that Brian, that helped let that space kind of helped you do a little self-reflecting. Yeah.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: Right. Had she gone into that defensive mode that may have kind of helped you, not that it's your, it would be your fault, Bethany, but, um, that would be the cycle. Right. And we're usually reacting to the cycle.
So good work for both of you. Um, I'm really happy to hear that and I hope that you're able to take that in. 'cause that's huge. You know, it really is when we start to escape [00:17:00] them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It only, you know, you saw and got, I'm assuming, a felt experience of goodness instead of how bad it would've felt to just go into that dark place and then be stuck in there for who knows how long, right?
Brian: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Julie: So can we talk about the, you know, Brian, can we talk about the very good reason that you did say that? I'd like to just know more about what you were really trying to say. I mean, yeah, maybe, you know, that delivery isn't
gonna work, but those words had something really important to say, which is, what did you say?
I don't trust that
Brian: . Um, something along those lines. Like I, I just said, you know, I,
Bethany: I highly doubt that. I highly doubt that I think is what it was or something like that. Okay. Like, I highly doubt that you would've done your share. .
Julie: . So what is, what is that trying, what are you trying to say there? What's, what's the hope in that statement? [00:18:00]
Brian: Um, it was sort of like as we were going out the door, uh, um, Bethany's treatment towards, you know, my oldest daughter. And, um, it was just sort of a dig that, um. I don't know if I was triggered, but, you know, it definitely, it's definitely been on my mind. Like, you know, that that whole scenario between my daughter and her and their relationship and how it, you know, obviously, um, affects me, you know, being in the middle of those two scenarios.
But, um, uh, I, I realized that like, you know, it's, it's been a year where she hasn't had to deal with anything with her, so I don't really need to dig that past back up to, you know, sort of stab her with it.
Julie: So do you think there's some, you know, just some wounds around this that [00:19:00] maybe it would, there's some value in talking about that?
Brian: Um, sure.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: Yeah, I mean, I, I think it, you know, it's, it's definitely one of the bigger things, uh, as. The reason as to why we decided to separate.
Julie: So when did this, um, and Bethany just to kind of validate over here, um, I hope you don't perceive me as kind of picking on you, like, oh no, here we have another wound. Um, I just wanna understand why he's needing to say I highly doubt. So are you on board with me kind of understanding more about that?
Bethany: Yeah.
Yeah, I think so. As long as at, at some point, you know, I can share my truth to, to the whole thing too, I think, because I have a lot of wounds that surround that whole thing too. Yes, absolutely.
Julie: Okay, so Brian, um, tell [00:20:00] me when, you know, when can you think of a, an event that happened that kind of exemplifies this dynamic where you're over here going, oh my gosh, I don't like the way she's treating.
You know, your daughter.
Brian: While we were together, the one one that sticks out was, um, uh, my, my oldest daughter was, was at her mom's. And, uh, she had told us that she had got strep throat over the weekend. And we decided to sort of just let her stay with mom, be with mom for like a day. And then she would come back and then I think it was, she was gonna come back on a Monday, but ended up coming on a Tuesday.
And then our young daughter, uh, that Tuesday morning, Bethany took her in for a strep test and she was positive. And if you know [00:21:00] anything about it, it's usually like 24 hours. You're contagious and then not contagious. So, um, she's sort of like. Isolated them, like they were in like a COVID unit together almost.
But, and just like said, like, don't, don't look at her, don't touch her, don't interact with her, breathe on her, all this stuff. And, and I was like, that's so wrong, because they both have it. And whether the either one is contagious, they're not gonna give it to each other or back to each other. So I just, you know, I didn't understand, you know, for my daughter's sake why she had to feel like that.
Um, and, and I was pretty outraged and I, I spoke up about it. Um, and again, I got that sort of blank stare. .
Julie: What, what is the, you know, if we get to the heart of this, what is the, [00:22:00] you know, how did this become a relationship issue? Like what message are you getting from Bethany that. Didn't feel right for you?
Like, it's not fair. I'm not, you know, I don't, I don't know. There,
Brian: it was like segregation. Um, there was a lot of like, it felt like our house was split. Um, like I felt before our youngest daughter came along. They had a really great relationship. Okay. It was, it was Bethany's only chance at that point to be a mom.
And then Okay. When, when our daughter came along, it was like my daughter became like, you know, just thrown to the side and it was like, she was like a stepdaughter and not really part of the family.
Julie: Okay. So in this period of time, your, you know, your little daughter's born and. It just starts to build, [00:23:00] right?
