Session 14: Moving Towards a Positive Cycle

Dec 9

In this episode

Bethany and Brian report a genuine breakthrough: for the first time in weeks, they navigate a conflict without spiraling into a negative cycle. Julie guides Brian through somatic work to help his nervous system install the felt sense of peace, then turns to the shame Bethany carries around her financial infidelity. When her vulnerability is met with validation instead of anger, the couple begins building a lasting positive cycle rooted in emotional safety.

Key takeaways

Successfully navigating one conflict without spiraling proves a new pattern is possible.
Naming your intent before you react lets a partner hear you instead of defending.
Somatic work helps the nervous system 'install' and remember moments of felt safety.
Hidden shame—like financial infidelity—drives concealment; validation, not anger, dissolves it.
A positive cycle is built by repeatedly meeting vulnerability with connection.

Session 14: Moving Towards the Positive Cycle Bethany: [00:00:00] Yeah. Okay. The hardest time unmuting. Sorry. Julie: It's okay. Lemme turn you up. Um, so Brian's coming? Bethany: Yeah, he's standing over here.
Julie: Okay. Um, yeah, so I found out some bad news yesterday. I, my daughter has, she had a brain MRI and she's got, it's not deadly, but she's got like a. Called, it's called Chiari one malformation.
And there's, she's been having like constant headaches, visual disturbance, dizziness, all this stuff. And so it's looking like she's probably gonna have to have surgery in her brain and Oh my gosh. I know. And I just found out yesterday, so I'm waiting for the neurologist to call me back. Okay. Um, I've only spoken to her primary doctor and just got the MRI results in my, in her chart.
So I might have to hop off and talk to him.
Bethany: This is a lot to process. Do you wanna reschedule? Like do you feel like you're okay?
Julie: I do. I, I [00:01:00] mean, honestly, like as concerned as I am, and if she does have to have surgery, which it's looking like she will, then I'll be at, you know, next hurdle. But there's, there's this other piece to it that's kind of like, okay, now we at least know, yeah, there's something real that maybe can be fixed because her quality of life is.
You know, I would say significantly compromised. Not seriously compromised, but yeah. You know, she's 16 and she can't do anything physically exerting, um, because she has this constant baseline headache, visual snow, um, and then she
gets migraines on top of the constant headaches. Yeah. And so there is a little bit of relief in knowing that.
You know, there's something, and she probably was born with it. It's like a little, like some extra fluid in this area in the back of her brain. I have a, an image in my mind that they can just [00:02:00] take a needle and drain it out, but likely that's not accurate.
Bethany: You're not a neurologist, so.
Julie: Exactly. So anyway, if he, he probably isn't gonna call in this one hour, but if he does, I'm gonna.
I am gonna, I'm very eager, so
Bethany: completely understand. I'm so sorry that you have to deal with that.
Julie: Yeah, thank you. It's, this is the one too that was in the, you know, hospital when she, she's a twin and she was in the hospital for a few weeks after she was born, and like, she was like, not even five pounds.
It's, it's just like, I know, it's just like, why, why her? You know, she's been through so much so. Parenting, I'm sure you agree, is just a, a lesson in managing fear and anxiety.
Bethany: Very much so.
Julie: You know when your kids aren't driving yet, but wait for that. Wait for that fun time. When you get to light awake, [00:03:00]
Brian: what the thought of it is.
Just super scary. I
Julie: know, I know. I'm like, all right, well let's jump in. How are you guys doing?
Brian: Good.
Julie: Okay. Um, what I'm gonna do today is just go back in with you, Bethany. Bethany: Okay. And
Julie: kind of pick up where we left off. You know, this is kind of, this is good news. We've eased into the phase of the work where we're gonna be spending more time, you know, with each of you alone.
Um, and starting with you Bethany, 'cause you're the more avoidant partner. It just sort always sort of starts like that. Um,
Bethany: isn't that interesting how we went into this thinking? You were the avoidant partner and I was the anxious partner.
Brian: Agreed. But I feel like our track is somewhat the same. Julie: Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And it could be that, you know, it's just what I'm seeing come alive right now where you guys are in the
Bethany: right,
Julie: um, you know, uh, this chapter of your [00:04:00] life. But, um, it's an interesting thing to think about because, you know, at the end of the day, it's all really kind of the same. Emotional blocks mm-hmm.
That just manifest differently. Mm-hmm. So, um, all right. So let's, um, hold on. What's, I'm so frazzled right now. Sorry, what's today? 15. That's okay.
Bethany: Can you, can you hear that squeaking in the background? I don't know if you can hear it or if this is just, I do
Julie: hear it. I don't know. It's not a problem for me, but it might be a problem. Is it the dog?
Bethany: It is,
Brian: yeah. He's come alive this morning. Yeah,
Bethany: he, he busted out his own toy box right before you got back When I was on a call, he like opened up his own toy box. He out the toys that he wanted.
Julie: Oh yeah. No, my dog trust me. My, my dog. So I ha you know, my kids and I, we are like obsessed with our dog.
Um, but my hus, my husband and my [00:05:00] dog are like nemesis. Like they have a love-hate relationship because he's just not an, he didn't grow up with animals, so he is just not an animal person. So my son got me this for
Christmas and now it sits on the mantle in our. Living in our family room, just staring at my husband all night long.
He had an artist. He had an artist. Paint it
Bethany: funny. We have one of Brody, our old, our old boxer. Yeah, Julie: yeah,
Bethany: yeah.
Julie: Was he was. Yeah,
Bethany: Brody was amazing, but we have like a huge picture of Brody with like lyrics to a song that you had made after, after he died. So we, we get it. We get it. Okay.
Julie: Oh, that's so sweet.
Yeah.
Bethany: All right. Well, I think he's done squeaking for right now. All right.