It start, you start observing these things that are leaving you feeling like your daughter is on the outs.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And it just builds and builds and builds, right?
Brian: Yes.
Julie: Okay. And what was, what is it like, just to put words to that right now, do any of those feelings come up right now? Like, what was it, was this about like seeing your daughter suffer or,
Brian: um, I felt used for myself.
Um, I felt it for my daughter. I, I felt betrayed, like somewhat like, lied to. Like, it's, it's sort of hard. It's a, it's a lot of emotions at once.
Julie: Well, let's talk about betrayed. Usually when there's some really big wounds, you know, betrayal is a very common theme. What, what did she [00:24:00] betray your, your trust in her with your relationship?
I mean, with her relationship with your daughter, like your daughter's emotional care. What was betrayed?
Brian: My, my daughter's daughter's emotional care was betrayed. Um, I think she sort of went off and had like her own set of feelings that she couldn't probably articulate at the time based on her age. 'cause I think she sort of like, looked up to Bethany and in a different way than her own mother.
And when she was getting all these signals that, that, that, you know, she wasn't good enough or, um. You know, wasn't going, you know, wasn't her stepdaughter anymore, so to speak.
Julie: So she got dropped.
Brian: Yeah. She like moved down a rank, you know, or two. Yeah. [00:25:00]
Julie: Yeah. When have you felt like that in your life where you moved down a rank?
Brian: Um, I felt that way in doing some self work. The other night I realized this as a little kid. Uh, I was, I was like the, the golden boy of the family. 'cause I was, you know, the o the oldest and my uncle was sort of using me, uh, to sort of acclimate him and his new wife into like, the possibility of having a kid and what that would be like and how fun it was.
Until they actually had a child. And then I was sort of dropped as like, this is our, our new golden boy. So I could understand those feelings for her.
Julie: You were replaced, you had this experience.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: How old were you when they had the [00:26:00] child? Brian: I wanna say like maybe sixth.
Julie: Okay. So you were old enough to, to see it and feel it happen?
Brian: Yeah. I, I remember being a, a young boy and they took me to Disney World.
Bethany: Sorry. There's like a, like a family joke around the Disney world. I was wondering if this was leading to Disney World.
Brian: Yeah. I've, I've had to bear this cross for 39 years.
Julie: Okay. Let's hear it
Brian: in any kind of, in any kind of adversity between my uncle and I. I've had to get it thrown in my face that he took me to Disney World and I just feel like I should just get out my checkbook right now and Okay.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: And pay
him back at this point, because I've heard it so many times where it's just like, if you wanted to do something nice for me, [00:27:00] great. But I, I didn't realize I was signing a contract at three years old that, you know, I had, uh,
Bethany: I'm not laughing at the, at the magnitude of this. I'm laughing at the, the family, the family joke of like making, you know, paying back a, a trip to Disney World.
That was a, a gift That truly has been an ongoing joke forever.
Julie: Thank God. We can laugh about the family lore on top of having the pain, right?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: What would it be like if we couldn't sometimes just stand back and laugh?
Brian: Yeah. ,
Julie: But you know, underneath that, like that has been the cross to bear. Brian: Yeah.
Yeah.
Julie: Like what's
the message you get around that? I mean, your whole life you've been paying back this debt that you didn't ask to, to do, to take on.
Brian: It's taken on many forms through the years. Like, you know, I probably, the first time that I heard it, it just was shock that like, somebody kept tabs on that for so long.[00:28:00]
Um, and, and even up to like settling my grandmother's estate, I had to hear about, you know, how he took me to Disney World. And, and I just at that point, like, I've just let it go. I just, I can't, I can't go back there. Um, but I did make jokes that when I settled the estate, that if he was to get anything out of it, it was going to be that check with interest from 1986 until.
Whatever interests, you know, over the years, so we could just put it to bed. We don't need to go off on a tangent on Disney World, but,
Julie: okay. Julie here. So I wanna pause here because this is really the heartbeat of this episode. So we often look at a partner's sarcastic or aggressive comments like Brian's saying, well, I highly doubt that, and we just see them as mean, and they are mean, you know, but, but [00:29:00] here we're seeing the source.
Brian isn't just fighting with Bethany about germs or quarantine. He is fighting for the little boy inside of him who felt like a test drive kid. He was dropped and replaced by the adults who were supposed to love him. And when he sees his daughter potentially being treated in the same way, his nervous system goes into code red.
His protest isn't about the dishes or the schedule, it's his body's attempt to manage feelings he didn't have words for and to stop history from repeating itself. And of course, that way doesn't work, which is why we are here learning new things to do with these old feelings. What's, you know, what's standing out for me is that this was obviously someone who was kind of like a father figure to you.
Yeah. I mean, I'm guessing that you really felt special. You felt like the golden child and then all of a sudden, you know, just kind of like what you're observing [00:30:00] happening with your daughter. You just kind of get dropped and replaced. There was no more Disney World after that, I'm assuming?
Brian: No, no. You know, there was no dirt bike rides or puppies or anything, you know, going to breakfast.
It was, it was just, you're my nephew.
Julie: What do you think
that was like for you as a child? Like, just as you, you know, put words to this right now? What comes up,
Brian: I guess I probably felt betrayed back then too. Like I was used, um, you know, I was a pawn, you know, like it made it seem like everything that we experienced together was sort of fake.
You know? I was, I was just a test drive kid. I wasn't, uh, the real thing to him.
Julie: So if I'm walking in your shoes, that I can just imagine how hard and painful that was for you.
Brian: It was hard to articulate back then. Um, but yeah, I just, I felt dropped. I felt used, you know, I, I was replaced. I[00:31:00]
Julie: Did you have anywhere to go? Um, anyone to kind of help you talk about that or work through that? Or were you just kind of alone with it?
Brian: I think I was pretty much alone with it.
Julie: Alright. And then, so what is it like now to just see your daughter? You know, I know it's not as straightforward for you, Bethany, but what's it like now to get it, see her be dropped just like you are, you know, that feeling,
Brian: it's painful to, to see, you know, her, go through that, you know, 'cause I, I understand those feelings even if she can't tell me them.
'cause I think one of, in our very early sessions, early, I, I've said I felt like I live my life through a lens of my kids. Or as they grow older, I can understand those feelings because I've, you know, it's sort of deja vu for me. And, um, and also the role [00:32:00] of like my parents or adults in my life as I've become an adult.
Julie: Yeah,
Brian: I have like those same experiences.
Julie: And who protected you? Who came in and fought for you when you were
Brian: My, my grandparents were there. Um, in my adult life, my, my brother protected me a lot.
Julie: Did they go and I'm, I'm just kind of speaking specifically around this event. Did they go to your uncle and say, Hey, we, you know, he, this is a kid, he has a tender heart, just kind of be careful here, or can you, you know, kind of see what he might be feeling, maybe invite him over a little bit more, get him involved?
I mean, did anybody stand up for that for you?
Brian: No. Um, because, you know, my uncle was at the crux of like, almost every family battle. And if you stood, if you stood up to him to tell him his [00:33:00] faults, um, you know, he would just make a, a bigger mess of the issues. And uh, and then, you know, most of the time it would end in everybody retreating from each other, you know, and that was.
It's been a lot of my family structure along the years is just fights ex escalate, relationships get broken up, divorce happens. Um, people don't talk to each other for decades. It's, it's always walking on eggshells. Um, so it's been tough.
Julie: There's
a lot of, you know, we can, we can easily make sense of kind of like why that didn't happen.
It makes sense. Nobody knew how to talk about it. Your family didn't have the skills to do that. ,
Brian: No.
Julie: But
at the same time, you were still impacted by that, right? You were impacted by this experience that we hope that kids don't have to feel dropped. It's pretty psychologically damaging to kids, right?[00:34:00]
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Then on top of that, you didn't really have anyone to go to for comfort. Then on top of that, no one was really able to go to the adult in the situation and
say, Hey, can you just kind of be aware of this? You're not doing anything wrong, but
Brian: yeah.
Julie: You know, nobody protected you. So it shows your resilience that you do go in and wanna protect your daughter.
I mean, that's what love is, right? It's empathy for what we know is a painful place to be.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And what do you think, do you think that little boy that you were maybe did somewhere in there, want some protection, want to not wanted the adults in your life to help you not have to sit there with that?
Brian: Absolutely.
Yeah. I, I've needed, I've needed someone to help me in a lot of areas, uh, of life, you know, whether I was a little boy or an adult, and I just, I've just sort of had to figure it out on [00:35:00] my own.
Julie: Yeah, so we're here right now, you know, talking about this, and my guess is, is that Bethany's really open to this. Again, Bethany, I know you see some things differently here, but we can also, you know, look at it through your eyes and understand more about
what this tapped into in you. And, and nobody wants to see their child suffer and be impacted by that. So it makes a lot of sense to me that you feel protective of her heart. And do you think there's a part of you that maybe kind of longed for, you know, Bethany to see that too and help you with that protection?
Brian: Yeah, I, I definitely did.