Julie: Let's, let's hop in here. So what, um, you know, I'm, I'm just gonna dive back in Bethany, what, uh. Came up [00:06:00] for you, you know, at our, we, we got to a lot of important places, I think, with you and what's coming up today. Yeah. Did, I mean you, you did some deepest deep work last time and I just kind of wanna check in on that.
Bethany: I mean, I think it felt, it felt good to get all of that out. Um, we've actually had a really good couple days, which is I think the. This is probably the longest duration of no negative cycles. Okay. Um, he probed me the other night in terms of like things he wanted, he asked me to think about, like, he was acting like he was you in some way.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so I've been thinking about those things in the back of my mind, and I don't necessarily have conclusions yet about those, but like blocks or things. He, he thinks there's a block as to why we. It's like affecting our marriage. Mm-hmm. One of the things that he brought up. [00:07:00] But I feel lighter Okay.
Than I have. Um, and I, I feel, I think we successfully navigated what could have been a negative cycle yesterday.
Julie: Oh, tell me about that. I wanna know. Let's talk about what worked.
Bethany: Do you wanna talk or you want me to talk? I, I had a, a chunk of time yesterday at work where I was like, I had maybe 15 minutes.
And mind you, my schedule this week has been insane. I've had to do a lot of difficult, had a lot of difficult conversations with employees this week at work, um mm-hmm. About their future. So that's been, that's been heavy. Um, and he's been very supportive of that, which I, I appreciate and. So I had a long story, I had a chunk of time yesterday where I was like banging out some personal things at work, maybe 15 minutes, like looking at perhaps a place to rent.
Um, and then I, I asked him about a, a question about it, and then I switched my focus to [00:08:00] what is the plan for our baby or for the next couple days, are we staying here? Am I, are we going back? Who's picking her up? Who's doing
this? And like, he just felt like I was. Predating all of these questions and somewhat, not attacking, but like
Brian: accusatory,
Bethany: he took them as an accusatory tone and so, okay.
And he said, now you're gonna leave me hanging because you have meetings till, you know, four 30 and we're not gonna be able to talk about it. I'm like, I actually can call you in a half hour and I'll talk to you in the car as I'm going to my next location. So we did, and I explained to him. He said why he felt that way, and I said, I, mm-hmm.
I hear what you're saying, but I like, and he gave me the opportunity. And right before I called him, I said, I need you to look at this from a different perspective. Like, I like what you had asked him to do, right? Like, mm-hmm. I need you to look at this through a different lens. This wasn't accusatory, this wasn't attacking, this was me truly firing on all cylinders in my head, [00:09:00] banging out a couple personal things in a short amount of time.
So we talked through that and it was really, it was really good. Um, and I think after explaining the emotion behind it or how it actually came to be, he heard all of it and we were good.
Julie: Okay, beautiful. So what?
Brian: But what she, she let me explain myself. Yeah. And not deflect them right. To the point where, oh, it wasn't.
That I wasn't getting heard like it was. Mm-hmm. She's like, oh, I definitely understand why you felt that way, in that sense, instead of, no, that's not what I was saying. No, that's not what I was saying. And it just, it just like felt more organic than it did, like, you know, flared up.
Julie: So, let's, let's just hold there for a minute, right.
You're, you're recognizing right now that feeling heard is kind of a game changer for your nervous system.
Brian: Yeah.
Julie: [00:10:00] Right. And so I just want you to just close your eyes and, and just say those words to me, Brian, and let's just see what happens in your body, which is, wow, I felt really hurt.
Just say it in your mind or say it out loud, whichever you would like. Brian: I felt really heard.
Julie: Yeah.
So what happens in your body, just as you put words to that? Brian: At the time I felt really calm. You know what
Julie: happens just right here and now as you say it. Are you able to stay with it right here and now?
Brian: Yeah, I feel at peace.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
So that's, you know, the reason I'm, I'm having you do this is because. Trying to kind of install the experience in your nervous [00:11:00] system, meaning we're not just talking about it and saying, I felt heard, but I'm helping your body feel
the felt experience of being heard. And I want you to just share with Bethany that when I feel heard, everything in me settles.
Brian: Yeah. When, when, when. You hear me and what I'm saying and my emotions about something, it, it settles me. It calms me that it's, it's us talking, not just you talking or just me talking. It's a, it's a partnership.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. All right. Well. That was just something I just wanted to not miss that opportunity to do that, you know, bit of of somatic [00:12:00] nervous system work. So let's go back in. You know, Bethany, I know that where we left off, you know, the other day was kind of talking about, um, some of the parts of you that sometimes don't believe that you deserve to have your.
Wounds in this relationship and some of the hurts that you have experienced, um, be tended to. Mm-hmm. And I wanna just kind of dive back into that and talk more about that undeserving place. 'cause that's a, that's, that's a pretty big, there's a lot of pain around that, right? Mm-hmm. Not really believing that we deserve,
Bethany: yeah.
Julie: So what comes up just as I say that, or, or you know, if this, if this isn't really a topic that's in your heart, maybe we could talk about what came up for you in the moment when you di guys did go [00:13:00] into this cycle, but you were able to switch, pivot. Um, it's all gonna really kind of go to the same place, so Right.
Wherever you would like to dive in is, is fine with me.
Bethany: Um, I don't know how much that's on my, my heart today, simply because I feel like it, a lot of it came out on Monday. Um, but we, we did talk the other night about, or Monday, it wasn't Monday night. Yeah. About when. He, when I said like the, I made the joke of like the badasses back and, and in, in being assertive and, and my feelings and, and hurts being warranted.