Julie: You didn't? Maybe know how to, how to ask for that or say that, and then when you did, you guys would somehow go into these [00:36:00] negative cycles. But yeah. How did you, how did you try to reach her around that? Is that when you show the pain by, go ahead.
Brian: I, I
stood up for her, you know, I, I, I, I explained it to her like, you know, they're both sick, you know what I mean?
You can't isolate one versus the other. And, um, and act like, you know, she's a leper when she's not, you know, they, they can be sick together, you know, we're a family. It's if it, if they're, if they have it, there's a chance we could get it, you know, then we're all sick together,
Julie: so, so you go in to trying to kind of convince her, okay, got you.
Gotta kind of see this situation differently. But I'm just wondering when you kind of talk to her about. Some of the deeper meanings here and some of your deeper feelings around this that, you know, I did experience a lot of pain. I felt really kind of betrayed and dropped in my life, and I, I do [00:37:00] wanna protect her from that.
Is there any way we could work together on this?
Brian: I don't think I approached it like that. Um,
Julie: well, nobody ever taught you how, right?
Brian: No. It wasn't until after our session Monday when you recommended some self-work and I, I just sort of relaxed and started thinking of past traumas and like when I, we, we had discussed afterwards of like, you know, like when, when you like got punched in the ribs, like at what, what point did that, like that blow, like, affect you?
Like, did it break or? I, I tried to go back to that spot, you know, in my head of like, when this. Started happening for me. And, and that was, you know, aside from like my parents divorcing at two years old, I, I remembered it just came right outta me. I don't know, I [00:38:00] don't think about it on a daily basis, but it was the second thing I wrote down on the list and I, I was very surprised that that came out of me.
Julie: Wow. I wanna, I wanna know more about that, but I wanna kind of keep our focus here, just kind of around this one event, which is the pain that you feel for your daughter that you've been feeling for four, four years. Three and a half years, right? Yeah. Since your little one was born. Yep. Um, and not only is it hard to see her hurt just because you love her, nobody wants to see their daughter hurt, but then it taps into this stuff.
You've been there, your body's been there. And nobody ever protected you from that.
Brian: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And so you were trying so hard to reach Bethany and to kind of get her help with this place, but you just [00:39:00] didn't know how to reach her. And so the way you're trying to reach her is that's when you kind of go into that protest place, right?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: That's when those comments come out that are like, um, let me look here. I highly doubt it. What is that highly, what are you trying to get? What are you trying to say? Is that how you're trying to, to get her help and tell her how much it hurts? And
Brian: it's probably coming from
my pain and it's
Julie: definitely is coming from your pain. And is that how you try to get her to see if she can just see, is that how you try to get her to bring attention to the problem? So she'll do it differently?
Brian: I think so.
Julie: Yeah, because what if you can get her to see, oh my God, this is hurting so much.
Every time I get this information comes my way, [00:40:00] every time something comes along that takes me back to that place of my daughter's getting betrayed and I've been there. And your nervous system just gets all outta whack, right?
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: You're trying to get her to see that
because what if she can see it,
Brian: then maybe she can feel it. And if she could feel it, then she could consciously change her behavior and be more empathetic to those, those feelings.
Julie: And then she'll change, and then we won't have to keep going back to the same trigger over and over.
Brian: Yes.
Julie: It makes a lot of sense to me. You know what, and, and you know, the way that this is being communicated, it definitely isn't working. We we're doing this work so we can shift away [00:41:00] from that, but before we shift away from it, we gotta understand the function of it so we can replace it with something new.
But you haven't known a replacement because nobody ever taught you. Brian: No.
Julie: So she just, she just hears it as I'm just randomly being picked on or whatever.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: And so I wanna right now try to just let her in on a little bit more here. That it isn't just you randomly trying to pick on her. It's trying that, that anger and that frustration and those, you know, kind of either overtly aggressive or passive aggressive comments, that's how you've been trying.
To communicate all this hurt around this?
Brian: Yes.
Julie: Can you just share that with her?
Brian: I think my approach to trying to regulate your treatment to our daughter, um, this come from past,
Julie: so I wanna, I'm
gonna pull you, I'm gonna pull you back here. I wanna [00:42:00] keep you in a place where you're really focused on you.
Right. It's, it's nuanced, but that's what I'm here for, is I wanna move away from your treatment of our daughter into my pain.
That this is a very painful place that I go, that I hurt for her. My body goes back to a place where I hurt that same way in the past, and I didn't have anybody to help me. And, and these comments have been my way of trying to get some help around this, that I've been longing for my whole life.