Julie: Sure.
Bethany: He seems to think that there's like something more behind that. Like, you know, I'm, I did all of these things in my life [00:14:00] because like. The one thing that I really wanted at one point was like, you know, to be married and
to have kids and at, at a later age, you know, 33, 34, whatever it was, you know, that I, I wasn't on a trajectory to do that at that point in my life.
So it was like I bought a house, um, I had a really good job, you know, just forging ahead. His thought, and I know it's not about him, but like his thought is like, there's something inside of me that likes that. How did you explain it like that? Um, I can't think of the word you used,
Brian: like reinforcement.
Bethany: Reinforcement. Like, like there's something in me where I need to feel like I'm a, what? It, was it run track like a powerhouse. Almost.
Julie: Okay.
Bethany: I don't necessarily think that's the case. Like strong Julie: or, um, [00:15:00]
Bethany: I'm sorry, what? I didn't hear you
Julie: strong. Is that what you're saying? I'm not sure. Paint me a picture of Powerhouse.
Like what, what does a person who's a powerhouse do and say in the world? Bethany: Maybe you should explain your thought on it and then we can,
Brian: yeah, I mean, when we left the session, you know, that. That assertive comment where she was like, I'm a badass. Mm-hmm. Like, there was so many things sort of attached to it and I, I sort of went back to like, when we first started dating and like her first date, she like accosted the hostess because.
We weren't getting sat quick enough and I was like, you know, who is this, this girl and
Julie: mm-hmm.
Brian: And then like, getting to know her a little bit. Like, you know, she, she likes having like the power in her position at work of like
Julie: mm-hmm.
Brian: In the palm of her [00:16:00] hand and. She had said to me like a couple months ago that like one of her, um, assistants had had to do something and she took pride in like, being polished.
Julie: Okay.
Brian: And, and it's, it's this power game with her, like where. I think it transcends into our relationship. And then like there's, there's this avoidant part about her that like, that like blocks any emotions out from like who she's dealing with at work or in our marriage. And like she doesn't really tell many emotions towards things.
And it's just sort of like. It's like walled off. Like you can't get in, you can't tap into that part of her. [00:17:00] And there's been like T two or th Well, there's, there's been like past relationships with her that, like you, she never talks about whether they're good, they're bad. Um, she erases all of the memories of them, pictures, everything.
It's, it's like they never existed. And then there's a lot of things that we talk about. In her childhood. It's like,
it's really positive stuff, like, you know? Mm-hmm. Like we talked last week about how her parents always protected her from all of this stuff, but there was a really big event in her family life that she has neglected to talk about. It's, it's almost like it's never even happened, and. It's a really big thing, and if I was to do what her father did, [00:18:00] I don't think there would be an opportunity for us to even go to counseling, but mm-hmm.
Like when we come off of how you, you and her both put it on me of like the name calling.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Brian: And how my daughter would feel. Mm-hmm. Or our daughter would feel. Like maybe her father didn't call her mom a name. Mm-hmm. But his actions were far worse, or with, it goes without saying that he called her a name by his actions.
And then I put that back on her to say, well, you were our daughter in that situation and how did you feel about it? And. There's really no emotions
towards it, and I said, I, I feel like there's something about that where I constantly am compared to either my [00:19:00] brother-in-law or my father-in law, and mm-hmm they are put in this positive category constantly and we have a lot like, like very few similarities.
But like if we have drinks, we, us three will have a fun time, but Julie: mm-hmm. If my
Brian: brother and father-in-law have drinks, it's completely fine. But if I have drinks, I'm a no good. SOB, everything's negative around it, and I've never quite understood why. I've always had to be benchmarked against them. And okay, so
Julie: what you're, what you're saying, everything that you're saying makes, makes sense and we do need to get to all of this.
What you're saying is some of this just doesn't really feel fair right here we are talking about how I call her names, but why aren't we talking about, you know, what her. You know, I'm assuming that we're talking about when your dad had an affair, right? Mm-hmm.
Bethany: Okay.
Julie: And so, yeah, I wanna, I do wanna understand more about that.
You know, [00:20:00] it's a, it's kind of a timing issue, right? We wanna deal with both, both our issues that we need to, we need to look at and talk about and do some shifting. But I'm afraid that if we keep going down this road, we're not going to get to the stuff I kind of wanted to get to with Bethany today. Okay.
That's fine. Why I, I wanna know, we're, I'm gonna have to jump on one thing, right? Yep. So, yep. We can't do it all at once. So I really wanna unpack this word, badass, 'cause we started with that. Okay. So help me understand, because what I'm always going to trust is that there's strength in badass and there's also maybe some, some things that we need to shift around badass and I wanna know about both.
Yeah.
Bethany: Okay. He's just, something's at the door. He just, he can still hear. Okay. And maybe that wasn't the right phrase. I feel like at some point in my life I was probably more assertive, more [00:21:00] as, as an independent
female and, and lost some of that assertiveness because Brian and I are both alphas, right?
We're the, we're both the oldest of two siblings. We have a lot of similarities in that way.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Bethany: But I have felt that he's probably alpha one and I'm alpha two, not like equal playing field. Right. And so I think there's been things that have probably happened in our life for whatever reason that have just made it dog Okay.
Go ahead. Is off the rails. Ha ha Has caused me to feel that way. And whether it. My, because maybe my career took a backseat because he's a business owner, he has more things to manage than I do, or I'm not sure how that's all played out. But go ahead. I'll let, I'll let you start probing. Yeah. I'm just
Julie: listening.
I'm just trying to find where, um, where there's an opportunity to get into [00:22:00] some emotions here and I'm not sure where that is just yet, so.
Bethany: And I'm not, I'm not sure either. And I don't know if it was ever one thing that has made me feel that way or if it's been his actions that have made me feel that way, or if it's been,
Julie: how does bad, let me ask you this.
How does Badass show up in the relationship in a way that might not be working here?
Bethany: I don't know if it, if it.
Julie: Does something about this badass part of you. And, and again, it's a, there's so much strength in that part. I don't wanna shame that part whatsoever. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but somehow it's working for you and it's not working for you.
And what is important about this part of yourself for you?
Bethany: I think it's,
Julie: I trust that there's a lot of strength in there.
Bethany: Yeah. And again, I don't love that phrase. It was kind of meant to be like tongue in cheek on Monday where it was like somewhat of a joke. Um, what do you not like about it? [00:23:00] I just think it doesn't sound the best. Right? Like, because I don't, I don't really feel that way, but I, I guess what I meant was like the confident strong, okay, assertive.
Female. All right. So we've got, believe this was where I didn't need to rely on anyone. Okay. Um,
Julie: that's probably
Bethany: let's more than what? It's,
Julie: so you didn't need to rely on anyone,
and then something happened where you started to feel more dependent.
Bethany: I think so, or, or in a marriage, more of a partnership, um, where I wasn't independent anymore. Mm-hmm. Right. We were together. We, we had each other, we were a partnership, and I didn't need to have, or maybe even want to have all of that [00:24:00] independence anymore or be that.
Strong, powerful, independent person anymore because I, I had a partner and we were
Julie: in it together. Okay. So you almost embraced this other side of the coin. What, what do we wanna call that other side that's maybe less competent and less strong or less independent? Mm.
Bethany: Any ideas for words?
Brian: Where you're more dependent.
Bethany: Yeah. What do we wanna call it? I don't know what to call it. Julie: Vulnerable?
Bethany: Um,
Julie: no.
All right. Well, let, let me just ask you this. Um. Does it, does it feel like maybe the pendulum swang a little bit too far and then you kind of lost [00:25:00] these other confident, more strong parts of you and then you started missing that? Or you just lost it and almost didn't realize you lost it?
Bethany: I think maybe all of the above.
Mm-hmm. And thinking about it, um,
because I think.
If we look back at like last week or Monday, I started to put like his needs above mine to make him happy. Mm-hmm. To keep peace, to
not, not value my own hurts. Right. So there's that piece. And so I think that's probably where I lost some of it.
Um, where it was like I just didn't have a voice, [00:26:00] like silly things. I mean, I'm not a, I'm not a decorator, right? I am not good at aesthetics or decorating the house, right? So anything that came to that, like, do you have any input? Well, maybe we should do this. And he was like, no, that's dumb. We're gonna do it this way, or, you know, I wanna remodel the bathroom.
Do you have any input? Or, I wanna do this. And I'm just like, yeah, sure. That like, that's your thing, right. Go and do it. So I, I just knew that one. I really didn't care about it that much. But, um, that's kind of a simple example, but like, that's his strength. Um. You know, what did we want to eat for dinner?
Julie: I mean, what are the, what are the messages?
You know, over time it sounds like at first it was like, no big deal. No big deal, no big deal. But then over time it started to become a little bit more of a big deal.
Bethany: Like my opinion didn't matter.
Julie: Okay, there we go. I wanna, I wanna hold there.
So you, you [00:27:00] started getting messages that your opinion didn't matter.
Bethany: Yeah. In a roundabout way.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Bethany: Maybe not direct, but I think
Julie: Right. He wasn't saying overtly your opinion doesn't matter, but some of the ways that he was showing up were whether it was coming from him or not, you're getting that message.
Your nervous system is picking up that message.
Bethany: Right. My
Julie: doesn't feel like there's a ton of space here for me.
Bethany: Right.
Julie: And then just as you say that, what comes up, just, you know, it did started to feel like my opinion just didn't matter.
Bethany: Um,
Julie: I don't if you could just close your eyes and say, my opinion just doesn't matter to him. There's this and it, and I know this doesn't define you, but we're just talking to this part.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.[00:28:00]
I think maybe empty. 'cause I don't, I don't think it's a sadness. I don't think I ever felt sad about it. Um, it was not, I, I don't recall ever feeling mad. About it. So maybe just kind of empty.
Julie: Okay. And then how do you, um, you know, what do you believe that you role in this was like, what did you do here to maybe contribute to the bigger picture?
Did you just kind of stop standing up for yourself and that kind of reinforced it or?
Bethany: Yeah. I mean,
Julie: mm-hmm.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. [00:29:00]
Bethany: Or,
I'm just trying to think of some examples. He's never one to do anything he doesn't want to do, right? Mm-hmm. So if I really wanted to push about something, mm-hmm. There was always a lot of pushback. So I just stopped pushing.
Julie: You stopped pushing back. Okay. And, and in that stopped pushing back. Where did that, where did that leave you emotionally when you stopped pushing back?
Bethany: In some instances, like a, a alone. Okay. Um, or feeling alone. Okay. Like. I didn't have a partner.
Julie: Okay.[00:30:00]
Okay. So you felt alone and like you didn't have a partner, and that was kind of what happened when you stopped pushing back, but you stopped pushing back because what would happen if you did push back?