I know that's a lot. Just see how you can do and I'll pull you out if, and, and it really matters because it's gonna impact her openness if she just hears that as more blame. It's not, she's, her nervous system's gonna be at risk for shutting down.
Brian: Everything you just said is like something my grandmother would've said to me.
Julie: Aw,
Brian: seriously. [00:43:00] It was like,
Julie: that's so touching.
Brian: Just per just perfect. Like how, like you just touched on every one of those feelings that like, I've been longing for this in my, in, in my own life. Like to, you know, be acknowledged of, of how painful that was. And when I, I see it happening to somebody else, I go there.
Julie: Yeah. And how is it to. Put words to that.
Brian: It almost chokes me up.
Julie: Yeah. I feel choked up.
Brian: Yeah. Like I can feel my, my throat wanting to crack and my lungs wanting to quiver, you know?
Julie: So let's just, let's just hold there for a minute and give some space to that. I don't know if it's a sad, I don't know if it's a touched,
let's just sit with it.[00:44:00]
Bethany, what's coming up for you as he shares?
Bethany: It's softening. It's softening. I knew, I knew that there was pain there from, from childhood. I, I, I don't think I knew to what capacity or, or what, what level or, or how painful. Um, especially not, you know, going all the way back to, to your, your uncle. So I appreciate you sharing that with me.
I don't want you to feel that pain. I don't want you to have to go back there. Julie: You're doing a great job, Brian.
You're doing some really good work here. You wanna kind of shift, shift over here, Bethany? Um, you know, just to kind of summarize though, before we go shift gears is that, you know, in this, [00:45:00] these cycles that you get stuck in, this is what you've been trying to get through the whole time. And you just did, you didn't know how.
And so the only thing you knew to do was just try to get her attention, try to bring some attention to the problem, but somehow that, you know, I wanna understand more about the message that she's getting. 'cause she's not, she's not really seeing all the pain under there. And so, Bethany, I, I wanna just maybe understand, you know, what message you do get when it's delivered to you.
In this other way, I'm wondering if what, what pain does that trigger in you? 'cause you, your pain makes sense too, right? Yeah. Um, Brian, are you okay with that? Am I moving away from you too quickly?
Bethany: No, that's what I was, I was thinking in my head like, it, my, my heart hurts for your
pain that you had.
Julie: And so wouldn't it be nice if we can just really sit here and hold [00:46:00] all the pain at once?
That it all matters. It's all real. It doesn't have, there's no zero sum game here. It doesn't have to cancel each other out. The, the enemy, this whole time has been the negative cycle, the, the way we're trying to reach each other with all this stuff.
And so Bethany, I wanna talk more about what you haven't been able to say around this, because you're used to just, when he, when he brings this stuff up, you're just used to getting defensive and kind of trying to explain what is that trying to say? Let's talk about what that's trying to say.
Bethany: I mean, if we're, if we're talking about that, like that specific instance of, you know, the, the strep throat thing, like, for me it goes back deeper than that with, like, [00:47:00] since our, our baby was born, where we have blended families, sickness typically comes in from the other family.
Um, and so like for me, it, it just becomes more, more work like. I'm the one who will have to take care of the baby. I'm the one who will have to miss work. I'm the one who will have to stay home with two kids. And then there's the chance that, you know, I get sick too, which means I have to stay home longer or, and it just becomes more work.
And, and there was, there's pain around that too because pre, I mean, there was a point where we all had flu A, um, we all had, you know, the stomach bug. And it's just like, if I could prevent that from happening, it would be because it's one thing to be sick, like, and I, and I'm focusing on the sickness and not the feelings.
I get it, but it's all of this stuff coming up where it's like, I'm the one who has to deal with all of it. [00:48:00] And in the past he has said, you know, take your baby and go, if you're sick, just get outta here if you're sick. So like, then I'm feeling like we have to exit our baby and me, because he doesn't wanna deal with the crying all night because she doesn't feel good or.
Of that. So it, it's not just around that. It's like I'm trying to, to essentially build a wall to, to keep healthy so that we can continue on with our normal daily routines. Not have to feel like we have to exit or go get a hotel or go stay at my parents because our baby has a fever for 10 days. 'cause she has hand, foot and mouth and she's crying all night long or she's throwing up and like, it, it's not just that it's, I I, I was trying to create less of a burden on me, I guess, and, and keep peace in the house because when the baby was sick, there was no peace in the house.
That's where [00:49:00] all of this stems from for me.