Bethany: It would either. Cause an argument. Mm-hmm. Or, um, and some of these are, you know, really small type of examples but, or that, that are coming up for me. But I always felt that if there was something that he wanted to do, right, where like say it's a concert, right. Don't love, necessarily love the music he likes, but I would go to spend time with him.
There would be, or if I wanted to do something but he didn't like the music that I was going to listen to or I wanted to go to listen to, he just wouldn't go. Mm hmm. Like I would do things. I felt I would do things for him because I wanted to be with him or spend time with him, but I didn't feel that that [00:31:00] was reciprocated.
Like I would take one for the team to go listen to music that would potentially make my ears bleed, but he wouldn't do that On the flip side.
Julie: Okay, so you're feeling like, you know, this is the the part where you wanna hear, Hey, I'm willing to go join you in your stuff. And I, you're, you're wanting to hear, Hey, I wanna join you in your stuff too, and you matter to me and your needs matter to me too.
And instead you're getting these messages, it doesn't matter, you're on your own. Right. And then was that like, you know, was there some powerlessness around that loneliness? Like you didn't have any power to. Get yourself back to where you wanted to be.
Bethany: Yeah. I just stopped trying.
Julie: You stopped trying. I just, I just,
Bethany: yeah.
Julie: So eventually the powerlessness became the biggest part where you just don't have any, any power over the situation. You just have to accept it.
Bethany: Right.
Julie: Okay. [00:32:00] And if you didn't just accept it, then you would've just kept fighting and that wasn't really getting anybody anywhere, then he would get, just get mad or, right.
Okay. Okay. And so
I wanna know, you know, there's, there's a.
There's something to be said for just kind of giving up and trying to keep the peace that is, that can be a much better alternative than having a bunch of unmitigated conflict. Right. This is why a lot of the times, one partner starts to fall deeper into avoidance. Mm-hmm. That's one way of balancing out the conflict.
Mm-hmm. That can get to a point. If nobody becomes more avoidant, then what happens? We're just fighting all the time. Mm-hmm. Right. I think we can find a better way. But is there a part [00:33:00] of you, you know, what is this other part of you sometimes feel about the part of you that just kind of gave up and sunk into powerlessness?
Is there some of you that like doesn't like that part? That wish that part didn't, would've done something differently.
Bethany: I think so, but I, I also think in some ways, like my career still allowed me to have that in that space.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Bethany: Um, and then I think too, like when we had our baby together, that kind of gave me some power back in a way.
Okay. Because. I was basically like the, the sole caretaker of her for a large chunk of time where it was like, uh, I'm the one doing [00:34:00] all the work in terms of her, so that was like my power to be had and mm-hmm. There wasn't much that was gonna like come in in between that. Okay.
Julie: So you were getting some of this met in other parts of life. Some of this need to feel a sense of control and power and volition.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: And space.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: But somehow you weren't getting enough of it in the relationship. And then the last few sessions we've had, maybe you've start started to get a little more taste of that.
Because then you say the badass is back.
Bethany: Right, right,
Julie: right. And so what's back when you say the badass is back, it's not what is back. Something is really special and powerful about what's back I,
Bethany: um.
Feeling like I have that place [00:35:00] here with him. Mm-hmm. Again, where I can safely voice my opinions or my thoughts in, or at least here with
you. Okay. Um, or I'm, or heard or my, my opinion matters in some ways or there's validation there. Um.
And at least attempting to feel more. Mm-hmm. Like a team or equals.
Julie: Mm-hmm. So there's a couple layers to this. One is it's just nice to have a sense of volition and have things go your way sometimes. Right. That we all need that. Mm-hmm. Right. But then there's this other piece that does this help you feel better about you, who you are?
Bethany: Yeah, I think so.
Julie: In what way?
Bethany: Um, [00:36:00] I feel I've always been confident, but I think throughout the past few years, like at least in our marriage, I haven't felt that way. So it kind of gives, gives me a little bit of confidence back within our marriage. Okay. I mean, I'm confident in other ways, like outside of here, but
Julie: you want, you also want, if we're just really kind of working with just this part inside of here, right? You've got all this good evidence that there's these other parts of you right outside of here. Um.
What I'm really kind of trying to go for here is how you view yourself differently when you get to go to that confident place in the relationship. Is that a person that you're more proud to be? Do you, do you feel more strong? Do you[00:37:00]
Bethany: Yeah, I think I feel stronger.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
And is feeling strong part of your self-esteem.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
And so what does it do to you in your view of you when you lose that strength, when you lost it for a while and you're, you're finally finding it back? What does that do to your view of yourself?
Bethany: I mean, it, it makes me feel better.
Julie: Mm-hmm. No, I'm talking about better for what, what's the all other, Bethany: um, the alternative to that.
Julie: Yeah.
Bethany: Is that what you're asking? So it
Julie: sounds to me if this makes you feel better, it [00:38:00] offsets something. It's offsetting how bad you felt it about yourself. I mean, again, there's layers and one layer is, it's just feels bad to get, to get messages and believe our partner doesn't really wanna join us.
And but then there's this second layer to it where it actually might affect the way you view yourself. Because something about viewing yourself as a badass, getting some of this drink back is really helping you just as a person.
Bethany: Right? Yeah, I think. I think the alternative that would be feeling weak.
Right.
Julie: And, and then just like, what is it about you in this part that let this happen?
And I'm just speaking to this part of you, right? Yeah. What is it about you that let this happen where [00:39:00] someone else might have stood up and said, no, we're not doing this. Like, this has to shift. I can't live like this. I, this isn't working for me. I gotta know. I have a little more space here.
Bethany: Um, probably
the, the fear of, of. Losing him in some way or losing my marriage in some way where it's just like there's,
um, appeasement is the word that comes to mind.
Julie: Mm-hmm. A lot of this sounds like, you know, there's, again, there, there's so many layers here and I'm just working with one of the layers, but a lot
of this seems to kind of be related to like having your life together competency, right? You know, having doing well in your career.
Right. [00:40:00] And to view yourself as not getting all of that right must be pretty hard because it, it was so important to you that you kinda lost this part of yourself to keep it going.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: That's,
and, and let's say this, this did or does fall apart anyway, right? Let's just say worst case scenario. I wanna know how you're gonna make sense of it as being your flaw.
Bethany: Wait, say that one more time please.
Julie: I'm trying to understand how you're gonna make sense of you Bethany: if my marriage fails.
Julie: Yes.
I mean, it's easy to blame him, right? It's easy to say, well, this is all him. I know my [00:41:00] heart. You know, you've said that, and there's, there's, there's so much truth to that. But I think that there probably is a part that's pretty hard on yourself because when every time you fight for the relationship, you're, you're fighting for the relationship, but you're also fighting for how you view you as a per, as a person.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: What are those tears saying?
Bethany: I think you're probably right, or you are right. Yeah. Um,
yeah, like I'm just used to having it all together. Mm-hmm. And, um, I appreciate that. That's uncomfortable. Thank you. Um. Yeah, I'm used to having it all together and I feel like that would not be having it all together.
Julie: Mm-hmm.[00:42:00]
And what kind of people don't have it all together? Just again, speaking to this part,
Bethany: what kind of people don't have it all together? I'm not sure how to answer that.
Julie: Mm-hmm. Is it like failing people who fail?
Bethany: Um, no. I don't think it's necessarily people who fail reckless. I don't know, reckless is the word either. I, um,
I can't come up with a, with a one. That's a word
Julie: you don't, you don't have to know. That's kind of why we're here is to help put words to this.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Because it's more than just, I'll feel bad about myself. There's something more specific about it. Even more specific than feeling bad. Some people would say, I'd feel like a [00:43:00] loser.
Some people, and, and again, these words don't need to define you, but like, Bethany: yeah, I don't, I don't think losing, it's the same,
Julie: you know, not special, not. Competent, not responsible. Bethany: Um,
I think I would feel a disappointment in myself.
Julie: Okay.
Okay. So again, disa disappointment is a very, is a very good word, but there's, there's something even more specific there, which is disappointed about what.
Bethany: Um,
Julie: that you didn't live up to your potential? That
Bethany: I probably, that I, I didn't live up to my own expectations of what having a marriage and a family [00:44:00] would be. Mm-hmm. Or should be. Should
Julie: be. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, like you failed yourself.
Bethany: Yeah. Or I failed my family.
Julie: You've mentioned you may, you failed yourself or you failed your family. Bethany: Okay.
Julie: I mean, you mentioned just being a little girl dreaming about, you know, your wedding and Right. There's a lot, a lot of, uh, investment for you in how this all worked out.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: You didn't take it lightly.
Bethany: Uhuh,
Julie: Uhuh, and I just want you to close your eyes and just. Really, let's just really dive into the emotional piece here, because it is very much alive, which is there's a part of me that is afraid that I'm just gonna fail myself and fail my family.
If this falls apart,
can you [00:45:00] just close your eyes and see what comes up in this place A failure.
This is the place that you try to run away from. Every time you make yourself small, every time you fight back.
Bethany: I, it's just sadness.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
And the sadness is sad, but in that sadness is a sense of failure.
Bethany: Yeah. Yeah. I,
Julie: and I want you [00:46:00] to share that with Brian, which is, I am carrying around a sense of failure here.
Bethany: I am carrying around a sense of failure
for all of it.
Brian: I know.
Bethany: I think that's why I, I'm just not quitting. I'm not, I'm not just quitting. There aren't many things that I've ever quit.
Julie: I wanna know a little bit more here about how you make sense of what you've done to fail this. What do you believe that you have done that has contributed to the failure that you fear?
Not necessarily the failure that is, but the failure. Failure that you fear? [00:47:00]
Bethany: What have I done?
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Bethany: I mean, I know I, I've hurt him. Okay. I know that, that I wasn't always truthful with him, and that's probably the biggest piece. Mm-hmm.
Julie: Okay. And then, and if we take that a little bit further, what is it about you that wasn't truthful?
Bethany: What is it about me that wasn't truthful?
I think that's a failure part too, in that I wasn't truthful with him because I was. Fearful of losing him if there were, there was to be. If, if I did explain it. Mm hmm.
Julie: Or tell him. Mm-hmm. So, you know, if we really just get clear about this, um, for you, it, [00:48:00] it felt safer to withhold information or lie mm hmm.
Than to face the consequences of being honest with him.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And I wanna know in your mind, right, we can come up with a lot of ways to explain that, but usually people who, who you know, do things that they're not happy with have sometimes they have some shame around that