Julie: Okay. So for you, you're saying, look, I I was never trying to leave anyone out. I, I'm just scrambling around trying to keep it all together. 'cause
what happens if it all starts to fall apart? I don't. What happens if everybody's sick and then you're sick? I mean, it sounds like that's like the end game here.
That's where your nervous system goes, is to this bad place where it's chaos. And am I right about that? Is that kind of
Bethany: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's chaos, somewhat chaos. And then it's like that, it all comes back on me because she's little and I can only give so much, you know, I can't give all of my attention to everybody, and she takes more of my time.
And so then it flips to the, this flips the script of like, I'm neglecting him, I'm neglecting the other one. And I can only, you know, I'm blamed for only giving my full attention to, to the baby. And then I'm sure you know what it's like to be sick and try to take care of a sick baby all at the same [00:50:00] time.
So then there's no reprieve for me. And I just remember, I remember one instance where we were both sick and nobody was sleeping because the baby was up crying and he's yelling about, you know, we're not sleeping 'cause she's crying all night. And I'm like, where's no one's here asking me? No one's here thinking about the fact that like, not only am I sick, but I'm also up all night.
Like I'm not sleeping either and I'm the sick one too. There's no space for that. Okay. And I'm getting heated because I, I specifically remember like the three of us,
Julie: what's the heat saying? Is
that the anger?
Bethany: Yeah, it's the anger. And I remember the three of us, US two and the older one in our bedroom saying, no one is thinking about me.
The fact that like, I know you're, you are healthy, you're not sleeping, you are healthy, you're not sleeping because the baby's up crying. But I am not healthy. I haven't felt good and I haven't slept in days either. [00:51:00] And, and we have the little one who can't do anything for herself 'cause she's little and I'm missing worse.
Julie: 'cause you're physic, you're physically tapped,
right? Yeah. You're physically trapped and then you're not getting any help. You're alone with it all. You, you know, for you it's like all the burden is on your shoulders. You don't have a whole lot to give.
Bethany: Right. And then when I don't have a whole lot to give, then I'm blamed for not giving any, you know, then I'm, then it's flipped to like, you only care about her.
That's all you care about.
Julie: So it sounds like in, you know, in this big picture, it's like you're gonna end up failing no matter what you do. .
Bethany: And it's hurtful to like, to feel like I have to leave my own house to keep the peace because the baby is sick. Like, who does, like, who asks for that? But I think that that's where like my anger comes up too.
Okay. So
who does that?
Julie: I wanna know what is, what that is like for you? When here you are, you're, you're hanging [00:52:00] by a thread. You don't want these bad things to happen. You know, you have your limits. You don't wanna go to that place where I'm failing everybody. I'm not being able to take care of everyone.
You're miserable. You can't take care of yourself. Nobody's taking care of you. And then you hear this message, you need to go. Okay, so what comes up? Just as you, you know, as we talk about that and we put some words to that,
Bethany: it's just,
that's like, it's, it's anger. It's um, anger at what
I think lack of. Consideration or, or recognizing, um, anger about not having help in that situation. [00:53:00]
Julie: So you're angry because you're not getting the help that you need. And anybody gets angry when they don't feel like they're getting help.
Bethany: I mean, and it's just a normal thing. Right? Right. And I will say that I'm sure if there was help offered, I don't know if I would've taken it because that's how I how I am.
But it would've been nice to know or to hear, I know this is hard. It's hard for you. You don't feel good. She doesn't feel good. You know, maybe what can we do? ,
Julie: So what's the message in that, that would've helped you feel more safe around this? Um,
Bethany: the message in. Understanding, I think. Or care.
Julie: Care. Okay.
So, so you're saying, look, maybe I would've taken the help. Maybe I would've been that desperate enough. Maybe not. But what you're really needing to know is that you're being cared for, that your [00:54:00] needs matter here. That's really what you're needing to know.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so then the pain place for you is when you don't feel like you're being cared for,
Bethany: that that's where that, in that, in, in that situation, yes. Because there were things that he did. I know that, that, that cared for us as a whole. I get that. But in that situation, there were always, always, always huge negative cycles. Now that we know the, the name for them around sickness with the baby or
the kids,
Julie: everybody's compromised.
Nobody's getting sleep. Everybody's worried about their, you know, the kids. Everything kind, you know, we need, when there's a lot on your plate, it kind of, you need for things to be going smoothly. When anything comes along and disrupts it can really throw everything off.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Right. So everybody's getting dysregulated.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And you're saying, look, I, I [00:55:00] understand intellectually that there's a lot going on that is supportive in the big picture, but still in this moment you kept circling around these sicknesses. You keep circling back to this place where you just don't really feel supported and then that takes you to, do my needs even matter here?