Bethany: for sure.
Julie: And I wanna know what that shame tells you about you, that you chose dishonesty.
We need to get some words to this. Mm-hmm.
What kind of people choose dishonesty
in your mind?
Bethany: Um.[00:49:00]
Not people who I feel like are, are like-minded to me, or not like-minded, but comparable to, to, to me. So, yeah.
Julie: To the way you would like to view yourself,
Bethany: right?
Julie: Yeah. And, and what is that way? What is like-minded, Bethany: I guess? Um.
Julie: Um, values, morals. I'm just, yeah, that's, that's it. I was like, I
Bethany: was, in my head I was trying to think of awful people I know who have like, got in trouble for big things, like mm-hmm. Ling money [00:50:00] and whatever. So yeah, like values, morals.
Julie: Okay.
So is there a part of you that maybe believes that these failings takes away some of your identity as a, a person of values and integrity?
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay.
And then what's that like for you when you allow yourself to go there to, you know, maybe like defining yourself by that, defining yourself by these,
Bethany: it's embarrassing. I mean, it's kind of embarrassing. Julie: Sure,
yeah. What comes up is you say that you, you're tearing up now. Um, it's just kind of old there. How often [00:51:00] do you talk about this? Never. Yeah. This is a painful place. I can tell because your face is showing me that pain, and this is the place you don't wanna go. And it's so healthy to put some words here.
Bethany: Right, right.
Julie: Embarrassed of yourself. It's
Bethany: a, it's a flaw, right? It's a flaw.
Julie: Yeah,
so it's, it's almost like this place starts to say, maybe there is just something about me that's flaw.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Okay. And that's the place you try to hide from.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. [00:52:00] And I want you to just share that with Brian, that I do try to hide from this place where I believe that maybe I'm just flawed. This part, it doesn't have to define you, but this part is there.
Bethany: I hide from this place because it's, it's a, it's a flaw.
It doesn't, it doesn't define me. Um, it's a part or a small part, but yeah, I hide from it.
Julie: How does it feel to just put some words to that? I.
Instead of just holding it in and always kind of trying to run away from this part. Bethany: Um,[00:53:00]
sometimes relieving.
Julie: Mm-hmm. This is part of being human, right? It's having these problems. None of us are perfect. We all do bad things,
Bethany: right?
Julie: We all do bad things when we're trying to get our needs met. Right. That doesn't make it okay, but. It is really healthy and important to put some words to it.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Julie: So you don't have to keep trying to hide it.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: And Brian, how does this hit your heart to hear her sharing some of this with you?
Brian: It feels very validating.
Bethany: Mm-hmm.
Brian: It's like, it's like on the,
a lot of these emotions are on the tip of your tongue, but until you go back deeper to the root of them, it feels [00:54:00] good to hear, you know her.
Sort of like quit lying to herself or mm-hmm. To me and just be level with me. Yeah.
Truthful to me.
Julie: And then, and then how does that, you know, in your body, just if, if we kinda shift back into the body like. You are used, you guys are used to talking about these wounds in a way that leaves you feeling really dysregulated. Right
now we're talking about these wounds in a way that what does this do differently inside of you?
I notice you put your arm around her. Your, your, your body is, is more angled toward her right now.
Brian: Yeah.
There were, there were a lot of thoughts blazing through my head [00:55:00] as you were doing this and um,
I somewhat know this about you.
Julie: So it's not the information, it's about the fact that she's sharing it with you, that we're having a new kind of conversation around it.
Brian: Yeah.
I dunno what to say.
Julie: All right. Well, I'm gonna, I, I'm just gonna gently try to kind of. Bring to life. What I feel is important, which is
what I need to happen for you guys to heal from these wounds, is [00:56:00] to have new, successful, positive experiences around talking about them, the different layers of the wound. And so what you're used to doing When you talk about these wounds or any of the themes around the wounds or anything sort of related to it, the shame, all the, all the stuff, right.
You're used to going into negative cycles and then you just don't get anywhere. And that leaves your bodies feeling protective mode, defensive mode,
explaining mode, all these fight places that you go to. And so I wanna really kind of understand is your nervous system having a different experience right now around the same topic?
And if the answer's no, that's good information. But if the answer's yes, I wanna just take a moment with that.
Brian: For me. Yeah.
Bethany: Okay.
Brian: If, if she can exhibit the ability to be vulnerable like this mm-hmm. In these situations, then [00:57:00] we don't have to dance around it. We don't have to lie about it. We can just be truthful about it.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Okay. So what you're telling me is when I get that vulnerability around this. Something inside of me starts to feel more peaceful and settled.
Bethany: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. And that's, that's the healing, you know, but two or three sessions ago, that's what we were going for is you were, you guys were saying, gosh, we need to heal this.
We need to heal this. And this is the work around that. It's not, doesn't mean it's complete, but this is what it feels like to heal, is to be able to talk about it without. You know, going into negative cycles and even going into positive cycles where we feel closer. 'cause we can all relate to this stuff, right?
Yeah. To making mistakes and going into shame and blah, blah, blah. So, all [00:58:00] right. I better, I better hop off or today. How are you doing, Bethany?
Bethany: I'm fine.
Julie: Okay. One, one thing I noticed is he reaches to you, we can stop the recording. I'm not.

RepairNegative CyclesCommunication

Julie Menanno MA, LMFT, LCPC

Julie Menanno, MA is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, and Relationship Coach. Julie operates a clinical therapy practice in Bozeman, Montana, and leads a global relationship coaching practice with a team of trained coaches. She is an expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for Couples and specializes in attachment issues within relationships.

Julie is the author of the best-selling book Secure Love, published by Simon and Schuster in January 2024. She provides relationship insights to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and hosts The Secure Love Podcast, where she shares real-time couples coaching sessions to help listeners navigate relational challenges. Julie also hosts a bi-weekly discussion group on relationship and self-help topics. A sought-after public speaker and podcast guest, Julie is dedicated to helping individuals and couples foster secure, fulfilling relationships.

Julie lives in Bozeman, Montana, with her husband of 25 years, their six children, and their beloved dog. In her free time, she enjoys hiking, skiing, Pilates, reading psychology books, and studying Italian.

https://www.thesecurerelationship.com/

Session 14: Moving Towards a Positive Cycle

In this episode

Key takeaways

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Mapping Your Negative Cycle

Secure Love

The Secure Love Club

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Session 15: Healing the Wound of "Not Mattering"

Session 13: From Bad Guy to Bad A**: The Avoidant Partner Reclaims Her Voice