Am I even being cared for? Right. Okay. And just as you say, you know, uncared for what, what comes up?
What is that like for you to not feel cared for?
Bethany: I put a lot of these feelings back. Like in, in terms of the baby at the time. So I think like there was so much prior to her where I cared for his daughter in so, so many ways. Because I met her when she was three. Like, so when [00:56:00] she was sick, I cared for her. Um, or I would stay home with her or whatever.
And I, you know, we were never asked to leave when she was sick, or I never asked those two to leave when she was sick.
Julie: Okay. So, again, you know, sorry, I have to kind of sew this up. Yeah. Because I know I have to stop a little early. But, you know, just to kind of bring us back here again, the message is however we get there, what about my needs here?
Right. I, I'm not, I'm over here not feeling like I'm getting. Messages that my needs matter and I'm being cared for too. However, we get there and then that doesn't feel fair because you're saying I gave and gave. And gave. Yeah. And
then we go back to the same place, which is if it's unfair, my needs don't matter here.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Yeah. So it's sad. It's just sadness. Okay. And then help me understand a little bit more about sad. Is it like a [00:57:00] defeated feeling? Is it like a, a demoralized? Is it a
Bethany: just feel like you don't, you just don't matter.
Julie: Okay. There we go. So,
Bethany: or the baby
didn't matter. Okay. So
Julie: it's like, I don't, we don't even matter.
Is that the worst place for you to feel that you don't matter and, and not your baby? Doesn't matter either. Right. You don't want her to feel that way, you don't wanna feel that way.
Bethany: It's more attached to her. So it's the worst place for me is to think that she doesn't matter. .
Julie: So this is where you come in and feel protective of that? Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Yeah.
Have you felt that before? When have you, when have, is your body known? Not, not knowing if you matter?
Um,[00:58:00]
Bethany: gosh, I don't,
I don't, I don't know.
Julie: Okay. Well, you know what it feels like to matter. Yeah. So you can just as we can assume that the, your body know, must know about the other side of that coin, which is to not matter.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: You just know, we just know we need for our children to feel like they're delighted and invaluable and matter. And somehow in these cycles, you're, the messages aren't coming across that that's happening. And then that takes you to a painful place and you're not really talking about the pain, but it's there.
And so how, how are you trying to regulate it? What's your behavior in the cycle? That's,
Bethany: [00:59:00] um, I, I think in some of those it was trying to defend or explain or try to make him see that it's unreasonable to ask a. 1-year-old or six month old and her mom to go away and stay for three days because, you know, she doesn't feel good.
It's a lot harder to pack up. So you're just kind of like, what happens I always do is like, help him try to help him to understand through,
Julie: . Right. So you start just trying to like stay, stay in the trigger, stay in the trigger, protest the trigger protest, whatever his reasoning is, let him know how unreasonable he's being.
Right, right. And then underneath that is still, you know, the, the pain of, you know, there's layers there. Right there. You're [01:00:00] telling me a lot of stuff. You're saying look at, you know, the bottom of the barrel is a lot of pain around seeing my daughter suffer and how that might impact her and. My own feelings of not mattering.
And there's, I'm sure fear around that Now you're vulnerable, you have a baby, and now you have to worry about what's the future gonna look like when I can't keep it all together. But you don't know how to communicate about that part. And, and you guys don't know to how to hold each other's vulnerability anyway.
So then you go into protest and you start tell telling him why he is seeing it all wrong. And then do you see, you just get stuck there? Yeah, we definitely get stuck.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So I just, I just wanna see, you know, if you can maybe just tell Brian A. Little bit more about what was happening for you, [01:01:00] you know, that it wasn't just you trying to, you're not trying to invalidate him, you're not trying to
drop him, you're not trying to just kind of randomly close yourself off. You're just over here trying to mitigate your pain too, that you guys don't know how to help each other with.
Can you just share that with him? I wanna see what happens here.
Bethany: I was never trying to, to shut you off or shut you out, or not give you validation for, for what you would. Spring to me. I was trying to mitigate my own pain around those situations.
Julie: Okay, Julie, here again, and this is really the tragedy of the negative cycle in its purest form, Brian is screaming My daughter, and I don't matter to you, and Bethany is screaming back my baby and I don't matter to you.
And they're standing in the exact same pain, the pain of feeling insignificant and [01:02:00] uncared for, but their protective moves are convincing the other person of the opposite. So Bethany retreats to survive the chaos. Brian just reads as coldness, and then Brian protests to get heard, which Bethany reads as criticism.
And they're both fighting for their existence in the relationship, but they're fighting against each other instead of for each other. So if we're gonna change these cycles and we're gonna get them out of these moves of mean words and coldness and protests and criticisms, um, we are gonna have to keep fighting, helping them fight for each other instead of against each other.
And they are, they're, they're, they're getting there. They're do, they're starting to do it. And just to point out here, this is one of those situations where the burden of things like. Sick children is usually on the mom. This is a situation where many of you are probably thinking, you know, this isn't fair to Bethany at all.
And in [01:03:00] struggling relationships there's lots of un feelings of unfairness and there are often many situations that to anyone we'd be considered objectively unfair. And of course, a relationship can't work if we don't have an overall sense of fairness. And there are different ways to approach unfairness from a therapeutic standpoint.
And you know, the EFT way and the way the work I do to approach unfairness is to create emotional health and success and vulnerability. And the assumption is that when we eat, when you know when each partner is emotionally healthier
and the relationship is emotionally healthier, and they can reach to each other with vulnerability.
Fear decreases and openness and empathy increase. And the goodness of that connection starts to cause these surface problems to work themselves out naturally.
Bethany: It felt like I didn't matter, but I, I think and, and thinking back, like the feeling of not [01:04:00] mattering, I think started for me like from you, like not long after she was born.
Julie: Okay. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna pause this here. I think there's, I think if I could go back, I probably would've tried to get to know a little bit more about the pain and not mattering. Not mattering. I don't know how much, how open he is gonna be to that, because there's still a little bit of like, here's what you were doing wrong in there.
Right. And so I wanna just, as next time we meet, I wanna get into a little bit more of that pain around not mattering. But let me check in with you, Brian, over, you know, I are, are you, are you somewhat open to this? Is this making
some sense to you that we both get stuck in this pain and we don't, we haven't known how to help each other and come together on that, and so then we both go into these protective places.
Brian: Yeah,
it's a vicious cycle. [01:05:00]
Julie: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I just want you to tell her I get it. I, I, I can relate to it. I get it. I see that we've both been struggling here.
Brian: I I definitely see, you know, through the, through this work that we, we keep making the same mistake in just different scenarios.
Julie: Okay, and won't it be nice when you guys don't have to keep going back to the replaying the same tape over and over.
Alright, well, what a powerful example of how these past scripts that we carry around our whole lives get rewritten or replayed. You know, the, in our present day relationship problems, and today we saw the anatomy of a trigger. Brian's
sarcasm wasn't just him being mean randomly being mean. It, it was a protective move fueled by this little boy inside him who felt dropped and replaced by his uncle.
And there's pain there for him, a pain he doesn't spend a lot of time sitting with and, [01:06:00] and putting words to and, and understanding. And that pain turns into fear of more pain, of more of that feeling in life. When people have felt pain, they're gonna do anything to not go back to that place. It's not conscious.
I just wanna keep putting that out there. This is, none of this is happening, happening consciously. My job is to make the unconscious conscious by slowing all of this down. And so he has this pain and then his pain turns into a
fear of more of it. And on top of that, a fear of his daughter hurting in the same way that his body knows.
And then his body with all of this, his nervous system escalates into anger. And that anger tells him to fight tooth and nail to make sure his daughter never feels like this test drive kid that he felt like. And in the situation that they described when they came into this session, when this came up, um, you know, he was able [01:07:00] to, to do more self-reflecting around this after he initially made that, you know, aggressive comment about, of course you would, you know, um, be, you know, Bethany was able to kind of not go into her place and that created some space and instead of him doubling down and saying, well, I'm just, just justified in making that comment because of how hurt I've been.
Um, instead he went back in and he repaired and that was new for him. So it is, you know, the safety is. Building, you know, he is, he is as we do this work with his vulnerability. Um, and Bethany, you know, the safety is building. Alright, so
for your homework this week, I want you to think about a recurring fight that you have in your relationship.
And what do you think the deep childhood wound, if there is one that might be getting triggered in this situation. Are you fighting to be heard? Are you fighting to be chosen or to matter? So see if you can identify some of these feelings and unmet [01:08:00] needs that are going on underneath these fights. We'd love to hear what you discover, so please just send us a voice note or an email to support@thesecurerelationship.com.
And of course, your story might be featured in a future episode. So thank you for joining me today. This is the hard work of seeing the wounded child inside of your partner and inside of yourself instead of just the frustrated adult. So until next time, take care of yourself and your relationships.
